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Thread: Disproving God's special creation

  1. #1 Disproving God's special creation 
    Forum Sophomore laza's Avatar
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    Monotheistic religions tell us that we are made in the image of god to rule all other animals, and that we are special and above everybody else, but doesn't the sequencing of the human genome disprove that. Knowledge that we share 98,5 % genes with chimpanzees basically tells us that we are not special at all, and the recognition that we are mammals is another piece of evidence for that, i would like to hear what do religious people have to say about this .


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    Sweeping all religious people under the one big broom I see ! You should direct that question to young earth creationists. They’ll thank you for the question


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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Monotheistic religions tell us
    Some monotheistic religions tell us...

    Knowledge that we share 98,5 % genes with chimpanzees basically tells us that we are not special at all, and the recognition that we are mammals is another piece of evidence for that, i would like to hear what do religious people have to say about this .
    I am not qualified to answer this question from the religious point of view, but it doesn't seem to hold much water as an argument.

    The fact that we are very different from other apes (speech, culture, music, technology) could (I assume) be used as evidence that we are in some way special. And I'm sure there are many people who think that (both religious and otherwise).
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    Forum Sophomore laza's Avatar
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    yes but that can be explained in that 1,5 % of difference in the genome, and that is all i am saying, all of our speech, culture, music, tehnology is in 1,5 % of difference between us and apes in the trees, we are not special at all, or if someone wants to call us special he can call us 1,5% special when compared to chimps.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    But the difference between chimps and humans seems disproportionate to a purely numerical 1.5% difference in genome. Even from a purely biological point of view, a statement like "1.5% different" is not terribly informative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes but that can be explained in that 1,5 % of difference in the genome, and that is all i am saying, all of our speech, culture, music, tehnology is in 1,5 % of difference between us and apes in the trees, we are not special at all, or if someone wants to call us special he can call us 1,5% special when compared to chimps.
    Chimps = graphite at 98.5% pressure needed to make a diamond.

    Beside that abstract point, here is a better one: 1.5% is a HUGE difference precisely because of the difference that we see it makes. We are special in our own way, but we have yet to see just how special. After all, we have only been here for a paltry 200k years. Other forms of life have been here for billions.
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    Forum Sophomore laza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes but that can be explained in that 1,5 % of difference in the genome, and that is all i am saying, all of our speech, culture, music, tehnology is in 1,5 % of difference between us and apes in the trees, we are not special at all, or if someone wants to call us special he can call us 1,5% special when compared to chimps.
    Chimps = graphite at 98.5% pressure needed to make a diamond.

    Beside that abstract point, here is a better one: 1.5% is a HUGE difference precisely because of the difference that we see it makes. We are special in our own way, but we have yet to see just how special. After all, we have only been here for a paltry 200k years. Other forms of life have been here for billions.
    not many life forms have been here for billions of years, and that 1,5 % difference is responsible for our superior intelligence, that made today's tehnology and so on, but that is all, we are a mammal and just one more animal, just as some animals have far superior sense of smell to other animals, we have far superior intelligence, that is all
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes but that can be explained in that 1,5 % of difference in the genome, and that is all i am saying, all of our speech, culture, music, tehnology is in 1,5 % of difference between us and apes in the trees, we are not special at all, or if someone wants to call us special he can call us 1,5% special when compared to chimps.
    Chimps = graphite at 98.5% pressure needed to make a diamond.

    Beside that abstract point, here is a better one: 1.5% is a HUGE difference precisely because of the difference that we see it makes. We are special in our own way, but we have yet to see just how special. After all, we have only been here for a paltry 200k years. Other forms of life have been here for billions.
    not many life forms have been here for billions of years, and that 1,5 % difference is responsible for our superior intelligence, that made today's tehnology and so on, but that is all, we are a mammal and just one more animal, just as some animals have far superior sense of smell to other animals, we have far superior intelligence, that is all
    Yes I agree, our intelligence puts us in a class of our own, while we are outmatched by other organisms in other areas. Still, our intelligence is unique to us.

    Point is, it is not that convincing of an argument. It wouldn't have swayed me back in my theist days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Monotheistic religions tell us that we are made in the image of god to rule all other animals, and that we are special and above everybody else, but doesn't the sequencing of the human genome disprove that. Knowledge that we share 98,5 % genes with chimpanzees basically tells us that we are not special at all, and the recognition that we are mammals is another piece of evidence for that, i would like to hear what do religious people have to say about this .
    I don't understand the logic of your statement.

    If anything the similarity would be evidence of similar origin, not a different one. In the view of the Abrahamic faiths, we are all God's creatures and of his design--why would it be surprising if similar patterns show up?
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    Forum Sophomore laza's Avatar
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    yeas but the evidence shows that we are not special, and abrahamic faiths don't see us as animals at all, humans are separated from animals.
    So when the evidence shows that we are basically 98,5% chimp, it shows that we are not created seperatly from other "kinds", not only that we are animals, but we share almost all of our genes with apes, that shows that a story about special creation of man is false
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    We are special. We are the only species on the planet who has the capacity to contemplate the world in a qualitatively different way. The numerical difference in genome may be small, but the conceptual level in capability is astronomical - literally. For we are able to explore and begin to understand the character of the universe. That is quite remarkable and objectively has to be considered more impressive than a hummingbird's flight or the intellect of an octopus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    We are special. We are the only species on the planet who has the capacity to contemplate the world in a qualitatively different way. The numerical difference in genome may be small, but the conceptual level in capability is astronomical - literally. For we are able to explore and begin to understand the character of the universe. That is quite remarkable and objectively has to be considered more impressive than a hummingbird's flight or the intellect of an octopus.
    yes, our intelligence is special, that's it...
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    For example, laza's avatar appears to show a baby chimp and a baby human playing together. Which is great, and shows how much we have in common.

    On the other hand, one of those will grow into an adult that would quite happily take the other's food without worrying if it is wrong, or if that means the other goes hungry.

    The other will (hopefully) grow up into an adult who will worry about their behaviour, think about the impact on others (including animals), engage in discussion with others about the morality of stealing people's food, etc. I can well understand why some people would look for an explanation for that outside the tiny 1.5% difference in genes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Monotheistic religions tell us ...
    Can you share with the rest of us a few other monotheistic religions that aren't of the abrahamic genre that "tells us..." such? You are aware that monotheism isn't synonymous with just the abrahamic faiths, and not all of them hold the view that humans are made in their preferred deity's image right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The other will (hopefully) grow up into an adult who will worry about their behaviour, think about the impact on others (including animals), engage in discussion with others about the morality of stealing people's food, etc. I can well understand why some people would look for an explanation for that outside the tiny 1.5% difference in genes.
    baby orangutan

    well they have no reason to look outside of those 1,5 % difference, it is our intelligence that gives us our understanding of right and wrong ( at least some of us have it ) or at least what we think that is right and wrong.I have uploaded videos of whales and tigers adopting babies of other species and taking care of them like they would take care of their own offspring, so humans are not alone in that also
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Monotheistic religions tell us ...
    Can you share with the rest of us a few other monotheistic religions that aren't of the abrahamic genre that "tells us..." such? You are aware that monotheism isn't synonymous with just the abrahamic faiths, and not all of them hold the view that humans are made in their preferred deity's image right?
    sorry, i meant abrahamic
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well they have no reason to look outside of those 1,5 % difference
    Apart, perhaps, from the fact that we are completely unable to explain what it is about that 1.5% that makes such a big difference...
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes, our intelligence is special, that's it...
    No, it is what the relatively small difference in intelligence has allowed us to leverage by way of achievements. That is qualitatively different.

    I seem to have done a third rate job of accurately conveying the sense and importance of the word qualitative in this context. It means radically new. Unique. Never seen before. Lifting things to previously unimagined heights. Frigging incredible. Qualitatively different and therefore special. (Dosen't alter the fact that we are aninals, but oh, what animals!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes, our intelligence is special, that's it...
    No, it is what the relatively small difference in intelligence has allowed us to leverage by way of achievements. That is qualitatively different.

    I seem to have done a third rate job of accurately conveying the sense and importance of the word qualitative in this context. It means radically new. Unique. Never seen before. Lifting things to previously unimagined heights. Frigging incredible. Qualitatively different and therefore special. (Dosen't alter the fact that we are aninals, but oh, what animals!)
    well yes, far more intelligent then any other animal on the planet, i never disputed that, in our past natural selection favored the most intelligent individuals and after a long time brain size increased drastically, just like we can admire a cheetah for running 75 mph, we have the brain that is remarkable, even though a lot of people think that it would be better if just stayed in the trees
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes, our intelligence is special, that's it...
    No, it is what the relatively small difference in intelligence has allowed us to leverage by way of achievements. That is qualitatively different.

    I seem to have done a third rate job of accurately conveying the sense and importance of the word qualitative in this context. It means radically new. Unique. Never seen before. Lifting things to previously unimagined heights. Frigging incredible. Qualitatively different and therefore special. (Dosen't alter the fact that we are aninals, but oh, what animals!)
    I cannot think of anything we do better "quantitatively" that animals do, nor unique. I just see monkey imitating ants, birds, dolphin, lion, and quite badly. The only thing is that we can do ALL that, but like awkward monkey that we are, and for whatever good that have bring on us, as a species...
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    yes, our intelligence is special, that's it...
    No, it is what the relatively small difference in intelligence has allowed us to leverage by way of achievements. That is qualitatively different.

    I seem to have done a third rate job of accurately conveying the sense and importance of the word qualitative in this context. It means radically new. Unique. Never seen before. Lifting things to previously unimagined heights. Frigging incredible. Qualitatively different and therefore special. (Dosen't alter the fact that we are aninals, but oh, what animals!)
    well yes, far more intelligent then any other animal on the planet, i never disputed that, in our past natural selection favored the most intelligent individuals and after a long time brain size increased drastically, just like we can admire a cheetah for running 75 mph, we have the brain that is remarkable, even though a lot of people think that it would be better if just stayed in the trees
    Did you even bother to read what I wrote? I did not say that we were "far more intelligent then any other animal on the planet" though you seem to think I did. I absolutely did not say that. I clearly said there was a " relatively small difference in intelligence".

    You are focused on this imagined large intelligence difference and I am telling you that the relatively small intelligence difference is not important. Clearly you still do not get it and I have exhausted such communication skills as I have in seeking to explain it to you. I recommend, if you wish to understand my point, that you reread my last post carefully, paying attention to what it says, and not what you expect it to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000
    I cannot think of anything we do better "quantitatively" that animals do, nor unique. I just see monkey imitating ants, birds, dolphin, lion, and quite badly. The only thing is that we can do ALL that, but like awkward monkey that we are, and for whatever good that have bring on us, as a species...
    You appear to have got it. You appear to understand that the quantitative things are not important, the difference is qualitative in the mechanism and the results. Are appearances deceptive?
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    well we dont have small difference in intelligence, he have for example something like 3 times as many neurons as the closest cousin from nature, how is that small difference ?
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    The small difference in DNA percentage is why at 98.5% DNA sharing apes and humans (same thing) look the same and why at lesser percentages we are more dissimilar. Cats and humans for instance share 90%, all of the methods used to calculate these sharing are different and some can make the similarities of DNA sharing greater or larger. It is generally accepted however that the less DNA shared with certain life forms the more dissimilar they appear. An example for this is what I just mentioned about cats, cats are mammals and mammals and humans share more DNA than say we do with reptiles, it wouldn't take a genius to figure this out though.

    What I don't understand is why you have used scientific knowledge as an attempt to provide evidence for a null-hypothesis. You said that:

    Monotheistic religions tell us that we are made in the image of god to rule all other animals
    Firstly not all do. Secondly even if they did it is not sciences position to find evidence to disprove a null hypothesis, usually it is a very bad idea to start using science to disprove supernatural claims, science simply stands indifferent on the subject and would say in return either:

    'That statement is illogical and highly ambiguous'
    'Evidence suggests this is an absurd non-rational claim'

    Its never a good idea to say it 'disproves' a claim. Supernatural claims by their nature are of the nature of a spectre; they aren't bound by rigid walls of rational and empirical observations (science) and can thusly move their position to wherever it pleases.
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well we dont have small difference in intelligence, he have for example something like 3 times as many neurons as the closest cousin from nature, how is that small difference ?
    still missing the point. You assert we are not special based upon what we are. I assert we are special based upon what we can do. I have acknowledged the first point by agreeing that we are 'just' animals. You seem to be avoiding even looking at the second point and so your view on it is invisible.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well we dont have small difference in intelligence, he have for example something like 3 times as many neurons as the closest cousin from nature, how is that small difference ?
    I'm afraid I have lost your point. You are arguing both that we are just animals and that we are special. Doesn't that then negate your point in the first post?
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    yes i know all that and i know that they will say that its metaphorical, and creationists are always saying that we actually dont share that many genes with other animals and for good reason, because it contradicts the creation myth in which we are above everything else and created separately from other animals...
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well we dont have small difference in intelligence, he have for example something like 3 times as many neurons as the closest cousin from nature, how is that small difference ?
    I'm afraid I have lost your point. You are arguing both that we are just animals and that we are special. Doesn't that then negate your point in the first post?
    im not saying that we are special, our intelligence is unique in nature, but that is all, a lot of animals have unique features
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well we dont have small difference in intelligence, he have for example something like 3 times as many neurons as the closest cousin from nature, how is that small difference ?
    I'm afraid I have lost your point. You are arguing both that we are just animals and that we are special. Doesn't that then negate your point in the first post?
    im not saying that we are special, our intelligence is unique in nature, but that is all, a lot of animals have unique features
    But they are all dumb brutes incapable of contemplating their own existence. That is pretty special.

    Sorry, just making the point that your argument is pretty weak. It would be too easy to argue for evolution as God's tool to make us.

    I held this belief for a while: Isn't it much more grand if god made the rules of the universe in such a way that we would result, than if he had just made us?
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    well when i think about it this argument goes mostly against creationists, that think that we were created seperate from other animals..
    But if you believe that god made evolution happen , do you think that we are the final product ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    well when i think about it this argument goes mostly against creationists, that think that we were created seperate from other animals..
    But if you believe that god made evolution happen , do you think that we are the final product ?
    I did believe that. I am an atheist now.

    Never really thought about it. I wouldn't have been against the idea of further evolution, but then again I did have a few unusual ideas (not strong beliefs though), like that the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics was true and that there existed a person in at least one of the different universes that had ample time to "take the test" for heaven, which changed into that everyone were given a chance to live a proper life and that everyone would go to "heaven" one day. Like, every stillborn baby or starving child in Africa exists somewhere in a universe where they had a sporting chance. That neatly took care of the problem of why there are so many that suffer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by laza View Post
    Monotheistic religions tell us that we are made in the image of god to rule all other animals, and that we are special and above everybody else, but doesn't the sequencing of the human genome disprove that. Knowledge that we share 98,5 % genes with chimpanzees basically tells us that we are not special at all, and the recognition that we are mammals is another piece of evidence for that, i would like to hear what do religious people have to say about this .
    i think this has been adressed but not directly..

    the authors of the bible were just trying to make God repsonsible for everything..
    then religious folllowers accepted that explination..
    then science came along and proved that God isn't responsible for everything.
    then religion got 'defensive' cause they thought science was trying to invalidate God..
    they weren't, they were just trying to explain why things work..
    so was religion..
    science has more objective evidence to discount Gods role in the cause of natural processes,
    (IMO this does not invalidate God but just how certain things work)

    my point is that the OP states that humans are special because the bible says so.

    humans aren't special because the bible says so..

    we are special because our friends and family tell us so.
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
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  33. #32  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I did have a few unusual ideas (not strong beliefs though), like that the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics was true and that there existed a person in at least one of the different universes that had ample time to "take the test" for heaven, which changed into that everyone were given a chance to live a proper life and that everyone would go to "heaven" one day. Like, every stillborn baby or starving child in Africa exists somewhere in a universe where they had a sporting chance. That neatly took care of the problem of why there are so many that suffer.
    I bet you could sell Ladas.
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