Thread: who's God's God

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

Robots don't have a high enough cognitive ability to comprehend "gods". Not yet anyway.
Once they do, expect a Battlestar Galactica story to play out. Except...instead of there being a Battlestar Galactica...we'll be screwed.

And most religions have that covered. "ultimate creator" translates to "wasn't created". Aside from the obvious logical fallacy, that is.

It's a question that takes down the only seemingly reasonable argument for religion: "science doesn't know what happened before the big bang, how do you know it wasn't a god?". Well 'religion' doesn't know what came before their god, how can they say it wasn't another god? Etc, it just pushes back the question of what came first.

We still don't know where the universe came from (it sounds logical that everything that exists needs to have a beginning, while you can't get something from nothing), but neither does religion. Their 'solution' that god has always been there, and that only god didn't need to be created does not solve anything. The only reasonable thing to do is to accept that we don't know this, and move on (instead of filling the void with gods).

Some find it hard to accept that something(other than nothing) has always been yet find it easy to accept that God has always been.

It just makes the thought of a God causality even more ridiculous.

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

Ha. As if God is a single entity floating in the skies on his giant throne. Let me ask you something. Would God exist if no one chose to believe in him? If you ask me I say we created God. Or, we are God. Humans these days tend to think of themselves as individuals. This is only an illusion. Ever try to look at someones face without them noticing. They could be looking completely away and still notice. We are in fact all in this together (if the people of the world could just learn a little respect for their fellow man we would all be happy, but that's not the case). Maybe our collective consciousness is God. In that case we would be God's creators just as we are created by God. God isn't just some guy floating in the sy with a biological tool kit, creating things whenever he wants (or is he :?). I think that God's wonder of who created him is what created him.

Well that's just my opinion.

Originally Posted by Pendragon

It's a question that takes down the only seemingly reasonable argument for religion: "science doesn't know what happened before the big bang, how do you know it wasn't a god?". Well 'religion' doesn't know what came before their god, how can they say it wasn't another god? Etc, it just pushes back the question of what came first.

In the begining there was nothing (literally). This nothing had an overwhelming need to know itself and thus came the big bang. Nothing became God. The universe is his imagination.

One can only speculate.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Originally Posted by Pendragon

It's a question that takes down the only seemingly reasonable argument for religion: "science doesn't know what happened before the big bang, how do you know it wasn't a god?". Well 'religion' doesn't know what came before their god, how can they say it wasn't another god? Etc, it just pushes back the question of what came first.

In the begining there was nothing (literally). This nothing had an overwhelming need to know itself and thus came the big bang. Nothing became God. The universe is his imagination.

One can only speculate.

I don't think you really answer our questions. How can nothing have 'needs' and act on them? How can something come from nothing ("nothing became god")? How does this solve the problem that we don't know what happened before the Big Bang?

In my opinion the only reasonable thing to say is that we absolutely don't know this, and that a hypothesis (creationism) which adds a speculation (god) to a theory (big bang), has only decreased the value of that theory.
Creationists often propose that whether there was a god before the big bang or not is their word against the word of 'science', but I disagree. If an idea is not logical (involving 'getting something from nothing' for example) then it can savely be rejected as nonsense.

Originally Posted by Pendragon

If an idea is not logical (involving 'getting something from nothing' for example) then it can savely be rejected as nonsense.

How about something always existing (ie God), would you reject that as nonsense? Try not to bring religion into your answer, please :-D

I think someone must either believe that something has the status of always existing OR something can exist from nothing. Any other view is just even more insane.

Originally Posted by jagoman

Originally Posted by Pendragon

If an idea is not logical (involving 'getting something from nothing' for example) then it can savely be rejected as nonsense.

How about something always existing (ie God), would you reject that as nonsense? Try not to bring religion into your answer, please :-D

I think someone must either believe that something has the status of always existing OR something can exist from nothing. Any other view is just even more insane.

The idea that something has always existed is unscientific and extremely unhelpful. I'd be the first to agree that we don't know where 'everything' came from, or if it has always existed how that is possible. We don't know this and we can't know this. If someone would claim to 'know' that anything (like a god) has always existed then I reject that as nonsense.

But think about this: If everything (all matter) has always existed, how does adding a god to the story solve anything? If we assume that 'infinite existence' is possible, then we don't need a god to magically create something from nothing. The matter is allready there and can, by some natural process, be exploded in a Big Bang. God is redundent in this story.
But if the infinite existence of matter is impossible, then we need a god to create it from nothing (which I reject as nonsense). Science can't explain this and admits it, but religion invents an uncreated god to do the trick.

more schematic:

Situation 1 (infinite existence of matter is possible): all matter has always existed > matter explodes in BB in natural process > BB => God is redundent

Situation 2 (infinite existence of matter is not possible): first there's only god but no matter > god creates all matter from nothing > makes matter go BB > BB => I reject this as nonsense: you can't make something from nothing. Science can't explain this situation, but admits it

So as I see it we either don't need a god, or we get a situation in which assuming a god creates a situation which can be rejected as nonsense.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Ha. As if God is a single entity floating in the skies on his giant throne. Let me ask you something. Would God exist if no one chose to believe in him? If you ask me I say we created God. Or, we are God. Humans these days tend to think of themselves as individuals. This is only an illusion. Ever try to look at someones face without them noticing. They could be looking completely away and still notice. We are in fact all in this together (if the people of the world could just learn a little respect for their fellow man we would all be happy, but that's not the case). Maybe our collective consciousness is God. In that case we would be God's creators just as we are created by God. God isn't just some guy floating in the sy with a biological tool kit, creating things whenever he wants (or is he :?). I think that God's wonder of who created him is what created him.

Well that's just my opinion.

I agree with you here, but sometimes it makes me wonder about strange scientifically unexplainable phenomena that relgion has "explained" like stigmata, maybe excorsism

I am not saying I believe in this stuff but it does interest me greatly.

The idea that God created everything IS redundant if you dont look at the whole story. Assume that God is the possibility of existence(to put it in technical, scientific terms), then he very well can exist infinitly. Throw in the omnipotentce that the Bible portrays of Him, and the ability to create something from nothing, then it makes since.

By the way, what is nothing? If something can be comprehended, doesnt it exist?[/i]

Assuming God created the universe, it must be considered that he did not live in the universe prior to its creation. The party line is that God exists in infinity, an existence which experiences a much different economy from out time/space continuum universe.

So, in the original question of this thread, the use of the term “when” is inappropriate. In a timeless economy there is no when, no past, no future – there is only now.

We are ensconced in a world and mind set in which everything has a beginning and an end. It does not seem likely that this would be true of infinity. So long as we attempt to define an infinite God in terms of a finite world, our definition is necessarily flawed.

The best and easiest way to deal with this is to deny God’s existence and that completely eliminates the need for such questions.

Current scientific findings so far support the Big Bang Theory. In principle everything after the Big Bang can be explained by science. That's why God is pushed back to reside 'before' Big Bang.

But, is there anything before Big Bang? Scientists don't know, and at this stage it seems unknowable. So you can imagine anything existed before the Big Bang and nobody can disprove it.

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

Check this thread out for a more detailed look into why you question is nonsensical.

http://www.thescienceforum.com/Why-a...-God-3783t.php

Jan.

Our tiny minds did not evolve to consider the creation of the universe just like our bodies cannot achieve escape velocity [from the earth] by their own power, [ok so that's a frivolous comparison]. What ever the cause of the big bang it [to us] only happened once, before recorded history, there is no comparison, no repeat experiment. Science relies on the repeatability of experiments or multiple observations to form laws - the big bang is not something to be exerimented with, observations have given us a hypothesis but I think that will be as far as it ever goes.

If we are ever able to find (or be found by) extra-terrestrial life, I think their first question of us would be "Have you guys worked out what happened before the big bang? - cos we can't get get back past it!"

Our first question would be "Where's God live?" - at which point they'ed dissappear muttering something about, "let's try again in a million years or two".

Originally Posted by Pendragon

I don't think you really answer our questions. How can nothing have 'needs' and act on them? How can something come from nothing ("nothing became god")? How does this solve the problem that we don't know what happened before the Big Bang?

In my opinion the only reasonable thing to say is that we absolutely don't know this, and that a hypothesis (creationism) which adds a speculation (god) to a theory (big bang), has only decreased the value of that theory.
Creationists often propose that whether there was a god before the big bang or not is their word against the word of 'science', but I disagree. If an idea is not logical (involving 'getting something from nothing' for example) then it can savely be rejected as nonsense.

I wouldn't say they should be rejected. Haha... I think you have it backwards. The original theory was God and the specualtion was the Big Bang. On the topic of creationism vs. evolution they both seem equally illogical to me. Is it possible that evolution is creationism? Meaning in our (life's) attempt to evolve we create new things. Nothing should be rejected and, to me, it is illogical to think that the answer is logical or that there is in fact an answer.

dabob wrote

On the topic of creationism vs. evolution they both seem equally illogical to me. Is it possible that evolution is creationism? Meaning in our (life's) attempt to evolve we create new things. Nothing should be rejected and, to me, it is illogical to think that the answer is logical or that there is in fact an answer.

I think you do not understand evolution theory well enough. The theory is based on solid logic, while creationism is based on solid faith. New life forms were not created by evolution, they were created by random mutation. A lot of them were eliminated by better-fit neighbours. When you say we create new things by the attempt to evolve, it mechanism looks like Lamarck theory, which is already disproved.

Originally Posted by prasit

dabob wrote

On the topic of creationism vs. evolution they both seem equally illogical to me. Is it possible that evolution is creationism? Meaning in our (life's) attempt to evolve we create new things. Nothing should be rejected and, to me, it is illogical to think that the answer is logical or that there is in fact an answer.

I think you do not understand evolution theory well enough. The theory is based on solid logic, while creationism is based on solid faith. New life forms were not created by evolution, they were created by random mutation. A lot of them were eliminated by better-fit neighbours. When you say we create new things by the attempt to evolve, it mechanism looks like Lamarck theory, which is already disproved.

If I may redirect you to a different thread and answer you there.

http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...?p=47805#47805

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

There is a God don't just pretend there is one there is one. If you say give me proof well here is proof. He made you and how do you think man started. you think that there was a boy babey and a girl babey thats not true. God made adam and he was not a babey he was grown up.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

There is a God don't just pretend there is one there is one. If you say give me proof well here is proof. He made you and how do you think man started. you think that there was a boy babey and a girl babey thats not true. God made adam and he was not a babey he was grown up.

again, you making the statement doesn't make it true. That is not proof, that is an opinion


god was created by man, its a man made idea, that caught on with certain people and in the early days spread with violence and fear

An antecedent does not provide proof, dabob.

[quote="DaBOB"]

Originally Posted by Pendragon

Nothing should be rejected

That's how people fill their heads full of crap and end up spouting TK, time travel etc, they are incapable of rejecting the impossible, irrational, illogical etc etc.

"Open your mind to the possibility of impossibility"

megabrain, you and "open mind" are like oil and water. :P

[quote=captaincaveman][quote=Ezra]

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

[quote="There is a God don't just pretend there is one there is one. If you say give me proof well here is proof. He made you and how do you think man started. you think that there was a boy babey and a girl babey thats not true. God made adam and he was not a babey he was grown up.[/quote]


again, you making the statement doesn't make it true. That is not proof, that is an opinion


[quote="god was created by man, its a man made idea, that caught on with certain people and in the early days spread with violence and fear [/quote]


He was not created by man God sent his only son Jesus and God was Jesus so he was half man and half God. But When he goes up to heaven he is no longer man he is God. Jesus and God are one.

Originally Posted by Ezra

He was not created by man God sent his only son Jesus and God was Jesus so he was half man and half God.

as lacking grammar wise as that is stupid, that statement has no evidence, and is is opinionated I could barf.

Here's a statement of equal value: The spaghetti monster sent his only begotten meatball to be eaten so that humans would survive. I have also been touched by his noodly appendage.

But When he goes up to heaven he is no longer man he is God. Jesus and God are one.

The meatball thus descended to equal status with the spaghetti monster, and they became...SPAGHETTI AND MEATBALLS!

Originally Posted by Megabrain

I think Ezra is ARZE backwards....

What? my are are not backwards stop joking around I am not playing ok.

[quote=Ezra][quote=captaincaveman][quote=Ezra]

Originally Posted by curiouskid

Ok..lets assume there is a god..do you think the ultimate power would ever wonder how HE was created or when? Do you think humans might appear as gods to some creatures...lets say..robots

[quote="There is a God don't just pretend there is one there is one. If you say give me proof well here is proof. He made you and how do you think man started. you think that there was a boy babey and a girl babey thats not true. God made adam and he was not a babey he was grown up.[/quote]


again, you making the statement doesn't make it true. That is not proof, that is an opinion

Originally Posted by "god was created by man, its a man made idea, that caught on with certain people and in the early days spread with violence and fear :D[/quote

He was not created by man God sent his only son Jesus and God was Jesus so he was half man and half God. But When he goes up to heaven he is no longer man he is God. Jesus and God are one.

no i still believe god is a man made idea to control the masses

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

[no i still believe god is a man made idea to control the masses

You just don't know thats all. Give me proof that God is a man.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

[no i still believe god is a man made idea to control the masses

You just don't know thats all. Give me proof that God is a man.

Man MADE IDEA. not a MAN. -.-.....

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Man MADE IDEA. not a MAN. -.-.....

Ha that's your proof

Ezra, If I confess all my sins [however bad] and turn to jesus for guidance will I go to heaven?

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Man MADE IDEA. not a MAN. -.-.....

Ha that's your proof

Thats my belief. thats all the proof i need right

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Ezra, If I confess all my sins [however bad] and turn to jesus for guidance will I go to heaven?

Yes you have to pray and take up the cross daily and get rid of your tv and don't do nothing against the ten comandments.

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Thats my belief. thats all the proof i need right

NO thats not even proof you moron.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Thats my belief. thats all the proof i need right

NO thats not even proof you moron.

well it works for you with the bible, an insult again from one of gods chosen few

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Thats my belief. thats all the proof i need right

NO thats not even proof you moron.

well it works for you with the bible, an insult again from one of gods chosen few

hahahhahah laugh all you want because your going to hell wathc.

Ive finished this conversation now. Its pointless

Originally Posted by captaincaveman

Ive finished this conversation now. Its pointless

you can say that again.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

Ezra, If I confess all my sins [however bad] and turn to jesus for guidance will I go to heaven?

Yes you have to pray and take up the cross daily and get rid of your tv and don't do nothing against the ten comandments.

So if Saddam Hussain confessed and turned to Jesus just before he died, he will go to heaven, even having been responsible for the deaths of many..

Whereas I a mere atheist, who has travelled through life not harming any, generally behaving myself, and not killing anybody will NOT go to heaven if I continue my atheist ways, fascinating.

Nope he will go to hell. Because all he wanted is land and war. But God already gave him a seconed chance but he wasted it.

Hats off to Curiouskid! He has come up with a great question! If WE did not invent God, then who DID create Him? I never thought to ask that before!

So, what is the answer?

If He always existed, then why not the universe as well? In other words, why did it have to be “created” since it probably always existed. Even the “big bang” had to be preceeded by a contracting universe.

Yes, and God would not know who created him! Or would he?


Charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com

Orson Scott Card, a famous LDS science fiction writer, wrote an interesting short story called "Mortal Gods", in his book Cruel Miracles, where aliens came to earth from all over the galaxy to worship us because we have one thing which they do not, death.

Originally Posted by Mortal Gods, by Orson Scott Card

"What else would we worship, Mr. Crane? While we don't discount the possibility of invisible gods, we really never have invented any. We never died, so why dream of immortality? Here we found a people who knew how to worship, and for the first time we found awakened in us a desire to do homage to superior beings."

And Willard noticed his heartbeat, realized that it would stop while the alien had no heart, had nothing that would ever end. "Superior, hell."

"We," said the alien, "remember everything, from the first stirrings of intellect to the present. When we are 'born,' so to speak, we have no need of teachers. We have never learned to write--merely to exchange RNA. We have never learned to create beauty to outlast our lives because nothing outlasts our lives. We live to see all our works crumble. Here, Mr. Crane, we have found a race that builds for the sheer joy of building, that creates beauty, that writes books, that invents the lives of never-known people to delight others who know they are being lied to, a race that devises immortal gods to worship and celebrates its own mortality with immense pomp and glory. Death is the foundation of all that is great about humanity, Mr. Crane."

Perhaps we are God's "god" and He created us for Him to worship (love with all of His being) not because we are superior to Him but because of our limitations and frailties enable us to strive for something greater and in doing so inspire Him.

Originally Posted by charles brough

If WE did not invent God, then who DID create Him? I never thought to ask that before!

God Never had a beginning he is a soul. He excited even when he created the earth

Originally Posted by charles brough

If He always existed, then why not the universe as well? In other words, why did it have to be “created” since it probably always existed. Even the “big bang” had to be preceeded by a contracting universe.

The earth didn't always existed read genesis and you will find the answer.

Originally Posted by charles brough

Yes, and God would not know who created him! Or would he?

You repeted that again. If you want to know look up.

Originally Posted by Mortal Gods, by Orson Scott Card

Perhaps we are God's "god" and He created us for Him to worship (love with all of His being) not because we are superior to Him but because of our limitations and frailties enable us to strive for something greater and in doing so inspire Him.

We are not gods. He didn't create us so he can worship us. He created us so we can worship him. Why would he worship us because we are not perfect God is perfect.

Ezra wrote:

We are not gods. He didn't create us so he can worship us. He created us so we can worship him.

1. He failed.
2. He is an egomaniac

egomaniac (Plural: egomaniacs)
A person obsessed with their own (supposed) importance.

Originally Posted by Ezra

We are not gods. He didn't create us so he can worship us. He created us so we can worship him. Why would he worship us because we are not perfect God is perfect.

Just like the aliens in the story, on the face of it, it might seem that they are superior to us in every way. Not only do they live forever, but their long life means that they can live through the long voyages required to travel from one star to another. But in the story, these aliens do see something worthy of worship in human beings that has nothing to do with such standards of superiority.

Ok let me ask you this. Why do we love an infant child so much. This question is not for these atheists who will simply point to biological impulses but for you who belief in so much more that this. The infant child is helpless. It makes no art. Nor is it capable of contributing anything of great value to our society. It screams for attention and produces nothing but the most foul excrement, and yet we hold them as more precious than anyone else, dont we?

God loves us in the same way. You say that He does not worship us. And yet.... We lie about Him, ridicule Him and abuse His name, and what does He do in response? He comes down earth as a man so we could mock Him in person, treat Him as criminal, whip Him to within an inch of His life while laughing at Him, then nail Him to a piece of wood until His life expires. Why would He do such a thing? Why would He endure such treatment from us? If the kind of love I see in what He did is not worship, then I do not know what is.

Originally Posted by prasit

Ezra wrote:

He created us so we can worship him.

1. He failed.
2. He is an egomaniac

egomaniac (Plural: egomaniacs)
A person obsessed with their own (supposed) importance.

Yes what a conceit it is that some people have that an infinite all powerful and all knowing God should take any notice of or have need or desire for the worship of such pathetic disgusting creatures as us human beings. But, if that was His purpose, I cannot understand at all why He is having such a difficult time acheiving His goal.

er..

If God created us (in his own image) and we are er.. not perfect, then god is not perfect either.

Mega Brain is correct.

But for who is gods god, I AM

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by Ezra

We are not gods. He didn't create us so he can worship us. He created us so we can worship him. Why would he worship us because we are not perfect God is perfect.

Just like the aliens in the story, on the face of it, it might seem that they are superior to us in every way. Not only do they live forever, but their long life means that they can live through the long voyages required to travel from one star to another. But in the story, these aliens do see something worthy of worship in human beings that has nothing to do with such standards of superiority.

Ok let me ask you this. Why do we love an infant child so much. This question is not for these atheists who will simply point to biological impulses but for you who belief in so much more that this. The infant child is helpless. It makes no art. Nor is it capable of contributing anything of great value to our society. It screams for attention and produces nothing but the most foul excrement, and yet we hold them as more precious than anyone else, dont we?

God loves us in the same way. You say that He does not worship us. And yet.... We lie about Him, ridicule Him and abuse His name, and what does He do in response? He comes down earth as a man so we could mock Him in person, treat Him as criminal, whip Him to within an inch of His life while laughing at Him, then nail Him to a piece of wood until His life expires. Why would He do such a thing? Why would He endure such treatment from us? If the kind of love I see in what He did is not worship, then I do not know what is.

Originally Posted by prasit

Ezra wrote:

He created us so we can worship him.

1. He failed.
2. He is an egomaniac

egomaniac (Plural: egomaniacs)
A person obsessed with their own (supposed) importance.

Yes what a conceit it is that some people have that an infinite all powerful and all knowing God should take any notice of or have need or desire for the worship of such pathetic disgusting creatures as us human beings. But, if that was His purpose, I cannot understand at all why He is having such a difficult time acheiving His goal.

They think they are precious but they are not we were all born sin. God loves us he does not worship us. I told you already we have to worship God thats what he made us to do that is are goal.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

er..

If God created us (in his own image) and we are er.. not perfect, then god is not perfect either.

God is perfect. He came down to earth and he didn't sin. Man is evil because they disobey God so we are not perfect because we disobeyed God. Adam and eve were worshiping the Lord and then they started to eat the apple and turned them to sin now we are sinners.


Mod edit: contents of second post added here - Megabrain.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Mega Brain is correct.

But for who is gods god, I AM

You are not God.

Originally Posted by Ezra

God is perfect.

GOd is a perfect figment of your imagination.

Originally Posted by Ezra

He came down to earth and he didn't sin.

What is this 'down to earth' expression, you really ought to catch up on physics, in space there is do up,down! - there is only 'here' and 'there'

Originally Posted by Ezra

Man is evil because they disobey God

Who is this 'they'.

Originally Posted by Ezra

so we are not perfect because we disobeyed God.

How can we disobey your imaginary friend?

Originally Posted by Ezra

Adam and eve were worshiping the Lord and then they started to eat the apple and turned them to sin now we are sinners.

He's blaming on the apples!

Originally Posted by prasit

Ezra wrote:

We are not gods. He didn't create us so he can worship us. He created us so we can worship him.

1. He failed.
2. He is an egomaniac

egomaniac (Plural: egomaniacs)
A person obsessed with their own (supposed) importance.

He didn't fail this is all his plan because God knows everything that is going to happen next.

MOD EDIT: contents of second post added here. Megabrain
Ok let me tell you something megabrain. If God did not exist then we will all be dead got that. The they is us. And I am not imaginationing things got that. so here is a qoestion for you. There was nothing in space just empty there was know atoms or nothing so how did the big bang apper? Plus I am not blamming the apples when they ate the apple they wanted to be God then they started disobeying God and after that they were kicked out of the garden then they had babies then they were evil too. and stop saying imagination God is real you just don't want to listion your just plane stupid.

Ezra, STOP double posting. Use the EDIT button. This is your THIRD warning from me. Since you wont bother to notice the ample PM's, I'll tell you publically. Stop now.

And plus the big bang theory is wrong they say it was billion of years when God didn't even creat the earth at that time then you said another million years past then life appered out of know were. How did the plants grow because animals just can make a baby out of plants there weren't any seeds anywere.

MOD EDIT: content of second post pasted here - Megabrain.

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

Ezra, STOP double posting. Use the EDIT button. This is your THIRD warning from me. Since you wont bother to notice the ample PM's, I'll tell you publically. Stop now.

What I didn't double post what are you talking about?

You did it again. Double post = two posts in a row. I'm reporting you to the admin as of now.

P.S: Okay, no more off topic posts. I'll delete further ones. PM megabrain or someone else, I'm going to be moving and I wont be online.

Mitch wrote:

He comes down earth as a man so we could mock Him in person, treat Him as criminal, whip Him to within an inch of His life while laughing at Him, then nail Him to a piece of wood until His life expires. Why would He do such a thing? Why would He endure such treatment from us? If the kind of love I see in what He did is not worship, then I do not know what is.

It looks like a masochist to me.

masochist noun: someone who obtains pleasure from receiving punishment

Ezra wrote:

God is perfect. He came down to earth and he didn't sin. Man is evil because they disobey God so we are not perfect because we disobeyed God.

A perfect entity created imperfect entities; how come?. The imperfection is named sin and the entities must repent; whose fault it is?

And plus the big bang theory is wrong they say it was billion of years when God didn't even creat the earth at that time then you said another million years past then life appered out of know were. How did the plants grow because animals just can make a baby out of plants there weren't any seeds anywere.

When you have this kind of belief it is hard to take your other beiefs seriously.
May be you should start a thread named "evidence that earth is less than 50,000 years old" and debate based on real evidence and scientific facts.

Originally Posted by prasit

Mitch wrote:

He comes down earth as a man so we could mock Him in person, treat Him as criminal, whip Him to within an inch of His life while laughing at Him, then nail Him to a piece of wood until His life expires. Why would He do such a thing? Why would He endure such treatment from us? If the kind of love I see in what He did is not worship, then I do not know what is.

It looks like a masochist to me.

masochist noun: someone who obtains pleasure from receiving punishment

Hmmmm.... Could it be that all parents are basically massochists?

I am not right the other guy is because I am just a beginner at this stuff. But my brother know even more then me.

I'm not sure what "stuff" you're talking about in terms of being a beginner- but do yourself a favor and don't just believe what people tell you. Dig a little deeper and come to your own conclusions about topics like this. They won't always agree with your parents, pastor, or friends but that's how it goes.
The scientific consensus is what it is for a reason - figure out what that reason is before you decide that it's wrong, or you'll never know what you're talking about.

Maybe god is a masochist, .......... THATS! why he created atheists.

mitch wrote:

Hmmmm.... Could it be that all parents are basically massochists?

Parents do not let their children whip them, stab them, hang them and left them bleeding to death.

Originally Posted by prasit

mitch wrote:

Hmmmm.... Could it be that all parents are basically massochists?

Parents do not let their children whip them, stab them, hang them and left them bleeding to death.

Really? Then all the people who have done these things are orphans, I did not know that.

No... wait a minute. I seem to remember a Biblical story of Cain and Abel... I know for sure that they were not orphans. Do you know this story?

No, I do not know the story of Cain and Abel and don't know how relevant it is to this discussion. I just think that it is a strage way to express love to your love one. "whip me please.." "Ah...harder" "See how much I love you...Aghhh..."

Originally Posted by prasit

No, I do not know the story of Cain and Abel and don't know how relevant it is to this discussion. I just think that it is a strage way to express love to your love one. "whip me please.." "Ah...harder" "See how much I love you...Aghhh..."

Hmmm... I cannot imagine it. Do you have personal experience with this?

Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

Originally Posted by prasit

No, I do not know the story of Cain and Abel and don't know how relevant it is to this discussion. I just think that it is a strage way to express love to your love one. "whip me please.." "Ah...harder" "See how much I love you...Aghhh..."

Hmmm... I cannot imagine it. Do you have personal experience with this?

No Mitch, please don't go there - at least not in religion... :wink:

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

er..

If God created us (in his own image) and we are er.. not perfect, then god is not perfect either.

God is perfect. He came down to earth and he didn't sin. Man is evil because they disobey God so we are not perfect because we disobeyed God. Adam and eve were worshiping the Lord and then they started to eat the apple and turned them to sin now we are sinners.


Mod edit: contents of second post added here - Megabrain.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Mega Brain is correct.

But for who is gods god, I AM

You are not God.

You cant prove it
And since you cant prove god and decied to belive in him anyway there is no reason why you shouldnt belive in my bieng god then

mitch wrote:

Hmmm... I cannot imagine it. Do you have personal experience with this?

According to what you wrote in this thread, this is your god's personal experience.

Originally Posted by Zelos

You are not God.

You cant prove it
And since you cant prove god and decied to belive in him anyway there is no reason why you shouldnt belive in my bieng god then

That's an interesting point. There's no more evidence for God to exist at all than there is against Zelos being God. It might be wise to start worshipping him. Zelos, do you have any churches? Any special rules we should know about, or Great Truths you want to reveal?

Well then, it seems to me to be a choice of eternal damnation or an eternity by zelos's side, (watching?) beautiful women dressed in short nightys. :-D I know who my god is.

All hail zelos!

BTW zelos, o great one, how do i become a saint ? St Cat 8) has a nice ring to it.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Megabrain

er..

If God created us (in his own image) and we are er.. not perfect, then god is not perfect either.

God is perfect. He came down to earth and he didn't sin. Man is evil because they disobey God so we are not perfect because we disobeyed God. Adam and eve were worshiping the Lord and then they started to eat the apple and turned them to sin now we are sinners.


Mod edit: contents of second post added here - Megabrain.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Mega Brain is correct.

But for who is gods god, I AM

You are not God.

You cant prove it
And since you cant prove god and decied to belive in him anyway there is no reason why you shouldnt belive in my bieng god then

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

Please correct me if im wrong.
I thought jesus healed the blind.
Also, i thought it was a bit more than a thousand years.

Originally Posted by Cat1981(England)

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

Please correct me if im wrong.
I thought jesus healed the blind.
Also, i thought it was a bit more than a thousand years.

Yeah but I am not going to say billions and billions of years because thats what atheist say. And yes God healed the blind. Thats what I said already what kind of question is that.

Originally Posted by prasit

mitch wrote:

Hmmm... I cannot imagine it. Do you have personal experience with this?

According to what you wrote in this thread, this is your god's personal experience.

Dont be ridiculous. That is your image (from your collection of images). I have no such image. I think you are being willfully dishonest and rude, for I sincerely doubt that you cannot tell the difference between sacrificial efforts to save people and sexual perversion. The fact that images of sexual perversion come to your mind tells us more about you than anything else. Do you have something similarly rude to say about the rescue workers who died in the Twin Towers trying to save people on 9/11? Just because someone is not satisfied by sitting on the sidelines while they make cold calculations about who has a decent chance of surviving, does not give you the right to cast aspersions on their morality.

Lets look at the context of this little drama shall we? Ezra claims that it is not possible that God could worship human beings. So I remind him of the attitude that people have about smelly selfish little babies, and point out what He apparently believes that God did for our sake; the point being that like the story I introduced, an object of worship does not have to be superior in every way and possibly not superior in any way.

To your suggestion that what we believe Jesus did is a bit massochistic, I asked you if all parents are such. To which you make the logical error that suggests that people who do evil and people who suffer have no parents. And the best that you can do in response to my pointing this out is to compare the mistreatment of Jesus to sexual perversion. How should I response to such an illogical jump except to think you must have some preoccupation with such perversions yourself.

Is it your habit of pretending to win arguments by throwing out rude comments to turn the discussion into a screaming match? Let's stop the bad tactics of rhetoric and pursue the discussion honestly. Do you blame the parents of the rescue workers for what happened to them? Would you lock your adult son in a room to prevent him from becoming a rescue worker? Or try these question on for size: how should a parent with absolute power raise their children? Are the children with parents that have a greater power to protect them always better off than those who have less power?

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok athiest i got a question for you. Why are bird or different kind of animals are not making another animal they should be doing that right now but all i see its just almost like making another copy of itself but it might be smater. Give me proof if you say that they still do that.

OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC!

I object! Start another thread or find a more appropriate one!

OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC! OFF TOPIC!

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Originally Posted by Zelos

You are not God.

You cant prove it
And since you cant prove god and decied to belive in him anyway there is no reason why you shouldnt belive in my bieng god then

That's an interesting point. There's no more evidence for God to exist at all than there is against Zelos being God. It might be wise to start worshipping him. Zelos, do you have any churches? Any special rules we should know about, or Great Truths you want to reveal?

Nope, begin contructing one and we got one that is real and not fake like all other churches

As for rules, live life and be happy, and of course do as i say all the time XD

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

well thats nothing, especially since it was 2 tousand years ago and os probably now so distorted from the facts back then by time and will that it really didnt happen.

A real miracle is bieng able to talk to a complete morron and not using the hands as they just get dummer and dummer.

Ok athiest i got a question for you. Why are bird or different kind of animals are not making another animal they should be doing that right now but all i see its just almost like making another copy of itself but it might be smater. Give me proof if you say that they still do that.

Here is a miracle that i dont take my godly powers and zap you XD
They are making new specieses all the time. Its just often so slow you dont see it but in a few cases its been observed a species becoming 2. Scientists have even been able to force this kind of evolution on flies so its been experimently confirmed.

Not stop defying me, your god , and accept facts

Mitch wrote:

Is it your habit of pretending to win arguments by throwing out rude comments to turn the discussion into a screaming match? Let's stop the bad tactics of rhetoric and pursue the discussion honestly. Do you blame the parents of the rescue workers for what happened to them? Would you lock your adult son in a room to prevent him from becoming a rescue worker? Or try these question on for size: how should a parent with absolute power raise their children? Are the children with parents that have a greater power to protect them always better off than those who have less power?

First of all I apologize for offending you. I have no intention to be dishonest, although I admit that I did cross the line.
The miscommunication here is the interpretation of symbolic. You compare god to the parents of rescue worker, who sent his son, the rescue worker to do a noble job, even though he know that his son will probably suffer. I interpreted Jesus as god incarnated into human form, letting himself being tortured by the romans, who were god sons (because god created all of us). So in my interpretation it is like the father intentionally let his son hurt him, because he loved his son so much. That may make sense to christians but it is not to me.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

That's not how Zelos works, Ezra. You can't actually SEE the miracles today but you're in luck. I have a very detailed journal which describes the many miracles Zelos performed last year. I'd be happy to email it to you and after reading it, I'm sure we'd all then agree that Zelos is indeed God.

Please stay on topic - no flaming, ad-hominems Multi-posts etc If you find your post has been deleted it will be because it breached this request - I will not edit parts of a post in this thread anymore, just delete the whole post if I consider it is a breach of this request.

You can't actually SEE the miracles today but you're in luck. I have a very detailed journal which describes the many miracles Zelos performed last year. I'd be happy to email it to you and after reading it, I'm sure we'd all then agree that Zelos is indeed God.

Your wrong.. you CAN SEE the miracles performed by God today. whether or not you want to believe that they really happen is up to you.. If you want stories/examples of miracles let me know..

Infact Christianity holds two records in the worlds book of records for unexplainable miracles.

Originally Posted by prasit

You compare god to the parents of rescue worker, who sent his son, the rescue worker to do a noble job, even though he know that his son will probably suffer. I interpreted Jesus as god incarnated into human form, letting himself being tortured by the romans, who were god sons (because god created all of us). So in my interpretation it is like the father intentionally let his son hurt him, because he loved his son so much. That may make sense to christians but it is not to me.

I only made that comparison with rescue workers because you made a similar comparison about a parent allowing something to happen to their son. The comparison of what Jesus did with the usual sort of things that people do, will not work obviously, because if that is all that Jesus did there would be no Christianity. I can only think of a couple of comparisons with anything that people have done.

One is Socrates who followed the dictates of his society to drink a cup of poison to carry out a sentence of execution. We see in this, a man who would stand up for his convictions no matter what the cost rather than running away from them. I, in fact, believe that it is the cup of Socrates that Jesus was refering to when He said in His prayer in the Garden (Matthew 26:39), "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." Another comparison can be found in the passive resistance by Ghandi, where so many died because they refuse to comply with the unjust rule of the British. These self-sacrificial events have been the most powerful events in history for changing the behavior of human beings.

If a man's/woman's children are shooting at each other, is it impossible to imagine a parent interposing himself/herself between them. Even if the parent dies, it is possible that the children may change their behavior because of it. The case of Jesus was not very dissimilar, since the conflict between the Hebrew zealots and the Roman empire is what crushed and killed Jesus, and would eventually cause Jerusalem to be razed to the ground only about 37 years later. Jesus tried to change the direction of the insane fervor of the zealots, and yet the colaborators in Jeruselem basically executed Him as a zealot, trying to appease Rome. That is of course only one tiny aspect of the story, but it is true nevertheless.

In any case, by doing what He did, Jesus made a very clear demonstration of what the pattern of human behavior would do to any person who stands up for goodness and love. And because it was God Himself who did this, then rather than simply being another injustice to lay at the feet of God in accusation, this event is the basis of reconcilliation between man and God. However, it is Christian doctrine that although Jesus was God, He was also completely human in every respect: both the redeeming hand of God and the shining example for all men to follow. To say that this all makes perfect sense to Christians would be an exaggeration. It is the Christian experience of redemption in the the knowledge of this event which comes first, while the comprehension of why this event has such power is much more difficult.

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

That's not how Zelos works, Ezra. You can't actually SEE the miracles today but you're in luck. I have a very detailed journal which describes the many miracles Zelos performed last year. I'd be happy to email it to you and after reading it, I'm sure we'd all then agree that Zelos is indeed God.

Uh i don't even know what are you talking about

Mitch wrote:

If a man's/woman's children are shooting at each other, is it impossible to imagine a parent interposing himself/herself between them. Even if the parent dies, it is possible that the children may change their behavior because of it. The case of Jesus was not very dissimilar, since the conflict between the Hebrew zealots and the Roman empire is what crushed and killed Jesus, and would eventually cause Jerusalem to be razed to the ground only about 37 years later.

Oh.. I used to think that Jesus went on to be crucified in order to relieve the sin the adam and eve committed by eating apple. So actually he (who was god reincarnated) was trying to reconcile the conflict between Hebrew zealots and Roman empire, and failed.
Thanks for sharing the information, although I find it hard to digest and understand it. Probably due to the differences in cultures.

Originally Posted by Ezra

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Originally Posted by Ezra

Ok show me some miracles if your god. God healed the blind and we don't even have the technology to do that and that was like a thousand years ago.

That's not how Zelos works, Ezra. You can't actually SEE the miracles today but you're in luck. I have a very detailed journal which describes the many miracles Zelos performed last year. I'd be happy to email it to you and after reading it, I'm sure we'd all then agree that Zelos is indeed God.

Uh i don't even know what are you talking about

What he is saying is taht he got a record of miracles ive done
But your belife is wrong therefor i havent blessed you with that information

Your wrong.. you CAN SEE the miracles performed by God today. whether or not you want to believe that they really happen is up to you.. If you want stories/examples of miracles let me know..

Infact Christianity holds two records in the worlds book of records for unexplainable miracles.

just as Neutrino said. But the christian version is flawed

Well to the fact, give exemples of this miracles and lets see if we can dismantel them and see if they are really miracles or just silly belives like a childs imaginary friend

I would like to reintroduce this question of whether we can say that God's God is us human beings. Now I am surprised the atheists in this forum have not seized upon this idea to say, "yes, we human beings are God's God because we created Him." Obviously since I am not an atheist, I am not suggesting anything like this.

Ezra has suggested that man was created by God so that we could worship Him, but this traditional idea falls flat a bit, for it is hard to imagine why any superior being would be so motivated and why He would fail so spectularly as well. But is the opposite possible? Is it possible that God created man so that He may worship us? It is a bizarre twist from traditional thought and strange enough to be true. So to pursue this, lets consider the definition of worship.

Originally Posted by Merriam Webster's Online

1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

It is of course only in the sense of the 4th definition that we could say that God created man that He may worship him, although the difference between 2 and 4 may be somewhat circumstantial. In a discussion on the christianforums.com entitled "Worship", asking what is worship, I suggested that rather than being a matter of ritual, the worship of God should be more like number 4, embodied in the so called first and great commandment to love God with all of your heart, soul and mind. I quoted Isaiha chapter 1 where God even spurned empty ritualistic worship (sacrifices) as wearying, futile and even abomination. Of course in the context, what really vexed God was that such worship was just a cover for evil deeds, and He said that He would much prefer the defense of justice and care for the unfortunate.

But nevertheless I think that worship, rather than being represented by ritual, is really represented by reverence, respect and admiration (i.e. love). But then it seems to me that there is ample evidence for the idea that it is we human beings who are the object of the reverence, respect and admiration (love) of God. This fact can even be found in Isaiha chapter 1, and Jesus said many times, "if you love me then love one another." Could it be that the true worship of God can be found in a reverence for life, respect for our fellow man, and admiration everything that God has created. Of course this idea of God's worship of man must have some caution, for much of the behavior of human beings is not the proper object of reverence by anyone, God or man. So I think that part of it is that God can see our potential even when we cannot and it for that greater potential He sees within us that He loves us.

Originally Posted by prasit

Mitch wrote:

If a man's/woman's children are shooting at each other, is it impossible to imagine a parent interposing himself/herself between them. Even if the parent dies, it is possible that the children may change their behavior because of it. The case of Jesus was not very dissimilar, since the conflict between the Hebrew zealots and the Roman empire is what crushed and killed Jesus, and would eventually cause Jerusalem to be razed to the ground only about 37 years later.

Oh.. I used to think that Jesus went on to be crucified in order to relieve the sin the adam and eve committed by eating apple. So actually he (who was god reincarnated) was trying to reconcile the conflict between Hebrew zealots and Roman empire, and failed.
Thanks for sharing the information, although I find it hard to digest and understand it. Probably due to the differences in cultures.

I did not say anything like that. There were many zealots were among His disciples and they wanted Him to lead a revolution (become king), but Jesus refused and told parables that make sense when you see that they are aimed at the zealots (like Luke 14:31). Regardless of why God came to earth, this was the circumstances where He participated as a man in history. Jesus tried to turn the zealots from this path of destruction, but that is not why He came. Jesus healed the sick, but that is not why He came either. But God did come among us to serve us. So Jesus did not say, "I am God, bow down and worship me." Instead He washed the feet of His disciples and said, he who is greatest in the kingdom of heaven is the one who serves most. One does not teach such a thing unless one lives it first.

Originally Posted by Mark 10:43-45

But Jesus called them to Himself and said to them. "You know that those who are considered rulers over the Gentiles lord it over them and their great ones exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to be come great among you shall be your servant. And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. For even the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Yes God came among us to bring reconcilliation between God and man, to restore the natural relationship that all living things have with God, but which Adam and Eve rebelled against and rejected. But Jesus did many other things on the earth, as well.

"yes, we human beings are God's God because we created Him."

now its said/quoted by a atheist and that is acctually the truth, deal with it and live on

I believe that God is the highest and that nothing is over him. God doesn't have a God because God would have had to make him. Now, one thing that I don't have a good answer to is "How did God come to be?" I don't know if anybody has a good answer to that. If you do have an answer, please tell me.

Since we are the only species that worships a God I suggest he comes from our imagination or longing. I think it's nothing less than bloody arrogant for religious people to preach that God gave us [the human species] the world to rule - or for that matter the universe. To suggest that all other living creatures are there for man's benefit is crap.

I agree. It is stated that humans and animals are given plants to eat, not other creatures.

Originally Posted by lurker

I believe that God is the highest and that nothing is over him. God doesn't have a God because God would have had to make him. Now, one thing that I don't have a good answer to is "How did God come to be?" I don't know if anybody has a good answer to that. If you do have an answer, please tell me.

Answer: He came to be when humanity couldnt answer some questions
Now you got it live with it

I agree. It is stated that humans and animals are given plants to eat, not other creatures.

That is incorrect. Your teeth and digestion system is all accoridng to a meat eater and therefor shall eat meat. Its foolish to not eat meat according to your own genetical structure.

Animals exist to be. We use them cause we want them but they dont exist to serve us. But if they do exist they might just as well serve us