Thread: Be Religious ... In secret

Quick intro: Im a Muslim (ie terrorist)

Isn't there the smallest chance in your (aithest) eyes that there could be a God (not God as the Universe or the Sun or something like that - but an actual creator)? And if so why not contribute to that small chance? Just a little. You can do it in secret if you want, and be publically known as an aithest.

Being religious doesn't mean your a zombee, to me it gives me more freedom than an aithest has. Its not as bad as you'd think, do this, do that, be a little different (which is kool), and in the end go to heaven.
YOU DONT NEED TO KILL ANYONE.


----------------
So to be a secret muslim, do the following:

- Say "There is no God, but Allah"
- Repeat it to yourself a few times a day
- Go about your normal day, as a Muslim beginner
----------------


Your belief will come from studying a translated version of the Qur'an, if you ever do.By the way heaven is more complex than a simple place of paradise.

So Secretly Religious, interested?

--------------------------------
how to be a secret athiest

Say "there is no allah"

repeat that every second of the day, best while having a beer

Go about a normal day, having fun, looking at attractive women as a human being would

--------------------------------


Why are muslim's so desperate to convert everyone, Tell you what

DO US ALL A FAVOUR AND YOU BECOME A SECRET MUSLIM

That's very kind of you to offer, But somehow I'm not into all that wife-beating, public executions, alcohol abstention and mumbo-jumbo three times a day lark.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

That's very kind of you to offer, But somehow I'm not into all that wife-beating, public executions, alcohol abstention and mumbo-jumbo three times a day lark.

Exactly

I also wondered about the freedom, how is a muslim more free than an athiest?

Any examples?

The only one i could think of was the freedom to not feel guilty about blowing up innocent women and children, is that the freedom you mean? Cause if it is you can keep it

Why is it that the Muslims who wrote in this forum make Islam look ridiculous, disgusting, or worse?

[DELETED]

back on topic, being a closet atheist is going against the fundamental "rule"(whatever) of being an atheist. It's not like atheists are afraid to worship publicly, they just don't believe. doing it in secret and pretending to be an atheist is just a display of puny integrity.

So many narrow minded people.. i find more everyday. prejudiced against this or that... get a grip.....

Originally Posted by jagoman

Quick intro: Im a Muslim (ie terrorist)

Is this some kind of twisted sarcasm or are you being serious? If you are serious than I got three words for you: "bring it on". If not than well... your not very funny.

Originally Posted by jagoman

Isn't there the smallest chance in your (aithest) eyes that there could be a God (not God as the Universe or the Sun or something like that - but an actual creator)? And if so why not contribute to that small chance? Just a little. You can do it in secret if you want, and be publically known as an aithest.

Being religious doesn't mean your a zombee, to me it gives me more freedom than an aithest has. Its not as bad as you'd think, do this, do that, be a little different (which is kool), and in the end go to heaven.
YOU DONT NEED TO KILL ANYONE.


----------------
So to be a secret muslim, do the following:

- Say "There is no God, but Allah"
- Repeat it to yourself a few times a day
- Go about your normal day, as a Muslim beginner
----------------


Your belief will come from studying a translated version of the Qur'an, if you ever do.By the way heaven is more complex than a simple place of paradise.

So Secretly Religious, interested?

I think I agree with others in that an athiest doesn't believe. You can't be an atheist if you believe. I doesn't work that way. Also, you may want to look at your religion. I'm sorry if this is a stereotype but I would not want to be part of a religion that believes it's ok to kill others. Maybe you should present your religion a little differently and if you can't than don't plan on getting many recruits.

Originally Posted by Draculogenes

[DELETED]

back on topic, being a closet atheist is going against the fundamental "rule"(whatever) of being an atheist. It's not like atheists are afraid to worship publicly, they just don't believe. doing it in secret and pretending to be an atheist is just a display of puny integrity.

So many narrow minded people.. i find more everyday. prejudiced against this or that... get a grip.....

Its not about hating muslims, ive got a lot of respect for scifiguy's attitude, but this guy is unbelievable. Is this forum for discussing science or to recruit people?

Every post from jagoman and his alter ego profahmfaw(their never on here at same time :wink: ) is just a recruiting tool for their religion

As ive said before if they discuss science matters as the christian users on here do, i would have no reason to bitch

But looking at the posts its all "join islam" and "the koran knows everything" and thats it. Its just pure spamming of a product that know-one wants

Originally Posted by Draculogenes

[DELETED]

back on topic, being a closet atheist is going against the fundamental "rule"(whatever) of being an atheist. It's not like atheists are afraid to worship publicly, they just don't believe. doing it in secret and pretending to be an atheist is just a display of puny integrity.

So many narrow minded people.. i find more everyday. prejudiced against this or that... get a grip.....

Ha ha ha I like that one, :wink: 10/10 for the humor!

The whole point of this topic was to see if you guys thought that there might be the possibility of a God, and to perform 'some' religious duty in case God did exist and you were judged and there was a heaven and a hell - and so you can avoid the latter.

My 'Muslim (ie terrorist)' remark was to highlight the stereotype placed on muslims, and to show that if you were secretly religious you wouldn't be branded with that or any other label. The topic is about protecting yourself in the chance that God did exist, and if he didn't then what? Silence? Nothing?

Originally Posted by jagoman

The whole point of this topic was to see if you guys thought that there might be the possibility of a God, and to perform 'some' religious duty in case God did exist and you were judged and there was a heaven and a hell - and so you can avoid the latter.

My 'Muslim (ie terrorist)' remark was to highlight the stereotype placed on muslims, and to show that if you were secretly religious you wouldn't be branded with that or any other label. The topic is about protecting yourself in the chance that God did exist, and if he didn't then what? Silence? Nothing?

No I do not believe in a god, I simply cannot find any place for such a concept. I try to go through life being a nice guy. When I die that's it, all over, nothing. If I supposed for one moment there was a god I would still not be interested. If you are happy to believe in god then that's your right, it is to be respected by others as a mere difference of opinion.

Nobody can say absolutely that there is no god, it is one of those things that cannot be proven either way by humans. If I am wrong and there is a god what would be my fate? - you don't know, I don't know, nobody knows. I did not exist before I was born I will simply not exist after I die, I'd like to know why such a concept is so difficult to grasp.

Now suppose your God sent you a message which said "Jago, those guys who wrote the Koran/bible etc, mis-understood what I said, there is no afterlife I create each of you to exist for a short time and enjoy my creation," How would you behave in future?

Originally Posted by jagoman

The whole point of this topic was to see if you guys thought that there might be the possibility of a God, and to perform 'some' religious duty in case God did exist and you were judged and there was a heaven and a hell - and so you can avoid the latter.

My 'Muslim (ie terrorist)' remark was to highlight the stereotype placed on muslims, and to show that if you were secretly religious you wouldn't be branded with that or any other label. The topic is about protecting yourself in the chance that God did exist, and if he didn't then what? Silence? Nothing?

theres no middle ground as far as im concerned, by performing some religious duty in case god exists would mean im doubting the non-existence of a god in the first place. And i don't doubt there is no god in the same way you have no doubt there is

And if there is a god, when i die, in the religion of my country i will be forgiven. :wink:

Another way of looking at it is. What if there is a god but the koran and bible and all other scriptures are man made.

Maybe a god would have prefered me to live life to the full, have fun, procreate, be merry etc

You never know either, maybe if there is a god the athiests way is what he/she prefers?

Well then Megabrain as hard it is for me to let you go, this topic is not for you. If you cant admit that there is a small chance that God could exist then I ask for you not to post on this topic, thank you.

But to answer your question -
Firstly. It would not be God, Mohammad was the last prophet
Secondly. My name is not Jago
Thirdly. If he had no power over me after I died then I'd live pretty much the same apart from leaving out a couple of prayers a day if they weren't needed for anything. As for the drinking and drugs and skimppy dressed women, the laws given within the book are there for our own good. I dont like alcohol, I despise those who take drugs, and I'll knockout anyone who trys to take advantage of ma gorgeous woman, so modest clothing it shall be hehe.

Originally Posted by jagoman

Well then Megabrain as hard it is for me to let you go, this topic is not for you. If you cant admit that there is a small chance that God could exist then I ask for you not to post on this topic, thank you.

But to answer your question -
Firstly. It would not be God, Mohammad was the last prophet
Secondly. My name is not Jago
Thirdly. If he had no power over me after I died then I'd live pretty much the same apart from leaving out a couple of prayers a day if they weren't needed for anything. As for the drinking and drugs and skimppy dressed women, the laws given within the book are there for our own good. I dont like alcohol, I despise those who take drugs, and I'll knockout anyone who trys to take advantage of ma gorgeous woman, so modest clothing it shall be hehe.

Well jago,
I can only assume from your reply that you recognise there are others with a superior knowledge of these things that you do not wish to debate with for fear of losing. I did not say there is no god, I said I do not believe IN a god, I also said no human could prove one way or the other. I told you that IF there was a god I would still not obey/worship/or turn my arse to the sky for it (though not in so many words).
As for mohammed we are talking god here not some 6th century baby f****r

This is a science forum on religion??? Oh crap, smart people!!!

I asked for you not to post because you strayed to avoid the question. You said "I simply cannot find any place for such a concept" (about God). Saying no-one can prove God does not exist and you saying that does not add up to accepting the possibility of a God.

Anyhow after your last comment on your previous post, I can see you are just another ignorant copycat pawn in the ever fearing misunderstood anti-Islamic army. If you have nothing good to say, then as this topic introduces, be secret about it (ie SHUT IT!).

Peace out

Originally Posted by jagoman

This is a science forum on religion??? Oh crap, smart people!!!

I asked for you not to post because you strayed to avoid the question. You said "I simply cannot find any place for such a concept" (about God). Saying no-one can prove God does not exist and you saying that does not add up to accepting the possibility of a God.

Anyhow after your last comment on your previous post, I can see you are just another ignorant copycat pawn in the ever fearing misunderstood anti-Islamic army. If you have nothing good to say, then as this topic introduces, be secret about it (ie SHUT IT!).

Peace out

"Insults are the words of a man who has lost an argument" - Confucius

I dont understand what point your trying to put across. You insult a prophet, then you say "Insults are the words of a man who has lost an argument". Be constructive, or piss off

Originally Posted by jagoman

I dont understand what point your trying to put across. You insult a prophet, then you say "Insults are the words of a man who has lost an argument". Be constructive, or piss off

I did not insult any prophet. If you think that f****r is an insult it is because your mind replaced those characters with some other letters.

the insult of a maniac doesnt anyone bother about becuase they dont understand they are insultet. also insulting dead people never botehr anyone since the person is dead and cant do anything about it.

so muhammed shouldnt care since both matches him

Originally Posted by jagoman

Im a Muslim (ie terrorist)

I have to ask you not to equate Muslims with terrorists. I know you mean it in a sarcastic way, but allowing you to say this would be like only allowing a black man to insult black people. I think nobody here believes all Muslims are terrorists, or all terrorists are Muslims. Neither is true.

On to your question. I can speak the words you wrote, but they wouldn't mean anything. I don't believe in a god so I don't believe in Allah either. If your god exists then he would surely see the difference between saying something you believe in and just pronouncing some words.

You may say that I'm not sure there is no god, but this shows that I think in a different way: to me a statement that is not logical and is not supported by any evidence is not relevent, even if I can't definitively proof that it's false. The reason is that people make unsupported claims all the time. If we should treat all these claims as relevent, then that would consume all our time :wink: People claim that gods exist, that aliens abduct humans, that some secret organisation controls all governments, etc the list is endless. Taking all those idea's serious and thinking them all through one by one would cost too much time. But as they aren't logical in the first time they can safely be rejected.

Jagoman doesn't wish anybody to downplay his religion. He's subconsciously afraid it will cause him to lose his current belief and come to terms with a harsher reality.

Translation: Keep on debating it. It'll make him snap.

I think nobody here believes all Muslims are terrorists, or all terrorists are Muslims. Neither is true.

that is true, but we in the christian world keeps our terrorists undercontrol while those from the muslim world cant keep any control on them

You may say that I'm not sure there is no god, but this shows that I think in a different way: to me a statement that is not logical and is not supported by any evidence is not relevent, even if I can't definitively proof that it's false. The reason is that people make unsupported claims all the time. If we should treat all these claims as relevent, then that would consume all our time People claim that gods exist, that aliens abduct humans, that some secret organisation controls all governments, etc the list is endless. Taking all those idea's serious and thinking them all through one by one would cost too much time. But as they aren't logical in the first time they can safely be rejected.

this is so true. something dont exist in science until its proven it exists. not the other way around. so until proven god dont exist physicaly. he is just a little imaginary friend

Originally Posted by jagoman

The whole point of this topic was to see if you guys thought that there might be the possibility of a God, and to perform 'some' religious duty in case God did exist and you were judged and there was a heaven and a hell - and so you can avoid the latter.

There is indeed a possibility that a 'god' exists in the universe. Not being able to observe fully the entire universe and empirically test it, there is no way to say for certainty. But it is almost certain that there is *not* a god, particularly not the version presented by abrahamic cults like christianity and islam, for such a universe in which a god existed would be a much different kind of place than it is.

There are no evidences for the existence of such beings and no positive reason to acknowledge them. Perform some "religious duty in case God did exist" is intellectually dishonest and a wager that would probably backfire since if a god *does* exist, there's more chance that we have no earthly idea what "duties" it requires of us. Why risk pissing it off by worshiping some false god like allah, yawheh, elohim, zeus, or ptah? Why not simply live a good and humanistic life, assuming that this is the only life you get in this universe -the only chance to do it- and live it to the fullest with regards to the moralities set by society?

I'm certainly not wasting my time worshiping one of Islam's gods or one of Christianity's. Neither of those cults have risen to distinction and demonstrated themselves to be honorable and moral from my perspective.

I have to disagree with skinwalker, I don't see any possibility for a god.

For example,

First a god out of nothing, one who creates himself?
second, God creates the universe out of nothing?

So here we have two incredible events, why not make it a hell of a lot easier and simpler, ie only 1 event?

What's 'god' made out of? if it's atoms then he exists as we exist and the structure of his being would be subject to decay from cosmic rays.

If it is not matter as we know it then he's not part of this universe and cannot therefore act upon it.

Sorry, skin afterdeath=beforelife Nothing, zilch.

Originally Posted by Megabrain

So here we have two incredible events, why not make it a hell of a lot easier and simpler, ie only 1 event?

a) They may only appear incredible to you because you are working on a data set that is highly restricted.
b) Incredible events may beget incredible events.

Yes, but in a universe where it is possible for a god to create itself, why would it not also be possible for a universe to create itself. The universe would have to exist first to give a place for the god to exist or create itself. If a god existed first, who or what created the god?

A more parsimonious explanation is that the universe has always existed and that its natural laws are sufficient to give rise to all we believed to be "created." There certainly has been no need for a 'god' to exist and none has bothered to interact with humanity in an age in which it has developed methods of observation and discovery (science). One is left to conclude that if a god *did* exist as written in literary texts like the xian bible, then that god is: 1) afraid of humanity now that we have science and what we might find out about it; 2) no longer interested in humanity and has abandoned us; 3) never existed in the first place and earlier myths created about it were just about controlling pre-scientific peoples.

If either of the above are true, what this says about believers is: 1) we're more powerful than god; 2) said god no longer deserves our respect; 3) we're gullible and/or superstitious by nature.

At the end of the day, when all is said and done, not to mince words or use cleche's it's not going to make a lot of difference how it came into being, just party while your lights are still on! 8)

SkinWalker,

Yes, but in a universe where it is possible for a god to create itself, why would it not also be possible for a universe to create itself. The universe would have to exist first to give a place for the god to exist or create itself. If a god existed first, who or what created the god?

There is not one scripture on this planet which even leads to a minute notion that God created Himself, so why you throw this into the pot I have no idea. At least lets talk about the basic concept of God.
Your consistent question of who or what created God has no place in any serious discussion about God, because nobody worships or believes in a god who was created.

There certainly has been no need for a 'god' to exist and none has bothered to interact with humanity in an age in which it has developed methods of observation and discovery (science).

How do you know God does not interact with humanity?
Maybe God is not what you think Him to be, with all due respect, you don't sound like you have grasped the basic understanding of who or what God is. In fact you are very open in your contempt of just the idea of person, or thing, such as God.
What signs would you expect God to give the whole of humanity, regardless of their spiritual position, that He interacts with humanity?

One is left to conclude that if a god *did* exist as written in literary texts like the xian bible, then that god is: 1) afraid of humanity now that we have science and what we might find out about it; 2) no longer interested in humanity and has abandoned us; 3) never existed in the first place and earlier myths created about it were just about controlling pre-scientific peoples.

You missed the most important one out;
4) That very few people are actually qualified, in this day and age, to understand what and who He is, and as such cannot comprehend Him.

If either of the above are true, what this says about believers is: 1) we're more powerful than god; 2) said god no longer deserves our respect; 3) we're gullible and/or superstitious by nature.

That's fair enough, but why don't you be more honest and admit you don't care whether God exists or not, and are interpreting science in such a way as to back it up.
I say this, because there is so much you are not even prepared to basically learn about God.

Jan.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Your consistent question of who or what created God has no place in any serious discussion about God, because nobody worships or believes in a god who was created.

I do.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by jan ardena

Your consistent question of who or what created God has no place in any serious discussion about God, because nobody worships or believes in a god who was created.

I do.

What I meant was, the general practioner of revealed religions.
Just out of curiosity, which god do you do you worship, or believe in?

Jan.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

There is not one scripture on this planet which even leads to a minute notion that God created Himself, so why you throw this into the pot I have no idea. At least lets talk about the basic concept of God.
Your consistent question of who or what created God has no place in any serious discussion about God, because nobody worships or believes in a god who was created.

I do as well. At least, I leave it exist as one of the "occult possibilities" I've ended up comming to in research. Humans believe in a god via mass belief, and the god is inevitably created. Gods, by then, are most likely sentient enough to act on their own. Which may lead to telepathic control, or energy draining, of all it's believers to keep it alive and make it grow stronger .
However these "Gods" aren't omniscient NOR omnipotent. They fit in with reality (in those areas) and thus many of these "Gods" can exist.

To get back to the real world on this subject: Yes people do. You're stupid for assuming they don't. However I worship none of these.

How do you know God does not interact with humanity?
Maybe God is not what you think Him to be, with all due respect, you don't sound like you have grasped the basic understanding of who or what God is. In fact you are very open in your contempt of just the idea of person, or thing, such as God.
What signs would you expect God to give the whole of humanity, regardless of their spiritual position, that He interacts with humanity?

You're talking bullocks. Who are you to assume he does?

You missed the most important one out;
4) That very few people are actually qualified, in this day and age, to understand what and who He is, and as such cannot comprehend Him.

One cannot comprehend that which doesn't have physical form if one only has a physical form. Nobody can. You fail.

That's fair enough, but why don't you be more honest and admit you don't care whether God exists or not, and are interpreting science in such a way as to back it up.
I say this, because there is so much you are not even prepared to basically learn about God.

Wow, he just told the other guy what he is doing. You, Jan, have interpreted science in such a way that it backed up your claims. So now you tell someone else not to do that? What, only you are allowed to?
You say "you are not even prepared" like you've proven god does exist.
....where's the proof?

Originally Posted by jagoman

The whole point of this topic was to see if you guys thought that there might be the possibility of a God, and to perform 'some' religious duty in case God did exist and you were judged and there was a heaven and a hell - and so you can avoid the latter.

My 'Muslim (ie terrorist)' remark was to highlight the stereotype placed on muslims, and to show that if you were secretly religious you wouldn't be branded with that or any other label. The topic is about protecting yourself in the chance that God did exist, and if he didn't then what? Silence? Nothing?

Aaah making more sense now. Somehow I think that, if you were to be judged by God and God new that you were being religious just to cover your bases, you would likely be judged the same as someone who did not believe (seeing as how you are likely faking it). If you are 'secretly' religious to avoid stereotypes then that is kinda sad, but I do understand. Many people are very quick to judge but, that is their own fault and the only one embarrassted in the end will be them.

Cyclic eternal conversations...

Ever hear of the God Gene? No it doesn't give you superpowers, it's some theoretical mumbo-jumbo about the possiblity of a gene being in humans which dictates whether or not they will believe in god. Well, now you're asking, what the Aitch is the purpose of that? I cant' say, but it seems like it's a possibility. If it's not a gene, I think it would be something present only in some people.

Think about it, no matter what you do, no matter what argument you make, you can't get an atheist to believe in god, and theist to not believe. (which fundamentally, makes these debates useless... )

The thing about atheists is that they often can't understand the concept of faith. I find this very intersting, as many of my friends are atheists(i'm agnostic) They can't understand why people would believe there is a god when there is no proof. It's like the "who created god?" question. I would say, "no one, God just always was." Atheists would think that to be impossible, and in many cases can't even imagine how it could be possible. It's like their brains are unable of processing the possibility.

Same thing goes for believers though. In the end nobody's opinions will have changed, so it's pointless. You'll just have a few more enemies than you had before.

In a way, everyone is a hypocrit. trying to prove whether or not god exists, and convincing others of your view is exactly what you(some of you) hate jagoman for doing. Why care if i believe in a higher power or not? Am I not enlightened if I don't? am I foolish if I do? well why should you care? it's my life, not yours.

See, the "god" gene is much like the "gay" gene or "bi" gene or "Einstein" gene (they have genes for everything). Completely moronic, and most hold almost no credibility with anybody who studied it. of course then you have people that prefer to blame it on a gene like it's a disease...but that's why it exists to begin with.

And actually I've "convinced" a theist to be more of an agnostic. Also, someone had "convinced" me to stop being ignorant and actually study. That led to a three+ year study which still continues, but in the meantime I'm atheist now. XP

Maybe you have a choice, "Would you like an intelligence gene or a mumbo jumbo gene" - Cos they sure as hell don't ever seem to exist in the same person. :-D

So I assume you got the "mumbo jumbo" gene?

You were doing alright until you got to the 'u' in assume.... :wink:

Originally Posted by Megabrain

You were doing alright until you got to the 'u' in assume.... :wink:

If it's suggested that I spelled it improperly, you lose.
If it's suggested that I inherited the gene, lets reverse this...

"You"
"u"
"u in assume"

That's three against "u". childish arguments can be so entertaining...

Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

So I ass

Get it now? :wink:

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Somehow I think that, if you were to be judged by God and God new that you were being religious just to cover your bases, you would likely be judged the same as someone who did not believe (seeing as how you are likely faking it).

Well I would be expecting the person who was 'faking it' to be studying his religion, and if that was Islam, then I would hope they would understand its workings the way I do and challenge it against other beliefs, as I do. I will be forever (during my life) challenging it, not because I wanna prove myself wrong, but because I want to stay in the set mind of an athiest. This way I know how you think, and you only assume you know how I do(or any other Muslim does).

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Jagoman doesn't wish anybody to downplay his religion. He's subconsciously afraid it will cause him to lose his current belief and come to terms with a harsher reality.

Translation: Keep on debating it. It'll make him snap.

To be totally honest DaBOB (and this goes to all of you), I expected a challenge when I first came on this forum, a challenge against my faith, but all thats happened is that it has given me a strengthened belief in Allah, and a faster typing speed. I believe your challenge of dismissing God is much harder than my challenge of proving to you he exists.

Good luck[/quote]

You have never yet shown the courage or ability to adopt an atheist mindset.

There are two paths in life.

One can accept God as the answer to all and live happily in the belief that all will be well forever in a cosy place somewhere.

Or can disbelieve and, if wrong, pay the full penalty of the wrath of God. We are so convinced in our own minds that god does not exist we are prepared to accept the risk of his full wrath.

Who among muslims is brave enough to risk the full wrath of God by defying him?.

I think its pretty brave of me (as a muslim), as well as showing courtesy by even being on here. I could as you say, blindly follow my religion, but Im not stupid, that would simply make me lucky to have been born in an Islamic family. And if I didn't blindly follow my religion, what if it was christianity or Judium - there needs to be some challenge against the religion you follow. And that goes for you too, you should continue challenging whether God does actually exist, else you'd be blindly following science - I can see many people doing just that.

Let me shamelessly quote myself, as I'm curious about your answer:

Originally Posted by Pendragon

You may say that I'm not sure there is no god, but this shows that I think in a different way: to me a statement that is not logical and is not supported by any evidence is not relevent, even if I can't definitively proof that it's false. The reason is that people make unsupported claims all the time. If we should treat all these claims as relevent, then that would consume all our time :wink: People claim that gods exist, that aliens abduct humans, that some secret organisation controls all governments, etc the list is endless. Taking all those idea's serious and thinking them all through one by one would cost too much time. But as they aren't logical in the first time they can safely be rejected.

You call upon us to take the idea that there is a god seriously, but why is that claim worth our attention? Is it your opinion that all unlogical and unsupported claims (alien abductions etc) are worth thinking about, or only the god claim?

Brave to sit at a pc and espouse your views to those may disagree? I think not, we all do it on a forum.

As you say there is more than one religion there have been many thousands of them, let's say there have been 150 mainstrean religions throughout the last 2500 years, that's puts the chances of your religion being the true one at 150 to one against. There is ONLY one evolution theory. If there is a 50:50 chance of God or evolution then evolution has a 50% chance of being the answer whereas the chance of your religion being 'right' is actually 300 to 1 against. If I offered you these odds on two horses you'd pick evolution everytime. Assuming you were able to bet.

So I see God as being statistically unlikely, scientifically unlikely, no personal experience of it so unlikely, physically unlikely. On the God side there is only anecdotal evidence, nothing physical ie no absolute proof god created anything. All the way through history, every tribe and nation has at some point worshiped a god, this makes it clear to me that man needs such a thing some inner part of him refuses to believe death is permanent final and not a transition to a 'better life', I know others use this argument to say "If we all feel this need then there must be a god" that's a matter of opinion - it's not kids that invent gods, it's adults, adults who realise that one day they won't wake up anymore.

Jeremyhfht,

I do as well. At least, I leave it exist as one of the "occult possibilities" I've ended up comming to in research.

You appear to be talking about 'gods' as opposed to 'God', there is a difference. And yes I understand that 'gods' are created beings.

How do you know God does not interact with humanity?
Maybe God is not what you think Him to be, with all due respect, you don't sound like you have grasped the basic understanding of who or what God is. In fact you are very open in your contempt of just the idea of person, or thing, such as God.
What signs would you expect God to give the whole of humanity, regardless of their spiritual position, that He interacts with humanity?

You're talking bullocks. Who are you to assume he does?

I don't assume that He does anymore than you assume that He doesn't, my position is that I believe He exists.

You missed the most important one out;
4) That very few people are actually qualified, in this day and age, to understand what and who He is, and as such cannot comprehend Him.

One cannot comprehend that which doesn't have physical form if one only has a physical form. Nobody can. You fail.

Does music have a physical form?
Does an idea have a physical form?
Does love have a physical form?
Yet I am willing to bet even you can comprehend these in some way, so I'm afraid you're the one who has failed.

[quote]

That's fair enough, but why don't you be more honest and admit you don't care whether God exists or not, and are interpreting science in such a way as to back it up.
I say this, because there is so much you are not even prepared to basically learn about God.

You say "you are not even prepared" like you've proven god does exist.

I am not responsible for how you percieve statements, but I can see that there is nothing in what I said that give such an impression.


Jan.

I lean to the possibility that God is the ultimate emergent property of the Universe who, by a recursive act, loops back in time and creates the Universe. It has a nice elegance and is wholly consistent with current theories of cosmology and evolution.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

I lean to the possibility that God is the ultimate emergent property of the Universe who, by a recursive act, loops back in time and creates the Universe. It has a nice elegance and is wholly consistent with current theories of cosmology and evolution.

Is it elegant to assume a unique and unknown "conscious being", which only postpones the question of what came first? I say leave unknown what is unknown, instead of filling it in with our imagination.

Originally Posted by jan ardena

You appear to be talking about 'gods' as opposed to 'God', there is a difference. And yes I understand that 'gods' are created beings.

Yeah, see, I'm suggesting there isn't a "God". Just them.

Does music have a physical form?
Does an idea have a physical form?
Does love have a physical form?
Yet I am willing to bet even you can comprehend these in some way, so I'm afraid you're the one who has failed.

Sound waves.
Neurons.
Chemical reactions.
FATALITY!!

See, the "god" gene is much like the "gay" gene or "bi" gene or "Einstein" gene (they have genes for everything). Completely moronic, and most hold almost no credibility with anybody who studied it. of course then you have people that prefer to blame it on a gene like it's a disease...but that's why it exists to begin with.

And actually I've "convinced" a theist to be more of an agnostic. Also, someone had "convinced" me to stop being ignorant and actually study. That led to a three+ year study which still continues, but in the meantime I'm atheist now. XP

I guess you missed the part where I said it didn't have to be a gene. oh lord(pardon the pun) so literal.... my point was that some part of the human mind makes belief possible or impossible.

As for you convincing a theist to be agnostic... you just helped me prove my point. He/she isn't an atheist... an agnostic believes there is a higher power, but it can't be proven. So that fundamental belief is still there. I used to be a catholic, now i'm not, but the idea that NO higher power exists is just beyond me...

Dracu wrote

an agnostic believes there is a higher power, but it can't be proven. So that fundamental belief is still there.

What do you call someone who is not sure whether there is a higher power or not, because he believes it is unknowable?

Originally Posted by Draculogenes

an agnostic believes there is a higher power, but it can't be proven. So that fundamental belief is still there. ..

No. As a devout agnostic I can assure you I do not believe in a higher power, nor do I disbelieve in a higher power. I do not know. Some agnostics maintain that we can never know. I maintain that I do not only not know, but I do not know if we can never know. I am resolute in my uncertainty.

I used to be indecisive about God now I'm not so sure.