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Thread: Why should it matter not to believe in God?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Let's say I watch you through some binoculars choose between either giving a street person some money or not (or whatever) and travel back in time with that knowledge. Have I somehow removed your freedom to make that choice?
    If you travel back in time (and end up in the same continuum - i.e. one where I make the same choice) then that shows I didn't make a choice.
    You haven't removed my choice - the fact that knowledge of the future is possible (if it actually is) means that the future is fixed. If it's fixed then there is no choice possible.
    Do you ever sit there for a moment and wonder will I or won't I reply to this post? See there is a choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is the shape of a duck's egg? Did the duck have to know how to calculate Pi to lay the egg?
    Could you address the points made rather than haring off at tangents?
    Pi occurs naturally: the duck doesn't have know maths.
    Show me a naturally occurring Pi?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Let's say I watch you through some binoculars choose between either giving a street person some money or not (or whatever) and travel back in time with that knowledge. Have I somehow removed your freedom to make that choice?
    If you travel back in time (and end up in the same continuum - i.e. one where I make the same choice) then that shows I didn't make a choice.
    You haven't removed my choice - the fact that knowledge of the future is possible (if it actually is) means that the future is fixed. If it's fixed then there is no choice possible.
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature?

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob
    Do you ever sit there for a moment and wonder will I or won't I reply to this post? See there is a choice.
    A sufficiently complicated robot could make the same choice. The issue isn't about whether choice exists, it is about whether free choice exists.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  4. #104  
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    Could you address the points made rather than haring off at tangents?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Show me a naturally occurring Pi?
    FFS, get an education.
    Here's one that's nothing to do with circles, perhaps in your case it should be called Buffoon's needle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature
    I'd say so.

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?
    Depends: are they random? Or are they simply consequences of each possible "choice" being taken, each of them spawning new universes at every possible cusp?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    That's the big question.
    I could avoid by saying that no randomness definitely means no free will (of necessity) but the existence of randomness may imply free will. Or just mean that we don't actually choose so much as randomly select from options and (probably) justify that selection afterwards. Is that choice or also not "free" will?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you ever sit there for a moment and wonder will I or won't I reply to this post? See there is a choice.
    Arrant nonsense.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Let's say I watch you through some binoculars choose between either giving a street person some money or not (or whatever) and travel back in time with that knowledge. Have I somehow removed your freedom to make that choice?
    If you travel back in time (and end up in the same continuum - i.e. one where I make the same choice) then that shows I didn't make a choice.
    You haven't removed my choice - the fact that knowledge of the future is possible (if it actually is) means that the future is fixed. If it's fixed then there is no choice possible.
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature?

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    To make a decision I let my body tell me. My body is a whole bunch of chemicals, so I think "how will this post be received?" If my body goes defensive I don't post it. My mind writes it, but I get my body to choose whether to send it or not, for it is my body that suffers if I make the wrong choice. I find I am bodily offended, and troubled in my body when and if I'm banned.
    It would be like taking on an opponent, it's not your mind that gets hurt but your body. Your mind wants to fight but your body says "no, don't be stupid", and it is then a matter of making the choice. Body or Mind? Is it worth the hiding?
    Does that make sense to you guys?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you ever sit there for a moment and wonder will I or won't I reply to this post? See there is a choice.
    Arrant nonsense.
    Were you compelled to make that response? Did you have no options at all?
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  9. #109  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature
    I'd say so.

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?
    Depends: are they random? Or are they simply consequences of each possible "choice" being taken, each of them spawning new universes at every possible cusp?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    That's the big question.
    I could avoid by saying that no randomness definitely means no free will (of necessity) but the existence of randomness may imply free will. Or just mean that we don't actually choose so much as randomly select from options and (probably) justify that selection afterwards. Is that choice or also not "free" will?
    Big question indeed and to me the answer inevitably is not free will.

    If the choice to be made is truly random, then it would have to depend on the outcome of some random quantum event somewhere in our brains, no? Which would mean we have zero control over it. If it wasn't random, then the choice would depend entirely on the current state of the brain at that moment, i.e. at any given time and given a particular brain state, we could only ever make one choice.

    That doesn't leave any room for true free will in the way people think about it.

    Looking at it in this way is definitely reductionist, while others might feel that the whole contains something greater than the sum of the parts. But what that is supposed to be and how it should negate the reductionist view is beyond me and beyond anyone else as far as I have seen.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Were you compelled to make that response? Did you have no options at all?
    Compulsion has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Nothing.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Could you address the points made rather than haring off at tangents?


    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Show me a naturally occurring Pi?
    FFS, get an education.
    Here's one that's nothing to do with circles, perhaps in your case it should be called Buffoon's needle.
    It states in the link " approximating the number π." It only approximates Pi. Nature approximates Pi, it doesn't take it to 30 million digits of accuracy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Were you compelled to make that response? Did you have no options at all?
    Compulsion has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Nothing.
    So did you choose to reply?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robittybob1 View Post
    it states in the link " approximating the number π." it only approximates pi. Nature approximates pi, it doesn't take it to 30 million digits of accuracy
    Are you insulting my religious beliefs!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    It states in the link " approximating the number π."

    Maybe because no one's bothered to run it through sufficient iterations to get 30 million digits of accuracy.

    It only approximates Pi. Nature approximates Pi, it doesn't take it to 30 million digits of accuracy
    Wrong.
    Nature defines pi. We are the ones that approximate it.
    Since pi is transcendental we can't do anything other than approximate it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So did you choose to reply?
    Unknown.
    And you appear (as usual) to be missing the point. Entirely.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    So did you choose to reply?
    Unknown.
    And you appear (as usual) to be missing the point. Entirely.
    I chose to reply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I chose to reply.
    Supposition.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I chose to reply.
    Supposition.
    As much of a supposition as to call it a supposition. You don't know the processes in my mind, but you seem to suppose you do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    As much of a supposition as to call it a supposition. You don't know the processes in my mind, but you seem to suppose you do.
    You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?
    It's because no one knows the entirety of the processes involved that makes it a supposition on your part to say that you chose.
    Your choice could well be fixed (pre-ordained) due to all previous experiences and those processes in your brain/ mind.
    You have no way of knowing.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    As much of a supposition as to call it a supposition. You don't know the processes in my mind, but you seem to suppose you do.
    You really have no idea what you're talking about do you?
    It's because no one knows the entirety of the processes involved that makes it a supposition on your part to say that you chose.
    Your choice could well be fixed (pre-ordained) due to all previous experiences and those processes in your brain/ mind.
    You have no way of knowing.
    That is BS. We aren't built like that. You are preordained not to respond to this one!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is BS. We aren't built like that.
    Supposition again.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    That is BS. We aren't built like that.
    Supposition again.
    You went against you pre-ordination! You must have freewill.
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    You're back to talking utter bollocks again.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    I couldn't decide whether to reply to this thread or not.

    So I flipped a coin.

    My Free Will let me decide to flip the coin, but whether or not I replied was determined by the coin's result.
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    What was the circumference of the coin?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    What is the shape of a duck's egg? Did the duck have to know how to calculate Pi to lay the egg?
    Could you address the points made rather than haring off at tangents?
    Pi occurs naturally: the duck doesn't have know maths.
    Thank goodness or things could get messy!
    Robittybob1 likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    What was the circumference of the coin?
    It was about three and a bit times the diameter of it.

    I was going to measure it exactly but it would have taken me all of eternity to narrow down the decimal places...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I couldn't decide whether to reply to this thread or not.

    So I flipped a coin.

    My Free Will let me decide to flip the coin, but whether or not I replied was determined by the coin's result.
    Flipping the coin is only half of the problem, the decision had to be made; was it heads or tails to post? Then did you secretly change your mind when the coin's outcome was unfavorable?
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  29. #129  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I couldn't decide whether to reply to this thread or not.

    So I flipped a coin.

    My Free Will let me decide to flip the coin, but whether or not I replied was determined by the coin's result.
    Flipping the coin is only half of the problem, the decision had to be made; was it heads or tails to post? Then did you secretly change your mind when the coin's outcome was unfavorable?
    Heads I post, tails I don't.

    Yesterday it was tails, today it was heads.
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    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    *LOL*

    Sorry, I meant that yesterday I flipped a coin and it came up tails, so I didn't post in this thread yesterday.

    Today when I flipped the coin again, it came up heads this time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    *LOL*

    Sorry, I meant that yesterday I flipped a coin and it came up tails, so I didn't post in this thread yesterday.

    Today when I flipped the coin again, it came up heads this time.
    chuckle....I stick to my statement, buddy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Edit: I see now you did in fact credit Dr. Mirus. My sincere apologies. -> Why should it matter not to believe in God?
    I am not apologising
    I don't think it is clear that the text is quoted from that source. Things like an explicit statement that it was someone else's words, quotation marks or quote tags, and a link would have been a good idea.
    Last edited by Strange; November 21st, 2013 at 06:58 AM. Reason: spulling
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
    Were they circular? Did you check if their circumferences was Pi times their diameters? If it wasn't they were not well made Pies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
    Were they circular? Did you check if their circumferences was Pi times their diameters? If it wasn't they were not well made Pies.
    GLARE!! ..they were in glass pans.....I didn't HAVE t measure them and none was left.....THAT is PIE my dear. NONE LEFT and seconds by all!!... So don't give me no more guff about PIE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
    Were they circular? Did you check if their circumferences was Pi times their diameters? If it wasn't they were not well made Pies.
    GLARE!! ..they were in glass pans.....I didn't HAVE t measure them and none was left.....THAT is PIE my dear. NONE LEFT and seconds by all!!... So don't give me no more guff about PIE!
    What square pies!
    I want a piece of the pie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
    Were they circular? Did you check if their circumferences was Pi times their diameters? If it wasn't they were not well made Pies.
    GLARE!! ..they were in glass pans.....I didn't HAVE t measure them and none was left.....THAT is PIE my dear. NONE LEFT and seconds by all!!... So don't give me no more guff about PIE!
    What square pies!
    I want a piece of the pie.
    That would be impossible. IN science even. I cannot ship a pie over without it going bad. There is no scientific way. I am sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Don't you think I learn from my mistakes?
    And no, I don't.

    You strike me as a sexual predator only concerned about his next fix.
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You strike me as sexual predator only concerned about his next fix.
    His comments to babe are a bit creepy, aren't they...
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  44. #144  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Being an atheist in not clear cut, and not for or a theist or an agnostic either.
    Do clarify what you meant by "not clear cut".
    I find many interpretations of atheism, just as there are many interpretations of theism.
    Hard atheists might believe that all theists are fools. But the evidence must match the theory.
    Hard atheism:
    All theists are fools because they believe in God. (False).
    All atheists are not fools because they don't believe in God. (False).
    Soft atheism:
    There is probably no God.
    Theists are simply deluded.
    So you are saying that there are variations in both atheistic and theistic stances. This is not news to anyone to be honest. Monotheists do hold an atheistic stance with regards to other deities from other belief systems. Also, why do you use god (singular) instead of gods (plural)? Do you hold the view that an atheistic stance is directed at a singular deity alone?

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What is atheism anyway? Is it a belief, a faith, a theory, a philosophy?
    Have you tried a dictionary? Honestly, the answer is fairly straightforward, and it is not any of the four you have given.

    atheism: definition of atheism in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Russell was probably an atheist, and he answered a question to his own satisfaction with his essay 'Why I am not a Christian'. It even got him out of trouble with the law.
    Books on atheism are very entertaining, but so are some books in the Bible (Genesis, Daniel, Psalms, Revelation). The neo atheists - Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris (sounding like a firm of accountants) apply reason and logic to almost prove there is no God up there. But they can't.
    I do not really favor books of these nature because most if not all of them contain the Only Orange is a Fruit fallacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    In my view the terms theist, atheist, and agnostic should now be considered redundant, and they should be replaced by the terms deism and adeism.
    Why deism? Are you not aware that a deistic stance holds the view that only one deity exists, instead of withholding conclusion that there may be more than one? Now, I'm not saying that there is or isn't more than one. I'm asking how does one conclude on the number of these supposed entities when there are so many claimed to exist in history?


    Will any of the many scientific disciplines be injected into this thread of yours any time soon, because I have yet to see any.
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  45. #145  
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    From 'skoobydoo1'

    atheism: definition of atheism in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)



    Will any of the many scientific disciplines be injected into this thread of yours any time soon, because I have yet to see any.[/QUOTE]

    Do I see a challenge ? I would answer that with... 'No God has yet to be found as a reality.' Why it matters is just that I hold a view that children should be given the tools to learn and that religious doctrines seem to dampen the inquiring mind.
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  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Don't you think I learn from my mistakes?
    And no, I don't.

    You strike me as a sexual predator only concerned about his next fix.
    That's a bit rough. I've been chatting to "babe" for the last month, I wonder if she agrees with that?
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  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Sheesh.......insipid men! Make up a formula and STICK to it!
    Why are you saying this Babe? Have you had a bad day?
    I think Daecon understood the humor! *S*.......
    Does Pi come to you naturally too Babe?
    Yes I make a mean blackberry, apple and peach pi.....oops PIE!
    Were they circular? Did you check if their circumferences was Pi times their diameters? If it wasn't they were not well made Pies.
    GLARE!! ..they were in glass pans.....I didn't HAVE t measure them and none was left.....THAT is PIE my dear. NONE LEFT and seconds by all!!... So don't give me no more guff about PIE!
    What square pies!
    I want a piece of the pie.
    That would be impossible. IN science even. I cannot ship a pie over without it going bad. There is no scientific way. I am sorry.
    Haven't you heard of refrigeration? Frozen products are sent all over the World. Maybe Border Control would be your biggest problem. They might confiscate it and destroy it slice by slice calculating the nth decimal digit of Pi as they do it.
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  48. #148  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    atheism: definition of atheism in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

    ...

    Will any of the many scientific disciplines be injected into this thread of yours any time soon, because I have yet to see any.
    Do I see a challenge ? I would answer that with... 'No God has yet to be found as a reality.' Why it matters is just that I hold a view that children should be given the tools to learn and that religious doctrines seem to dampen the inquiring mind.
    May I ask what challenge or question of mine is your answer directed at?
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  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature
    I'd say so.

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?
    Depends: are they random? Or are they simply consequences of each possible "choice" being taken, each of them spawning new universes at every possible cusp?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    That's the big question.
    I could avoid by saying that no randomness definitely means no free will (of necessity) but the existence of randomness may imply free will. Or just mean that we don't actually choose so much as randomly select from options and (probably) justify that selection afterwards. Is that choice or also not "free" will?
    Big question indeed and to me the answer inevitably is not free will.

    If the choice to be made is truly random, then it would have to depend on the outcome of some random quantum event somewhere in our brains, no? Which would mean we have zero control over it. If it wasn't random, then the choice would depend entirely on the current state of the brain at that moment, i.e. at any given time and given a particular brain state, we could only ever make one choice.

    That doesn't leave any room for true free will in the way people think about it.

    Looking at it in this way is definitely reductionist, while others might feel that the whole contains something greater than the sum of the parts. But what that is supposed to be and how it should negate the reductionist view is beyond me and beyond anyone else as far as I have seen.
    I would love to hear people's opinions about this.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  50. #150  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    atheism: definition of atheism in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

    ...

    Will any of the many scientific disciplines be injected into this thread of yours any time soon, because I have yet to see any.
    Do I see a challenge ? I would answer that with... 'No God has yet to be found as a reality.' Why it matters is just that I hold a view that children should be given the tools to learn and that religious doctrines seem to dampen the inquiring mind.
    May I ask what challenge or question of mine is your answer directed at?
    We need to be careful with the quote feature.. I was mistaken in that It was the OX that said what I have issue with and for this I will withdraw without any intent to cast a shadow upon your greatness any coment unintended... Oops.
    Look what has happened to the quoted prose of post #147. I think we might need to rethink quoting the whole thread at each posting a, ? ~ and do not quote me.... I tend to talk rubbish. Thankyou.
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  51. #151  
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    ~ as of this subject and what or why it has any foothold of 'Free Will' and of my opinion. I am supportive of the free will view simply because I can not equate that a entity unknown is actually in control of anything. Good argument can be shown. that it might not be so. I have free will but must add that nothing is really free. There is always a cost. Might that cost be as energies spent or resource used. That will is the want to act or place in motion. The want to make a option of action to be taken or acted on.. Free Will is real in my reality. If you can not see free will I see control of actions and limitations of choice. I do not see any Gods. As a freedom of choice and thus free will is alive and well.
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  52. #152  
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    ''Free will'' is aka making a choice, good or bad. We make choices everyday. Must religion hijack the concept of 'choice,' and make it about something spiritual? The ability to make a choice, if you want to call it free will, lol Ok. It has nothing to do with science. It has nothing to do with math. It has to do with the ability to make a choice, through reason and weighing one's options. 'Free will' tends to be what religious people say (I used to be one, so I know) when people commit heinous acts. (think 9/11) ''Where was God during 9/11?'' Oh, well...you know...he gave everyone...FREE WILL. Oh, but if someone makes it through a surgery without any problems? That was God. (not the brilliant surgeon) It's religion's convenient way of giving God a 'get out of jail free card,' because it's too difficult to explain why the world is so messed up, when God is supposedly 'in charge' looking out for everyone and every thing. (If something good happens to you though, you better thank God) But, if something bad happens...it's all your fault! (or someone else's because of his/her 'free will') Even as a Christian, I hated the whole concept of ''free will,'' because it seemed like a cop out when trying to explain my faith to atheists.
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  53. #153  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    It has nothing to do with science.
    Er, since life has "something to do with science", and our existence, how do you work that out?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  54. #154  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    It has nothing to do with science.
    Er, since life has "something to do with science", and our existence, how do you work that out?
    ''Free will'' while it isn't confined to a religious meaning or definition, it is 'mainly' a concept we hear about when discussing religion. Synonymous with ''choice'', then it traces back to science. Hope that better clarifies my point.
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    I can see where my wording became confusing, sorry. My science/math comments had to do with 'free will' in terms of religion. (as it's mainly discussed in that realm) Do atheists go around saying...''I used my free will today to quit my job!'' lol No. They don't. They use the term 'choice.' The problem I have with religion hijacking the term choice, and making it about your soul (free will)...is that it tries to put a scientific spin on it. Free will is often a concept in religion closely related to the formation of one's conscience, and that is closely related to the concept of a soul...which has no basis in science. That, is what I meant.
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  56. #156  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    It has nothing to do with science.
    Er, since life has "something to do with science", and our existence, how do you work that out?
    Do we have free will Dywyddyr?
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  57. #157  
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    It would seem that only the truly insane have free will.
    We have been programed by our genetics and culture to have a limited number of responses to any stimulus.
    Free will is a fantasy.

    dywyddyr may have free will, or not
    kinda like schrodinger's cat
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    It would seem that only the truly insane have free will.
    We have been programed by our genetics and culture to have a limited number of responses to any stimulus.
    Free will is a fantasy.

    dywyddyr may have free will, or not
    kinda like schrodinger's cat
    Are you saying it is a 50:50 chance that Dywyddyr is insane?
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    This YouTube has convinced me of something. To make a conscious decision your brain is weighing up a lot of subconscious information before you are aware of the choice you will make. I think you can add a frustrator over that though. You could determine before hand, whatever you decide you will then override it and do the opposite. And maybe that leads to insanity when you always do the opposite of your subconscious decisions.

    "Neuroscience and Free Will"
    http://youtu.be/N6S9OidmNZM
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  60. #160  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You strike me as sexual predator only concerned about his next fix.
    His comments to babe are a bit creepy, aren't they...
    Not really. If they bothered me, I would tell him. I have a lot of guy friends. Thanks for the concern.
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    I know a person (and I have said this in another thread) that absolutely believes in pre-determination. I find it nonsense. I believe (sorry guys, it's training) that we have a great deal of choices and we make them, and we are RESPONSIBLE for them!
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  62. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do we have free will Dywyddyr?
    I have no idea.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do we have free will Dywyddyr?
    I have no idea.
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
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  64. #164  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    You sort of gave me the right answer. I was thinking from that YouTube I linked today there is a lot of subconscious programming involved in decision making. It is based on your memories, instincts and things learned, but processed largely in the unconscious level, but in the end you know what you want to do, but after that I find there seems to be another level, and that is taking into account what others think. That part does not seem to be involved in the subconscious for me, but I have to consciously add it to my decision.
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  66. #166  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature
    I'd say so.

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?
    Depends: are they random? Or are they simply consequences of each possible "choice" being taken, each of them spawning new universes at every possible cusp?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    That's the big question.
    I could avoid by saying that no randomness definitely means no free will (of necessity) but the existence of randomness may imply free will. Or just mean that we don't actually choose so much as randomly select from options and (probably) justify that selection afterwards. Is that choice or also not "free" will?
    Big question indeed and to me the answer inevitably is not free will.

    If the choice to be made is truly random, then it would have to depend on the outcome of some random quantum event somewhere in our brains, no? Which would mean we have zero control over it. If it wasn't random, then the choice would depend entirely on the current state of the brain at that moment, i.e. at any given time and given a particular brain state, we could only ever make one choice.

    That doesn't leave any room for true free will in the way people think about it.

    Looking at it in this way is definitely reductionist, while others might feel that the whole contains something greater than the sum of the parts. But what that is supposed to be and how it should negate the reductionist view is beyond me and beyond anyone else as far as I have seen.
    I would love to hear people's opinions about this.
    Hey KALSTER, I'd like to respond to this.

    Here is how I look at the question of Free Will:

    Almost everything I have ever learned when it comes to two opposing paradigms is this: It isn't just one or the other, it's almost always a bit of both at the same time. For free will, I'd like you to consider the following:

    You are thirsty, so you go to your refrigerator to find something to drink. You open the refrigerator and see that you have a carton of milk, and a carton of orange juice. You select one of them and drink it. Supposing you went back in time over and over again to observe your decision as an objective party. Everytime you choose the orange juice.

    Those who argue that everything is deterministic would argue that you select the orange juice because it has nutrients which you have depleted to some extent, and so you choose the orange juice everytime because you are inclined to select it.

    Those who argue for free will would suggest you merely select the orange juice because it's simply what you want to drink, and because it's what you want to drink, you will select it everytime.

    Here's my thinking: You select the orange juice out of free will, but the fact that you had to make a decision was deterministic and beyond your control. I don't buy that someone would drink the orange juice because they can feel that they are depleted of vitamins/minerals/nutrients. I think they selected orange juice because they were thirsty, and decided to select orange juice. In reality, what prompted the need to make a decision was thirst... If the world was deterministic, why wouldn't one just drink a glass of water instead of the orange juice? Herein lay the question of Free Will vs. Determinism.

    If you are selecting orange juice because your body requires the nutrients... Surely people that are anemic have a natural craving for iron - but can we say with certainty that this is the case? If the world is deterministic in this way, shouldn't we be able to infer the source of a lot of the decisions we make? If somebody is busy developling cancer, in a deterministic world, they should have a natural inclination to consume foods that obliterate free radical agents. I don't know if they actually do, and I don't think anyone has ever paid any attention to how peoples' diets shift when they have proto-stages of cancers... But I don't think their regular diets would be influenced at all. Consider smoking as well: Do people quit smoking because of some deterministic reason? Well, in theory, no-one should be smoking if the world was deterministic - because while it may feel good, it does all sorts of bad at the cellular level. Surely that should have more influence than a mere addiction if the world is deterministic, should it not? I mean, this is all with the assumption that you select orange juice simply because it has nutrients that make you inclined to select orange juice over milk. Determinism sets a weird precedent for every other action and reaction that takes place in your life, and I don't think it's as simple as one or the other.

    That's why I'm inclined to think that it's a bit of both. You can't control the situations you find yourself in, but you are afforded the room to make decisions based solely on your own volition.
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  67. #167  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
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    The brain continues to evaluate all things even when sleeping. I most certainly experience free will constantly while awake and even when sleeping.. Having the ability to recall and pigeon hole as required is a learned skill. I can not know of what I dream if I do not remember it. I have noted that some control of dream events seems a reality. It might not be so. How my mind actually works is a unknown, but that it does gives me the chance while adopting a free will to make choices.. those are mine and only I am responsible for.. I do not pass the buck. God does not control my destiny, I do. Now of this subject...
    ~ 'Why does it matter ?; Because false indoctrinated mythological untruths will clutter the minds of those whom do not challenge and test all they are instructed. I watched a Dawkings U tube bit where and he was horrified at the attitude of teachers. These were science teachers and the were not seeing it as there job to teach over a religiously held view. Shameful nonsense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
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  71. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
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  72. #172  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    You sort of gave me the right answer.
    Really?
    The "right answer"?
    And what exactly IS the "right answer" and how do you know it's right?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  73. #173  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
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  74. #174  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
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  75. #175  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I have written a monologue based on a book, and performed it, yes. Was it well received? Yes. Learning 5 pages of dialogue however is the pits.

    I can honestly say I have never received a bad review.
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  76. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I have written a monologue based on a book, and performed it, yes. Was it well received? Yes. Learning 5 pages of dialogue however is the pits.

    I can honestly say I have never received a bad review.
    No that definitely can't be easy, and i know I could never do it myself. In real life I'm quite shy but on the forums i can be aggressive (dominant? so i think).
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  77. #177  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I have written a monologue based on a book, and performed it, yes. Was it well received? Yes. Learning 5 pages of dialogue however is the pits.

    I can honestly say I have never received a bad review.
    No that definitely can't be easy, and i know I could never do it myself. In real life I'm quite shy but on the forums i can be aggressive (dominant? so i think).
    This is where you need to be more humble.....others can help and teach you in the areas of science you are not familiar with, but they can't if you keep beating their heads into the ground and not listening. Questions are a good thing, but LISTENING and learning from the answers are also. It is easy to be all bravado on the internet. I prefer to stay true to me. I listen in real life. It is part of my job. I can ask a question, however, in the end, it is the director's call, whether I agreed with him or not. Period. 99.9% they gave me a lot of free rein, but I listened to their wisdom also.

    You are an intelligent man. However, you need to learn how to listen and learn. *smile* no offense intended.

    There is no shame in being wrong.

    There is in not admitting it.
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  78. #178  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Makes sense. So the concept of free will, for you, hinges on the existence of true randomness in nature
    I'd say so.

    What about if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics were true? Would the existence of a being capable of traversing time and alternate realities still negate free will? Or would the existence of both realities still negate free will?
    Depends: are they random? Or are they simply consequences of each possible "choice" being taken, each of them spawning new universes at every possible cusp?

    Then finally, how does true randomness allow for free will? It is not as if our minds are somehow independent from nature. I have always had trouble figuring out why randomness suddenly allows free will.
    That's the big question.
    I could avoid by saying that no randomness definitely means no free will (of necessity) but the existence of randomness may imply free will. Or just mean that we don't actually choose so much as randomly select from options and (probably) justify that selection afterwards. Is that choice or also not "free" will?
    Big question indeed and to me the answer inevitably is not free will.

    If the choice to be made is truly random, then it would have to depend on the outcome of some random quantum event somewhere in our brains, no? Which would mean we have zero control over it. If it wasn't random, then the choice would depend entirely on the current state of the brain at that moment, i.e. at any given time and given a particular brain state, we could only ever make one choice.

    That doesn't leave any room for true free will in the way people think about it.

    Looking at it in this way is definitely reductionist, while others might feel that the whole contains something greater than the sum of the parts. But what that is supposed to be and how it should negate the reductionist view is beyond me and beyond anyone else as far as I have seen.
    I would love to hear people's opinions about this.
    I had to trace the conversation you had with Dywyddyr all the way back to how this started, and it appears that it comes down to the attribute you, he, and perhaps everyone assign to a/more creator type deities; that is Omniscience. May I ask how & why is this attribute given to an or more entities of that nature?

    If omniscience and beings that are omniscient exists, they themselves do not possess free will either because they know what decisions they will make, what (in)actions they will (not) take. Can creator type deities without the attribute of omniscience exists?
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  79. #179  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I have written a monologue based on a book, and performed it, yes. Was it well received? Yes. Learning 5 pages of dialogue however is the pits.

    I can honestly say I have never received a bad review.
    No that definitely can't be easy, and i know I could never do it myself. In real life I'm quite shy but on the forums i can be aggressive (dominant? so i think).
    This is where you need to be more humble.....others can help and teach you in the areas of science you are not familiar with, but they can't if you keep beating their heads into the ground and not listening. Questions are a good thing, but LISTENING and learning from the answers are also. It is easy to be all bravado on the internet. I prefer to stay true to me. I listen in real life. It is part of my job. I can ask a question, however, in the end, it is the director's call, whether I agreed with him or not. Period. 99.9% they gave me a lot of free rein, but I listened to their wisdom also.

    You are an intelligent man. However, you need to learn how to listen and learn. *smile* no offense intended.

    There is no shame in being wrong.

    There is in not admitting it.
    I don't mind being proven wrong, but just to be told I'm wrong, that gets me furious. I read about you whale watching and that sounded amazing.
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  80. #180  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Do you make decisions? If you find yourself undecided how do you finally decide which way to go?
    You're missing the point.
    Whether or not decisions are made doesn't say anything about how they are made.
    Is the choice "freely" made or is it entirely a result of my "programming"?
    I would not call it "programming" though that isn't a bad description, Sir Ducky. I think we make our decisions, if we are wise on weighing the pro's and con's and then make our decision based on those facts.

    I would call that free choice, not pre-determined.

    But that is just my humble opinion.
    It works, doesn't it? I'm a bit too quick on the draw and make a rapid decision which can prove later to be not the best one. I hadn't done my homework properly, but I put this down to creativity. You try things out to see if they will work. You are then looking for the unknown, how it responds when you observe, and retain the experience.

    I can come up with amazing ideas, inventions, processes, but I probably can't manage a business properly. I'm not orderly enough.
    However, until you know those are facts and proven, you just can't throw it out there! You need to give evidence of proof in here.

    I am a creative person, and my mind goes at least 300 miles a second and I get ideas, but I try them out to prove them before I spout them out! Well....not all the time.....I am not perfect by any means. My husband always says to me, "SLOW DOWN!!!" But when I do get an idea I write it down. Then I scope it out. The theatre used to call me the "wealth of miscellaneous ideas and problem solving."

    If you don't have the proof to back up your theory, then it remains just that, a theory.

    What is good is that you explore outside what your field is.

    Curiosity is healthy!
    Most of the Nebular Theory is just theory, so is "my theory" any worse especially if mine has better logic? But if I do present the whole "New Nebular Theory" it is going to be a lot of work, for I'm not only presenting my hypotheses but having to show why the new is better than the old. It is not easy to make people to see something new.
    Not being in any form of science except the stuff in theatre, I really cannot answer that! I don't have the knowledge or the qualifications!
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I have written a monologue based on a book, and performed it, yes. Was it well received? Yes. Learning 5 pages of dialogue however is the pits.

    I can honestly say I have never received a bad review.
    No that definitely can't be easy, and i know I could never do it myself. In real life I'm quite shy but on the forums i can be aggressive (dominant? so i think).
    This is where you need to be more humble.....others can help and teach you in the areas of science you are not familiar with, but they can't if you keep beating their heads into the ground and not listening. Questions are a good thing, but LISTENING and learning from the answers are also. It is easy to be all bravado on the internet. I prefer to stay true to me. I listen in real life. It is part of my job. I can ask a question, however, in the end, it is the director's call, whether I agreed with him or not. Period. 99.9% they gave me a lot of free rein, but I listened to their wisdom also.

    You are an intelligent man. However, you need to learn how to listen and learn. *smile* no offense intended.

    There is no shame in being wrong.

    There is in not admitting it.
    I don't mind being proven wrong, but just to be told I'm wrong, that gets me furious. I read about you whale watching and that sounded amazing.
    That is fair enough, but if you are told and proven wrong, then what?


    If you make a statement and it doesn't have the support of the theory and someone calls you wrong, and shows you why, then can you accept being wrong?

    One of the worst things in humans is the inability to say, "I was wrong." I have learned to do that, both here and in real life. We aren't always right in spite of our deep convictions about things. Just an observation.

    And the bummer about the whale was it was so sudden, I couldn't get a photo!
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  81. #181  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't mind being proven wrong, but just to be told I'm wrong, that gets me furious. I read about you whale watching and that sounded amazing.
    That is fair enough, but if you are told and proven wrong, then what?


    If you make a statement and it doesn't have the support of the theory and someone calls you wrong, and shows you why, then can you accept being wrong?

    One of the worst things in humans is the inability to say, "I was wrong." I have learned to do that, both here and in real life. We aren't always right in spite of our deep convictions about things. Just an observation.

    And the bummer about the whale was it was so sudden, I couldn't get a photo!
    If we can't admit (even if it's just to ourselves) when we're wrong/mistaken/incorrect about something, then we can never learn (and therefore grow) as people.
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  82. #182  
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    Your only half right.

    The best way to learn from your mistakes (if you can) is to make them as fast as you can.

    Saves time.
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  83. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    I don't mind being proven wrong, but just to be told I'm wrong, that gets me furious. I read about you whale watching and that sounded amazing.
    That is fair enough, but if you are told and proven wrong, then what?


    If you make a statement and it doesn't have the support of the theory and someone calls you wrong, and shows you why, then can you accept being wrong?

    One of the worst things in humans is the inability to say, "I was wrong." I have learned to do that, both here and in real life. We aren't always right in spite of our deep convictions about things. Just an observation.

    And the bummer about the whale was it was so sudden, I couldn't get a photo!
    If we can't admit (even if it's just to ourselves) when we're wrong/mistaken/incorrect about something, then we can never learn (and therefore grow) as people.
    That is so true, and it trails into everything you DO In life!! I mean everything!! Wonderful observation young man! If I were you Mom, I'd be proud to have a son that recognizes that!
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  84. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Your only half right.

    The best way to learn from your mistakes (if you can) is to make them as fast as you can.

    Saves time.
    I can't cite a source, but I'm sure I've heard that we actually learn better from our successes than our mistakes. As demonstrated in part by people who, throughout their lives, find themselves making the same kinds of mistakes over and over again.
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    I just needed an excuse to screw up today.

    You don't need to cite a source because positive reinforcement is better than negative.
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  86. #186  
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    I found the article I was trying to remember:

    Why we don't learn from our mistakes (Wired UK)
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  87. #187  
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    Er guys, can we tone down the nested quotes a bit? I am getting a headache. Thanks.
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    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  88. #188  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Er guys, can we tone down the nested quotes a bit? I am getting a headache. Thanks.
    sorry Sir Kalster!!
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  89. #189  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Er guys, can we tone down the nested quotes a bit? I am getting a headache. Thanks.
    sorry Sir Kalster!!
    No problem. That last one had 12 nested quotes in it along with the response.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I've seen a crackpot before coin a derogatory term "Maths Boy." As in the person good at math, being only an uncreative computer, should cater to the crackpots whimsical nonsense. Talk about delusional narcissism!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Have you written a play? Can you convince the Arts Society to go along with your creation? I've done it at work, the whole factory becomes an extension of my ideas, and it is satisfying, but I want to do the same in science. I can't match Markus in the math but I can see how things work in a physical way. But the math of that is not natural for me, but I'm learning, but he can help me with it. Will the math make it fail - I don't know, but I don't think so.
    I've seen a crackpot before coin a derogatory term "Maths Boy." As in the person good at math, being only an uncreative computer, should cater to the crackpots whimsical nonsense. Talk about delusional narcissism!
    You can say it is nonsense but what happens when it is true.

    Don't you look around your house and feel it represents you? The way you behave is you. Babe writes a play and an author writes a books, a film director produces a movie. There are people who do get to see the fruits of their work.
    And I see this too at work for I keep on making improvements to the point the whole place reflects my input. OK the costs weren't mine and I don't do the welding or the fitting but I am part of the team. That is satisfying. The workers are happy for their pay goes up for the process is sped up, and the product is better, Win win win, is my objective.
    It could be a form of narcissism but I don't mind it, in fact I like it.
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    You can be whatever you want when your high!

    009 Sound System "With A Spirit" OFFICIAL HD - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You can be whatever you want when your high!

    009 Sound System "With A Spirit" OFFICIAL HD - YouTube
    I missed the point of that one.
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  94. #194  
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    Don't lie.

    You just refuse to accept the point.
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  95. #195  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    Don't lie.

    You just refuse to accept the point.
    Please explain it to me then know-it-all.
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    You're hopeless.
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  97. #197  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You're hopeless.
    You're the hopeless one. I ask for help and get nothing. Start again. What did you mean before?
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    You also ask if pi equals circumference divided by diameter directly after I post:

    #61:

    Why should it matter not to believe in God?

    Y
    ou are beyond help. Believing only fantasy and have shown no education whatsoever. Yet, you claim to be a scientist.
    Last edited by Beer w/Straw; November 22nd, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    You also ask if pi equals circumference divided by diameter directly after I post:

    #61:

    Why should it matter not to believe in God?

    Y
    ou are beyond help. Believing only fantasy and have shown no education whatsoever. Yet, you claim to be a scientist.
    So what is your claim to fame? I know 1 + 1 = 2
    Is that a good start?
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    My claim to fame?

    Apart from you, I have empathy.
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