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Thread: death

  1. #1 death 
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    I've always wondered, according to the laws of the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed but only transformed from.one form to another, so what happens to all the energy in our body wen we die? It cannot simply cease to exist can it? All thoughts and opinions welcome.


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    Forum Radioactive Isotope Paleoichneum's Avatar
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    It gets transferred to other processes through decomp etc


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    Quote Originally Posted by alan.mcnally View Post
    so what happens to all the energy in our body wen we die?
    The thermal energy (body temperature) will radiate away.The stored chemical energy (fats, sugars, proteins) will be consumed by bugs (or burnt in a fire if you so choose).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    What about the electrical energy in the brain?
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan.mcnally View Post
    What about the electrical energy in the brain?
    Same as the biochemical reactions everywhere else. The reactions will end and then the rest will decay, be eaten, etc.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    the biochemical reactions stop as there is no input into the system by metabolism etc
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    But, there is a spiritual energy too. And everybody who try real yoga meditations or similar mystical practices can know spiritual energy.
    See you Shiva samhita, Sat chakra nirupana, ............... And spiritual energy survives physical death.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelai View Post
    But, there is a spiritual energy too.
    Is there? How is it measured? (bearing in mind that this is a science forum, so references to people just "knowing" doesn't really count)
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorelai View Post
    But, there is a spiritual energy too. And everybody who try real yoga meditations or similar mystical practices can know spiritual energy.
    See you Shiva samhita, Sat chakra nirupana, ............... And spiritual energy survives physical death.
    I trust that what you talk about is more like "qualia" one feel energy but it is not the scientific word for doing work.
    Okay the brain do need sugar like energy to work. Some 20 watt or so. But it is not energy in the way we mean like
    doing mechanical work or electric power. It is more like a New Age misunderstanding or a Shamanic way of thinking.

    The word energy refers to something else used in "spiritual" context. There the word is more like attitude or like
    intent or concentration or focus or such. You can feel that you lose energy or gain energy but I trust much of it is
    pure illusion apart from you lose the sugar like chemical when you think hard. But is that really what spiritual refers to?

    piritual energy survives physical death.
    You would need to set up a reliable science experiment to confirm such claims.
    There is nothing that support it. Only assertions from believers. How do you know???
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan.mcnally View Post
    I've always wondered, according to the laws of the conservation of energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed but only transformed from.one form to another, so what happens to all the energy in our body wen we die? It cannot simply cease to exist can it? All thoughts and opinions welcome.

    You're confusing energy with entropy. Energy is any motion or movement or etc. Entropy is the decrease in orderliness of the system. They're two different things. The orderliness of a system can be decreasing (indeed it is decreasing for most systems.) There is no conservation of order.

    When you die, all the energy remains, but it has no organization. Or rather it has less organization than it did while you were alive. Certainly the maggots that feed on our flesh are imparting a kind of order of their own to it, so the orderliness is certainly not quite zero.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan.mcnally View Post
    What about the electrical energy in the brain?
    The neuron get disconnected, and existing flowing electrical impulses will no longer jump to neigboring synapses (because there's not enough energy to create [neuro]transmitter to send those signal over the gap), so the signal is lost.

    ---
    When neuron network is disconnected: we are unconscious, (ref: http://seedmagazine.com/content/arti..._during_sleep/)
    but when the neurons are dead: the brain is dead.
    Last edited by msafwan; August 10th, 2012 at 05:14 AM.
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  13. #12  
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    Death is an illusion.
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  14. #13  
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    Death is an illusion.
    I look forward to reading further justification of the statement.
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    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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    @Prasit on you quote 'modern scientific needs, it would be buddhism' - Well I think it is the Indian vedic Upanishads. First on the statement 'death is an illusion', (I hope you are a physicist):

    Ask yourself: What are we made up of? The answer is atoms.
    What are atoms made up of? Quarks, and electrons
    What is it made up of? the answer is Energy, from E =Mc2

    What does science say about energy and atoms? It says energy cannot be destroyed or created, conservation law. If we are made up of energy (matter, or atoms whatever you name it) and it cannot be destroyed, then is there death? No, we were here in the beginning of the universe, big bang or what ever you believe, and we will be here till the end of the universe, if there is an end. We won't be in the same form, as human beings etc, since everything in the cosmos is constantly changing (Buddha's message: Nothing is permanent) but the energy or atoms we are made up of will be here, till the end. Therefore, death is an illusion. It is only for our temporary form. In fact, we are nothing but waves in a solid form for this period in time. I said waves because in quantum mechanics, everything is a wave.

    On your quote: Upanishads say, that everything is one i.e. All is one and one is all. From a scientific perspective this is true! Example: you can say the difference between two macroscopic objects no matter how they look alike (no two snowflakes are the same), but you can't say the same to two electrons or protons or neutrons (microscopic objects). They all look alike. Another example: Diamond which is made up of carbon atoms is the same material that makes lead, pencil lead. Another example: E = Mc2, which says energy = matter (mass) , energy is the same for everything. Proof: Free neutron decay: when a free neutron decay's it becomes a proton, an electron and an antielectron neutrino, ask your self how can a neutron produce a proton and an electron and a neutrino? This cannot happen if energy is different in all things. Therefore the teaching of the upanishads cope with physics in a deep way (level), more than Buddhism.
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    SPK,

    You explanation conclude that death is an illusion because matter and energy stay on even after a man is dead. That is to say when a man is dead, the atom that used to be part of the man does not disintegrate, so dead is an illusion. I think the statement does not support the conclusion. If I break a glass, it is broken. The atom that make up the glass is still intact. Will you say the broken glass is an illusion?

    Re: Everything is one. If you want to go down to microscopic level, then there are at least three elements: proton, neutron and electron (not one as claimed by Upanishads). And that's still not the most basic element. There are fermions, bosons, quarks, photon, graviton etc. In short, everything is not one.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
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    Hi, Thanks for reply!

    The answer 'death is an illusion' is philosophical and psychological one. I did not say the atoms do not disintegrate. You did not understand my point. The atoms that make up glass is the same atoms that make us, in the level of individual quarks and electrons. Quantum theory states: one cannot tell the difference between two protons or electrons. When you break the glass, the atoms are still intact. The glass is broken, but is it out of existence? is the information lost? No! Death means total separation, out of existence. I only say this is not true. Therefore, it is an illusion. I do not wish to speak further in this topic.

    On the Upanishads: First Here is an observation: Take matter particles and smash them with antimatter particles -> result is photons. If they were opposite or different things, then the result should not be photons. They should be out of existence, the information must be totally destroyed. But it is not the case. Why? because of E =mc2 . Although there are fermions & bosons they are essentially the same thing, energy (E=mc2). Kindly note: I only wanted to say there is more quantum science in the Upanishads than Buddhism. I do not want to fight over who\which is right or wrong.

    Sincerely
    SPK
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    If you are trying to understand what happens to you after you die, then science can only explain what happens to your body.

    Only religion can explain what happens to the part of you that is not your body. When we say "my mind" or "my body", who are we talking about if your mind and your body are not you?

    So if a person practices a religion and has experiences that he / she believes are a connection with God, then it is reasonable for that person to believe what the religion teaches about things like life after death etc.

    However, so far no one has found a way to test these "experiences" in a reproducible fashion that is the essence of scientific inquiry.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sai Prahlad K View Post
    Hi, Thanks for reply!

    The answer 'death is an illusion' is philosophical and psychological one. I did not say the atoms do not disintegrate. You did not understand my point. The atoms that make up glass is the same atoms that make us, in the level of individual quarks and electrons. Quantum theory states: one cannot tell the difference between two protons or electrons. When you break the glass, the atoms are still intact. The glass is broken, but is it out of existence? is the information lost? No! Death means total separation, out of existence. I only say this is not true. Therefore, it is an illusion. I do not wish to speak further in this topic.
    It sounds like you're saying that death is a matter of perspective. I drop a glass on the ground and it shatters, the glass is destroyed, but a nice new pile of sharp bits of glass has been created.

    The destruction of the glass is an illusion created by our own inability to appreciate the significance of those sharp bits of glass that replaced it. Otherwise we might see it like a caterpillar changing into a butterfly.

    ...however, I'm not sure if I can see my rotting corpse getting eaten by maggots as a new and improved metamorphosis. Maybe I'm just not looking far enough ahead?
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  20. #19  
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    SPK wrote:
    Quantum theory states: one cannot tell the difference between two protons or electrons. When you break the glass, the atoms are still intact.
    The first sentence and second sentence are true, but not related.
    A man may consist of a number of atoms, but putting the same number of atoms together does not necessarily make a man. Therefore, a man is not just atoms randomly putting together, the relation and interaction between those atoms count too. When the relation and interaction change to a certain limit, the man no longer exists, he dies.
    I only wanted to say there is more quantum science in the Upanishads than Buddhism
    I am certain that Buddhism has nothing to do with quantum science. It does not mention the uncertainty principle, or Schrodinger's cat, or wave-particle duality, or Higgs Boson. It focuses on what makes life suffer, and how to fix it. So whether Upanishads has knowledge of quantum science or not, it is not relevant to Buddhism. But it is a pity that this knowledge in Upanishads has been taught for thousands of years and still no one can postulate quantum theory from it. The theory was postulated by someone elsewho had not heard of Upanishads at all.
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