Thread: Some things just get real old real fast.

Does anyone else here get tired of seeing the same stories on the news day in and day out, especially during election season or after a major catastrophe? I know I do. The reason being that beating a dead horse is unproductive.

Lately, there has been a lot of insults flying in all directions for every side of the debate over whether or not a god exists.

Get this through all your thick skulls.... no one is going to change anyone's minds by browbeating them.

Both sides have their perspectives and it is their own experiences that led them to reach the conclusions they have. Nothing anyone says on this forum is going to change anyone's minds.

Honestly, who gives a flip why someone believes it to be immoral, unethical, or inappropriate (whatever word you use) to commit murder. As long as the majority of the people agree that it is something that is not welcome in society, does it really matter why?

Whether atheist, theist, or agnostic or whatever new word you want to invent to label yourself with, we all have belief systems, codes of ethics, self imposed rules for behavior, again pick a way to express it the definition is the same. We all believe that a particular way of life, (the one we live) is the best one. If you have ten different people who believe stealing is wrong, i bet you can get ten different reasons for why they believe it is wrong.

At the end of the day, do you care, does it matter to you, why your neighbor chose not to rape you dog? Or are you just glad they didn't? Can we stop bitching at each other over the "why" of everyone's life and just focus on actions, without the bigoted group definitions.

Instead of saying, when atheists bash theists, or when theists protests funerals.... how about, when assholes tell everyone else how to live. Because every grown up on this forum knows that assholes come in all shapes and sizes and they are all full of shit, no matter what they believe.

As annoying as Harold's style in posting in these threads is to me, he has a good point. Scientifically discussing religion is nearly impossible. It is too personal and it riles up the emotions. And whether you are atheist or not, religion can still be personal to you, because quite often religion, whether you follow one or not, has a major impact on your life. Try avoiding religion in Pakistan. You can't. And in parts of the USA, you can't. And whether we want to admit it or not, religion affects our government, our laws and our society as a whole.

So yes, discussing the affects of religion can be fair game though I bet it will be a hostile debate. But at least it would be somewhat relevant and useful. But trying to debate whether or not there is a god is stupid, redundant, and a waste of time because what difference does it make. People will do what they want to do and if you take a way god they will invent some other excuse to do what they want. it is human nature, some of us are just assholes. Get over it and stop blaming what doesn't deserve it. No one is an asshole because they do or do not believe in god. They are assholes because it is their nature to be one. From a psychological perspective belief IN GENERAL can be discussed but isolating religious believe or exempting it is not scientific is it. So a decision needs to be made. Allow it to be discussed freely without moderators bashing in the heads of atheists who discuss belief as a delusion, which is a scientific perspective whether you like it or not, and atheists stop treating theists as if they are all the same. or everyone needs to stfu and religion just be banned from the forum.

Whether I agree with someone's perspective on belief or not, i have to wonder why anyone would constantly create threads to discuss it. Why? Your decision has been made, do you need more confirmation? Is your faith or lack there of on shaky ground? Do you need a bunch of people to validate your position on the unknown? Why so damned obsessed? Does it make you feel good to create threads or derail threads in such a way that it gets everyone into a pissing contest and you hope that your team wins? Why don't we discuss the psychology of what causes obsession with conflict. Are we just that damned competitive? Do we need an arm wrestling sub forum.

Sorry had to get this off my chest. The atmosphere of the forum has been getting to me. it makes about as much sense as team vampire vs team werewolf. I have lost most of my motivation to participate in any forum or thread because it seems it is only a matter of time before someone pops up and carries their frustration from this forum towards another member into other subforums and completely ruins good threads.

If mods want to close this or delete it that is up to you. I won't be offended either way. Hell make it a sticky if ya like it. You can even print it and wipe you butt on it if you like. I don't really care but I had to get it off my chest.

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

That's just it, I don't really get upset when it happens in the religion threads. It's unavoidable there. But when the angst between members in those threads starts spilling over into other non associated threads, it gets tiresome. Everyone involved seems to be responding to each other in every other thread in uncharacteristically condescending and accusational tones, and they are all being overly sensitive to any and all criticism given by any member they disagreed with in the religion threads.

It just seems that objectivity has been put on pause and everyone just needs to get in a cage match and beat the crap out of each other so a winner can be declared and we can all move on.

I don't understand why people would rather tear apart the argument of others rather than build up their own argument. It's destructive, combative, and leads to personal attacks rather than rational discussion. When it comes to a topic like religion, it also feels like everyone thinks they are an expert and they refuse to budge or give way, preferring instead to belittle others with differing ideas.

I've met some people from forums and found that they behave vastly different in person than on the forums. I don't know if it is the lack of accountability on forums that brings out the worst in people or just that it's hard to properly communicate via text, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as I hope they do for me.

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

I don't understand why people would rather tear apart the argument of others rather than build up their own argument. It's destructive, combative, and leads to personal attacks rather than rational discussion. When it comes to a topic like religion, it also feels like everyone thinks they are an expert and they refuse to budge or give way, preferring instead to belittle others with differing ideas.

I've met some people from forums and found that they behave vastly different in person than on the forums. I don't know if it is the lack of accountability on forums that brings out the worst in people or just that it's hard to properly communicate via text, but I try to give people the benefit of the doubt as I hope they do for me.

It's something every single one of us is guilty of to varying degrees. It's part of being human. But another part of being human is the ability to evaluate our own faults from time to time. Something too few of us on this forum seem to do. We are all very quick to find fault in others but seem to lack the inclination to see the same faults in ourselves. This applies to myself as well.

Originally Posted by Flick Montana

I don't understand why people would rather tear apart the argument of others rather than build up their own argument.

Well, when it comes to religion (and the effect it has on society etc), the atheist "argument" is that we have no "argument" to build up - essentially we're saying "don't decide - and therefore don't dictate - until we have evidence".
IOW showing that the theist "argument" doesn't hold water, and is therefore invalid as a rationale for dictating - is the "whole point".

It helps to release pent up rage inside yourself through words and not deeds. Many rant and rave just to get it out of their systems so they can "feel better" that they have a way to release that frustration somewhere other than through physical violence. As was stated here already that many take on athletic events like boxing, weight lifting, martial arts to get some of that frustration out of them, which is another good way to do it.

But we all need to vent our frustrations somewhere and what better a place where you can't really hurt anyone but yourself. That's why through anonymity we can use tools like this forum to discuss things but can't get really hurt physically. That's why being in this type of place is good so that we don't hurt our friends or loved ones if we need to vent anger but release it here with others who can take it and give it back if need be.

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

Yeah, that gets old real fast, too. People not actually reading what others said, jumping to conclusions about what they said and then making accusations toward them based on it.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

Mods shouldn't settle "issues" but settle disputes betwen members who get out of hand with their comments or lies.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

I am sorry, but you are overreacting here. John said he practises it himself on certain topics. Why do you think he was being malicious? He didn't say "if you don't like it, leave", he said "if you know you won't be able to control yourself on a certain topic or a certain thread, rather not take part". Sound advice. Why read more into it?

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Yeah, that gets old real fast, too. People not actually reading what others said, jumping to conclusions about what they said and then making accusations toward them based on it.

Who are you talking about here?

Originally Posted by cosmictraveler

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

Mods shouldn't settle "issues" but settle disputes betwen members who get out of hand with their comments or lies.

When some of the mods and admins are willing participants in the disputes and bad behavior their lack objectivity prevents the unbiased settling of disputes. Other mods and admins, not involved in the shenanigans should step in and moderate the spill over into other threads and, if only behind the scenes, tell the guilty mods and admins, to stand down and avoid interacting with the other guilty members for a while.

I feel obligated.

It's a Science Forum, not a politically correct knuckle under forum.

The members have a duty to stand up for scientific knowledge, critical thinking, the scientific method and dispel myths, conspiracy theories and a lack of scientific reasoning.

Originally Posted by KALSTER

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Yeah, that gets old real fast, too. People not actually reading what others said, jumping to conclusions about what they said and then making accusations toward them based on it.

Who are you talking about here?

Well, considering that I've already told you- why bother asking?

If you have an opinion- spill it. Don't hold back.

Any of us can do it- I can do it, and probably have even done so. But some of us have made it an Olympic event.
I've spent too much time defending what wasn't said to carry on a proper debate in the appropriate threads.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to talk about the nature of science and religion, but anyone that does try to gets instantly treated like hateful troublemakers.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by KALSTER

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Yeah, that gets old real fast, too. People not actually reading what others said, jumping to conclusions about what they said and then making accusations toward them based on it.

Who are you talking about here?

Well, considering that I've already told you- why bother asking?

If you have an opinion- spill it. Don't hold back.

I still owe you a PM, I know. Just haven't gotten round to it yet.

I did voice my opinion in the first part of my post.

I've edited this post due to PM responses.
I spoke too soon, too rashly and retract this statement.

Normally, I would leave such things to stand- but since in this case, it deals with a post J.G. deleted, it's better to remove the content.

Originally Posted by KALSTER

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Originally Posted by John Galt

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

I am sorry, but you are overreacting here. John said he practises it himself on certain topics. Why do you think he was being malicious? He didn't say "if you don't like it, leave", he said "if you know you won't be able to control yourself on a certain topic or a certain thread, rather not take part". Sound advice. Why read more into it?

What one actually says, doesn't seem to matter any more on this forum. For instance, his post implied that I had no self control or that I felt I had no self control.And I found that to be quite insulting. I never said any such thing in the OP. So if I misinterpreted his post, perhaps its because his post expressed a clear misinterpretation of mine. And implying that I have lacked self control in the religion threads is absolutely absurd considering I barely participate in them at all once they go into us vs them status.

@seagypsy. Are you concerned about something, I ask myself. Well based on this portion of your OP it seems that you are.

Whether I agree with someone's perspective on belief or not, i have to wonder why anyone would constantly create threads to discuss it. Why? Your decision has been made, do you need more confirmation? Is your faith or lack there of on shaky ground? Do you need a bunch of people to validate your position on the unknown? Why so damned obsessed? Does it make you feel good to create threads or derail threads in such a way that it gets everyone into a pissing contest and you hope that your team wins? Why don't we discuss the psychology of what causes obsession with conflict. Are we just that damned competitive? Do we need an arm wrestling sub forum.

Sorry had to get this off my chest. The atmosphere of the forum has been getting to me. it makes about as much sense as team vampire vs team werewolf. I have lost most of my motivation to participate in any forum or thread because it seems it is only a matter of time before someone pops up and carries their frustration from this forum towards another member into other subforums and completely ruins good threads

I've emphasised one of your sentences as it seemed important enough to you to repeat again in your final paragraph. It certainly seemed to me as if you were upset. I've just re-read your OP and I am still left with that impression - that you were upset and upset enough that you had to get your thoughts on the issue "off your chest".

I told you I had similar concerns. I explained, as an example, there was one thread whose contents made me so upset I was aware that I would likely become enraged if I were to take the risk of reading its contents. I told you how I dealt with that. I controlled my exposure to the upsetting topic by avoiding it. That's self control. I recommended this same behaviour to you. As a reminder, here is what I said.

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Now I become really confused, since you post two responses to my post, separated by approximately two hours and by a world in terms of tenor.

That's just it, I don't really get upset when it happens in the religion threads. It's unavoidable there. But when the angst between members in those threads starts spilling over into other non associated threads, it gets tiresome. Everyone involved seems to be responding to each other in every other thread in uncharacteristically condescending and accusational tones, and they are all being overly sensitive to any and all criticism given by any member they disagreed with in the religion threads.

It just seems that objectivity has been put on pause and everyone just needs to get in a cage match and beat the crap out of each other so a winner can be declared and we can all move on.

That was your first repsonse. It elicited two likes from Kalster and Flick Montana. I considered responding, since I feel that I do not carry issues between threads. Indeed, one of my weaknesses is responding only to the post and not generally taking into account who the author of the post is. However, I chose not too since I felt disagreement at that point might only serve to support your thesis. Then, two hours later you post this:

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

Why the change in two hours? I didn't edit my post. My words were the same. My intention, as outlined above, was the same. So why the change in you? And, yes, I do think you should apply self control, in the same way I do and the same way I recommended. i.e. if a thread seriously upsets you then control your access to it - don't visit it.

If you find that recommendation somehow offensive then I am at a loss as to what to say. The technique works for me; I know it works for others. I thought you could benefit from the advice, not find something else to get upset about. I'm perplexed.

Originally Posted by John Galt

@seagypsy. Are you concerned about something, I ask myself. Well based on this portion of your OP it seems that you are.

Whether I agree with someone's perspective on belief or not, i have to wonder why anyone would constantly create threads to discuss it. Why? Your decision has been made, do you need more confirmation? Is your faith or lack there of on shaky ground? Do you need a bunch of people to validate your position on the unknown? Why so damned obsessed? Does it make you feel good to create threads or derail threads in such a way that it gets everyone into a pissing contest and you hope that your team wins? Why don't we discuss the psychology of what causes obsession with conflict. Are we just that damned competitive? Do we need an arm wrestling sub forum.

Sorry had to get this off my chest. The atmosphere of the forum has been getting to me. it makes about as much sense as team vampire vs team werewolf. I have lost most of my motivation to participate in any forum or thread because it seems it is only a matter of time before someone pops up and carries their frustration from this forum towards another member into other subforums and completely ruins good threads

I've emphasised one of your sentences as it seemed important enough to you to repeat again in your final paragraph. It certainly seemed to me as if you were upset. I've just re-read your OP and I am still left with that impression - that you were upset and upset enough that you had to get your thoughts on the issue "off your chest".

I told you I had similar concerns. I explained, as an example, there was one thread whose contents made me so upset I was aware that I would likely become enraged if I were to take the risk of reading its contents. I told you how I dealt with that. I controlled my exposure to the upsetting topic by avoiding it. That's self control. I recommended this same behaviour to you. As a reminder, here is what I said.

You shouldn't feel obligated to participate in threads that get you upset. I will not even open one of the Aquatic Ape Threads because I know if I do it will lead to my departure from the forum and the alienation of individuals whom I generally respect. Such self control might work for you.

Now I become really confused, since you post two responses to my post, separated by approximately two hours and by a world in terms of tenor.

That's just it, I don't really get upset when it happens in the religion threads. It's unavoidable there. But when the angst between members in those threads starts spilling over into other non associated threads, it gets tiresome. Everyone involved seems to be responding to each other in every other thread in uncharacteristically condescending and accusational tones, and they are all being overly sensitive to any and all criticism given by any member they disagreed with in the religion threads.

It just seems that objectivity has been put on pause and everyone just needs to get in a cage match and beat the crap out of each other so a winner can be declared and we can all move on.

That was your first repsonse. It elicited two likes from Kalster and Flick Montana. I considered responding, since I feel that I do not carry issues between threads. Indeed, one of my weaknesses is responding only to the post and not generally taking into account who the author of the post is. However, I chose not too since I felt disagreement at that point might only serve to support your thesis. Then, two hours later you post this:

So you avoided being honest in your response because you didn't want to support a perceived thesis that you didn't like. All I can say is, if you don't think something applies to you, then no need to respond to it. I didn't name any names and so there was no reason for you to feel personally accused, unless maybe you have a guilty conscience. Which I doubt, because that would require you to acknowledge fault on some level.

Originally Posted by John Galt

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Sure John, maybe I should try self control. I certainly haven't shown any at all in the religion threads. Since I wasn't referring to religion threads though, I'll bow out of the forum all together. Thank you for that wonderful advice. Chalk one up for the genius who has the grand mature answer, "if ya don't like it leave". Seems even a mod prefers the drama rather than settling issues. Good deal. See ya.

Why the change in two hours? I didn't edit my post. My words were the same. My intention, as outlined above, was the same. So why the change in you? And, yes, I do think you should apply self control, in the same way I do and the same way I recommended. i.e. if a thread seriously upsets you then control your access to it - don't visit it.

If you find that recommendation somehow offensive then I am at a loss as to what to say. The technique works for me; I know it works for others. I thought you could benefit from the advice, not find something else to get upset about. I'm perplexed.

You honestly don't see your own flaws, do you? You are right, I did have what appeared to be a change in my response. But the second response is reflective of my initial reaction. Part of your post was reasonable, that was what I responded to the first time, but the implication that I do not control myself in religious threads was the unreasonable and insulting part. I was going to ignore it but decided against it. It isn't fair that you consistently get away with throwing subtle insults at people just because you are a mod. More and more I am starting to think that whole self banning thing you did was all theatrics so you could show off "hey look at how good and fair I am." You fooled me then but you have blown your cover now. You do not control yourself JG or you would have refrained from posting the insulting portion of your post.

Suggesting that I be more like you, and implying that you control yourself but I don't is not an example of self control. It is antagonistic and got the response you may have wanted. Hmm.. what can we say that is very subtle yet still comes across insulting so we can criticize the person we are insulting for responding to it? That's how you are JG, so is that how you are suggesting I and everyone else should be? Problem with that is, too many people are already like that. A few reasonable arguments made laced with subtle insults in hopes of making the other lose their temper so the antagonist can say, "oh my word, look how angry they are, what a trouble maker they are."

You are continuing to insinuate that I don't use self control in this post as well. Continuing to give someone advice to behave a certain way reflects the perception that the behavior is not already being practiced. You certainly wouldn't tell someone with a career to get a job now would you. You wouldn't advise a fitness instructor that they need to try exercise. And you wouldn't suggest to a fish that they should experiment with living in water. And you wouldn't advise someone who you perceive to exercise self control that they should try self control.

No one is capable of self control at every moment but you certainly are under the impression that you control yourself in all of your posts. You clearly do not. And your post implied that I expressed thing that I didn't.

But I will exercise a bit more control. Since I cannot put you on ignore officially, I'll just pretend you don't exist from here on out. Sadly, if i put everyone on ignore that pulls your insulting tactics Ill have almost the entire forum on ignore.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Sadly, if I put everyone on ignore that pulls your insulting tactics Ill have almost the entire forum on ignore.

I know a member you can't ignore...

For myself, I've managed to squabble and fight with several members whose opinions I value and respect.
Flick Montana is one. Strange is another one. Lynx Fox, as well. (This does not include Harold, however, that claimed a "self fulfilling prophecy" by claiming Pavlos was trolling by starting a thread about Critical Thinking and then closed the thread when I called him on such arrogant and absurd behavior. That guy seriously needs to step down as Admin and let someone in the job that can be trusted.)
I don't much like it, truth told. But I see little course as I should be able to discuss errors I perceive in a members posts without favoritism.
I don't mind debate, I don't mind heated debate and I won't shy away from confrontation.
Perhaps I've allowed my own responses to get too emotional and detracted from the points I was making. But even if I did, others should still have the insight to see the points, anyway.

To me, saying that it shows self control to avoid a topic doesn't seem like a solution. Self control is to confront the topic but do so while making strong points.
Whether I posted with emphatic emotion, I don't think many can deny that I used quotes and pointed out fallacies where I saw them.

Self control is not refraining from speaking your mind. Self control is speaking your mind and making your arguments without calling the other guy an idiot.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

No one is an asshole because they do or do not believe in god. They are assholes because it is their nature to be one.

Exactly. It tickles me that some Christians will say to one another, "You have no idea what I was like before I became a Christian", and then they'll reveal their supposedly hitherto unknown "former self". It's funny because their personality almost never changes. If they were an obnoxious blowhard, they become an obnoxious blowhard for Christ. If they were a mousy little bookworm, they become a mousy little Bible-worm. If they were a snake-oil salesman, they become a snake-oil salesman for Christ. Same personality, different goal. That's all. And I just sit there and act surprised.

Originally Posted by Neverfly

Originally Posted by seagypsy

Sadly, if I put everyone on ignore that pulls your insulting tactics Ill have almost the entire forum on ignore.

I know a member you can't ignore...

Be careful not to slip into delusion. I ignore plenty of your posts on the forum.

But I still love you.

I have noticed something very sad. Just about everyone on this thread that have been participating in the religion threads, joined in here only to take another shot at the other team. Really people? is that the best any of us can do? No one wants to see their own faults. Blame it on the other guy. present yourself as if you are on the side of the one giving chastisement as if doing so automatically exonerates you of any guilt.

Request to admins-- close this thread, it completely failed its purpose.

Originally Posted by seagypsy

I have noticed something very sad. Just about everyone on this thread that have been participating in the religion threads, joined in here only to take another shot at the other team. Really people? is that the best any of us can do? No one wants to see their own faults. Blame it on the other guy. present yourself as if you are on the side of the one giving chastisement as if doing so automatically exonerates you of any guilt.

Well, fine then.
I'm Guilty of it too.

But I do not agree with you- I'm fulfilling my own purpose within your thread- airing my grievances against the behavior of Harold and since I never get any satisfactory response on that- I will continue to do so until I get satisfaction.

It's ABSURD to ban other members for the behaviors cited, yet he's taken part in that same behavior.

This is why I also push for the accountability of a Ban Log- which falls on deaf ears.