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Thread: I want to believe in God, but my reason says it is absurd

  1. #1 I want to believe in God, but my reason says it is absurd 
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    Hello

    Sometimes i think in do volunteering, then i realize Terrible (with T) things happens to ethical people, and vice versa.... definitely it seems The Divine Justice/Karma don't exist. Or there is no rational method to understand this unscrutable enigma.


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    I feel lonely & vulnerable in this vast universe. Like a lonely child in a cold winter 1930.

    Kurt Godel's Religious views:

    Gödel was a convinced theist. He rejected the notion of others like his friend Albert Einstein that God was impersonal.
    He believed firmly in an afterlife, stating: "Of course this supposes that there are many relationships which today's science and received wisdom haven't any inkling of. But I am convinced of this [the afterlife], independently of any theology." It is "possible today to perceive, by pure reasoning" that it "is entirely consistent with known facts." "If the world [Welt] is rationally constructed and has meaning, then there must be such a thing [as an afterlife]."[21]

    In an unmailed answer to a questionnaire, Gödel described his religion as "baptized Lutheran (but not member of any religious congregation). My belief is theistic, not pantheistic, following Leibniz rather than Spinoza."[22] He said about Islam: "I like Islam. It is a consistent [or consequential] idea of religion and open-minded".[23] [24]


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    Today is a great time to believe the way you believe. We are free to learn and construct our idea of God in whatever fashion we desire and the most exciting part is that science/reason doesn't necessarily negate any religion. If anything, science/reason has the ability to help people appreciate their God even more. The prevailing scientific thought corresponds with what you seem to be implying: if there is a God, he is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life. The more we learn about anything, the more we will begin to form an idea of our own. Its much more exciting to think things out for ourselves and form our own ideas.
    As for volunteering, please do it! The stories you hear about good people getting screwed are much more rare than those who have great experiences; the only difference is that those with great experience don't get air time to share their stories!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brisk View Post
    Today is a great time to believe the way you believe. We are free to learn and construct our idea of God in whatever fashion we desire and the most exciting part is that science/reason doesn't necessarily negate any religion. If anything, science/reason has the ability to help people appreciate their God even more. The prevailing scientific thought corresponds with what you seem to be implying: if there is a God, he is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life. The more we learn about anything, the more we will begin to form an idea of our own. Its much more exciting to think things out for ourselves and form our own ideas.
    He is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life? What doest it implies?
    No matter how much benevolent actions i do, God surely is unaware of it... But, if there is an afterlife; probably in such worlds the same law of machiavelism prevails upon ethics too. How a God of Love could promote the hability of machiavelism as an evolutionary advantage?

    Carl Sagan says The Problem of Evil is maybe the most difficult challenge for today's theism.
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    Sometimes i think in do volunteering, then i realize Terrible (with T) things happens to ethical people, and vice versa.... definitely it seems The Divine Justice/Karma don't exist.
    And. Can't you find any intrinsic reasons to volunteer without having to looking towards the make-believe? It helps others--isn't that a good thing and the kind of society you'd like to live in? Doesn't it make you feel good--improving your self esteem? Isn't it a good way to meet other good people?
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    Good Poste Lynx Fox. Volunteer in an area you personally can see a positive benefit and life enhancing experience for those that receive that help. Don't volunteer where you will become bored. This helps nobody, escpecially yourself. Do it because you genuinely want to see for yourself the uplifting of spirit in others. Here you will see what being Human means, being a positive, compassionate Person. This is the best of Humanity, and this is what will eventually put us back on the right path towards a better world wide Community. There is a Human Conscioness Pool where, when your Lifes work is done, your conscience will join with all those who have made this Journey. westwind.
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    Like it or not, gotta" believe in something! Believe you are in the control [until moment of realization].
    Do you believe in sin? Is it the hand that holds the world? Do your words make enemies or friends?
    Why does all life have to kill and devour what was once also life, to live?

    We are all living through and finding. It is nice to know that we have such a luxury to contemplate.
    This secret sacred knowledge, carved in stone.
    It is in whatever will bring you to a state of grace. To learn to make yourself come to an understanding with where you are and what you may do.{my little opinion, anyway]
    To make the ones around you give you a smile- the accomplishment that will pay forward...
    Last edited by Kalopin; June 9th, 2012 at 08:40 PM.
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    Don't you just love crossroads? You've obviously listened to both sides of the argument. It is decision time.

    Personally if you want to believe something then go ahead. If it's a god then fine. However, a primary belief in God has a seemingly inexhaustible supply of secondary beliefs that goes with it. It's like buying something that requires assembly. Which model do you prefer? Is it possible to just believe there is a god and leave it at that? I think reason allows for a chance of a god existing but the odds decrease as theism drifts away from the primary position with more and more secondary beliefs.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    You should not worry. There is a God. Look for historical, archaeological (possibly more difficult to find) and scientific evidence. I don't believe in Christ. But, realize that you are not perfect, and you do sin (assuming there is a perfect God) and go from there. There are people though that believe in say Zeus, and the Greek gods. I won't knock them, but there aren't a huge number of them. But anyways, Zeus, may not be pure in nature. I'm not sure. Nor may the other greek gods be. So If you are looking at polytheistic religions then you may not want to start with the idea that you have sinned. Otherwise, think of that as a starting point but do not, I repeat, do not feel guilty about your sin. IMO, Christianity may do that to a person. When I get the time I will show you such evidence and let you decide for yourself.

    I ask why someone before on this topic asked "Do you believe in sin?"

    Please tell me what religions do not believe in sin? A list may be helpful to the OP.
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    Christianity makes you feel like crap imo. But thats my opinion. It tells you that you are just a vapor, that you deserve to go to hell forever but God saved you from it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brisk View Post
    Today is a great time to believe the way you believe. We are free to learn and construct our idea of God in whatever fashion we desire and the most exciting part is that science/reason doesn't necessarily negate any religion. If anything, science/reason has the ability to help people appreciate their God even more. The prevailing scientific thought corresponds with what you seem to be implying: if there is a God, he is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life. The more we learn about anything, the more we will begin to form an idea of our own. Its much more exciting to think things out for ourselves and form our own ideas.
    He is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life? What doest it implies?
    No matter how much benevolent actions i do, God surely is unaware of it... But, if there is an afterlife; probably in such worlds the same law of machiavelism prevails upon ethics too. How a God of Love could promote the hability of machiavelism as an evolutionary advantage?

    Carl Sagan says The Problem of Evil is maybe the most difficult challenge for today's theism.
    Perhaps even better than performing an action to please a God is performing an action because you believe it unequivocally; that is, you act from your own conclusions. Your friend Carl Sagan was so utterly convinced that mankind might destroy itself that he spent his entire career benevolently opposed to war and nuclear weapons while promoting ideas of land conservation and preservation. For his efforts, he was arrested twice and denied from the most prestigious scientific awards! He did all of this without any appeal to God or eternal award but only because he truly was acting from his own conclusions.
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    PaulMichael wrote:
    You should not worry. There is a God. Look for historical, archaeological (possibly more difficult to find) and scientific evidence.
    Please help share the evidence.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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    There is a God. Look for historical, archaeological (possibly more difficult to find) and scientific evidence.
    I had thought the whole premise of belief in any god was unshakeable faith regardless of evidence.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    So, it sounds as if all are agreed that there is good and bad, but is there good and evil? If one suffers through life, doesn't get everything that they could have, just so others may somehow benefit, is there a reason coming from a consciousness? Is there a spirit within that understands there will be something, some result of these actions? I am sure it is enough, just to understand what is right and to do what is right out of free will, but is there a reason why?

    As science will answer each question, as to where, what, when, how, but will always fall short of the answer to "why". So where are all the sacrificing, good spirits, from our past, that got us here? Where are all the ones that were bad, got what they wanted, took and didn't care? Was there a reason these takers had the good life, while the givers suffered?

    Please don't judge any well meaning religion on its distortions. Always learn each religion from its preface. There is a good reason for all these stories. This is all evidence from our past. It is almost the same stories from every past civilization. It stands to reason that there is something significant they were attempting to convey. The reason that there are so many different religious factions is due to the fact that so many distort what was a simple, basic faith. Please learn to seperate the people in a church and what they say and do from faith in a religion.

    Have you never wondered why there is such a gap in our history? Why do we not know our real past? Did anyone or everyone, at any time, truly understand how and where life and human life originated? We can't even get our recent past correct. You will find that it is because of the ones doing the wrongs, disobeying there own conscience, that are the reason for our lost history and our misunderstandings. It may be true that the ones attempting to do good are targeted, as why would the bad be punished if there is an agenda to promote this behaviour?

    To know and to understand how you have protected, served, suffered for, and helped the ones in need, or to get it all for yourself now, right now, while you can in this existance, are these our options?

    There is an important parable to study, learn and hopefully imitate entitled "The Good Samaritan". This is an important lesson for understanding how to react in important situations. You will always conclude that "The more love you give, the more you will find"!
    Last edited by Kalopin; June 11th, 2012 at 11:17 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Sometimes i think in do volunteering, then i realize Terrible (with T) things happens to ethical people, and vice versa.... definitely it seems The Divine Justice/Karma don't exist.
    And. Can't you find any intrinsic reasons to volunteer without having to looking towards the make-believe? It helps others--isn't that a good thing and the kind of society you'd like to live in? Doesn't it make you feel good--improving your self esteem? Isn't it a good way to meet other good people?
    Hopeless children makes me think they deserve an opportunity. But the definitive solution is to change the deep nature of the problem, and the unique way to achive it is thru impartial scientific investigation.
    Im a pessimist. No matter how much good intentions some people have, i feel the future will be like Star Wars/Planet of the Apes, ...wars & malevolence will never end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Sometimes i think in do volunteering, then i realize Terrible (with T) things happens to ethical people, and vice versa.... definitely it seems The Divine Justice/Karma don't exist.
    And. Can't you find any intrinsic reasons to volunteer without having to looking towards the make-believe? It helps others--isn't that a good thing and the kind of society you'd like to live in? Doesn't it make you feel good--improving your self esteem? Isn't it a good way to meet other good people?
    Hopeless children makes me think they deserve an opportunity. But the definitive solution is to change the deep nature of the problem, and the unique way to achive it is thru impartial scientific investigation.
    Im a pessimist. No matter how much good intentions some people have, i feel the future will be like Star Wars/Planet of the Apes, ...wars & malevolence will never end.
    To the one who thirsts, it may be just enough to quench it! You may see it as half empty, as others may see it half full. "Impartial scientific investigation" will reveal to you the truth: that there is already plenty of time, wealth, health, and happiness to go around. It is only through the faith, hope, and love that will defeat the pessimism and help to end all the selfishness, ignorance, lying, and thieving.

    It is the design, the purpose to give example. Life may be as a pop-quiz. The more you see, the more you know. Each life is another whole story, that each will write. As no one controls where or who they were born, no one controls what they are taught, but what is learned can be controlled. That is what the search is about. If we all knew the answers, then what would there be?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brisk View Post
    Today is a great time to believe the way you believe. We are free to learn and construct our idea of God in whatever fashion we desire and the most exciting part is that science/reason doesn't necessarily negate any religion. If anything, science/reason has the ability to help people appreciate their God even more. The prevailing scientific thought corresponds with what you seem to be implying: if there is a God, he is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life. The more we learn about anything, the more we will begin to form an idea of our own. Its much more exciting to think things out for ourselves and form our own ideas.
    He is probably more deistic (he sparked the universe using certain laws) and does not have any direct intervention on our personal life? What doest it implies?
    No matter how much benevolent actions i do, God surely is unaware of it... But, if there is an afterlife; probably in such worlds the same law of machiavelism prevails upon ethics too. How a God of Love could promote the hability of machiavelism as an evolutionary advantage?

    Carl Sagan says The Problem of Evil is maybe the most difficult challenge for today's theism.
    I can only offer you a perspective based on Christian theology. Of course God is aware of any benevolent actions you do. However, Christians believe a person is saved by Faith, not by works. Good works are supposed to come as a result of Faith.

    Christians don't believe "without evidence". Christians often attribute things like prayers being answered etc. as a response from God to the prayer. Also, a Christian will often attribute all good things as coming from God, especially when something "coincidentally" arrives just when you need it. The last two days I was on a road trip and something compelled me to pick up some spiritual CD's that I had bought, and never listened to. I was very glad I did that because the CD's explained somethings that I was doing wrong that are both important, and time sensitive, to projects that I am currently working on. Also, Christians find that if they want to overcome any sort of temptation, it is infinitely easier to do it if the Christian spends time with God daily. Twice a day is better.

    Also, Sagan is wrong. Although evil is a mystery, evil does not disprove religious beliefs. Personally, I think that evil people illuminate the "slippery slope" that many people may be dabbling with in their lives.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Although evil is a mystery, evil does not disprove religious beliefs.
    It does raise the question of why God created Satan and evil and Hell ...
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    That is a very good explanation of Christianity dedo.
    Strange- Satan and Hell are only known as descriptions from the Bible so I will explain it biblically. God created angels. They were all given free will to chose good from evil. Satan, an angel, chose to be proud and desired/desires worship as a God. Satan was then cast out of heaven with a third of the angels in heaven and cast down to earth. God created man and gave them the same free will. Satan lied to Eve and made her eat the fruit. From that point, evil entered into our world and a process of decay started. God is just and a just God requires judgement and punishment for sin, so Hell was created for Satan and his angels. It was not originally intended for man, but because by not worshipping the true God, people of the world worship, mainly by default, Satan. Serving their own lusts. Denying God and his Son, Jesus. Refusing to turn away from our sinful nature that we inherited from Adams sin in his act of disobedience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    They were all given free will to chose good from evil.
    Why? And why was evil created in the first place as one of the options?

    Satan was then cast out of heaven
    I thought that was Lucifer?

    God is just and a just God requires judgement and punishment for sin, so Hell was created
    And here am I thinking he was merciful and forgiving, not infinitely cruel.
    Last edited by Strange; June 11th, 2012 at 05:21 PM.
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    They were all given free will to chose good from evil.
    Why? And why was evil created in the first place as one of the options?
    - Because God wants us to choose to love Him and wont force us to love Him. Its like hugging a puppy that licks your face with true emotion and love or holding a hard robotic puppy with only preprogrammed responses. Its the same as being called 'daddy' versus being called 'Progenitor B'.
    Adam and Eve were given an option, to obey or disobey (the fruit tree). And evil aka sin, is the direct consequence of disobeying God. God is holy and just and righteous and in HIm there is no darkness at all. E.g. it is impossible for God to tell a lie.

    Satan was then cast out of heaven
    I thought that was Lucifer?
    -Same angel, just a different name for him. Also called 'the serpent, the dragon, the evil one'. Lucifer is a more modern name which means light-bearer but the original hebrew is shaitan meaning adversary (in opposition to God).


    God is just and a just God requires judgement and punishment for sin, so Hell was created
    And here am I thinking he was merciful and forgiving, not infinitely cruel.
    -OK. If you go before a judge and say 'Im sorry for murdering those 3 people, please forgive me', would he be an honest, righteous, just judge if he lets you go? No. He would be a liar not regarding the law. Evil acts/deeds and even thoughts require punishment by a just judge. Everyone chooses to accept God or reject Him. That is why he gave us a conscience to act as a flag/monitor to immoral behaviour beforehand so we can correct our actions. Our conscience will bear witness to us when judgement on sin is declared.

    No liar, thief, adulterer will enter the kingdom of Heaven. Everyone has committed these sins. Jesus took all the punishment and wrath we deserve for disobeying God on himself at the cross, so that when we stand before God on judgement day, he can vouch for us that we have believed in him and have covered ourselves in his shed blood, so Gods wrath will not abide on us any longer.
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    I agree with Unified that evil is a consequence of free will.

    That does not mean that evil does not have a purpose. If we see someone that is truely evil, it can act like a mirror to see our own faults.

    For example, Satan was the chief manifestation of pride. If I find myself acting arrogant, then I can remember what direction that behavior can send a person when taken to the extreme.

    Since being arrogant is generally not a socially adaptable trait, it is good to catch it early and turn away from it.

    There may be other better explanations for evil.
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    How can there be free-will without evil? How can there be peace without violence? How can there be good without bad? Right without wrong? The Yin without Yang? Believe what I tell you, believe in yourself, live your life. Do not let empty people interfere with what you feel inside.
    Where there is someone or something to love, there will always be something to hate.
    It may sound like circles, but it is more of a figure eight turned sideways...

    You see that there is bad, violence, wrong, hate, but evil is worse than these. It is more than "the seven deadly sins" It is disregard and disconcern, it is purposeful ignorance for only the benefit of oneself without consideration. So, do you believe that evil exists? Is there some "exercisable" demon or is it clinical disorder? Many studies may surprise you!

    Many do not care to be "preached" to, or to be told where they will go when they die. I suggest a "new religion". A religion of YOU. Maybe make the ones around you what you truly believe in!

    [can anyone find the quote, I understand many atheists say this but, did Sagan say that evil disproves religious beliefs? He did say "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god. By some definitions, atheism is very stupid."]!

    One of my favorite "Sagan quotes" is " The suppression of uncomfortable ideas may be common in religion or in polotics, but it is not the path to knowledge and there is no place for it in the endeavor of science." [hint[
    Last edited by Kalopin; June 11th, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    If we see someone that is truely evil, it can act like a mirror to see our own faults.

    For example, Satan was the chief manifestation of pride. If I find myself acting arrogant, then I can remember what direction that behavior can send a person when taken to the extreme.

    Since being arrogant is generally not a socially adaptable trait, it is good to catch it early and turn away from it.
    Do you fear hostility and resentment from others for actions you consider unsociable? When I read the above I thought of a persecution complex. God? Satan? Humanity? All three are candidates for persecutor.

    Thinking that staying as far away from anything you even remotely consider evil so that no harm will come to you is delusional? When you can't bring yourself to be proud then something's wrong.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    If we see someone that is truely evil, it can act like a mirror to see our own faults.
    - The Law (10 commandments) acts like a mirror to show you Gods moral standard. Its not all thou shalt laws, God is just saying to man, 'Look, dont kill each other please. Please dont steal from your friends. Stop telling lies all the time.' To accept the free gift that God has for you, you must first see that you are a sinner.
    - 'Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then (in heaven) we will see Him face to face'- is a way the Bible sums up our view of God now and in the future.


    How can there be free-will without evil? How can there be peace without violence? How can there be good without bad? Right without wrong?
    -In heaven there will be all you have described. In the past and in this present time, we do see these opposites. In the very first book of the Bible it says that God seperated the light from the darkness and made a distinction. It also says God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. This verse shows that light has a holy, pure, good and righteous quality and darkness the opposite.


    I suggest a "new religion". A religion of "you".
    - Sorry to burst your bubble but that religion has already been invented, its called Satanism. 'Do what you want' is their motto. You are effectively worshipping yourself as a God, like Satan believes he is. And this is a high level of self-pride, like Satan has. Christianity says 'its not about what others can do for you, but how much you can do for others'. Jesus, 100% God, 100% man, washed feet. The creator of the universe stooped down to our level and served us out of love. It is also written '(in the end days) people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud and have become vain in their understanding... who have chosen to worship the creature rather than the creator..... changed the truth of God into a lie....and their foolish minds were darkened'
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    If we see someone that is truely evil, it can act like a mirror to see our own faults.
    - The Law (10 commandments) acts like a mirror to show you Gods moral standard. Its not all thou shalt laws, God is just saying to man, 'Look, dont kill each other please. Please dont steal from your friends. Stop telling lies all the time.' To accept the free gift that God has for you, you must first see that you are a sinner.
    - 'Now we see in a mirror dimly, but then (in heaven) we will see Him face to face'- is a way the Bible sums up our view of God now and in the future.


    How can there be free-will without evil? How can there be peace without violence? How can there be good without bad? Right without wrong?
    -In heaven there will be all you have described. In the past and in this present time, we do see these opposites. In the very first book of the Bible it says that God seperated the light from the darkness and made a distinction. It also says God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. This verse shows that light has a holy, pure, good and righteous quality and darkness the opposite.


    I suggest a "new religion". A religion of "you".
    - Sorry to burst your bubble but that religion has already been invented, its called Satanism. 'Do what you want' is their motto. You are effectively worshipping yourself as a God, like Satan believes he is. And this is a high level of self-pride, like Satan has. Christianity says 'its not about what others can do for you, but how much you can do for others'. Jesus, 100% God, 100% man, washed feet. The creator of the universe stooped down to our level and served us out of love. It is also written '(in the end days) people will be lovers of themselves, boasters, proud and have become vain in their understanding... who have chosen to worship the creature rather than the creator..... changed the truth of God into a lie....and their foolish minds were darkened'
    NO! I think you misunderstand, not "you" meaning myself, "you" meaning YOU! A religion that cares of the ones AROUND you. Not about yourself, about others!!!
    You have just arrived at the problem,Communication! When I say "you" I mean YOU, not ME! I said "make the ones around you what you truly believe in". Maybe I should have been more clear, but can't see how you came to that conclusion.

    I am sure you understand that if you want to really care about the ones around you, then you must care for yourself as well. It is not arrogant nor selfish but in giving that you take care of yourself, so that you are there for others.
    Last edited by Kalopin; June 11th, 2012 at 10:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Satan was then cast out of heaven
    I thought that was Lucifer?
    -Same angel, just a different name for him.
    How do you know that?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    [QUOTE=Kalopin;330190]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    NO! I think you misunderstand, not "you" meaning myself, "you" meaning YOU! A religion that cares of the ones AROUND you. Not about yourself, about others!!!
    You have just arrived at the problem,Communication! When I say "you" I mean YOU, not ME! I said "make the ones around you what you truly believe in". Maybe I should have been more clear, but can't see how you came to that conclusion.

    I am sure you understand that if you want to really care about the ones around you, then you must care for yourself as well. It is not arrogant nor selfish but in giving that you take care of yourself, so that you are there for others.
    Well in that case, that religion has already been discovered too. Christianities main theme and commandment is 'Love your neigbour (those areound you), as yourself'which sums up your quote and i am not suggesting that it is arrogant or selfish, but to care for yourself only without those around you being cared for then that is different. Our focus in life should be on others, I agree.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Satan was then cast out of heaven
    I thought that was Lucifer?
    -Same angel, just a different name for him.
    How do you know that?
    Because Lucifer was a name coined by a man and inserted into some Bibles. Satan is the actual word in Hebrew and in Greek (satanas) in the original manuscripts of the Bible. There is no word for Lucifer in the original manuscripts.

    The Vulgate (Latin) version of the Christian Bible used the word "lucifer" (with lower-case initial) twice to refer to the Morning Star: once in 2 Peter 1:19 to translate the Greek word φωσφόρος (phōsphoros), a word, from φῶς (phōs) meaning "light" and φέρω (pherō̄) meaning "to carry", that has the same meaning of Light-Bringer that the Latin word has, and once in Isaiah 14:12 to translate the Hebrew word הילל (Hêlēl).[18] In the latter passage the title of "Morning Star" is given to the tyrannous Babylonian king, who the prophet says is destined to fall. This passage was later applied to the prince of the demons, and so the name "Lucifer" came to be used outside the Bible for the devil, and was popularized in works such as Dante Alighieri's Inferno and John Milton's Paradise Lost, but for English speakers the greatest influence has been its use in the King James Version of Isa 14:12 to translate the Hebrew word הילל, which more modern English versions render as "Morning Star" or "Day Star". A similar passage in Ezekiel 28:11–19 regarding the "king of Tyre" was also applied to the devil, contributing to the traditional picture of the fallen angel.
    The Vulgate translation uses "lucifer" (Morning Star) twice to translate words in the Book of Job that meant something different: once to represent the word "בקר"‎[19] (which instead means "morning") in Job 11:17, and once for the word "מזרות" (usually taken to mean "the constellations") in Job 38:32. The same Latin word appears also in the Vulgate version of Psalms 110:3, where the original has "שׁחר" (dawn, the same word as in Isaiah 14:12).
    The Vulgate did not use the Latin word lucifer to represent the two references to the Morning Star in the Book of Revelation. In both cases the original Greek text uses a circumlocution instead of the single word "φωσφόρος", and a corresponding circumlocution is used in the Latin. Thus "stella matutina" is used for "ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ πρωϊνός" in Revelation 2:28, which promises the Morning Star to those who persevere, and for "ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ πρωϊνός" (or, according to some manuscripts, "ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ ὀρθρινός") in Revelation 22:16, where Jesus calls himself "the bright morning star".
    The English word "Lucifer" is used in none of these places (other than Isaiah 14:12), where the Latin translation uses the Latin word "lucifer" (i.e., morning star).
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    So it doesn't actually say they are the same?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    If we see someone that is truely evil, it can act like a mirror to see our own faults.

    For example, Satan was the chief manifestation of pride. If I find myself acting arrogant, then I can remember what direction that behavior can send a person when taken to the extreme.

    Since being arrogant is generally not a socially adaptable trait, it is good to catch it early and turn away from it.
    Do you fear hostility and resentment from others for actions you consider unsociable? When I read the above I thought of a persecution complex. God? Satan? Humanity? All three are candidates for persecutor.

    Thinking that staying as far away from anything you even remotely consider evil so that no harm will come to you is delusional? When you can't bring yourself to be proud then something's wrong.
    It is called prudent, not delusional.

    Pride is especially important because it may be the most likely reason for some people's inability to perceive God.

    For example, people who try to make mental health diagnosis without mental health training or clinical experience must be drawing on pride.

    What else can you call it?

    So for the OP, the answer is to seek knowledge from people who have knowledge. If he wants to know about how to seek God, he should talk to a priest, minister, or theologian.

    The key element to remember is to seek God without pride.

    That does not mean that you need to be perfect.

    It means that you need to try to obey God's will as you understand it.

    Christian theology says that God resists the proud.

    However, He is always ready to forgive anyone who asks for forgiveness, including the proud.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    So it doesn't actually say they are the same?
    Satan has many names in the Bible and they are all synonymous with him.
    Names of Satan, other names for Satan

    His name is not that important, but the fact of who he is, what he has done, what he does now, and where he will be going.
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    dedo is right in his understanding of the doctrines of the Bible.

    Christians dont try to stay away from evil, we are naturally prone to do it, it is with the Grace of God and his strength that helps us overcome the evil. Evil situations benefit Christians because it tests their faith and makes it stronger. That is why difficult obstacles in life, mainly sin in all its forms, act to refine the Christian like gold. It needs to get hot before the gold can melt and be removed of its impurities one fiery trial at a time.

    p.s Strange, i like that romanesco cauliflower. Fractals are a huge part of the universe and should be considered in every TOE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Satan has many names in the Bible and they are all synonymous with him.
    How do you know that? How do you know that these names are not referring to different spirits/entities?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Satan has many names in the Bible and they are all synonymous with him.
    How do you know that? How do you know that these names are not referring to different spirits/entities?
    Well for starters the Bible tells us that. No nice name is ever given to satan. He has a proper name- satan. Names such as 'the evil one', 'adversary', 'father of lies' are attributed to him. Other spirits and entities are given a name- like the many names of demons- Legion, Apollyon- in the Bible and the names of two angels- Gabriel and Micheal. Derogatory names are always in the context of satan. Some names are allegorical like 'the serpent', as satan entered into the serpent to tempt Eve. His name is not actually, Serpent. The 'great dragon' is another name- he is not actually a dragon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Well for starters the Bible tells us that.
    Does it? Where does it say that all these names refer to Satan?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Well for starters the Bible tells us that.
    Does it? Where does it say that all these names refer to Satan?
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat3.htm is a good website to describe this. Just as you are called son, father, brother, friend, colleague. All these titles are still referring to you. Who else in the Bible would 'the Evil One' be referring to? God? No? Jesus? No? All the wicked angels? No, as it is a singular term- One. It must be referring to Satan, who is the epitomy of evil being described.

    I am not sure what you are getting at with the names of Satan. Does he exist? Yes. Even if you could prove that none of the other names were given to satan, there would still be a satan even if he only has one name. The name doesnt change anything. He is who he is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    I am not sure what you are getting at with the names of Satan.
    I'm just curious why it is assumed that there is a single "evil one" and not multiple ones with different names. I wonder if this is just a side-effect of Christianity being a monotheistic religion and so there is a desire to give him a single adversary.

    No, as it is a singular term- One. It must be referring to Satan, who is the epitomy of evil being described.
    But, to use your example, "brother" is a singular term. Does this mean that there is only one brother in the world?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Ok, I see now. Christianity is also monoantitheistic, which means that there is an original perpetrator of sin in the universe and although he has many legions of wicked angels under his command, he is the main source of evil from his initial disobedience and pride that welled up inside him. For example, nazi Germany was awful and many people did atrocious things through Hitlers regime, but if i said 'The Evil One of Nazi Germany', you would immediately think of Hitler, not all his officers and troops, such as Goebels and Goering, individually doing what he ordered. Or if I said, 'The Kaiser of Nazi Germany' you would recognize this as Hitler also. Or even just 'Fuhrer'.

    Brother- I could say to 5 friends in church individually- 'Hello brother', and it would still be true to all 5 situations, even though its a singular term it applies to all situations. I think that your getting focused on the grammar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Ok, I see now. Christianity is also monoantitheistic, which means that there is an original perpetrator of sin in the universe and although he has many legions of wicked angels under his command, he is the main source of evil from his initial disobedience and pride that welled up inside him.
    Right. But that comes from interpretation not the Bible.

    I think that your getting focused on the grammar.
    Because you seemed to be using the grammar as an argument for their being only a single entity identified by all those names.
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    Christianity is also monoantitheistic, which means that there is an original perpetrator of sin in the universe and although he has many legions of wicked angels under his command, he is the main source of evil from his initial disobedience and pride that welled up inside him.
    - All of that comes from the Bible when you read through it and get a good overview of scripture.

    As for the grammar, I am a brother, a father, a husband and a friend. Just because they are singular words, it does not mean that they are singularly exclusive. I could be a brother to 4 sisters, but nonetheless i am still a singular brother. Or I have more than one child, i am still a singular father. These other titles are not mutually exclusive to me but to everyone who has a title like these. Its a different situation from saying the 'Evil One', referring to one person. If i just said 'the Evil', that does not relate to satan. but could well relate to all evil. However, Gods titles are sometimes singular and still refer to him because in the context of the names it cannot be relating to anybody but God or Satan. Among his names are 'Just', 'the Righteous One', 'the alpha and the omega'. They are descriptions of character that are exclusive to God. As God is Truth. God is Light. I cannot say that I am Truth, for I lie. I cannot say that I am the Light of the World, because I am not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Christianity is also monoantitheistic, which means that there is an original perpetrator of sin in the universe and although he has many legions of wicked angels under his command, he is the main source of evil from his initial disobedience and pride that welled up inside him.
    - All of that comes from the Bible when you read through it and get a good overview of scripture.
    So are you agreeing that is interpretation, it is not stated in the Bible?
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    No, it is all stated in the Bible and it is not my own interpretation of it.
    'An original perpetrator of sin'- You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you (Ezekiel). Speaking of Satan alone.

    'He has many legions of wicked angels' - And the angels which kept not their first estate (heaven), but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day (Jude)
    - Then he [Jesus] will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and HIS angels." (Matthew)
    - And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. (Revelation)

    'pride that welled up inside him'-
    "How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Lucifer, son of Dawn!
    How you are cut down to the ground,
    you who laid the nations low!
    You said in your heart,
    I will ascend to heaven;
    above the stars of God
    I will set my throne on high;
    I will sit on the mount of assembly
    in the far reaches of the north;

    From this verse in Isaiah we can see that Satans pride is such that he thinks he is like God. An equal. I will x 3 are Satans words.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    No, it is all stated in the Bible and it is not my own interpretation of it.
    Does it really say that Abbadon, Apollyon, Beelzebub, Belial, the King of Babylon, the King of Tyre, Leviathan, Lucifer, etc. are all names for Satan? If so, where?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Hello

    Sometimes i think in do volunteering, then i realize Terrible (with T) things happens to ethical people, and vice versa.... definitely it seems The Divine Justice/Karma don't exist. Or there is no rational method to understand this unscrutable enigma.
    We are not judged by God and thus there is no such thing as devine justice, the concept of God is a creation of man, we are judged by nature and that has way different rules than our idea of ethics or morality.

    Why did the mouse get eaten by the owl, was not that mouse ethical? Did it deserve to be eaten? what if it had children? The point is we, though at times we think of ourselves removed, are part of and governed by nature and rules of reproduction and survival, anything else is just our own mental construct for helping deal with each other.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    No, it is all stated in the Bible and it is not my own interpretation of it.
    Does it really say that Abbadon, Apollyon, Beelzebub, Belial, the King of Babylon, the King of Tyre, Leviathan, Lucifer, etc. are all names for Satan? If so, where?
    Yes. They are used as idioms for satan. Other titles are allegorical, metaphorical or use similes. They are over 220 different word structures in the Bible to describe passages including puns and jokes and twists on words. I personally believe that some of those names are demons and not satan himself but the vast majority are names for him.

    “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.” 1 Peter 5:8
    - you see, satan is not a literal roaring lion. but his actions are described by ascribing him a title such as this.

    The Bible calls Satan by many different names. Each name has a slightly different meaning. The many other names for Satan give a fuller picture of who Satan is and what he does. There are more names for Satan in the Bible than for anyone else except Jesus Christ.

    You ask, 'If so, 'Where?', on the website you got those names from on the link I provided, for each name it gives a book, chapter and verse reference for every name used of satan. If you are still unsure after that if it is really talking about satan. read the whole chapter to get the context and see for yourself.
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    What is your proof that those names are idioms of Satan?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    What is your proof that those names are idioms of Satan?
    Apart from the fact that it is automatically inferred from the surrounding passages, the names do not fit the criteria of any other being. The proof is that nobody else in the Bible is called by those names as simple as that. We know that Satan tempted Eve, a serpent tempted Eve, therefore when the Bible speaks of 'that old serpent' it is automatically partnered with Satan.

    If you dont believe that Satan has these names, which I dont think you do, then who are the names really being prescribed to?

    I am not sure what the purpose of discussing Satans other names has? It doesnt change the fact that there is a Satan, that is not disputed. The names of Satan here are acting as a distraction to the truth of what is being said about Jesus.
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    So it is your interpretation that the names are alt names of Satan?

    It is debated if there is a Satan, as it is debated if Christianity is valid or not as a whole
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    So it is your interpretation that the names are alt names of Satan?

    It is debated if there is a Satan, as it is debated if Christianity is valid or not as a whole
    No. It is not my interpretation. It is what the Bible itself suggests are appropriate names for a fallen angel originally called satan. It often takes more than one verse to relate a name to satan, but it is more than clearly implied who it is talking about in the CONTEXT of the name, if you have ever read around the odd verse.

    You are focusing more on the created things of this world instead of giving glory to the creator, and at the same time sidestepping the real issue- If there is a God, you will be accountable to Him. Because of the fact that you dont want to be accountable for your actions before a holy God, and you want to do whatever you want with no restrictions, you simply deny His existence and by doing so, deceive yourself of the reality of life.

    I can only tell you about God, it is up to the Holy Spirit to convince you of Him. You have eyes to see, yet are blind and ears to hear yet are deaf. I hope that God has called you to have these discusssions because your eternal salvation depends on whether you believe what Jesus did for you or not.
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    I was wondering when you would start outright preaching....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalopin View Post

    Have you never wondered why there is such a gap in our history? Why do we not know our real past? Did anyone or everyone, at any time, truly understand how and where life and human life originated? We can't even get our recent past correct. You will find that it is because of the ones doing the wrongs, disobeying there own conscience, that are the reason for our lost history and our misunderstandings. It may be true that the ones attempting to do good are targeted, as why would the bad be punished if there is an agenda to promote this behaviour?
    History is full of book burnings. Times in history where the current reigning regime sought to destroy all memory of any previous system, so they wouldn't have the worry about people choosing to prefer the old ways and having a revolt or something like that.

    A historically recent example would be the Spanish seeking out and burning all the texts they could find among the Aztec and other native American peoples. Older examples might include a huge book burning that happened in China after Shin Shi Huang took power and first unified China into one nation, or the Christians sacking the Great Library of Alexandria.

    The thing is, we'll never know what those texts contained now. It probably wasn't all just cooking recipes or children's stories. It's likely a lot of good historical texts were lost as well.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    It is called prudent, not delusional.

    Pride is especially important because it may be the most likely reason for some people's inability to perceive God.

    For example, people who try to make mental health diagnosis without mental health training or clinical experience must be drawing on pride.
    You never know.

    Obviously you are not proud of being a Christian nor are you proud of God. You really aren't proud of anything I gather. So at this point you are not proud of not being proud, see where I'm going?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    [h=1]Obviously you are not proud of being a Christian nor are you proud of God. You really aren't proud of anything I gather. So at this point you are not proud of not being proud, see where I'm going?

    The Two Kinds Of Pride by Wayne Blank of Bible Study - The Two Kinds Of Pride

    Selfish
    pride can be defined as "excessive confidence or glorification in one's self, possessions or nation." The concept is found in The Bible, along with pride itself, in words such as arrogance, haughtiness and conceit, among others, all of which are opposite of Godly humility. The wrongness of self-centered pride is essentially twofold. On a spiritual level, it inevitably leads to disregard, disrespect and disobedience to God i.e. self-centered pride is primarily what transformed the once-righteous Lucifer into the wicked Satan after he became too impressed with himself: "I will make myself like the Most High" (Isaiah 14:14 RSV, see also Born To Be Wild?). On a worldly level, selfish pride very often results in self-destructive behavior because, while a form of self-delusion, it isn't necessarily as much an overestimation of one's self as it is a dangerous underestimation of others, hence "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18 RSV). The Bible also speaks of a good pride, but it differs greatly from selfish pride (see below)


    What Does The Bible Say About Pride?
    Selfish pride is sin:
    "Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate." (Proverbs 8:13 RSV)
    "For the sin of their mouths, the words of their lips, let them be trapped in their pride" (Psalm 59:12 RSV)
    "For the wicked boasts of the desires of his heart, and the man greedy for gain curses and renounces The Lord. In the pride of his countenance the wicked does not seek Him" (Psalm 10:3-4 RSV) "When pride comes, then comes disgrace; but with the humble is wisdom." (Proverbs 11:2 RSV)
    God will humble those who don't humble themselves:
    "And if in spite of this you will not hearken to me, then I will chastise you again sevenfold for your sins, and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like brass; and your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit. Then if you walk contrary to me, and will not hearken to me, I will bring more plagues upon you, sevenfold as many as your sins." (Leviticus 26:18-21 RSV)
    "The haughty looks of man shall be brought low, and the pride of men shall be humbled; and The Lord alone will be exalted in that day." (Isaiah 2:11 RSV) "A man's pride will bring him low, but he who is lowly in spirit will obtain honor" (Proverbs 29:23 RSV)
    The Bible also speaks of a good form of pride, but there is a difference - it's based on a pride for others who are living in obedience to God.
    "Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God. Open your hearts to us; we have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have taken advantage of no one. I do not say this to condemn you, for I said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. I have great confidence in you; I have great pride in you" (2 Corinthians 7:1-4 RSV) "We are not commending ourselves to you again but giving you cause to be proud of us, so that you may be able to answer those who pride themselves on a man's position and not on his heart." (2 Corinthians 5:12 RSV)
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    Hmmm more preaching.....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    Just showing there are two different kinds of proud, thats all. As zinjanthropos seemed to think there was only one.
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    It's probably a linguistic limitation. English needs more than one word, perhaps. Or maybe the appropriate word for one kind of pride would be "vanity", while the other would be something more along the lines of "personal investment"?

    Anyway, the Bible makes no clear distinction. If you're going to preach that there are two kinds of "pride", just remember that you're "adding to" the Bible in so doing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Selfish pride is sin: On a worldly level, selfish pride very often results in self-destructive behavior because, while a form of self-delusion, it isn't necessarily as much an overestimation of one's self as it is a dangerous underestimation of others,
    Read the quote carefully. Selfish pride is not arrogance by definition (an overestimation of one's self) and neither is it really pride because it's a delusion which is also a sin. Imagine, it's a sin to be deluded (to have a mental disorder) yet If I were to underestimate someone else's importance then I would definitely not have pride in them thereby satisfying god's requirement. Can you explain?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Unified3,

    We don't allow preaching. You should be trying to use reason and science to back your opinions if possible.

    This is an official warning.
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    Just a note on biblical names and misinterpretation;
    I happen to have an NIV Study Bible here let me paraphrase, "Lucifer is often misrepresented as another name for Satan where in truth it was a name, meaning Morning-Star, for the King of Babylon Heylel. The word Satan literally means adversary and is the only name actually used to reference the fallen angel. Further research shows that the names Abaddon and Apolyon are interchangeable for one of the "Fallen". Beelzebub, Baal, Belial are all names of angels who were cast out. "A third of all the angels rebelled and were cast from heaven." That is alot of angels. The name of the Angel who fomented the rebellion was, according to many sources of esoteric christian study and kabalism, wiped from all records of heaven and he was cursed to be forever known as Satan or the adversary. I have spent many years studying religion in both its primary, mass-consumer forms and its more esoteric and occult natures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    It is called prudent, not delusional.

    Pride is especially important because it may be the most likely reason for some people's inability to perceive God.

    For example, people who try to make mental health diagnosis without mental health training or clinical experience must be drawing on pride.
    You never know.

    Obviously you are not proud of being a Christian nor are you proud of God. You really aren't proud of anything I gather. So at this point you are not proud of not being proud, see where I'm going?
    You lost me in the circular argument.

    There is a difference between delusion from a mental disorder such as schizophrenia vs. delusions from pride that can afflict any of us.

    Haven't you ever started imagining something that lead to a course that you later regretted? One of the most common scenarios for this is to imagine yourself with some expensive consumer item that you really don't need and cannot afford.

    Truely evil people who imagine things like "a 1000 year empire" show us where prideful thinking can lead a person when taken to extreme.

    I am grateful to be a Christian. I am not sure what would be your criteria for being "proud to be a Christian, or anything else". In general, Christian theology says that pride comes before destruction that implies that pride is is a form of self-delusion. Humility comes before honor in Christian theology.

    Christians believe that it is there obligation to properly represent their faith in a way that will encourage other people to seek God. I don't think that arguing accomplishes this. Interestingly, one theological lesson I recently heard said that this is primarily accomplished by self-sacrifice including praying for others. To me, this implies that the ability to perceive God is a gift can result either from the efforts of the seeker, or from the efforts of another person.

    There may be good reasons why some people have a hard time with seeking God from a theological perspective. The seeker could have negleted repentance that is an important element in removing sin that separates a person from God. Or the person could have some talent that if misused could lead to significant harm. Such a person might need to be closer to God so as not to misuse the talent. Or God could have a reason. It is known that even Mother Teresa had a long dark period when she could not perceive God. In her case, I assume the theological reason would be to encourage the rest of us to persevere through our own dark periods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    If there is a God, you will be accountable to Him.
    There is no evidentiary support for this position. Let us concede, for the moment, that there is a God. There is no particular reason, other than some ancient texts, to suppose that this God has an interest in humanity. There is no particular reason to suppose that even if he has this interest that our personalities survive death. (Nor does the non-existence of a God preclude an after-life.) You have taken a very narrow position based upon unsubtantiated faith in an ancient text. This is a very weak position from which to mount a logical or scientific argument.


    Because of the fact that you dont want to be accountable for your actions before a holy God, and you want to do whatever you want with no restrictions,
    This is offensive and reprehensible. I place many restrictions on my behaviour out of respect for my fellow humans and for life in general. More than that I take specific actions that are aimed at what I perceive to be the greater good. In this I am no different from millions of others. I do so, not out of fear of eternal damnation, but out of a belief that such actions are right and proper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    You have taken a very narrow position based upon unsubtantiated faith in an ancient text.
    I actually take that as an encouragement. Christians are commanded to take the narrow path:
    Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

    The Bible talks alot about itself, and how reading and studying it is profitable for everything. Jesus is the Word, the Bible is the Word of God. Our relationship with God on earth is perfected through reading the Bible, so why would we want to come away from that solid rock and try to give evidence to an unbelieving generation?

    If we know God by the Word, then our faith has to be in Him and we believe that the Bible is written through men, via the Holy Spirit. Over 60 books of the Bible, over 40 different authors, across thousands of years, how is the Bible unsubstantiated. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible is of extraterrestrial (not alien/ UFO) origin. From the perspective of an omnipresent God who can see from the beginning of time until the end. That is why over 800 prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    This is a very weak position from which to mount a logical or scientific argument..
    - we understand the point from which we stand. Darkness doesnt like the light and flees from it. We are saved by faith, and faith alone, lest any man boast of his own good works.


    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I place many restrictions on my behaviour out of respect for my fellow humans and for life in general. More than that I take specific actions that are aimed at what I perceive to be the greater good. In this I am no different from millions of others. I do so, not out of fear of eternal damnation, but out of a belief that such actions are right and proper,
    .
    - Where do you obtain your moral absolutes from that you live your life by? How do you know right from wrong? Why do you trust in your own actions and works? Are you, and millions of others so proud that you believe that your thoughts and your moral standards have become absolutes? What you perceive to be the greater good- again its your own self doing all the determining, what if youre wrong? Just by merging yourself and associating yourself with millions of others who do the same things as you, it still does not make it right. 100 thieves could all agree on the fact that stealing was morally OK.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    Obviously you are not proud of being a Christian nor are you proud of God. You really aren't proud of anything I gather. So at this point you are not proud of not being proud, see where I'm going?
    You lost me in the circular argument.[/QUOTE]

    Wasn't meant to be circular. If pride is a sin then it is in the best interest of a Christian to avoid it. Proud of being a Christian or shit farmer carries the same weight, pride is pride and it pisses God off. So if one wants to be as far away from sin or in God's good graces, then it behooves them not be proud of anything, including Christianity and shit farming. Anything is all encompassing, so you end up with no pride in both being proud or not being proud. Is that realistic? If I said I loved everything then I would love hate or if I hated everything then I would hate hate. Don't you think a holy text should be way more distinct and apparent so that it is absolutely infallible and irrefutable?

    'For God so loved the world'...... The world is not devoid of evil. Evil is part of the world, so do these words mean God loved evil?
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 13th, 2012 at 09:11 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    Obviously you are not proud of being a Christian nor are you proud of God. You really aren't proud of anything I gather. So at this point you are not proud of not being proud, see where I'm going?
    You lost me in the circular argument.
    Wasn't meant to be circular. If pride is a sin then it is in the best interest of a Christian to avoid it. Proud of being a Christian or shit farmer carries the same weight, pride is pride and it pisses God off. So if one wants to be as far away from sin or in God's good graces, then it behooves them not be proud of anything, including Christianity and shit farming. Anything is all encompassing, so you end up with no pride in both being proud or not being proud. Is that realistic? If I said I loved everything then I would love hate or if I hated everything then I would hate hate. Don't you think a holy text should be way more distinct and apparent so that it is absolutely infallible and irrefutable?

    'For God so loved the world'...... The world is not devoid of evil. Evil is part of the world, so do these words mean God loved evil?[/QUOTE]

    You are correct that the Bible is a Holy text. Thus, it is different from a history book.

    My experience with it is that the Bible is a source of strength and insight. It is amazing how many times I have a pending concern and the first passage I read in the morning addresses the concern exactly. The Bible also seems to provide the ability to resist temptation. Also, the Bible seems to have layers of insights that come from spending time with the Bible, especially if the person has had some expert instruction (church sermon etc.).

    All of these things are consistent with the Bible being a Holy text.

    Thus, for most things like "love" or "pride", there are layers of insight into what exactly these words mean.

    The insight is not something that you can pull out of two lines from a dictionary.

    It is deeper than that.

    So, my own understanding is evolving as I spend time with the Bible. I think this experience is pretty common.

    I don't have all the answers.

    I think we covered evil as a consequence of free will.

    Unfortunately, there is evil in the world.

    However, God gives the power to resist evil to people who seek it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Thus, for most things like "love" or "pride", there are layers of insight into what exactly these words mean.

    The insight is not something that you can pull out of two lines from a dictionary.

    It is deeper than that.
    Exactly what I'm saying. Scripture is vague, unless you're a genuine mind reader. If you have to find truth and meaning through study, meditation or other means then the scriptures are not meant to be taken literally. I guess I would expect God to do better because you know and I know that not everyone is capable of going deep. You must feel privileged.

    My experience with it is that the Bible is a source of strength and insight. It is amazing how many times I have a pending concern and the first passage I read in the morning addresses the concern exactly
    Can you give us an example?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Thus, for most things like "love" or "pride", there are layers of insight into what exactly these words mean.

    The insight is not something that you can pull out of two lines from a dictionary.

    It is deeper than that.
    Exactly what I'm saying. Scripture is vague, unless you're a genuine mind reader. If you have to find truth and meaning through study, meditation or other means then the scriptures are not meant to be taken literally. I guess I would expect God to do better because you know and I know that not everyone is capable of going deep. You must feel privileged.

    My experience with it is that the Bible is a source of strength and insight. It is amazing how many times I have a pending concern and the first passage I read in the morning addresses the concern exactly
    Can you give us an example?
    I think the way it works is that God reveals things to people who read the Bible as a means to seek God. That is different from "browsing" or reading the Bible as a historical text. I am no theologian.

    I am working on a project outside of work that may lead to other opportunities. Initially, I discussed it with a couple people at work and got some feedback because the project could also benefit our organization.

    Shortly after this I went to two sermons that warned of the same passage in the Bible that basically said to "keep your mouth shut" in certain situations. After this, I tried to be a lot more careful about what I talk about at work.

    Yesterday, I was thinking of getting some feedback from someone who is truely an expert in my project. The first passage I read in Proverbs that morning exhorted getting "wise counsel". Thus, after some more improvements, I may see if this expert can give me some feedback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Over 60 books of the Bible, over 40 different authors, across thousands of years, how is the Bible unsubstantiated.
    There is no independent evidence to suggest it is the Word of God. You base that belief purely upon faith. There are millions of other people who, on the basis of faith, believe a different set of words. Faith is thus, demonstrably, incapable of revealing the truth.


    That is why over 800 prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled.
    With any disrespect intended, that is delusional crap. List here the five best authenticated prophecies and your evidence that they were fulfilled.

    Where do you obtain your moral absolutes from that you live your life by?
    I don't recall saying I believed in moral absolutes. Perhaps that's because I have been influenced by the strong, inherent moral relativity of the Bible.

    Why do you trust in your own actions and works?
    They are consistent with the character of life in general and primates in particular, but favour elements of cooperation rather than conflict.

    What you perceive to be the greater good- again its your own self doing all the determining, what if youre wrong?
    And what if you are wrong? I take responsibility for my actions - I don't need the excuse of following orders form above.

    Just by merging yourself and associating yourself with millions of others who do the same things as you, it still does not make it right. 100 thieves could all agree on the fact that stealing was morally OK.
    I mentioned the millions of others in order to avoid appearing arrogant in my claim. not to justify it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post
    Over 60 books of the Bible, over 40 different authors, across thousands of years, how is the Bible unsubstantiated.
    There is no independent evidence to suggest it is the Word of God.
    And huge chunks of factual information contained within that are completely refuted by overwelming evidence--it's either a not the word of god, one who coincidently doesn't know much more than a bronze aged man or deliberately lies to man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    Can you give us an example?
    I think the way it works is that God reveals things to people who read the Bible as a means to seek God. That is different from "browsing" or reading the Bible as a historical text. I am no theologian.
    Proverbs 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but whoever hates correction is stupid. It's one of my favorites because of it's redundancy and something else I'll talk about later. According to you, God is speaking to me, saying something that I will not understand until I do some serious reflection. My point is that God does not need to resort to the second half of that line unless He thinks the first part was not good enough. Would a stupid person even realize they're being corrected? If God can't make his own words clear then I have serious doubts about Bible authenticity.

    There is another conclusion to be reached with that verse. Loving knowledge means you love to be corrected or the knowledge you have is subject to correction. I suppose you can love knowledge a lot more when you don't have any but if there was ever a line that referred to science then this is it. Every creationist should heed this verse. Scientific knowledge is in a constant state of flux. Scientists are prepared for today's knowledge to be corrected and for the most part they welcome it. Creationists as well as people who see the Bible as the source of all knowledge are, according to God, stupid to ignore or hate science. It's right there in black & white. So if science says delusion is a symptom of a mental disorder then do you hate it or love it?

    Whatever.....I've just demonstrated two different ways of looking at one little verse in the Bible. I'm sure I could come up with several more.
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    [QUOTE=John Galt;330758]
    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post

    That is why over 800 prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled.
    With any disrespect intended, that is delusional crap. List here the five best authenticated prophecies and your evidence that they were fulfilled.
    Please, i beg you, IN WHICH PART OF THE BIBLE, YAHVE (YOR-EL? HA HA HA.. DO SOMETHING WITCHY! FANATICS) PREDICTED THE HOLOCAUST? HOLO-HELL WAS, WITH NO SHADE OF DOUBT, THE MOST IMPORTANT EVENT O' ISREAL
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    Isreal? i tried to say Israel, dammii!!! do something witchy!!
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    Okay. 800 prophecies. Are you including the prophecies of Isaiah concerning Christ? First of all is there proof of the time that he wrote the book of Isaiah?

    Also bezoar, at the beginning of this thread you said you knew God did not know of your deeds? What kind of things have you done? Or did i misunderstand?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulMichael View Post

    Also bezoar, at the beginning of this thread you said you knew God did not know of your deeds? What kind of things have you done? Or did i misunderstand?
    I'm really sorry. Sometimes i cant control my thirst for serious disertation/ information. Resulted unbearable to me read glibberings about 800 fulfilled prophecies..
    There were so many years i was seekin for only one irrefutable evidence of biblical supernatural phenomena (fulfilled biblical prophecies, Sodom's soil analysis, etc)
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    If you were God and you'd created all of nature and man what would actually want from them? I imagine a scenario in which God wouldn't people to speak in his name or sit around in churchs worshipping him. Surely he would want us to be all that we can be and grow and acheive our true potential. To do that he has to let us get on with it. He may have set out the conditions and rules of life in the form we understand as nature. Just because religions have tried to put their stamp on and define what God is doesn't necessarily means it's true. The idea that is God, is for each of to decide ourselves he can be whatever anybody wants to believe he is. So go ahead and just imagine what you would want God to be, what would be your perfect idea of God. Don't accept or listen to anybody else's idea because that is irrelivant it's your idea that matters. The same goes heaven just go ahead and believe in a heaven where everything is perfect and just the way you would wish it to be.
    Last edited by Ascended; June 16th, 2012 at 08:07 AM. Reason: missed word out
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unified3 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I place many restrictions on my behaviour out of respect for my fellow humans and for life in general. More than that I take specific actions that are aimed at what I perceive to be the greater good. In this I am no different from millions of others. I do so, not out of fear of eternal damnation, but out of a belief that such actions are right and proper,
    .
    - Where do you obtain your moral absolutes from that you live your life by? How do you know right from wrong? Why do you trust in your own actions and works? Are you, and millions of others so proud that you believe that your thoughts and your moral standards have become absolutes? What you perceive to be the greater good- again its your own self doing all the determining, what if youre wrong? Just by merging yourself and associating yourself with millions of others who do the same things as you, it still does not make it right. 100 thieves could all agree on the fact that stealing was morally OK.
    "Be nice to each other. "

    There, I just stated all there is to know about morality.
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    Very occassionally you surprise me and get things right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraham Lincoln
    These two great gentlemen are dedicated to a proposition which was true in my time, just as it's true today. Be excellent to each other. And... PARTY ON, DUDES!
    Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure (1989) - Memorable quotes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Surely he would want us to be all that we can be and grow and acheive our true potential.
    That's it.... God wants us to join the Army
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    Does Bible predicted The Holocaust? If not, Is not a big deficience, considering Nostradamus did?
    Can be any theologycal argument to consider 8 millions of israelis deserved holocaust? What i know about jewish religion, lead me to think it is not different of cristianism, except for the fact that they eliminated superstition, fear, and other retrograde aspects of religions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Does Bible predicted The Holocaust? If not, Is not a big deficience, considering Nostradamus did?
    Nostradamus didn't predict that or anything else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    Does Bible predicted The Holocaust? If not, Is not a big deficience, considering Nostradamus did?
    Nostradamus didn't predict that or anything else.
    I dont believe in the prophecies of Nostradamus. But some forum members here consider there are some clues regard fulfilled biblical prophecies. And i asume they suppose one day science will prove it.

    The question is philosophycal: why we haven't any clues regard biblical predictions of the holocaust? It suggest me strongly that The Bible isnt inspired by God, because that flagrant omission.


    I dont believe in Science
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  83. #82  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezoar View Post
    I dont believe in Science
    a) Then why are you asking questions on a science forum?

    b) It doesn't really matter if you (or anyone else) 'believes' in science or not. It still works. As evidence, I would suggest the existence of this forum, the Internet and your computer.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  84. #83  
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    I dont believe in Sciencewas a mistake in writing. An involuntary accident.
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  85. #84  
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    What an hilarious accident!! sorry.
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