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Thread: Is Judaism a racist religion?

  1. #1 Is Judaism a racist religion? 
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    Is Judaism a racist religion?


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    Not if you are a Jew.


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    i wouldnt say that with my experience of it. Id rather say islam if some religion is racistic
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    Would anyone like to explain why they feel that the religion they mentioned as racist is racist?

    I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would make those religions come to mind. :?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    i wouldnt say that with my experience of it. Id rather say islam if some religion is racistic
    By saying Islam is racist, do you mean to people of a certain colour, or from certain countries? If so, then of course your wrong.

    If you mean by being racist to other religions, then I'd say 'racist' is too strong of a word. Islam does not accept any other religion apart from what it brings to us, simply for the fact that the other religions go against Islam (my opinion).

    I don't respect any other religion, but I have to accept them, although that doesn't mean I dont respect all the people that follow by them. Most are good people, and they could always become Muslim someday.
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  7. #6 What is it called. 
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    What is it called when a religion maintains that its followers should be treated different than nonbelievers.
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  8. #7 Re: What is it called. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebiu
    What is it called when a religion maintains that its followers should be treated different than nonbelievers.
    descrimination
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    By saying Islam is racist, do you mean to people of a certain colour, or from certain countries?
    nope

    I don't respect any other religion, but I have to accept them, although that doesn't mean I dont respect all the people that follow by them. Most are good people, and they could always become Muslim someday.
    i rest my case.
    Dear judge i belive you can judge right away

    Judge: Yepp, islam is racistic. Case closed
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    i wouldnt say that with my experience of it. Id rather say islam if some religion is racistic
    By saying Islam is racist, do you mean to people of a certain colour, or from certain countries? If so, then of course your wrong.

    If you mean by being racist to other religions, then I'd say 'racist' is too strong of a word. Islam does not accept any other religion apart from what it brings to us, simply for the fact that the other religions go against Islam (my opinion).

    I don't respect any other religion, but I have to accept them, although that doesn't mean I dont respect all the people that follow by them. Most are good people, and they could always become Muslim someday.

    islam is the least tolerent of all the religions and the only religion i know of today that uses violence to force that religion onto other people. Islam doesn't respect anyone who is not of that religion and sees them as sub human(words of a islamic scolar)and also promotes violence towards women(sharia law)and it is written in the koran that women can be beaten basically for not doing as they are told and in the case of a 16yr old girl who was publically hung because she was in the car with her cousin talking without a chaperone

    this religion(even moderate muslims)wants the world to become one islamic state run under strict sharia law.

    And the hate of the west isnt just to do with foreign policy it goes back to their opinion that the west is corrupt and evil because of what we do(how our women dress etc)

    Therefore in my opinion the most intolerant(and yes racist, as we are not of arab decent)of all the religions is Islam
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    HAIL
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    Intolerens: Infinite
    Violence level: Infinite
    Status: Continusly increased hate
    Conclution: Inferior religion.
    Action: Termination
    :wink: :wink:
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    No religion teaches racism, the Quran teaches that it's followers should be tolerant of others. It is the individual religious person who may or may not be racist. There are racist religious people and racist athiests. Most religions seem out to convince all people [irrespective of race] that their path is the true one, perhaps the best two examples of this are the catholic and Muslim religions which exist throught the world. Atheism is NOT a religion it is an alternative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    No religion teaches racism, the Quran teaches that it's followers should be tolerant of others. It is the individual religious person who may or may not be racist. There are racist religious people and racist athiests. Most religions seem out to convince all people [irrespective of race] that their path is the true one, perhaps the best two examples of this are the catholic and Muslim religions which exist throught the world. Atheism is NOT a religion it is an alternative.

    the quran is very vague on this matter and doesn't take alot to take action against non muslims, words like jihad are all too commonly used. if the religion is so tolerent how come the muslim world sent out a fatwa against salman rushdie for a piece of fiction, that wasnt the act of a extremiest few but of a massive percentage. as with the out cry at the mohammed cartoons, the stabbing of a dutch artist, the list goes on.

    I believe that you cannot be a follower of islam and be tolerant, and the moderate muslims don't exist, the face thats shown to the public isnt the same as the one behind closed doors, look at recent uk polls where a massive percentage want sharia law in the world, and another massive percentage says the use of suicide bombers is seen as acceptable against military target and jews(wether thats military or civilian)that have taken land that is rightfully theres


    you ask any muslim on the street what they think of america and see if you get a peaceful tolerant answer, you wont

    i can see what your saying with catholics but i dont see there religion effecting my day to day life and therefore no problem with it
    as you all know im a proud athiest and not making these statements just for shock value, islam is backwards looking and heading more medievel with time. I think anyone whos religious needs help(my honest opinion) but as a rule am pretty much tolernt of all religious groups who religion doesnt encroach on my way of life, which turns out to be all but one


    guess which
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    No religion teaches racism, the Quran teaches that it's followers should be tolerant of others. It is the individual religious person who may or may not be racist. There are racist religious people and racist athiests. Most religions seem out to convince all people [irrespective of race] that their path is the true one, perhaps the best two examples of this are the catholic and Muslim religions which exist throught the world. Atheism is NOT a religion it is an alternative.

    the quran is very vague on this matter and doesn't take alot to take action against non muslims, words like jihad are all too commonly used. if the religion is so tolerent how come the muslim world sent out a fatwa against salman rushdie for a piece of fiction, that wasnt the act of a extremiest few but of a massive percentage. as with the out cry at the mohammed cartoons, the stabbing of a dutch artist, the list goes on.

    I believe that you cannot be a follower of islam and be tolerant, and the moderate muslims don't exist, the face thats shown to the public isnt the same as the one behind closed doors, look at recent uk polls where a massive percentage want sharia law in the world, and another massive percentage says the use of suicide bombers is seen as acceptable against military target and jews(wether thats military or civilian)that have taken land that is rightfully theres


    you ask any muslim on the street what they think of america and see if you get a peaceful tolerant answer, you wont

    i can see what your saying with catholics but i dont see there religion effecting my day to day life and therefore no problem with it
    as you all know im a proud athiest and not making these statements just for shock value, islam is backwards looking and heading more medievel with time. I think anyone whos religious needs help(my honest opinion) but as a rule am pretty much tolernt of all religious groups who religion doesnt encroach on my way of life, which turns out to be all but one


    guess which
    I am not religious either, Like you I used to think that about Islam but an Iraqi friend of mine loaned me an English translation of the Quran. What I wrote in my previous post is based upon that reading.

    Let me offer two Examples: Muslim Women have to cover their faces yes?
    These are the three dress codes for women

    7:26 BEST Dress (to be worn outside)
    24:31 BREASTS (to be covered outside)
    33:59 Length (not too short)

    This is the dress code paraphrased for Muslim women.
    These are the ONLY verses in the Quran that refer to dress.

    And here is what the Quran says about people you do not agree with....

    "You should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm."
    Riyadh-us-Saleheen. Hadith 602.

    I have included the source info so that you can search on-line or within a hard copy for yourself.

    Remember it is not WHAT a muslim reads in the quran that he believes, it is what his Imam tells him it means. Unfortunately the Quran says respect your teachers. So the Radical Imams can place whatever interpretation they wish. Please note that when the Taliban were overthrown in Afghanistan some women discarded the dress they had been forced to wear, they did not renounce their religion not flaunt it's dress code.
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    did you find the bit in the koran about striking your wife? its there.

    i know what your saying about the imams(my spellings terrible)but alot of them see it that way and therefore teach it that way, so in a way it is a intolerent religion because the imams think its ok to teach it and the followers think its ok to follow it.

    even moderate muslims( and i know a few, one of my uncles married one) have alot of hate, pure hate against israel and america and these are people born and bred in the uk and have had nothing to do with them

    and these are the moderates, they are not helping themselves either and its not just the athiest/christians that see this, i know alot of sikh(spelling again)hindi, jadist(between buddism and hindism i think)who i work with who all see the same thing.


    its just my opinion im not trying to convice/turn you im just telling it how i see it Its the worst of all the religions and they are all bad anyway
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    HAIL
    Scanning......
    .....Scan Complete
    Species: 4258 Humans
    Belife system: Islam
    Intolerens: Infinite
    Violence level: Infinite
    Status: Continusly increased hate
    Conclution: Inferior religion.
    Action: Termination
    :wink: :wink:
    Hmm.. I wasn't too happy with the original question in this thread. Anyway, support your views (kudos to billco) and no one will get hurt .

    Remember it is not WHAT a muslim reads in the quran that he believes, it is what his Imam tells him it means. Unfortunately the Quran says respect your teachers. So the Radical Imams can place whatever interpretation they wish.
    More unfortunate - in my opinion - is the divine character of the Quran. This is not inspired by the Holy Spirit of Christianity, it is the word of God. With Christianity, reformation is much more easy. Indeed, there are arabists saying that there is in fact no moderate islam, only moderate muslims who ignore part of the quran. After all, Surah 9 - per example - is not overridden by any newer Surah, and it contains what could be described as 'violent verses'.
    For me, there is a lack of a real approach to 'taking non-muslims' seriously in their concerns about islam when it comes to describing Islam as a peaceful religion. They too quickly focus on the articles promoting peace and such, while ignoring the ones that are not so prone to peaceful interpretation.


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  17. #16 Here is evidence of Jewish racism. 
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    This article says four generations of maternal Jewish parentage is required by Israel.http://aztlan.net/apart.htm Pretty conclusive.
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  18. #17 Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabs 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    HAIL
    Scanning......
    .....Scan Complete
    Species: 4258 Humans
    Belife system: Islam
    Intolerens: Infinite
    Violence level: Infinite
    Status: Continusly increased hate
    Conclution: Inferior religion.
    Action: Termination
    :wink: :wink:
    Rabbi calls for annihilation of Arabshttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1270038.stmLooks like some Jews are doing the same thing.
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  19. #18 Wow its pretty bad. 
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    Even Israeli human rights watchers say Israel is a racist state.http://www.kingfeatures.com/features...aboutMaina.htm
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  20. #19 Here are some examples of extreme racism form Jewish text. 
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    Here are some examples of extreme racism form Jewish text I found herehttp://www.radioislam.net/islam/engl...ead/jewras.htm

    "The modern Jew is the product of the Talmud..."
    "Babylonian Talmud", published by the Boston Talmud Society, p. XII

    The Jews refer to the remainder of Earths inhabitants, the non-Jewish peoples, as "Gentiles", "Goyim". Let's see what the Jewish Talmud teaches the Jews concerning the non-Jewish majority, i.e. those who are not part of Jahve's "Chosen People":

    "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."

    Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

    "The Akum (non-Jew) is like a dog. Yes, the scripture teaches to honor the the dog more than the non-Jew."

    Ereget Raschi Erod. 22 30

    "Even though God created the non-Jew they are still animals in human form. It is not becoming for a Jew to be served by an animal. Therfore he will be served by animals in human form."

    Midrasch Talpioth, p. 255, Warsaw 1855

    "A pregnant non-Jew is no better than a pregnant animal."

    Coschen hamischpat 405

    "The souls of non-Jews come from impure sprits and are called pigs."

    Jalkut Rubeni gadol 12b

    "Although the non-Jew has the same body structure as the Jew, they compare with the Jew like a monkey to a human."

    Schene luchoth haberith, p. 250 b

    "If you eat with a Gentile, it is the same as eating with a dog."

    Tosapoth, Jebamoth 94b

    "If a Jew has a non-Jewish servant or maid who dies, one should not express sympathy to the Jew. You should tell the Jew: "God will replace 'your loss', just as if one of his oxen or asses had died"."

    Jore dea 377, 1

    "Sexual intercourse between Gentiles is like intercourse between animals."

    Talmud Sanhedrin 74b

    "It is permitted to take the body and the life of a Gentile."

    Sepher ikkarim III c 25

    "It is the law to kill anyone who denies the Torah. The Christians belong to the denying ones of the Torah."

    Coschen hamischpat 425 Hagah 425. 5

    "A heretic Gentile you may kill outright with your own hands."

    Talmud, Abodah Zara, 4b

    "Every Jew, who spills the blood of the godless (non-Jews), is doing the same as making a sacrifice to God."

    Talmud: Bammidber raba c 21 & Jalkut 772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebiu
    Is Judaism a racist religion?
    In other words, is Judaism a faith wich discriminates on the basis of race, and colour difference? No. There may be people who profess to be devoted to Yarweh, but are intolerent of peoples because of their race, but that is a different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    By saying Islam is racist, do you mean to people of a certain colour, or from certain countries?
    nope

    I don't respect any other religion, but I have to accept them, although that doesn't mean I dont respect all the people that follow by them. Most are good people, and they could always become Muslim someday.
    i rest my case.
    Dear judge i belive you can judge right away

    Judge: Yepp, islam is racistic. Case closed
    His lack of respect for other religous faiths, does not amount to racism.

    Jan.
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    His lack of respect for other religous faiths, does not amount to racism.
    True. I don not believe Islam is a racist religion. It is a religion which has its own morals etc. Because they think different about other people doesn't mean they’re racists. If you believe criminals are wrong and you have no respect for them, are you a racist? NO. In the eyes of a Muslim non-believers are wrong, as are criminals in our eyes. (I don’t mean that non-believers are criminals in the eyes of Muslims, but I think you understand what I mean)
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    [quote="captaincaveman"]

    islam is the least tolerent of all the religions and the only religion i know of today that uses violence to force that religion onto other people.
    How do you come to the conclusion that Islam is the most intolerent of all religions?
    How many muslims have been killed through violent aggression, compared to non-muslims this year?

    Islam doesn't respect anyone who is not of that religion
    That's not true. This statement may be applied to some followers of Islam.

    and sees them as sub human(words of a islamic scolar)
    What does the quran say.

    and also promotes violence towards women(sharia law)and it is written in the koran that women can be beaten basically for not doing as they are told
    I can't imagine english women, freely converting to a system which allows them less rights, which treats them in such a way, yet they do.
    Are western women that dumb (in your opinin)?

    and in the case of a 16yr old girl who was publically hung because she was in the car with her cousin talking without a chaperone
    Is this an Islamic act?
    Does the quran not teach that whimsical violence (murder, suicide,) is a sin?

    this religion(even moderate muslims)wants the world to become one islamic state run under strict sharia law.
    At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other.

    And the hate of the west isnt just to do with foreign policy it goes back to their opinion that the west is corrupt and evil because of what we do(how our women dress etc)
    Can you give an example of this statement, or are you just speculating?

    Therefore in my opinion the most intolerant(and yes racist, as we are not of arab decent)of all the religions is Islam
    By your understanding of Islam, every muslim should harbour these thoughts, yes?
    Why isn't this the case?

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    His lack of respect for other religous faiths, does not amount to racism.
    True. I don not believe Islam is a racist religion. It is a religion which has its own morals etc. Because they think different about other people doesn't mean they’re racists. If you believe criminals are wrong and you have no respect for them, are you a racist? NO. In the eyes of a Muslim non-believers are wrong, as are criminals in our eyes. (I don’t mean that non-believers are criminals in the eyes of Muslims, but I think you understand what I mean)
    You make a very good and well thought point, a rarity, but a pleasure all the same.

    Jan.
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  25. #24  
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    [quote="jan ardena"]
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman

    islam is the least tolerent of all the religions and the only religion i know of today that uses violence to force that religion onto other people.
    How do you come to the conclusion that Islam is the most intolerent of all religions?
    How many muslims have been killed through violent aggression, compared to non-muslims this year?

    Islam doesn't respect anyone who is not of that religion
    That's not true. This statement may be applied to some followers of Islam.

    and sees them as sub human(words of a islamic scolar)
    What does the quran say.

    and also promotes violence towards women(sharia law)and it is written in the koran that women can be beaten basically for not doing as they are told
    I can't imagine english women, freely converting to a system which allows them less rights, which treats them in such a way, yet they do.
    Are western women that dumb (in your opinin)?

    and in the case of a 16yr old girl who was publically hung because she was in the car with her cousin talking without a chaperone
    Is this an Islamic act?
    Does the quran not teach that whimsical violence (murder, suicide,) is a sin?

    this religion(even moderate muslims)wants the world to become one islamic state run under strict sharia law.
    At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other.

    And the hate of the west isnt just to do with foreign policy it goes back to their opinion that the west is corrupt and evil because of what we do(how our women dress etc)
    Can you give an example of this statement, or are you just speculating?

    Therefore in my opinion the most intolerant(and yes racist, as we are not of arab decent)of all the religions is Islam
    By your understanding of Islam, every muslim should harbour these thoughts, yes?
    Why isn't this the case?

    Jan.


    how many muslims have been killed through aggression, well many through israel defending itself against hizballah unprovoked rocket attack(or were they innocent of firing rockets at civilian target)many lebanese civilians died also but that was due to hizballah hiding in civilians

    why is it hizbollahs attacks were brushed aside and israels defence wasn't, with this you(not you personally ) cannot condone one persons violence and accept the other

    how many muslims died in iraq due to being killed by americans and british? not many compared to the amount who are killed by muslim suicide bombers indescrimately blowing themselves up


    as for the beating of women it is there in the koran, many muslims women were asking what imams thought of it (on tv program sharia tv)and they said its written therefore it is correct and justified, they didnt get it either

    the 16yr old hanging happened, its quite famous cause it went to local elders and her family showed she was 16 on a birth cerificate(which meant she couldnt be hung)but the elders said she looks about 23(ignoring the birth certificate)and when intervied the elders said it was justifiable in islam to teach a lesson to all the other women a lesson

    also i have seen countless beheadings in stadiums full of children in afghanistan of women accused of adultery, and this is done infront of tens of thousands of people. isnt this murder and isnt martyrdom suicide?

    if these are sins there are many many sinners out there that have the approval of the masses(as in the amount of people going to view the beheadings and the amount of martyrs picture around citys)


    "At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other. "

    can you give an example of this, who is it that you think wants suppremacy over the world? i bet you say america(though its made bad decisions and isnt perfect by any sense of the world, doesnt mean it wants supremacy over the world)

    bin laden said he wouldn't stop attacking the america and her allies until america becomes an islamic state and this was before afghanistan and iraq(those are his words)


    i dont understand the total hate of the west, ok iraqs wasn't the best idea, but afghanistan(in my opinion was)but this hate goes back way before both even before the first iraq war(which was justified)and as for the opinion of america supporting israel by supplying arms, what was iran and syria doing with hezbollah recently or is that seen as different

    am i the only pro-westerner on here. i dont hate the islamic world as a whole just i dont see any other religion forcing its beliefs and protests of other countrys actions by killing civilians and no other religion i know says if you blow yourself up to attack opposition of islam then you will be rewarded with many virgins in heaven

    if the whole of islam doesnt believe in this anti-western martyrdom why dont they raise up and protest it rather than say its justafiable. ive never seen muslim groups anywhere protesting terrorists to stop killing but there are plenty of anti iraq ones
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    captaincaveman,

    "At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other. "

    can you give an example of this, who is it that you think wants suppremacy over the world? i bet you say america
    Both sides want supremacy, that was my point.
    Why do you jump to the conclusion that I mean America?

    Jan.

    P.S. As for the rest of your post, can you give evidences of you accusations.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    For me, there is a lack of a real approach to 'taking non-muslims' seriously in their concerns about islam when it comes to describing Islam as a peaceful religion. They too quickly focus on the articles promoting peace and such, while ignoring the ones that are not so prone to peaceful interpretation.


    Mr U
    Mr U, I know exactly what to say to keep the peace. I talk to muslims when I am at home the way I talk to them when a guest in their country - I do not prod with a stick lest I get bitten. I can remember the Vietnam war the nightly pictures sent back. Because a few paranoid Americans saw the spread of communism [amognst some of the poorest people on earth] as a threat. I watched horrified the Cuba crisis, it was a case of "we [america] can put our missiles on your doorstep - but you can't put your[missiles] on ours". I am not anti-american - I just have a real problem with balancing a radical translation of the Quran [written on paper] with a pile of dead bodies in the jungle.


    Just to get back on topic, I have no doubt in my mind that to displace Arabs and give Jews their land because 'God told them it was theirs' in a story handed down by word of mouth was the biggest most ill thought out move ever made. For a race that cries 'holocaust' to treat the people it displaced in the same way as the Nazi's did (in the early part of their evil reign) is bloody disgraceful. - Anyway now that's off my chest,

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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    captaincaveman,

    "At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other. "

    can you give an example of this, who is it that you think wants suppremacy over the world? i bet you say america
    Both sides want supremacy, that was my point.
    Why do you jump to the conclusion that I mean America?

    Jan.

    P.S. As for the rest of your post, can you give evidences of you accusations.

    Jan.
    there was a program for a couple of weeks called sharia tv on the bbc, where muslims came to ask a panel of imams and islamic scholars there questions on the koran(eg clarification)and thats where the justifiable beating of women was said, they quoted some passage but where, beyond me

    this is from it though:-
    'Men are the guardians of women,' and then Allah says, 'Admonish those of them on whose part you fear disobedience, and banish them from the beds, and beat them"

    thinks its from the koran 4:34

    theres more here

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/wife-beating.htm


    heres a bbc link for the 16year old

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

    [/url]


    theres also the death penalty for converting from islam to another religion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)
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    theres also the death penalty for converting from islam to another religion
    Not exactly. This is said in the Sharia. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues. Tough I’ve always learned that the Sharia are Guidelines, once said by the prophet Mohammed, and not actual Laws. It is free to follow these rules, but being Islamic doesn’t mean you HAVE to follow these rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    theres also the death penalty for converting from islam to another religion
    Not exactly. This is said in the Sharia. Sharia deals with many aspects of day-to-day life, including politics, economics, banking, business law, contract law, sexuality, and social issues. Tough I’ve always learned that the Sharia are Guidelines, once said by the prophet Mohammed, and not actual Laws. It is free to follow these rules, but being Islamic doesn’t mean you HAVE to follow these rules.

    are you muslim? i see what your saying but theres alot of muslims who take mohammeds words very seriously, are you saying sharia law isnt taken too seriously and muslims pick and choose which of mohammeds guidelines to use?
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    are you muslim? i see what your saying but theres alot of muslims who take mohammeds words very seriously, are you saying sharia law isnt taken too seriously and muslims pick and choose which of mohammeds guidelines to use?
    No, I’m no Muslim, tough I have interested myself in Islamic matters. Of course Mohamed is taken very serious, for he’s the foundation of the Islam. Let me explain. (I can be wrong at some parts for I’m not an expert, so please correct me when needed). There is a book in the Islam, the Koran. This book contains stories, songs, and rules as the bible does. Mohammed thought that there were rules missing, and that some rules might have a need to change. He decided to make Sharia, additional rules that were more Guidelines then rules. So it’s the Muslims, and not the Islam, who decide to kill someone or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    are you muslim? i see what your saying but theres alot of muslims who take mohammeds words very seriously, are you saying sharia law isnt taken too seriously and muslims pick and choose which of mohammeds guidelines to use?
    No, I’m no Muslim, tough I have interested myself in Islamic matters. Of course Mohamed is taken very serious, for he’s the foundation of the Islam. Let me explain. (I can be wrong at some parts for I’m not an expert, so please correct me when needed). There is a book in the Islam, the Koran. This book contains stories, songs, and rules as the bible does. Mohammed thought that there were rules missing, and that some rules might have a need to change. He decided to make Sharia, additional rules that were more Guidelines then rules. So it’s the Muslims, and not the Islam, who decide to kill someone or not.

    ah, i saw it the other way round, is mohammed not mentioned in the koran then? and why the severe aggressive defense of his name? and or guidelines?
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    No sorry, I made a mistake. The Sharia are a part of the Koran and are additional rules to the ten commandments, not the Koran itself.

    Mohammed is not only mentioned in the Koran, but wrote it himself. (Or actually it is said that he couldn’t write but dictated the Koran word for word to someone else who wrote it down) That’s the reason why Mohammed is so ‘popular’. He’s the basic of the Islam, the last Prophet who TRULY understood the meanings of God
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    No sorry, I made a mistake. The Sharia are a part of the Koran and are additional rules to the ten commandments, not the Koran itself.

    Mohammed is not only mentioned in the Koran, but wrote it himself. (Or actually it is said that he couldn’t write but dictated the Koran word for word to someone else who wrote it down) That’s the reason why Mohammed is so ‘popular’. He’s the basic of the Islam, the last Prophet who TRULY understood the meanings of God

    so that means that that the wife beating still stands then as does the hanging of the 16year old and the threats of death for converting from islam?
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    http://www.authenticsunnah.org/beating_no.htm

    Noble Verses 4:34-36 "(34). Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

    (35). If ye fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things.

    (36). Serve Allah, and join not any partners with Him; and do good- to parents, kinsfolk, orphans, those in need, neighbours who are near, neighbours who are strangers, the companion by your side, the wayfarer (ye meet), and what your right hands possess: For Allah loveth not the arrogant, the vainglorious;"

    (I think this says Allah dissapproves of violence towards women!).


    Ok so apart from Giving a woman 3 chances then a light smack for being a whore on three occasions, can somebody tell me where it says about beating the crap out them?
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    I believe the hanging has to do with a misinterpretation of the Koran. As is the wife beating. Because the Koran doesn’t say women have to wear chaperones nor does it says that the should be beaten when acting wrong.

    The Koran says that women should ‘hide the features of their body’ in public. The Muslims interpreted this a bit extreme and said that women should totally cover themselves in clothes. So in this case it is again the Muslims and not the religion Islam, that made the decision for death penalty.

    It is true that it looks as if women are no good in the eyes of the Islam, tough the Koran also says that women and men are to be treated equally.
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    Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (A. Yusuf Ali)

    Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. (M. Pickthall)

    Jihad is fighting in the cause of God - it is clear from the above two translations of the Qu'ran (one western the other Arabic) that they broadly agree - Violence is for self-defence or for the defence of other muslims - nothing more - nothing less.

    The only critisism I have of muslims is that although they are given the right to question their teachers (Immams) they rarely seem to do this,
    Theyjust seem to take the Immams word as the word of GOD which it clearly is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artemis
    The Koran says that women should ‘hide the features of their body’ in public..
    IT DOES NOT! - there are only three verses dealing with dress code
    as I have printed in a previous post. You have mistranslated Breasts for features!

    7:26 BEST Dress (to be worn outside)
    24:31 BREASTS (to be covered outside)
    33:59 Length (longer when outside) - no guidance as to how long though.
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    the light beating as said in the koran is open to interpretation, some say it means to not leave a mark, another imam says to not cause damage, very open to abuse

    also any beating light or not is still abuse and controlling of the women. the women on the programmes faces dropped when the 3 imams said what was written as it looked like it was ok.


    i understand what you say about people not questioning their teachers, but how are they given this position of trust in the first place?

    there was also a women on there who was physically, emotionally and sexually abused by her husband and was told by her imam that these things should be discussed with her family and not in outside of it, which was hard considering her only family was her in-laws who wouldn't listen too her. its kinda set up for the males in mind
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    the light beating as said in the koran is open to interpretation, some say it means to not leave a mark, another imam says to not cause damage, very open to abuse

    also any beating light or not is still abuse and controlling of the women. the women on the programmes faces dropped when the 3 imams said what was written as it looked like it was ok.


    i understand what you say about people not questioning their teachers, but how are they given this position of trust in the first place?

    there was also a women on there who was physically, emotionally and sexually abused by her husband and was told by her imam that these things should be discussed with her family and not in outside of it, which was hard considering her only family was her in-laws who wouldn't listen too her. its kinda set up for the males in mind


    At the end of the day then, Half of Islam says it's OK - the Other half says not. Clearly then Half of islam is WRONG - we should let them sort it out first and provide a united front before we debate any further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    captaincaveman,

    "At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other. "

    can you give an example of this, who is it that you think wants suppremacy over the world? i bet you say america
    Both sides want supremacy, that was my point.
    Why do you jump to the conclusion that I mean America?

    Jan.

    P.S. As for the rest of your post, can you give evidences of you accusations.

    Jan.
    there was a program for a couple of weeks called sharia tv on the bbc, where muslims came to ask a panel of imams and islamic scholars there questions on the koran(eg clarification)and thats where the justifiable beating of women was said, they quoted some passage but where, beyond me

    this is from it though:-
    'Men are the guardians of women,' and then Allah says, 'Admonish those of them on whose part you fear disobedience, and banish them from the beds, and beat them"

    thinks its from the koran 4:34

    theres more here

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/wife-beating.htm


    heres a bbc link for the 16year old

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

    [/url]


    theres also the death penalty for converting from islam to another religion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)
    Thanks for the links, I will need time to go through them. I would like you to consider the arabian culture before the advent of Islam. You may then be better placed to understand the strickness of the faith.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    captaincaveman,

    "At this moment in time there are two opposing powers, one is religious, the other is anti-religious. Each one doesn't want the other to gain supremacy over this world. If its not one, then it is the other. "

    can you give an example of this, who is it that you think wants suppremacy over the world? i bet you say america
    Both sides want supremacy, that was my point.
    Why do you jump to the conclusion that I mean America?

    Jan.

    P.S. As for the rest of your post, can you give evidences of you accusations.

    Jan.
    there was a program for a couple of weeks called sharia tv on the bbc, where muslims came to ask a panel of imams and islamic scholars there questions on the koran(eg clarification)and thats where the justifiable beating of women was said, they quoted some passage but where, beyond me

    this is from it though:-
    'Men are the guardians of women,' and then Allah says, 'Admonish those of them on whose part you fear disobedience, and banish them from the beds, and beat them"

    thinks its from the koran 4:34

    theres more here

    http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/wife-beating.htm


    heres a bbc link for the 16year old

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/5217424.stm

    [/url]


    theres also the death penalty for converting from islam to another religion

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)
    Thanks for the links, I will need time to go through them. I would like you to consider the arabian culture before the advent of Islam. You may then be better placed to understand the strickness of the faith.

    Jan.

    i understand what your saying about before the advent of islam, but like other religions its important to adjust and move forwards not backwards

    the religion could move more into the 21st century and address some of the issues of the world that arise now, not to see the issues of the world and decide to go backwards to more strict medievel ways and seperate itself from the rest of the world and cause a larger culture gap

    All religions need to do that, some are doing more than others
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    captaincaveman,

    i understand what your saying about before the advent of islam, but like other religions its important to adjust and move forwards not backwards
    Why is the Islamic faith a backward move?
    There are around 700 million muslims worldwide and the majority of them are just going about their business the best way they can, the same as everyone else. What gives you the right to say that they are backward?

    the religion could move more into the 21st century and address some of the issues of the world that arise now, not to see the issues of the world and decide to go backwards to more strict medievel ways and seperate itself from the rest of the world and cause a larger culture gap
    Essentially, life has not changed since time immemorial. The same situations always occur, no matter what the circumstances, and causes the mind and senses the same set of circumstances. These continuous circumstances are what religion refers to.

    All religions need to do that, some are doing more than others
    Muslims, christians, sikhs, jews, etc... are right up there in terms of business, science, technology, art, just like any secular member of modern society.
    What, do you think they all live in caves, giving their numerous wive a good kicking because they strapped the bombs to their waste too tight.

    Jan.
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    captaincaveman,

    i understand what your saying about before the advent of islam, but like other religions its important to adjust and move forwards not backwards
    Why is the Islamic faith a backward move?
    There are around 700 million muslims worldwide and the majority of them are just going about their business the best way they can, the same as everyone else. What gives you the right to say that they are backward?

    the religion could move more into the 21st century and address some of the issues of the world that arise now, not to see the issues of the world and decide to go backwards to more strict medievel ways and seperate itself from the rest of the world and cause a larger culture gap
    Essentially, life has not changed since time immemorial. The same situations always occur, no matter what the circumstances, and causes the mind and senses the same set of circumstances. These continuous circumstances are what religion refers to.

    All religions need to do that, some are doing more than others
    Muslims, christians, sikhs, jews, etc... are right up there in terms of business, science, technology, art, just like any secular member of modern society.
    What, do you think they all live in caves, giving their numerous wive a good kicking because they strapped the bombs to their waste too tight.

    Jan.

    backwards as in going back to the roots not as is mentally challenged definition of backwards

    i mean in respect to same sex marriages, female preists etc also iraq under the rule of saddam allowed alot of western dress for women(my uncles girlfriend was there then) now the elders in control of the areas(not allied armies or iraqi govenment)and are bringing back strict dress codes etc, they have archiaic views on homosexuality that even the chhristian churches are accepting and their treatment of women has also gone back many years
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