Notices
Results 1 to 68 of 68

Thread: Is islam really a good religion?

  1. #1 Is islam really a good religion? 
    Guest
    I would STRONGLY urge you all to read this article about the Saudi religious police - they prevented a number of female students from leaving a burning building because they were 'improperly dressed'
    they are dead now.


    THis is a BBC report on SAUDI media reports, so it ain't western propoganda.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1874471.stm

    Please feel free to comment.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Senior profahmfaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    328
    your post is really useless :-D
    the Saudi media has accused the police of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire .


    so there is no need to talk the police were just foolish like some people

    :-D :-D


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Is islam really a good religion? 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I would STRONGLY urge you all to read this article about the Saudi religious police - they prevented a number of female students from leaving a burning building because they were 'improperly dressed'
    they are dead now.


    THis is a BBC report on SAUDI media reports, so it ain't western propoganda.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1874471.stm

    Please feel free to comment.


    well that says it all, no common sense at all
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    your post is really useless :-D
    the Saudi media has accused the police of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire .
    I have told you I have been to Saudi, I have witnessed the brutality of these bastards, I saw a guy beaten unconscious with large sticks and dragged off by the Religious police.

    It's a different mob that investigate crime.

    You've got more chance of convincing that the world is flat than you have of convincing me 'Islam' is good. You still don't answer peoples questions, you just say things like 'you are wrong' 'I'm not talking to you anymore'
    How can you print smiley faces when we are talking about the deaths of yet more innocent women at the hands of islam, that is really sick. Perhaps the thought of mis-treating women turns muslims on? Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Islam is every bit as superstitious as Christianity and Judaism in my opinion.


    Islam about Women
    "And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them." (Surah 2:228)

    "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property" (4:34)

    "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way" (4:15)

    "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess. It is a decree of Allah for you." (4:24)

    Women must cover themselves in public. (33:59)

    Cruel and violent nature of islam
    Surah 2:190 says fight against those who fight against you, but don't start hostilities. Muslim nutjobs seem to have no problem with justifying their violence by saying "he started it" over stupid stuff (i.e. silly cartoons of a silly prophet). Perhaps its because the very next verse (2:191) reads, "slay them wherever ye find them" with regard to the infidels.

    War is "ordained" by allah and muslims should be willing to fight even if they don't want to. (2:216)

    And muslim nutjobs are encouraged to commit violent acts: "Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward." (4:74)

    Unbelievers, those that don't accept the superstitions of islam, are to be killed wherever found. (4:89, 91)

    Islam and Family Values
    Don't bother honoring family, even parents, if they don't believe in Islamic superstition: "Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers." (9:23)

    Don't pray for idolaters even if they're family. (9:113)

    If a strange man is about to be nailed in the kiester by a horny mob, don't let it happen! Even a strange man is worth more than your own daughter's virginity and innocence so let the mob rape her instead. Islam isn't the only superstition that subscribes to this bit of family value, since it's a part of the christian superstition as well. (11:78, 15:71)

    Silly imaginary friend first, children second (63:9)

    Wives and children are the enemy who just want to tempt you! (64:14-15)

    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,755
    "And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them."
    primetive

    "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property"
    pathetic

    Women must cover themselves in public.
    de-evolved

    i dont read more since its such a primetive culture. it hasent made progress in a long time
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    your post is really useless :-D
    the Saudi media has accused the police of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire .


    so there is no need to talk the police were just foolish like some people

    :-D :-D
    So let me ask you. Would you hope for any change in Saudi society in response to this event? You blame the police for getting carried away, so what should they have done? Escort all the girls out of the building before carrying out their beatings, or what?
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Guest
    Saudi is a pro-western moderate muslim country.......
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Saudi is a pro-western moderate muslim country.......
    pro-western - because that is where they sell their oil
    moderate - don't make me laugh. The Emirates are moderate, Malaysia is moderate, Algeria is moderate, Indonesia is moderate. Saudi is anything but moderate.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Guest
    There are worse.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    your post is really useless :-D
    the Saudi media has accused the police of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire .
    I have told you I have been to Saudi, I have witnessed the brutality of these bastards, I saw a guy beaten unconscious with large sticks and dragged off by the Religious police.

    It's a different mob that investigate crime.

    You've got more chance of convincing that the world is flat than you have of convincing me 'Islam' is good. You still don't answer peoples questions, you just say things like 'you are wrong' 'I'm not talking to you anymore'
    How can you print smiley faces when we are talking about the deaths of yet more innocent women at the hands of islam, that is really sick. Perhaps the thought of mis-treating women turns muslims on? Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?
    don't you think it is interesting? because USA police ever persecuted negro, we can say that nazarenes discriminate against negro?

    of course my example is a lack of persuasion. but i still want to say, the behavior of inhumanity and injustice covers every corner of every country and every religion. we can not simply blame it for one particular religion. ie, i don't think any of the religions will build a rule to persecute who believe in it. of course, i don't deny that some wrong elements are among islam. i just raise a doubt about the topic.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by montager
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by profahmfaw
    your post is really useless :-D
    the Saudi media has accused the police of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire .
    I have told you I have been to Saudi, I have witnessed the brutality of these bastards, I saw a guy beaten unconscious with large sticks and dragged off by the Religious police.

    It's a different mob that investigate crime.

    You've got more chance of convincing that the world is flat than you have of convincing me 'Islam' is good. You still don't answer peoples questions, you just say things like 'you are wrong' 'I'm not talking to you anymore'
    How can you print smiley faces when we are talking about the deaths of yet more innocent women at the hands of islam, that is really sick. Perhaps the thought of mis-treating women turns muslims on? Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?
    don't you think it is interesting? because USA police ever persecuted negro, we can say that nazarenes discriminate against negro?

    of course my example is a lack of persuasion. but i still want to say, the behavior of inhumanity and injustice covers every corner of every country and every religion. we can not simply blame it for one particular religion. ie, i don't think any of the religions will build a rule to persecute who believe in it. of course, i don't deny that some wrong elements are among islam. i just raise a doubt about the topic.

    of course theres discrimination in other countrys and cultures, but they are usually individuals rather than the govening factor of a country
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Freshman Bonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    32
    Wow, you're title really caught my eye! It says 'Is Islam a good religion?' and then your article states about an event that happened in Saudi in relation to ignorant people. It doesn't reflect the teachings of Quran even though some people misinterpret the wordings and use it to their advantage.. terrorists would be a fine example.

    Women are enforced to wear 'burka' - head to toe covering and 'hijab' - headscarves says the Quran but the holy book doesn't encourage acts of injustice apparently that's what they did clearly exemplifying men's control over women in Saudi and overexaggeration of the Islamic belief.

    SkinWalker:

    This is what I found ... quite amazingly contradictory to yours :P


    Rights and Honour Of Women

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will we quicken to happy life. (16:97)

    O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

    The Quran admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women..

    O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

    Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul.

    They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)

    Both are equally capable to guard their chastity fully [33:35]

    “Man has dominance over the woman” (Al – Baqarah 2:228). But if the element of subordination to the husband is not present in the wife, life becomes a trouble, so Quran asked women to remain obedient (Surah Al- Nisa 3:34).”

    Woman is ordered to look after the house, property, and children of her husband in his absence and also to keep herself chaste and pure. Husband, on the contrary, is required to provide sustenance to his wife. He is made responsible to provide her food, clothing, shelter and security.


    "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." - Prophet Mohammed


    Women occupy a special place in Islam. They cover themselves to avoid exploitation of her body, deprivation of her honor, and degradation of her soul! Their modesty and chastity is protected like precious gems. In order to secure herself, there are certain orders given by Quran which are not postulates of enslavement but ways to guard her. Thus, men and women do not mix socially in Islam, in order to protect their modesty. A Muslim woman is expected to avoid the company of a man who has no relation with her so as to avoid arousal of bestial desires.

    Here is the exact quote..

    "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when outside) : so that they should be known (as such) and not molested". (Surah, 59)


    bill:

    Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?

    Ugh, if they get abused then that gets hidden..

    And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to God together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful


    Now onto rest of the stuff..

    Quran and Rights For Life:

    “Who so slays a soul, not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land should be as if he has slain mankind altogether.”(5 :32)

    Apparently Bin Laden and his followers never read this part..

    “The greatest sins are to associate someone with Allah and to kill human beings.” - Prophet Mohammed

    ”Your lives and property are forbidden to one another till you meet your Lord on the day of resurrection.” - Prophet Mohammed

    Islam condemns taking one’s life in any way, whether as an act of retaliation. In such a case, one can go to the court of law for justice. Islam genuinely emphasizes the rights to life of man regardless of race or nation.

    “And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved the lives of all mankind.” (5:32)

    “Anyone who kills a believer deliberately, will receive as his reward (a sentence) to live in Hell forever. God will be angry with him and curse him and prepare dreadful torment for him.”(4:93)

    “And let not the hatred of others to you made you serve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety.” (5:8)

    Role of Family and Kin:

    "Show gratitude to Me as to thy parents."(31:14)

    “We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents.” (46:15)

    “Be kind to your parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility and say: “My Lord! Bestow on them thy mercy even as they cherished me in childhood.”(17:23 – 24)

    “Treat with kindness your parents and kindred and orphans and those in need.” (2:83)

    “In travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning.” (31 :14)

    Quran entitles parents to be recipients of an extremely kind attitude. Their necessities should be fulfilled, whether material or emotional. They should be dealt with in intense humility and care but if they are non-believers and want their child to follow their faith, one ought to decline their wish but kind treatment and care towards them should continue. To disobey, disregard or to ignore the feelings and emotions of parents has been characterized as a grievous sin.

    Almost the same as the Bible

    “Every time a dutiful child looks with affection and respect towards his/her parents, God writes the reward of an approved Hajj (Pilgrimage) on behalf of that person.”

    The Prophet said that the most heinous sins of the world are:
    To associate partners with Allah.
    To disobey parents.
    To give false evidence.



    ---------


    So in conclusion to all of this, I'm just giving most of you an opposite as to what was posted earlier.. and said...


    The bottom line is Islam shouldn't be the one to blame for people's wrong doings but the people themselves :P And if you ask 'Is Islam a good religion to follow?' well the rhetorical question would be, 'Are you pure enough to follow the religion?' Most of what I read, I got resentment towards the Muslim people, cause that's what media portrays everyday. Islamic Militants. Islamic this. Islamic that. Ever actually looked into the otherside of 9/11 story? It's funny how there is.. 'What ifs' being published.. day to day.. that it wasn't all Bin Laden but U.S. FBI's being involved as well.. What bothers me is how much hatred has built up towards this particular race and religion. People deported, hate crimes, shootings, racism - calling names and so on.. but if people actually bothered to pay attention at least once and said ..

    'Hey you know what, it's not the religion that !@#$z it up all the time.. it's the people who do stupidity and blames it on the book! Or media that just has hate towards Islamic people.. '

    If anyone says Islam is trash, then you do have to realize that Islam is somewhat derived from Christianity.

    That's about it :P Oh BTW, I'm not Muslim if anyone is curious but I do take the initiative to learn about the religion before judging it and not remain blinded as to what is seen on T.V. everyday where the screen flashes with Bin Laden's face and his death threats :P
    Representing the Pigloo Tribe ^^
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Senior profahmfaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    328
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    Wow, you're title really caught my eye! It says 'Is Islam a good religion?' and then your article states about an event that happened in Saudi in relation to ignorant people. It doesn't reflect the teachings of Quran even though some people misinterpret the wordings and use it to their advantage.. terrorists would be a fine example.

    Women are enforced to wear 'burka' - head to toe covering and 'hijab' - headscarves says the Quran but the holy book doesn't encourage acts of injustice apparently that's what they did clearly exemplifying men's control over women in Saudi and overexaggeration of the Islamic belief.

    SkinWalker:

    This is what I found ... quite amazingly contradictory to yours :P


    Rights and Honour Of Women

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will we quicken to happy life. (16:97)

    O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

    The Quran admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women..

    O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

    Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul.

    They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)

    Both are equally capable to guard their chastity fully [33:35]

    “Man has dominance over the woman” (Al – Baqarah 2:228). But if the element of subordination to the husband is not present in the wife, life becomes a trouble, so Quran asked women to remain obedient (Surah Al- Nisa 3:34).”

    Woman is ordered to look after the house, property, and children of her husband in his absence and also to keep herself chaste and pure. Husband, on the contrary, is required to provide sustenance to his wife. He is made responsible to provide her food, clothing, shelter and security.


    "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." - Prophet Mohammed


    Women occupy a special place in Islam. They cover themselves to avoid exploitation of her body, deprivation of her honor, and degradation of her soul! Their modesty and chastity is protected like precious gems. In order to secure herself, there are certain orders given by Quran which are not postulates of enslavement but ways to guard her. Thus, men and women do not mix socially in Islam, in order to protect their modesty. A Muslim woman is expected to avoid the company of a man who has no relation with her so as to avoid arousal of bestial desires.

    Here is the exact quote..

    "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when outside) : so that they should be known (as such) and not molested". (Surah, 59)


    bill:

    Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?

    Ugh, if they get abused then that gets hidden..

    And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to God together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful


    Now onto rest of the stuff..

    Quran and Rights For Life:

    “Who so slays a soul, not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land should be as if he has slain mankind altogether.”(5 :32)

    Apparently Bin Laden and his followers never read this part..

    “The greatest sins are to associate someone with Allah and to kill human beings.” - Prophet Mohammed

    ”Your lives and property are forbidden to one another till you meet your Lord on the day of resurrection.” - Prophet Mohammed

    Islam condemns taking one’s life in any way, whether as an act of retaliation. In such a case, one can go to the court of law for justice. Islam genuinely emphasizes the rights to life of man regardless of race or nation.

    “And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved the lives of all mankind.” (5:32)

    “Anyone who kills a believer deliberately, will receive as his reward (a sentence) to live in Hell forever. God will be angry with him and curse him and prepare dreadful torment for him.”(4:93)

    “And let not the hatred of others to you made you serve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety.” (5:8)

    Role of Family and Kin:

    "Show gratitude to Me as to thy parents."(31:14)

    “We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents.” (46:15)

    “Be kind to your parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility and say: “My Lord! Bestow on them thy mercy even as they cherished me in childhood.”(17:23 – 24)

    “Treat with kindness your parents and kindred and orphans and those in need.” (2:83)

    “In travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning.” (31 :14)

    Quran entitles parents to be recipients of an extremely kind attitude. Their necessities should be fulfilled, whether material or emotional. They should be dealt with in intense humility and care but if they are non-believers and want their child to follow their faith, one ought to decline their wish but kind treatment and care towards them should continue. To disobey, disregard or to ignore the feelings and emotions of parents has been characterized as a grievous sin.

    Almost the same as the Bible

    “Every time a dutiful child looks with affection and respect towards his/her parents, God writes the reward of an approved Hajj (Pilgrimage) on behalf of that person.”

    The Prophet said that the most heinous sins of the world are:
    To associate partners with Allah.
    To disobey parents.
    To give false evidence.



    ---------


    So in conclusion to all of this, I'm just giving most of you an opposite as to what was posted earlier.. and said...


    The bottom line is Islam shouldn't be the one to blame for people's wrong doings but the people themselves :P And if you ask 'Is Islam a good religion to follow?' well the rhetorical question would be, 'Are you pure enough to follow the religion?' Most of what I read, I got resentment towards the Muslim people, cause that's what media portrays everyday. Islamic Militants. Islamic this. Islamic that. Ever actually looked into the otherside of 9/11 story? It's funny how there is.. 'What ifs' being published.. day to day.. that it wasn't all Bin Laden but U.S. FBI's being involved as well.. What bothers me is how much hatred has built up towards this particular race and religion. People deported, hate crimes, shootings, racism - calling names and so on.. but if people actually bothered to pay attention at least once and said ..

    If anyone says Islam is trash, then you do have to realize that Islam is somewhat derived from Christianity.

    'Hey you know what, it's not the religion that !@#$z it up all the time.. it's the people who do stupidity and blames it on the book! Or media that just has hate towards Islamic people.. '


    That's about it :P Oh BTW, I'm not Muslim if anyone is curious but I do take the initiative to learn about the religion before judging it and not remain blinded as to what is seen on T.V. everyday where the screen flashes with Bin Laden's face and his death threats :P
    .

    That is really wonderfull you said what I could not say...thanks really for serving Islam this maybe a cause that will lead you to the paradise.. :-D :-D
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4
    of course theres discrimination in other countrys and cultures, but they are usually individuals rather than the govening factor of a country
    =====================================

    hmm......don't forget what USA was like before 1970s.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo

    SkinWalker:

    This is what I found ... quite amazingly contradictory to yours :P


    Rights and Honour Of Women

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    Nothing more, nothing less.
    "Nothing more, nothing less? Clearly, if the quotes I offered are also within the same "holy book," then said "holy book" is every bit as contradictory as the the texts of other Abrahamic cults. It can therefore be discarded as a source of truth in basing one's entire way of life on. We can value it for poetry and cultural value, but trash it for it's value as a "law."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    Wow, you're title really caught my eye! It says 'Is Islam a good religion?' and then your article states about an event that happened in Saudi in relation to ignorant people. It doesn't reflect the teachings of Quran even though some people misinterpret the wordings and use it to their advantage.. terrorists would be a fine example.

    Women are enforced to wear 'burka' - head to toe covering and 'hijab' - headscarves says the Quran but the holy book doesn't encourage acts of injustice apparently that's what they did clearly exemplifying men's control over women in Saudi and overexaggeration of the Islamic belief.

    SkinWalker:

    This is what I found ... quite amazingly contradictory to yours :P


    Rights and Honour Of Women

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Who so does that which is right, and believes, whether male or female, him or her will we quicken to happy life. (16:97)

    O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the dowry you have given them - except when they have become guilty of open lewdness. On the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If you take a dislike to them, it may be that you dislike something and Allah will bring about through it a great deal of good. (4:19)

    The Quran admonishes those men who oppress or ill-treat women..

    O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence Allah, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

    Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul.

    They (your wives) are your garment and you are a garment for them. (2:187)

    Both are equally capable to guard their chastity fully [33:35]

    “Man has dominance over the woman” (Al – Baqarah 2:228). But if the element of subordination to the husband is not present in the wife, life becomes a trouble, so Quran asked women to remain obedient (Surah Al- Nisa 3:34).”

    Woman is ordered to look after the house, property, and children of her husband in his absence and also to keep herself chaste and pure. Husband, on the contrary, is required to provide sustenance to his wife. He is made responsible to provide her food, clothing, shelter and security.


    "The best of you are they who behave best to their wives." - Prophet Mohammed


    Women occupy a special place in Islam. They cover themselves to avoid exploitation of her body, deprivation of her honor, and degradation of her soul! Their modesty and chastity is protected like precious gems. In order to secure herself, there are certain orders given by Quran which are not postulates of enslavement but ways to guard her. Thus, men and women do not mix socially in Islam, in order to protect their modesty. A Muslim woman is expected to avoid the company of a man who has no relation with her so as to avoid arousal of bestial desires.

    Here is the exact quote..

    "O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when outside) : so that they should be known (as such) and not molested". (Surah, 59)


    bill:

    Is that why they wear gowns from head to foot? to mask the scars of Islam?

    Ugh, if they get abused then that gets hidden..

    And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to God together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful


    Now onto rest of the stuff..

    Quran and Rights For Life:

    “Who so slays a soul, not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land should be as if he has slain mankind altogether.”(5 :32)

    Apparently Bin Laden and his followers never read this part..

    “The greatest sins are to associate someone with Allah and to kill human beings.” - Prophet Mohammed

    ”Your lives and property are forbidden to one another till you meet your Lord on the day of resurrection.” - Prophet Mohammed

    Islam condemns taking one’s life in any way, whether as an act of retaliation. In such a case, one can go to the court of law for justice. Islam genuinely emphasizes the rights to life of man regardless of race or nation.

    “And whosoever saves a life, it is as though he has saved the lives of all mankind.” (5:32)

    “Anyone who kills a believer deliberately, will receive as his reward (a sentence) to live in Hell forever. God will be angry with him and curse him and prepare dreadful torment for him.”(4:93)

    “And let not the hatred of others to you made you serve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety.” (5:8)

    Role of Family and Kin:

    "Show gratitude to Me as to thy parents."(31:14)

    “We have enjoined on man kindness to his parents.” (46:15)

    “Be kind to your parents. Whether one or both of them attain old age in thy life, say not to them a word of contempt, nor repel them, but address them in terms of honour. And out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility and say: “My Lord! Bestow on them thy mercy even as they cherished me in childhood.”(17:23 – 24)

    “Treat with kindness your parents and kindred and orphans and those in need.” (2:83)

    “In travail upon travail did his mother bear him, and in years twain was his weaning.” (31 :14)

    Quran entitles parents to be recipients of an extremely kind attitude. Their necessities should be fulfilled, whether material or emotional. They should be dealt with in intense humility and care but if they are non-believers and want their child to follow their faith, one ought to decline their wish but kind treatment and care towards them should continue. To disobey, disregard or to ignore the feelings and emotions of parents has been characterized as a grievous sin.

    Almost the same as the Bible

    “Every time a dutiful child looks with affection and respect towards his/her parents, God writes the reward of an approved Hajj (Pilgrimage) on behalf of that person.”

    The Prophet said that the most heinous sins of the world are:
    To associate partners with Allah.
    To disobey parents.
    To give false evidence.



    ---------


    So in conclusion to all of this, I'm just giving most of you an opposite as to what was posted earlier.. and said...


    The bottom line is Islam shouldn't be the one to blame for people's wrong doings but the people themselves :P And if you ask 'Is Islam a good religion to follow?' well the rhetorical question would be, 'Are you pure enough to follow the religion?' Most of what I read, I got resentment towards the Muslim people, cause that's what media portrays everyday. Islamic Militants. Islamic this. Islamic that. Ever actually looked into the otherside of 9/11 story? It's funny how there is.. 'What ifs' being published.. day to day.. that it wasn't all Bin Laden but U.S. FBI's being involved as well.. What bothers me is how much hatred has built up towards this particular race and religion. People deported, hate crimes, shootings, racism - calling names and so on.. but if people actually bothered to pay attention at least once and said ..

    'Hey you know what, it's not the religion that !@#$z it up all the time.. it's the people who do stupidity and blames it on the book! Or media that just has hate towards Islamic people.. '

    If anyone says Islam is trash, then you do have to realize that Islam is somewhat derived from Christianity.

    That's about it :P Oh BTW, I'm not Muslim if anyone is curious but I do take the initiative to learn about the religion before judging it and not remain blinded as to what is seen on T.V. everyday where the screen flashes with Bin Laden's face and his death threats :P


    I respect your views on it but mine differ, One of the main problems with Islam is that it isn't just a religion but it involves itself too much in politics and law also

    Maybe profahmfaw is a bad spokesman for the religion as he continually preaches intolerance of non-believers and doesn't respect peoples views of not following a religion. He also doesn't respect the wests views and rights to allow women to wear as little as they wish, choose if they want a same sex partner. In the west even if the main religion of the western countrys dont agree with same sex couples they still respect their rights and dont punish them physically for it

    My views are that freedom to choose is the most important thing, if you wish to leave a religion you have that right, and not be threatened by death for that decision

    Maybe Islam needs to sack its PR man(or woman)
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Freshman Bonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    32
    "Nothing more, nothing less? Clearly, if the quotes I offered are also within the same "holy book," then said "holy book" is every bit as contradictory as the the texts of other Abrahamic cults.
    When I said nothing more, nothing less I was referring to the fact that the quote ends there ..

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    ... without the continuation "and men are a degree above them." And I provided several other quotation that has a correlation with the idea of men and women being equal in Islamic society. Irony is both of our quotes have the same referencing.. so which one can be concluded to be more authentic and accurate? Mine or Yours? The info that is presented here is CLEARLY taken by biast writers who translated the scriptures either in favour of Islam or not. Hence, you can't jump to a conclusion that the book is contradictory.. it may have said one thing, but different people intrepret it differently based on their beliefs :P


    Maybe profahmfaw is a bad spokesman for the religion as he continually preaches intolerance of non-believers and doesn't respect peoples views of not following a religion. He also doesn't respect the wests views and rights to allow women to wear as little as they wish, choose if they want a same sex partner. In the west even if the main religion of the western countrys dont agree with same sex couples they still respect their rights and dont punish them physically for it
    It's pretty clear that he has been taught and raised under a strict and rigid customs of Islam. It's not surprising, if he does respond this way. When you say West, I'm presuming you mean a Non-Muslim people, because no matter where they go, the tradition is still preserved and practised across the globe in most cases. In terms of punishment, that depends on conservative the government really is. I honestly think, countries in the Middle-East takes a bit overboard.. that's not the Quran speaking, more like greedy politicians tyranny in the country.
    Representing the Pigloo Tribe ^^
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    "Nothing more, nothing less? Clearly, if the quotes I offered are also within the same "holy book," then said "holy book" is every bit as contradictory as the the texts of other Abrahamic cults.
    When I said nothing more, nothing less I was referring to the fact that the quote ends there ..

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    ... without the continuation "and men are a degree above them." And I provided several other quotation that has a correlation with the idea of men and women being equal in Islamic society. Irony is both of our quotes have the same referencing.. so which one can be concluded to be more authentic and accurate? Mine or Yours? The info that is presented here is CLEARLY taken by biast writers who translated the scriptures either in favour of Islam or not. Hence, you can't jump to a conclusion that the book is contradictory.. it may have said one thing, but different people intrepret it differently based on their beliefs :P


    Maybe profahmfaw is a bad spokesman for the religion as he continually preaches intolerance of non-believers and doesn't respect peoples views of not following a religion. He also doesn't respect the wests views and rights to allow women to wear as little as they wish, choose if they want a same sex partner. In the west even if the main religion of the western countrys dont agree with same sex couples they still respect their rights and dont punish them physically for it
    It's pretty clear that he has been taught and raised under a strict and rigid customs of Islam. It's not surprising, if he does respond this way. When you say West, I'm presuming you mean a Non-Muslim people, because no matter where they go, the tradition is still preserved and practised across the globe in most cases. In terms of punishment, that depends on conservative the government really is. I honestly think, countries in the Middle-East takes a bit overboard.. that's not the Quran speaking, more like greedy politicians tyranny in the country.

    yeah, countrys like afghanistan under the taliban were terrible with human rights issues. But they should be gone soon and the new democratic govenment should ease things, its a bit of a mixture(in my view :wink: )of religion and politics

    I feel that the moderate, more layed back muslims voices never get heard enough, so offcourse its going to taint your views a bit, but not totally :wink:
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Junior Bettina's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    268
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I feel that the moderate, more layed back muslims voices never get heard enough, so offcourse its going to taint your views a bit, but not totally :wink:
    Because their afraid and rightfully so....

    Bettina
    Emotionally based life form. The Fword will get you on my ignore list.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bettina
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    I feel that the moderate, more layed back muslims voices never get heard enough, so offcourse its going to taint your views a bit, but not totally :wink:
    Because their afraid and rightfully so....

    Bettina

    very true, but until they do the more extreme views are the ones that are the public voices of their religion(and therefore the ones everyone remembers). I think in western countrys they have/should have less to fear than an islamic country because of the protection they could recieve
    :-D
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Freshman Bonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    32
    I don't think they would receive much protection after the 9/11 incident, London Bombings, attempted bombing in Heathrow and so on.. infact most of them involved are being arrested and deported leaving behind a huge stigma upon the Islamic society.

    In Islamic countries it's physical abuse then in Western countries, it's racial discrimination and hate crimes. All the more to reason to be opressed and intimidated to speak their mind..
    Representing the Pigloo Tribe ^^
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    I don't think they would receive much protection after the 9/11 incident, London Bombings, attempted bombing in Heathrow and so on.. infact most of them involved are being arrested and deported leaving behind a huge stigma upon the Islamic society.

    In Islamic countries it's physical abuse then in Western countries, it's racial discrimination and hate crimes. All the more to reason to be opressed and intimidated to speak their mind..

    I honestly dont think thats the case moderate muslims voice would be welcome in the uk and to my knowledge the only to be deported have been illegal immigrants with no right to be here. There are over 1million muslims in the uk officially and its been a tiny tiny percentage that has been arrested but it looks like more because the press report every incident(including a muslim cabbie who refused a blindman dog in his cab, with what i mean is that tiny story made national newspaper)


    The point im making is muslims are encouraged to assimilate with the rest of the uk on one hand, as the hindu and sikhs have and put on massive festivals to invite all races and religions and to join the police etc to play their part and make the police force a reflection of the cultures in britain

    And then some out spoken muslim(think his names omar bakri) has told all muslims to leave the police as its not allowed for muslims to join non-muslim forces and these imams and leaders are trying to keep the muslim people from assimilating

    At present i dont believe our country is a racist country(as a whole) and britain is probably one of the most widely cosmipolitan countrys(especially the two major cities london and birmingham)

    But if all the muslim ranks are closed to the outside world, how can things get any better?
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Freshman Bonzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    32
    At present i dont believe our country is a racist country(as a whole) and britain is probably one of the most widely cosmipolitan countrys(especially the two major cities london and birmingham)
    .. which is why the Queen did a national broadcast once before in relation to multiculturism and diversity and as to how places in U.K. should be embrace it. I don't have specific details about it, sadly. Oh and let's name all the riots that has happened in the past due to racism and unfair treatment towards lower class people.. :P

    I'm not saying racism is daily bread in U.K., I'm just saying it exists and it can't be ignored.


    You know something, all of this made me think..

    WHAT IF it wasn't those school female students BUT Harem girls in their brothel with their lords, would the 'religious' police actually rescue them? Or let them die?
    Representing the Pigloo Tribe ^^
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    At present i dont believe our country is a racist country(as a whole) and britain is probably one of the most widely cosmipolitan countrys(especially the two major cities london and birmingham)
    .. which is why the Queen did a national broadcast once before in relation to multiculturism and diversity and as to how places in U.K. should be embrace it. I don't have specific details about it, sadly. Oh and let's name all the riots that has happened in the past due to racism and unfair treatment towards lower class people.. :P

    I'm not saying racism is daily bread in U.K., I'm just saying it exists and it can't be ignored.


    You know something, all of this made me think..

    WHAT IF it wasn't those school female students BUT Harem girls in their brothel with their lords, would the 'religious' police actually rescue them? Or let them die?

    Of course there isn't a country in the world where racism doesn't exist, but the uks not at the top or bottom of any list of them :-D
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzo
    "Nothing more, nothing less? Clearly, if the quotes I offered are also within the same "holy book," then said "holy book" is every bit as contradictory as the the texts of other Abrahamic cults.
    When I said nothing more, nothing less I was referring to the fact that the quote ends there ..

    “And they (women) have rights similar to those of men over them in kindness” (2:228)

    ... without the continuation "and men are a degree above them." And I provided several other quotation that has a correlation with the idea of men and women being equal in Islamic society. Irony is both of our quotes have the same referencing.. so which one can be concluded to be more authentic and accurate? Mine or Yours?
    Good point. I would agree that either my references are adding information or your references are deleting it.

    Perhaps this version is credible?
    Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da‘wah and Guidance

    Or, perhaps, the Electronic Text Center of the University of Virginia?

    And, if you speak German, Theology.de says, "Und die geschiedenen Frauen sollen in bezug auf sich selbst drei Reinigungen zuwarten; und es ist ihnen nicht erlaubt, das zu verhehlen, was Allah in ihrem Schoß erschaffen hat, wenn sie an Allah und an den Jüngsten Tag glauben; und ihre Gatten haben das größere Recht, sie währenddessen zurückzunehmen, wenn sie eine Aussöhnung wünschen. Und wie die Frauen Pflichten haben, so haben sie auch Rechte, nach dem Brauch; doch haben die Männer einen gewissen Vorrang vor ihnen; und Allah ist allmächtig, allweise.

    In case you should be suspect of Theology.de as a non-Muslim, Ahmadiyya Muslim Gemeinde Deutschland says the same thing -though they have the verse number as "229."

    But each of the translations at Sacred Texts Online include the information your source, curiously, omits. They each say men are "a degree/step above" or, as with the German version above, that men take precedence over, women.

    Clearly Islam is every bit as misogynistic as Christianity. To argue otherwise when faced with the epigraphic evidence presented is intellectually dishonest.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Jakarta, Indonesia
    Posts
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Saudi is a pro-western moderate muslim country.......
    pro-western - because that is where they sell their oil
    moderate - don't make me laugh. The Emirates are moderate, Malaysia is moderate, Algeria is moderate, Indonesia is moderate. Saudi is anything but moderate.
    I'm from Indonesia, it used to be moderate here, but now... small groups starting to be fanatic.....
    CRUSADER 10th GENERATION
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    I'd really like to get back on topic, because the proposed question: "Is Islam a good religion?" is a little vague, is the question addressed to non-believers? If so then of course it isn't -to the non-believers- because it could result in them being killed.

    I think the question should be "Why should Islam be a good religion to the non-believers?" An easy answer would be so that it wouldn't scare them from itself to eventually convert them someday. The point of proposing this new question is to highlight the possibility of Islam being the way of life God asks for. And if so - why should it be questioned!?

    In my eyes:
    Islam is perfect, the laws it outlines can provide a perfect life for everyone on earth.

    Humans are perfect, we are here to be judged, we are doing exactly as we are ment to be doing. We are ment to make mistakes, we are ment to sin, we are ment to believe in no God if desired. If not then there would be no point of having a HELL.

    To conclude
    - Islam is only perfect in our lives if WE allow it to be.
    - Islam is neither a good or bad religion, because it should be the only religion (not ignorance, just frustration)

    BTW religions preaching TOTAL PEACE (whatever happens in life) are very easily destoryed because they do not have that element of self-defence to protect its people and its own existence < of which Islam is being critised for having.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Guest
    Jag,

    You have contradicted your self in that one, several times. When will you understand that those of us who do not believe in religion are simply NOT afraid of Islam?

    Religion is simply benign without people and malignant with them. What people fear are idiots proclaiming to be doing god's work by killing others and using religion as an excuse.

    Just think about it for a minute, do you beleive your god would offer a place in paradise for a guy who blows up a bus full of school children?
    If he does, and then rewards them by allowing them to engage their sexual fantasies on 'exotic' boys and girls, then god himself is evil which is why your religion is NOT universally accepted. What you should be doing is convincing extremist muslims that they are harming your cause.
    All the while these extremists claim to be doing 'god's work' many religious people will steer away from it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Your only pointing out the extreme acts of a few people, just because they say it is in the name of God, does not make it so. Your mind is tainted with the impression that muslims (inc. myself) praise God in order to carry out sexual fantasies in heaven with children - You really are pathetic and disgusting. The only reason I speak here on this forum is to create friends and better the name of Islam in order to invite them to the truth. But it is people like you that are not needed here, if you want to challenge Islam then please do so, but not in the ignorant and disrespectful manner in which you do so. Go do your damn research.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Guest
    Which ever way we challenge Islam you either say "you do not understand it" or you insult us. You do nothing to promote Islam.
    What you are actually looking for is a debate with other Muslims, in a sort of mutual admiration society, you ridicule anyone who points out your religion is flawed.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Your only pointing out the extreme acts of a few people, just because they say it is in the name of God, does not make it so. Your mind is tainted with the impression that muslims (inc. myself) praise God in order to carry out sexual fantasies in heaven with children - You really are pathetic and disgusting. The only reason I speak here on this forum is to create friends and better the name of Islam in order to invite them to the truth. But it is people like you that are not needed here, if you want to challenge Islam then please do so, but not in the ignorant and disrespectful manner in which you do so. Go do your damn research.

    i mean this in a respectful way. But did mohammed not marry a six year old and comsumate the marriage at 9? what name would he be given now?

    Explain who the black eyed virgins are in "heaven" and the use of "pretty men" or "Ghilman" in heaven?

    does the few people who give your religion a bad name included the most important imam in australia, who says women deserve rape, and say its their fault for rape if they dont cover up

    Do you agree that this is a discusting thing to say


    Do you believe its ok to hide terrorists in your community if they attack the west?

    Do you think all women are equal to men?

    Do you think that you could actually change someones opinions enough to join your religion?
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Which ever way we challenge Islam you either say "you do not understand it" or you insult us
    When have I said I do not understand, I understand a lot, not everything, but a lot. And when have I insulted you, and please compare it to the insult you threw at my religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    i mean this in a respectful way. But did mohammed not marry a six year old and comsumate the marriage at 9? what name would he be given now?

    Explain who the black eyed virgins are in "heaven" and the use of "pretty men" or "Ghilman" in heaven?
    It is seen that Aisha couldn't have been more than ten when the marrage was comsumated, although I see no problem because they are bound by marriage. As for the Ghilman, as I said before my life goal isn't to have sex children, its to avoid hell. BTW I'd love to be forever young.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    does the few people who give your religion a bad name included the most important imam in australia, who says women deserve rape, and say its their fault for rape if they dont cover up

    Do you agree that this is a discusting thing to say
    I agree with this Imam, you shouldn't really be shocked, its what some people in the non-religious society say too.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you believe its ok to hide terrorists in your community if they attack the west?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you think all women are equal to men?
    Women are equal to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you think that you could actually change someones opinions enough to join your religion?
    Only some people, to be honest I've done it before. He was a christian who followed the Bible, I argued with him (in a sutle manner) and after 1-2 months he agreed that Islam was the truth. He isn't a strong a muslim as I but he is still a convert and a muslim.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Guest
    What ever way we say your religion is bad you take it as an insult against your religion - thats crazy man!

    I think time travel is crap, but those who believe in it don't see that as an insult. Islam is just a book, how can you insult a book?

    If I say the qu'ran is a load of crap is that an insult?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Which ever way we challenge Islam you either say "you do not understand it" or you insult us
    When have I said I do not understand, I understand a lot, not everything, but a lot. And when have I insulted you, and please compare it to the insult you threw at my religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    i mean this in a respectful way. But did mohammed not marry a six year old and comsumate the marriage at 9? what name would he be given now?

    Explain who the black eyed virgins are in "heaven" and the use of "pretty men" or "Ghilman" in heaven?
    It is seen that Aisha couldn't have been more than ten when the marrage was comsumated, although I see no problem because they are bound by marriage. As for the Ghilman, as I said before my life goal isn't to have sex children, its to avoid hell. BTW I'd love to be forever young.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    does the few people who give your religion a bad name included the most important imam in australia, who says women deserve rape, and say its their fault for rape if they dont cover up

    Do you agree that this is a discusting thing to say
    I agree with this Imam, you shouldn't really be shocked, its what some people in the non-religious society say too.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you believe its ok to hide terrorists in your community if they attack the west?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you think all women are equal to men?
    Women are equal to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Do you think that you could actually change someones opinions enough to join your religion?
    Only some people, to be honest I've done it before. He was a christian who followed the Bible, I argued with him (in a sutle manner) and after 1-2 months he agreed that Islam was the truth. He isn't a strong a muslim as I but he is still a convert and a muslim.


    So you dont see a problem with sex with children, women derserve to be raped if their not wearing head wear and you would harbour a terrorist. In my opinion you are just as much an extremist as someone strapping a bomb to themselves and i have lost total respect in anything you say for this. I thought id give you the benefit of the doubt. But now youve shown your true colours again

    so now i can say "mohammed was a peodophile" with pride at knowing its right

    Im not suprised the christian you converted isn't a strong one, he'll be back after a while when he realises how pathetic it is(unless youve already threatened to kill him if he does, i think thats the usual thing to do isn't it?)

    the point you made about hiding a terrorist, isn't that a way of agree with his actions? surely thats not in the peaceful koran is it. Thats aiding and abetting a terrorist and how does that go down with islam? i thought islam didn't agree with killing women and children

    How do you explain the womans fault for being raped? do muslim men have no self control? How is rape not their fault? isnt lust a sin in islam?

    On that point, no-one in the west with an IQ over that of a pig would agree with it. The rapists are always to blame.

    Stop living in the dark ages
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    What ever way we say your religion is bad you take it as an insult against your religion - thats crazy man!

    I think time travel is crap, but those who believe in it don't see that as an insult. Islam is just a book, how can you insult a book?

    If I say the qu'ran is a load of crap is that an insult?
    I think you've hit a very crucial point in relations between muslims and non-muslims.

    You see I once truly believed in time travel (aged 10 or so), and if someone said they thought it was a load of crap, I'd laugh it off (or whatever subject), but if someone spoke about the Qur'an, it is a totally different matter. And this is what the non-muslims MUST understand, its not just a belief, its a reality to us. We dont think it is right-we know it is (or as you'd say, we think we know its right). Its worse than insulting the muslim persons mother, 1000 times over. Its passion, like the love you would feel for someone close to you, but its part of you - which is why they call it spiritual. Openly disbelieving people are stepping on this passion, which is why I am on the sides of the retaliating 'terrorists'. I dont call for any more attacks on the west, but I certainly would not condem them if any occured.

    Hope that helped.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    What ever way we say your religion is bad you take it as an insult against your religion - thats crazy man!

    I think time travel is crap, but those who believe in it don't see that as an insult. Islam is just a book, how can you insult a book?

    If I say the qu'ran is a load of crap is that an insult?
    I think you've hit a very crucial point in relations between muslims and non-muslims.

    You see I once truly believed in time travel (aged 10 or so), and if someone said they thought it was a load of crap, I'd laugh it off (or whatever subject), but if someone spoke about the Qur'an, it is a totally different matter. And this is what the non-muslims MUST understand, its not just a belief, its a reality to us. We dont think it is right-we know it is (or as you'd say, we think we know its right). Its worse than insulting the muslim persons mother, 1000 times over. Its passion, like the love you would feel for someone close to you, but its part of you - which is why they call it spiritual. Openly disbelieving people are stepping on this passion, which is why I am on the sides of the retaliating 'terrorists'. I dont call for any more attacks on the west, but I certainly would not condem them if any occured.

    Hope that helped.

    But isn't this your problem if you offended, not the non-muslim speaking his free mind.

    Its something you have to deal with. you have to deal with critisism and not blow it out of proportion

    your critisising the wests way of life and when the tables are turned on your way of life you dont like it. Thats double standards
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    You see I once truly believed in time travel (aged 10 or so), and if someone said they thought it was a load of crap, I'd laugh it off (or whatever subject), but if someone spoke about the Qur'an, it is a totally different matter. And this is what the non-muslims MUST understand, its not just a belief, its a reality to us. We dont think it is right-we know it is (or as you'd say, we think we know its right). Its worse than insulting the muslim persons mother, 1000 times over. Its passion, like the love you would feel for someone close to you, but its part of you - which is why they call it spiritual.
    Psychology says you are thoroughly brainwashed. In a way similar to Nazism.

    Openly disbelieving people are stepping on this passion, which is why I am on the sides of the retaliating 'terrorists'. I dont call for any more attacks on the west, but I certainly would not condem them if any occured.

    Hope that helped.
    Translation: You're so brainwashed you'd happily allow someone else to do the killing for you. Without realizing it's the exact same as doing it yourself.

    You've just proven why muslims aren't peaceful, CAN'T be peaceful, and will inevitably need to be quelled if they don't sit down and shut up. You have done no favors for your beliefs, and have in fact lead people to categorize your whole belief in general as idiotic. Pat yourself on the back, you've just influenced every reader on the forum towards never accepting anything a muslim says.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    You see I once truly believed in time travel (aged 10 or so), and if someone said they thought it was a load of crap, I'd laugh it off (or whatever subject), but if someone spoke about the Qur'an, it is a totally different matter. And this is what the non-muslims MUST understand, its not just a belief, its a reality to us. We dont think it is right-we know it is (or as you'd say, we think we know its right). Its worse than insulting the muslim persons mother, 1000 times over. Its passion, like the love you would feel for someone close to you, but its part of you - which is why they call it spiritual.
    Psychology says you are thoroughly brainwashed. In a way similar to Nazism.

    Openly disbelieving people are stepping on this passion, which is why I am on the sides of the retaliating 'terrorists'. I dont call for any more attacks on the west, but I certainly would not condem them if any occured.

    Hope that helped.
    Translation: You're so brainwashed you'd happily allow someone else to do the killing for you. Without realizing it's the exact same as doing it yourself.

    You've just proven why muslims aren't peaceful, CAN'T be peaceful, and will inevitably need to be quelled if they don't sit down and shut up. You have done no favors for your beliefs, and have in fact lead people to categorize your whole belief in general as idiotic. Pat yourself on the back, you've just influenced every reader on the forum towards never accepting anything a muslim says.

    Its people like this who have made me doubt EVERY muslim(along with muslim questionaires) That moderate muslims dont exist. Theres the do-ers of terrorism and the ones who morally and finacially back them up and are willing to hide and protect them, which in my eyes make them just as guilty as the terrorists themselves
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Guest
    What's worse is that muslims lie more than christian websites apparently. studies muslims have posted on this forum prove that. That and the majority of these "studies" published in muslim communities are all insanely biased.

    So, why then should muslims be trusted or their beliefs be trusted, when they lie more than those they oppose? Or are you so brainwashed you believe their lies are "truth"? No, wait, christians do so why shouldn't you.

    I find absolutely NO reason to trust anything a muslim says. In fact, I'd rather be skeptic about it and actually look it up. Thanks to muslims on this forum especially. You're now ranked lower than christian fundamentalists on the trust-level. And that's a bad thing.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Guest
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

    good link, this comments quite interesting

    As early as 1927, psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud categorized religious dogma as mere projections of childlike wishes and claimed that "mankind will overcome this neurotic phase"; by 1939, Freud had characterized all religions as mass delusions.
    heres another link(off that one which is also a good read

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    heres another thing to add to the "is islam a good religion" question.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/6112564.stm


    From other interviews, the fallout between the husband and wife was because he didn't like how she imbraced the western culture as did his daughters and some see this as another "mercy killing"

    There have been so many of these "mercy killings" from in-breds bringing their third world religions to the civilised world


    Also on a different subject, can somebody explain why playing Chess is not allowed by islam in the Haraam?

    http://www.shirazi.org.uk/haram.htm


    This is very confusing..... playing chess is not allowed, but killing you wife and children is seen as a "mercy killing" if they stray to close to western life
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

    Psychology says you are thoroughly brainwashed. In a way similar to Nazism.

    Translation: You're so brainwashed you'd happily allow someone else to do the killing for you. Without realizing it's the exact same as doing it yourself.
    Simple 'no' to being brainwashed. If anyone has been brainwashed (actually very likely), then it is yourself. Who is doing the brainwashing? The environment, the people and all forms of media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    You've just proven why muslims aren't peaceful, CAN'T be peaceful, and will inevitably need to be quelled if they don't sit down and shut up. You have done no favors for your beliefs, and have in fact lead people to categorize your whole belief in general as idiotic. Pat yourself on the back, you've just influenced every reader on the forum towards never accepting anything a muslim says.
    I see a lot of misunderstood ignorance from you. Re-explaining Islam to you in simple term just doesn't seem to work, simply for the fact that YOU think YOU know how to live EVERYONEs life on Earth. Well it doesn't work like that. Life is a complex issue, Psychology is man's view on it. You except this human understanding, I can not.

    CONCLUSION: Islam is a good 'religion' if one truly believes in it. A human's emotional tolerance of its practices should not demeen what it asks for. A perfect world is a reward.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

    Psychology says you are thoroughly brainwashed. In a way similar to Nazism.

    Translation: You're so brainwashed you'd happily allow someone else to do the killing for you. Without realizing it's the exact same as doing it yourself.
    Simple 'no' to being brainwashed. If anyone has been brainwashed (actually very likely), then it is yourself. Who is doing the brainwashing? The environment, the people and all forms of media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    You've just proven why muslims aren't peaceful, CAN'T be peaceful, and will inevitably need to be quelled if they don't sit down and shut up. You have done no favors for your beliefs, and have in fact lead people to categorize your whole belief in general as idiotic. Pat yourself on the back, you've just influenced every reader on the forum towards never accepting anything a muslim says.
    I see a lot of misunderstood ignorance from you. Re-explaining Islam to you in simple term just doesn't seem to work, simply for the fact that YOU think YOU know how to live EVERYONEs life on Earth. Well it doesn't work like that. Life is a complex issue, Psychology is man's view on it. You except this human understanding, I can not.

    CONCLUSION: Islam is a good 'religion' if one truly believes in it. A human's emotional tolerance of its practices should not demeen what it asks for. A perfect world is a reward.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht

    Psychology says you are thoroughly brainwashed. In a way similar to Nazism.

    Translation: You're so brainwashed you'd happily allow someone else to do the killing for you. Without realizing it's the exact same as doing it yourself.
    Simple 'no' to being brainwashed. If anyone has been brainwashed (actually very likely), then it is yourself. Who is doing the brainwashing? The environment, the people and all forms of media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    You've just proven why muslims aren't peaceful, CAN'T be peaceful, and will inevitably need to be quelled if they don't sit down and shut up. You have done no favors for your beliefs, and have in fact lead people to categorize your whole belief in general as idiotic. Pat yourself on the back, you've just influenced every reader on the forum towards never accepting anything a muslim says.
    I see a lot of misunderstood ignorance from you. Re-explaining Islam to you in simple term just doesn't seem to work, simply for the fact that YOU think YOU know how to live EVERYONEs life on Earth. Well it doesn't work like that. Life is a complex issue, Psychology is man's view on it. You except this human understanding, I can not.

    CONCLUSION: Islam is a good 'religion' if one truly believes in it. A human's emotional tolerance of its practices should not demeen what it asks for. A perfect world is a reward.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Guest
    Jagoman,

    calm down, you are begining to repeat yourself.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    thats cause I keep getting the same question, they just dont except my answer.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Guest
    Well look at it this way, each to their own as we say. You are happy with your religion and your beliefs, we are happy without a religion, eventually when we die, nobody will be dissappointed. Be happy and don't take it all to heart.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    agreed...but then there'd be no debate :P
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    3,812
    Is Islam a really good religion? No, but neither is any religion.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Simple 'no' to being brainwashed. If anyone has been brainwashed (actually very likely), then it is yourself. Who is doing the brainwashing? The environment, the people and all forms of media.
    How am I brainwashed? You seem to be an serious-case faith sufferer, so yeah, give proof that I'm brainwashed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    I see a lot of misunderstood ignorance from you. Re-explaining Islam to you in simple term just doesn't seem to work, simply for the fact that YOU think YOU know how to live EVERYONEs life on Earth. Well it doesn't work like that. Life is a complex issue, Psychology is man's view on it. You except this human understanding, I can not.
    Yeah, see, the fact you can't even formulate a proper sentence means you shouldn't be throwing phrases like "ignorance from you" out there. I need not islam explained, since it's not the definition but the ACTIONS of a religion that define it.

    As for living everyones life on earth: I do a hell of a lot better at it then most people. So change "everyone" to "most people".
    Also, by the way, the word you want is "accept". I do not accept (and with how stupid it is, never will) by-the-book psychology. I only end up learning specific terms used or how utterly rediculas psychologists think. If I accept "mans" view on it, then I'm accepting my own view (which is human understanding I assume).

    I believe your problem is believing humans cannot understand it, nor solve it. I'm sorry to say there isn't a set barrier there. What I find ironic is that the entire reason the proccess is being slowed...is people like you. Har.

    CONCLUSION: Islam is a good 'religion' if one truly believes in it. A human's emotional tolerance of its practices should not demeen what it asks for. A perfect world is a reward.
    No, see, sorry. Your conclusion is wrong. Islam suffers from heavy brainwashing (especially in it's original language) due to the ease of deception in it's words. As the forum users here have demonstrated time and again, nothing the qur'an says prediction wise or science wise holds much weight. However look at the UNEDUCATED majority that it targets. Naturally people will believe that tripe in a seconds notice.

    No religion is "good", simply because "true belief" leads to many psychology problems. Specifically the "Faith Sufferer" syndrom! It leads many countries to war, develops extremists, dampens the education effort, attempts to limit science, etc.
    And a humans emotional tolerance depends on a few factors. One of thim his/her religious beliefs. For example, JW's (being conditioned from birth half the time) have thee most tolerance I'll ever see. Assuming by "tolerance" you meant "lack of violence". Islamists, on the other hand, are by far the most violent and undereducated I've ever seen.

    So, yeah, my insentive on being converted just got destroyed. The "reward" of a perfect world is fine and all...but you gotta prove it'll happen to begin with. No use believing in a lie.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    There you go again with your assumptions. Uneducated? yes some muslims are, and some aren't, some christians are, and some aren't, some athiests are, and some aren't. Islam is not as much targeting these 'uneducated' as athiests are, athiests give the easy answer - ignore. While it still educates, as does Islam. Islam promotes the advancement of knowledge, why should it not. It targets those who are educated to strengthen its existence. To say Islam targets the uneducated, is to say Islam targets humanity itself.

    As for the brain-washing. Well in a way we are all brain-washed, by what we do and by who and what we are surrounded by. You may say I am brain-washed by the promise of a happy afterlife, but I would say you are brain-washed by thinking you can have all the freedoms that come with life without dealing with any consequences.

    lie, it is not.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    There you go again with your assumptions.
    My "assumptions" don't generalize absolutely every person in existence or being. I targeted a specific group of which is fairly obvious.

    Uneducated? yes some muslims are, and some aren't, some christians are, and some aren't, some athiests are, and some aren't.
    Actually, it isn't SOME. I gave that "assumption" based on where the majority of muslims in the world live. And here's a fact from about.com

    Which country is home to the most Muslims?
    The world's fourth most populous country has the largest population of Muslims. Approximately 87% of Indonesia's population are Muslims, so with a population of 216 million, Indonesia is home to approximately 188 million Muslims. The religion of Islam spread to Indonesia during the Middle Ages.
    http://geography.about.com/library/f...miccountry.htm

    The fact is, it isn't SOME muslims. A lot of muslims suffer from poor education due to their families beliefs(*note: This also happens with other beliefs. You may disregard that comment) OR the environment they are raised.

    Islam is not as much targeting these 'uneducated' as athiests are, athiests give the easy answer - ignore. While it still educates, as does Islam. Islam promotes the advancement of knowledge, why should it not. It targets those who are educated to strengthen its existence. To say Islam targets the uneducated, is to say Islam targets humanity itself.
    Targets? No. That assumes there is a central leader.
    Instead, it's the undereducated that don't know any better.
    Take Africans, for example. There is a rumor going around that if you rape a virgin you get cured of aids. Many young/elderly men in africa believe this! (although thankfully that's getting less)

    As for the brain-washing. Well in a way we are all brain-washed, by what we do and by who and what we are surrounded by. You may say I am brain-washed by the promise of a happy afterlife, but I would say you are brain-washed by thinking you can have all the freedoms that come with life without dealing with any consequences.
    *sigh* you are proving MY case, not your own, with that logic. It's a lot like altruism, it doesn't exist. There are only LEVELS of selfishness among people.

    Now as for your brainwashed example: The promise of an afterlife is not brainwashing. The promise of an afterlife on the premesis of an almighty god that reveals himself through flawed writing, on the other hand, is. The list can go on about "fallacies" or "contradictions" really.

    Take, for a perfect example, Jehovahs Wittnesses. They have (many times) said there is an end-date. Their recent date was it began in 1914. if you've read my other post (search for 1914, it'll be there), I could calculate the end-date easily based on that. It's a contradiction to their philosophical beliefs. People, however, are "brainwashed" so heavily that nobody ever even ASKS about the end-date, or realizes the finite timespan of christs reign (also listed in the bible), etc.

    Brainwashing is basically mentally conditioning someone until they are unable to evaluate the evidence properly. In this case, at least. Although any expansions on that definition are welcomed.

    lie, it is not.
    Matrix: It's all a lie.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    To judge a religion and say it is "good" or "bad" has to be subjective. For sure, the Muslim scriptures portray a more harsh, forceful and militant way of life than the New Testament scriptures because they are based more on the Jewish scriptures and they are very harsh and brutal. However, keep in mind that a "religion" is what the people believe, not what the scriptures say because they are, in all religions, inconsistent.

    And, those who act as in Saudia Arabia are very few in number. I lived three years in Indonesia which has the largest Muslim population of any nation on Earth, and their faith is very moderate, humane and civil. This is true of nearly all of Islam. For 1400 years Islam has functioned as a civilized society and produced one of the world's finest civilizations.

    What is happening now in Islam is that for the last almost 60 years, we have tampered with and intruded upon Islam and built a sense of being "cornered" in them. In this century, we have invaded Islam twice more and are threateneing to do it yet again in Iran. We are, in this way, building terrorism in Islam.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    722
    Charles wrote:
    In this century, we have invaded Islam twice more and are threateneing to do it yet again in Iran. We are, in this way, building terrorism in Islam.
    So you think they have a good reason to kill thousand of innocent people in worldtrade building, or at least you sympathize with them.
    I believe that if Buddhists were invaded the same way they would still not turn to killing indiscriminately.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    88
    Any sugestions on helping Iraq? < Bush's words not mine.

    If Country X killed 655,000+ people from your country (not counting those killed in other countries), would it not feel right to attack back? Its a YES or NO question, no other comment needed.

    Its the circle of violence that gives these 'attackers', their justification.
    Ignorance is Bliss ... till death
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Any sugestions on helping Iraq? < Bush's words not mine.

    If Country X killed 655,000+ people from your country (not counting those killed in other countries), would it not feel right to attack back? Its a YES or NO question, no other comment needed.

    Its the circle of violence that gives these 'attackers', their justification.

    its not a yes or no answer, the majority of people killed in iraq are killed by iraqis not americans. That always get forgotten

    Who are planting bombs are martyring themselves?
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    Parasit, you should not get all emotional and put words in my mouth! I did not JUSTIFY 9/11. I explained what caused it. The rational thing to do is find out why things happen rather than get emotional over them.
    Brough,
    civilization-overview (dot) com

    --------------------
    There are no accidents, just someone taking too much risk. . . (CB)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    722
    Charles, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. When you wrote "We are, in this way, building terrorism in Islam. " I think you are putting the blame back to other people. Like the muslims have no choice but to be terrorists.

    And if you read Jagomon's notes after that you can see that he think it is a good justification.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    Charles, I am sorry if I misinterpreted your statement. When you wrote "We are, in this way, building terrorism in Islam. " I think you are putting the blame back to other people. Like the muslims have no choice but to be terrorists.
    It is not a question of blame, it is a question of causes. Charles, with precision and perception, is stating that we must recognise the causes and deal with these, if we wish to halt the spread of terrorism. That seems eminently sensible to me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    722
    May I say that Islam's doctrine about jihad is also another cause of terrorism?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    May I say that Islam's doctrine about jihad is also another cause of terrorism?

    True, how many attacks were there worldwide before afghanistan and iraq, The answer loads.

    All this rubbish about retaliation is pathetic, without afghanistan and iraq we still would have had terrorist attacks cause these nutters are brainwashed beyond belief. They are killing each other in thousands in iraq and then saying its the americans fault. Are the americans making them fill a car with explosives and driving it into a market with NO americans in sight? NOPE

    What about the call for killing rushdie over a fictional story, the dutch artist over the painting on a womens body, the danish cartoons. I realised what they remind me of.......


    A spoilt child who doesn't get their own way and start having a temper tantrum

    They need to grow up realise people have different opinions than their own and accept them or shut up

    The rest of the civilised world seems to have less of a problem. In the UK there is little or no problems from any other religious group as a whole and their religions are accepted more

    In the UK there are regular sikh and hindu festivals where the non-believers are welcomed and join in and guess what..... It works
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Captain Caveman,
    I understand the depth of your passion on this issue. Sometimes a deeply felt belief can obscure some perspectives on a situation. That is something I think is always worth pondering.

    In this regard, no consideration of Islamic terrorism in the 21st Century can afford to ignore the difficulty posed by the Israeli-Palestinian situation. This is not the place for a tangential discussion, but it certainly provides the 'provocation' that you feel is lacking.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Captain Caveman,
    I understand the depth of your passion on this issue. Sometimes a deeply felt belief can obscure some perspectives on a situation. That is something I think is always worth pondering.

    In this regard, no consideration of Islamic terrorism in the 21st Century can afford to ignore the difficulty posed by the Israeli-Palestinian situation. This is not the place for a tangential discussion, but it certainly provides the 'provocation' that you feel is lacking.

    I honestly believe the problem with the palestinians and israelis will never be sorted out because of the stance of islam, not the Peaceful islam that we hear about but dont see but the islamofasicts that have hijacked the religion

    this is part of the is islam a good religion thread and not a tangential issue and im not doing this to provocate. Islam is a religion ruled by the sword and that is one of the major reasons why modern islam is so bad
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,169
    Part of your argument appeared to be that no explanation for the recent rise of radical/fundamental Islam was to be found in a reaction on the part of Moslems. You observed, I think, that there had been no persecution on which such a reaction could be based.

    I am challenging that premise by noting, as a single example, the behaviour - indeed the very existence - of Israel. Several other instances could be noted. From the viewpoint of a Palestinian, or an Arab, or a Moslem, there are ample instances in the last one hundred years that reflect a contempt on the part of the West for followers of this religion.

    If you keep kicking a dog it may eventually bite. Sometimes it bights an 'innocent' passer by.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Part of your argument appeared to be that no explanation for the recent rise of radical/fundamental Islam was to be found in a reaction on the part of Moslems. You observed, I think, that there had been no persecution on which such a reaction could be based.

    I am challenging that premise by noting, as a single example, the behaviour - indeed the very existence - of Israel. Several other instances could be noted. From the viewpoint of a Palestinian, or an Arab, or a Moslem, there are ample instances in the last one hundred years that reflect a contempt on the part of the West for followers of this religion.

    If you keep kicking a dog it may eventually bite. Sometimes it bights an 'innocent' passer by.

    you analogy about the dog, the dog always seems to bite the innocent passer by, by choice.

    The point i was making earlier is that its not just the west thats causing the conflict in iraq but other more radical muslim group who even attack their own muslim people. Groups like al-queda have openly waged a jihad on america and its allies because of their support for israel nearly a decade ago and who have they attacked innocent people, women and children included. To say the wests view of islam is justifiable excuse to blow up children is wrong
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


    I ANSWER TO NO-ONE - The wonders of athiesm

    that which does not kill us only postpones the inevitable
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68 you will not believe this ... how iron was created ?! 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    6
    just watch ... carefully ...

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeLNY0wA0Co
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •