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Thread: Evidence for Christ

  1. #201  
    ***** Participant Write4U's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    The evidence of Jesus is historic, imo. I doubt you will find what your looking for with out faith in Christs message.
    Are you saying that faith will lead you to the historical artifacts and evidence of a Jesus as described in the bible?

    Seems there is some evidence that jesus existed, was a carpenter, and claimed to be the son of god.

    You mean that you doubt an atheist will find comfort in Jesus' messages unless he acquires faith in his godhood and his magical powers and discards the historical artifacts and evidence that can be historically confirmed.

    You know of course that if you were to tell an atheist that jesus and god are allegorical avatars, used in an attempt to explain the Universe and the nature of certain perceived actions by unseen forces, the atheist would heartily agree and have a wonderful discussion with you the merits and drawbacks of Jesus' messages and the concepts of Universal Wholeness in context of a Universal Self Awareness.

    But to a skeptical thinker faith, by definition, offers the greatest uncertainty of interpretation and deals with vague images, dreamlike visions of a physical tug-o-war between Good and Evil, represented by the avatars of god and jesus (man god), and of course the Devil and his little sinful minions (demons), This imaginary world has it's own avatar named Woo!

    It is a tribute to our ability to imagine, but not a tribute to factual truth. Many authors have written wonderful books and novels on man's emotional and ethical struggles. It takes no faith to find truth and truth is what I am looking for, not belief.
    Last edited by Write4U; July 6th, 2013 at 04:11 PM.
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    Do you definitive proof that Jesus didn't exist ? Below is the thoughts of A.E. on the existance of Jesus. I lean this way and its alright by me if you don't. Like I posted earlier, its the message of Jesus that proves his existence.

    "You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"
    "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
     

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    Since the gospels were written hundreds of years after the Jesus supposedly lived, they're certainly no kind of evidence as to his existence.

    I hope that AE isn't Einstein. Because here's what he says about the bible

    The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text.*
    Last edited by AlexG; July 6th, 2013 at 05:57 PM.
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    Yes A.E. is Albert and depending on his age he had different thoughts on God. Here is a video that examines the case for the existence of Jesus historically that doesn't use the Bible for references.
    Historical Evidence of the Existence of Jesus: Chris White - YouTube
     

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    From another youtube by Chris White.

    Chris White explains how to truly follow Jesus the Messiah.
    This is not an unbiased source. His source for the youtube you link to is 'Thedivineevidence.com'. It's a video made by believers, for believers.

    BTW, Einstein was raised in an orthodox jewish household, and rejected belief in god at a very early age. He NEVER believed in Jesus or the New Testament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    its the message of Jesus that proves his existence.
    And the search for the woozle proves the existence of Winnie The Pooh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    Do you definitive proof that Jesus didn't exist ? Below is the thoughts of A.E. on the existance of Jesus. I lean this way and its alright by me if you don't. Like I posted earlier, its the message of Jesus that proves his existence.
    This could be used as supporting evidence of the existence of a wise man and teacher named Jesus who was crucified for his radical views at the time.

    "You accept the historical existence of Jesus?"
    ]
    That just makes him a man and likely even a philosopher. Does that make him a god? Not by a long shot. How on earth could Jesus be sure that he was the son of a god impregnating a virgin. Please keep it simple, Jesus was the physical son of Mary and Joseph or some other man (perhaps priest). No one cares who the father of Jesus was! We do know his father was a human male, if not Jesus would have been a female and a clone of Mary.

    Christian insistence that Jesus was a god is the single greatest reason for any dispute, because that is pure fantasy, for which no proof will ever be provided. Did Jesus exist? Probably. Was he a natural leader? Likely. Could he perform miracles? Naahhhh. Was he a god? Not by a long shot!

    My advise, stay with reality of his moral message. That alone is sufficient for serious study and earnest debate.
     

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    Is it the lack of the physical proof of the existence of Jesus or the lack of the historical proof of Jesus that is problematic for you ? Both physical and historical proof you seek might be hard to obtain as the people involved with Jesus were labeled as insurgents by the societies of that time.

    Yes, miracles can be attributed to Jesus still to this day depending on your faith or belief. Many people experiencing near death experiences have reported seeing Jesus and family members. Jesus does fit one part of the definition of God in that he is the source of all moral authority to those that believe his word.
     

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    To be honest, after reading the remaining posts since I last commented, I'm quite surprised and very disappointed in what I have read, up to this point I have kept myself in check about the conduct of some of the people on this thread the pettiness, arrogance and bigoted responses, but now I'm just going to be blunt. This is not a thread anymore about discerning the truth, it is purely a figurative carrot on a stick that is being used by many of you to purely discredit and shun anyone who doesn't have a purely scientific thesis on the issue. Many of you have taken comments out of context and compared the responses by myself and others with ridiculous and obviously off the point comparatives, it reminds me of the scientists of the 19th century who, although made brilliant breakthroughs, due the socio-political agendas of the time shunned ideas that have been around since the dawn of humanities existence, one example is the existence of Troy, until it was discovered. In regards to the evidence for CHRIST and the evidence for JESUS, two separate topics of discussion, this clearly requires two different approaches, the evidence for JESUS, in the historical context, is the evidence from historical, biblical and other sources, and is a no brainer, he obviously existed. The evidence for CHRIST is whether he was the messiah and son of god, this is where scientific explanation stops and where life experience as well as the individual perspective of the person viewing the evidence comes into it. This is NOT based on empirical study, I cannot give you direct evidence to say Jesus is the son of god, I can reference the bible obviously but due to the fact that I was, not so long ago, an Atheist/agnostic I know that this is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot. At the same time you cannot give me or others evidence to say he is definitely not the son of god. This thread was always going to cause tension and argument, but in future I suggest it should at least be done in a grown-up fashion rather than petty criticism of something that, up to a point, isn't in the realms of science anyway.
     

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    So you're just arguing for belief and faith.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
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    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

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    So you're just arguing for belief and faith.
    In a way, more the fact that if there are going to be open discussions about religion etc then perhaps there should be more leniency to these concepts of belief. I have always considered that religion and science to be two sides to a broken bridge, to find truth I believe we must use both sides, i.e. the realms of possibility rather than arrogance which both sides are guilty of, which I will admit requires a bit faith and belief on either side. If not then debates like this will keep going on in a vicious circle with everyone getting no more knowledgeable than when we started
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    Is it the lack of the physical proof of the existence of Jesus or the lack of the historical proof of Jesus that is problematic for you ? Both physical and historical proof you seek might be hard to obtain as the people involved with Jesus were labeled as insurgents by the societies of that time.
    No they weren't, else there would be records and there are none. There is no contemporaneous evidence for a biblical Jesus, and there isn't any for a historical Jesus either, in the bible or anywhere else. Though there may have been such a man. There are no records for such. I'm willing to agree there could have been such a man. but not a magic miracle making divine one.

    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007
    Yes, miracles can be attributed to Jesus still to this day depending on your faith or belief.
    Lol, well of course. As do Muslims attribute the same to Mohamed, and Hindus attribute the same to Vishnu. Prove there were miracles and prove they were made by the person you claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007
    Many people experiencing near death experiences have reported seeing Jesus and family members.
    That has been thoroughly debunked, got anything better. Think about it why do people who have these experience only have them in regard to their own beliefs. Muslims have Muslim NDE's, Hindus have Hindu NDE's etc etc..
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007
    Jesus does fit one part of the definition of God in that he is the source of all moral authority to those that believe his word.
    Well he would wouldn't he. You wouldn't be much of a Christian if he didn't would you.

    You keep making unsubstanciated claims, it is about time you backed some of it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia007
    This is NOT based on empirical study, I cannot give you direct evidence to say Jesus is the son of god, I can reference the bible obviously but due to the fact that I was, not so long ago, an Atheist/agnostic I know that this is about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.
    So you are trying to make me believe that you went from rationality to irrationality, that's like saying you didn't believe in the tooth fairy and now you do. [sarcasm]"Yes I believe that!"[/sarcasm]
    If you are trying to say you were an atheist then pray tell what argument convinced you?
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    Can you back up your claims that Jesus did not exist ? Saying he didn't exist isn't proof. Back it up with something substantial please. Where is your silver bullet ?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    So you're just arguing for belief and faith.
    In a way, more the fact that if there are going to be open discussions about religion etc then perhaps there should be more leniency to these concepts of belief. I have always considered that religion and science to be two sides to a broken bridge, to find truth I believe we must use both sides, i.e. the realms of possibility rather than arrogance which both sides are guilty of, which I will admit requires a bit faith and belief on either side. If not then debates like this will keep going on in a vicious circle with everyone getting no more knowledgeable than when we started
    But this forum is named The Scientific Study of Religion. Belief doesn't enter into science.
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    So you are trying to make me believe that you went from rationality to irrationality, that's like saying you didn't believe in the tooth fairy and now you do. [sarcasm]"Yes I believe that!"[/sarcasm]
    If you are trying to say you were an atheist then pray tell what argument convinced you?
    Don't be absurd, rationality and faith are two entirely separate things, one does not denote or replace the other. I was an atheist at one stage yes, believe it or not I actually had to force myself to say God in conversations about the subject, my own personal experiences in life changed that perception, upon reviewing the documentation as well, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't become a theist (Christian in my case), through purely the evidence in front of you. I am a realist, if something doesn't work then I don't follow/do it, I wouldn't be a Christian if it didn't work. Also being a student of history, I have compared the biblical stories of Jesus to other events in history and I can assure you that there is no such event that exists in time that has shaped and still is shaping lives and history more than Jesus, if he didn't exist or there was no truth to it then that is a very impressive lie that can do that and last I checked anything that hasn't been genuine generally is lost in time.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    Can you back up your claims that Jesus did not exist ? Saying he didn't exist isn't proof. Back it up with something substantial please. Where is your silver bullet ?
    What is being said is that there is no contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus, and there should have been, especially given that the Romans were record keepers.

    The earliest reference to Jesus is almost 100 years after his supposed death.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

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    What is being said is that there is no contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus, and there should have been, especially given that the Romans were record keepers.
    The earliest reference to Jesus is almost 100 years after his supposed death.
    If he were roman I'd have expected as much as well, but if you look at the region, social climate, events transpiring after his death and roman political atmosphere in the region and in Rome as well as the fact that Jesus wasn't a roman, its not such a big issue really, and the fact that 100 years in historical context to reference to anyone in this time period is very unlikely.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    What is being said is that there is no contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus, and there should have been, especially given that the Romans were record keepers.
    The earliest reference to Jesus is almost 100 years after his supposed death.
    If he were roman I'd have expected as much as well, but if you look at the region, social climate, events transpiring after his death and roman political atmosphere in the region and in Rome as well as the fact that Jesus wasn't a roman, its not such a big issue really, and the fact that 100 years in historical context to reference to anyone in this time period is very unlikely.
    He, and supposedly Mary and Joseph were residence in a Roman controlled land, yet appear on no tax rolls. Jesus was ordered executed by the Roman governor himself, but there's no record of it.

    100 years in this historical context means there were no people still alive who supposedly saw him. And given no records, everything is hearsay.
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    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    I have always considered that religion and science to be two sides to a broken bridge, to find truth I believe we must use both sides
    Oh good.
    Please outline for the occasions where religion has given us a truth.
    Especially those that science couldn't get at (since you say we must use both).
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; July 7th, 2013 at 04:06 PM.
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    He, and supposedly Mary and Joseph were residence in a Roman controlled land, yet appear on no tax rolls. Jesus was ordered executed by the Roman governor himself, but there's no record of it.
    I have mentioned this event twice prior but it seems to not have taken into account, in 70AD the siege of Jerusalem took place, the romans sacked the city and the temple was destroyed, this building was the centre of the roman/Jewish rule in the region as such all the local records would have stored in the building, including taxation records/scrolls etc, however the main reference from the region comes from Josephus who did mention Jesus.
    100 years in this historical context means there were no people still alive who supposedly saw him. And given no records, everything is hearsay.
    we also have to consider the Christian writings as well, the earliest being dated between 20 and 50 years after the events. Pontius Pilate has pretty much exactly the same reference as Jesus except he has archaeological evidence to prove he existed i.e. a stone inscription with his name and title, by default we can defer that if Pontius Pilate existed then it is very likely Jesus did as well
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    So you are trying to make me believe that you went from rationality to irrationality, that's like saying you didn't believe in the tooth fairy and now you do. [sarcasm]"Yes I believe that!"[/sarcasm]
    If you are trying to say you were an atheist then pray tell what argument convinced you?
    Don't be absurd, rationality and faith are two entirely separate things, one does not denote or replace the other. I was an atheist at one stage yes, believe it or not I actually had to force myself to say God in conversations about the subject, my own personal experiences in life changed that perception, upon reviewing the documentation as well, but what I'm trying to say is that you don't become a theist (Christian in my case), through purely the evidence in front of you. I am a realist, if something doesn't work then I don't follow/do it, I wouldn't be a Christian if it didn't work. Also being a student of history, I have compared the biblical stories of Jesus to other events in history and I can assure you that there is no such event that exists in time that has shaped and still is shaping lives and history more than Jesus, if he didn't exist or there was no truth to it then that is a very impressive lie that can do that and last I checked anything that hasn't been genuine generally is lost in time.
    I am sorry but if I present you with a very good moral message, such as the "golden rule", then follow that up with attributing this profound philosophical mandate with claiming it was told to me by a pink elephant, what would be your response? And if I then followed that up with claiming that the Golden rule does not work unless you believe in my Pink elephant, what would be your response?

    Again, anyone who wants to have a productive discussion on the teachings of Jesus, will find many impartial philosophers to discuss the merits of his messages.
    The problem does not lie with atheist. An atheist can entertain a thought, without believing in it's objective truth. A theist cannot entertain a thought without believing in a god a subjective experience (such as seeing a pink elephant).

    But there are scientific papers which explain the phenomena of the mirror neural network, charisma, belief, and eventually worship of an imaginary Pink elephant (by any other name).
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    I am sorry but if I present you with a very good moral message, such as the "golden rule", then follow that up with attributing this profound philosophical mandate with claiming it was told to me by a pink elephant, what would be your response? And if I then followed that up with claiming that the Golden rule does not work unless you believe in my Pink elephant, what would be your response?
    There is more to it than that, I could go into the theological side of Christianity but to be honest I would be typing for quite awhile. If we were face to face I would be happy to explain it.
    Again, anyone who wants to have a productive discussion on the teachings of Jesus, will find many impartial philosophers to discuss the merits of his messages.
    The problem does not lie with atheist. An atheist can entertain a thought, without believing in it's objective truth. A theist cannot entertain a thought without believing in god a subjective experience.
    Of course a theist can entertain such thought, I do it all the time, we have creativity and innovation, I'm sure if god didn't mean us to have those things either we wouldn't have them or life wouldn't be very fun
    But there are scientific papers which explain the phenomena of the mirror neural network, charisma, belief, and eventually worship of an imaginary Pink elephant (by any other name).
    could you send me a link for this? This has caught my interest
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    I have mentioned this event twice prior but it seems to not have taken into account
    On the contrary: it has been addressed by at least two people.
    Perhaps you should go back and read the thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    A theist cannot entertain a thought without believing in god a subjective experience.
    Of course a theist can entertain such thought, I do it all the time, we have creativity and innovation, I'm sure if god didn't mean us to have those things either we wouldn't have them or life wouldn't be very fun
    ROFL!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    So you are trying to make me believe that you went from rationality to irrationality, that's like saying you didn't believe in the tooth fairy and now you do. [sarcasm]"Yes I believe that!"[/sarcasm]
    If you are trying to say you were an atheist then pray tell what argument convinced you?
    Don't be absurd, rationality and faith are two entirely separate things, one does not denote or replace the other.
    Hence why I asked the question, what argument convinced you? Because we use reason in every aspect of our lives. The only reason a person would go from rational to irrational would be a traumatic experience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    I have mentioned this event twice prior but it seems to not have taken into account, in 70AD the siege of Jerusalem took place, the romans sacked the city and the temple was destroyed, this building was the centre of the roman/Jewish rule in the region as such all the local records would have stored in the building, including taxation records/scrolls etc, however the main reference from the region comes from Josephus who did mention Jesus.
    Two points, 1, agreeing that there is no contemporaneous evidence isn't helping your case. And 2, Josephus, never mentioned Jesus, a christ was mentioned in the TF (Testimonium Flavianum), but the TF is suspect. due to interpolations within it. which a Jew, (which is what Josephus was,) would never have written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    we also have to consider the Christian writings as well, the earliest being dated between 20 and 50 years after the events.
    None being contemporaneous. Exactly
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Pontius Pilate has pretty much exactly the same reference as Jesus except he has archaeological evidence to prove he existed i.e. a stone inscription with his name and title, by default we can defer that if Pontius Pilate existed then it is very likely Jesus did as well
    No we can't, because there is nothing written about Jesus at the time of Pilate. With your line of thinking we could say that James Bond exists simply because Queen Elizabeth the second does, how stupid!

    Addendum: In regard to the TF I refer you to my post# 11 and in regard to the siege of Jerusalem, I refer you to Meraxes post# 132.
    Last edited by pavlos; July 7th, 2013 at 04:36 PM. Reason: Addenum:
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    On the contrary: it has been addressed by at least two people.
    Perhaps you should go back and read the thread.
    Fair point, but I didn't know if AlexG had seen it
    A theist cannot entertain a thought without believing in god a subjective experience. Of course a theist can entertain such thought, I do it all the time, we have creativity and innovation, I'm sure if god didn't mean us to have those things either we wouldn't have them or life wouldn't be very fun ROFL!
    yes I am aware of my contradiction, stop acting like a child, I obviously didn't read what I typed properly but you can see the point I was trying to put across btw the main person I referred to earlier in my rather large comment beginning with 'to be honest' is mainly referring to you.
    Hence why I asked the question, what argument convinced you? Because we use reason in every aspect of our lives. The only reason a person would go from rational to irrational would be a traumatic experience.
    Its a long story, it wasn't just one thing, it was a lot of things combined, what are saying is irrational? belief in God?
    Two points, 1, agreeing that there is no contemporaneous evidence isn't helping your case. And 2, Josephus, never mentioned Jesus, a christ was mentioned in the TF (Testimonium Flavianum), but the TF is suspect. due to interpolations within it. which a Jew, (which is what Josephus was,) would never have written.
    I agree that the TF is suspect however the bit in question your talking about, with the interpolations excluded (through the style of writing) Jesus is still referenced, also he is referred to in the Talmud as well. In regards to contemporaneous evidence, I think you'll find that there are many figures/events in antiquity who have no very little evidence to there name.
    None being contemporaneous. Exactly
    you don't write about someone while there alive, normally after there dead people start writing about them.
    No we can't, because there is nothing written about Jesus at the time of Pilate. With your line of thinking we could say that James Bond exists simply because Queen Elizabeth the second does, how stupid!
    the Pilate stone dates between 26 AD and 37 AD which corroborates with the biblical account of his prefectship of Judea, and he is also referenced by Josephus.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    yes I am aware of my contradiction, stop acting like a child, I obviously didn't read what I typed properly but you can see the point I was trying to put across
    No, I can't see your point AT ALL since you convincingly (although, supposedly, unwittingly) destroyed your own argument.

    btw the main person I referred to earlier in my rather large comment beginning with 'to be honest' is mainly referring to you.
    Yeah, an ill-informed rant, verging on ad hom, by you that misses the point (in fact goes so far as to be dishonest) completely.
    Rather funny, actually.
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    Britainnia,

    Would you be satisfied with an atheist saying, "yes, Jesus existed, there is sufficient evidence to convince me. But there is absolutely no evidence that he was a god and therefore I reject the notion that Jesus was a god".
    Would that be sufficient belief in Jesus or would you expect more in order to truly appreciate the depth of his teachings?
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    Would you be satisfied with an atheist saying, "yes, Jesus existed, there is sufficient evidence to convince me. But there is absolutely no evidence that he was a god and therefore I reject the notion that Jesus was a god".
    Would that be sufficient belief in Jesus or would you expect more in order to truly appreciate the depth of his teachings?
    That's pretty much the only thing I wanted to do, the reason I posted on this thread was because I was quite amazed the topic was even being discussed, the belief that Jesus is god is an entirely different discussion, I think this thread has merged the two topics unintentionally. can I put forward an entirely new topic that I allured to earlier but didn't get round to describing in full?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    them or life wouldn't be very fun
    But there are scientific papers which explain the phenomena of the mirror neural network, charisma, belief, and eventually worship of an imaginary Pink elephant (by any other name).
    could you send me a link for this? This has caught my interest
    Michael Shermer: The pattern behind self-deception | Video on TED.com
    <
    Mirror neurons: Functions, mechanisms and models
    <
    Chapter 09.01 THE ORIGINS OF RELIGION

    All living organisms constantly compete for limited resources. Organisms that are better equipped then others in coping with their environment, have a better chance of surviving and thus replicating themselves and their genes. This mechanism is the essence of evolution. Evolution, in turn, is one of the three essential ingredients of life itself. Life on earth began with the process of evolution. Without evolution, there can be no life. (For the NASA definitions of Life see Chapter 5: Anthropology)

    The evolution of man conveyed to him advanced traits that positioned him above other animals on the ladder of evolution. His primary battle for survival, comfort and prosperity involved constant competition and conflict with his untamed environment, with nature. He perpetually faced danger, not only by competing human beings, but also by adverse natural events such as floods, hurricanes, droughts, thunderstorms and many other perils of nature.

    Man was able to cope successfully with some adversities, but he felt powerless to deal with many other events in nature that filled him with fear and awe. A thunderstorm often turned out to be the precursor of more serious events such as rains, floods or hail. Thunder and lightning made primitive man wonder if superior beings inhabited an invisible world in the sky and invoked various cataclysmic events.

    It would be natural for humanoids to appeal to such superior beings in the sky in order to solicit their help. It seemed reasonable to assume that these powerful, superior beings, these gods, were punishing humans for unknown reasons or merely for their pleasure. From this viewpoint, it required little imagination to try to appease these gods by appealing to them by means of prayers or by sacrifices of men or beasts.
    Sometimes these prayers and sacrifices seemed to bear fruit and sometimes they did not show any results whatsoever. Due to his lack of knowledge, it was difficult for primitive man to distinguish between miracles and cause/effect relationships. He merely presumed that prayers were sometimes effective in appealing to the gods. When a violent storm eased, he attributed the event more to the effect of his prayers, than to the fact that dry air had just replaced a cold front. Man had no insight in the processes of nature. He lacked knowledge, science and rationality.
    Religion: The Common Aspects of all Religions 09.01
    <
    Paranormal Phenomena and other Illusions 10.10 PSEUDO-SCIENCE
    Last edited by Write4U; July 7th, 2013 at 05:37 PM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Would you be satisfied with an atheist saying, "yes, Jesus existed, there is sufficient evidence to convince me. But there is absolutely no evidence that he was a god and therefore I reject the notion that Jesus was a god".
    Would that be sufficient belief in Jesus or would you expect more in order to truly appreciate the depth of his teachings?
    That's pretty much the only thing I wanted to do, the reason I posted on this thread was because I was quite amazed the topic was even being discussed, the belief that Jesus is god is an entirely different discussion, I think this thread has merged the two topics unintentionally. can I put forward an entirely new topic that I allured to earlier but didn't get round to describing in full?
    The problem lies in that Jesus claimed himself to be the son of god and that makes it difficult to argue any further declarations of truth. There is a saying that the most dangerous con man is the one who believes in his own con. I believe that some manic depressives exhibit such illusions of grandeur.
    But I do know that whatever the motive for saying so, Jesus was not a god in human form, he was a human, believing himself to be a god.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Hence why I asked the question, what argument convinced you? Because we use reason in every aspect of our lives. The only reason a person would go from rational to irrational would be a traumatic experience.
    Its a long story, it wasn't just one thing, it was a lot of things combined, what are saying is irrational?
    Belief without evidence is most definitely not rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    belief in God?
    Belief without evidence is most definitely not rational. If you had evidence you would be able to present it.
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Two points, 1, agreeing that there is no contemporaneous evidence isn't helping your case. And 2, Josephus, never mentioned Jesus, a christ was mentioned in the TF (Testimonium Flavianum), but the TF is suspect. due to interpolations within it. which a Jew, (which is what Josephus was,) would never have written.
    I agree that the TF is suspect however the bit in question your talking about, with the interpolations excluded (through the style of writing) Jesus is still referenced,
    No the TF does not mention a Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    also he is referred to in the Talmud as well.
    No it does not, the Talmud mentions a Yeshua(Jehoshua), who was hung for forty days before his execution. it also states he was born a hundred years pre-christ and that he had five disciples Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah who were executed along side him. Unless you are claiming now that this is your Jesus.
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    In regards to contemporaneous evidence, I think you'll find that there are many figures/events in antiquity who have no very little evidence to there name.
    Irrelevant. We are discussing Jesus. Just because others may not have too much evidence does not mean yours is legit.
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    None being contemporaneous. Exactly
    you don't write about someone while there alive, normally after there dead people start writing about them.
    But you do if they do something so extraordinary, you don't ignore it you chronicle it, but nobody did. When kings did battle their exploits were chronicled whilst they happened, else how do historians get the information, except for the chronicles of said kings, So anybody who was the son of god and did miracles etc. Would be so chronicled, but he wasn't
    Quote Originally Posted by britainnia
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No we can't, because there is nothing written about Jesus at the time of Pilate. With your line of thinking we could say that James Bond exists simply because Queen Elizabeth the second does, how stupid!
    the Pilate stone dates between 26 AD and 37 AD which corroborates with the biblical account of his prefectship of Judea, and he is also referenced by Josephus.
    Again irrelevant, you clearly did not read what was written, here it is again. "With that line of thinking we could say that James Bond exists simply because Queen Elizabeth the second does, how stupid!"

    Judging by your response thus far I don't believe for one second you were ever an atheist. Your level of thought is no different than any religious person I've ever come across. You throw out so many fallacies. it beggers belief.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pineapple007 View Post
    Why is it that atheists feel they need to push their non belief on society more so than a believer ?
    "More so"?
    Take a look at (Western) society - religion is so deeply embedded that it's almost taken as a given.
    That's what atheists get so vociferous about.
    "Western" is too broad. I'm in "The West" of Canada where Christianity is pretty much a tolerated underground thing, with no more legitimacy than a Freedom of ethnicity or allegiance to the English monarch on our pennies. Neither does my very Western wife from Tokyo find monotheism - or any religion - problematically embedded in her society.

    Granted in most lands Don Quixote isn't just tilting at windmills. But I wish he'd stop vociferating for the larger world of quiet atheists that are swiftly pushing half the world's population. To my ears, outspoken atheists sound like the guy in the Chinese restaurant who loudly mocks the silly Chinese myth that great lizards once roamed the Earth. See, it's time to restock, and move forward scientifically and without prejudice. I do see you're trying, Dywyddyr. And I know it sounds weak to say "most societies".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    "Western" is too broad. I'm in "The West" of Canada where Christianity is pretty much a tolerated underground thing, with no more legitimacy than a Freedom of ethnicity or allegiance to the English monarch on our pennies.
    No, you're conflating declared (personal) Christianity (or belief) with the overall underpinnings and effects of religion.
    The grasp of religion on (Western) societies is pretty much embedded, due to history.

    See, it's time to restock, and move forward scientifically and without prejudice. I do see you're trying, Dywyddyr. And I know it sounds weak to say "most societies".
    I'd say it's time to actually "dig out" and expose the totality of religion's hold on society.
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    pavlos

    Originally Posted by britainnia

    Originally Posted by pavlos
    Hence why I asked the question, what argument convinced you? Because we use reason in every aspect of our lives. The only reason a person would go from rational to irrational would be a traumatic experience.



    Its a long story, it wasn't just one thing, it was a lot of things combined, what are saying is irrational?



    Belief without evidence is most definitely not rational.
    Originally Posted by britainnia
    belief in God?



    Belief without evidence is most definitely not rational. If you had evidence you would be able to present it.
    we have come to the crunch part of the typical end result of a debate such as this, you can't prove equally he does not exist, I was hardly going to tell you my personal experiences, you might laugh at this but I go by the evidence through my experiences as well as the bible, belief in something does not just come from documentation alone or from disillusionment of a traumatic event as you put it
    No the TF does not mention a Jesus.
    Actually I think you'll find it does, it details Pontius Pilate and the execution of Jesus, although this is disputed as to whether there were Christian interpolations, the general consensus is that the core of the event, i.e. a man named Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate, is true
    No it does not, the Talmud mentions a Yeshua(Jehoshua), who was hung for forty days before his execution. it also states he was born a hundred years pre-christ and that he had five disciples Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah who were executed along side him. Unless you are claiming now that this is your Jesus.
    no I am not claiming this is Jesus however it is clear that if you read between the lines you can clearly see the Jews were trying to replicate the same aspects of Christianity, this was probably an effort by Judaism to counter the rise of Christianity
    But you do if they do something so extraordinary, you don't ignore it you chronicle it, but nobody did. When kings did battle their exploits were chronicled whilst they happened, else how do historians get the information, except for the chronicles of said kings, So anybody who was the son of god and did miracles etc. Would be so chronicled, but he wasn't
    Not really, for the Gallic wars of Caesar, the earliest copies we have are in the 9th century AD, as well as the fact that Josephus although the main chronicler in the region, is the only chronicler we have that can give us any kind of picture of what was going on in the region at the time, the other sources are from the new testament funnily enough and rabbinic sources, you have to also consider that although under roman rule, due to the social unrest of the Jewish people at the time against this rule, the romans countered it by giving the region almost self autonomy, a primitive form of devolution
    Again irrelevant, you clearly did not read what was written, here it is again. "With that line of thinking we could say that James Bond exists simply because Queen Elizabeth the second does, how stupid!"
    I did read it, but I chose to ignore it and concentrate on the topic in hand not the distraction of the comparison
    Judging by your response thus far I don't believe for one second you were ever an atheist. Your level of thought is no different than any religious person I've ever come across. You throw out so many fallacies. it beggers belief.
    well I've told you the truth, whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, in fact for a long while I actually had a hard time physically saying God let alone believing in him, so the implication now is that the level of thought of a person of religious belief is less so of a person of non-religious belief?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    you can't prove equally he does not exist
    And we're back to this.
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    no I am not claiming this is Jesus however it is clear that if you read between the lines you can clearly see the Jews were trying to replicate the same aspects of Christianity, this was probably an effort by Judaism to counter the rise of Christianity
    This is a fairly ludicrous claim, since the Talumd predates christianity by several hundred years.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    Can someone explain to me why these have to be exclusive and can not be inclusive? I believe Jesus was the son of God and also believe that we find out how God works through scientific observation. One does not automatically delete or replace the other. On the contrary they are two sides of the same coin
    As an atheist, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of people on this forum for whom any mention of religion turns off their ability for rational thought. Perhaps it's something to do with childhood trauma.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    "Western" is too broad. I'm in "The West" of Canada where Christianity is pretty much a tolerated underground thing, with no more legitimacy than a Freedom of ethnicity or allegiance to the English monarch on our pennies.
    No, you're conflating declared (personal) Christianity (or belief) with the overall underpinnings and effects of religion.
    The grasp of religion on (Western) societies is pretty much embedded, due to history.
    I actually chose the Queen on pennies illustration to indicate I get that you mean underpinnings.

    I feel like an asshat for saying this, but: proof? Proof of magnitude at least? One could say society is the running total of all sorts of underpinnings and effects, like Hollywood and Marxism and the Black Plague; scratch the surface you will find it. And so what if religion shapes our current worldview as much as the Moon landings or the atom bomb (which I don't sense it does). Can you demonstrate that the invisible finger of religion more oppresses my society than like, road rage or an overzealous Teacher's Union?

    Honestly I don't find religion anymore "grasping" Vancouver, Canada than Tokyo, Japan. So either something's grasping you not me, or we're confused about which nations fit the category of Western society. Hey to add confusion lemme ask: is the world becoming more or less Western?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    That's what atheists get so vociferous about.
    Meh. Some do, some don't. As an atheist, I think that it is about as important as any other aspect of of god(s). I would be more likely to get worked up about the impact of sport on my life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    I feel like an asshat for saying this, but: proof? Proof of magnitude at least? One could say society is the running total of all sorts of underpinnings and effects, like Hollywood and Marxism and the Black Plague; scratch the surface you will find it. And so what if religion shapes our current worldview as much as the Moon landings or the atom bomb (which I don't sense it does). Can you demonstrate that the invisible finger of religion more oppresses my society than like, road rage or an overzealous Teacher's Union?
    Hmm, okay.
    Maybe Canada is significantly more advanced than the rest of us, but...
    Do churches get tax breaks in Canada?
    How about "We are allowed to question people about their politics or ethics and expect them to defend their beliefs, or at least hold their own in any other important matter by recourse to evidence, yet somehow on the massive subject of God and how he might have us behave, all rational discussion must stop the moment we hear 'I believe'". (Derren Brown).
    The attitude that "everyone is entitled to their belief, and that belief must be respected" is insidiously prevalent - so much so I've been admonished severely for questioning it on other sites.
    How long did it take to get, for example, to get something as simple as taking the oath in a court of law to be separated from "swearing on the bible"?
    Here in the UK we're generally fairly relaxed on the religion thing - I usually take it for granted that anyone meet is more likely to be atheist (or CofE as we call it ) than not, but the fact remains that there's nearly as many churches as pubs, and pubs don't get tax breaks.

    Yeah, I admit that I've made a largely unsupported claim - but having done that I'm now inspired to start digging at just how much influence there is. I suppose I'll have to hit the books...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    we have come to the crunch part of the typical end result of a debate such as this, you can't prove equally he does not exist,
    I don't need too you are the one claiming existence, it would be infantile and nonsensical to try and prove non-existence, wouldn't it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    I was hardly going to tell you my personal experiences, you might laugh at this but I go by the evidence through my experiences as well as the bible, belief in something does not just come from documentation alone or from disillusionment of a traumatic event as you put it
    Ah but it does. It most certainly can't come from reason. So what other alternatives are there. Personal religious experiences as you call them are purely subjective so no good as evidence. So we can say with pure clarity that nothing reasonable convinced you, can't we.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    Actually I think you'll find it does,
    My bad, the TF does but Josephus never did. Josephus was a Jew, nowhere does anybody say or even suggest he was a Christian.

    He was working under the Romans so he would have never stated that Jesus was the messiah, as that would have been treasonable.
    He lived pretty close to the time alleged of Jesus, so he would not have put "to this day" at the end of the passage. That would indicate it was written centuries after, considering that most of the Christian movements disbanded. Shortly after Jesus death according to Acts 5: 35-39.

    Josephus devotes more time to writing about John the baptist than he does of Jesus, either John is more important or Jesus was and is a an interpolation.
    And apart from all that, when Josephus writes his antiquities of the Jews and he mentions the same time period in parallel passages, he writes nothing about Jesus, John or James. Not even the tiniest of references, is written. The TF in and by itself is an interpolation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    the general consensus is that the core of the event, i.e. a man named Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate, is true
    Is it, lol. Maybe in religious circles, but not else were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    no I am not claiming this is Jesus however it is clear that if you read between the lines you can clearly see the Jews were trying to replicate the same aspects of Christianity, this was probably an effort by Judaism to counter the rise of Christianity
    Lol, you are a trier I give you that. No we don't read between the lines this is how we make mistakes, we take what is written as verbatim. When J K Rolling writes that Harry Potter went to Hog-warts, We don't add an addendum that he went via Hagrigs house, as that is not what the author wrote.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    Not really, for the Gallic wars of Caesar, the earliest copies we have are in the 9th century AD, as well as the fact that Josephus although the main chronicler in the region, is the only chronicler we have that can give us any kind of picture of what was going on in the region at the time,
    Wrong! There are numerous writers from the time or very close.
    Here is a list.

    Lucius Annaeus Seneca wrote many philosophic (Stoic) and satirical books and letters (and Tragedies) in Rome.
    Petronius Arbiter wrote the Satyricon in Rome.
    C. Musonius Rufus wrote on Stoic philosophy in Rome.
    Aulus Persius Flaccus wrote several satires in Rome.
    Marcus Annaeus Lucanus wrote the Pharsalia (Civil War) in Rome.
    Hero(n) of Alexandria wrote many technical works, including astronomy.
    Geminus wrote on astronomy in Greece.
    Plutarch of Chaeronea wrote many works on history and philosophy in Rome and Boetia.
    Justus of Tiberias wrote a History of the Kings of the Jews shortly after the time of Jesus, and from the same region - his works are now lost, but Photius, Patriarch of Constantinople wrote in the 8th Century: ''Read the Chronicle of Justus of Tiberias, entitled A Chronicle of the Kings of the Jews in the form of a genealogy, by Justus of Tiberias. He came from Tiberias in Galilee, from which he took his name. He begins his history with Moses and carries it down to the death of the seventh Agrippa of the family of Herod and the last of the Kings of the Jews. His kingdom, which was bestowed upon him by Claudius, was extended by Nero, and still more by Vespasian. He died in the third year of Trajan, when the history ends. Justus' style is very concise and he omits a great deal that is of utmost importance. Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of his life, or the miracles performed by Him. His father was a Jew named Pistus; Justus himself, according to Josephus, was one of the most abandoned of men, a slave to vice and greed. He was a political opponent of Josephus, against whom he is said to have concocted several plots; but Josephus, although on several occasions he had his enemy in his power, only chastised him with words and let him go ... "
    Pliny the Elder (Gaius Plinius Secundus) wrote a large Natural History in Rome.
    Dio Chrysostom (Cocceianus Dio) was the dominant Roman Orator of the times (his works show Stoic and Cynic ideas), and wrote many works and gave many speeches in various Roman and Greek centres, of which 80 survive e.g. the Euboicus.
    Marcus Fabius Quintilianus, wrote the Education of an Orator in Rome - his many speeches are lost.
    Publius Papinius Statius wrote numerous poems (e.g. Ode to Sleep and the Thebaid) in Rome.
    None of these early writers even mentioned a Jesus or the gospel events.
    Only after the gospels became known in mid 2nd century ( long after the alleged events) did anyone mention a Jesus.
    There are about 50 writers from the 1st century - none of them mention a Jesus.
    But,they do mention many hundreds, maybe even thousands of characters in their histories - including minor nobodies like servants and family, un-important names mentioned once in passing.
    But nothing regarding a Jesus - he must have been much less important, and less known, and even less notable than the most minor nobody.

    Heres a few others you may want to look up.
    Aulus Perseus (60 AD)
    Columella (1 st. cent. AD)
    Dio Chrysostom (c. 40-c. 112 AD)
    Justus of Tiberious (c. 80 AD)
    Livy (59 BC-17 AD)
    Lucanus (fl. 63 AD)
    Lucius Flours (1st-2nd -cent. AD)
    Petronius (d. 66 AD)
    Phaedrus (c. 15 BC-c. 50 AD)
    Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD)
    Phlegon (1st cent. AD)
    Pliny the Elder (23?-69 AD)
    Plutarch (c.46-c. 119 AD)
    Pomponius Mela (40 AD)
    Rufus Curtius (1st cent. AD)
    Quintilian (c. 35-c. 100 AD)
    Quintus Curtius (1st cent. AD)
    Seneca (4 BC?-65 AD)
    Silius Italicus (.25-101 AD)
    Statius Caelicius (1st cent. AD)
    Theon of Smyrna (c. 70-c.135 AD)
    Valerius Flaccus (1st cent AD)
    Valerius Maximus (fl. c. 20 AD).

    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    the other sources are from the new testament funnily enough and rabbinic sources, you have to also consider that although under Roman rule, due to the social unrest of the Jewish people at the time against this rule, the romans countered it by giving the region almost self autonomy, a primitive form of devolution
    You will use any BS to try and prove your point, it is irrelevant whether they had self rule they where still a Roman province and subject to such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    I did read it, but I chose to ignore it and concentrate on the topic in hand not the distraction of the comparison
    So you used a strawman, and a little dodging, ok got you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007
    well I've told you the truth,
    No you told me what you wanted me to believe, but no sir I'm not falling for such BS.
    Last edited by pavlos; July 8th, 2013 at 04:40 PM. Reason: missing word
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    @Dywyddyr. Thanks. I actually appreciate when people assert bold positions. It's an unexpected consequence of living mainly in atheist/agnostic ...oh so reasonable... circles.

    Tax breaks for churches doesn't look corrupt when they're required (and sometimes audited) to operate non-profit, and in fact the ones that move significant money are deliberately transparent charities. If your pub business makes zero profit then it's practically operating with a tax break too. I think local governments view churches as handy welfare tools, like they might convert some church basements for subsidized childcare, if there's a sudden need, or rope-in some church people to staff a needle exchange program, that kinda thing. They might be doing this to circumvent the higher cost of unionized workers... I'm just speculating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Tax breaks for churches doesn't look corrupt when they're required (and sometimes audited) to operate non-profit, and in fact the ones that move significant money are deliberately transparent charities.
    I'm not saying that it's corruption, but why should churches get tax breaks?
    Especially since, at least as popular opinion has it, the Church of England is the biggest land owner in Britain (for example).

    If your pub business makes zero profit then it's practically operating with a tax break too.
    There's a difference between operating at a certain level and being absolved from taxation by law.
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  45. #245  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post
    Can someone explain to me why these have to be exclusive and can not be inclusive? I believe Jesus was the son of God and also believe that we find out how God works through scientific observation. One does not automatically delete or replace the other. On the contrary they are two sides of the same coin
    As an atheist, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. Unfortunately, there seem to be a lot of people on this forum for whom any mention of religion turns off their ability for rational thought. Perhaps it's something to do with childhood trauma.
    I find it a little surprising, Strange, that you would agree with the logic of the above statement.
    As presented,

    a = Jesus is the son of god
    b = we may find out who or what god is through science.
    c = they are intertwined and one cannot be without the other.

    Can you explain your reasoning, please. It is impossible to solve this equation as presented.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I find it a little surprising, Strange, that you would agree with the logic of the above statement.
    As presented,

    a = Jesus is the son of god
    b = we may find out who or what god is through science.
    c = they are intertwined and one cannot be without the other.

    Can you explain your reasoning, please. It is impossible to solve this equation as presented.
    The problem seems to be that you didn't read what was written:

    a = AndreaCristiano believes Jesus is the son of god. He may also like football. I have no interest in either.

    b = I see no conflict: science tells us about the world (whether you believe it came about by an act of creation or not). Numbers tell us who won a game of football, even if you think the game is pointless.

    c = Where does anyone say "one cannot be without the other"? You made that up.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  47. #247  
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndreaCristiano View Post

    Can someone explain to me why these have to be exclusive and can not be inclusive? I believe Jesus was the son of God and also believe that we find out how God works through scientific observation. One does not automatically delete or replace the other. On the contrary they are two sides of the same coin
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I find it a little surprising, Strange, that you would agree with the logic of the above statement.
    As presented,

    a = Jesus is the son of god
    b = we may find out who or what god is through science.
    c = they are intertwined and one cannot be without the other.

    Can you explain your reasoning, please. It is impossible to solve this equation as presented.
    The problem seems to be that you didn't read what was written:

    a = AndreaCristiano believes Jesus is the son of god. He may also like football. I have no interest in either.
    This is not correct. Andrea believes Jesus is the son of God (not the son of a footballcoach). God is not defined (not even as football), but may be known through science (impossible given the defined qualities of God). But they are "sides of the same coin" (related), IOW. Believing in one is believing in the other they cannot be imagined separately by a theist. That IS the problem.

    b = I see no conflict: science tells us about the world (whether you believe it came about by an act of creation or not). Numbers tell us who won a game of football, even if you think the game is pointless.
    The reference to football is not correct. Andrea asserts that God is an unknown quantity which may or may not be examined. But only after we know the qualities of God can we believe that Jesus is the son of such a Being.

    were does anyone say "one cannot be without the other"? You made that up.
    Andrea said, "they are sides of the same coin''. That clearly explains the relationship.

    Even being generous I have a problem with the assumption that Jesus is the son and the human expression of an unknown quantity named God, which may or may not be known through science. Is that something special?

    So far there is no scientific evidence for God, thus the statement "son of God" becomes a meaningless phrase, until we figure out the properties of god.

    I am sorry but I extracted it exactly as written. The conditions in the equation were stated clearly and present a paradox.

    I have previously stated that I don't give a hoot who Jesus' daddy was, except to say that he was also a male human and almost certainly not a god. Which makes Jesus just a man, a teacher, nothing divine in itself. I have credited Jesus with some beneficial qualities, although it seems he was not a law abiding citizen, with all that burning of temples and whatnot.

    I object to the claim that Jesus was the son of God and therefore had special (but scientifically undefined) powers to declare "only through me shall ye.......?????
    Last edited by Write4U; July 8th, 2013 at 02:56 PM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am sorry but I extracted it exactly as written.
    That is not true.

    I am not going to defend whatever Andrea believes because I don't know what it is and I don't care about it.

    I object to the claim that Jesus was the son of God
    And I don't care what you believe, either.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am sorry but I extracted it exactly as written.
    That is not true.

    I am not going to defend whatever Andrea believes because I don't know what it is and I don't care about it.

    I object to the claim that Jesus was the son of God
    And I don't care what you believe, either.
    I am sorry about that, because I do care what you or anyone else believes in and on what basis. The implications are profound on a global scale.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am sorry about that, because I do care what you or anyone else believes in and on what basis. The implications are profound on a global scale.
    Well, it might be nice to think that my beliefs had any significance at all but ... I don't believe you.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
     

  51. #251  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Write4U View Post
    I am sorry about that, because I do care what you or anyone else believes in and on what basis. The implications are profound on a global scale.
    Well, it might be nice to think that my beliefs had any significance at all but ... I don't believe you.

    The TITLE of this thread is: "Evidence for Christ"

    This has been the context of every post I have made here.

    Perhaps you have not bothered to read my insignificant previous posts in this thread. I believe that once you do you will believe me (if not agree with me) prima facie, unlike the assumption that Jesus is the divine son of God (Christ) and then asserting that proof of the existence of Jesus is proof of his Divinity.
    Last edited by Write4U; July 8th, 2013 at 05:56 PM.
     

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    Very interesting thread. I've watched quite a few debates on youtube recently, and seems like one of the most "convincing" proofs the theist side has to offer is the undeniable historical evidence of jesus's existence. What historical evidence (other than the bible itself) are they all referring to exactly?
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    Welcome Bloomer.

    Their evidence for Jesus is as visible as their god.
    Last edited by pavlos; July 14th, 2013 at 05:31 PM. Reason: spelling
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    Lol, then perhaps the 'real' Da Vinci code was about the invention of Christ and this was the indeed real con of man.
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    ~ The issue I see is this. " I believe. " and then the problems start. What is it you 'believe' and why is there such a willingness to believe what can not and has not been proven as factual.
    It would seem to be little more than a fabrication of legends of not a single historic event.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ The issue I see is this. " I believe. " and then the problems start. What is it you 'believe' and why is there such a willingness to believe what can not and has not been proven as factual.
    It would seem to be little more than a fabrication of legends of not a single historic event.
    It seems that "being part" of this hidden spiritual world is a powerful incentive if not aphrodisiac.
    Some want to be Glenda the good witch and some want to be Dracula to suck your blood. And fly, fly, fly.............
     

  57. #257  
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ The issue I see is this. " I believe. " and then the problems start. What is it you 'believe' and why is there such a willingness to believe what can not and has not been proven as factual.
    It would seem to be little more than a fabrication of legends of not a single historic event.
    For the same reasons, why should an assertion be false when it has been neither been proven to be true or proven to be false? Shouldn't the default position be "I don't know for sure"?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by mvb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ The issue I see is this. " I believe. " and then the problems start. What is it you 'believe' and why is there such a willingness to believe what can not and has not been proven as factual.
    It would seem to be little more than a fabrication of legends of not a single historic event.
    For the same reasons, why should an assertion be false when it has been neither been proven to be true or proven to be false? Shouldn't the default position be "I don't know for sure"?
    Agreed, though as evidence is examined and weighed, one can start to shift the probability away from 50/50. At some point the probabilities can get so skewed in one direction that for all practical purposes, that extreme probability can be viewed as true.

    For me, I'd say the chances of a person(s) "Jesus" having existed and was written about is maybe at about 15 or 20% (rough personal interpretation of the evidence at hand of course), while the divinity of this Jesus and his miracles as described in the Bible having happened, I'd have to say that has easily crossed the threshold into being as close to untrue as the probabilities can meaningfully get (along with Zeus, Medusa, Kali, etc).
    pavlos, MrMojo1, astromark and 1 others like this.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
     

  59. #259  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by mvb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    ~ The issue I see is this. " I believe. " and then the problems start. What is it you 'believe' and why is there such a willingness to believe what can not and has not been proven as factual.
    It would seem to be little more than a fabrication of legends of not a single historic event.
    For the same reasons, why should an assertion be false when it has been neither been proven to be true or proven to be false? Shouldn't the default position be "I don't know for sure"?
    Agreed, though as evidence is examined and weighed, one can start to shift the probability away from 50/50. At some point the probabilities can get so skewed in one direction that for all practical purposes, that extreme probability can be viewed as true.

    For me, I'd say the chances of a person(s) "Jesus" having existed and was written about is maybe at about 15 or 20% (rough personal interpretation of the evidence at hand of course), while the divinity of this Jesus and his miracles as described in the Bible having happened, I'd have to say that has easily crossed the threshold into being as close to untrue as the probabilities can meaningfully get (along with Zeus, Medusa, Kali, etc).
    It seems to me that the existence of Jesus is rather likely simply given the extensive spread and the enthusiasm of his followers. I agree that the miracles and interpretation of his status are a different issue, starting from a perhaps lower starting probability, depending of course on what you think about the likelihood of a creator of the universe who does not seem currently to openly interact with the universe very often.
     

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    It seems to me that the existence of Jesus is rather likely simply given the extensive spread and the enthusiasm of his followers
    Forty million Frenchmen can't be wrong?
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
     

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    ~ I could take that idea to the next step and suggest that not only was there a 'Jesus' from Nazareth,

    but a good number of them might have been real people. Unfortunately finding that DNA line is going to be difficult as

    It is said that the body vanished.. from it's tomb. All of which presents real issues for the proving of facts as yet not found..

    I would think that in the Nazareth society the name ' Jesus' was not so rare..

    Finding that one of them was a prophet with twelve followers.. and wandered about giving speeches could not be proven as fact.

    Finding historic record of such a man still does not give weight to the fact, that miracles did never actually happen.

    So in my view of this question is; Yes there in all probability was a, or several, Jesus's of Nazareth..'s

    but that not one of them can be proven to have been the son of a Father.... Oh wait a minute.. Oops.

    A child born to a woman out of wedlock and poor old Joseph sure got shafted.. How young was Mary ?

    A father being the father.. The being or entity loosely named as God. The Father, the Son and the Holly spook..

    It's no wonder some confusion is apparent.. The story is biblical bullshit.
    Some one should write the book. OH ~!
    Last edited by astromark; July 17th, 2013 at 09:24 PM. Reason: ~ ..
     

  62. #262  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvb View Post
    It seems to me that the existence of Jesus is rather likely simply given the extensive spread and the enthusiasm of his followers.
    Yup.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
     

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    I was an Atheist. My last words to some Christians? "There is no way in hell that you could prove to me that there is a God!" Within a few hours I found myself praying with another individual the Lord's prayer. I personally felt a release of a burden off of my shoulders. Did I know who Christ was? No. I had to drop all of my ideas about God, Jesus, Christ, Heaven and Hell and the Bible. I had no answers only questions. I began to read the Bible beginning in John and as I opened and read the first verse "the word was God". I presented a question several years back to this Science Forum of my personal experience. The short version is I had an OBE where I was spoken to in part this phrase, "keep my word". I only knew of one "word", the Bible. Several months later during a revival a man of whom I had never met spoke to me as God through him, in part again, "and as I told you before, keep my word". I have done so for over four decades now and it has dramatically changed my life for the better.

    Since my change from being an Atheist to believer I have read and studied most all of the books, articles relating to the non-existence of Jesus. Including the mythologies provided by those of a virgin birth by others. And my recent reading of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" Bart D. Ehrman. The early church fathers as well. My personal experience and life change in and through a study of the Bible has not been affected by these other studies. I have no scientific proof of Jesus, Christ or of God or of my OBE or of the revival experience. Yet those experiences are as real today as they were some four decades ago. What has been hidden through aeons of time is the mystery of God. I have found that to address this mystery can be found within the spirit of the letter and not in the letter itself. Literalists have only created more buildings made with hands, and God does not dwell there. Science cannot prove that God does or does not exist. It is not for me to prove, as a Christian, the existence using empirical evidences of Jesus, Christ or God. It has become for me a way of life and a more abundant life at that. At the end, some will discover either what I have said has some truth or will disregard it as some imagination on my part. The search begins within a person and not on the outward appearance.
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I was an Atheist. My last words to some Christians? "There is no way in hell that you could prove to me that there is a God!" Within a few hours I found myself praying with another individual the Lord's prayer. I personally felt a release of a burden off of my shoulders. Did I know who Christ was? No. I had to drop all of my ideas about God, Jesus, Christ, Heaven and Hell and the Bible. I had no answers only questions. I began to read the Bible beginning in John and as I opened and read the first verse "the word was God". I presented a question several years back to this Science Forum of my personal experience. The short version is I had an OBE where I was spoken to in part this phrase, "keep my word". I only knew of one "word", the Bible. Several months later during a revival a man of whom I had never met spoke to me as God through him, in part again, "and as I told you before, keep my word". I have done so for over four decades now and it has dramatically changed my life for the better.

    Since my change from being an Atheist to believer I have read and studied most all of the books, articles relating to the non-existence of Jesus. Including the mythologies provided by those of a virgin birth by others. And my recent reading of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" Bart D. Ehrman. The early church fathers as well. My personal experience and life change in and through a study of the Bible has not been affected by these other studies. I have no scientific proof of Jesus, Christ or of God or of my OBE or of the revival experience. Yet those experiences are as real today as they were some four decades ago. What has been hidden through aeons of time is the mystery of God. I have found that to address this mystery can be found within the spirit of the letter and not in the letter itself. Literalists have only created more buildings made with hands, and God does not dwell there. Science cannot prove that God does or does not exist. It is not for me to prove, as a Christian, the existence using empirical evidences of Jesus, Christ or God. It has become for me a way of life and a more abundant life at that. At the end, some will discover either what I have said has some truth or will disregard it as some imagination on my part. The search begins within a person and not on the outward appearance.
    David Berkowitz knew his dog spoke to him. He knew that his dog was possessed by a demon.

    Your personal feelings does not provide any evidence which can be rigorously examined, thus no benefit to this thread.
     

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    Rdlb: Could you perhaps actually read the thread, and when you come back, be honest this time. Thanks!
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I was an Atheist. My last words to some Christians? "There is no way in hell that you could prove to me that there is a God!" Within a few hours I found myself praying with another individual the Lord's prayer. I personally felt a release of a burden off of my shoulders. Did I know who Christ was? No. I had to drop all of my ideas about God, Jesus, Christ, Heaven and Hell and the Bible. I had no answers only questions. I began to read the Bible beginning in John and as I opened and read the first verse "the word was God". I presented a question several years back to this Science Forum of my personal experience. The short version is I had an OBE where I was spoken to in part this phrase, "keep my word". I only knew of one "word", the Bible. Several months later during a revival a man of whom I had never met spoke to me as God through him, in part again, "and as I told you before, keep my word". I have done so for over four decades now and it has dramatically changed my life for the better.

    Since my change from being an Atheist to believer I have read and studied most all of the books, articles relating to the non-existence of Jesus. Including the mythologies provided by those of a virgin birth by others. And my recent reading of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" Bart D. Ehrman. The early church fathers as well. My personal experience and life change in and through a study of the Bible has not been affected by these other studies. I have no scientific proof of Jesus, Christ or of God or of my OBE or of the revival experience. Yet those experiences are as real today as they were some four decades ago. What has been hidden through aeons of time is the mystery of God. I have found that to address this mystery can be found within the spirit of the letter and not in the letter itself. Literalists have only created more buildings made with hands, and God does not dwell there. Science cannot prove that God does or does not exist. It is not for me to prove, as a Christian, the existence using empirical evidences of Jesus, Christ or God. It has become for me a way of life and a more abundant life at that. At the end, some will discover either what I have said has some truth or will disregard it as some imagination on my part. The search begins within a person and not on the outward appearance.
    This is the same reason AA says to "turn your problems over to a higher power". The psychological effect of believing a more powerful being is helping you is significant, but it doesn't prove the existence of that being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I was an Atheist. My last words to some Christians? "There is no way in hell that you could prove to me that there is a God!" Within a few hours I found myself praying with another individual the Lord's prayer. I personally felt a release of a burden off of my shoulders. Did I know who Christ was? No. I had to drop all of my ideas about God, Jesus, Christ, Heaven and Hell and the Bible. I had no answers only questions. I began to read the Bible beginning in John and as I opened and read the first verse "the word was God". I presented a question several years back to this Science Forum of my personal experience. The short version is I had an OBE where I was spoken to in part this phrase, "keep my word". I only knew of one "word", the Bible. Several months later during a revival a man of whom I had never met spoke to me as God through him, in part again, "and as I told you before, keep my word". I have done so for over four decades now and it has dramatically changed my life for the better.

    Since my change from being an Atheist to believer I have read and studied most all of the books, articles relating to the non-existence of Jesus. Including the mythologies provided by those of a virgin birth by others. And my recent reading of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" Bart D. Ehrman. The early church fathers as well. My personal experience and life change in and through a study of the Bible has not been affected by these other studies. I have no scientific proof of Jesus, Christ or of God or of my OBE or of the revival experience. Yet those experiences are as real today as they were some four decades ago. What has been hidden through aeons of time is the mystery of God. I have found that to address this mystery can be found within the spirit of the letter and not in the letter itself. Literalists have only created more buildings made with hands, and God does not dwell there. Science cannot prove that God does or does not exist. It is not for me to prove, as a Christian, the existence using empirical evidences of Jesus, Christ or God. It has become for me a way of life and a more abundant life at that. At the end, some will discover either what I have said has some truth or will disregard it as some imagination on my part. The search begins within a person and not on the outward appearance.
    David Berkowitz knew his dog spoke to him. He knew that his dog was possessed by a demon.

    Your personal feelings does not provide any evidence which can be rigorously examined, thus no benefit to this thread.
    I realize that.
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I was an Atheist. My last words to some Christians? "There is no way in hell that you could prove to me that there is a God!" Within a few hours I found myself praying with another individual the Lord's prayer. I personally felt a release of a burden off of my shoulders. Did I know who Christ was? No. I had to drop all of my ideas about God, Jesus, Christ, Heaven and Hell and the Bible. I had no answers only questions. I began to read the Bible beginning in John and as I opened and read the first verse "the word was God". I presented a question several years back to this Science Forum of my personal experience. The short version is I had an OBE where I was spoken to in part this phrase, "keep my word". I only knew of one "word", the Bible. Several months later during a revival a man of whom I had never met spoke to me as God through him, in part again, "and as I told you before, keep my word". I have done so for over four decades now and it has dramatically changed my life for the better.

    Since my change from being an Atheist to believer I have read and studied most all of the books, articles relating to the non-existence of Jesus. Including the mythologies provided by those of a virgin birth by others. And my recent reading of "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" Bart D. Ehrman. The early church fathers as well. My personal experience and life change in and through a study of the Bible has not been affected by these other studies. I have no scientific proof of Jesus, Christ or of God or of my OBE or of the revival experience. Yet those experiences are as real today as they were some four decades ago. What has been hidden through aeons of time is the mystery of God. I have found that to address this mystery can be found within the spirit of the letter and not in the letter itself. Literalists have only created more buildings made with hands, and God does not dwell there. Science cannot prove that God does or does not exist. It is not for me to prove, as a Christian, the existence using empirical evidences of Jesus, Christ or God. It has become for me a way of life and a more abundant life at that. At the end, some will discover either what I have said has some truth or will disregard it as some imagination on my part. The search begins within a person and not on the outward appearance.
    This is the same reason AA says to "turn your problems over to a higher power". The psychological effect of believing a more powerful being is helping you is significant, but it doesn't prove the existence of that being.
    And as I indicated it is not for me to prove the existence using empirical evidences of Jesu, Christ or God..
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Rdlb: Could you perhaps actually read the thread, and when you come back, be honest this time. Thanks!
    I read the entire thread from the beginning to the end. I am honest with myself and with others.
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Rdlb: Could you perhaps actually read the thread, and when you come back, be honest this time. Thanks!
    I read the entire thread from the beginning to the end. I am honest with myself and with others.
    Then why are you being dishonest again here. If you had read the thread. You would have read posts 212, 225, 232, 242, 253, and noticed that it is impossible for an atheist to go from rational to irrational so you could not have been an atheist nor got talked into being a theist from a position of atheism, it just isn't possible. The only way that could happen would be because of a major traumatic event. like a blow to the head, or drink or drug addiction. Which you did not mention. If you had then I would not have ask you to be honest, so do try it it's enriching and gets you respect.
    Last edited by pavlos; September 24th, 2013 at 10:41 AM. Reason: misspelling
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    One of the questions that popped in my mind after I read the O.P,
    is what the implications are if it is demonstrated (beyond reasonable doubt) that Jesus Christ (as mentioned in the Bible) existed?

    Given the fact that one does not need nor has to accept (lack of) evidences in order to maintain one's faith, would the existence of Jesus really affect anyone?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    would the existence of Jesus really affect anyone?
    Yes most certainly. If a superhuman, water walking, animal talking, tree cursing, magic man existed, as the bible claimed. The whole universe would be thrown out of wack. As it would defy the laws of physics.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Then why are you being dishonest again here.
    Please don't call other members liars. That is not appropriate forum etiquette.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    would the existence of Jesus really affect anyone?
    Yes most certainly. If a superhuman, water walking, animal talking, tree cursing, magic man existed, as the bible claimed. The whole universe would be thrown out of wack. As it would defy the laws of physics.

    I was thinking about the historical figure, rather than the properties that were attributed to him by other people.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    would the existence of Jesus really affect anyone?
    Yes most certainly. If a superhuman, water walking, animal talking, tree cursing, magic man existed, as the bible claimed. The whole universe would be thrown out of wack. As it would defy the laws of physics.

    I was thinking about the historical figure, rather than the properties that were attributed to him by other people.
    I suspect that the fundamentalists would still hold the belief, but you would lose the moderates/liberals followers of that religion. Like many other past religions for which there is little to no followers, Christianity would most likely be deemed (by consensus) as a mythology in the same manner as ancient Sumerian, Greek, Egyptian, and Roman religions are viewed presently.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Then why are you being dishonest again here.
    Please don't call other members liars. That is not appropriate forum etiquette.
    Ok if it offends you. However I never saw it in the forum rules.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Then why are you being dishonest again here.
    Please don't call other members liars. That is not appropriate forum etiquette.
    Ok if it offends you. However I never saw it in the forum rules.

    I think it is member Harold14370's opinion, rather than a reference to the Forum Guidelines (I checked it and it seems that you have not violated a rule).
    Perhaps it is an unwritten rule, a principle that is frowned upon by some members, such as the act of necroposting.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Then why are you being dishonest again here.
    Please don't call other members liars. That is not appropriate forum etiquette.
    Ok if it offends you. However I never saw it in the forum rules.

    I think it is member Harold14370's opinion, rather than a reference to the Forum Guidelines (I checked it and it seems that you have not violated a rule).
    Perhaps it is an unwritten rule, a principle that is frowned upon by some members, such as the act of necroposting.
    It is just common courtesy. I shouldn't even have to point it out.
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    With 100% honesty and with zero intention to offend I have a view of this subject and a want to share it.
    At no point would I expect the abandonment of any or all of a religiously held doctrine. Not my attention or goal.
    From the historical record of history written and found as true can we be clear that a 'Jesus of Nazareth' lived.
    That as a ATHEIST I can clearly state that a good argument is found for the reality of this mans life story.
    Walking talking and with a small loyal group of disciples and followers. I find no argument with.
    Only when the discussion turns to supposed miracles and events that slip outside of what I hold as real and possible..
    I reject such miracles as just exaggerated mythology.. and no proof of reality can be found as true..
    That these findings as I find them are my view, be clear.. and that much wisdom is credited to some that is unproven is a truth of ignorance and miss education. We can fix this.. but we must first want to.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    With 100% honesty and with zero intention to offend I have a view of this subject and a want to share it.
    At no point would I expect the abandonment of any or all of a religiously held doctrine. Not my attention or goal.
    From the historical record of history written and found as true can we be clear that a 'Jesus of Nazareth' lived.
    Just which historical record are you referring to? What is document that has been attested by historical scholars that a Jesus of Nazareth existed?
     

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    Jesus was a popular name in the Middle East about 2000 years ago, some random guy could have been called Jesus and would have been as real a person as Euclid, Abraham Lincoln, or Queen Elizabeth the First. That doesn't mean any of them had magical powers or was in any way divine.
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    We could probably have the same debate about Robin Hood and his Merry Men. It could be that such a person actually existed, but add a couple of decades of hearsay, and you’ll have a very different, or at the least, a very blemished account of the facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pineapples View Post
    We could probably have the same debate about Robin Hood and his Merry Men. It could be that such a person actually existed, but add a couple of decades of hearsay, and you’ll have a very different, or at the least, a very blemished account of the facts.
    Just like Santa Clause, Saint Nicholas, Kris Kringle, Father Christmas...
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    With 100% honesty and with zero intention to offend I have a view of this subject and a want to share it.
    At no point would I expect the abandonment of any or all of a religiously held doctrine. Not my attention or goal.
    From the historical record of history written and found as true can we be clear that a 'Jesus of Nazareth' lived.
    Just which historical record are you referring to? What is document that has been attested by historical scholars that a Jesus of Nazareth existed?
    ~ So I do not answer your question. Because I can not., but I am supported by the weight of opinion that 'a' JC was real enough..
    Which JC or was there a few of them ? and where in a middle eastern country do you find a Mathew, Mark, Luke and John ?
    ~ None, not one of those questions do I have answers for. That I have little motivation to argue the case of was there a entity that was said to be represented as the Son of God.. is not the same thing as saying there was a Jesus and he was of Nazareth..
    I have said I am of atheist view unbending. Yet I can imagine that all of the legend might well have had a base of 'SOME' reality.
    Yet to be sure it does not make all of what he is credited with is as true.. ' I once watched a man walk across the Thames River '
    London. Yet of I fail to inform you that it was frozen over is the real issue.. Step back from the question..
    Look at what we know.. do you really think this chap( JC ) was a complete work of fiction ? Just as St Nick did have a truth a little obscure does not make it untrue at some level. So can I show you why or where, no..
    ~ Does this make me a faithless hypocrite.. Yes I'm OK with this... That these and this is my view, I said. I do not ask you to buy it.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    and where in a middle eastern country do you find a Mathew, Mark, Luke and John ?
    Everywhere.

    That's where "Christian" names come from, the Middle East circa year 0.

    Mary, Joseph, the names of the Apostles and the names of the Patron Saints are all names from that region and that time period.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrMojo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    With 100% honesty and with zero intention to offend I have a view of this subject and a want to share it.
    At no point would I expect the abandonment of any or all of a religiously held doctrine. Not my attention or goal.
    From the historical record of history written and found as true can we be clear that a 'Jesus of Nazareth' lived.
    Just which historical record are you referring to? What is document that has been attested by historical scholars that a Jesus of Nazareth existed?
    ~ So I do not answer your question. Because I can not., but I am supported by the weight of opinion that 'a' JC was real enough..
    Which JC or was there a few of them ? and where in a middle eastern country do you find a Mathew, Mark, Luke and John ?
    ~ None, not one of those questions do I have answers for. That I have little motivation to argue the case of was there a entity that was said to be represented as the Son of God.. is not the same thing as saying there was a Jesus and he was of Nazareth..
    I have said I am of atheist view unbending. Yet I can imagine that all of the legend might well have had a base of 'SOME' reality.
    Yet to be sure it does not make all of what he is credited with is as true.. ' I once watched a man walk across the Thames River '
    London. Yet of I fail to inform you that it was frozen over is the real issue.. Step back from the question..
    Look at what we know.. do you really think this chap( JC ) was a complete work of fiction ? Just as St Nick did have a truth a little obscure does not make it untrue at some level. So can I show you why or where, no..
    ~ Does this make me a faithless hypocrite.. Yes I'm OK with this... That these and this is my view, I said. I do not ask you to buy it.
    What you have put forth is an argumentum ad populum, lack of evidence be damned. It is quite likely that JC was a mythical character that became legend. In becoming legend, followers filled-in the blanks, but they were not consistent(e.g. The Gospels contradict each other in many areas). The earlier epistles of the NT, rarely even mention that the messiah/JC was a man.

    In the graveyards of dead religions (mythology) are other deities and messiahs that also popular at one time. It doesn't have any bearing that those characters were ever existed in reality.
    Last edited by MrMojo1; September 26th, 2013 at 12:54 AM. Reason: spelling
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    ~ So you return to the question; Was he real ? and that I agree 100% He probably was not.
    If that could be found as true life would become interesting for you..
    A very large group of followers would not be easy to dis-way from their religiously held beliefs..
    For they have what you ( and I ) lac. Faith. Faith is not truth based..
    It does not require proofs It is the unquestioning belief of things I describe as unscientific..
    Some people see and find great solace in their religious doctrines.. I can see some good in that..
    I do become concerned when talking of 'Astronomy' and was recently abrupt with a obviously indoctrinated man who insisted that the sun does cross the sky.. as it orbits the Earth.. sigh.. After I drew a simple diagram on the Observatories white Board his daughter told him he was a dingbat.. and fortunately he saw that as funny.. and they've been back..

    The point I have not made well is this.. Some of us demand a scientific approach. Religions do not stand the scrutiny of scientific review well.. I have studied as some very near to me did go down that indoctrinated religious view road, and I wanted to see what I am missing.. I instead did find what I call my truth. God and Gods are a human construct to support false belief structures.. I have no need for such.. no want for such and can not understand why some except untrue as true..
    Last edited by astromark; September 27th, 2013 at 01:22 AM.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Rdlb: Could you perhaps actually read the thread, and when you come back, be honest this time. Thanks!
    I read the entire thread from the beginning to the end. I am honest with myself and with others.
    Then why are you being dishonest again here. If you had read the thread. You would have read posts 212, 225, 232, 242, 253, and noticed that it is impossible for an atheist to go from rational to irrational so you could not have been an atheist nor got talked into being a theist from a position of atheism, it just isn't possible. The only way that could happen would be because of a major traumatic event. like a blow to the head, or drink or drug addiction. Which you did not mention. If you had then I would not have ask you to be honest, so do try it it's enriching and gets you respect.
    So going from Atheist to Theist equals going from rational to irrational? I had "no" major traumatic event. I did not believe in any god or God. My comment "There is no way in Hell that you could prove to me there is a God", to a group of Christians was a response to them to join their Bible study. I believed then that the Bible was the work of men's hands and contained contradictory myths, legends and descriptions of supposed historical events impossible to have happened.

    My epiphany to the existence of God first came to me with the question I asked myself one day, "There can't be a God, can there?" I spent hours with this question running through my mind. I eventually found a desire overwhelm me to find someone to pray with. After praying with one from a AA group, (I did not trust any other individuals), I felt a relief inside like a burden had been lifted. I did not accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour as I did not know who he was. I only remembered from my youth John 1:1. With that start I began to study on my own the Bible beginning with the book of John. I spent several years going from church group to church group trying to find one that would agree with what I had discovered within the Bible. It was frustrating until one night while lying in bed praying about it. I found myself standing up and out of my body. A voice said to me, "Keep My Word". I did not want to go back to my body, yet as I began thinking that I was needed back there, I found myself lying down still in bed. I rolled up on my side to wake my 8 month pregnant wife up to tell her what had just happened. She was sitting up and rubbing her arms, the hair standing up on them and saying that there was a strong presence in the room. Several months later we attended a small group who had similar beliefs and was what I would refer to as a conservative Pentecostal church. A revival meeting had a man from out of state of whom I had never met. At the last day of the revival he asked to lay hands on me and pray for me. He spoke in "tongues" and then in English, "and as I told you before, Keep My Word". I was shaking like Jello over my entire body from the strong presence of God. My wife and I never told of my OBE as we were embarrassed and thought others would think us crazy. How did this man know?

    In Jan 2010 no acceptable answer was given by anyone on this site.

    Evidence for Christ? It comes from within and not on the outward appearance from things material. Gnosis, a feminine Greek noun, which means "knowledge". It is often used for personal knowledge compared with intellectual knowledge. Wikipedia
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I spent hours with this question running through my mind. I eventually found a desire overwhelm me to find someone to pray with.
    Why would a self-declared atheist (if he actually is an atheist) feel the need to pray at all, let alone with someone?

    It was frustrating until one night while lying in bed praying about it. I found myself standing up and out of my body.
    In other words you had a dream/ hallucination.
    And decided, for some reason, to accept it at face value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    So going from Atheist to Theist equals going from rational to irrational?
    Most definitely. Believing in something that cant be proven is the essence of irrationality, you essentially are saying you believe in magic. Even the term faith means believing in something based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
    No rational person moves from objective reality too subjective reality it just isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I had "no" major traumatic event.
    I'm sorry that is not possible, you're asking us to suspend believe. If we accept your statement we may as well believe jesus did miracles and walked on water. Things that defy physics. Which are to foolish to even contemplate.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I did not believe in any god or God.
    If that were true then you would still not believe in god/gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    My comment "There is no way in Hell that you could prove to me there is a God", to a group of Christians was a response to them to join their Bible study. I believed then that the Bible was the work of men's hands and contained contradictory myths, legends and descriptions of supposed historical events impossible to have happened.
    Clearly not so, as you would still not accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    My epiphany to the existence of God first came to me with the question I asked myself one day, "There can't be a God, can there?"
    If you were an atheist as you say this is not something you would be asking yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I spent hours with this question running through my mind. I eventually found a desire overwhelm me to find someone to pray with. After praying with one from a AA group, (I did not trust any other individuals), I felt a relief inside like a burden had been lifted.
    So you had a major trauma, or you were an alcoholic.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I did not accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour as I did not know who he was. I only remembered from my youth John 1:1. With that start I began to study on my own the Bible beginning with the book of John. I spent several years going from church group to church group trying to find one that would agree with what I had discovered within the Bible. It was frustrating until one night while lying in bed praying about it. I found myself standing up and out of my body. A voice said to me, "Keep My Word". I did not want to go back to my body, yet as I began thinking that I was needed back there, I found myself lying down still in bed. I rolled up on my side to wake my 8 month pregnant wife up to tell her what had just happened.
    You had being searching for a sign for years and you had an hallucination, and you say you were an atheist. Think again.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    She was sitting up and rubbing her arms, the hair standing up on them and saying that there was a strong presence in the room.
    So coincidently you both had bad dreams and woke up at the same time or due to fidgeting woke each other up.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Several months later we attended a small group who had similar beliefs and was what I would refer to as a conservative Pentecostal church. A revival meeting had a man from out of state of whom I had never met. At the last day of the revival he asked to lay hands on me and pray for me. He spoke in "tongues" and then in English, "and as I told you before, Keep My Word". I was shaking like Jello over my entire body from the strong presence of God. My wife and I never told of my OBE as we were embarrassed and thought others would think us crazy. How did this man know?
    So he spoke in tongues, lol. I.E. Gibberish and you interpret that as him actually knowing about your dream/hallucination. Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    In Jan 2010 no acceptable answer was given by anyone on this site.
    If it does not fall into you own personal SPAG it will never be acceptable. My emphasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Evidence for Christ? It comes from within and not on the outward appearance from things material. Gnosis, a feminine Greek noun, which means "knowledge". It is often used for personal knowledge compared with intellectual knowledge. Wikipedia
    Yes it comes from the subjective, the imagination, it is only personal knowledge as it can never be anything else.

    So you consider yourself an honest, sincere person with no need to dissemble, I think you're being perfidious, and you're equivocating the facts. I.E. being mendacious.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

  91. #291  
    Forum Masters Degree MrMojo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Evidence for Christ? It comes from within and not on the outward appearance from things material. Gnosis, a feminine Greek noun, which means "knowledge". It is often used for personal knowledge compared with intellectual knowledge. Wikipedia...
    It seems you that you talking about metaphysics about your god based on a subjective experience. This thread is about discussing Evidence for Jesus Christ. This is off-topic and I suggest you open a new thread in the philosophy section.
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    So going from Atheist to Theist equals going from rational to irrational?
    Most definitely. Believing in something that cant be proven is the essence of irrationality, you essentially are saying you believe in magic. Even the term faith means believing in something based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
    No rational person moves from objective reality too subjective reality it just isn't possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I had "no" major traumatic event.
    I'm sorry that is not possible, you're asking us to suspend believe. If we accept your statement we may as well believe jesus did miracles and walked on water. Things that defy physics. Which are to foolish to even contemplate.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I did not believe in any god or God.
    If that were true then you would still not believe in god/gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    My comment "There is no way in Hell that you could prove to me there is a God", to a group of Christians was a response to them to join their Bible study. I believed then that the Bible was the work of men's hands and contained contradictory myths, legends and descriptions of supposed historical events impossible to have happened.
    Clearly not so, as you would still not accept it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    My epiphany to the existence of God first came to me with the question I asked myself one day, "There can't be a God, can there?"
    If you were an atheist as you say this is not something you would be asking yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I spent hours with this question running through my mind. I eventually found a desire overwhelm me to find someone to pray with. After praying with one from a AA group, (I did not trust any other individuals), I felt a relief inside like a burden had been lifted.
    So you had a major trauma, or you were an alcoholic.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    I did not accept Jesus Christ as my personal saviour as I did not know who he was. I only remembered from my youth John 1:1. With that start I began to study on my own the Bible beginning with the book of John. I spent several years going from church group to church group trying to find one that would agree with what I had discovered within the Bible. It was frustrating until one night while lying in bed praying about it. I found myself standing up and out of my body. A voice said to me, "Keep My Word". I did not want to go back to my body, yet as I began thinking that I was needed back there, I found myself lying down still in bed. I rolled up on my side to wake my 8 month pregnant wife up to tell her what had just happened.
    You had being searching for a sign for years and you had an hallucination, and you say you were an atheist. Think again.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    She was sitting up and rubbing her arms, the hair standing up on them and saying that there was a strong presence in the room.
    So coincidently you both had bad dreams and woke up at the same time or due to fidgeting woke each other up.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Several months later we attended a small group who had similar beliefs and was what I would refer to as a conservative Pentecostal church. A revival meeting had a man from out of state of whom I had never met. At the last day of the revival he asked to lay hands on me and pray for me. He spoke in "tongues" and then in English, "and as I told you before, Keep My Word". I was shaking like Jello over my entire body from the strong presence of God. My wife and I never told of my OBE as we were embarrassed and thought others would think us crazy. How did this man know?
    So he spoke in tongues, lol. I.E. Gibberish and you interpret that as him actually knowing about your dream/hallucination. Wow!

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    In Jan 2010 no acceptable answer was given by anyone on this site.
    If it does not fall into you own personal SPAG it will never be acceptable. My emphasis.

    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Evidence for Christ? It comes from within and not on the outward appearance from things material. Gnosis, a feminine Greek noun, which means "knowledge". It is often used for personal knowledge compared with intellectual knowledge. Wikipedia
    Yes it comes from the subjective, the imagination, it is only personal knowledge as it can never be anything else.

    So you consider yourself an honest, sincere person with no need to dissemble, I think you're being perfidious, and you're equivocating the facts. I.E. being mendacious.
    Disingenuous and ambiguous are traits for others.
    I shall pass this way but once; any good, therefore, that I can do or any kindness that I can show to any human being, let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.
     

  93. #293  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rdlb View Post
    Disingenuous and ambiguous are traits for others.
    Yet you seem to love them.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

  94. #294  
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    While resting on my couch I re read this whole thread.. and find some of the contributions excellent..
    After some careful considerations of both arguments to and fro... I can only conclude that some people have faulty wiring..
    That to accept as true such things as the biblical stories without question and with no proof of facts as written..
    I can not fathom or comprehend how a educated person of scientific knowledge could possibly accept it as true..
    I do not find magic, miracles, and myth as true representations of history.

    ~ GOD ~ Grand Old Delusion. ~
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    Sorry, my post is post 297, my computer has played up and has posted it three times
    Last edited by Britainnia007; October 17th, 2013 at 07:26 PM.
     

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    refer to post 295
    Last edited by Britainnia007; October 17th, 2013 at 07:27 PM.
     

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    I am somewhat bemused at the responses to rdlb's comment in many cases they have been rude and inconsiderate, back to the topic that was on before I left this thread awhile back.
    I was hardly going to tell you my personal experiences, you might laugh at this but I go by the evidence through my experiences as well as the bible, belief in something does not just come from documentation alone or from disillusionment of a traumatic event as you put it Ah but it does. It most certainly can't come from reason. So what other alternatives are there. Personal religious experiences as you call them are purely subjective so no good as evidence. So we can say with pure clarity that nothing reasonable convinced you, can't we.
    Of course religious experiences are evidence, they are subjective to a person however if you get multiple people having experiences by default you REASON that there is something else at work behind them, i.e. an over-arcing reason behind such experiences, in many cases such as my own and others there is no apparent event that caused such a change
    Actually I think you'll find it does, My bad, the TF does but Josephus never did. Josephus was a Jew, nowhere does anybody say or even suggest he was a Christian. He was working under the Romans so he would have never stated that Jesus was the messiah, as that would have been treasonable. He lived pretty close to the time alleged of Jesus, so he would not have put "to this day" at the end of the passage. That would indicate it was written centuries after, considering that most of the Christian movements disbanded. Shortly after Jesus death according to Acts 5: 35-39 Josephus devotes more time to writing about John the baptist than he does of Jesus, either John is more important or Jesus was and is a an interpolation. And apart from all that, when Josephus writes his antiquities of the Jews and he mentions the same time period in parallel passages, he writes nothing about Jesus, John or James. Not even the tiniest of references, is written. The TF in and by itself is an interpolation.
    I never said Josephus was a Christian, he most definitely was Jew and as you rightly put he would never have called him the messiah, he said if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus the so-called but not actually being the messiah, If he had never existed why even bother to mention him in the first place or even reference him to the title. Yes it is determined that certain words can be seen to put into Josephus' mouth figuratively however a simple Google search will show you that the wording I have referred to was not an interpolation. As for the huge list of scholars etc you gave me, give me one reason they would have to record Jesus? the list states that many of there works are actually lost, which is unsurprising for documentation of the region. Before you say that Jesus would have attracted a lot of attention etc, you have to take into account that Jesus's ministry didn't fully start until he was around 30, according the bible, and he was crucified in his early 30's combined with the tumultuous social climate in the region as well as the fact the roman empire was no stranger to a religious culture or leaders probably meant he was an annoyance at most and so not worthy of mention, until after he died
    the other sources are from the new testament funnily enough and rabbinic sources, you have to also consider that although under Roman rule, due to the social unrest of the Jewish people at the time against this rule, the romans countered it by giving the region almost self autonomy, a primitive form of devolution You will use any BS to try and prove your point, it is irrelevant whether they had self rule they where still a Roman province and subject to such.
    You obviously aren't a historian otherwise you would know this shifts things slightly out of the norm for the time period, it means that the romans, although In charge, would have left all of the administrative duties to the local authorities including record keeping etc as well as storage of such records i.e. in the centre of the capital of the region, which incidentally refers to what I mentioned earlier about the temple in Jerusalem
    well I've told you the truth, No you told me what you wanted me to believe, but no sir I'm not falling for such BS.
    This was in regards to telling me I used to be an atheist, I did used to be one, and argued against Christians often, whether you think it is BS or not is irrelevant, I have told you the truth and that's all I can do. Look I only came on to this thread prove Jesus existed, no more or less. In regards to the references to mythological creatures, they are irrelevant because belief in these things do not change lives so it is pointless to put them on the same level as a belief in Jesus In my opinion, I would have thought this obvious and infantile to do so.
     

  98. #298  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Ah but it does. It most certainly can't come from reason. So what other alternatives are there. Personal religious experiences as you call them are purely subjective so no good as evidence. So we can say with pure clarity that nothing reasonable convinced you, can't we.
    Of course religious experiences are evidence, they are subjective to a person however if you get multiple people having experiences by default you REASON that there is something else at work behind them, i.e. an over-arcing reason behind such experiences, in many cases such as my own and others there is no apparent event that caused such a change
    So by that reasoning alien abduction is true, flat earth belief is true, and why do hindus have religious experience of vishnu, and muslims have experience of mohammad. there must be something behind those also.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    My bad, the TF does but Josephus never did. Josephus was a Jew, nowhere does anybody say or even suggest he was a Christian. He was working under the Romans so he would have never stated that Jesus was the messiah, as that would have been treasonable. He lived pretty close to the time alleged of Jesus, so he would not have put "to this day" at the end of the passage. That would indicate it was written centuries after, considering that most of the Christian movements disbanded. Shortly after Jesus death according to Acts 5: 35-39 Josephus devotes more time to writing about John the baptist than he does of Jesus, either John is more important or Jesus was and is a an interpolation. And apart from all that, when Josephus writes his antiquities of the Jews and he mentions the same time period in parallel passages, he writes nothing about Jesus, John or James. Not even the tiniest of references, is written. The TF in and by itself is an interpolation.
    I never said Josephus was a Christian, he most definitely was Jew and as you rightly put he would never have called him the messiah, he said if I'm not mistaken, that Jesus the so-called but not actually being the messiah, If he had never existed why even bother to mention him in the first place or even reference him to the title.
    We don't know that he did as it was an interpolation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    You will use any BS to try and prove your point, it is irrelevant whether they had self rule they where still a Roman province and subject to such.
    You obviously aren't a historian otherwise you would know this shifts things slightly out of the norm for the time period, it means that the romans, although In charge, would have left all of the administrative duties to the local authorities including record keeping etc as well as storage of such records i.e. in the centre of the capital of the region, which incidentally refers to what I mentioned earlier about the temple in Jerusalem
    Yet all records were copied several times they didn't just have one copy. so are you saying that they all happened to burn, a bit of a stretch don't you think.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    No you told me what you wanted me to believe, but no sir I'm not falling for such BS.
    This was in regards to telling me I used to be an atheist, I did used to be one, and argued against Christians often, whether you think it is BS or not is irrelevant, I have told you the truth and that's all I can do. Look I only came on to this thread prove Jesus existed, no more or less.
    Well you failed. And if you were an atheist you would still be one. The only way you could or would be different now are for the very reasons I gave earlier in the thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    In regards to the references to mythological creatures, they are irrelevant because belief in these things do not change lives so it is pointless to put them on the same level as a belief in Jesus In my opinion, I would have thought this obvious and infantile to do so.
    And belief in them never took lives either.
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    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
     

  99. #299  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Britainnia007 View Post
    Of course religious experiences are evidence
    Quite possibly.
    But evidence of what?
    Delusion?
    A basic human psychological cause?
    Drugs?
    Aliens?
    CIA mind control?

    To take this "evidence" and ascribe it, (almost?) without question, to "god" is fallacious.
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    So everybody moved over here to attack the religiosity of Jesus when the actual topic seems to focus on the question of what in history and science supports the idea that there was a physical person in Palestine by the name of Jesus who existed and had a small Jewish ministry in the first century?

    I have read hardly any "scientifically" determined facts in this entire thread which either show or rebut that notion. It might first be wise to determine what kind of science would relate to the topic as well as what in history or science leads us to the acceptance of other figures who reportedly existed in ancient times?

    The main evidence of any person within a social group is that social group's literature. A secondary evidence could be if that person is mentioned in the literature of other social groups. (We are far more likely to find information about a Roman in Roman literature than in Greek literature.)

    So, what would we look for "scientifically" in inspecting a document purporting to represent that literature? There is a difference between scientifically investigating when was the document we have in front of us produced and when was the original produced. And there is yet another aspect of scientifically determining the potential veracity of the events recorded in the documents.

    We would want to know the actual age of the document or manuscript we are examining. When was the extant document actually produced as opposed to when was the original document produced? Other than ancient Egyptian writing etched in stone, there are no suspected "first edition" copies of any documents produced on any other medium. In this vein, we generally assume that the extent copies which are more closely related in time to the events they record are probably more reliable than those which were produced more distant in time from the events. Thus a document which we can date to have been produced within 200 years of the original and the events it records would be considered more reliable and more representative of the original document than one which was produced 1000 years after the original.

    Carbon dating, while not perfect, does give us some rather close dating of documents which were produced in the last couple of millennia. So that is some scientific basis to begin to judge the time proximity of an extant document or manuscript to the time of the events. The closer in time to the known date of the events allows us to assign more accuracy of the copy to the original.

    We would also know that the number of generations of copies would be far fewer between the original and copy produced within 200 years of an event. This is because documents exposed to air and use deteriorate at a reasonably constant rate. Thus we would have far more generations of copies documents in a document produced 1000 years after the events than those produced within 200 years of the event.

    Another aspect of scientifically inspecting ancient documents is an understanding of the period process of copying manuscripts. Those people did not have printing presses or copy machines. Every document from that period is a hand-copied replica of whatever was copied. Often, this was accomplished by one person reading the existing text to be copied to a group of scriveners. Sometimes, a person looked a the document to be copied and copied it to a second manuscript. It would also be helpful to know the reputation of the scriveners. Do Roman scriveners have a better reputation for document accuracy than Greeks?

    Hand copies are always subject to scrivener errors, for sure. It is highly unlikely that every scrivener would make the exact same error, so the copies made from all of their copies would not all contain the same error. If we have 10 copies of a document and 9 of them say A, while one says B, it is reasonable to assume that the original said A. A closer time-proximity between the original and the copy also reduces the potential for errors.

    Another factor is the number of extant copies to be inspected. If we have 100 copies of one document and 10 copies of another, we have a better comparison for the document with 100 copies. If we also determine the dates of the copies, we can find when discrepancies may have arisen. If we have a document which is dated to have been produced 200 years before another document and there are discrepancies, it is reasonable to assume the earlier document is probably more representative of the original.

    It is somewhat possible to determine the age of the original document by the language used in the document and the events included in the document. A document written in 1920 could not include information from WWII. If you were to read a document today which used the word "groovy," you could reasonably assume that it was not likely written before 1950 and probably not post 1980. Words and ways of using them come and go and those uses are reflected in the language of the day. If we have other literature which is attributed to a period, we can use the language to estimate the time of origin.

    I have seen very little discussion here (or in the other now closed thread) which actually touched on any these scientific aspects of the literature relating to the topic. Most of the discussion revolves around the reliability of the information in the documents rather than on the reliability of the documents themselves.

    A consistent complaint seems to be reflected in post 10:
    No contemporary reference to Jesus has ever been found.
    I have no idea what this means. It does not relate to document authenticity but rather the reliability of the information contained in the document. How do you get a contemporary reference to any historical character? Where do you find a contemporary mention of Julius Caesar. Where do you get a contemporary mention of Alexander the Great or Xerxes? How about contemporary references to Romulus and Remus, Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Spartacus? This seems to be a made up requirement which no ancient historical figure could possibly fulfill.

    Someone, and I am unable to find the post again, did mention the dates of documents, but it was impossible to determine whether the post was referring to extent documents or an estimate of the date of the original document.



    Investigating the accuracy of the information contained in a document is yet another study which has some scientific basis though investigation if other literature from the same period of time if it exists and covers the same events and whether it confirms, denies or ignores the events. These things can lead us to certain conclusions. Archeology sometimes confirms or rebuts literary claims.

    The funny things is, it is my experience in these discussions that it is the so called "science oriented" contributors who provide no scientific information to support their contentions.
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