Notices
Results 1 to 67 of 67
Like Tree2Likes
  • 1 Post By MacGyver1968
  • 1 Post By sculptor

Thread: god is powerless

  1. #1 god is powerless 
    Forum Sophomore vslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    121
    ok, so out of a philisophical debate i was having in library at lunch time, emerged a new theory that:

    a god is an all powerful being or entity. yet at the same time, we have power to control our thoughts and actions (as well as a range of other power existing in different forms throughout the universe), so if a god created us, then in order to do so, it must haev forfeited some of its own power. because god cannot have power over us if we do, so therefore the god now has no power to govern any conscious being.

    and if a god cannot govern any concious being, then how can it help us. how can praying to this god for help benefit us in any way. the god no longer has power over us, and no longer has power over our fates. so essentially, by creating us, god has given us its power.

    so if gods power was infinite, and the universe is infinite, then by creating the universe and beings in the universe, this god destroyed itself.

    conclusion: in order for us to exist, a god cannot, religion is wrong


    and so the balance of power shifts...
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Blah-blah blink. Ripley's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    104
    Interesting conjecture. However, I see it differently. To look upon Nature, the animal world for example, is to look upon a greater power that seems to overlook and orchestrate its impetus -- the animal world acts upon the laws of instinct, in harmony with its environment, its planet. The Will of Nature. The Will of the Universe.

    However, man (or any sentient life form in the Universe), has independence of will; for without it there could hardly be sentience. In other words, a self-ticking Will that's being experimented upon, demonstrated and manipulated -- and how else can it be, for Will requires an independence of mind.

    But it isn't man's 21st century that has sprouted from the swamp. It is Will. Hence Will is of the Universe.

    I don't see how God's Will (Universal Law) is being challenged here or diminished simply because man can exercise some form of will and gingerly say 'mine'.


     

  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    36
    That's not your will. God makes you want to do what you do. She decides what your will desires, with an illusion of free will.

    Or so you could argue. You could also say god just doesn't exist and clear it up that way.
    Sciforums Refugee.
     

  5. #4  
    Blah-blah blink. Ripley's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    104
    She decides what your will desires, with an illusion of free will.
    Like a tv commercial. And what oversees tv commercials? Market share and lots and lots of money. And who pockets the profits? The universe?
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman kestasjk's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    74
    Quote Originally Posted by ad . hoc
    She decides what your will desires, with an illusion of free will.
    Like a tv commercial. And what oversees tv commercials? Market share and lots and lots of money. And who pockets the profits? The universe?
    How perceptive of you..
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    vslayer,



    ok, so out of a philisophical debate i was having in library at lunch time, emerged a new theory that:
    Second of all, a full belly doesn't think straight.


    First of all, if you wish to talk about god, you need to be in the clear what god you are talking about.

    Are you talking about some arbitrary philosophical construct, a god of logical inference?

    Or are you talking about Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Krishna or whomever?

    Once you are in the clear about that, then you should proceed. Otherwise, you are just stirring theoretical bullshit with no actual support.


    a god is an all powerful being or entity. yet at the same time, we have power to control our thoughts and actions (as well as a range of other power existing in different forms throughout the universe), so if a god created us, then in order to do so, it must haev forfeited some of its own power. because god cannot have power over us if we do, so therefore the god now has no power to govern any conscious being.
    All-powerful does not mean all-intervening.

    If one doesn't do something, this doesn't mean he is unable do it.


    and if a god cannot govern any concious being, then how can it help us. how can praying to this god for help benefit us in any way. the god no longer has power over us, and no longer has power over our fates. so essentially, by creating us, god has given us its power.
    Start off with an invalid premise, and this is what you get.


    so if gods power was infinite, and the universe is infinite, then by creating the universe and beings in the universe, this god destroyed itself.
    If said god is all-powerful (as you first postulated), then nothing is impossible.


    conclusion: in order for us to exist, a god cannot, religion is wrong
    Bah.
     

  8. #7  
    JX
    JX is offline
    Forum Junior JX's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    288
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    All-powerful does not mean all-intervening.

    If one doesn't do something, this doesn't mean he is unable do it.
    My thoughts exactly. Although my belief system is based on something other than modern religion, I believe that God gave everyone free will to do with their life/lives what they would. Of course all actions have consequences, and although I don't believe in Hell, I do believe that once you leave the Earth physically you will have to look your actions in the face. I think that life is an experience and that we are all here to learn our lessons. Just my thoughts.
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    36
    No! You are all mistaken! It is precisely because our great purple potato god has grown buds and leaves that we are able to have free will! He could easily sever away our free will like little green stems snipped off with scissors!

    Now get down and pray for forgiveness!
    Sciforums Refugee.
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Sophomore vslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    121
    water,

    1. eh?

    2. i refer to all theist style "gods"

    3. but how can both me and a god have power over my actions. if a god has power over us, then it always does, it doesnt jsut control us at certain times.

    4. what was invalid about it

    5. if the god is not all powerful then it is not a god
    and so the balance of power shifts...
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    36
    Quote Originally Posted by vslayer
    3. but how can both me and a god have power over my actions. if a god has power over us, then it always does, it doesnt jsut control us at certain times.
    This is wrong. If we assume the god exists, then the god has complete power over you, but usually chooses to set your controls on "autopilot" so that your mortal brain takes over. This is usually the case; you get the illusion of free will.

    When the god so chooses, that autopilot can be turned off or tweaked to a different setting to allow for different levels of more direct control.

    What is so hard about this that you can't understand it, vslayer? You seem to be taking "either A is one or the other! NEVER could be another explanation! NEVER NEVER NEVER!" stance.
    Sciforums Refugee.
     

  12. #11 Re: god is powerless 
    j
    j is offline
    Forum Bachelors Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    431
    Quote Originally Posted by vslayer
    ... and if a god cannot govern any concious being, then how can it help us. how can praying to this god for help benefit us in any way.
    I think that your ideas about prayer are a bit naive; one should offer prayers as worship; I was taught that one should only ask for acceptance of whatever life throws at one and the strength to deal with it.
    Prayer for other personal attributes, like compassion, charity, wisdom, is acceptable, but one must always guard against asking for personal favors.

    "You don't pray to ask God for a pony for your birthday."

    Quote Originally Posted by vslayer
    the god no longer has power over us, and no longer has power over our fates. so essentially, by creating us, god has given us its power.

    so if gods power was infinite, and the universe is infinite, then by creating the universe and beings in the universe, this god destroyed itself.
    That could be the beginning of an interesting theology.
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Freshman Awake's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Virginia, US
    Posts
    25
    It is always presumed that god is 'out there'. Maybe there isn't a god like you've always thought but everyone and everything is all 'one', which is "God"
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    36
    That could be the beginning of an interesting theology.
    "Beginning"?

    Hindus would double over in hysterical laughter at how Westerners think they thought of everything first. Silly, really.

    News flash. Among the Hindu creation myths in the Vedas there is a myth of God destroying himself to create the world. It's been around for thousands of years.

    No wonder we get nutjobs saying eastern religion is nihilistic; hardly anyone here knows anything about it.
    Sciforums Refugee.
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Zero
    That could be the beginning of an interesting theology.
    "Beginning"?

    Hindus would double over in hysterical laughter at how Westerners think they thought of everything first. Silly, really.

    News flash. Among the Hindu creation myths in the Vedas there is a myth of God destroying himself to create the world. It's been around for thousands of years.

    No wonder we get nutjobs saying eastern religion is nihilistic; hardly anyone here knows anything about it.
    That's why I said that to a Westerner, the experience of Eastern religion usually equals that of getting drunk.
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    vslayer,


    1. eh?
    Yes. If you stuffed full of food, you can't think well, as a large amount of blood goes into your intestines, leaving the brain less than it needs for logical scrutiny.


    2. i refer to all theist style "gods"
    Then you are arguing from a strawman.

    There is no unified "theist style gods".
    Krishna is quite different from Jehovah or Odin etc.
    Be precise.


    3. but how can both me and a god have power over my actions. if a god has power over us, then it always does, it doesnt jsut control us at certain times.
    You are able to press the "m" key on your keyboard. But this doesn't mean that you have to be pressing it all the time to prove you are able to do it.
    What we get from you is *not* *just* mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    All-powerful does not mean all-intervening.

    Otherwise, you seem to be arguing about a god who has no will, only power. Such a god would indeed be a puppet-master, and we its puppets.


    4. what was invalid about it
    I explained here.


    5. if the god is not all powerful then it is not a god
    You are assuming a god who has power, but no will.
    Your conclusion is true for a god who would have power, but would have no will.

    Is this clear now?


    And next time, post with quotes, not just numbers.
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Sophomore vslayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    new zealand
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Yes. If you stuffed full of food, you can't think well, as a large amount of blood goes into your intestines, leaving the brain less than it needs for logical scrutiny.
    that is under the assumption that i eat at lunch time, when in fact i eat 3-5 of what you would call meals between 4pm and 1am instead
    and so the balance of power shifts...
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Come, come now. You are going in the other extreme. You must eat well and properly.

     

  19. #18  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    First of all, if you wish to talk about god, you need to be in the clear what god you are talking about.
    I believe that he is specifying his own version of god and that you may be a little confused?

    Once you are in the clear about that, then you should proceed. Otherwise, you are just stirring theoretical bullshit with no actual support.
    From that point of view every religion/god is bullshit. Can you prove the existence of your own version of god without coming up with hand-written books?

    religion is wrong
    It is, unless there is actual proof supporting the truthness of any religion in existence, which there is not.
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Someguy,


    First of all, if you wish to talk about god, you need to be in the clear what god you are talking about.
    I believe that he is specifying his own version of god and that you may be a little confused?
    No, he's not "specifying his own version of god". He was referring to "all theist style "gods" " -- supposing that they all are essentially the same.


    And drop that tone.


    Once you are in the clear about that, then you should proceed. Otherwise, you are just stirring theoretical bullshit with no actual support.
    From that point of view every religion/god is bullshit.
    Hm?


    Can you prove the existence of your own version of god without coming up with hand-written books?
    One, I have no desire to prove anything to you.
    Two, all books are hand-written. Unless you think that a printed text automatically has obligatory scientific value.


    It is, unless there is actual proof supporting the truthness of any religion in existence, which there is not.
    Have you tried out anything that the various religions suggest you to do?
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    No, he's not "specifying his own version of god". He was referring to "all theist style "gods" " -- supposing that they all are essentially the same.
    I don't quite follow your logic, many religions' teachings speak of only one god, and mostly they conflict with other religions' teachings.

    God cannot be as any of the religions describe him.

    One, I have no desire to prove anything to you.
    Simply because you cannot. May I ask of you which religions' teachings you follow?

    Have you tried out anything that the various religions suggest you to do?
    Actually I did try alot. Until I realised that all of the current religions in existence are invalid for a variety of reasons. Are you saying that it can be proved that any of the current religions are based on truth?

    Guess what, in the past thousands of years there have been many religions and all their followers 'knew' their religion was the only true one. Just like you and many other people 'know' that theirs is the only true one.
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Someguy,


    I don't quite follow your logic, many religions' teachings speak of only one god, and mostly they conflict with other religions' teachings.
    And? This only says something about these religions, not necessarily about God.


    God cannot be as any of the religions describe him.
    It is reasonable to assume that no human religion can describe God in full anyway.
    This doesn't mean that they can't say anything about God though.


    One, I have no desire to prove anything to you.
    Simply because you cannot.
    Eh. So you think.
    I have no desire to prove anything to you.


    May I ask of you which religions' teachings you follow?
    None.


    Actually I did try alot. Until I realised that all of the current religions in existence are invalid for a variety of reasons. Are you saying that it can be proved that any of the current religions are based on truth?
    Yes.


    Guess what, in the past thousands of years there have been many religions and all their followers 'knew' their religion was the only true one.
    And? What are you implying?


    Just like you and many other people 'know' that theirs is the only true one.
    I really, really love it when I am assumed to be a member of a religion.
    Whew.
    I don't know where people get this idea from.
     

  23. #22 Re: god is powerless 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    317
    vslayer,

    a god is an all powerful being or entity. yet at the same time, we have power to control our thoughts and actions
    At home we have the power to boil water very quickly by using an electric kettle. What would happen if the source of that power stopped? Would we still have the same ability.
    We have power, because God has power.

    so if a god created us, then in order to do so, it must haev forfeited some of its own power. because god cannot have power over us if we do, so therefore the god now has no power to govern any conscious being.
    You said earlier; "a god is an all powerful being or entity."
    Think about what that means.

    and if a god cannot govern any concious being, then how can it help us. how can praying to this god for help benefit us in any way.
    In order to truly answer this question you have be immortal.

    the god no longer has power over us, and no longer has power over our fates. so essentially, by creating us, god has given us its power.
    So God isn't all-powerful then?

    so if gods power was infinite, and the universe is infinite, then by creating the universe and beings in the universe, this god destroyed itself.
    Is electricity destroyed if six million people put the kettle on simultaneosly?

    conclusion: in order for us to exist, a god cannot, religion is wrong
    Don't be so quick to come to such conclusions. There are things you haven't given too much thought to as yet.

    Jan Ardena.
     

  24. #23 The Power of God 
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    Our gods are only as powerful as we allow them to be.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  25. #24 Re: The Power of God 
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
    Our gods are only as powerful as we allow them to be.
    Aye, sure. Man decides whether God is allowed and able to create the universe ...
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    61


    "Aye, sure. Man decides whether God is allowed and able to create the universe ..."

    *Ahhh ... progress.
    Sorrow floats
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by stretch


    "Aye, sure. Man decides whether God is allowed and able to create the universe ..."

    *Ahhh ... progress.
    Be careful when talking to Medicine Woman. She claims she has proven a negative.
    It must be she has special knowledge no one else of us has!
     

  28. #27 Special knowledge 
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    **************
    M*W: What does that mean, Water? I have knowledge of what exists. You are a puppet of Christianity. Don't you know that Christianity is a false doctrine? You claim to be knowledgeable, but you're not. You believe in myths and metaphor. What kind of intelligence are you claiming? Mere myth! You are such a lost soul who believes in mere myth! What a waste of intelligence!
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    M*W,


    What does that mean, Water? I have knowledge of what exists.
    Really? Do I have a Siamese cat? Do I have a scar on my left palm? Was our neighbour's kid born with six toes on one foot? Was there ever life on Mars?

    You know none of these things. You have claimed that salvation doesn't come through Christ – how can you know that, if you haven't been there, if it hasn't happened for you?


    You are a puppet of Christianity. Don't you know that Christianity is a false doctrine?
    Sheesh, yes, I heard that what you are purporting is "just a theory" ...


    You claim to be knowledgeable, but you're not.
    Ha ha. You're very good at putting words into other people's mouth.


    You believe in myths and metaphor. What kind of intelligence are you claiming? Mere myth! You are such a lost soul who believes in mere myth! What a waste of intelligence!
    Now why the hell would I be a "lost soul"? If there is no salvation, then there is no lostness either. Or are you speaking in metaphors?
     

  30. #29 Everything is relative, dumb ass. 
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: "Do I have a Siamese cat? Do I have a scar on my left palm? Was our neighbour's kid born with six toes on one foot? Was there ever life on Mars?"
    *************
    M*W: How would I know the things I never claimed to know? What's more, you're nobody, so why would anyone know these things about you? Or care?
    *************
    water: "You know none of these things. You have claimed that salvation doesn't come through Christ – how can you know that, if you haven't been there, if it hasn't happened for you?"
    *************
    M*W: I've studied this subject for more than 20 years. I've read everything I could find on the subject -- both pro and con. I've visited many sites in Europe to confirm my Christian beliefs (at that time) but was always left with doubt, contradictions, and the overwhelming aura of paganism. Even though I gave up Christianity, something inside of me wanted to still prove that Jesus existed -- even as recently before sciforums was taken down. But, I just couldn't find the proof. The only thing that remained constant was the mythology of the dying demigod savior that appeared in many cultures and recorded throughout history before the times of Abraham and Moses and the more ancient pagan sun worshippers. The central theme of the dying demigod savior was embellished throughout human history even though it started as fear and awe of the sun.
    *************
    water: "Sheesh, yes, I heard that what you are purporting is "just a theory" ..."
    *************
    M*W: It is easier to prove that Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and God have no factual basis than it is to prove Jesus existed. The "theory" is that he did exist, but it cannot be proven nor can the validity of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, be proven to be authentic. There is NO authenticity in any religion as all are man made.
    *************
    water: "Now why the hell would I be a "lost soul"? If there is no salvation, then there is no lostness either. Or are you speaking in metaphors?"
    *************
    M*W: There is simply no such thing as salvation, that is, unless you consider your present existence as a form of "salvation." In using the word "soul," I was referring to your "being" and not something which is redeemable.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  31. #30 Re: Everything is relative, dumb ass. 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    28
    Quote Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
    What's more, you're nobody, so why would anyone know these things about you? Or care?
    Point missed.
    There is information missing from what you know.
    Twenty years of study doesn't allow you to overcome an "impossible" task, i.e. proving, or disproving the existence of a christian God.

    Quote Originally Posted by M*W
    M*W: I've studied this subject for more than 20 years. I've read everything I could find on the subject -- both pro and con. I've visited many sites in Europe to confirm my Christian beliefs (at that time) but was always left with doubt, contradictions, and the overwhelming aura of paganism. Even though I gave up Christianity, something inside of me wanted to still prove that Jesus existed -- even as recently before sciforums was taken down. But, I just couldn't find the proof.
    problem #1 - false teachings about the nature of faith given to you by people who claimed knowledge of God has the same method of understanding as a mathematical proof, i.e. begin at the given axiom(s) and use the rules to arrive at your (mental) answer.

    Possibilities - Maybe the starting point was incorrect, maybe the rules you applied were incorrect, maybe your understanding of the rules or understanding of the starting point was incorrect, maybe your application was mistakenly worked out.

    Your experience doesn't negate a thing, it might for you, but it doesn't have any effect on a universal level.

    Quote Originally Posted by water
    water: "Now why the hell would I be a "lost soul"?
    Funny
    Hell... lost soul

    We attack a mountain with pistols.
    Why shouldn't that be fun?
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Medicine Woman,


    water: "Do I have a Siamese cat? Do I have a scar on my left palm? Was our neighbour's kid born with six toes on one foot? Was there ever life on Mars?"
    *************
    M*W: How would I know the things I never claimed to know?
    I'm just giving examples on how you can't prove a negative. The same like you don't know about the scar on my left palm etc., you don't know whether there is salvation in Christianity, or not.


    What's more, you're nobody, so why would anyone know these things about you? Or care?
    Careful there. If you say I'm nobody, then whom are you talking to? Nobody? Your illusion?


    water: "You know none of these things. You have claimed that salvation doesn't come through Christ – how can you know that, if you haven't been there, if it hasn't happened for you?"
    *************
    M*W: I've studied this subject for more than 20 years. I've read everything I could find on the subject -- both pro and con. I've visited many sites in Europe to confirm my Christian beliefs (at that time) but was always left with doubt, contradictions, and the overwhelming aura of paganism. Even though I gave up Christianity, something inside of me wanted to still prove that Jesus existed -- even as recently before sciforums was taken down. But, I just couldn't find the proof. The only thing that remained constant was the mythology of the dying demigod savior that appeared in many cultures and recorded throughout history before the times of Abraham and Moses and the more ancient pagan sun worshippers. The central theme of the dying demigod savior was embellished throughout human history even though it started as fear and awe of the sun.
    You silly woman, you must have indeed been very unfortunate, and confounded.

    Faith is a gift from God, you can not will it.

    No matter what "proof" you see, it is nothing unless God grants you the understanding of it, and faith.

    All those 20 years you did nothing but trying to believe by will. Granted, many religionists have done a shitty job presenting religion, making people think that faith is a matter of will, and you fell for that -- I don't blame you and it just happened the way it did.

    You cannot believe by will, you cannot have faith by will. God gives it. You cannot earn it, and you cannot plan it. It is up to God to give it.


    water: "Sheesh, yes, I heard that what you are purporting is "just a theory" ..."
    *************
    M*W: It is easier to prove that Jesus, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and God have no factual basis than it is to prove Jesus existed.
    For the umpteenth time: You cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that there are no huge purple pink-spotted flying squids living in the ice of Antarctica.
    Just because no one has seen any does not mean we can claim they don't exist.
    The same, you can't claim that there is no salvation in Christ – there is no way for you to test this *now*.


    Whether Christianity is true and God exists does not depend on you, neither on the proof you can find for or against them.
    Only God can answer you that so that it will be true for *you*. But before you inquire of God, you need to be sure whether you are truly inquiring that of God, and not of your preconceptions, fears and projections. God isn't everything you might think Him to be.


    The "theory" is that he did exist, but it cannot be proven nor can the validity of Christianity, Judaism and Islam, be proven to be authentic. There is NO authenticity in any religion as all are man made.
    Religion is man-made anyway; God did not invent religion. Religion is merely man's way of coming to God.
    As far as I know, no religion feel from the sky, so that it would be "authentic" and not man-made..


    M*W: There is simply no such thing as salvation,
    Again, you presume to have proven a negative.
     

  33. #32  
    Blah-blah blink. Ripley's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Faith is a gift from God, you can not will it.
    Have you ever been stranded by civilisation only to discover that they also stole the Ronson?

    Faith can be willed. Like fire, it can also ignite with plain sticks and stones found in nature. What happens when civilisation's fate means nothing no more? When their faith is mote? When prayer is a caricature for your will to understand? What happens when you vanish from what was once the harbour of a friendly existence? And all that's left are zombies in your midst?

    Faith must thence be reinvented.
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: "Do I have a Siamese cat? Do I have a scar on my left palm? Was our neighbour's kid born with six toes on one foot? Was there ever life on Mars?"
    *************
    M*W: "How would I know the things I never claimed to know?"
    *************
    water: "I'm just giving examples on how you can't prove a negative. The same like you don't know about the scar on my left palm etc., you don't know whether there is salvation in Christianity, or not."
    *************
    M*W: There are many things I don't know nor would ever claim to know. For example, I have not done the research or investigation to find out if you actually do have a siamese cat. I have never examined you physically to see if you have a scar on your left palm. I don't know how many toes your neighbor's kid has, and I don't know if life ever happened on Mars, because I have not investigated these occurrences. Further, I would have no interest in doing so.

    However, I have researched and investigated many aspects of Christianity, even to the point of becoming one and learning it from the inside. While I was caught-up in the religious ritual and fervor of it, I, too, believed Jesus as God had died and was resurrected, and that I would attain salvation because of his sacrifice. But I was never quite convinced that it could be this simple, so I set out to search for the true meaning of it all. I wanted to learn more than what the bible taught and what the church taught. I wanted to get into the "mind" of Christianity to see just what it was that brought the masses in. The more I read, the more I searched, the enigma began to fade while the paganism of it all reared its deceptive head. This opened more closets, and I continued reading everything I could about it. I honestly thought something was "wrong" with me for coming to such conclusions. What a tremendous guilty conscious I had! Fortunately, I did not succumb to the guilt and perservered to find the truth. While
    I realized I was going against the rules of the church by questioning its doctrine, I could not simply put this away and pretend to be a good Christian. The more I searched, the more closets were opening.

    When I first came to sciforums, I still believed in God and the historical Jesus, but I did not believe Jesus was God nor did he die on the cross. Two years into sciforums, and my belief that Jesus wasn't a deity was confirmed. Three years into sciforums, and I learned that the only god there could possibly be indwelled within humanity. Four years into sciforums, and I knew there was no god that created us and the man Jesus probably never existed. What we call the 'god' is nothing more than positive energy constantly in and out of balance with negative energy or what we call the devil. All the stories of god throughout the ages of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, were nothing than myths made up by humans to describe powers greater than themselves. All these myths were just stories about the constellations, the sun, moon, stars, planets, and the elements that early humans didn't understand. These myths replicated in various cultures, but they were all based on astrology and astronomical representations.
    *************
    water: "Faith is a gift from God, you can not will it."

    "No matter what "proof" you see, it is nothing unless God grants you the understanding of it, and faith."
    *************
    M*W: Faith is not a gift from God, faith is believing in something one doesn't understand but trusts.
    *************
    water: "You cannot believe by will, you cannot have faith by will. God gives it. You cannot earn it, and you cannot plan it. It is up to God to give it."
    *************
    M*W: Yes, it is quite easy to believe in anything if you will it to be so. That's nothing more than mind over matter. I don't believe in a god who has power to give me faith. When I had faith, I did believe in God. I suppose the two go together. But now I can clearly see that there is no god, no son of god, no lucifer, no angels, no apostles, no saints, no martyrs. I would, however, defend your right to believe as you do whether I agree with your beliefs or not.
    *************
    water: "For the umpteenth time: You cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that there are no huge purple pink-spotted flying squids living in the ice of Antarctica. Just because no one has seen any does not mean we can claim they don't exist. The same, you can't claim that there is no salvation in Christ – there is no way for you to test this *now*.
    *************
    M*W: Since no one on Earth can prove god or Jesus ever existed much less died to redeem us, that is the negative. Can you offer proof of their existence? I don't think so. You can only offer what you believe to be true in your mind, but that doesn't make it true for the rest of us -- especially those of us who have searched to find the truth.
    *************
    water: "Whether Christianity is true and God exists does not depend on you, neither on the proof you can find for or against them. Only God can answer you that so that it will be true for *you*. But before you inquire of God, you need to be sure whether you are truly inquiring that of God, and not of your preconceptions, fears and projections. God isn't everything you might think Him to be."
    *************
    M*W: Of course not, but I don't look to any 'god' to find the truth. Truth can only be found from within. It's the 'knowing.' It's peaceful. It all makes sense. It is the gift of discernment.
    *************
    water: "Religion is man-made anyway; God did not invent religion. Religion is merely man's way of coming to God. As far as I know, no religion feel from the sky, so that it would be "authentic" and not man-made.."
    *************
    M*W: This is true, but what do you think prodded humans to create religions based on fear and awe in the skies? If this were really God, then there should be no confusion about it. Everyone would have a common understanding of this truth, and worship in kind, but that's not the case.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  35. #34  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
    M*W: Faith is not a gift from God, faith is believing in something one doesn't understand but trusts.
    I don't have much time today, but I must reply to this now:

    If you think that faith is not a gift from God ... if you think that faith in God is not a gift from God ... then there is no wonder that your belief in God and Jesus as you once had them didn't last.

    Sheesh, that faith is not a gift from God is unbiblical. Are you aware of that?
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: If you think that faith is not a gift from God ... if you think that faith in God is not a gift from God ... then there is no wonder that your belief in God and Jesus as you once had them didn't last.

    Sheesh, that faith is not a gift from God is unbiblical. Are you aware of that?
    *************
    M*W: Of course, I am aware of this, but why should I care what is biblical or not? I am an atheist. None of the bible is what you believe it to be. The bible was written by men, of men, and for men. The bible, if you read it with the truth in mind, you will see that its stories and myths represent ancient astrological bodies and movements.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  37. #36 God is not powerless.. 
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    101
    He closed Sciforums down!.

    Was the closure of sci a sign?.

    Oh! heck I'm just delirious, to see some old friends.

    Godless.
    Don't count your money while your sitting on the table.
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    28
    m*w said - "When I first came to sciforums, I still believed in God and the historical Jesus, but I did not believe Jesus was God nor did he die on the cross. Two years into sciforums, and my belief that Jesus wasn't a deity was confirmed. Three years into sciforums, and I learned that the only god there could possibly be indwelled within humanity. Four years into sciforums, and I knew there was no god that created us and the man Jesus probably never existed. What we call the 'god' is nothing more than positive energy constantly in and out of balance with negative energy or what we call the devil. "

    Interesting.
    When i happened upon sci forums, i was trying to let go of my "childish" belief system, i.e. the type which believes something and still insists the opposite is true.
    So I have to learn to exist with doubts, uncomfortable faith situations, and unknowns, instead of shutting those unanswered questions out, or pretending I don't have them. It is starting to feel really good, not the same as the happy, clappy christian thing, but a lot more "right" for my life now.
    My religious experience is less immediately satisfying and intense, but it is also more inclusive, more expansive, more forgiving, and more peaceful.

    Godless, I am also glad there are so many sci-forums refugees here. It is a good day to be here...
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    http://www.christianforums.com/t1570...-be-saved.html

    Check out esp. the posts by Reformationist.
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
    M*W: Of course, I am aware of this, but why should I care what is biblical or not? I am an atheist. None of the bible is what you believe it to be. The bible was written by men, of men, and for men. The bible, if you read it with the truth in mind, you will see that its stories and myths represent ancient astrological bodies and movements.
    Are you saying that you were an atheist ALL ALONG?


    Back then, when you tried to be a Christian, if you did not believe that faith is granted by God -- it comes as no suprise that all your tries amounted to unbelief.
    You did nothing but actively trying to make yourself believe, completely shutting God out of the picture. You were striving to be a Deist, not a Christian.
     

  41. #40  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    I've always had problems believing that the devil exists, and that God confounds people. You have challenged me well, Medicine Woman.


    However, I have researched and investigated many aspects of Christianity, even to the point of becoming one and learning it from the inside. While I was caught-up in the religious ritual and fervor of it, I, too, believed Jesus as God had died and was resurrected, and that I would attain salvation because of his sacrifice. But I was never quite convinced that it could be this simple, so I set out to search for the true meaning of it all. I wanted to learn more than what the bible taught and what the church taught. I wanted to get into the "mind" of Christianity to see just what it was that brought the masses in. The more I read, the more I searched, the enigma began to fade while the paganism of it all reared its deceptive head. This opened more closets, and I continued reading everything I could about it. I honestly thought something was "wrong" with me for coming to such conclusions. What a tremendous guilty conscious I had! Fortunately, I did not succumb to the guilt and perservered to find the truth. While
    I realized I was going against the rules of the church by questioning its doctrine, I could not simply put this away and pretend to be a good Christian. The more I searched, the more closets were opening.
    In other words, all the while you were believing in God and Jesus, you also simultaneously doubted them.


    When I first came to sciforums, I still believed in God and the historical Jesus, but I did not believe Jesus was God nor did he die on the cross. Two years into sciforums, and my belief that Jesus wasn't a deity was confirmed. Three years into sciforums, and I learned that the only god there could possibly be indwelled within humanity. Four years into sciforums, and I knew there was no god that created us and the man Jesus probably never existed.
    Yeehaw Sciforums!


    What we call the 'god' is nothing more than positive energy constantly in and out of balance with negative energy or what we call the devil. All the stories of god throughout the ages of Abraham, Moses and Jesus, were nothing than myths made up by humans to describe powers greater than themselves. All these myths were just stories about the constellations, the sun, moon, stars, planets, and the elements that early humans didn't understand. These myths replicated in various cultures, but they were all based on astrology and astronomical representations.
    Hold on. You can't say people just confabulated something out of nothing. You can't make up a myth.
    First, there is a real event, which then, in time and through being retold and embellished many times, turns into a legend, which then, upon further telling and embellishment, turns into myth.

    But it is, from a myth, hard, if not impossible to prove, what the actual original event was.

    That astrology and astronomical representations are the basis for Christianity is just a theory that cannot be proven.


    water: "You cannot believe by will, you cannot have faith by will. God gives it. You cannot earn it, and you cannot plan it. It is up to God to give it."
    M*W: Yes, it is quite easy to believe in anything if you will it to be so.
    Then your power and abiltiy of self-deception is waaaaaaaaaay beyond my wildest imagionations about what one can believe.


    I don't believe in a god who has power to give me faith. When I had faith, I did believe in God.
    Apparently not. If you had believed in God, in a benevolent God who acts, then you wouldn't come where you have.


    But now I can clearly see that there is no god, no son of god, no lucifer, no angels, no apostles, no saints, no martyrs.
    Hold your horses. Are there huge purple pink-spotted squids, anywhere?

    And even if you do investigate, it will never suffice to say "So and so does not exist".

    The best you can come up with is "So and so does not exist in the places I have looked, the methods I have used do not point to its existence".

    Thus, your search proves that WHERE YOU HAVE LOOKED for God and Jesus, and WITH THE METHODS YOU HAVE USED, there is no God and Jesus.

    This does NOT mean that there is no God and Jesus, anywhere else.


    M*W: Since no one on Earth can prove god or Jesus ever existed much less died to redeem us, that is the negative. Can you offer proof of their existence? I don't think so.
    You can't go around claiming that there is no God, unless you have used ALL methods of search, and searched EVERYWHERE.

    This is not humanly possible.


    You can only offer what you believe to be true in your mind, but that doesn't make it true for the rest of us -- especially those of us who have searched to find the truth.
    The funny thing is, Medicine Woman, is that I am not a Christian, neither do I believe in what Christianity says.
    I only see that the belief system of Christianity is innerly consistent, and is ultimately not self-referential.

    The claims you make are scientifically not sound, as you are starting from the claim that you have proven a negative.


    M*W: Of course not, but I don't look to any 'god' to find the truth.
    Back then, when you did believe in God -- Have you turned to God then, to find the truth?
    Or did you try to find the truth *regardless* of God?


    Truth can only be found from within.
    You, an empirical scientist, are saying this?


    M*W: This is true, but what do you think prodded humans to create religions based on fear and awe in the skies? If this were really God, then there should be no confusion about it. Everyone would have a common understanding of this truth, and worship in kind, but that's not the case.
    That doesn't follow.

    It would only be true if humans would have no free will -- and would thus be puppets to God.
     

  42. #41 Ouch! Dammit! 
    Forum Freshman Tiassa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bothell, Washington, USA
    Posts
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by Water
    http://www.christianforums.com/t1570357-why-desire-to-be-saved.html
    That site hurts my eyes. Some of those posts look like the back end of a hippie Subaru.
    "A red rose absorbs all colours but red; red is therefore the one colour that it is not." (Perdurabo)
     

  43. #42 Re: Ouch! Dammit! 
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiassa
    Quote Originally Posted by Water
    http://www.christianforums.com/t1570357-why-desire-to-be-saved.html
    That site hurts my eyes. Some of those posts look like the back end of a hippie Subaru.
    Indeed.
    But the point is that many Christians are doing a shitty job presenting Christianity. Not all though.
     

  44. #43 Oh ... right, the apologetics 
    Forum Freshman Tiassa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bothell, Washington, USA
    Posts
    72
    Oh, yeah, the important part.

    Maybe I can pray for a text-only page.



    (I might just have to take off my shades for that one. That's a cool smiley.)

    On Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Water
    The funny thing is ... that I am not a Christian, neither do I believe in what Christianity says.
    You know, I probably just missed it if you ever identified what you do believe, but I must admit, you managed to surprise me with that one. Maybe when we get our beloved archive back, I'll be able to figure out why.
    "A red rose absorbs all colours but red; red is therefore the one colour that it is not." (Perdurabo)
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    101
    I only see that the belief system of Christianity is innerly consistent
    There's no consistency in Christianity, or otherwise there only be one denomination of it.

    There literally seems to be hundreds of different denominations all with different sets of "traditions & rituals" all reading from same bible but using different or their own interpretation of it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._denominations

    Were the hell is the consistency?

    Other than using the same BS book. That only seems to be the only consistent phenomena of all these churches & denominations.

    There have been wars amongs these different sects of denominations as well, one that quickly comes to mind is Ireland.

    The Nine Years War was essentially caused by the collision between the ambition of the Gaelic Irish chieftain Hugh O’Neill and the advance of the English state in Ireland from control over the Pale to ruling the whole island. In resisting this advance, O’Neill managed to rally other Irish clans who were dissatisfied with English government and those Roman Catholics who opposed the spread of Protestantism in Ireland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special...ojs+wars&go=Go

    So were is the consistency between these two sects?. They both derive from Judeo Christian dogma, but yet are incompatible to live with one anoher. No consistency!.

    And if one were to studie further "religious wars"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_Wars

    I find very little if at all any consistency between the many sects of Christianity or for that matter any other religion, which opposes to force their religious views on the rest of the world. Basically it seems there's no consistency in belief in god!. If all it amounts to is War to force one denominations view over another.

    Sorry for the long rant, but basically I just thought it was ludicrious to mention "consitency" in any religion.

    Godless.
    Don't count your money while your sitting on the table.
     

  46. #45 Atheism 101 
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: Are you saying that you were an atheist ALL ALONG?
    *************
    M*W: No, I was a card-carrying, died-in-the-wool catholic christian, and God-forbid, I didn't entertain such thoughts, because it was the devil tempting me.
    *************
    water: Back then, when you tried to be a Christian, if you did not believe that faith is granted by God -- it comes as no suprise that all your tries amounted to unbelief.
    *************
    M*W: Back then, I believed everything my church told me to believe without question. If I were only pretending, I wouldn't have given it my all like I did. It would have only been a facade, but that's not the case. I ate, lived and breathed christianity. I taught catechism, and being catholic, the church became the center of my whole life. The only thing different about my dedication to the Church was that I didn't wear a habit. I had a husband and children.

    Back then, my awareness of God was the source from which all good things came. I had no will in this equation. I was totally submissive to God, my husband, my family, and the Church.

    Back then, I believed that faith was a gift from God.
    *************
    water: You did nothing but actively trying to make yourself believe, completely shutting God out of the picture. You were striving to be a Deist, not a Christian.
    *************
    M*W: Actually, I did everything I could to confirm my beliefs. Like I said, I traveled to many holy sites in Europe and took my children with me. I could likely say that I may have visited more Catholic churches in Europe than JPII! We were in the very first audience of JPII which was quite by accident. I'd purchased our pilgrimage tickets before PVI and JPI died. That was a holy concidence! I shook JPII's hand as he walked down the aisle, and somewhere in a box in my attic, I have the photo of my family taken with JPII. After visiting all the holy places, after being touched and blessed by JPII, after believing as fiercely as I did in christianity, I still could not reconcile everything that I had believed and experienced to give me the confirmation to continue to believe that Jesus had truly died for me! It just seemed so surreal to actually be in St. Peter's in the flesh!

    The doubt first came while in St. Peter's. It was the most magnificant place I've ever seen. I didn't understand my feelings and sensations at the time -- that would come years later. There was an overwhelming sensation of evil to the point of where my skin crawled. Among all that glitter and gold, and people were still starving in the world. All the wealth the Church held, and people were still dying in the world from disease. And, I observed the human behaviors of pilgrims from other countries, and it made me sad. All the pushing, shoving, cursing, trampling over little children to get to St. Peter's statue to kiss his foot! There was something very Pagan about St. Peter's Basilica, and this was upsetting to me. I soon realized that everything I had been taught by my church was nothing but a cover-up for Paganism. Not that I believed that there was something wrong with Paganism, but I had a hard time separating the two in my mind. Roman gods were everywhere. Mithras legends were everywhere. Where was the truth to be found if it wasn't what I had already learned from christianity? Did I dare question it? And, of course, I did.

    I asked a priest in St. Peter's about the crucifixion, and he told me I shouldn't be questioning such things. In France, I talked to a priest about the influence of Mary Magdalen. And back in Germany, I asked my priest questions regarding the resurrection. He simply referred me to the Christian library to study about whatever it was I needed to learn. Back in the USA, I asked my parish priest to explain the "missing link" to me. My quest for knowledge of my church ended there when he told me, "women shouldn't be asking such questions." Now, for the past 20 years, I've been doing my own research and, not surprisingly, I have finally come to know what I believe to be the truth. It was a personal loss, and I grieved for my loss because I had given it my all, and it was the most important part of my life. Then it was gone, but I survived, and now I understand that humans have a need to believe in something more powerful than they are -- a safety net for all our human frailities. As long as we delegate our own mortality to a god who isn't there, we live falsely in the denial of our own existence. We are all we have. There is nothing greater.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Freshman craterchains's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Tacoma, WA, usa
    Posts
    58
    god powerless?!?!

    Now why would anyone state such a thing? Here is the sovereign of the universe with all
    those resources of trillions of star systems in billions of galaxies, and you got what? And
    you call him powerless?
    It's not what you know or don't know, but what you know that isn't so that will hurt you. Will Rodgers 1938
     

  48. #47 Did you miss it? 
    Forum Freshman Tiassa's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Bothell, Washington, USA
    Posts
    72
    Quote Originally Posted by CraterChains
    god powerless?!?!

    Now why would anyone state such a thing?
    Did you read the topic post? Or are you just deeming its content useless enough to not warrant consideration?

    I mean, I could quote the existing answer to your question of why anyone would state such a thing, but I'd only be leaving a single line out of Slayer's post: "ok, so out of a philisophical debate i was having in library at lunch time, emerged a new theory that:"

    Everything else between that and his signature is the answer to your question.
    "A red rose absorbs all colours but red; red is therefore the one colour that it is not." (Perdurabo)
     

  49. #48 Re: Atheism 101 
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Quote Originally Posted by Medicine*Woman
    M*W: Back then, I believed everything my church told me to believe without question.
    I find it sad and shameful that you had given in to what people told you.

    But I find it even more sad and shameful that you use those things people told you to now say there is no God.


    Back then, my awareness of God was the source from which all good things came. I had no will in this equation.
    Then you didn't believe anway. You believed out of helplessness and powerlessness, not out receiving a calling from God, or out of a true desire of your heart.


    I was totally submissive to God, my husband, my family, and the Church.
    Who came first?

    Was it truly God who was the first one on your list?

    No. If it were God, you would not have wavered and left the way you did.


    M*W: Actually, I did everything I could to confirm my beliefs.
    Then you didn't believe anyway.


    Like I said, I traveled to many holy sites in Europe and took my children with me. I could likely say that I may have visited more Catholic churches in Europe than JPII! We were in the very first audience of JPII which was quite by accident. I'd purchased our pilgrimage tickets before PVI and JPI died. That was a holy concidence! I shook JPII's hand as he walked down the aisle, and somewhere in a box in my attic, I have the photo of my family taken with JPII. After visiting all the holy places, after being touched and blessed by JPII, after believing as fiercely as I did in christianity, I still could not reconcile everything that I had believed and experienced to give me the confirmation to continue to believe that Jesus had truly died for me! It just seemed so surreal to actually be in St. Peter's in the flesh!

    The doubt first came while in St. Peter's. It was the most magnificant place I've ever seen. I didn't understand my feelings and sensations at the time -- that would come years later. There was an overwhelming sensation of evil to the point of where my skin crawled. Among all that glitter and gold, and people were still starving in the world. All the wealth the Church held, and people were still dying in the world from disease. And, I observed the human behaviors of pilgrims from other countries, and it made me sad. All the pushing, shoving, cursing, trampling over little children to get to St. Peter's statue to kiss his foot! There was something very Pagan about St. Peter's Basilica, and this was upsetting to me. I soon realized that everything I had been taught by my church was nothing but a cover-up for Paganism. Not that I believed that there was something wrong with Paganism, but I had a hard time separating the two in my mind. Roman gods were everywhere. Mithras legends were everywhere. Where was the truth to be found if it wasn't what I had already learned from christianity? Did I dare question it? And, of course, I did.

    I asked a priest in St. Peter's about the crucifixion, and he told me I shouldn't be questioning such things. In France, I talked to a priest about the influence of Mary Magdalen. And back in Germany, I asked my priest questions regarding the resurrection. He simply referred me to the Christian library to study about whatever it was I needed to learn. Back in the USA, I asked my parish priest to explain the "missing link" to me. My quest for knowledge of my church ended there when he told me, "women shouldn't be asking such questions." Now, for the past 20 years, I've been doing my own research and, not surprisingly, I have finally come to know what I believe to be the truth. It was a personal loss, and I grieved for my loss because I had given it my all, and it was the most important part of my life. Then it was gone, but I survived, and now I understand that humans have a need to believe in something more powerful than they are -- a safety net for all our human frailities. As long as we delegate our own mortality to a god who isn't there, we live falsely in the denial of our own existence. We are all we have. There is nothing greater.
    All you have here is one big relegation of responsibility.


    Answers you were supposed to seek from God, you sought them from people. And then you put them against God.

    Shame on you.
     

  50. #49  
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: I've always had problems believing that the devil exists, and that God confounds people. You have challenged me well, Medicine Woman.

    In other words, all the while you were believing in God and Jesus, you also simultaneously doubted them.
    *************
    M*W: No, I don't think that's possible. A belief is in one thing or the other but not both. That would imply the disbelief in one or both. Semantics aside, I truly had faith in God and Jesus until the point where I couldn't elicit any answers from the Church. I got the overwhelming sensation that they were trying to hide something, and I was partially right, they hid their ugly history of pedophilia from us all.
    As a Catholic, a Priest represents middleman between us and God. The Church represents God's Kingdom on Earth. The Pope represents Christ on Earth. If all these things were true as taught, why couldn't I get some simple answers? The reason -- they didn't want to give me those answers. It might confuse me or lead me astray. Then I might lead others astray. Who knows?
    *************
    water: Yeehaw Sciforums!

    Hold on. You can't say people just confabulated something out of nothing. You can't make up a myth.
    First, there is a real event, which then, in time and through being retold and embellished many times, turns into a legend, which then, upon further telling and embellishment, turns into myth.

    But it is, from a myth, hard, if not impossible to prove, what the actual original event was.

    That astrology and astronomical representations are the basis for Christianity is just a theory that cannot be proven.
    *************
    M*W: Just a few short years ago, I would have agreed with you. My understanding of astronomical movements for the basis of Christianity is very recent. There is an evolution to learning. There may be certain psychics who wake up one morning and, voila, they've uncovered some enigmatic secret puzzling mankind, but my knowing was not like this. It was a slow process of many years of reading everything I could find to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. I guess you could say that I doubted myself. But instead of finding the truth to Jesus=Savior, I only found more questions to ask, and I went from there.
    *************
    water: Then your power and abiltiy of self-deception is waaaaaaaaaay beyond my wildest imagionations about what one can believe.
    *************
    M*W: If anything, I am not self-deceptive. That was the guiding force in my search to prove me wrong!
    *************
    water: If you had believed in God, in a benevolent God who acts, then you wouldn't come where you have.
    *************
    M*W: I wanted to believe in a benevolent God, and I did believe. It's only a mind-control tactic when they tell us not to question. If there is a God, he gave us a mind -- to question!
    *************
    water: Hold your horses. Are there huge purple pink-spotted squids, anywhere? And even if you do investigate, it will never suffice to say "So and so does not exist".

    The best you can come up with is "So and so does not exist in the places I have looked, the methods I have used do not point to its existence".

    Thus, your search proves that WHERE YOU HAVE LOOKED for God and Jesus, and WITH THE METHODS YOU HAVE USED, there is no God and Jesus.

    This does NOT mean that there is no God and Jesus, anywhere else.
    *************
    M*W: Well, all I can say is that I've looked within Christianity, and I've looked without. There probably aren't many unturned stones in my research. I had hoped to find God and Jesus, and I did, but not where they were supposed to be.
    *************
    water: You can't go around claiming that there is no God, unless you have used ALL methods of search, and searched EVERYWHERE. This is not humanly possible.
    *************
    M*W: I searched until I found them. I'm not trying to imply that the myth of Christianity doesn't exist -- I am implying that the myth evolved over the millenia, and they are not what we were taught.
    *************
    water: The funny thing is, Medicine Woman, is that I am not a Christian, neither do I believe in what Christianity says. I only see that the belief system of Christianity is innerly consistent, and is ultimately not self-referential.

    The claims you make are scientifically not sound, as you are starting from the claim that you have proven a negative.
    *************
    M*W: I don't believe in the literal description of a creator god nor do I believe in the literal interpretation of the Son of God. I do believe, however, that early humans created the idea of a creator being who gave them life, helped grow their crops, and dealt lightning bolts to those who were bad. They feared and awed the sky gods and elements. This myth simply evolved to the Creator God=Sun and his only begotten Son=Sun of God=Sun. The interpretation has evolved. I am certainly no astrologer, but if you look at any zodiac, you will see the God-connection:

    Aries = Ram/Lamb (Lambs are born March/April (Jesus=The Lamb of God was born in March 7BC)

    Taurus = Bull (Bulls used for plowing/tilling April/May)

    Gemini = Twins (Castor & Pollux) twin stars May/June when they reaches their highest point in heaven

    Cancer = the Crab goes retrograde and appears to move backward in June/July

    Leo = Lion July/August (The lion will lie down with the lamb = conjunction of Leo and Aries)

    Virgo = Great Mother Earth, Blessed Virgin or Mary even Magdalen symbolize fertility and harvest August/September

    Libra = Balance, the autumnal equinox when days and nights are equal in September/October

    Scorpio = Scorpion fierce storms in the desert in October/November

    Sagittarius = Archer's arrow weakens the sun on its approach in November/December and days become shorter.

    Capricorn = Goat drags the sun down in December/January (aka known as Satan or the Devil brings in the end of the age (or antichrist)

    Aquarius = Water Bearer represents John the Baptist in January/February who comes before Pisces = Jesus
    Pisces = Fishes represent Jesus, the Fisher of Men in February/March
    *************
    water: Back then, when you did believe in God -- Have you turned to God then, to find the truth? Or did you try to find the truth *regardless* of God?
    *************
    M*W: Of course I turned to God first, because that was the natural place to turn for truth -- or so I thought!
    *************
    water: You, an empirical scientist, are saying this?
    *************
    M*W: Ultimately, there is no truth or knowledge outside the collective human mind.
    *************
    water: That doesn't follow. It would only be true if humans would have no free will -- and would thus be puppets to God.
    *************
    M*W: Humans, of course, have free will, but we live within the constraints of society. Therefore, it is within those constraints of society that we are able to avail ourselves of free will. The "constraints of society" can be described as Local, State, Federal and International governments; religions, churches and sects; schools, colleges and universities, etc.. You get the idea. We are all bound to one or more sources of constraint, and as long as we utilize our free will within those constraints, we are not questioned (or interrogated) about the use of our free will. However, there are no constraints on the mind and its ability to learn, and that is what I call free will. You say faith is a gift. I say free will is a gift. Therefore, faith can be a product of free will, but I just don't see where free will can be a product of faith.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  51. #50  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    101
    But I find it even more sad and shameful that you use those things people told you to now say there is no God.
    What is shamefull is how she got treated when she questioned it. The authorative church "assholes that they are" don't like anyone asking freaking questions that they don't have answers for.


    Then you didn't believe anway. You believed out of helplessness and powerlessness, not out receiving a calling from God, or out of a true desire of your heart.
    How the hell would you know? You don't know this woman, like you don't know your own convictions. You act as if you were some religious freak, than claim that you hold no religion, basically you don't know your own convictions, and try to pester in someone elses disbelief just because they do have a conviction. They believe in themselves.

    No. If it were God, you would not have wavered and left the way you did.
    Are you judge and jury?. How is it that you can claim that you have knowledge of another individuals past convictions?. Pure speculation on your part, and poor observation as well.



    Then you didn't believe anyway.
    Speculation, you dont know you are just farting in the wind!.



    Answers you were supposed to seek from God, you sought them from people. And then you put them against God.
    She sought answers from the "representatives of god" and they turned her away, "go away little girl, U shouldn't meddle were you don't belong" that kind of attitude would even turn a child away from religion.

    She seeked god in her own heart and found it to be empty. There's no god, and by the way:

    If you talk to God, you are praying;
    If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia.

    If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist;
    If God talks to you, you are a schizophrenic. Thomas S. Szasz

    M*W was not a schizopherenic she only sought were she was supposed to from her own church, only to be turned away and belittled.



    Shame on you.
    No!! shame on you for trying to use guilt trip, because someone does not believe the crap that you do!!.

    Godless.
    Don't count your money while your sitting on the table.
     

  52. #51  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Medicine Woman,



    Well, all I can say is that I've looked within Christianity, and I've looked without. There probably aren't many unturned stones in my research. I had hoped to find God and Jesus, and I did, but not where they were supposed to be.
    And this is all there can be said. It doesn't mean that there is no God and Jesus, or that Christianity is a lie.


    I am certainly no astrologer, but if you look at any zodiac, you will see the God-connection:

    Aries = Ram/Lamb (Lambs are born March/April (Jesus=The Lamb of God was born in March 7BC)

    Taurus = Bull (Bulls used for plowing/tilling April/May)

    Gemini = Twins (Castor & Pollux) twin stars May/June when they reaches their highest point in heaven

    Cancer = the Crab goes retrograde and appears to move backward in June/July

    Leo = Lion July/August (The lion will lie down with the lamb = conjunction of Leo and Aries)

    Virgo = Great Mother Earth, Blessed Virgin or Mary even Magdalen symbolize fertility and harvest August/September

    Libra = Balance, the autumnal equinox when days and nights are equal in September/October

    Scorpio = Scorpion fierce storms in the desert in October/November

    Sagittarius = Archer's arrow weakens the sun on its approach in November/December and days become shorter.

    Capricorn = Goat drags the sun down in December/January (aka known as Satan or the Devil brings in the end of the age (or antichrist)

    Aquarius = Water Bearer represents John the Baptist in January/February who comes before Pisces = Jesus
    Pisces = Fishes represent Jesus, the Fisher of Men in February/March
    Indeed, you are no astrologer. This list proves nothing.

    "Archer's arrow weakens the sun on its approach in November/December and days become shorter." -- and where is the connection to Christianity?


    M*W: Of course I turned to God first, because that was the natural place to turn for truth -- or so I thought!
    And what did God tell you?


    M*W: Ultimately, there is no truth or knowledge outside the collective human mind.
    And now it is "the collective human mind"? What happened to the self and the individual?


    M*W: Humans, of course, have free will, but we live within the constraints of society. Therefore, it is within those constraints of society that we are able to avail ourselves of free will. The "constraints of society" can be described as Local, State, Federal and International governments; religions, churches and sects; schools, colleges and universities, etc.. You get the idea. We are all bound to one or more sources of constraint, and as long as we utilize our free will within those constraints, we are not questioned (or interrogated) about the use of our free will.
    Once more, relegation of responsibility. Always someone else to blame, right?


    * * *


    Godless,


    What is shamefull is how she got treated when she questioned it. The authorative church "assholes that they are" don't like anyone asking freaking questions that they don't have answers for.
    This does not exonerate anyone that he decided he will not believe in God because people who speak about God were bad.


    How the hell would you know? You don't know this woman, like you don't know your own convictions. You act as if you were some religious freak, than claim that you hold no religion, basically you don't know your own convictions, and try to pester in someone elses disbelief just because they do have a conviction.
    You are just pissed because you can't pigenohole me.
    How you would love to see an -ism on me, wouldn't you?


    Are you judge and jury?. How is it that you can claim that you have knowledge of another individuals past convictions?. Pure speculation on your part, and poor observation as well.
    And you are in desperate search of allies.


    She sought answers from the "representatives of god" and they turned her away, "go away little girl, U shouldn't meddle were you don't belong" that kind of attitude would even turn a child away from religion.
    This is no excuse to turn away from God.


    She seeked god in her own heart and found it to be empty.
    You are saying her heart was empty?
    Also, since when does God reside in one's heart?


    M*W was not a schizopherenic she only sought were she was supposed to from her own church, only to be turned away and belittled.
    And? This says something about the people she was with. And about her it says that she was putting her trust in people, not in God. No wonder it all failed.


    No!! shame on you for trying to use guilt trip, because someone does not believe the crap that you do!!.
    Did you read what I said?

    Or are you just .... busy?
     

  53. #52  
    Forum Freshman Medicine*Woman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Right here in your face!
    Posts
    66
    water: And this is all there can be said. It doesn't mean that there is no God and Jesus, or that Christianity is a lie.
    *************
    M*W: Regardless of what I have to say or what you have to say, everyone has a right to his own search for truth. You claim to have found your truth in God and Jesus. I did not, so we'll never be on the same page about this.
    *************
    water: Indeed, you are no astrologer. This list proves nothing.

    "Archer's arrow weakens the sun on its approach in November/December and days become shorter." -- and where is the connection to Christianity?
    *************
    M*W: Christianity celebrates Jesus' birth on 25 December, but this is not when Jesus was "allegedly" born according to biblical scholars. There were some 16 other dying demigod saviors also born on 25 December... born of virgin mothers, too! I'm saying that all the bible stories are myths of myths of myths first passed down as oral tradition and then later retranslated into different languages based on the zodiac. This is not my theory. The myth of God and the Sun of God came from the zodiac as did the myths of Buddha, Mithras, to name a couple of the older dying demigod saviors of historical significance. ALL religions are based on sky properties, and ancient humans gave them names, dates and places of existence as if they were human beings.
    *************
    water: And what did God tell you?
    *************
    M*W: What I understood God to tell me at the time 20 years ago was that Christianity was evil, and I separated myself from it. But, of course, your perception of God tells you what you want to hear, too.
    *************
    water: And now it is "the collective human mind"? What happened to the self and the individual?
    *************
    M*W: Well, of course, the "collective human mind" wouldn't exist if it weren't for the self. Your point?
    *************
    water: Once more, relegation of responsibility. Always someone else to blame, right?
    *************
    M*W: I don't see how you think my choice of atheism is relegating responsibility. I chose atheism totally on my own from the knowledge I received from Christianity and from my subsequent research. I blame the church for lying to me (and to the entire world) for so long!
    *************
    water: This does not exonerate anyone that he decided he will not believe in God because people who speak about God were bad.
    *************
    M*W: Just because you believe in a god doesn't mean the rest of the world's population does! You are trying to force YOUR concept of God on the rest of us!
    *************
    water: You are just pissed because you can't pigenohole me. How you would love to see an -ism on me, wouldn't you?
    *************
    M*W: water, puh-leeze! I don't give a rat's ass what YOU believe! Don't flatter yourself like that!
    *************
    water: And you are in desperate search of allies.
    *************
    M*W: My allies know who they are.
    *************
    water: This is no excuse to turn away from God.
    *************
    M*W: Needing a god may work for you but not for me. You cannot even prove there is a God or there is a Jesus! What the bible says doesn't count as a reliable source of proof.
    *************
    water: And? This says something about the people she was with. And about her it says that she was putting her trust in people, not in God. No wonder it all failed.
    *************
    M*W: Again, you don't know the people I was with (they all were Christians). In fact, no one knew what was in my heart, because I didn't tell them. I knew I'd hear the same words from them as from you. There was no point in telling anyone at the time, because I made my own bed, and I'm quite comfortable lying in it. I have no regrets and no guilt, but I now have free will. And, since heaven is only going to be filled with gloating, hypocritical Christians, I wouldn't want to go there anyway. That would be hell.
    "Baby, you don't have to live like a refugee."

    ~ Tom Petty
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    101
    This does not exonerate anyone that he decided he will not believe in God because people who speak about God were bad.
    Who the hell needs an exoneration? God is a belief, one that does not believe need no excuse other than there's no emperical evidence, godism is part of mysticism, primitive mind, mythological stories taken too seriously. Faith is only the acceptance of other peoples assertions without any evidence.

    People who speak about god are not only bad, they have stagnated human kind for thousands of years, they have begun wars because of their incosistencies of different denominations. Who has suffered from the beliefs of these idiots, are the innocent people who are just trying to live peacefully.

    You are just pissed because you can't pigenohole me.
    How you would love to see an -ism on me, wouldn't you?
    Pissed? LOL!!LOL, no to me you are just an amusement of idiotitc mentality.



    And you are in desperate search of allies.
    Every atheist on every forum board through out the net are basically my allies, I"m not desperate. To me it seems you are desperate to find your own identity, your own conviction, your own set of little mystical beliefs.

    Why else would you come to a predominantely full of atheists kind of forum if not to learn why we think as we do. You can't convert no one here Water, and specially if you basically don't point out which ism you so try to sell.




    You are saying her heart was empty?
    Also, since when does God reside in one's heart?
    http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh500.sht

    Nuff said.



    And? This says something about the people she was with. And about her it says that she was putting her trust in people, not in God. No wonder it all failed.
    The people she was with?, Heck chick the girl traveled half the world of religious significanse, are these the kinds of bastards you speak off?. Well she didn't know it them, but she found out, most just live off the people's gullibility, when someone asks questions, they are told to just have faith, here's the collection plate, please donate. Dig deep in your pockets!. We rather have the kind that folds other than the kind that jingles. All churches are after the same thing Water, you are just too stuck up to see it. They are after the loot in your pocket!. That was what she realized.

    The decadence of the Roman Vatican, compared to the poverty whom they supposedly supposed to benefit was and is too much of a contrast. Fact is they are living off those poor folkes who world wide contribute millions yearly.



    Did you read what I said?
    Better yet, do you comprehend what I wrote?. Yes I read your triad bit for a woman you and I don't know, I read how you want to belittle because she don't believe as you do, I've read the discrimination you hold for those who believe different as you do, I say I read you better than what you thought you understood what you imply!.

    Godless.
    Don't count your money while your sitting on the table.
     

  55. #54  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    391
    Medicine Woman,


    You claim to have found your truth in God and Jesus.
    When have I claimed that?

    You constantly put words into my mouth.
    I will not speak with you any further because you do not listen.

    You only want to argue and you want to be right.

    I think you are confounded, or evil.


    The same goes for you, Godless.
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    101
    Truth hurts don't it?.



    Godless
    Don't count your money while your sitting on the table.
     

  57. #56  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    3
    And you were right for doing so.
     

  58. #57  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    NECRO THREAD WANTS BRAINS!!! 8 year old brains!
    seagypsy likes this.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    resurrection blues?
     

  60. #59  
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Wa
    Posts
    2,280
    Hmm... What would Jesus think about necromancers?
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
    -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.-
    Cat's Cradle.
     

  61. #60  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,103
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    Hmm... What would Jesus think about necromancers?
    I thought Jesus was a necromancer.

    Not just a necromancer, but a homonecromancer.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,211
    ..............
    so one of the local roman soldiers said:

    "Wow dude I hate to bother you at a time like this, but would you mind crossing yer legs?... I only brought 3 nails."
    seagypsy likes this.
     

  63. #62  
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Wa
    Posts
    2,280
    In the mythology, Jesus was a resurrectionist. A necromancer reanimates zombies.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
    -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.-
    Cat's Cradle.
     

  64. #63  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,103
    Quote Originally Posted by GiantEvil View Post
    In the mythology, Jesus was a resurrectionist. A necromancer reanimates zombies.
    I thought a zombie was a resurrected person. Like Jesus.

    Necromancy /ˈnɛkrɵˌmænsi/ is a claimed form of magic involving communication with the deceased – either by summoning their spirit as an apparition or raising them bodily – for the purpose of divination, imparting the means to foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge. The term may sometimes be used in a more general sense to refer to black magic or witchcraft.[1][2]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
     

  65. #64  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    2,051
    They left that part out of the bible...when Jesus appeared to the disciples after the resurrection, and Milla Jovovich, wearing skin tight leather, crashes through the window in the ceiling, and pumps Christ full of lead.
    Fixin' shit that ain't broke.
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    1,288
    Can God create a rock so heavy that he can't lift it?

    Can God create a being with free will that he can't control it?

    Same kind of questions, I feel.
     

  67. #66  
    Your Mama! GiantEvil's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Vancouver, Wa
    Posts
    2,280
    Zombies are definitely members of the Undead class. I'm going with contemporary mythology, World of Warcraft, Diablo II, Dungeons and Dragons, etc... Necromancy is the art of animating the Undead; Undead - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In the biblical mythology, Lazarus was resurrected but was not an Undead. It is just mythology, and the semantics change between periods and paradigms.
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
    -Kurt Vonnegut Jr.-
    Cat's Cradle.
     

  68. #67  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    A new record! YaY!

    (not really).

    Godspell if you have something interesting about the science of religion, preferable something related to archaeology, psychology of belief, effects on behavior, lifestyle, survival, or any number of things related to objective science...please start a new thread.

    Closed.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •