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Thread: I need help

  1. #1 I need help 
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    Hello everyone, I know that arguing with people that won't accept facts is utterly pointless, but I have to do something.

    I came from patriarchal and religious family, I was raised by the rules of Qur'an( the holy book of Muslims), Islam was the way of life for me. At one part of my life I have become quite radical, the dedication to Islam was overarching and all of sudden I started questioning everything I believe, I first started from minor and stupid things like miracles in Islam, flying carpet,ghosts, etc..etc. To make long story short, I ended up being an atheist.

    The main problem is my brother, he is four years younger than me but he is really into religion and, I tried to argue with him but every time it would lead to squabbling and even fight o.O. Even if I provide him with the scientist evidences for religious falsehood and dozen of logical evidenced to support my theory he still refuse to accept that. I am scared because I believe that he will do something stupid, he is spending almost whole day studying,learning,listening videos about Islam(that's not the problem) the problem is he is watching videos about war in Syria all the time and he said few times that he wish he could fight by their side to protect them from pure evil. I



    If I managed to awake I hope I can make him to be aware of the nonsenses he believes in, because we share same genes, but at the other hand I am in the mood when I want just to give up, and to continue living my own life, to completely remove any religious debate between me and him, and to stop trying to make him open his eyes..

    I would appreciate any help, P.S these are some questions I asked him.

    1. I explained the evolution of religion, the need for human beings to believe into something supernatural duo to their inability to explain (nowadays explainable) things.
    2. I explained that there was religions before Islam and before Abrahams religion that were totally different from the one he is obeying.
    3. I tried different tactic sometimes, for instance I mentioned some miracle from other religion and I asked him what does he think about that, his reply would usually be that's rubbish but when I mention something the same from qur'an if not even funnier his answer would be this is totally different.
    4. When I provide him with many fallacies and absurdities in Qur'an he responds with our inability to read Qur'an in it's original language, jagr..
    Actually I can keep writing questions I asked him whole day long..


    Last edited by CuriousMind; October 1st, 2013 at 12:45 PM.
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  3. #2  
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    When it comes to family, it's hard to watch them do something we do not believe in.

    He's probably asking his friends how he can save you.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    When it comes to family, it's hard to watch them do something we do not believe in.

    He's probably asking his friends how he can save you.
    It's not about watch them do something we do not believe in, it's more watching them doing something really stupid and believing they are doing the right thing :'( .

    Hehe, I thought about it earlier and I know it, every theist is arguing with atheists with the reasons to guide them to the right path.. that's understandable otherwise they wouldn't be theists.
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  5. #4  
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    Taking a life is not an easy thing. Feeling your own in clear and present danger is also not easy. Perhaps if he was more aware of war and the lack of glory and honor in it, he might be less constrained to want to participate in one.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Taking a life is not an easy thing. Feeling your own in clear and present danger is also not easy. Perhaps if he was more aware of war and the lack of glory and honor in it, he might be less constrained to want to participate in one.
    There is truth in that, I believe it has a lot to do with religion and subconscious desire for proving.
    Religion is on the first place, because if you die fighting in the name of Allah you'll be shahid, and that means you'll get your place in heaven instantly no matter how bad your past was plus many other benefits Shahid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia now when I reread it it is even funnier oh my.

    And desire for proving , there are many people from area where I live that went in Syria to fight in the name of Allah, they are getting huge glory amongst the Muslim population here..
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    I have to do something.
    May I ask why?

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    I am scared because I believe that he will do something stupid...
    Why do you not want him to do something stupid?

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    because we share same genes
    Since you possess the same genes, the shared genetic material resides within you too. What is the lost of one less carrier, if that is what you fear.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Taking a life is not an easy thing. Feeling your own in clear and present danger is also not easy. Perhaps if he was more aware of war and the lack of glory and honor in it, he might be less constrained to want to participate in one.
    There is truth in that, I believe it has a lot to do with religion and subconscious desire for proving.
    Religion is on the first place, because if you die fighting in the name of Allah you'll be shahid, and that means you'll get your place in heaven instantly no matter how bad your past was plus many other benefits Shahid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia now when I reread it it is even funnier oh my.

    And desire for proving , there are many people from area where I live that went in Syria to fight in the name of Allah, they are getting huge glory amongst the Muslim population here..
    See, my complaint with religion is with things like this. It's not that it relies on faith or belief- it is not that it makes people think a certain way.

    It is that it actively encourages people to think a certain way, which they already have the capacity to do, anyway. It will even resort to the sneakiest and dirtiest forms of deception in order to do so- see RamenNoodles thread in which he points out that the YEC's claim that scientists are lying and that they debunk dinosaur myths... They do not provide evidence but rather muddy the waters so that others don't know who to believe.
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  9. #8  
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    May I ask why?
    He is my brother and I know that he is smarter than that, the same answers goes with the second question.

    When I said that we share the same genes I meant if I am able to overcome religious indoctrination he will be able to do that as well. Or at least to reshape some radical beliefs, he is still young.

    See, my complaint with religion is with things like this. It's not that it relies on faith or belief- it is not that it makes people think a certain way.

    It is that it actively encourages people to think a certain way, which they already have the capacity to do, anyway. It will even resort to the sneakiest and dirtiest forms of deception in order to do so- see RamenNoodles thread in which he points out that the YEC's claim that scientists are lying and that they debunk dinosaur myths... They do not provide evidence but rather muddy the waters so that others don't know who to believe.
    I completely agree with you, but I was in that shoes, I remember my old self when I refused every rational and scientific explanation that harms my beliefs, I searched only for evidences to support my theories (even if they were rubbish from this point of view).
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    I completely agree with you, but I was in that shoes, I remember my old self when I refused every rational and scientific explanation that harms my beliefs, I searched only for evidences to support my theories (even if they were rubbish from this point of view).
    What snapped you out of it?

    A compelling argument? Evidence you could not deny? Maturity?
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  11. #10  
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    It could be the mixture of several things, I was 17 years old when I started questioning myself and world around me so I guess maturity has a big role here, proper education as well I am extremely curious human beings but after all I guess we all are? So do you have any advice what should I do?
    Last edited by CuriousMind; October 1st, 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    he is watching videos about war in Syria all the time and he said few times that he wish he could fight by their side to protect them from pure evil.
    Which side does he want to fight on?
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    Actually I doubt he is going to fight, he already applied for university in one country , he is only listening and watching videos about it a lot r, like many others people that lives here.. I really do hope that this is just a passing thing, but I can't deny the fact that I am furious about everything, actually he thinks that I am a fool and in delusion which makes me even angrier.

    P.S Assad side.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    I have to do something.
    May I ask why?
    He is my brother and I know that he is smarter than that
    It bothers you that someone of familial affinity doesn't share your perspective on the subject and may be tempted to do something that you consider to be of bad judgment; landing him in a situation where he personally may or may not regret?

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    I am scared because I believe that he will do something stupid...
    Why do you not want him to do something stupid?
    He is my brother and I know that he is smarter than that
    Intelligent or smart people make bad decisions/judgments all the time (so to speak). Have you considered that he ought to be allowed to make his?

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    When I said that we share the same genes I meant if I am able to overcome religious indoctrination he will be able to do that as well. Or at least to reshape some radical beliefs, he is still young.
    My younger brother and I share similar genes, but there is a great divide between our views on politics. I had considered your approach in my youth, but decided that he ought to be allowed walk his path wherever it takes him. Our shared genes can express itself in a variety of ways depending on the environment. Who is to say that either or both isn't in the best interest of propagating itself (the genes).
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  15. #14  
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    Converting or forcing someone's hand in one direction or another rarely produce positive results no matter how good or noble the intentions are. It's a form of censorship that operates on a self serving belief that somehow the agent of conversion is better suited to make decisions for others. Trust in your brother's ability to make the right decisions for himself. If you attack his faith, you risk entrenching him in a zealous conditioning.

    If you fear that his faith was used against him to further political or man made agendas, use his faith to put him back on track. Remember the positive aspects of your former faith and use them to help your brother see what is divine by nature. If his faith is strong, remind your brother to consider the prophet's teachings as a whole not bits and pieces. Help him understand that dying for the glory of Allah is quite different than dying because others told him to kill in the name of Al-Ghāfir.

    Deception probably killed your faith as it did mine. Spare your brother's, clear his way from the ill intent of others and let him chose his path. I'm a recovering Catholic and, although my faith is long gone, I'm reclaiming the good that was soiled by others.
    Common sense is like deodorant...The people who need it most never use it.
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    " Oh what a bunch of screwed up bunnies does religious indoctrination create.."
    I am very please that you found the way to a truth that has made you a better person.
    You quest to guide your brother away from the strong religious cult view.. admirable.
    I would suggest you pull back from direct confrontation. It will only strengthen his resolve to be right..
    Remember that you found your own way to a truth and he will do the same given the opportunity..
    Leaving copies of Richard Dawkins Books might help.. 'The god delusion' and just asking for a common sense look at the mythology of all religious faiths.. Take a back seat on the direct debate front.. It does not work. Try just being supportive and strong. You are the older brother. He will already be looking at you for guidance..Education is the answer.. slowly.. but do hear the warnings of others.. He might just become a stronger follower than you like.. It's his life. If you have become a better person, He will see that.
    The questions will be coming as he matures..
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  17. #16  
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    I reckon his preoccupation with religion and politics is an expression of a deeper problem. I think you're just feeding the fire by engaging him on that level.

    Anecdotally, my brother-in-law grew obsessed with mathematics during high school. His increasing preoccupation was in perfect proportion to his introversion. So he became a social misfit and eventually a professional gambler - a Yakuza. My wife can't objectively understand why her brother took this path, but as an outsider I can see how the family kinda set him up without meaning to. CuriousMind, I guess you're wondering what have yakuza got to do with militant Islamics. I'm saying these are different expressions (symptoms) of universal problems. Every culture or society has its preferred ways to express, that are always greeted with a queer mix of understanding and disapproval by the society. I'm saying that if your brother was a Mexican he'd be doing something just as self-destructive but the "thing" he chooses would be something almost normal in that society.

    Try to look past the way he's acting; look at why.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    Hello everyone, I know that arguing with people that won't accept facts is utterly pointless, but I have to do something.

    I came from patriarchal and religious family, I was raised by the rules of Qur'an( the holy book of Muslims), Islam was the way of life for me. At one part of my life I have become quite radical, the dedication to Islam was overarching and all of sudden I started questioning everything I believe, I first started from minor and stupid things like miracles in Islam, flying carpet,ghosts, etc..etc. To make long story short, I ended up being an atheist.

    The main problem is my brother, he is four years younger than me but he is really into religion and, I tried to argue with him but every time it would lead to squabbling and even fight o.O. Even if I provide him with the scientist evidences for religious falsehood and dozen of logical evidenced to support my theory he still refuse to accept that. I am scared because I believe that he will do something stupid, he is spending almost whole day studying,learning,listening videos about Islam(that's not the problem) the problem is he is watching videos about war in Syria all the time and he said few times that he wish he could fight by their side to protect them from pure evil. I



    If I managed to awake I hope I can make him to be aware of the nonsenses he believes in, because we share same genes, but at the other hand I am in the mood when I want just to give up, and to continue living my own life, to completely remove any religious debate between me and him, and to stop trying to make him open his eyes..

    I would appreciate any help, P.S these are some questions I asked him.

    1. I explained the evolution of religion, the need for human beings to believe into something supernatural duo to their inability to explain (nowadays explainable) things.
    2. I explained that there was religions before Islam and before Abrahams religion that were totally different from the one he is obeying.
    3. I tried different tactic sometimes, for instance I mentioned some miracle from other religion and I asked him what does he think about that, his reply would usually be that's rubbish but when I mention something the same from qur'an if not even funnier his answer would be this is totally different.
    4. When I provide him with many fallacies and absurdities in Qur'an he responds with our inability to read Qur'an in it's original language, jagr..
    Actually I can keep writing questions I asked him whole day long..
    One cannot change anothers mind if it is closed. I hope that you can maintain the love of your brother and he for you and work through your differences. Best of luck.
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    @Scoobydoo1 Indeed intelligent people make 'stupid' decisions, but if there are no stupid decisions smart one wouldn't exist either. The role of parrents is to guide their kids, to make their path easier, I guess it's the same with younger/older brother, I don't want to control his life I just want to help him to destroy that obstacle in his life.

    @Pong I already have some doubts, but I have no idea how exposing them would help in problem solving.

    @Lazy Jester , That's a good way to approach a situation .

    @Babe But one can influence another, or can slowly destroy the barricade that makes one mind closed.
    Last edited by CuriousMind; October 6th, 2013 at 07:22 AM.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    @Scoobydoo1 Indeed intelligent people make 'stupid' decisions, but if there are no stupid decisions good ones wouldn't exist either. The role of parrents is to guide their kids, to make their path easier, I guess it's the same with younger/older brother, I don't want to control his life I just want to help him to destroy that obstacle in his life.

    @Pong I already have some doubts, but I have no idea how exposing them would help in problem solving.

    @Lazy Jester , That's a good way to approach a situation .

    @Babe But one can influence another, or can slowly destroy the barricade that makes one mind closed.
    It depends on the mind of the person. Some people can't let go. Some people don't want things resolved. Some people keep that barricade up. I truly wish you the best. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. That you love your brother is very apparent.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousMind View Post
    Indeed intelligent people make 'stupid' decisions, but if there are no stupid decisions good ones wouldn't exist either. The role of parents is to guide their kids, to make their path easier, I guess it's the same with younger/older brother, I don't want to control his life I just want to help him to destroy that obstacle in his life.
    My advise would be to demonstrate that you can be the "right sort of person" that both of you aspire to be without the (no offense) religious baggage setting the rules. If he sees that, and becomes eventually curious as to what guides you or frames your worldview, he may be tempted to seek you out and enquire more, and that is when you can present the facts. If he isn't able to do this, and derives sufficient emotional gratification from participating in adopting the ethnoreligious dislike for certain parties; a "force the facts down the throat" approach may have the opposite effect and more firmly entrench his position.

    These things take time, and some people never break out of it due to the gratification they receive when "in the zone". Recall the state of mind you were in when you mentioned being "quite radical" and possibly devoted to your former religion. Try to have patience.
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  22. #21  
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    Sorry for the lack of paragraphs but my enter key does not work in this box . I am a European that has just finished studying the Koran, thought I remain an atheist. A rational scientific explanation of the main religious arguments for the existence of God is dealt with quite neatly in Dawkin's The God Delusion. Even if he won't read the text, maybe you would find material in this book. PDFs are available if you cant be seen with this book. For me the wonder of creation goes far deeper and tells a different tale than any religion. I also recommend Sam Harris's The end of faith. Islaam and the Koran demands obedience and it specifically advises against thinking for oneself - basically it's an 'argument from authority' - as a philosopher would say - i.e. I am right and you stop thinking, I know more than you, you must believe and you don't need evidence because Mohammet tells you. It's a similar trick to the Christian demand for 'faith' in what one does not understand. Did you think of taking him to the Science Museum too see the bones of dinosaurs and the skulls of our ancestors? Although Islaam stands for peace, its never brought peace, it has brought oppression masquerading for peace. Ditto for Christians bringing 'Love' - through conquest and pillage. I do hope you find a way of helping your brother, I too was a ardent religionist for a year or so, at this age, there is still time. I suggest you wait your moments rather than confront the absurdity of his beleifs head on. If he begins to change he will have to admit to himself that you are right and this may be hard for him to do. He will also lose the comfort of following others that claim authority and he risks apostosty and exclusion. Its a hard road. Have you heard of the society of ex muslims? Best wishes to both of you.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy Jester View Post
    Converting or forcing someone's hand in one direction or another rarely produce positive results no matter how good or noble the intentions are. It's a form of censorship that operates on a self serving belief that somehow the agent of conversion is better suited to make decisions for others. Trust in your brother's ability to make the right decisions for himself. If you attack his faith, you risk entrenching him in a zealous conditioning.

    If you fear that his faith was used against him to further political or man made agendas, use his faith to put him back on track. Remember the positive aspects of your former faith and use them to help your brother see what is divine by nature. If his faith is strong, remind your brother to consider the prophet's teachings as a whole not bits and pieces. Help him understand that dying for the glory of Allah is quite different than dying because others told him to kill in the name of Al-Ghāfir.

    Deception probably killed your faith as it did mine. Spare your brother's, clear his way from the ill intent of others and let him chose his path. I'm a recovering Catholic and, although my faith is long gone, I'm reclaiming the good that was soiled by others.
    i recommend this answer is concise.
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    well there is no a simple way to "comvert"someone... some people are good in... I don't know if you can learn it or its a talent...
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