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Thread: I need to talk to someone smart

  1. #1 I need to talk to someone smart 
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    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    Tell me why theres no possibility of me being connected to another universe causing confusion in my brain.

    I want to go beyond the thought 'If i hear voices then they must be gods " .

    thank you. I think because of the parallel universe question this applies to science. or that this is a science question in a way.


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    is there any reason besides schizophrenia that i could be hearing voices? Whether it be parallel universes? Or reincarnation? Or something else?


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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    Tell me why theres no possibility of me being connected to another universe causing confusion in my brain.

    I want to go beyond the thought 'If i hear voices then they must be gods " .

    thank you. I think because of the parallel universe question this applies to science. or that this is a science question in a way.
    What do you hope to accomplish by asking a science forum 'what if' and 'possibility' questions? Do you think claiming to be schizophrenic gives you a troll pass?
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    i really am schizo, i have no smart people around me so i was trying to get help. dont be so skeptical , just like a atheist is of the existence of god. Just answer the questions. i dont even know what a troll is.
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    (Disclaimer: I am not a 'smart person', merely an ordinary person interested in science.)

    Hello PaulMichael.

    Have you been diagnosed formally as having schizophrenia? Are you on any medications, prescribed or otherwise for this condition?

    Seeing or hearing things that are not there is one of the symptoms of schizophrenia. You are aware of this?

    Schizophrenia - PubMed Health

    The 'Parallel Universe Theory' once advanced by Stephen Hawking has since been retracted by him.

    Previously, Hawking, 62, had held out the possibility that disappearing matter travels through the black hole to a new parallel universe — the very stuff of most visionary science fiction.

    "There is no baby universe branching off, as I once thought. The information remains firmly in our universe," Hawking said in a speech to the conference.

    "I'm sorry to disappoint science fiction fans, but if information is preserved, there is no possibility of using black holes to travel to other universes," he said. "If you jump into a black hole, your mass energy will be returned to our universe, but in a mangled form, which contains the information about what you were like, but in an unrecognizable state."


    Hawking's New Black Hole Theory - CBS News



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    yes, i am on medications. I see a psychiatrist also. I go to therapy on a bi weekly basis. The problem with schizophrenia is that they cannot tell whats real and whats not real so they believe the real voices. I also do so. But anyways,

    so stephen hawking does not believe in parallel universes?
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    iam a little bit scared of black holes. Can u tell me more about them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    iam a little bit scared of black holes. Can u tell me more about them?
    Black holes are always a popular topic in science forums, have done any searches yet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    iam a little bit scared of black holes. Can u tell me more about them?
    Perhaps a good place to start would be to go to the NASA site at the following link:

    Black Holes - NASA Science

    In my day to day life, I don't really think too much about these matters so I cannot easily provide you with an 'executive summary' of the topic. Perhaps one of our science types will jump in with more details.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    Tell me why theres no possibility of me being connected to another universe causing confusion in my brain.

    I want to go beyond the thought 'If i hear voices then they must be gods " .

    thank you. I think because of the parallel universe question this applies to science. or that this is a science question in a way.
    Hey there, I think you will find many people suffer from various forms of mental illness, so you're not alone there, the thing is though that usually people that are thus afflicted may suffer from any number of hallucinations, delusions or hear voices. This is why they are given medication and treatment to prevent these problems occuring. Science has no records of anybody ever actually being spoken to by a God or Gods. So I would think it's pretty safe to assume what you are hearing or imagining isn't real. I would stongly suggest though you discuss these thoughts further with your psychiatrist so they can help you stay grounded in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    iam a little bit scared of black holes. Can u tell me more about them?
    I am happy to tell you about black holes, but there is a whole page on Wikipedia which explains them very well so I won't even paraphrase and just instead give you the opening quote and wiki link, should you wish to continue reading:

    "A black hole is a region of spacetime where gravity prevents anything, including light, from escaping. The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass will deform spacetime to form a black hole. Around a black hole there is a mathematically defined surface called an event horizon that marks the point of no return. It is called "black" because it absorbs all the light that hits the horizon, reflecting nothing, just like a perfect black body in thermodynamics. Quantum mechanics predicts that event horizons emit radiation like a black body with a finite temperature. This temperature is inversely proportional to the mass of the black hole, making it difficult to observe this radiation for black holes of stellar mass or greater."

    Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I would also like you to understand that there is nothing to be frightened of from black holes, they are beyond our complete understanding and certainly beyond any measure of control we may have, so they will do what they will do, interesting to learn about but also certainly irrelevant to be afraid of worried by. Anything beyond our control is not worth worry or fear, it would just be a waste of time.
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    Schizophrenia affects about 1% of human populations across the world. So you're not alone. The big issue for each person with the condition is how they respond to it and how well the treatment works.

    The biggest issue is insight into how it affects you. Many schizophrenics learn to recognise that the voices are not real things and can ignore what they say just as anyone can not bother taking notice of other people's conversation or, eventually, treat them like radio playing in the background. Others seem unable to learn this. Despite having had the condition for years they will respond automatically to what the voices tell them to do without question or reflection.

    We can have no inkling of how you are nor of what your therapists are trying to achieve with you. But a good thing for you to focus on, I suspect, would be on working out a way to think about whether you want to pay any attention to the voices at all or to pick and choose from what the voices say rather than presume that they're saying anything important or relevant.
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    I'm not particularly smart when it comes to parallel universes or medical diagnosis, but I would suggest that schizophrenia is a very serious condition and perhaps the best way to go about easing your suffering is not to focus on things which modern science is only on the fringes of understanding. If it provides you with a distraction,so be it, but if you put all your efforts into that particular area, you're likely going to be disappointed.

    Unless someone on this forum turns out to be Quinn Mallory.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Do you think claiming to be schizophrenic gives you a troll pass?
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    i dont even know what a troll is.
    That is a standard response from a troll when accused of being a troll.
    Certainly, someone unfamiliar with forums may not know what a forum troll is: but they will almost certainly know what a troll is.
    And even if they didn't know what a troll was, then the reply to "Do you think claiming to be schizophrenic gives you a troll pass?" would be: "What is a 'troll pass'?".
    Just sayin'.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    iam a little bit scared of black holes. Can u tell me more about them?
    Nuff said?
    Last edited by RedPanda; November 14th, 2012 at 11:15 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    Tell me why theres no possibility of me being connected to another universe causing confusion in my brain.

    I want to go beyond the thought 'If i hear voices then they must be gods " .

    thank you. I think because of the parallel universe question this applies to science. or that this is a science question in a way.
    You know there is at least one mind in your brain... where there is one there may be more!

    The voices you hear are produced in your own brain in a similar way to how the brain produces your dreams.
    So just like dreams the voices are real to you, and can be dangerous for you if you trust them!
    Remember that YOU are the master in your brain, the voices are like "cancer minds" trying to take you over... trying to make you do their bidding. Did you notice that dreams have no moral sense? Neither have your voices any moral! They are probably not self conscious ... they are disassociated parts of the "thinking machinery" that is the origin of your thoughts... You probably understand that you dont really create your own thoughts? You wish and "reach out" for a thought and the thought develops in front of your "mental eye". When you are close to sleep you sometimes get thoughts in your mind that you didnt yourself bring up! Your voices are stronger examples of the same phenomenon.
    Ordinary people have stronger barriers against voices so they dont usually hear them... but they are there in all of us!

    Remember NEVER to believe in what they say...NEVER EVER TRUST THEM!
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    You probably have dreams, they seam real when you experience them but are not, right?
    I get dreams too. These are not messages from another dimension but signals that fire up in our brains, and our brain has the tendency to give meaning and weave a continuum to what it perceives, most of the time this continuum reflects whats going on around us, sometimes it doesn't.

    Imo our brain creates patterns that are representations of what we have experienced before. When we perceive something, this pattern is associated to patterns or models we have established and we recognize the new pattern as an apple, or a person, or associate properties its far (small) or near (larger). This means that for everything you see that you have seen before, there may be a pattern in your brain, a model which can be associated with a number of properties, objects and events that are also modeled in your brain. This allows you to recognize stuff, but also to imagine stuff that doesnt exist, which is a helpful ability, to create, imagine, or recall things you dont see (where did I put my keys?). Its similar with hearing, you have patterns of sounds words music voices in your brain, models that allow you to relate the sound pattern to th correct words, and allows youu to think in terms of words that enable you to communicate with your mouth or to imagine and formulate ideas, phrases ("yeah if she was there I would say hey how about a movie. Hey Im thinking and not actually talking, whoo-hoo, Im talking in my head, maybe she will say... ~hey Id like to see the new girly movie~, hey Im imagining myself talking and also imagining her voice talking back at me"). Think about Bill Clinton, remember his voice, "I did not have sexual relations...", JFK with his accent "because its hard", or Palpatine in Star Wars "I can feeeeel your anger", theres a vast, vast, array of dialogue from many characters in your brain that you can recall from movies and people you have heard talking in some situations, thats on top of the ability to imagine phrases.

    So when our brain is stimulated in certain ways, we experience hallucinations, and there is often no way to distinguish it from reality because reality (as experienced/perceived) is also fabricated in our brain, except reality is created based on stimulus from the outside for which there's a half decent match with patterns we already have, and hallucinations are triggered internally. By the way, when people drive fast, we all experience hallucinations in a way, that is, the brain makes approximations about objects location in our field of vision and when the objects move too fast (because we drive fast) its processing speed ability is exceeded it has a hard time being precises but takes best guesses as to where objects are(whether its really there or not, we see the approximation), which means that if an object disappears, for a fraction of a second or a second you will REALLY SEE an object that is NOT Really there. On top of that our brain as I said gives meaning/reality/rationalizes the experience, so that even things that arent right sorta appear to be real or make sense, most of the time.

    So your brain has all the mechanisms to create voices you hear, a giant database of dialogue, things you have said or thought about saying, the ability to imagine voices you invent and a mechanism to make it appear real (because most of the time what we experience is a useful representation of whats going on around us, it makes the experience better and helps you make better decisions to have an experience where all things are tied up and relations are perceived, but sometimes it not an accurate representation but that's usually the exception)

    I think you have to learn that you must question what you perceive based on context, if theres no one to make the sound, you know that in your case there is a huge chance theres no one there and that you are having a mini audio dream, and ignore it. Use context to evaluate it. Unlike most people (newbies) who dont usually have hallucinations and would think (if they had one) "hey theres an invisible man that no one sees?" (because its not happened to them yet), you can be a more experienced guy and figure out quickly that there is actually no one there (not an invisible man), ~been there done that, theres no one there~.
    Last edited by icewendigo; November 20th, 2012 at 09:13 AM.
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    Sorry to hear about your being Schizophrenic
    Your question: (Is it a ) "possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?" I don't think so.
    Your comment: "Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation." True, what I just said above this line, I might of been wrong just then. We are merely Human beings and none knows the answers or true answers of the World.
    Your other comment: "maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live." I do know about this of reincarnation. I doubt that we are that connected to our last selves, most Buddhists don't agree with me about this. Not saying all Buddhists would probably disagree with me.
    What you wonder about: "if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness." You may have hit the nail on the head. I rather think, religiously speaking, your problem may be God or the Devil saying stuff to you. It's not your fault. Are they good or are they bad things? I believe in angels too, so it could be your own personal angels. I think though, mentally wise, for your mental health, you should try start to pretend it is only your conscious speaking, your mind debating good and bad. I don't hear voices but my mind battles if what I should do in a decision is good or bad. I mean, I heard one voice of God, twice in my life only, two different days far apart. It is a normal thing for people to have self-judgement before they do any action. It is good to not act before you think about things. Everybody should think before they act, another words. Why do you want us to tell you it's not possible that you are like the way you are because of parrallel universes do or don't exist what? They probaby do. Not just people who are schizo think parallel univeses exist, I'm part schizo, I have almost everything most of my life except I don't hear voices, but I have a bad time not talking to myself in public and I can't controll myself. So I think that's the scizo in me. I don't talk to voices, I know I'm talking to myself, I feel I find it easy to forget any one is around me and I am talking to myself on purpose, not with voices or other imaginary people, I tell my main person what to do. I feel I am a master and my body is it's own slave. Gods, plural, do not exist. One God, does exist, and He so chooses who he wants to have Himself be heard, in the Qur'an, if you care to read, it says God chooses who he wants to help guide in life, maybe you are, no you are not a prophet, but God does still guide certain people, of who He chooses. So you can and should feel lucky. If it's not God, cuz if the voices are more like telling you to do bad things, then I'm not saying you need an exocism, You have this much control to ask the question you have originally posted, that means you have the control to excercise Satan and his demons on your own. Just call on God for help. You need no other person. Pray to God to keep Satan away, Hebrew, Ha-Sataan is like Satan's name. But it could be parellel universe, but just ask yourself if the voices are particularily good or particularrily bad. If they are an even mix of both, then it is probably not even God or Satan. It's your parellel universes, as your answer.
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    *a very interesting question, I have discussed this subject before. bravo for thinking outside the confines. It has been my understanding that reality for to long has been dictated by those of limited capacity- result dull flat reality. and *which lacks essenial fundamentals, such as: curiousity /discovery. We are not obliged to follow this dictate, but rather to expand it. thanks **
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc2 View Post
    bravo for thinking outside the confines.
    Yes, because mainstream critical thinking and acceptance of evidence is clearly confined...
    Quote Originally Posted by mc2 View Post
    It has been my understanding that reality for to long has been dictated by those of limited capacity- result dull flat reality. and *which lacks essenial fundamentals, such as: curiousity /discovery. We are not obliged to follow this dictate, but rather to expand it. thanks **
    Such arrogance. In other words, your ideas flop in the face of the scientific method- a more true measure of curiosity/discovery, and rather than adjust your thinking, you berate mainstream science for not bending to your will and misconceptions.

    I find it interesting how those that cannot support claims with strong evidence then choose to insult other scientists and try hard to cast doubt, rather than show support.
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    A friend once speculated the voices were actually time lapses of those no longer in excistence. Kind of like a record or impression, like radio waves linger in the air, thought waves, or persona wave...something of this nature. After this dicussion I found myself prompted to consider *other possibilities. The challenging nature of what you deal with percepually, if viewed with more quesioning *a great deal of light might be shed on many aspects of just how we work.*
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    PaulMichael,

    Consider this, if there were parallel universes or past lives causing the voices you hear, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that all people hear voices from which the sources are undetermined? Why would a only a very small percentage of humans be susceptible to hearing these parallel voices or whispers from the past? And if the voices truly originated outside your own mind why and how would medication have any affect on the frequency or manner of the voices heard?

    The only logical reason that the voices would be relatively unique to a few people is that this small percentage of people have something different about them. And if a brain altering medication reduces or eliminates the voices then the source of the voices must be in the brain. So the difference between you and those who don't hear them must be some biological difference within your own brain. Trust your psychiatrist, the idea that voices stemmed from genuine outside sources has already been examined and deduced to be false. A long time ago you may have been treated as if you were possessed by demons, or that you were a witch. Religious explanations are the last place you want to go for explaining the voices.

    And the multiverse options, even if the multiverses actually exist, do not present reasonably logical probabilities in light of the fact that few people hear voices.
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    Is there anybody hear who does not hear thoughts in their minds?
    Anybody who does not hear their conscience?

    It's is my understanding that normal people do this all the time.... what then is different about being schizophrenic?

    Is being 'schizoprenic' beleiving those vioces are gods or spirits instead of our own minds? if so, that's not a good critiria for diagnosinh mental illness.

    Where is the line between a normal mind and a schizophrenic mind...? anybody?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    And the multiverse options, even if the multiverses actually exist, do not present reasonably logical probabilities in light of the fact that few people hear voices.
    I don't hear uncontrollable vioces... but I hear thoughts in my mind, I speak in my mind, to myself... I can put on any accent I want in the internal dialogue of my mind... does this mean i'm shcizophrenic?

    Whop doesn't 'hear' within their own mind? who doesn't see with the eyes closed?
    Anybody???
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is there anybody hear who does not hear thoughts in their minds?
    This is obviously pretty variable. I was really surprised when I first found out that other people really do hear their thoughts as a voice. I always assumed it was just a metaphor, before.

    The difference is that you can control your thoughts. You can choose what to think about. And, I assume, it is obvious that this "voice" is inside your head?

    My understanding is that schizophrenics hear multiple voices. They have no control over them. They do not sound as if they are inside your head. It is like being followed by several different radios. The voices seem to frequently scream obscenities or other unpleasant things (which is a clue that it is a breakdown in the internal control/censorship systems).
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Whop doesn't 'hear' within their own mind? who doesn't see with the eyes closed?
    Anybody???
    Me. Unless I make a deliberate effort.

    Do you hear voices when you read? I do occasionally when I am reading something I have heard performed by people with distinctive voices (i.e. I hear the performance repeated in my head). When this happens, thankfully not very often, it is incredibly distracting and slows my reading right down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    This is obviously pretty variable. I was really surprised when I first found out that other people really do hear their thoughts as a voice. I always assumed it was just a metaphor, before.
    You assumed what was a metaphor? the good angel on one shoulder, bad angel sitting on the other? it is.
    The thing is... if you don't hear your thoughts or see your thoughts.... then what are they? It's blowing my mind just trying to analyse what my thoughts are and what they materialise as in my mind... right now my unclear muddled mind is trying to think of words that make a sentance... I as write that I begin to say the words to myself,in my mind, but previously I wasn't. My mind just remembered that I'm trying of understand if thoughts are sounds or touch sensations known as feelings, or images or smells/tastes or all of the above plus more. This is new territory for my mind and I have little stored in the brain to help, so my mind's not being fed any thought memories to help me understand what thoughts are. Therefor the only thing comming into my mind is that I need to finish up this paragraph.

    Consciously consider your thoughts, the question is not what is your thought, the question is: How the hell did that just happen? where did it come from? How was it recieved and interpreted?

    I need to go meditate. I suspect that will lead me to a conclusion that it's not worth thinking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    The difference is that you can control your thoughts. You can choose what to think about. And, I assume, it is obvious that this "voice" is inside your head?

    My understanding is that schizophrenics hear multiple voices. They have no control over them. They do not sound as if they are inside your head. It is like being followed by several different radios. The voices seem to frequently scream obscenities or other unpleasant things (which is a clue that it is a breakdown in the internal control/censorship systems).
    Yes it is obvious that it is in my mind, It is not a case of my ears sending signals to my brain that makes my mind beleive it is hearing something...

    Right now i'm trying to think, but also trying to write, so i'm trying to verbalise my thoughts and I will say them in my mind as I string them together. It is just a case of organising my thoughts (whatever they are) or the results of my thoughts into a verbal format.

    At times when i'm trying to make a decision on whether to take some action or not...

    Then I will get a voice, and often two... usually voices saying 'go for it' or 'don't do it'. It is clearly in my mind, I don't get signals from my ears, they are at rest. But I do 'hear' it out loud in my mind sometimes. And it is also tempting to pay heed to 'the voices'.... as chances are, they are indeed my thoughts... for if they are not my thoughts then they are the thoughts of some telepathic entity, in which case I tend to think they must be clever and so I should listen to them.

    When I become conscious that I am hearing a 'voice' even if it has exactly the same accent as my own (not that I know my accent, tend to avoid listening to my voice recorded as all previous exposure to the sound of my own voice made me chringe), at the moment I become conscious of 'hearing' in my mind then I try to analyse it... was that my mind speaking to itself or was that a message from above? At this point i'm conscious of it and conscious of every thought i'm 'hearing' in my mind.... at this point I can deliberately give the 'voice' any accent I want, authorative, friendly, god like whatever and can also deliberately 'say out loud' whatever I choose to, in my mind. But thoughts come and go and I'm not convinced I am in total control of them... I can push them away, or ignore thoughts, I can distract myself and focus on other things... but where they come from? I don't know... do I control it? I don't think so. I have control over my mind to a degree, but it has control over me also... I do not control what apears in the conscious mind entirely, far from it, I deal with it as it occurs.

    I have always tended to think that the voice that I am conscious of in my mind is either manisfested by my subconscious mind from my previous knowledge and experience in order direct my conscious mind. Or a message from a higher mind. Or when I think about it too much... it just seems like my conscious thoughts are manisfesting instruction or comforting voices to encourage action or peace.

    I do not see things, but I do hear thoughts as voices. I've managed long term relationships and get along with people, i'm able bodied and talented and despite never being much of a nerd, I seem to manage to be competant at absorbing information and accessing it when my mind needs it, so I consider myself healthy.

    I consider that it is a mechanism that somehow sifts through all my experience and knowledge subconsciously and presents the answer to my conscious mind as a voice, or my conscious mind instantly translates the thought into a voice.

    I can imagine how under severe mental stresses, thoughts and processes of the mind can become 'distorted' and hard to have any control over.

    It can't be ruled out though that the thoughts which manifest as voices... are being picked up in a way that is not currently understood by science.

    How do you experience 'thought' strange? you say you don't 'hear' in your mind? you see words rather than hear them in your mind? surely it's more efficient to hear them 'spoken' than to imagine them in text format? Do your thoughts appear as text? heeheee. Can you change the font and everything?

    As for reincarnation PaulMicheal... It could be said that the DNA reincarnates itself with every generation in the lineage. It's thought that the DNA stores information or code which changes and evolves due to environment. I think the DNA is considered to be the code for our whole being including our 'instinctive' intelligence that we inherit from our ancestors and contribute to for the future members of the lineage. So if subconscious instinctive thoughts from our ancestral DNA manifest as 'voices' in your conscious mind... then it could be considered that the voices are reincarnations from the thoughts of our ancestors. Do you know what I mean? Not reincarnation... but the voices of your ancestors. Not literally, they'r dead... but their thoughts and experiences are all combined to leave an impression on the DNA, which evolves as it is passed on from one life to the next, and must surely contribute to our 'animal instincts', our subconscious mind and intelligence which makes us what we are.

    So if the voices you hear are related to subconscious instincts, then they could be romantically thought of as the voices of your ancestors, but really it would be the collective intelligence of your ancestors, that has contributed to the DNA or whatever makes you up, which has been passed on to you.

    I shouldn't need to point out that I'm not qualified by anybody to give advice to shcizophrenics or anybody else. I'm just a Human trying to make some sense of life and happilly sharing obscure thoughts that seem to make sense to me at the time of writting. Really I just think writting helps me concentrate my thoughts, and organise my thoughts into soundbites I can remember for a while... why I hit the send button I have no clue. I just hope to ammuse that's all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is there anybody hear who does not hear thoughts in their minds?
    This is obviously pretty variable. I was really surprised when I first found out that other people really do hear their thoughts as a voice. I always assumed it was just a metaphor, before.

    The difference is that you can control your thoughts. You can choose what to think about. And, I assume, it is obvious that this "voice" is inside your head?

    My understanding is that schizophrenics hear multiple voices. They have no control over them. They do not sound as if they are inside your head. It is like being followed by several different radios. The voices seem to frequently scream obscenities or other unpleasant things (which is a clue that it is a breakdown in the internal control/censorship systems).
    From what I understand is that when you hear your own thoughts it is quite different than when you hear something from a source outside of your own head. And if you do a brain scan in a silent room but give the patient something to think about, like a song they know, you see one part of their brain light up as they think about it and imagine hearing it. But if the song is actually played audibly where anyone in the room can here it, a different part of their brain lights up. When a schizophrenic hears voices the same part of their brain lights up as well as other parts as did the patient who actually heard a song playing outside their brain. This means the brain is not properly discerning the source of the "sound". And imagine how discomforting it would be to perceive voices following you everywhere all the time that seem to be coming from outside your brain and so you can't control them. It is as disturbing as the idea of having strangers follow you everywhere you go screaming at you. It would make anyone feel insane.

    Helping the schizophrenic to understand that the sources of the voices are actually within their own mind can at least assure them that they are not being followed around or haunted by any weird phenomenon. Is there any means of them learning to control the voices by their own will alone? I don't know. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. I hope there is a way. But until then, there is medication which can help control the firing of neurons that cause the voices and therapy to help the patient deal with the trauma of it all.
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    Did you see the film called 'A beutiful mind' starring russle crowe? He took the drugs but they stopped him from functioning properly... in the end he learnt to live with the characters as figments of his imagination... without medication if I remember correctly. (based on a true story).

    Also in that film it portrayed that the characters would appear during stress... and the schitzophrenia began during a stressfull period when he began at a new college and knew nobody.

    Is it stress that causes it? what kind of suffering causes it to happen?

    Prevention is even better than cure.
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    Prevention is even better than cure.
    That's a bit of an ask. It's universally about 1% of the population.

    Though they have recently found a correlation with mothers of children who eventually became schizophrenic having suffered influenza at a particular stage in the pregnancy. So flu vaccination every year for fertile women might cut the rate down a little bit - but only if that correlation turns out to be a genuine causation. I'd be doing it for safety's sake if I were planning to get pregnant, but many wouldn't.
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    1% is a lot of people.

    Isn't there a link between stress and general suffering/lonelyness?

    I'm sorry but I think it speaks volumns that the only potential causation so far, is something that advocates a flu vaccination. Who was it that found these links? Who funded this research? oh I'm sure it's all quite kosher, I know the score by now.

    By and large I think the science isn't there to find faults (causes) for two reasons 1) Guilty parties will not invest in exposing themselves. 2) Nobody wants to upset the guilty parties.

    Investment is usually profit driven, is all being done in science to research problems that are not expected to reap any financial reward for anybody? Or is this profit factor a limitation upon the scope and development of scientific understanding and human progress?

    Mayby this is getting a bit of topic my apologise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Prevention is even better than cure.
    That's a bit of an ask. It's universally about 1% of the population.

    Though they have recently found a correlation with mothers of children who eventually became schizophrenic having suffered influenza at a particular stage in the pregnancy. So flu vaccination every year for fertile women might cut the rate down a little bit - but only if that correlation turns out to be a genuine causation. I'd be doing it for safety's sake if I were planning to get pregnant, but many wouldn't.
    This is true, that many wouldn't. Add that to the bundle of people who think vaccinations cause Asperger's syndrome. My son has shown signs of schizophrenia, hearing voices and such, but it happens most when he is stressed out as well. He has never been officially diagnosed with schizophrenia but only because his last doctor had a policy of not diagnosing anyone under 18 with that illness. His reason is that with kids it is hard to tell if they are imagining it, or making it up, or sincerely hearing voices. Also in my son's case he has Aspergers and so his communication is odd. The doctor said it is hard to determine if he is expressing himself clearly when describing his experiences. But another doctor, a therapist, said he had PTSD from having seen me being beaten by his father as a toddler. And he felt that the voices were manifestations created by his subconscious in an attempt to personify a somewhat undefined fear so that he had a foe that seemed tangible rather than an abstract one.

    He hasn't had any episodes for a long time and is almost 18 now. And he remembers hearing the voices but he deals with stress differently now and talks more openly about things. Back when he was having issues he kept things bottled up all the time. So maybe stress does play a role in it. I don't remember ever having the flu while pregnant with him but I did have a very stressful pregnancy and ended up in the hospital twice for severe dehydration due to excessive morning sickness that didn't fade until the 7th month.
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    Isn't there a link between stress and general suffering/lonelyness?
    Yes. But that's got little or nothing to do with schizophrenia.

    The research? As far as I can tell, it's been driven by looking at gene variations in people with schizophrenia compared to the rest of the population. Finding that the genes in question have some link to various other illnesses, the researchers go looking - mainly for big flu epidemics to pick up any links to the prevalence of schizophrenia in children born at various intervals after the epidemic.

    Schizophrenia Susceptibility Genes Directly Implicated in the Life Cycles of Pathogens: Cytomegalovirus, Influenza, Herpes simplex, Rubella, and Toxoplasma gondii
    Epidemiological evidence that maternal influenza contributes to the aetiology of schizophrenia. An analysis of Scottish, English, and Danish data.

    Investment is usually profit driven, is all being done in science to research problems that are not expected to reap any financial reward for anybody? Or is this profit factor a limitation upon the scope and development of scientific understanding and human progress?
    A good part of it is driven by governments. Schizophrenia causes a whole host of social problems on top of the direct costs to the health system. If there's a possibility of a better, cheaper method of treatment or a preventive measure that could reduce the incidence in the first place, governments have a real interest, not just financial, in promoting this kind of research.
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    I'm sorry that you went through that seagypsy, thank you for sharing your experiences.

    Best wishes to you and your's for the future.

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    His reason is that with kids it is hard to tell if they are imagining it, or making it up, or sincerely hearing voices.
    Oh lordy. So it's more good luck than good management that you and your son don't have to deal with schizophrenia that went untreated for years before that magical birthday. This sort of thing sometimes makes me cross.

    If the doc doesn't want to diagnose unnecessarily (and kids 'making stuff up' is not a good justification) then he should refer such patients to specialists who really can tell the difference. It's entirely possible for primary school age children to display active schizophrenia. I've had 2 friends/acquaintances whose children were diagnosed with schizophrenia, one in the early part of the standard 15 to 25 years old span, one even earlier - first year high school.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Isn't there a link between stress and general suffering/lonelyness?
    Yes. But that's got little or nothing to do with schizophrenia.
    I did mean link between the following three: stress/general suffering/lonlyness... and... schizophrenia


    So if influenza is a link... then what causes influenza? specifically during pregnancy, and what can be done to prevent it?

    Can't those with influenza be quaranteened for a while untill we get rid of it? meanwhile all preganant woman should be rationed with crisp clean air from alpine forrests.
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    then what causes influenza? specifically during pregnancy, and what can be done to prevent it?
    Influenza is a virus. Unfortunately, it's one with many host species other than human so it has heaps of opportunities to mutate. The 1918-19 flu epidemic was a virulent bird flu - killed more people in 18 months than the war did in 4 years. (My husband's grandfather was one of those who literally dropped dead in the street from this flu.)

    Prevention? Well, we certainly can't stop birds migrating from Russia to Australia every year. When the H5N1 virus emerged from SE Asia a few years ago many millions of poultry were killed - because, lucky for us, this one was mainly transmitted from bird to human. If it had managed the same higher rate of human to human transmission as the 1918 flu, we would have been in serious trouble, because it had a very high death rate in young, healthy people, 60%. In most years, the highest flu death rates are in elderly or sick people.

    The only prevention is yearly vaccination with the latest version of the flu vaccine.

    Influenza A virus subtype H5N1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Is influenza a completely naturally occuring virus?

    It seems ironic and paradoxical that a thing could survive in nature even though it kills it's host.

    Did the recent out break possibly have anything to do with unhygenic farming?
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    Did the recent out break possibly have anything to do with unhygenic farming?
    It's not like cholera or typhoid or the various forms of dysentery, it's entirely unrelated to hygiene.

    Influenza spreads around the world in seasonal epidemics resulting in about three to five million yearly cases of severe illness and about 250,000 to 500,000 yearly deaths, rising to millions in some pandemic years. In the 20th century three influenza pandemics occurred, each caused by the appearance of a new strain of the virus in humans, and killed tens of millions of people. Often, new influenza strains appear when an existing flu virus spreads to humans from another animal species, or when an existing human strain picks up new genes from a virus that usually infects birds or pigs.
    Seeing as the highest possible death rate from a virus can't kill the organisms which don't actually contract the illness, it's not possible for it to destroy the host. Especially for a virus which comes in such a high variety of forms in so many species and sub-species of animals as influenza is. Even Ebola, smallpox, typhoid, cholera and polio don't/didn't kill absolutely everybody they infect. We, at least, have the power to entirely kill off organisms like smallpox and polio which have no other hosts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is influenza a completely naturally occuring virus?

    It seems ironic and paradoxical that a thing could survive in nature even though it kills it's host.
    This is one of the most nonsensical things I have ever read.

    And Tigers should be extinct because they kill their food supply, too, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    And Tigers should be extinct because they kill their food supply, too, right?
    This is one of the most nonsensical things i've ever read.

    Tigers... which are endangered species (which means on the edge of extinction), kill their food... not their environment. See the difference?
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Tigers... which are endangered species (which means on the edge of extinction), kill their food... not their environment. See the difference?
    Not really, no.
    You questioned the validity of the existence of a virus because it reproduces using living cells.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    His reason is that with kids it is hard to tell if they are imagining it, or making it up, or sincerely hearing voices.
    Oh lordy. So it's more good luck than good management that you and your son don't have to deal with schizophrenia that went untreated for years before that magical birthday. This sort of thing sometimes makes me cross.

    If the doc doesn't want to diagnose unnecessarily (and kids 'making stuff up' is not a good justification) then he should refer such patients to specialists who really can tell the difference. It's entirely possible for primary school age children to display active schizophrenia. I've had 2 friends/acquaintances whose children were diagnosed with schizophrenia, one in the early part of the standard 15 to 25 years old span, one even earlier - first year high school.

    It did piss me off. I was struggling financially and without a diagnosis I was not able to access programs that may have helped my son. He is almost 18 now and still only in 10th grade. His trouble interfered with his schooling dramatically. If he was able to get help early in life he may not be so far behind now. And now he will have to go through the trouble of proving a disability in order to be able to get medicare for the disabled. I am hoping he has overcome it enough to be able to work but since he also has Aspergers syndrome he is struggling enough that I worry he wont be able to support himself as an adult. He has medical coverage right now because he is a kid and livign with his dad who is disabled. So he is able to get medicaid which covers any medicines he needs. As an adult he will lose that. If he had been diagnosed as a child he could have been awarded disability as a child which would have guaranteed him medical coverage into adulthood and would have opened up alot of programs to help him get on in life.

    But I was in a small town at the time and the doctors were few and far between.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is influenza a completely naturally occuring virus?
    Is there any reason to suspect it is not naturally occuring? I doubt there are people in labs making a flu virus.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    It seems ironic and paradoxical that a thing could survive in nature even though it kills it's host.
    There are plenty of parasites that kill their host. It could be that they don't have complex brains to realize that they are doing that. They simply move on to a new host before the current one dies. And not all flu sufferers die. I have had the flu this year, and I am still here. I probably passed it on to many people as well, because you don't show symptoms of it until you have already been contagious for several days.

    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Did the recent out break possibly have anything to do with unhygenic farming?
    I think adelady already addressed this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Not really, no.
    You questioned the validity of the existence of a virus because it reproduces using living cells.
    Not more nonsense please.

    I expressed that I find it ironic that a species which kills it's host has been so succesful at survival. I was trying to get an understanding of when influenza turned up in the tree of life. I found it hard to comprehend and paradoxical that it could have survived for a long time throughout evolution, becuase of the fact that it is not in a symbiotic relationship with it's host.

    A tiger is not killing or damaging it's host dramatically... it's killing it's prey. There's a big difference.
    Tigers play a part in a symbiotic relationship with most of their prey species and the food chain they belong to, taking the weak and keeping the ecosystem healthy.

    Influenza, especially a strain that targets the healthy instead of the weak, is a different thing all together from a Tiger, no really quite different. The ways they function and evolve and the roles they play are very different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Is influenza a completely naturally occuring virus?
    Is there any reason to suspect it is not naturally occuring? I doubt there are people in labs making a flu virus.
    Well I very much expect it has been experimented on in labs for a very long time. In the old days of science I imagine a lot of experiments were done by people who really had no idea of what they were playing with, and I'd bet it still goes on. Not meaning to take away from the acheivements of all these experimenters and pioneers.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    It seems ironic and paradoxical that a thing could survive in nature even though it kills it's host.
    There are plenty of parasites that kill their host. It could be that they don't have complex brains to realize that they are doing that. They simply move on to a new host before the current one dies. And not all flu sufferers die. I have had the flu this year, and I am still here. I probably passed it on to many people as well, because you don't show symptoms of it until you have already been contagious for several days.
    Yes there are a lot of parasitic species I imagine... how many of them kill their hosts I don't know. I'm sure they are not aware of the roles they play in a wider ecological system.
    I bet the majority of flu sufferers don't die... 'flu' what a friendly cute little nickname.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Did the recent out break possibly have anything to do with unhygenic farming?
    I think adelady already addressed this.
    I didn't mean hygene as in cleanlyness... I just wondered if farming practises in general (keeping the animals in close proximity of each other for example) was considered as a reason for the epidemic
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Not more nonsense please.
    You got it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Not more nonsense please.
    You got it.
    Look i'm sorry.

    I don't mind nonsense, but just don't give me nonsense about the nonsense I say, ok?

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    I just wondered if farming practises in general (keeping the animals in close proximity of each other for example) was considered as a reason for the epidemic
    I can't remember if it was the H5N1 or another avian flu outbreak, but I do remember people with poultry runs being advised to cover and secure them. The big problem being, especially if you were near a body of open water that attracted migrating species, infected birds could come into contact, even just by defecating or dropping feathers, with birds that were otherwise confined away from contact with others.

    As for birds being overcrowded, the problem with H5N1 was people having any contact at all with infected birds. So if you're collecting eggs from chickens or catching birds to kill for meat, you're going to contact them regardless of how many there are or how well they are or aren't housed. So the culling campaigns killed every single bird in every single poultry run in many places. And it was illegal to have birds or their meat on sale in the usual food markets. Caused a lot of hardship in many places in SE Asia - but that's better than letting people catch or spread a disease with a 60% death rate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I just wondered if farming practises in general (keeping the animals in close proximity of each other for example) was considered as a reason for the epidemic
    I can't remember if it was the H5N1 or another avian flu outbreak, but I do remember people with poultry runs being advised to cover and secure them. The big problem being, especially if you were near a body of open water that attracted migrating species, infected birds could come into contact, even just by defecating or dropping feathers, with birds that were otherwise confined away from contact with others.

    As for birds being overcrowded, the problem with H5N1 was people having any contact at all with infected birds. So if you're collecting eggs from chickens or catching birds to kill for meat, you're going to contact them regardless of how many there are or how well they are or aren't housed. So the culling campaigns killed every single bird in every single poultry run in many places. And it was illegal to have birds or their meat on sale in the usual food markets. Caused a lot of hardship in many places in SE Asia - but that's better than letting people catch or spread a disease with a 60% death rate.
    I was in Pakistan when a lot of that was going on. Chicken became more expensive but wasn't cut off all together. I remember thinking to myself, if I was going to die in Pakistan it was going to be something, so didn't worry and just cooked my chicken really well. and washed all my cooking surfaces with bleach water. as well as my hands. I'm guessing I got lucky, I doubt that anything I did spared us.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I expressed that I find it ironic that a species which kills it's host has been so succesful at survival.
    Very few viruses kill. Those that do tend to kill only a small proportion. I think there is roughly an inverse relationship between the ease with which a virus spreads and how dangerous it is. Viruses that are nearly always fatal tend to be hard to catch. Viruses that spread easily tend to be more harmless. There are many viruses that most people have been exposed to without ever knowing it.

    If a virus spread easily and killed all its hosts it would soon run out of hosts and become extinct. So they tend not to do that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    I expressed that I find it ironic that a species which kills it's host has been so succesful at survival.
    Very few viruses kill. Those that do tend to kill only a small proportion. I think there is roughly an inverse relationship between the ease with which a virus spreads and how dangerous it is. Viruses that are nearly always fatal tend to be hard to catch. Viruses that spread easily tend to be more harmless. There are many viruses that most people have been exposed to without ever knowing it.

    If a virus spread easily and killed all its hosts it would soon run out of hosts and become extinct. So they tend not to do that.
    When AIDS first started, it just about killed everyone that it infected. However it killed very slowly, thus giving itself plenty of time to have a very successful life cycle.
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    As far as I know, there is no cure for any virus. There are vaccines, but a vaccine is not the same as a cure.
    Even the cold has no cure. Virus ailments have been around as long as we have, as demonstrated by the large variety of virus ailments that affect other animals.
    To expand on arCanes example above, there is also F.I.V. the feline version which is transferred through bites. Also, F.L.V., transmitted the same way.

    Isn't it convenient that there's no cure for any virus? Obviously, it means a conspiracy about influenza.

    Maybe not.

    To describe a rock is easy. But to describe a life form requires a hell of a lot of complex interactions and information. We're only begining to map and understand the most basic of life forms, bacteria.
    Even a virus is a complex structure. And worse, it's often easy to kill most viruses as long as they are not in a host. The real difficulty is in killing one that is inside another person that is as susceptible to what you use to kill the virus as the virus is. "Curing" them is not so easy. It's a bit like trying to kill small bits of flames in a camp fire without affecting the campfire- only more complex.

    Medicine has a long ways to go and a lot to learn, yet.
    Question For You, a virus doesn't kill a host (although hosts can die) it uses a host to reproduce and to spread. It's very efficient and very difficult to stop. It is exactly why they are so successful. The common cold and flu mutate and they reproduce like crazy and get spewed back into the environment passed on to many, many new hosts and reproduce some more. There is absolutely nothing surprising about its success. I cannot think of something more successful than such a "von Neuman machine method" as that.
    The claim you made was absurd.
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    Just stay strong, I get the feeling, you will learn to live with it better someday.
    Last edited by chad; November 22nd, 2012 at 06:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Question For You, a virus doesn't kill a host (although hosts can die) it uses a host to reproduce and to spread.
    That's funny. So when a host dies... it's not the virus that kills them? Didn't we agree no more nonsense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It is exactly why they are so successful. The common cold and flu mutate and they reproduce like crazy and get spewed back into the environment passed on to many, many new hosts and reproduce some more. There is absolutely nothing surprising about its success. I cannot think of something more successful than such a "von Neuman machine method" as that.
    The claim you made was absurd.
    Well perhaps (and quite obviously) there is nothing suprising about anything once you fully understand it.

    But since I don't fully understand it, I find it curious.

    The claim I made was absurd was it? ok, let me just scroll down and search for this 'claim' I made.... Nope I can't find any claims. Did you mean this?:

    "It seems ironic and paradoxical that a thing could survive in nature even though it kills it's host."

    Becuase that really isn't any form of 'claim' dude... That's just me expressing that I find it ironic at first glance that a species can survive for so long even though it has such a detrimental effect on it's environment.
    For you to claim that I made a claim is genuinely absurd, your determination to belittle me is making you look absurd. Pay more attention and consideration to what is said.

    Apart from that, thank you sincerely for your insights about viral culture.

    It seems to me that in a lot of ways humans are like a virus.... We'r parasites on our host, we'r detrimental to our host, and if you look at our host from the sky at night then you can see our structures and pathways lit up to form an intricate viral pattern.
    We'r trying to find a new host incase we kill ours but we can't find a host suitable for us to exploit yet becuase if we go to far from our host's body heat then we die.

    We'r are a pretty intelligent infection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    That's funny. So when a host dies... it's not the virus that kills them?
    The virus interferes with the normal operation of the cell but almost all of the effects you experience from an infection are due to the body's immune system attempting to fight off the virus.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    That's funny. So when a host dies... it's not the virus that kills them?
    The virus interferes with the normal operation of the cell but almost all of the effects you experience from an infection are due to the body's immune system attempting to fight off the virus.
    When a bullet goes into a gut... all the pain is from the nervous system. The eventual death is probably due to blood spilling out... yet it is the bullet that kills the victim, or it's the person who pulls the trigger, or the person who supplied the gun, or the person who built the gun, or the person who invented gun powder... why don't we just lock up as many of em as possible? they all have blood on their hands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    That's funny. So when a host dies... it's not the virus that kills them?
    The virus interferes with the normal operation of the cell but almost all of the effects you experience from an infection are due to the body's immune system attempting to fight off the virus.
    When a bullet goes into a gut... all the pain is from the nervous system. The eventual death is probably due to blood spilling out... yet it is the bullet that kills the victim, or it's the person who pulls the trigger, or the person who supplied the gun, or the person who built the gun, or the person who invented gun powder... why don't we just lock up as many of em as possible? they all have blood on their hands.
    Generally it's whatever causes the condition that leads to death that gets the credit for it. But I've actually heard that most people die of inflammation, but that condition usually comes about because the body is reacting to something else, such as an infectious agent of some kind.
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    ok...... thank you to one person... the person on here who is schizo and said sorry that im schizo.

    I hear 2 voices. they threaten me they say they are gods. Started a year and a half ago and im 24 .

    i have paranoia. i think everyone is lying to me about god or no god.
    Last edited by PaulMichael; November 22nd, 2012 at 10:59 AM.
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    one of the voices i hear is Scottish

    i believe in a third god though i only hear two voices.

    dont know if their inside or outside of my head but i dont have hallucinations , just hear the voices and believe them

    i believe im going to hell possibly forever within a year

    i dont remember if i was christian or who i was before the voices

    i just attach to religious things

    i talk out loud and think the voices are the gods talking but i do not do this in public
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    ok...... thank you to one person... the person on here who is schizo and said sorry that im schizo.
    Hey, you make me feel bad! I should have said that I was sorry to hear about your condition. I heard an interview on the radio with someone suffering from schizophrenia. It must be a truly terrible thing to live with.

    i have paranoia. i think everyone is lying to me about god or no god.
    Sadly, the paranoia and psychosis that can also form part of the disease obviously make it much harder to cope.

    I wish there was more we could do to help.

    dont know if their inside or outside of my head but i dont have hallucinations
    I know it doesn't seem like it, but the voices are hallucinations (and so are the things you believe about them). I'm sure that doesn't help but ... maybe it is one little thing to cling on to.

    i believe im going to hell possibly forever within a year
    You're not. None of us are. So that is one less thing to worry about.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    ok...... thank you to one person... the person on here who is schizo and said sorry that im schizo.

    I hear 2 voices. they threaten me they say they are gods. Started a year and a half ago and im 24 .

    i have paranoia. i think everyone is lying to me about god or no god.
    So you are aware that you have a problem? Does that help how you respond to the voices and the paranoia? I'm trying to find out if being aware of the problem allows you to control it enough so that others will remain unaware that you have a problem? After all if you can fake being sane well enough, what happens inside your head will not put you or others in any danger will it?

    There must be a point at which knowing you have a problem does not help? Do you take medication for your problem and if so how does it make you feel? So many programs on TV characterize these meds as being a problem themselves that the people really hate to take them. Is that true?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    That's funny. So when a host dies... it's not the virus that kills them?
    The virus interferes with the normal operation of the cell but almost all of the effects you experience from an infection are due to the body's immune system attempting to fight off the virus.
    When a bullet goes into a gut... all the pain is from the nervous system. The eventual death is probably due to blood spilling out... yet it is the bullet that kills the victim, or it's the person who pulls the trigger, or the person who supplied the gun, or the person who built the gun, or the person who invented gun powder... why don't we just lock up as many of em as possible? they all have blood on their hands.
    Generally it's whatever causes the condition that leads to death that gets the credit for it. But I've actually heard that most people die of inflammation, but that condition usually comes about because the body is reacting to something else, such as an infectious agent of some kind.
    Personally I always give the most credit to the cause furthest down the line, and some responsibility to all the other causes that resulted from the initial cause.

    Ultimately I blame the absolute cause of existence... for everything, good and bad. Everything since then only has partial responsibility.

    But when dealing with finding a practical cuase... I like to find the point at which something occured in the chain of events, the karma of life, which set of a new chain of events resulting in the 'problem' that I want the cause of.

    So if an elderly or unhealthy man dies of neumonia... which was a result of general weakness, which was a result of cancer, which was the result of smoking, which was the result of aspects of culture, which was the result of greed, which was the result of insecurity, which was the result of fear, which was the result of culture....... Then we have lots of causes and maybe not an ultimate cause as you get into a loop.... was the result of aspects of culture, which was the result of greed, which was the result of insecurity, which was the result of fear, which was the result of culture.......

    But in the case of a healthy person being dead from inflamation, which was a result of the body's immune system attempting to fight, which is the result of a viral infection, which is the result of breathing in air close to an infected person, which is the result of having a wider society and mixing with larger quantities of people from around the world, which is the result of evolution of society... which is a result of greed which is a result of fear. which is where the loop ends, and we find the point 'karmic catalysticness', AKA the practical causation of the chain of events leading to the situation... is the point at which the virus enters the Body... The point at which we diverge from living wild and started to mix with people from different eco systems is too far back in the causation to be considered the practical causation but it's worth considering. (remember this is all hypothetical, I don't really know the causes of any of it, i'm aware of that)
    If man is responsible for the virus rather than nature... then the causation might go further back, something like this: result of a viral infection, which is the result of man trying to learn but being failable, and foolish, which is a result of our evolution, which is a result of nature.

    The practical causation (that which we stand a chance of addressing), might still be the point at which the virus enters the body, but it's worth considering further, deeper causes.

    As causation is often ambiguous in order to really delve into in and put it into a written form I imagine it would be something like a tree where the problem is the based trunk the cause is the trunk, the point where the branches fork out are points where two or more lineages of causation come together.

    Hypothetical tree of Causation:
    Death
    \
    Inflamation
    /
    Immune system activity
    /
    Flu
    /\ \
    / \ Poor health
    / \ \
    cross contaimination \ \
    / habits
    cultural practices \
    / education
    society \
    /\ economic status
    progress Power seeking / \
    / \ /conformity to society
    nature greed Greed
    / \
    cause of nature \
    \
    . insecurity/fear

    When every detail is filled in on a diagram like this then you must end up with a complex pattern branching out from each cause.


    \/\/ \/ \/
    c c c c
    \ \ / /
    ------cause(c)-----
    \/ \/ \/\/\/\/\/ \/
    c c c cc c c c
    \/ \/ \/ \/
    --c-- --c---c---c--
    /\ /\ /\ /\

    This needs work... It would be some kind of web of cause and effect.
    Here's an illustration I knocked up. I name it 'cause and effect entanglement'




    Here's a more complex illustration I produced to comunicate the potential magnitudes of effects that a could arise from one cause... I call it 'the wave structure of deed'



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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Hypothetical tree of Causation:
    Death
    \
    Inflamation
    /
    Immune system activity
    /
    Flu
    /\ \
    / \ Poor health
    / \ \
    cross contaimination \ \
    / habits
    cultural practices \
    / education
    society \
    /\ economic status
    progress Power seeking / \
    / \ /conformity to society
    nature greed Greed
    / \
    cause of nature \
    \
    . insecurity/fear

    When every detail is filled in on a diagram like this then you must end up with a complex pattern branching out from each cause.


    \/\/ \/ \/
    c c c c
    \ \ / /
    ------cause(c)-----
    \/ \/ \/\/\/\/\/ \/
    c c c cc c c c
    \/ \/ \/ \/
    --c-- --c---c---c--
    /\ /\ /\ /\

    This needs work... It would be some kind of web of cause and effect.

    Posting ruined my beuatiful diagrams...
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Posting ruined my beuatiful diagrams...
    You probably need to wrap them in code tags ([code] / \ [/code]). Although, they do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder....
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post


    Posting ruined my beautiful diagrams...
    The best way to get around that problem, is when you've got everything looking just as you want it to look. Take a screen snapshot of it then post the snapshot as a picture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    ok...... thank you to one person... the person on here who is schizo and said sorry that im schizo.

    I hear 2 voices. they threaten me they say they are gods. Started a year and a half ago and im 24 .

    i have paranoia. i think everyone is lying to me about god or no god.
    I'm sorry that I didn't say sorry... just for the record.

    Both of the voices are threatening, never any encouragement?

    How would you describe the voices Paul? are they outside your head? inside your head? do you also hear yourself thinking sometimes? Does it seem simmilar when you hear your thoughts to when you hear the voices?

    Lot's of people probably do lie about what they think of God... Nobody knows so why should they pretend they do?

    Have you tried praying to the most high God? asking for forgiveness? Does this help?

    What is this cause of your premonition? Did a voice tell you that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post


    Posting ruined my beautiful diagrams...
    The best way to get around that problem, is when you've got everything looking just as you want it to look. Take a screen snapshot of it then post the snapshot as a picture.
    Ahh cool.

    How do I take a snap shot mate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Posting ruined my beuatiful diagrams...
    You probably need to wrap them in code tags ([code] / \ [/code]). Although, they do say beauty is in the eye of the beholder....
    hmm that would have gotten fairly complicated with all that.

    I feel that a forum of written comunication between scientists or accademics should feature a 'clip art' icon with which members can draw diagrams, sketches, and scribble maths stuff for the purposes of learning and comunication.

    Then strange you could draw me your interpretation of sub atomic matter/force interactions, among others things.
    The art icon could be like one of the modern touch screen programs or keypad/mouse operated depending on user's operating system.
    I wonder how much that would cost a website?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    I hear 2 voices. they threaten me they say they are gods. Started a year and a half ago and im 24 .

    i have paranoia. i think everyone is lying to me about god or no god.
    The voices say they are gods...
    So why dont they make miracles to show that they dont lie?

    Try to accept that they are like a computer program... they have no moral,
    they have no real understanding of existence and any power they have they have stolen from you.

    Are you in contact with a doctor? Medication might make the voices weaker.
    Perhaps even make them disappear... You need qualified help!
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post


    Posting ruined my beautiful diagrams...
    The best way to get around that problem, is when you've got everything looking just as you want it to look. Take a screen snapshot of it then post the snapshot as a picture.
    Ahh cool.

    How do I take a snap shot mate?
    If you have Windows 7 you have the following tool on your system and I used it both as an example and to provide some instruction. If you don't have Windows 7 try doing some searches for a tool you can download. There should be free ones you can find.


    question for you likes this.
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    Here's another example, I looked up some ASCII Art and did a screen snapshot.

    Ascended and question for you like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Nope it is your brain misfiring, I know because I have heard voices myself, I used to be terrified when I heard baby cries and females sobbing in my bathroom.

    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.
    We have no way of knowing if reincarnation happens, it could happen. It is a darn sight more probable than the existence of an deity creating a universe that didn't need creating. I highly doubt that it is the truth though it is just hallucination. I rarely now hear voices and see things and when I do, I just nod it off as my brain, the more you focus on them the more your brain will make them stronger. Just laugh at them like I have, and get medication and help as well that helped me through it.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    One of my theories suggest possibilities of overlapping but still I would have to do some wide extrapolation to come up with that. It seems to me like you want to believe that your schizophrenia isn't being caused by you. Don't worry if your brain is doing it it isn't your fault, sometimes things just happen for reasons we can't do anything about and it is absolutley ok I know voices can be hard sometimes, just remember they aren't really there. They are misfirings of receptors in the brain believing you heard something when you didn't. That's all.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post
    please do not delete this message

    I am schizophrenic, can we look at the possibility that reincarnation is the reason i am hearing voices?
    Perhaps we don't know everything about the process of reincarnation. I have only come up with: maybe we have some connection to our past lives because we leave something behind in every universe or if theres only one universe in this universe and from every life we live. You might need to know about reincarnation to answer this the way i want you to.

    i have also wondered if parallel universes overlapping (if they can do that) is the cause for my illness.
    Tell me why parallel universes cannot do that.
    Tell me why theres no possibility of me being connected to another universe causing confusion in my brain.

    I want to go beyond the thought 'If i hear voices then they must be gods " .

    thank you. I think because of the parallel universe question this applies to science. or that this is a science question in a way.
    Because of your diagnosed illness, schizophrenia, I suggest you forget all about an answer that you may want, reincarnation, or parallel universes. Believing in a past life or parallel universes could contribute to your illness.

    I propose that you should consider this universe and your part in it, as something very simple. Make goals and a plan to accomplish them which also should include helping others, so that you can take some attention away from yourself and your distracting thoughts.

    This advice that I'm giving you is easy for me to give, but I expect it will be very hard for you to take. But if you could do so I expect your problems related to your illness, will become much less as time passes.
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