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Thread: End timers

  1. #1 End timers 
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Are there any end-timers on here? and if so can you explain why you believe this?. Watched a documentary last night on it and quite odd really. None are interested in enviromental issues and more worrying are happy to pollute and bring about global warming/descruction cause its supposed to bring the second coming and funnily enough by not help sort out the enviroment they are bringing an apocalypse which makes it a self perpectuating prophecy.

    They are also quite happy about a third world war with the middle east happening for the same reason and were not talking about a couple of nutbags where talking a good percentage of americans here

    Also in many parts of africa(think uganda's a main one)where many have stopped using condoms AIDS has gone up majorly, and not bothering to farm for the future or become educated because the end is nigh and guess where the preachers are coming from? yup the good old US of A. With all the war and famine there, its not hard to give them hope and these people are exploiting them and its not just american's who believe this

    Just love to hear all this from an end-timer, how they justify this


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  3. #2  
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    I'm not an "end timer" but I do believe I can give you an explanation. It's the exact same thing that happened to the Etruscans, they prophecied that their time would end (and believing in fate did nothing to stop it) so their prophecy turned out to be true.

    Rather than deciding to attempt to thwart this bleak perspective, as far as I know they allowed it to happen by inaction. This is similar to what is happening today when people say "oh well GOD will fix EVERYTHING".

    Now I leave you with a movie example when it comes to prophecy: When one attempts to stop a prophecy in a movie setting, the movie normally makes the prophecy come true due to the persons stupidity in attempting to stop it (For example, an old movie called Willow).
    While the above example isn't entirely accurate to real life, it's fairly close to the goal line.

    The end result is that every "end timer" will lean on the "end times" prophecy (that nearly every religion including "pagan" ones have) and their beliefs as a crutch to escapism from a traumatic event, which is equally if not moreso as common sas simple inaction, and directly linked to the inaction.
    I personally find it quite hilarious that these "end timers" tend to not see the historical repetative nature in their beliefs and actions and change them before, once again, this "end time" prophecy prominent in other religions (and cultures long since destroyed because of it) destroys the world for the near FINAL time.


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  4. #3  
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    it would be fine if it only took all the idiots out, but this could effect all of us. another example of religion F**king it up for the rest of us
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  5. #4  
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    I'm an old-timer - Does that qualify me for participation in this debate?
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I'm an old-timer - Does that qualify me for participation in this debate?

    i don't like the idea that the people with there finger on the nuclear button are influenced by this BS.
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    So old in fact that I am unable to de-cipher your reply.
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  8. #7  
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    what part? that was a continued rant of further up the page, not specific to your reply :-D
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  9. #8  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    I caught some of the documentary you referred to, but hopped channels as I did not wish to become depressed.
    billco will probably be able to comment on this. The older I get the thing that horrifies me the most is the utter stupidity of the bulk of humanity. It gives intelligence a bad name.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Professor captaincaveman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I caught some of the documentary you referred to, but hopped channels as I did not wish to become depressed.
    billco will probably be able to comment on this. The older I get the thing that horrifies me the most is the utter stupidity of the bulk of humanity. It gives intelligence a bad name.

    you would have thought by now the human race would have grown out of this archeic way and have moved on. you can guarantee if the human race get wiped out it'll all be down to religion. ho hum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I caught some of the documentary you referred to, but hopped channels as I did not wish to become depressed.
    billco will probably be able to comment on this. The older I get the thing that horrifies me the most is the utter stupidity of the bulk of humanity. It gives intelligence a bad name.
    Holy heck, someone actually watches the history channel like I do. o.o it's the twilight zone!

    Overall I do believe that the reason the human race hasn't "grown out of it" is due to the fact most of the human race isn't *strictly educated*. I point the finger on genetics, education, and politics. Ah yes and greed while i'm at it, since it effects all three. Religion is still around because there is a psychological need for it, if there was none then it simply would cease to be. Unfortunately given how society is currently evolving I don't believe religion will be psychologically weeded out for quite some time.

    Unless we're wrong, and God does exist. Then expect your innocent first borns to die and be sent to hell for eternity because you once stole a candy bar and didn't repent!
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I caught some of the documentary you referred to, but hopped channels as I did not wish to become depressed.
    billco will probably be able to comment on this. The older I get the thing that horrifies me the most is the utter stupidity of the bulk of humanity. It gives intelligence a bad name.
    Yet as the first rays shall be glimpsed so shall they be extinguihed.... 8)


    Edit: Should have added "Leaving yet again darkness"
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  13. #12  
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    think it was on channel 4 or channel 5 last night with tony" i have a cunning plan" robinson (sorry bad black adder joke)

    one thing that really got me was that one guy in america had sold 63million books on it and i think its the best selling non fiction in recent years. well theres two things that annoyed me about that

    1)63million people brought it

    and more importantly

    2)this guy(who supposed to know the end is coming)decided to write a book and make loads of money from it. And theres one of the problems in recent years that goes back to the evangelists old"send me money and your soul will be saved"rubbish

    i really feel for uganda though, theres a vast percentage thats giving up on their future because of this and the countrys going through even more hell after war and famine and these rich american evangelists are lapping it up cause all the suffering means"its not long now, the second coming on the way" Its terrible

    All the americans are waiting for something called "rapture" that was written in revalations.

    Also interesting the fact that many religious experts say revalations was
    not written by the same guy who had written some other gospels and should never had been in the bible in the first place(sorry cant remember the specifics on that one)but it was a sort of add-on.
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    It's nice to see he believes he will live long enough to spend the royalties!
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    As far as I can tell the 'end-timers' are nothing more than a bunch of lazy people with overinflated egos that allow them to increase their laziness. Quite sad really.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  16. #15  
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    this threads a bit empty of religious folk defending revaltions, thought there'd be some comments to back it up
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    Perhaps they know something we dont, and are putting in a last minute request :wink:
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  18. #17  
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    Another reason I think the 'end-time' believers are dangerous is that they might not have a vested interest in the future of earth since they 'won't be around,' e.g., global warming and such....

    Cheers.
    "... the polhode rolls without slipping on the herpolhode lying in the invariable plane."
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    Up springs "self-fulfilling prophecy".

    William, if that is your belief you have my full permission to 'Take the Bastard's out!", before they do it to you!
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by william
    Another reason I think the 'end-time' believers are dangerous is that they might not have a vested interest in the future of earth since they 'won't be around,' e.g., global warming and such....

    Cheers.

    thats the problem with them they wanna see all the bad stuff happening in their lifetimes cause of the belief in "the second coming"

    wouldn't be suprised if alot of top end american politicians aint end-timers themselves, that would explain their reluctance to accept enviromental issues.

    America uses 25% of the worlds oils and is the worlds highest user of resources. isnt it someting like we need 2and a half worlds to keep america going into the near future.

    And there seems to be no interest in them slowing down. still churning out massive gas guzzlers in a country with one of the lowest speed limits in the western world.

    Im normally a fan of the US but certain things you cant excuse, and their ignorant "im alright jack" attitude to resources cant be a good thing


    sorry gone off topic a bit there
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    I have just heard my neighbour's cat passed away today, I think we should all stop and observe 1 minute's silence, thankyou all.
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    my sister thinks this raptrue dissapearing thing will actualy happen exactly how you see it on t.v. Her church teaches this idea so they believe it.

    They are misleading themselves as much as anybody else who judges them negatively and with contempt.

    anybody else can not give a rip about global warming doing anything to them in their lifetime either.
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  23. #22  
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    Yeoman, I regret to inform you that what you have to say is nothing more than baseless, blithering drivel.

    You say:
    in uganda they have convinced tens of thousands of people to stop wearing condoms and to stop farming or being educated cause the world is coming to an end
    Who are “they?” A movement this powerful and effective could not be done by a small group of unrelated individuals, but would have to be some large organized group. So what group is it – name “them.” Otherwise it becomes obvious that you are merely repeating something you think you heard someone else say.

    You also say:

    when some rich americans turn up, they have a captive audience. Or is that not something to have an objection about?
    If there was even an iota of truth in the claims of your first paragraph, it would be about half as objectionable as these misrepresentations of what is really happening. Who are the “rich Americans?” Name one of them. This is just mindless, unfounded nonsense. You suggest that I read up. Heal thyself, physician! If you were to really fully investigate what is going on in Uganda, you would know that the majority of their humanitarian assistance is coming from Christian organizations. Unfortunately, because of Muslim resistence, they must disguise their Crhistian basis. I know of no organized atheist organization which is working there. Seems like all they can to is sit back and criticize Christians while ignoring the slaughter taking place just to the north in Sudan. Read up? You need to read up and wise up to what is really going on.

    Then you say:
    Also these same people are happy to lobby against enviromental issues because global warming increase would mean closer to the "second coming" and there is alot of talk in the press of high up US congress and even the American president BUSH believing these views and may explain his reluctance to agree with the Kyoto Protoco
    Again, you have not identified who “these same people” are. I can only assume you are still railing against end timers. I am not sure how you conclude that end-timers are lobbying against environmental issues. It seems to me that the benefactors of this lobby group are the Godless, money-grubbing industrialists who are destroying our planet and this is not happening in only the U.S. It is happening throughout the industrialized world. Many of the countries who agree with the Kyoto Protocol do so in word only. At least the U.S. is honest about not agreeing with the protocol but still active in developing and promoting Green technology.

    And where are you getting this junk that some promote global warming in an effort to speed up the second coming. I read my newspaper everyday including the editorial and op-ed pages, I watch news on TV usually four times a day plus occasionally flipping to CNN or Fox, checkout headlines on my Comcast home page and sometimes on other web-pages and never, not once have I ever seen an article of the nature you describe suggesting that congressional figures or the president holding the views you claim.

    Next, you opine:

    Also if you are a christian, you would know all this from reading revalations and i didn't realise that revalations scripture is only for the "minor fragment of Christianity"(your words)
    First of all I am a Christian and have Revelations a few times and concluded that there are many conclusions one can reach as evidenced by the many meanings of this book which have been espoused by various interpreters throughout the ages. I do not, however, feel that I am bound to one such determination with which I do not particularly agree. I do not know when the end will come, and neither do the end-timers. I have known numerous Christians who have said they believed the Lord was returning within their lifetime. They are dead, poor fools. The “soon coming end timers” do not represent me nor, do I think, the majority of Christian people.

    Then, you ignorantly say:

    Are you saying youve never heard of rapture? or you ignore that part of the bible?
    I have certainly head of the rapture but I have never read that word in any translation or paraphrase of the Bible. I cannot ignore what is not there. Now if you were talking about the phrase “caught up” as it appears in First Thessalonians, that would be a different matter worthy of discussion, but you didn’t say that, did you?

    Next:
    if you put in "end-timers"in google or wikipedia you will see its not an unsubstantiated objections but an observation and a belief in most religions of the world especially christianity
    I am not sure what you are trying to say here. The mere existence of and the recognition of the existence of a certain belief is not the basis of an objection. You must first figure out what it is they believe, how much of a following that belief has, how it impacts society and then you may or may not formulate an objection. You can find much information on the Flying Speghetti Monster but it is difficult to drum up a lot of objection to it since it does not actually represent a serious belief, but merely a silly, ineffective attempt to vilify religion.

    So far, you have not documented any actual individual or group who believe in “soon coming end timers” or any acts or events conducted by such a group other than their attempt to convince others to agree with their belief. And, it would seem, you are guilty of exactly the same thing!!!!

    You add this non-sequiter:

    your intolerance to homosexuality, certain types of play/music/films(including one of my favourites "life of brian"). When have you seen athiests burning books or cd/dvd's

    When did I mention homosexuality or express any of my music, drama, film or TV preferrences. This is just outright fabrication. I do, in fact, watch Life of Brian, but only for the few scenes that feature Sarah Lancaster. I think the story lines are insipid and silly, but I tolerate that just to catch Sarah. So how can you even suggest that I am being intolerant?

    If you really want to further your cause and belief, I think you really need some substance to your argument. Please realize that I am in complete defense mode here, defending a religious concept that I don’t particular agree with.

    However, I find the kind of mindless, senseless, unfounded attack you are making here far more reprehensible.

    You almost close with:


    Athiests have no intolerences as a whole because we are all individuals and have individual moral codes and therefore potentially individual intolerance
    Oh, geeesh. You should get on that show “Last Comic Standing.” You have a great punch line there.
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  24. #23  
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    It's gonna be one of those threads....
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  25. #24  
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    Hey, at least I'm not in this one. Although both of these guy have worse Grammar than me when I have insomnia, so it might be worse.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Yeoman, I regret to inform you that what you have to say is nothing more than baseless, blithering drivel.

    You say:
    in uganda they have convinced tens of thousands of people to stop wearing condoms and to stop farming or being educated cause the world is coming to an end
    Who are “they?” A movement this powerful and effective could not be done by a small group of unrelated individuals, but would have to be some large organized group. So what group is it – name “them.” Otherwise it becomes obvious that you are merely repeating something you think you heard someone else say.

    You also say:

    when some rich americans turn up, they have a captive audience. Or is that not something to have an objection about?
    If there was even an iota of truth in the claims of your first paragraph, it would be about half as objectionable as these misrepresentations of what is really happening. Who are the “rich Americans?” Name one of them. This is just mindless, unfounded nonsense. You suggest that I read up. Heal thyself, physician! If you were to really fully investigate what is going on in Uganda, you would know that the majority of their humanitarian assistance is coming from Christian organizations. Unfortunately, because of Muslim resistence, they must disguise their Crhistian basis. I know of no organized atheist organization which is working there. Seems like all they can to is sit back and criticize Christians while ignoring the slaughter taking place just to the north in Sudan. Read up? You need to read up and wise up to what is really going on.

    Then you say:
    Also these same people are happy to lobby against enviromental issues because global warming increase would mean closer to the "second coming" and there is alot of talk in the press of high up US congress and even the American president BUSH believing these views and may explain his reluctance to agree with the Kyoto Protoco
    Again, you have not identified who “these same people” are. I can only assume you are still railing against end timers. I am not sure how you conclude that end-timers are lobbying against environmental issues. It seems to me that the benefactors of this lobby group are the Godless, money-grubbing industrialists who are destroying our planet and this is not happening in only the U.S. It is happening throughout the industrialized world. Many of the countries who agree with the Kyoto Protocol do so in word only. At least the U.S. is honest about not agreeing with the protocol but still active in developing and promoting Green technology.

    And where are you getting this junk that some promote global warming in an effort to speed up the second coming. I read my newspaper everyday including the editorial and op-ed pages, I watch news on TV usually four times a day plus occasionally flipping to CNN or Fox, checkout headlines on my Comcast home page and sometimes on other web-pages and never, not once have I ever seen an article of the nature you describe suggesting that congressional figures or the president holding the views you claim.

    Next, you opine:

    Also if you are a christian, you would know all this from reading revalations and i didn't realise that revalations scripture is only for the "minor fragment of Christianity"(your words)
    First of all I am a Christian and have Revelations a few times and concluded that there are many conclusions one can reach as evidenced by the many meanings of this book which have been espoused by various interpreters throughout the ages. I do not, however, feel that I am bound to one such determination with which I do not particularly agree. I do not know when the end will come, and neither do the end-timers. I have known numerous Christians who have said they believed the Lord was returning within their lifetime. They are dead, poor fools. The “soon coming end timers” do not represent me nor, do I think, the majority of Christian people.

    Then, you ignorantly say:

    Are you saying youve never heard of rapture? or you ignore that part of the bible?
    I have certainly head of the rapture but I have never read that word in any translation or paraphrase of the Bible. I cannot ignore what is not there. Now if you were talking about the phrase “caught up” as it appears in First Thessalonians, that would be a different matter worthy of discussion, but you didn’t say that, did you?

    Next:
    if you put in "end-timers"in google or wikipedia you will see its not an unsubstantiated objections but an observation and a belief in most religions of the world especially christianity
    I am not sure what you are trying to say here. The mere existence of and the recognition of the existence of a certain belief is not the basis of an objection. You must first figure out what it is they believe, how much of a following that belief has, how it impacts society and then you may or may not formulate an objection. You can find much information on the Flying Speghetti Monster but it is difficult to drum up a lot of objection to it since it does not actually represent a serious belief, but merely a silly, ineffective attempt to vilify religion.

    So far, you have not documented any actual individual or group who believe in “soon coming end timers” or any acts or events conducted by such a group other than their attempt to convince others to agree with their belief. And, it would seem, you are guilty of exactly the same thing!!!!

    You add this non-sequiter:

    your intolerance to homosexuality, certain types of play/music/films(including one of my favourites "life of brian"). When have you seen athiests burning books or cd/dvd's

    When did I mention homosexuality or express any of my music, drama, film or TV preferrences. This is just outright fabrication. I do, in fact, watch Life of Brian, but only for the few scenes that feature Sarah Lancaster. I think the story lines are insipid and silly, but I tolerate that just to catch Sarah. So how can you even suggest that I am being intolerant?

    If you really want to further your cause and belief, I think you really need some substance to your argument. Please realize that I am in complete defense mode here, defending a religious concept that I don’t particular agree with.

    However, I find the kind of mindless, senseless, unfounded attack you are making here far more reprehensible.

    You almost close with:


    Athiests have no intolerences as a whole because we are all individuals and have individual moral codes and therefore potentially individual intolerance
    Oh, geeesh. You should get on that show “Last Comic Standing.” You have a great punch line there.

    My information came from a british television programme that travelled the world and spoke to many of these "end timers", that is what i based this thread on.

    As for the intolerances, they were not "you" but the "royal you"eg parts of the bible belt of america, have you not seen the burning of books or beatles/marilyn manson/ozzy osbourne cd etc? all are quite famous video footage. Also the uproar over the release of "life of brian" and "jerry springer the opera" did happen

    Stop taking it as a personal attack, im not saying all christians but a percentage, thats like saying all muslims are terrorists. Which also isnt true. In religion the fundamentalists always get centre stage for your religion and that is whats seen by the wider audience.

    Someone committing a bad act will always live on longer than someone doing something good, thats a problem thats always been around

    Maybe christianity and islam needs to get the same PR people as hindism, buddism and sikhism does :-D


    lighten up dude, theres nothing personal against yourself or christianity as a whole, if you read my posts there is nothing written that says all christians are end timers, my comments were about end-timers themselves.
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    SHH! Don't do that! Keep it humorous! Let them prove they aren't violent by responding with war!
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    SHH! Don't do that! Keep it humorous! Let them prove they aren't violent by responding with war!
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  29. #28  
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    I regret that I erroneously posted my above comments to the wrong thread. It was intended to be a response to captaincaveman's post on the "basic assumptions" thread.

    However, I still maintain that captaincaveman is, in essence, jousting with windmills. He neglects to acknowledge that even science predicts an end to the world, has shown there are numerous ways this could happen at any moment, and is perplexed by the fact that most of these ways could not be discovered soon enough to provide time to prevent it even if we had the means of prevention.

    End timers, apparently, suggest that the end is just around the corner and, therefore, people should get right with God. I do not agree with that evangelistic tactic. Nor do I agree that the words of Revelations can be used to accurately predict a time frame for "the end." People have been using that book to inaccurately predict a date of the end for several centuries now finding the circumstances there "perfectly fit" current events. Oddly, this is both true and false. They always seem to fit current events, but never do. As I said someplace else, I have known many Christians who believed the Lord would return in their lifetime who are now dead.

    The captain apparently takes up the tack of a History Channel program which assigns far more importance and power to a belief within Christianity which is largely discounted or ignored by mainstream Christians who have the same view of end times as science. The end could be just around the corner or several millennia down the line.

    I watch many programs on History Channel (but did not see this one) and find them generally very informative. However, I do not give them gospel status even if I happen to agree with whatever axe the producer of the show is grinding.

    It does concern me that this railing against Christian relief efforts in Uganda seem to be taking attention from the genocide taking place in Darfar and the general area of both northern Uganda and southern Sudan. The incidence of AIDs in Uganda was around 30 percent in 1990; it was down to 6.7 percent in 2005. So I am not sure how any group can be taken to task. Uganda has had the best and most effective program against AIDs of all the African nations suffering with this malady.

    If you removed every Christian and every American from Uganda, would that put an end to the slaughter.

    I am surprised that no one who has commented on this topic is knowledgeable enough to even mention the Lord's Liberation Army which is something of an attempt to use Bible passages to justify pagan spiritualism. This is not a Christian group, but seemingly attempts to pass itself off as such.

    What it shows me, as a Christian who is concerned about the horrible conditions and circumstances existing in that part of the world, is that neither the History Channel program nor captaincaveman are willing to look at the REAL causes of the tragedy taking place.

    Captaincaveman and others should "heavy up" a little and get some sound and accurate information about this situation before going off on some rabbit trail in pursuit of a non-cause.

    These kinds of baseless, unfounded, unsupported charges against any group are just plain irresponsible.
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    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I regret that I erroneously posted my above comments to the wrong thread.
    Delete button. Right there. By the post.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I regret that I erroneously posted my above comments to the wrong thread. It was intended to be a response to captaincaveman's post on the "basic assumptions" thread.

    However, I still maintain that captaincaveman is, in essence, jousting with windmills. He neglects to acknowledge that even science predicts an end to the world, has shown there are numerous ways this could happen at any moment, and is perplexed by the fact that most of these ways could not be discovered soon enough to provide time to prevent it even if we had the means of prevention.

    End timers, apparently, suggest that the end is just around the corner and, therefore, people should get right with God. I do not agree with that evangelistic tactic. Nor do I agree that the words of Revelations can be used to accurately predict a time frame for "the end." People have been using that book to inaccurately predict a date of the end for several centuries now finding the circumstances there "perfectly fit" current events. Oddly, this is both true and false. They always seem to fit current events, but never do. As I said someplace else, I have known many Christians who believed the Lord would return in their lifetime who are now dead.

    The captain apparently takes up the tack of a History Channel program which assigns far more importance and power to a belief within Christianity which is largely discounted or ignored by mainstream Christians who have the same view of end times as science. The end could be just around the corner or several millennia down the line.

    I watch many programs on History Channel (but did not see this one) and find them generally very informative. However, I do not give them gospel status even if I happen to agree with whatever axe the producer of the show is grinding.

    It does concern me that this railing against Christian relief efforts in Uganda seem to be taking attention from the genocide taking place in Darfar and the general area of both northern Uganda and southern Sudan. The incidence of AIDs in Uganda was around 30 percent in 1990; it was down to 6.7 percent in 2005. So I am not sure how any group can be taken to task. Uganda has had the best and most effective program against AIDs of all the African nations suffering with this malady.

    If you removed every Christian and every American from Uganda, would that put an end to the slaughter.

    I am surprised that no one who has commented on this topic is knowledgeable enough to even mention the Lord's Liberation Army which is something of an attempt to use Bible passages to justify pagan spiritualism. This is not a Christian group, but seemingly attempts to pass itself off as such.

    What it shows me, as a Christian who is concerned about the horrible conditions and circumstances existing in that part of the world, is that neither the History Channel program nor captaincaveman are willing to look at the REAL causes of the tragedy taking place.

    Captaincaveman and others should "heavy up" a little and get some sound and accurate information about this situation before going off on some rabbit trail in pursuit of a non-cause.

    These kinds of baseless, unfounded, unsupported charges against any group are just plain irresponsible.

    This thread was started after i watched a programme on uk terrestrial tv(not history channel)


    I have never made a statement that science hasn't also said that an end could come soon in many different way, hell in recent years we've had global warming, tsunamis, killer bird flu and numerous other diseases thrown at us from the scientific community.

    My point and only point was that SOME christians were going to uganda and preaching what they were preaching and causing many people to give up hope and therefore contraception, farming and education. Of course things are going off in darfur and other parts of the world but this topic was about end-timers and NOT about mainstream christianity

    I will repeat that this is a discussion about END-TIMERS, not mainstream christianity and you, yourselve are aware that these people exist, so why the problem of defending the whole of christianity when that is not who is being discussed

    As ive said, of course other important things are happening in dafour, the sudan, iraq, afghanistan and nemerous other places but this thread is about END-TIMERS. if you want to discuss the terrible issues in darfour, start a thread on it rather than going off topic

    thankyou :-D
    CAPTAINCAVEMAN


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  32. #31  
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    OK, Cap’n, it seems I was correct in one of my earlier posts on this matter -- you are merely repeating that which you think you heard someone else say. It does not appear that you actually have done any additional substantiating research on this topic.

    I am, obviously, not familiar with the station you say this indictment appeared upon. Therefore, I have no way of assessing the station’s reputation. There must be some other Brits on the forum who could either attest to the station’s reputation for objectivity or whether it is an agenda driven outlet. Nor do I have any way to assess the accuracy you have employed in repeating what was presented.

    I happen to be a person who reads and watches a lot of news stuff and what you have said on this topic is the very first time I have ever heard so called “End time Christians” linked to encouraging Ugandans not to use condoms.

    I have found several articles indicating that the Ugandan government is withholding the distribution of thousands of condoms in an effort to promote abstinence as a preventive. Either that or, some suggest, there is a shortage of condoms and the government is promoting abstinence as a way to deal with the shortage.

    In any event, I have found absolutely nothing that would connect this condom shortage with an organized effort of end timers to discourage the use of condoms. I cannot, on my own, conjure up any connection as to how end times would play into this. If the end is coming soon, how would the use or non-use of condoms effect that? I mean, it just does not make sense in the first place.

    This is what makes me believe this production is the result of some agenda driven propaganda front. But even then, it is difficult to determine what propaganda objective could be achieved.

    However, therein is the basis for extending beyond the narrow lines of the topic.

    These kinds of things (if agendized) are often meant to discredit an entire group by implicating and associating them by innuendo. This group of baduzers is doing something bad from improper motives; therefore, all baduzers should be suspect of doing things with malefic intent.

    Also these kinds of things (if agendized) are often an attempt to draw attention away from the real problem or the real cause of a problem. Uganda and the entire region faces far more serious problems and threats than some minor end time belief of a few Christians who may be doing humanitarian work there.

    In the case at hand, even if this information were 100 percent true, the fact that the incidence of AIDs in Uganda has dropped from plus 30 percent in 1990 to just over six per cent in 2005 would suggest that it has had virtually no negative impact on the Ugandan war against AIDs. I believe this is currently the lowest incidence rate in sub Saharan Africa.

    The bigger problem is either that condoms are in short supply or that the government is withholding them in an effort to encourage abstinence. One really should be able to see that this shortage or withholding is far more likely to increase the incidence rate of AIDs than the few who may have given up because “the end is near.”
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  33. #32  
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    i know what your saying, this topic was a reaction to the programme and part of the reason for posting this was to discuss with other people what they thought of end-timers and the implications with global warming etc if the programme was correct(i feel its from a credible source, and presented by a known actor turned historian and not done for shock or anthing like that) but thats all

    The part about uganda was from the comments on the programme by some end-timers that said that these end-timers must spread the word to everyman they could before the rapture would start

    yes a too be honest i havent researched this as much as i could before posting, but it wasn't to prove anything to anyone, just a reaction to a programme
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  34. #33  
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    The very point you have all made has been reflected in my website since later in 2004. We are being led down the primrose path into oblivion by these Penticostals, Baptists and evangelicals in the South and Midwest.

    Our President reflects their views.

    It is not enought just to recognize this ominous trend. We need to do something about it---we, the few who even know it is happening. Most people believe this war with Islam is merely a war against terror and nuclear proliferation. It is not. It is a religious war being cloaked over with a lot of secular rationale to hide the real intent.

    Ours is not the only civilization that has declined, but this time the Earth is far more crowded and crowding in biology results often in "the behavioral sink" phenomenon. Over crowding always results in a population crash. Our only means of escaping that is the eventual adopting of a whole new world view which focuses on science and expanding out into the rest of the universe, that is, colonizing it. We can only be "crowded" when we no longer have a frontier. One cannot get a new world view which we can all agree with by praising diversity.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    OK, Cap’n, it seems I was correct in one of my earlier posts on this matter -- you are merely repeating that which you think you heard someone else say. It does not appear that you actually have done any additional substantiating research on this topic.

    I am, obviously, not familiar with the station you say this indictment appeared upon. Therefore, I have no way of assessing the station’s reputation. There must be some other Brits on the forum who could either attest to the station’s reputation for objectivity or whether it is an agenda driven outlet. Nor do I have any way to assess the accuracy you have employed in repeating what was presented.

    I happen to be a person who reads and watches a lot of news stuff and what you have said on this topic is the very first time I have ever heard so called “End time Christians” linked to encouraging Ugandans not to use condoms.

    I have found several articles indicating that the Ugandan government is withholding the distribution of thousands of condoms in an effort to promote abstinence as a preventive. Either that or, some suggest, there is a shortage of condoms and the government is promoting abstinence as a way to deal with the shortage.

    In any event, I have found absolutely nothing that would connect this condom shortage with an organized effort of end timers to discourage the use of condoms. I cannot, on my own, conjure up any connection as to how end times would play into this. If the end is coming soon, how would the use or non-use of condoms effect that? I mean, it just does not make sense in the first place.

    This is what makes me believe this production is the result of some agenda driven propaganda front. But even then, it is difficult to determine what propaganda objective could be achieved.

    However, therein is the basis for extending beyond the narrow lines of the topic.

    These kinds of things (if agendized) are often meant to discredit an entire group by implicating and associating them by innuendo. This group of baduzers is doing something bad from improper motives; therefore, all baduzers should be suspect of doing things with malefic intent.

    Also these kinds of things (if agendized) are often an attempt to draw attention away from the real problem or the real cause of a problem. Uganda and the entire region faces far more serious problems and threats than some minor end time belief of a few Christians who may be doing humanitarian work there.

    In the case at hand, even if this information were 100 percent true, the fact that the incidence of AIDs in Uganda has dropped from plus 30 percent in 1990 to just over six per cent in 2005 would suggest that it has had virtually no negative impact on the Ugandan war against AIDs. I believe this is currently the lowest incidence rate in sub Saharan Africa.

    The bigger problem is either that condoms are in short supply or that the government is withholding them in an effort to encourage abstinence. One really should be able to see that this shortage or withholding is far more likely to increase the incidence rate of AIDs than the few who may have given up because “the end is near.”

    Im not sure how i could validate the reputation of the station, but as far as i am aware all uk terristrial channels have to be impartial to get through to broadcast

    just found it while typing this, hopefully your on broadband, cause its 1hr 40mins of streaming or download as a 75Meg wmv for media player

    http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle15044.htm
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  36. #35 End Times Prophecy:Evidence for the Reliability of the Bible 
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    Approximately 2500 prophecies appear in the pages of the Bible, about 2000 of which already have been fulfilled to the letter—no errors.

    (The remaining 500 or so reach into the future and may be seen unfolding as days go by.)


    Rest of the article is here:
    http://www.reasons.org/resources/apo...prophecy.shtml
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  37. #36  
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    Haven't you ever considered the possibility that, since the dead sea scrolls are the oldest biblical accounts on record and since they're only about 2,000 years old, that those "prophecies" were sort of...non-prophetic? There are no prophecies that predate an actual event*, such as the freeing of the israel slaves in Egypt (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus_Decoded). Instead, there are only historical writings of some of the events (very few) happening. Even when said events happened in cultures that religiously keep historical records of everything down to their trades and taxes (Egypt is an example).

    Let me direct your attention to a few key areas on the website I'd like to call "pure bullshit". Christians and theists do this often. It's called "making up things on the spot". Similar to suggesting that the "random" evolution of humanity is 1 in a googelplex (sp?), you've just made up a statistic that science can easily disagree with. The average person, however, can't tell the difference and blindly follows it like it's a scientific calculation.
    Since the probability for any one of these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance averages less than one in ten (figured very conservatively) and since the prophecies are for the most part independent of one another, the odds for all these prophecies having been fulfilled by chance without error is less than one in 102000 (that is 1 with 2000 zeros written after it)!
    I'll answer this with a quote.
    75% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
    People fail to take into account the time period of the dead sea scrolls, the lack of these historical "prophecies" being recorded prior, and other factors I'll mention if need be. However one obvious thing I'd like to point out from the first quote is that he doesn't state a scientific source. Neither does he offer the mathematical calculations, or anything else used to validify the statement. Isn't this suspicious?

    *The estimates of probability included herein come from a group of secular research scientists. As an example of their method of estimation, consider their calculations for this first prophecy cited:
    No source. just "a group of secular research scientists". Gee how trustworthy.
    * Since the Messiah is God in human form, the possibility of his being killed is considerably low, say less than one chance in 10.
    Are you kidding me? Look at the situation presented. People didn't have a right for free speech in the days jesus was supposed to have existed, radical ideas were more often than not quelled near instantly by the ruling religious party. The chances of someone like the Messiah being killed are more like 1 in 1.
    Hence, the probability of chance fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 10 x 2, which is 1 in 100,000, or 1 in 105.
    Hence, the probability of the chance of fulfillment for this prophecy is 1 in 5000 x 1 x 1, which is 1 in 5,000..OR 1 in..actually how did he get that figure? No answer again! Blast it! But it's considerably less than 105 with the new calculation. I'd also like to note...the calculation is flawed from the start. I'll let one of the more mathematician-wizards here explain, since I absolutely suck at explaining.

    Using the same deduction on other "calculations" of his, the "chances" of any of it happening are so large that it becomes a highly probable chance. Assuming Jesus existed to begin with.


    To move on to the dead sea scrolls in question, here is a source to validify my age-claim.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls
    As you can read there the dead sea scrolls were dated to be slightly before 100 AD.
    This is largely *after* the prophecies mentioned were fulfilled. The ones that remain unfulfilled have stayed that way for more than a thousand years. However since the dead sea scrolls were written largely after the time of the majority of these prophecies (and could easily be subject to editing) it brings into question their validity.

    In approximately 700 B.C. the prophet Micah named the tiny village of Bethlehem as the birthplace of Israel's Messiah (Micah 5:2). The fulfillment of this prophecy in the birth of Christ is one of the most widely known and widely celebrated facts in history.
    This guy also makes me wonder where he is getting the dates he is getting. Since the dead sea scrolls were only written around 200 B.C.-100 A.D. how does he know when the prophet Micah existed?
    I turned to google and wiki for possible solutions to this issue. Both yielding interesting results.

    After searching with little success, and finally resorting to typing in "micah existed around (inputs years from 100-900 BC)" since that was about the only thing that gave me results.

    Here it says Micah existed in 400 B.C. (use the "find" feature in your browser)
    http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~kuruvill...questions.html

    and here 500
    http://www.carm.org/dialogues/proof.htm

    750 and 686 B.C.
    http://www.muslimhope.com/BibleAnswers/mic.htm

    and finall wiki which says around 750
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Micah

    It's interesting that nobody can agree on a date, but I'll trust Wiki. However all the websites I found (including wiki) can only date bible prophets according to bible timeline, since the dead sea scrolls are apparently not the original bible scripts. This means that in order to say when they were, you have to use bible timeline, and a bible which hasn't been proven to be accurate.
    You're using a book someone was supposed to have written with perfect accuracy to date those supposed writers because the dead sea scrolls offer no assistance.


    To close; what disturbs me most is how he completely flies over the fact the areas of the dead sea scrolls in question were written largely after most of the prophecies fulfillment. Which basically removes all validity in the entire page. Unless someone dares find a historical document that predates the dead sea scrolls that say the exact same thing prophecy wise.
    There is also the final issue of him estimating how many prophecies have been fulfilled thus far. Assuming the bible is truth, a lot. Contemplating the possibility that these "scriptures" and prophecies stemmed from prior history seems to put things into a more skeptic perspective.

    Oh heavens! Before I forget...
    /start occult bullshit
    God is not the only one, however, who uses forecasts of future events to get people's attention. Satan does, too. Through clairvoyants (such as Jeanne Dixon and Edgar Cayce), mediums, spiritists, and others, come remarkable predictions, though rarely with more than about 60 percent accuracy, never with total accuracy. Messages from Satan, furthermore, fail to match the detail of Bible prophecies, nor do they include a call to repentance.
    If you allow me to go down the occult route, there have been many visions or "prophecies" that come in such a largely great detail that it is predicted with utmost accuracy description wise. And taking into account people that claim to have had visions in their dreams, 100% of those visions have been accurate.
    Even people here on the forum have admitted to having a dream that predates them going to a certain place, meeting someone, etc. Although the accuracy of those statements can be questioned, since they're random people that can't be put through a lie detector test.
    Why?
    If a vision is in fact a vision, then it'll be accurate. If it's just a dream, it wont come true at all. So the trick is in categorizing a dream from a vision. His statement is thus unfounded.

    And in the case of the names he mentioned, again, Government = use vision for weapon or survailence if it actually happened. People that actually had the ability would be wiped off the face of the earth and used as a government tool without ever being heard from again.
    /end occult bullshit

    *note: To mention the Etruscans yet *AGAIN*, theirs was a case of self-fulfilling prophecy. similar to what end-timers are doing now days. Apologies for continually mentioning the same civilization.
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  38. #37  
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    a nice analogy is a book written in 2006, "predicting" the 9/11/2001 attacks on the world trade centre using "ships of the sky".

    500 years later a cult can be made from it because of this 'prophesy' which 'came true'.


    My parents are also 'end timers' and creationist fundies (usually these go hand in hand). They are literally more interested in signs, patterns and stupid insignificant numers (barcode 666's, John Carey Antichrist fulfilments etc) than the idea of their grand children having a planet to live on.

    The whole "Punishment/Reward" based moral code sees the achievement of personal reward in heaven more important than leaving behind a world for their offspring to live on. In a strange way the concept of heaven is actually selfish... VERY MUCH SO and ESPECIALLY when it becomes more important than reducing their social impact on global warming and is anti-science anti-environmental anti-left anti-learning anti-recycling and anti-alternitave fuels. The fact that these attitudes often seem to co-exist with fundamentalist christianity is mind boggling. apparently god created the world so that we could destroy it, and then he could destroy us like some kid playing sand castles in the beach.
    The end-timers god has a destructive personality issue. Maybe he has bipolar disorder.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by musicalaviator
    In a strange way the concept of heaven is actually selfish... VERY MUCH SO and ESPECIALLY when it becomes more important than reducing their social impact on global warming and is anti-science anti-environmental anti-left anti-learning anti-recycling and anti-alternitave fuels.
    The concept of the universe being created soley for our benefit is even more selfish. Not to mention only humans go to heaven (the bible says little about animals). People are, by their very base nature, selfish.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by musicalaviator
    In a strange way the concept of heaven is actually selfish... VERY MUCH SO and ESPECIALLY when it becomes more important than reducing their social impact on global warming and is anti-science anti-environmental anti-left anti-learning anti-recycling and anti-alternitave fuels.
    The concept of the universe being created soley for our benefit is even more selfish. Not to mention only humans go to heaven (the bible says little about animals). People are, by their very base nature, selfish.

    the difference is that the universe isn't a man made idea like heaven, we are just the top animals on the planet :-D
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
    Quote Originally Posted by musicalaviator
    In a strange way the concept of heaven is actually selfish... VERY MUCH SO and ESPECIALLY when it becomes more important than reducing their social impact on global warming and is anti-science anti-environmental anti-left anti-learning anti-recycling and anti-alternitave fuels.
    The concept of the universe being created soley for our benefit is even more selfish. Not to mention only humans go to heaven (the bible says little about animals). People are, by their very base nature, selfish.

    the difference is that the universe isn't a man made idea like heaven, we are just the top animals on the planet :-D
    Maybe it's a good thing we havn't managed to colonise other planets then :?


    Interesting idea: The bible sais God created "The earth" not "The universe and all the multiple planets therein"

    I like the ramification of some of that.
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  42. #41  
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    The heavens and the earth.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/heaven

    The sky or universe as seen from the earth; the firmament. Often used in the plural.
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