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Thread: Is god really exist or not? !! i know its very common question.

  1. #201  
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    You simply "don't know better". Metaphysics is not a philosophy but a science. It is very advanced in its own right. You have to simply see it working in order to believe it. If you are interested in finding out exactly how it works and then actually making it work, I can PM the name to you.
    Show me some metaphysics research (just punched another person thanks to that) published in a peer-reviewed journal. It has to have one of those fancy-ass made up words your were slinging around earlier, too. Past life regression or something equally ludicrous will work.

    Truth be told, I don't mind the fact that you appear to be completely insane. What I mind is you coming in here pretending that those of us who worked our butts off to become legitimate scientists are beneath you because you believe in unicorns. It's insulting.
    Strange, seagypsy, PhDemon and 1 others like this.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If I told you about a book on Meta Physics that really proves the existence of not god but of a form of energy that the universe is comprised of, would you be interested in knowing about it.
    What instruments can we use to measure this energy?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    You forgot pseudo-intellectual, Dunning-Kruger a-holes...
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined.bTraditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
    What is there?
    What is it like?
    A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysicist [4] or a metaphysician.[5] The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and their properties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into the basic categories of being and how they relate to each other. Another central branch of metaphysics is cosmology, the study of the totality of all phenomena within the universe.
    Prior to the modern history of science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as natural philosophy. Originally, the term "science" (Latin scientia) simply meant "knowledge". The scientific method, however, transformed natural philosophy into an empirical activity deriving from experiment unlike the rest of philosophy. By the end of the 18th century, it had begun to be called "SCIENCE" to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics denoted philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence.nSome philosophers of science, such as the neo-positivists, say that natural science rejects the study of metaphysics, while other philosophers of science strongly disagree.

    Read SCIENCE in upper case letters.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    As a scientist you should be willing to accept the truth.
    No, as a scientist one should, provisionally, accept things based on objective, reproducible evidence. Not because someone says, "It's the Truth! I read it in a Book! (but I'm not telling you which one)."

    Yet more evidence you don't have a clue about science.

    Again ignore me at your own peril.
    Is that some sort of threat? Oooooh. I'm ssooooo scared ...


    Anyway, I thought you were leaving? Go and pollute some other forum.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    You simply "don't know better". Metaphysics is not a philosophy but a science. It is very advanced in its own right. You have to simply see it working in order to believe it. If you are interested in finding out exactly how it works and then actually making it work, I can PM the name to you.
    Show me some metaphysics research (just punched another person thanks to that) published in a peer-reviewed journal. It has to have one of those fancy-ass made up words your were slinging around earlier, too. Past life regression or something equally ludicrous will work.

    Truth be told, I don't mind the fact that you appear to be completely insane. What I mind is you coming in here pretending that those of us who worked our butts off to become legitimate scientists are beneath you because you believe in unicorns. It's insulting.
    Want proof?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    As a scientist you should be willing to accept the truth.
    No, as a scientist one should, provisionally, accept things based on objective, reproducible evidence. Not because someone says, "It's the Truth! I read it in a Book! (but I'm not telling you which one)."

    Yet more evidence you don't have a clue about science.

    Again ignore me at your own peril.
    Is that some sort of threat? Oooooh. I'm ssooooo scared ...


    Anyway, I thought you were leaving? Go and pollute some other forum.
    I could tell you if I could PM you.
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  7. #207  
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined.bTraditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
    What is there?
    What is it like?
    A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysicist [4] or a metaphysician.[5] The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and their properties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into the basic categories of being and how they relate to each other. Another central branch of metaphysics is cosmology, the study of the totality of all phenomena within the universe.
    Prior to the modern history of science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as natural philosophy. Originally, the term "science" (Latin scientia) simply meant "knowledge". The scientific method, however, transformed natural philosophy into an empirical activity deriving from experiment unlike the rest of philosophy. By the end of the 18th century, it had begun to be called "SCIENCE" to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics denoted philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence.nSome philosophers of science, such as the neo-positivists, say that natural science rejects the study of metaphysics, while other philosophers of science strongly disagree.

    Read SCIENCE in upper case letters.
    That's just a copy paste from Wikipedia. THAT'S how you conduct science?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Want proof?
    Proof? I'd settle for a modicum of intelligence.

    But go ahead. Wow me with your powers of science. Prove that metaphysics is something besides a go-to for the deranged.

    EDIT: And I don't want a PM. No real scientist is afraid to put his work on display. In fact, we tend to require it.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined.bTraditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
    What is there?
    What is it like?
    A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysicist [4] or a metaphysician.[5] The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and their properties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into the basic categories of being and how they relate to each other. Another central branch of metaphysics is cosmology, the study of the totality of all phenomena within the universe.
    Prior to the modern history of science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as natural philosophy. Originally, the term "science" (Latin scientia) simply meant "knowledge". The scientific method, however, transformed natural philosophy into an empirical activity deriving from experiment unlike the rest of philosophy. By the end of the 18th century, it had begun to be called "SCIENCE" to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics denoted philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence.nSome philosophers of science, such as the neo-positivists, say that natural science rejects the study of metaphysics, while other philosophers of science strongly disagree.

    Read SCIENCE in upper case letters.
    That's just a copy paste from Wikipedia. THAT'S how you conduct science?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Want proof?
    Proof? I'd settle for a modicum of intelligence.

    But go ahead. Wow me with your powers of science. Prove that metaphysics is something besides a go-to for the deranged.

    EDIT: And I don't want a PM. No real scientist is afraid to put his work on display. In fact, we tend to require it.
    Read that, don't just glibly dismiss it. And, shall I put the name up right now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    What I mind is you coming in here pretending that those of us who worked our butts off to become legitimate scientists are beneath you because you believe in unicorns. It's insulting.
    The fact he can't figure out how an ignore list works but still thinks he's smart and the fact he posts historical definitions cut and pasted from Wiki (quoted by FM) of modern concepts that have no relevance and don't support his arguments all suggest we have either a poster child for DK syndrome or a terminally stupid, credulous arse.
    Arsehole yourself, dude. Scientifically proven, historical concepts. I KEEP saying READ the books, and no one seems to want to listen.
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  10. #210  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Because it is a pathetic attempt to make philosophy into a hard science.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is not a philosophy but a science.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy
    You don't even realize how daft you look, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Read that, don't just glibly dismiss it. And, shall I put the name up right now?
    I don't dismiss Wiki. I happen to like Wiki.

    That having been said, it is not a citation you will ever see in a scientific paper.

    What I "glibly dismiss" is you.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Who all want the names of the books I am referring to?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Because it is a pathetic attempt to make philosophy into a hard science.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is not a philosophy but a science.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy
    You don't even realize how daft you look, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Read that, don't just glibly dismiss it. And, shall I put the name up right now?
    I don't dismiss Wiki. I happen to like Wiki.

    That having been said, it is not a citation you will ever see in a scientific paper.

    What I "glibly dismiss" is you.
    Naive, dogmatic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Naive, dogmatic.
    Typical deflection. You can't defend yourself, so you attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Who all want the names of the books I am referring to?
    No one wants the names of some crank books by some crank author with a degree from a shopping mall university.

    I think I can speak for the other people in this thread when I say that we want YOU to demonstrate YOUR knowledge of metaphysics to show us that it is legitimate.

    Let me make this easy for you by providing an example from some work I've done in the past.

    Let's say Farmer Bob has seen a spike in crop prices and is keen to sow more seed than he did last season. So, he takes his plow as far into a wetland on his property as he can. If I have to go out and determine where the wetland is, I might see a lack of vegetation or standing water and think, "Hey. There's no wetland here." But since I am a scientist, I can use an extremely advanced tool called a shovel and dig a data point (something the simple layman might call "a hole" [not to be confused with a similar hyphenated term which has been used to describe you]). I can use my knowledge of hydric soils and oxidation to determine that even tough there is no vegetation here, this piece of land is hydrologically functioning as a wetland. By plotting my points, I can even measure the size of the wetland. When I go back to my boss with my data, he's now prepared to face a construction company with plans to buy that farmer's plot and build a Wal-Mart. I can recommend a mitigation plan for that construction company. I get a cookie and my bi-weekly paycheck of $30 (I work for the state government, you see).

    That is a simple application of real science in the real world. And I didn't need to direct you to a library to show it to you.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world, although the term is not easily defined.bTraditionally, metaphysics attempts to answer two basic questions in the broadest possible terms:
    What is there?
    What is it like?
    A person who studies metaphysics is called a metaphysicist [4] or a metaphysician.[5] The metaphysician attempts to clarify the fundamental notions by which people understand the world, e.g., existence, objects and their properties, space and time, cause and effect, and possibility. A central branch of metaphysics is ontology, the investigation into the basic categories of being and how they relate to each other. Another central branch of metaphysics is cosmology, the study of the totality of all phenomena within the universe.
    Prior to the modern history of science, scientific questions were addressed as a part of metaphysics known as natural philosophy. Originally, the term "science" (Latin scientia) simply meant "knowledge". The scientific method, however, transformed natural philosophy into an empirical activity deriving from experiment unlike the rest of philosophy. By the end of the 18th century, it had begun to be called "SCIENCE" to distinguish it from philosophy. Thereafter, metaphysics denoted philosophical enquiry of a non-empirical character into the nature of existence.nSome philosophers of science, such as the neo-positivists, say that natural science rejects the study of metaphysics, while other philosophers of science strongly disagree.

    Read SCIENCE in upper case letters.
    a) You should making it clear what you have written and what you have copied (quoted) from somewhere else. Otherwise it looks like plagiarism.

    b) When quoting, it is usually a good idea to provide a reference to the source.

    c) You seem to have misunderstood. That paragraph is explaining that "science" refers to what used to be called natural philosophy, as opposed to metaphysics (which isn't science).
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Want proof?
    Just some evidence. (As you know, being such an expert, science doesn't deal with proof.)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    You simply "don't know better". Metaphysics is not a philosophy but a science. It is very advanced in its own right. You have to simply see it working in order to believe it. If you are interested in finding out exactly how it works and then actually making it work, I can PM the name to you.
    Show me some metaphysics research (just punched another person thanks to that) published in a peer-reviewed journal. It has to have one of those fancy-ass made up words your were slinging around earlier, too. Past life regression or something equally ludicrous will work.

    Truth be told, I don't mind the fact that you appear to be completely insane. What I mind is you coming in here pretending that those of us who worked our butts off to become legitimate scientists are beneath you because you believe in unicorns. It's insulting.
    Want proof?
    and he says he knows science. lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Naive, dogmatic.
    Typical deflection. You can't defend yourself, so you attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Who all want the names of the books I am referring to?
    No one wants the names of some crank books by some crank author with a degree from a shopping mall university.

    I think I can speak for the other people in this thread when I say that we want YOU to demonstrate YOUR knowledge of metaphysics to show us that it is legitimate.

    Let me make this easy for you by providing an example from some work I've done in the past.

    Let's say Farmer Bob has seen a spike in crop prices and is keen to sow more seed than he did last season. So, he takes his plow as far into a wetland on his property as he can. If I have to go out and determine where the wetland is, I might see a lack of vegetation or standing water and think, "Hey. There's no wetland here." But since I am a scientist, I can use an extremely advanced tool called a shovel and dig a data point (something the simple layman might call "a hole" [not to be confused with a similar hyphenated term which has been used to describe you]). I can use my knowledge of hydric soils and oxidation to determine that even tough there is no vegetation here, this piece of land is hydrologically functioning as a wetland. By plotting my points, I can even measure the size of the wetland. When I go back to my boss with my data, he's now prepared to face a construction company with plans to buy that farmer's plot and build a Wal-Mart. I can recommend a mitigation plan for that construction company. I get a cookie and my bi-weekly paycheck of $30 (I work for the state government, you see).

    That is a simple application of real science in the real world. And I didn't need to direct you to a library to show it to you.
    It's not deflection on my part, it's evasion on your part. Since when did Harvard become a shopping mall? The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It's not deflection on my part, it's evasion on your part. Since when did Harvard become a shopping mall? The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    Then (and I'm saying this with all the restraint against using the caps key that I can muster) show us.

    Stop quoting Wiki, claiming you own books, and trolling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It's not deflection on my part, it's evasion on your part. Since when did Harvard become a shopping mall? The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    Then (and I'm saying this with all the restraint against using the caps key that I can muster) show us.

    Stop quoting Wiki, claiming you own books, and trolling.
    Come to my house in India, and I will show you in real life. Or buy the book from Amazon, and try it out in your own home.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    You have to get the book from Amazon, and try it out for yourself at home. I can't do that sitting in India for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    It will be proven to you once you have seen it for yourself after applying the techniques from the book.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    You have to get the book from Amazon, and try it out for yourself at home. I can't do that sitting in India for you.
    So nothing objective, then? (After all your crap about "science")
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Going to sleep now. See you guys tomorrow. It is 02:46 AM in Delhi right now!! Time for light reading, light snacks and some cold water. Thirsty and hungry too!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    It will be proven to you once you have seen it for yourself after applying the techniques from the book.
    Since you're so knowledgeable, why not just tell us these techniques? Heck, I think we would be happy to hear a mere sentence or two describing them. Can you do that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mat5592 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The demonstration can be done in reality, not on the computer or on the internet.
    So nothing objective, then?
    It will be proven to you once you have seen it for yourself after applying the techniques from the book.
    Since you're so knowledgeable, why not just tell us these techniques? Heck, I think we would be happy to hear a mere sentence or two describing them. Can you do that?
    Remind me to do that first thing in the morning tomorrow itself....
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    Out of interest - what did you study at Harvard?
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    I am making a HUGE offer out here. I will pay and ship any book I can think of any where in the world at my own cost. Whosoever is interested can let me know asap....
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    I am making a HUGE offer out here. I will pay and ship any book I can think of any where in the world at my own cost. Whosoever is interested can let me know asap....
    Not sleepy any more then?
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Out of interest - what did you study at Harvard?
    Quantum Theory, String Theory, Neuroplasticity, Neurobionics, Bereitschaft Potential, Readiness Potential, RTMS, PLRT, DBS, TMS, etc, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    I am making a HUGE offer out here. I will pay and ship any book I can think of any where in the world at my own cost. Whosoever is interested can let me know asap....
    Not sleepy any more then?
    It is 03 AM here. Another hour atleast.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Out of interest - what did you study at Harvard?
    Quantum Theory, String Theory, Neuroplasticity, Neurobionics, Bereitschaft Potential, Readiness Potential, RTMS, PLRT, DBS, TMS, etc, etc.
    Some Psychiatry, much Psychology and Psychotherapy as well,, including CBT and ACT as well....
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Out of interest - what did you study at Harvard?
    Plus a distance course from IGNOU on various subjects as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Out of interest - what did you study at Harvard?
    On the practical side, I am a part of a team of therapists at a rehabilitation centre in my city. No workshops in the US yet.
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  36. #236  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    Anything to back up all of these claims? A picture of your degrees? Or a website for your "therapy" teams?

    On second thought, I don't know why I'm wasting seconds of my life that could be spent on something more valuable. Like learning Tuvan throat singing or finger painting.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Anything to back up all of these claims? A picture of your degrees? Or a website for your "therapy" teams?

    On second thought, I don't know why I'm wasting seconds of my life that could be spent on something more valuable. Like learning Tuvan throat singing or finger painting.
    http://www.hopefoundation.org.in
    HOPE Foundation | Because failure is not an option
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Walter Mitty Syndrome as well as Dunning-Kruger maybe?
    Likewise, dude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Walter Mitty Syndrome as well as Dunning-Kruger maybe?

    Dissociative disorders (DD) are conditions that involve disruptions or breakdowns of memory, awareness, identity or perception. People with dissociative disorders use dissociation, a defense mechanism, pathologically and involuntarily. Dissociative disorders are thought to primarily be caused by psychological trauma.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nope, my track record is there for all to see on the home page in my profile (look under past institutions for where I studied), I don't need to resort to making stuff up. Judging by your posts here if your claims are true Harvard's standards must have slipped dramatically.
    And what new technologies did I forget to mention that you may be knowing of??
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nope, my track record is there for all to see on the home page in my profile (look under past institutions for where I studied), I don't need to resort to making stuff up. Judging by your posts here if your claims are true Harvard's standards must have slipped dramatically.
    Seeing your profile, it is very limited. Only a PhD and an MRSC.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nope, my track record is there for all to see on the home page in my profile (look under past institutions for where I studied), I don't need to resort to making stuff up. Judging by your posts here if your claims are true Harvard's standards must have slipped dramatically.
    Your standards are abysmal compared to those of Harvard itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Now this just shows how stupid you are, and negligent in that you are ignoring the long publication list on my home page. Once I got my PhD, I did research. You know that thing were you actually produce peer-reviewed science, unlike you who just misprepresent it and claim spurious sources for your bullshit. You don't get extra degrees for this you get reputation, respect and credibility, things which you obviously don't have regardless of how many degrees you claim. You have shown yourself to be an ignorant cretin at best, a foolish troll at worst.
    I'll forget that I heard that one, for now. Totally in thrall to problematic dogma, and indeed to the cult of scienticism itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nope, my track record is there for all to see on the home page in my profile (look under past institutions for where I studied), I don't need to resort to making stuff up. Judging by your posts here if your claims are true Harvard's standards must have slipped dramatically.
    Your standards are abysmal compared to those of Harvard itself.
    So Oxford and Cambridge are abysmal now. I'll be sure to let them know. I'm sure they will be heartbroken they don't meet the standards of an ignorant troll...
    DD again? They don't meet the standards of Harvard, not mine. Major problem in perceiving and in interpreting information noted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Truly pathetic. You are now obviously trolling. I'm done here.
    Good for you. None the wiser. I am trolling, you are morassing. From a psychological-epistemological point of view, I feel so sorry for you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Truly pathetic. You are now obviously trolling. I'm done here.
    Most definitely a serious and severe chemical imbalance in the brain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Truly pathetic. You are now obviously trolling. I'm done here.
    How do you hope to ever achieve a level of credibility when about all you can do is to resort to the most basic cognitive distortion of "labelling" ????
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  48. #248  
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    So you had to post that in three separate posts? you spent about 5 minutes on each one trying to come up with some ego feeding witty come back? That really is pathetic. If you don't like PhDemon, just put him on ignore. That won't make you better than him but at least you won't be inclined to make even more replies to him revealing your pathetically adolescent nature.

    Also you may notice that while insulting his witty remarks as proof of his lack of credibility, perhaps you should evaluate your insulting witty remarks and imagine for a moment what they say about you. If your argument had any strength to it, you could stick to the argument itself and not "lower yourself to the same standard" that you try to claim PhDemon has done.

    So many pots and kettles on this forum.
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  49. #249  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If I told you about a book on Meta Physics that really proves the existence of not god but of a form of energy that the universe is comprised of, would you be interested in knowing about it.
    What instruments can we use to measure this energy?
    none, it's purely theoretical
    "The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error; but who does strive to do deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
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  50. #250  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    The word "metaphysics" causes me to punch the nearest person. There's nothing I can do to stop it.
    Why? Far too incredulous?
    Because it is a pathetic attempt to make philosophy into a hard science. Simply because it contains the word 'physics' does not make it an upper echelon science. It's just a magnet for snakes, scammers, and loonies.
    I direct theses remarks to Flick and to other members who share his views and who also fit the category I think of as "well respected, thoughtful member".

    Put simply and with all the invective edited out - You are mistaken. You are displaying a profound ignorance in an interesting and important area. I routinely expect much better of you. In all but this instance I am rarely disappointed.
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  51. #251  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    In all but this instance I am rarely disappointed.
    I'm not.

    Way to go, Flick Montana.

    Metaphysics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  52. #252  
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    Precisely.
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  53. #253  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakesyl View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    What instruments can we use to measure this energy?
    none, it's purely theoretical
    If it were theoretical then we would not only be able to measure it, we would have a theory explaining it.

    Even if it were hypothetical, we would have some suggestions of how to measure it.

    I think the word you are looking for is "non-existent".
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  54. #254  
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    While non-existent is likely accurate, would speculative not be more appropriate?
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    Tell that to a person dying of cancer. I don't think GOD = Hope.
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  56. #256  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    While non-existent is likely accurate, would speculative not be more appropriate?
    I hate it when people do that. I was weighing up the choice between speculative and non-existent. You are right. I was wrong. (But now he's left.)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  57. #257  
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    EDIT: Nevermind. He's gone.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  58. #258  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I direct theses remarks to Flick and to other members who share his views and who also fit the category I think of as "well respected, thoughtful member".

    Put simply and with all the invective edited out - You are mistaken. You are displaying a profound ignorance in an interesting and important area. I routinely expect much better of you. In all but this instance I am rarely disappointed.
    I'm curious as to what you mean.

    I don't find metaphysics (philosophy in general, really) to be interesting or all that important, so what I say about it is not out of ignorance, but disinterest.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  59. #259  
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    I think you can report PMs. That's about all you can do.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  60. #260  
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    yeah you should forward it to one of the mods, Lynx_fox would likely be the best bet since he is the one that removed the offender, or at least it appears that way. In the mean time you can set your settings to only allow PMs from people in your friends list or contact list. That will force him to harass you in the open threads where he will be sure to be banned pdq.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I direct theses remarks to Flick and to other members who share his views and who also fit the category I think of as "well respected, thoughtful member".

    Put simply and with all the invective edited out - You are mistaken. You are displaying a profound ignorance in an interesting and important area. I routinely expect much better of you. In all but this instance I am rarely disappointed.
    I'm curious as to what you mean.

    I don't find metaphysics (philosophy in general, really) to be interesting or all that important, so what I say about it is not out of ignorance, but disinterest.
    I'm neither a scientist, nor a philosopher, but I must say that your comments about metaphysics/philosophy suggest you have an intense dislike of these subjects and doubts about whether they have any real value.
    What does not come across is that what you say arises purely out of "disinterest."
    I certainly would not place philosophy on a par with, for example, physics, but I could never be as dismissive as you seem to be.
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  62. #262  
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    here we are in a thread about "GOD"
    and
    where better would come a discussion of metaphysics?
    though, from my perspective
    that discussion didn't actually emerge from dichotomy of right or wrong, but died, burried in a great stinking pile of invective, defensive posturing, and shoddy reasoning
    (sigh)
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  63. #263  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    your comments about metaphysics/philosophy suggest you have an intense dislike of these subjects
    I don't. Sorry if it came off that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    and doubts about whether they have any real value.
    I absolutely do hold these doubts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Halliday View Post
    What does not come across is that what you say arises purely out of "disinterest."
    I certainly would not place philosophy on a par with, for example, physics, but I could never be as dismissive as you seem to be.
    Sorry. I've caught flak for my lack of respect toward psychology, too. I'm not going to pretend to be PC about everything around me. Now, if someone manages to convince me otherwise, I am completely open to change. That having been said, I have yet to see anything which has convinced me there is real value in something like philosophy other than some clever quotes.

    I might also be coming off a little hard because of how that guy with a dozen PhDs from Harvard was acting. I don't like when people belittle the sciences. Some of us worked very hard to get into our fields and we believe our work is very important. For someone to come along and claim that they are more qualified because of some gibberish pseudoscience is insulting.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  64. #264  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    here we are in a thread about "GOD"
    and
    where better would come a discussion of metaphysics?
    though, from my perspective
    that discussion didn't actually emerge from dichotomy of right or wrong, but died, burried in a great stinking pile of invective, defensive posturing, and shoddy reasoning
    (sigh)
    It must be very cold up there on that high horse of yours maybe next time post before the troll/idiot is banned and the dust has settled or keep your opinions about "invective" to yourself.
    lol

    or
    Perhaps, i should chose my wording a tad more carefully?
    ........................
    so
    Had any good out-of-body experiences lately?
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  65. #265  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    here we are in a thread about "GOD"
    and
    where better would come a discussion of metaphysics?
    though, from my perspective
    that discussion didn't actually emerge from dichotomy of right or wrong, but died, burried in a great stinking pile of invective, defensive posturing, and shoddy reasoning
    (sigh)
    It must be very cold up there on that high horse of yours maybe next time post before the troll/idiot is banned and the dust has settled or keep your opinions about "invective" to yourself.
    lol

    or
    Perhaps, i should chose my wording a tad more carefully?
    ........................
    so
    Had any good out-of-body experiences lately?
    I've never had any out of body experiences. Though I have plenty of out of mind experiences.
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  66. #266  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I've never had any out of body experiences. Though I have plenty of out of mind experiences.
    I think we could all admit to having out of mind experiences. However I would say, not as many as any religious person.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    I think we could all admit to having out of mind experiences. However I would say, not as many as any religious person.
    Of course you would dearie. Having read your posts, I would expect no less.

    What I do not know, is whether you speak from bias, ignorance, prejudice, or wisdom.

    I make no defence of religions, nor established priesthoods. When you have studied several, however, pattern begins to emerge from the layered muck.
    Each piece of pattern, much like the aforementtioned legion of reflections in an excited pool, or fragments of dna, offers but a partial glimpse into the original desire to understand the world with the tools of our distant ancestors. Assemble these fragments into a coherent whole, and re-arrange them as new fragments come to light, and the journey into the minds of our ancestors has just begun.
    Consider, that just because they used different languages, metaphores, idioms, and lexicons than we do today, and lacked much of our instrumentation, the hard wiring may have not changed in well over 70,000 years. Their mind, our mind, one in the same.

    Out of hand dismissal of any one fragment lessens the ability to perceive the whole.
    Eschew the action unless blindness is your goal.
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  68. #268  
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    I'm afraid I couldn't piece together your point amidst all the poetry and allegory.
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  69. #269  
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    que lastima
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  70. #270  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I direct theses remarks to Flick and to other members who share his views and who also fit the category I think of as "well respected, thoughtful member".

    Put simply and with all the invective edited out - You are mistaken. You are displaying a profound ignorance in an interesting and important area. I routinely expect much better of you. In all but this instance I am rarely disappointed.
    I'm curious as to what you mean.

    I don't find metaphysics (philosophy in general, really) to be interesting or all that important, so what I say about it is not out of ignorance, but disinterest.
    I have a short temper for those who dismiss philosophy and argue for the primacy of science. I am less disturbed by their ignorance of philosophy than I am by their seeming misunderstanding of science. One can only dismiss philosophy if one misrepresents the scope and significance of science. Very few scientsits of note would dismiss it, but it seems a disappointingly common practice among rank and files scientists.

    If I sound rather arrogant and elitist in those remarks that's attributable to a strong sense that my arrogance is justified by a more informed understanding of the arena and, doubtless, by three excellent very large frozen margaritas I've consumed in the last 90 minutes.
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  71. #271  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    , doubtless, by three excellent very large frozen margaritas I've consumed in the last 90 minutes.
    lmao, you had me goin there for a second.
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  72. #272  
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC1Oqhu-pgc

    jimmy buffet margaritaville
    for your entertainment
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  73. #273  
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    AAHAHAHHAHAHA Haven't we all?
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  74. #274  
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    *chuckle*

    Liquid courage?
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  75. #275  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    que lastima
    Pero la mía no.

    Y esto es mucho mejor que cualquier otro país y occidental.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  76. #276  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    The initial attempt at patronisation aside (dearie FFS!), I'm still trying to decide whether these posts are deliberate pretentiousness or just naturally bad communication skills...
    Sculptor has, when challenged, made intelligent points in well-written and coherent posts. So I think we can safely assume deliberate pretentiousness.

    Having been congratulated for acting like an adult after his limited attempts at normal communication, he sadly lapsed back to his "oh look at me I'm so creative" art-school mode. Not as annoying as some, but I find my eyes tend to just glide over his posts as if they were random noise. Which may mean I miss something. Or maybe not.
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  77. #277  
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    He basically said that old hypothesis, even if invalidated by observation today, had their roots from more rudimentary observations of the day and should be appreciated for showing how the human mind works, or some such.

    I do not agree with him, because invalid results are still invalid results and while understanding the principles of how the mind works to have led people astray has its point- this does not validate John Galts condemnation of those that state that Philosophy is not a strong provider of independently verifiable results as the scientific method is.
    Philosophy that leads to a hypothesis that leads to a tested theory clearly has its place. But the study of MetaPhysics or philosophy is not based on being followed up by the scientific method but considers iteslf a method for conclusions in its own right and does not deserve consideration.
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  78. #278  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I have a short temper for those who dismiss philosophy and argue for the primacy of science.
    As one of those who, to some extent, dismisses much of philosophy I actually agree with this. The whole concept of what science "is" (the concept of falsifiability and all that) comes from the philosophy of science, not from science itself.

    I think the discipline of philosophy (asking questions, testing ideas, considering consequences and alternatives) is valuable.

    On the other hand an awful lot of what is presented as philosophy is just meaningless guff.
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  79. #279  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    - this does not validate John Galts condemnation of those that state that Philosophy is not a strong provider of independently verifiable results as the scientific method is.
    Philosophy that leads to a hypothesis that leads to a tested theory clearly has its place. .
    That is not what I have condemned. What I have condemned are miscomprehensions such as the one that led you type those words. Miscomprehension is an acceptable excuse for creationists, conspiracy theorists and internet cranks. It is your choice that place you in that grouping, not mine.
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    Please explain how the description given about MetaPhysics was based on miscomprehension. Because that's what started this.
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  81. #281  
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I'm afraid I couldn't piece together your point amidst all the poetry and allegory.
    The initial attempt at patronisation aside (dearie FFS!), I'm still trying to decide whether these posts are deliberate pretentiousness or just naturally bad communication skills...
    Or, perhaps the subject matter suffers from trying to pound it into the patterns of a literate society.
    eg:
    Place the round peg over the square hole and pound furiously away at it with the pinky side of your dominant hand. Eventually, the now bloody peg will be securely wedged into the hole. liberally douse the hand with hydrogen peroxide and bandage, and proudly proclaim to all that with the might of your fist, you have managed to force a round peg into a square hole.

    Can you think of a single religion whose base was created within a literate society?

    Let us assume that all religions had their foundations within pre-literate societies.

    Now comes the hard part.
    Learn how people in pre-literate, or non-literate societies actually communicate with each other.
    If you think you understand the pattern of communication embodied therein:
    Study the communication mores of another non-literate society, and another and another.
    Until, when you study a "new" non-literate society, you understand the pattern of communication embodied therein before encountering it.

    Now, grasshoppper, you may be approaching the point in your education where you may begin to gain something from a cognitave, conscious (dare I say scientific) study of a religion which has been bastardized to the point where it(much as our bloody round peg) fits neatly into the literate left-brain printed word.
    Bear in mind that even though you may think that you have found a real gem distilled by the greatest minds of a bygone pre-literate ancestral society, you are still standing up to your knees in the stinking pile of muck that has accumulated during the intervening centuries.
    Take that gem, put it in your mental pocket, and forget it.
    Then, bend your mind to studying another "religion" from the bastardized bowdlerized version in print.
    Again, find that gem of brilliance from another of the great minds of the ancestors of our current literate species.
    Take that gem, put it in your mental pocket, and forget it.
    Then, bend your mind to studying another "religion" from the bastardized bowdlerized version in print.
    Again, find that gem of brilliance from another of the great minds of the ancestors of our current literate species.

    As you gather your gems from the greatest minds of the past, (unless you are a complete and total fuckingidiot hopelessly mired in the memes and patterns of our left-brain dominant literate society) You will begin to glimpse the(a?) commonality of all of these "religious" teachings.

    Now attend to the alterations embodied within the teachings and philosophy of the southern chan school of "buddhism", which was most likely Buddhism as viewed from the TAOist perspective, and heavily influenced thereby with TAOist principles,
    Let me bring your attention to the fifth patriarch's view of the value of religious indoctrination(somewhat echoed in the "words" of herman hesse's siddhartha). Follow that over the following centuries and see how one doctrine has blended with another, then, using the knowledge of each, deconstruct the blended whole into it's constituant parts. Then reassembile until you could dismantle and reassemble the thing bindfolded and dead drunk.

    Always bear in mind that most of the gems you gather will, to the untrained eye, look like worthles rocks--think "diamond in the rough"
    As you learn more, the gems will become more obvious, and the stinking muck of the misinterpretations of the scrivveners o'er the centuries, but a shallow inconvenience of no consequence.

    (And you had thought that this was gonna be easy?)

    NOTHING WORTHWHILE IS THAT EASY!

    Also, bear in mind that I have shown you only parts of my path.
    It ain't the only path.
    All paths are unique while all paths are one path.
    The "path" is just the place that surrounds your individual journey.

    Somewhere along in here you must turn off the conscious critical literate mind------go beyond words and language --- go within--
    go through the darkness and come into the light , the illumination of your mind------(Zoroaster anyone? how about the masonic lodges?)

    Pause awhile, and
    try to put into words what you sense

    May your skills eclipse mine
    may my light be as a candle to your million watt light.
    May you illuminate the minds of the masses for countless generations.
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  82. #282  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    There are none so blind
    dadio
    as those who WILL not see

    If it is your will
    then that is the path you have chosen

    The light exists for those who would see.
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  83. #283  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    There are none so blind
    dadio
    as those who WILL not see
    It's never a case of "will not" when there is nothing to see. You would first need to elaborate as to what there is to see.
    Then once done, you could claim that people are being stubborn or deliberate in not seeing/seeking, etc..
    However you can't claim that until you have shown there is in fact something to see.
    So your point is moot.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  84. #284  
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    For yourself, pavlos, i am reasonable certain, that what you just claimed is true.

    .................................................. ..........
    Let us examine the case of PhDemon
    If I understand the Phd part(pronounced "fudd" lest he/she get too full of him/herself) to indicate that he/she spent a minimum of 21 years getting an education into an ever narrower field of speciality.

    21 years of intensive study, culminating in a dissertation concerning __________?
    And, yet, this person who obviously values the time spent in becoming knowledgable, and the countless books and articles which furthered that educational goal, has the temerity to expect this all too difficult field of study to be explainable within a few paragraphs embodied within these forums.

    Is there some valid logic in that approach that i have missed?

    ................
    Sometimes, you guys are a real hoot.
    Last edited by sculptor; June 11th, 2013 at 09:57 AM.
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  85. #285  
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    c'est la vie, indeed.

    Don't get me wrong, I spent 13 years in 5 universities sucking knowledge out of books, dissertations, and professors, and am married to a Phd.
    My mom valued getting an education for the sake of knowledge, and, I am truely my mother's son. I would never mock an educational acheivement.

    what was the meat and matter of your dissertation?

    You do understand the nuance of my use of the word epimetheus? It is by way of an apology.
    Whither hence?-------means quite literally that I want someone else's direction, thoughts, inclinations, and knowledge to flesh out the foregoing, and lead us into a furtherance of the subject at hand. (expressed my desire while not being too demanding?)

    My apologies for my formatting errors. During my formative years, boys were not encouraged to take typing, and in my gradeschool, for 7th and 8th grades our teacher didn't like nor teach english. 'Tis a lifelong handicap for me.
    In a younger day, I relied on the person at the typewriter to place the dictated thoughts into the standard format. But, those days are gone, and this poor attempt by a pathetic wretch is all I have to offer you.

    My understanding of the "god" thing at the heart of religious teaching and dogma evolved from the guidance of a true man of god within the protestant religion. Then was refined by my studies into psychology, anthropology, archaeology, communication(all degreed) and comparative mythology.

    I firmly believe that the hard wiring(so to speak) of our brains has not changed significantly for the past 70,000 years, and likely much longer.
    From that bias, I assume that just as there are great minds with brilliant insights today, there were also the same within the populations of our ancestors.
    The question obtains, wherethen should we seek the flowers of their wisdom?
    What, exactly, do we have left of their knowledge?
    I do not always know where we seperate the spheres of philosophy, and religion. To my perspective they seem often of the same substance.
    In studying non-literate, and pre-literate communication, I have found that the use of metaphore, rhyme and rhythem, simile and anecdote were common.

    If I knew whether you could juxtapose "GOD" and TAO or Buddha, and come away witha furtherance of your understanding of the handed down wisdom and insights, I' would surely explain that knowledge.
    In point of fact, I do not know that.

    What I do know, is that, if people presuppose that there will be nothing to find at the end of the journey, than the journey will never begin.
    Last edited by sculptor; June 11th, 2013 at 07:07 PM.
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  86. #286  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I firmly believe that the hard wiring(so to speak) of our brains has not changed significantly for the past 70,000 years, and likely much longer.
    Belief is a remarkable concept that has no place in science. Perhaps you would like to encourage acceptance of that idea by providing evidence to support the view.
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  87. #287  
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Nope, my track record is there for all to see on the home page in my profile (look under past institutions for where I studied), I don't need to resort to making stuff up. Judging by your posts here if your claims are true Harvard's standards must have slipped dramatically.
    Seeing your profile, it is very limited. Only a PhD and an MRSC.
    Do you have any friends that you could recommend to the forum? I'm always enthralled at the prospect of getting bumped up a few steps on the hierarchical ladder of intelligence here.
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    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
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  88. #288  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    For yourself, pavlos, i am reasonable certain, that what you just claimed is true.
    And what pray, did I claim?
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  89. #289  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I have a short temper for those who dismiss philosophy and argue for the primacy of science.
    Fair enough. We all have things that set us off. Wishy washy science does it for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I am less disturbed by their ignorance of philosophy than I am by their seeming misunderstanding of science. One can only dismiss philosophy if one misrepresents the scope and significance of science.
    I believe the scope of science encapsulates that which is measurable. I have yet to see such practice from something like philosophy. I fail to understand what makes it a science any more than poetry is a science.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Very few scientsits of note would dismiss it, but it seems a disappointingly common practice among rank and files scientists.
    I think this is a little insulting. I don't know that I am "of note" nor do I know what you mean by "rank and file". I feel as though I make significant contributions to my field and I don't particularly enjoy the notion that you're calling me some scientific foot soldier. I would also like to think that even the amateur scientists cleaning beakers and looking forward to the day they get to call themselves a doctor or professor are still very much worth being heard.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    If I sound rather arrogant and elitist in those remarks that's attributable to a strong sense that my arrogance is justified by a more informed understanding of the arena and, doubtless, by three excellent very large frozen margaritas I've consumed in the last 90 minutes.
    I can't claim to know anything about you or what makes you "more informed" as to the basis of science, but I think mayhaps the margaritas were a bad idea before posting. You're coming off as dismissive as you claim I am. And no one should behave like me, even when slightly boozed.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  90. #290  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I am less disturbed by their ignorance of philosophy than I am by their seeming misunderstanding of science. One can only dismiss philosophy if one misrepresents the scope and significance of science.
    I believe the scope of science encapsulates that which is measurable. I have yet to see such practice from something like philosophy. I fail to understand what makes it a science any more than poetry is a science.
    This is precisely your error. I have not claimed that philosophy is a science. If you accept that poetry, to take your example, can help illuminate the human condition and the natural world, then you should be able to accept the value of philosophy. If you cannot accept that, then I doubt we will gain anything from further discussion of this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Very few scientsits of note would dismiss it, but it seems a disappointingly common practice among rank and files scientists.
    I think this is a little insulting.
    Yes it is. But the truth can be that way. The questions is, is my statement true? Let's take this one step at a time. Do you deny that some noted scientists do not dismiss philosophy? Can we work from there?
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  91. #291  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    I firmly believe that the hard wiring(so to speak) of our brains has not changed significantly for the past 70,000 years, and likely much longer.
    Belief is a remarkable concept that has no place in science. Perhaps you would like to encourage acceptance of that idea by providing evidence to support the view.
    Perhaps, "believe" was a poor choice of words. Would: 'I surmise, based on my education, that the hard wiring(so to speak) of our brains has not changed significantly for the past 70,000 years, and likely much longer' be more appropos?

    If memory serves, i first got that from a professor heading a seminar on evolutionary anthropology circa 1978, I remember him focusing on the morphology of the inside of the brain case.
    so, I poked about online and came away with a number approximating 40-50kybp

    here's a bunch of different folks focusing on the 40kybp #
    40,000 years ago

    and, here's one from r. klein
    Klein: Behavioral and Biological Origins of Modern Humans 3 of 3
    here's another of his from an interview
    I think that what happened 40,000 or 50,000 years ago was the last major change in the genotype. At least the last major biological change. Evolution continues, but the evolution that’s involved in making us capable of wielding this vast variety of cultures—that probably stopped around 40,000 or 50,000 years ago and there’s been no essential change since.
    http://www.pnas.org/site/misc/kleintranscript.pdf

    and a tad less direct from wiki and nat geo
    Anatomically modern humans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    When Did "Modern" Behavior Emerge in Humans?
    ....
    .what were we talking about?
    Oh yeh,
    the "god" thing, available avenues of access to ancestral wisdom.
    It has been variously postulated that religion began somewhere between 50,kybp and 200kybp.
    Studies into the pattern of recognition/understanding of the biom within our species extending back a thousand generations or more.
    Pattern may be all that we can know of "GOD"
    wei wu wei
    do by not doing
    If you would know god, study the things that you can see, expand your vision through science and scientific instrumentation.
    For me, recognizing pattern is key. But then again, that is my path. Yours is likely diffrent.

    yours,
    truely yours
    the "sacreligious son of a bitch"
    (so named by an irate baptist chaplin)
    (kill a commie for christ)(the culmination of my days of youth)
    .....................
    Not everyone really needs give a damn as to the existance or lack thereof of a(the) "GOD"
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  92. #292  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    thanx fer the mnemonic

    in post 300 pavlos wrote:

    It's never a case of "will not" when there is nothing to see. You would first need to elaborate as to what there is to see.
    Then once done, you could claim that people are being stubborn or deliberate in not seeing/seeking, etc..
    However you can't claim that until you have shown there is in fact something to see.
    So your point is moot.
    I see this as demanding a simple explanation for something that has eluded philosophers, most of the clergy, and assorted other great minds for tens to hundreds of centuries.

    Failing to have that really silly demand met, the conclusion was: So your point is moot.

    so, I typed: For yourself, pavlos, i am reasonable certain, that what you just claimed is true.

    I've often wondered: If you are flogging a dead horse, is anyone else suffering?

    (but, then again, you already knew the answers)
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  93. #293  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    This is precisely your error. I have not claimed that philosophy is a science. If you accept that poetry, to take your example, can help illuminate the human condition and the natural world, then you should be able to accept the value of philosophy. If you cannot accept that, then I doubt we will gain anything from further discussion of this point.
    I should probably clarify that I personally don't find philosophy important. I'm not saying it ISN'T important. I'm sure plenty of people have gleaned insight from it (as they likely have from religion, poetry, etc). I fail to see the scientific value in such pursuits, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Do you deny that some noted scientists do not dismiss philosophy? Can we work from there?
    I honestly cannot say that I know the personal opinions of specific scientists regarding philosophy. Of course, if you consider philosophy a science, plenty of scientists accept philosophy as valuable and legitimate. My opinions are my own and are rarely swayed simply because of the opinions held by others. Now, if you have an argument for philosophy that demonstrates scientific value, I'll hear that. But I'm not more interested in the values of a scientist based simply upon their level of public recognition.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  94. #294  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    307
    thanx fer the mnemonic

    in post 300 pavlos wrote:

    It's never a case of "will not" when there is nothing to see. You would first need to elaborate as to what there is to see.
    Then once done, you could claim that people are being stubborn or deliberate in not seeing/seeking, etc..
    However you can't claim that until you have shown there is in fact something to see.
    So your point is moot.
    I see this as demanding a simple explanation for something that has eluded philosophers, most of the clergy, and assorted other great minds for tens to hundreds of centuries.

    Failing to have that really silly demand met, the conclusion was: So your point is moot.

    so, I typed: For yourself, pavlos, i am reasonable certain, that what you just claimed is true.

    I've often wondered: If you are flogging a dead horse, is anyone else suffering?

    (but, then again, you already knew the answers)
    Yet you haven't shown that I claimed anything. I merely pointed out to you that you can't go round stating "will not see" when you yourself agree that it is a moot point. (my emphasis above) You should have replied with "For yourself, pavlos, i am reasonable certain, that what you just claimed stated is true. Then post #307 would not be an issue.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  95. #295  
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    What about understanding?
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  96. #296  
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    what indeed?

    I had understood that a declarative statement focusing on a point made by the second person, and following an arguementation of that point was synonomous with "claim".
    "claim" is a proposition, is a statement that is either true or false.
    ergo, true for you seemed obvious

    Do we have an expert sophist in the room?

    Or, should we just enjoy the entertaining ploys of sophistry.

    ..............
    (he wasn't really flogging the dead horse, he was tenderizing the meat)
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  97. #297  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    what indeed?

    I had understood that a declarative statement focusing on a point made by the second person, and following an arguementation of that point was synonomous with "claim".
    "claim" is a proposition, is a statement that is either true or false.
    ergo, true for you seemed obvious
    A claim is to state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof, which is exactly what you did.
    Hence why it was pointed out to you; Pointing out where you erred is not a claim.
    The burden was yours to provide. You can't assume someone is being stubborn, or willful, if you haven't supplied the data that they can be stubborn or willful about. My pointing that out is not making a claim.
    Ok! Do you understand yet.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    ~ I find it troubling that the title is ' Is god really exist or not ?!! I Know it's a very common question' ~

    I would have used different words to make a better point; words like 'Does'

    What evidence is there for any god ?

    ... and then, why do you want to be told ? Think for yourself. Enquire, Question, Review, Question some more,

    Look for the science in religious faith. Compare the different belief structures, where are they different ? and why ?

    Showing a compassion and tolerance for my fellow man and claiming a humanist view is the view I try to adhere to.

    Some of the BS I see makes that hard at times.. and as a side view. ( mine ) I have noted that.

    Most atheists have a good background knowledge of religions.. Do you agree ?

    That those of strong faith do not demand answers and do not enquire. They seem to want to be led.

    The quicker we educate this out of society the better.
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  99. #299  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Of course, if you consider philosophy a science, plenty of scientists accept philosophy as valuable and legitimate.
    And that statement is precisely why part of my earlier post seemed a little insulting to you. I find it practically impossible to restrain the impulse to insult individuals who think, as you appear to do, that science is the only valid way to acquire knowledge.

    Flick, I have developed an admiration and respect for your knowledge, your insights and your humanity through the posts you have made on this forum. However, on this point my opinion is that you are wrong and badly so. I do not wish to argue with you because of the aforementioned respect, but that respect also demands I be wholly frank in condemning your position on this. Now, I strongly dislike the "agreeing to disagee position", but I think it may be the best step here.

    Thanks.
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  100. #300  
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    Science is the only way to gather empirical knowledge.
    It is not the only valid way to gather knowledge- but knowledge gathered by another means has more room for doubt.

    So science can give us the properties of a metal, let's say- that is not an opinion.
    Philosophy can give us a reasonable understanding of some human behavior- we can call that opinion.

    Both are knowledge.
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