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Thread: Where did the idea of Chakras come from?

  1. #1 Where did the idea of Chakras come from? 
    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
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    I have a guilty secret. I find some metaphysical and spiritual concepts (a.k.a. woo) quite entertaining, things like Chakras and crystals, etc. Of course I'm aware there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate any of it is real, but it's fun to pretend.

    I am, however, curious as to where the concept of such things originated. How did people come up with these ideas in the first place?

    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?


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    Well, the idea that one body part or region can have an effect elsewhere isn't silly. The pure bliss of a foot rub tells you that. Turning that well-known fact into reflexology - tells you something else entirely.

    And it's something a bit like that that gets you into the "flow" of Qi, I suppose.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?
    So many esoteric and ancient systems have used these ideas that they are unlikely to go away.
    Chakras are supposed to be like spinning wheels of energy within the body. They are supposed to spin fast when you are young and spin ever slower as you age. If you can get them to spin faster as you get older then that is reckoned to have health benefits (much like exercise).
    I think you are probably right to imply the use of drugs, and especially hallucinatory drugs, to further enhance the experience.
    There is a correspondence between the chakras and the plexuses and glands in the body. The solar and sacral plexuses are examples.
    The Hindu system has 7 main chakras (that number 7 again!). The Tibetan system has 2 further chakras in the knees. The Hebrew system which found a home in Europe before the Hindu system was known, has 10 sephira or spinning wheels of energy to include both sides of the brain.
    When you consider that everything spins from the electron to the universe as a whole then it could be a valid belief that energy centres are found at certain points in the body. However it must be true that the Anahata centre (Hindu) or Tiphereth (Hebrew) which correspond to the region of the heart, are found in a place where the body is most naturally energized.
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    The reply that OX gives is pretty good. Having at one time in my youth spent around ten years 'developing' my chakras and doing daily meditation/contemplation, plus having seen/experienced the 'unexplainable' inner chi power of people who cultivate it to a powerful degree, I can realise that in our distant early past certain humans felt within them distinctive focus points that we can now equate mainly with nerve centres in the body. Most people have the ability to focus their concentration on these zones and can stimulate them, because these nerve centres are connected to the brain and although we imagine them just to take care of autonomic functions we can also consciously affect them. We can consciously extend their energy and strengthen it and use this energy to heal and as a form of an additional sense - it's very easy for someone adept, for example, to sense using their chi to navigate a room when blindfolded, or to sense an attack from behind to block it. I think all of this was felt by early humans before it was called chakras and chi, etc,.
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    Drivel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Drivel.
    Too kind, I'm going with unmitigated bullshit.
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    is it worth spending time on? like, wow, some poor bastard who loved it all was left hanging?
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    Quote Originally Posted by beingStupid
    Some inane twittering
    Please stop posting.
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    Some days fud and duck, you guys are a tad rude and closed minded.

    You ignore the power of belief, and the often overlooked power within the mind and body, seemingly out of ignorance and prejudice.

    If nothing else, think a greater version of placebo. Open your minds and open your hearts. Maybe it'll make for a better world.

    Have you never believed something for which you had no scientific basis, and seen results that would support your beliefs?

    (anecdote) In high-school I was a distance runner, and an average runner on a good day. I convinced myself that I could conserve energy by running with my eyes closed, and concentrate on my breathing, and following the sounds of the feet in front of me. So, I would fall in with the leading pack, and drift into my pattern. Then toward the end of the race, I would kick a 400 meter sprint while others were tiring. The sight of me kicking it and passing them demoralized them, and I would end up finishing second or third and once or twice first.
    It worked because I believed it would work.

    Try stepping outside of your mental prisons every once in a while. Grow and blossom.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some days fud and duck, you guys are a tad rude and closed minded.
    You ignore the power of belief, and the often overlooked power within the mind and body, seemingly out of ignorance and prejudice.
    If nothing else, think a greater version of placebo. Open your minds and open your hearts. Maybe it'll make for a better world
    Have you never believed something for which you had no scientific basis, and seen results that would support your beliefs?
    Try stepping outside of your mental prisons every once in a while. Grow and blossom.

    I would like to comment on that, and I shall start with an anecdote myself.

    When I was 16 years old, I was interested in chakras, auras, astrology and palm reading.
    I consulted books about these subjects because I believed that these things existed and that they were all out of the scope of science. I convinced myself that I could see auras and that I could leave my own body via the notion of astral projection. Come to think of it; if I joined this forum a few years ago, I would be seen as a crank and certainly be kicked out by the Staff members.

    I had some odd beliefs at the time, but I abandoned them all at the age of 18. Do you know why? Because I entered University and I learned about science and its methodology. It turned out that everything I believed, was basically unscientific and how can one regard himself as spiritual and be concerned about his horoscope, whilst he simultaneously demands evidence for every new notion that wants to be incorporated in the realm of science? Well, it turns out you cannot, hence I left my beliefs for what they actually were: beliefs.


    If people hold beliefs that are not based on anything scientific, they are not frowned upon by me because I know what it is to be such an individual, I really do.

    However, if you regard people who reject the existence of chakras as close-minded because they have noted that the notion itself has no scientific basis whatsoever, whilst also stating that skeptics are also ignorant and prejudiced, then you are solely insulting us because we do not see the world as you see it.

    That, sir, is the definition of close-mindedness.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I have a guilty secret. I find some metaphysical and spiritual concepts (a.k.a. woo) quite entertaining, things like Chakras and crystals, etc. Of course I'm aware there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate any of it is real, but it's fun to pretend.

    I am, however, curious as to where the concept of such things originated. How did people come up with these ideas in the first place?

    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?
    From the link: Chakras are first mentioned in the Vedas, ancient Hindu texts of knowledge. Early text that provide the location of the chakras include: the Shri Jabala Darshana Upanishad, the Cudamini Upanishad, the Yoga-Shikka Upanishad and the Shandilya Upanishad. Hiroshi Motoyama in "Theories of the Chakras: Bridge to Higher Consciousness" discusses these text and that of 10th Century mystic Guru Goraknath who wrote in the Gorakshashatakam about awakening these energy centers through meditation. History of the Chakra System My thoughts >> Another spiritual belief system among many, that is subjective in nature. There is no evidence for these beliefs, just like there is no evidence to support Christianity, or Islam. But if you are a believer in such religions, you will decide for yourself, what you deem as evidence. Example, Christians believe that the Bible is genuine evidence of God's word, and existence. It is hard for someone to believe in the validity of such things and also to be loyal to science and scientific methods. Many say an individual can adhere to both, but in practicality, he/she cannot. Just my two cents.
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    To understand the chakras then I agree that just a belief in them won't work. But I'll stick my neck out a bit and say that they really do exist, and it is not the blind belief that prevails in the likes of religion and astrology.
    Of the many ways to experience the chakras, the system of the 5 Tibetan Rites is probably the most instant and effective. Provided you can work your way up to doing the complete set (5 x 21) on a daily basis then you are certain to experience something.
    These remarkable exercises were brought to the West by Wilfred Malleson (aka Col. Bradford) a British army officer who stayed some time in a lamasery in Tibet.
    I have been doing them every morning for 6-7 years now, and I have experienced health benefits not found in other forms of exercise. What's more I just love doing them. They only take me 6 minutes, and it feels better than when I went to the gym.

    Five Tibetan Rites - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The only thing to emphasise is that the spinning exercise must be done first, and to observe caution with it to begin with.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    To understand the chakras then I agree that just a belief in them won't work. But I'll stick my neck out a bit and say that they really do exist, and it is not the blind belief that prevails in the likes of religion and astrology.
    What! How can it be anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    Of the many ways to experience the chakras, the system of the 5 Tibetan Rites is probably the most instant and effective. Provided you can work your way up to doing the complete set (5 x 21) on a daily basis then you are certain to experience something.
    Imaginations like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    These remarkable exercises were brought to the West by Wilfred Malleson (aka Col. Bradford) a British army officer who stayed some time in a lamasery in Tibet.
    I have been doing them every morning for 6-7 years now, and I have experienced health benefits not found in other forms of exercise.
    But what has that got to do with Chakras.
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    What's more I just love doing them. They only take me 6 minutes, and it feels better than when I went to the gym.
    I run, ride, swim, I love doing that. And you point is!
    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    The only thing to emphasise is that the spinning exercise must be done first, and to observe caution with it to begin with.
    Well of course it has to, it has to get you dizzy first. How else are you going to actually think they exist.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    You sound about as cynical as I am about doing yoga. I found that I could get into dozens of yoga postures (asanas) with little effort. I kept hearing about the health benefits of yoga, but in the end I had to admit it - there weren't any that I ever found. However I still do yoga, and only today I got into over 50 postures. It keeps me quite supple and I find it relaxing.
    I also looked into the yoga system of chakras, but found it to be vague and weighed down in Hindu symbolism. It kind of helped in the practice of meditation from the point of view of understanding the subconscious inner workings of the body, but that's about all.
    Then I discovered the Tibetan Rites and decided to try them out. The first exercise made me dizzy to begin with, but that soon went away. The second I found difficult to do 21 times but I managed it in the end. The others I found quite easy. When I had worked up to comfortably doing 5 x 21 after a few weeks I started to notice some unexpected things. My eyesight which had been deteriorating for some time started to improve. I was on the verge of going to the opticians, then no need anymore. 6-7 years later I still don't need glasses. What swung it for me was that the tortuous eczema I had suffered all my life went away for the first time ever, and to this day stays away. No hay fever any more either.
    The Rites refer to the chakras as vortexes, but the idea remains the same.
    I also do other activities - jogging, cycling, long distance walking, sport. Some of these yield temporary benefits, but can be time consuming. The Rites take just a few minutes a day.
    The man who presents the peak time dancing program on TV (Bruce Forsyth) and is well into his 80's attributes his energy to performing the Rites.
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    Hey Ox
    would you explain the Tibetan Rites in detail?
    postures, proceedures, sequencing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I have a guilty secret. I find some metaphysical and spiritual concepts (a.k.a. woo) quite entertaining, things like Chakras and crystals, etc. Of course I'm aware there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate any of it is real, but it's fun to pretend.

    I am, however, curious as to where the concept of such things originated. How did people come up with these ideas in the first place?

    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?
    Hatha yoga, I'm sure of it.

    When you do certain asanas, (yoga poses) you have experiences in certain parts of your body. For instance, doing the plow will create this sensation of a ball of heat in your lower stomach, near your spine. Other asanas will give you the same sensation in other places, but always up and down the midline of your body (in my experience). I think these experiences are strait up science fact, and may not require any mystic stuff to explain them, they may just be physical. But yoga is ancient and predates science, so the early hatha practitioners spoke about them in terms of prana/chi, and in terms of opening channels and whatnot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I have a guilty secret. I find some metaphysical and spiritual concepts (a.k.a. woo) quite entertaining, things like Chakras and crystals, etc. Of course I'm aware there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate any of it is real, but it's fun to pretend.

    I am, however, curious as to where the concept of such things originated. How did people come up with these ideas in the first place?

    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?
    Hatha yoga, I'm sure of it.

    When you do certain asanas, (yoga poses) you have experiences in certain parts of your body. For instance, doing the plow will create this sensation of a ball of heat in your lower stomach, near your spine. Other asanas will give you the same sensation in other places, but always up and down the midline of your body (in my experience). I think these experiences are strait up science fact, and may not require any mystic stuff to explain them, they may just be physical. But yoga is ancient and predates science, so the early hatha practitioners spoke about them in terms of prana/chi, and in terms of opening channels and whatnot.
    Complete woo woo bs! Because you have told us what to expect, we will expect it, if you had asked us whether we felt anything after we did it. And we actually said that we got a hot feeling at the base of the spine etc. Then I might have a little respect for your woo. But even then you may just say that's what happens, to give your woo some justification. There is no science in yoga, but woo woo bs a plenty. Well no more science than any other exercise regime.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    ox
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Hey Ox
    would you explain the Tibetan Rites in detail?
    postures, proceedures, sequencing?
    I can't improve much on this, because it is the book:

    http://www.satrakshita.be/Books/The%...Revelation.pdf

    Other than to say:
    Rite#1 is designed to speed up the rotation of the chakras or vortexes in preparation for what follows.
    Rite#2 is a dynamic version of the yoga plough posture.
    Rite#3 is a dynamic version of the yoga camel posture.
    Rite#4 is a dynamic version of the yoga table posture.
    Rite#5 is a dynamic version of the yoga cobra posture (or up and down dog).
    Work up to doing 21 of each in the prescribed order. Doing less, the results are greatly reduced. This could take days, weeks or months depending on age and ability.
    Success is measured by the feeling that energy is pouring in, rather than out, of the body, with resulting health benefits in time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    I have a guilty secret. I find some metaphysical and spiritual concepts (a.k.a. woo) quite entertaining, things like Chakras and crystals, etc. Of course I'm aware there's no evidence whatsoever to indicate any of it is real, but it's fun to pretend.

    I am, however, curious as to where the concept of such things originated. How did people come up with these ideas in the first place?

    Could it have been some form of confirmation bias by "healers" that lead people to things such as Chakras or Qi? Or perhaps the consumption of certain naturally-occurring plant based chemical substances combined with meditation practices that lead people to imagine they could see such phenomena?
    Chakras are nothing more than the phi or golden section mathematical division or expansion of the human body. Its proveable and easy to omprehend simply by doing the math.

    Belly button measurements or even more simply digit expansions or contractions from your fingers. PHI multiplication of 1.618 in distance from tip back shows absolute design in the human body as a start and then when you do the rest of the measurements, the you confirm the design of the template called the Golden Section, then go to the solar system, etc etc etc.... and Chakra's is very understandable, mind you the sometimes silly Easterners pervert this knowledge and semantics pervert this knowledge for their gain, so just omit their perversions and money making schemes and go to the basic and the mathematics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    Chakras are nothing more than the phi or golden section mathematical division or expansion of the human body.
    No they're not.

    shows absolute design
    Or not...
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    OK I shall have to prove it, I would have thought you knew these basic templates of creation and design previously.

    Must see if I can show hyperlinks first though.

    Later, but on a math thread.... not much into religion at all, they are usually way too violent for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    Belly button measurements or even more simply digit expansions or contractions from your fingers. PHI multiplication of 1.618 in distance from tip back shows absolute design in the human body as a start and then when you do the rest of the measurements, the you confirm the design of the template called the Golden Section, then go to the solar system, etc etc etc.... and Chakra's is very understandable, mind you the sometimes silly Easterners pervert this knowledge and semantics pervert this knowledge for their gain, so just omit their perversions and money making schemes and go to the basic and the mathematics.
    Isn't the golden section/ratio or whatever simply a fractal pattern, and fractals are ubiquitous (I think that's the right word?) in nature, so having physical proportions that correlate to Phi is pretty much to be expected, at least in my opinion.

    I don't see what that has to do with chakral "energy centers" though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    Belly button measurements or even more simply digit expansions or contractions from your fingers. PHI multiplication of 1.618 in distance from tip back shows absolute design in the human body as a start and then when you do the rest of the measurements, the you confirm the design of the template called the Golden Section, then go to the solar system, etc etc etc.... and Chakra's is very understandable, mind you the sometimes silly Easterners pervert this knowledge and semantics pervert this knowledge for their gain, so just omit their perversions and money making schemes and go to the basic and the mathematics.
    Isn't the golden section/ratio or whatever simply a fractal pattern, and fractals are ubiquitous (I think that's the right word?) in nature, so having physical proportions that correlate to Phi is pretty much to be expected, at least in my opinion.

    I don't see what that has to do with chakral "energy centers" though.
    I risk being kicked off this board, when I just started because people do not want to study or do the math. So for you to actually ask a sincere question is admirable.


    Our bodies show the golden section. This is not hocus pocus but a simple and consistent golden section ratio multiplication or division.

    SEE and study hyperlinks when you need further explanations.

    GoldenSectionDesigninHumans

    Or graphically go to

    GoldenSectionandyourBody

    But because of the aggressive nature of this religious sub board, I shall be leaving this sub board for a more mathematical one
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    Our bodies show the golden section.
    More crap. Where is the data to support this claim? It is obviously wrong, because people have different proportions. I suppose that means you could find someone whose body does have those proportions but because everybody else doesn't, it is hardly significant.

    I see you use one of Da Vinci's pictures on your web page. Which is a shame as it doesn't support your case:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    although the Vitruvian Man is often[34] shown in connection with the golden ratio, the proportions of the figure do not actually match it, and the text only mentions whole number ratios
    Golden ratio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    But because of the aggressive nature of this religious sub board
    This is a science forum. I doubt you will get a warm welcome anywhere here.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    But because of the aggressive nature of this religious sub board
    This is a science forum. I doubt you will get a warm welcome anywhere here.
    He's religious, so this is just some game he's playing.
    It seems to be some kind of 'bait' that we are meant to 'bite'.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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    No one HERE hates relgion more than I do.

    I hate theorists, I know from real life experiences how truly vile most religionists are. Not everyone bvecause among them there are some truly sweet and loving people, but using set theory, the majority are very vile and very competitive and very violent.

    We can not judge or discern down to individuals but their grouping into certain denominations does give an indication of their motivations and hearts and modus operandi.

    The safest ones are the independants among them you can find real gems.

    Now enough of this foolish unscientific talk about religious heathen that only love themselves and their supposed superiority over others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Some days fud and duck, you guys are a tad rude and closed minded.

    You ignore the power of belief, and the often overlooked power within the mind and body, seemingly out of ignorance and prejudice.

    If nothing else, think a greater version of placebo. Open your minds and open your hearts. Maybe it'll make for a better world.

    Have you never believed something for which you had no scientific basis, and seen results that would support your beliefs?

    (anecdote) In high-school I was a distance runner, and an average runner on a good day. I convinced myself that I could conserve energy by running with my eyes closed, and concentrate on my breathing, and following the sounds of the feet in front of me. So, I would fall in with the leading pack, and drift into my pattern. Then toward the end of the race, I would kick a 400 meter sprint while others were tiring. The sight of me kicking it and passing them demoralized them, and I would end up finishing second or third and once or twice first.
    It worked because I believed it would work.

    Try stepping outside of your mental prisons every once in a while. Grow and blossom.
    Exactly what I wrote and yet I got told to leave this forum because their words of drivel were accepted and mine on my very first day were not allowed.

    Anyway, thanks for stating confirmations, bro..... maybe there is hope for this forum.
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  30. #29  
    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    No one HERE hates relgion more than I do.
    From your web-page:
    "The Lord created the 'Heavens, and Earth and all the laws that surround us. Nothing was created by evolution or chance but according to His exact and balanced DESIGN. All things including TIME (Prophecy) have been designed exactly by HIM. ALL sciences and all truth comes back to HIM."
    And then there is your failed prophecies based on the Bible:
    Prophecymysteries
    Your web-page is full of christian religion.

    So...you are quite religious.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

    "And, behold, I come quickly;" Revelation 22:12

    "Religions are like sausages. When you know how they are made, you no longer want them."
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  31. #30  
    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
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    I hope it's not being suggested that golden-whatever proportions that are present in the Human body, in any way hint to some kind of "intelligent design".

    Why assume the presence of an outside influence when biological and mathematical efficiency could determine the optimal proportions just fine all by themselves.
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  32. #31  
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    Wake up Dacon and quite being intellectually dishonest.

    New Zealanders would be ashamed of you for being so dumb, you can;t see your own hands design. That which is right before your face.

    Your country should be noted for its thinkers rather than just the great landscapes I saw there.

    Except for Wellington, horrible place, ficious winds, wierd people...the rest is great in many ways.

    But your intellectual dishonesty and subsequent posting HERE, a real shame and blot on your resume.
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  33. #32  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidjayjordan View Post
    No one HERE hates relgion more than I do.
    Yet you subscribe to one.
    How strange...
    Maybe you mean organised religion.

    Oh sorry my bad.
    I hate relgion too. Or I probably would if I knew WTF one was.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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