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Thread: theists vs. atheists

  1. #1 theists vs. atheists 
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    My theist-atheist article appears in the April 2012 Issue of
    American Atheist Magazine. The link is:

    http://csam.montclair.edu/~kowalski/theo/atheist.html

    Comments will be appreciated.

    Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)


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    Why am i commenting on something that has no discussion points in it?


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    To self-servingly point out that your post is pointless.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    You're not worried that God will strike you down?
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    Ludwik, would you summarise your thoughts from the article for the benefit of forum members. Offsite links with a request for comments, but no further observations are frowned on. Thanks.
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    you godless guys really need to find a new term to describe yourselves
    atheist seems so juvenile and rebellious
    i am a theist, i am not an a-theist
    atheist polytheist monotheist ...
    may i suggest finding a name without the word theist.

    how about "fred"

    ie to ei
    hmmm
    ok
    Last edited by sculptor; June 8th, 2012 at 07:04 AM.
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    May I suggest you double-check your spelling before posting you comment.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    how about "fred"
    Difference is that fredists believe in the existence of Fred and can provide indisputable hard evidence that proves it..
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    you godless guys really need to find a new term to describe yourselves
    athiest seems so juvenile and rebellious
    i am a thiest, i am not an a-thiest
    athiest polythiest monothiest ...
    may i suggest finding a name without the word thiest.

    how about "fred"
    you aren't the only one to suggest this. "Brights" has been proposed by others.
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    I thought "Freethinkers" (freethought) was the name. I never liked Brights.
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    I'm not sure why there needs to be a word for atheist at all. We don't have a word for people who are not interested in football or who don't collect playing cards or can't play an instrument.

    Perhaps the word should be reserved for those militant anti-theists like Dawkins (who has turned atheism into a religion).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by kowalskil View Post
    Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
    Why should we look you up on Wikipedia? I did and you obviously wrote it yourself.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Any idiot can make an article on wikipedia, that's the whole point of an open scource, free editing, encyclopedic website.

    Atheist need a real word. Or theists should have a new word. Like Monotheist (as it actually is). Then A-theist or Mono-theist sounds pretty different. Though i doubt the existence of any true atheists. As everybody has prayed for the actual existence of a god sometimes. I have, and i don't believe there is one, i just hope there still is one. Even if heaven is simply a cloud, with a minibar, i'm in. . I hope it has beer.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Though i doubt the existence of any true atheists.
    Does that make you an a-atheist?
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    Though i doubt the existence of any true atheists.
    Does that make you an a-atheist?
    And you didn't notice my minibar with beer?

    I'm an A-Atheist-minibar-in-heaven-with-beer-theismic believer.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  17. #16  
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    I believed once upon a time, but not at all any more. About as much as I believe in the tooth fairy. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Though i doubt the existence of any true atheists. As everybody has prayed for the actual existence of a god sometimes.
    As Kalstar said that's poor argument. I too was once brain washed to be superstitious. But as an adult who's now had several death life threatening experiences and not even having throught of prayer I'm fully confident I don't believe in god anymore. If I'm wrong I hope god is nothing like he's depicted in the Abrahamic faiths.
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    I think in fairness I would have to describe myself as an agnostic, not an atheist, because I have absolutely no idea wether God exists or not. What I can say for certain though is I have no faith in any of the world's religions, which appear to be self serving, have no basis in reality and strive to hold back progress and actual understanding at every turn.

    For me any issue about theists vs atheists is totally irrelevant, any bad things actually done seem to me far more about religion than any God that people may or may not believe in. I think since none of us really no if there's an after life or a heaven then we should all get to choose in our own minds what we might wish it to be like not have to listen to someone else's idea that a religion may teach us, which is at best a guess on the part of the person who first made that idea up.

    God never tells anyone to do anything, never asks anything of anyone only religions do this, they claim the power of God and offer nothing in return.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver View Post
    As everybody has prayed for the actual existence of a god sometimes.
    I don't believe that is true. Unless you count an exclamation of "Oh God" in times of crisis (or passion ) as a prayer for the existence of God.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  21. #20  
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    Lao Tzu:
    "When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
    When goodness is lost, there is morality.
    When morality is lost, there is ritual.
    Ritual is the hollow husk of true faith,
    the beginning of chaos."
    (this ain't the only translation, but it's good'nuff)

    all "religions follow the same path
    from meaning and understanding to shallow ritual, symbolism, and entrenched priesthoods
    inside each "religion" is a germ of the original
    a grain of sand in a mountain of bullshit
    damned hard to find and even harder to recognize

    "seek and ye shall find"
    (or not)
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  22. #21  
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    When you can't win by reasoning, you switch to preaching.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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  23. #22  
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    not even a little bit
    to each his/her own
    .....................
    one thing i've noticed about the folks who go to church, is that their congregating creates a community that shares and helps it's members and some non members
    pointedly-----their congregating has little to do with religion
    they mouth certain "key words" as a habit and password signifying their unity as community
    .......
    if that is the sort of comfort and support that they want or need,
    i ain't gonna begrudge them that solice
    not even a little bit
    ......................
    following my premise that GOD is unknowable in the entirety of GOD
    to a certain obvious extent my theism is oftimes within the subset of agnosticism
    but
    while i do believe that understanding/knowing the entirity is most likely impossible, i do feel that we can catch glimpses now and then of some of the myriad ("faces of god") *
    so
    for me anyway, GOD is not completely unknown nor unknowable
    .........................
    here is the part that moves outside the current concept "science"
    should you wish to commune with GOD
    do not, Do Not use the conscious mind--------
    -----------
    the face of god that we have here is our shared coevolutionary biom **
    i feel that if people would just start looking for a god they can treasure right here,
    little of this silly killing each other for disparate rituals would continue
    (which i feel is the animosity of arrogance only nominally called "religion")

    ............(okwazzat preaching?)
    know your own path
    ...........
    * faces does not imply noun
    ** looking for an understanding with a particle accelerator is most likely a darned good religious act
    Last edited by sculptor; June 9th, 2012 at 08:18 AM.
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    In reading your article, I instantly thought of The Brothers Karamazov when Ivan is speaking with the Devil about how all of the scientific ideas in the world will not refute religion. I enjoyed your recognition that scientific inquiry and religious inquiry are two separate methods. You put it into perspective in a way that is easy to understand. Indeed, one cannot use the evidence from either side of the argument to disprove the other because of those differing methods. Religious people are well acquainted with "spiritual evidence" that may not hold up to the scientific method but cannot be disproved necessarily. Conversely, religious theology cannot refute science through its method because they are not compatible with the other. You are onto something big through this seemingly simple recognition.
    My favorite idea you discuss is that people not versed in a subject matter should not bother discussing (influencing opinions of those in the middle) the field of the other. You say "scientists should not participate in debates about the spiritual world, unless they happen to also be theologians. Likewise, theologians should not participate in debates about the material world, unless they happen to also be scientists." Very well said. By participating, they are suggesting that the 2 fields are the same when in fact they are not. I do tend to notice however, that many people educated in science tend also to be well versed on religion but that religious people are not very well versed on science (I MAY BE WRONG HERE FEEL FREE TO CORRECT). As a result, they seem to take things out of context or fail to appreciate the scientific method. I think that anyone seeking to participate in the type of widely published material we see today should have education on both topics to be held in esteem.
    Another reason I enjoy your article is that it recognizes that both sides have a different task. Religious tradition is marked by numerous sub religions within each religion. How can there be such a differing opinions over the same exact texts? The aim of religion should be to quantify those thoughts and come to a point of agreeance within their own community. Unfortunately, however, religion is like art; people may make their own best attempts at interpretations using small evidence from a passage. Science has a much greater calling because it is ever changing and what could be true today may be wrong tomorrow. However, the work of today will form the truth of tomorrow. Much different methods are needed in the 2 fields.
    I certainly hope you reach a large audience with your thoughts. It removes that disgruntled feeling of animosity that both sides tend to feel for each other for no other reason than tradition. You show that religion and science both have their place in our world while popular authors tend to strive for the demise of the other. I hope to continue reading your work in the future. Thanks for sharing this article!
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    you godless guys really need to find a new term to describe yourselves
    may i suggest finding a name without the word theist.
    Why not Nietzscheans? After all, Nietzsche said "God is dead".
    Not all who wander are lost... Some of us just misplaced our destination.

    I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist.
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    Why not Nietzscheans?
    Many religious already don't have the imagination to understand how atheist could have morals, naming them after a child molester wouldn't help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmwyant View Post
    Why not Nietzscheans? After all, Nietzsche said "God is dead".
    The trouble with that is that it assumes God exists. Whereas an atheist would think, "God? What does that mean? Is that a thing?"
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Why not Nietzscheans?
    Many religious already don't have the imagination to understand how atheist could have morals, naming them after a child molester wouldn't help.
    So they would have something in common with the Catholic Church?
    Not all who wander are lost... Some of us just misplaced our destination.

    I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Ludwik, would you summarise your thoughts from the article for the benefit of forum members. Offsite links with a request for comments, but no further observations are frowned on. Thanks.
    The bottom line is that futile conflicts can possibly be eliminated if the the NOMA idea is accepted.

    L.K.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kowalskil View Post
    Ludwik Kowalski (see Wikipedia)
    Why should we look you up on Wikipedia? I did and you obviously wrote it yourself.
    You are wrong; the Wikipedia article was written by a stranger.

    L.K.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brisk View Post
    In reading your article, I instantly thought of The Brothers Karamazov when Ivan is speaking with the Devil about how all of the scientific ideas in the world will not refute religion. I enjoyed your recognition that scientific inquiry and religious inquiry are two separate methods. You put it into perspective in a way that is easy to understand. Indeed, one cannot use the evidence from either side of the argument to disprove the other because of those differing methods. Religious people are well acquainted with "spiritual evidence" that may not hold up to the scientific method but cannot be disproved necessarily. Conversely, religious theology cannot refute science through its method because they are not compatible with the other. You are onto something big through this seemingly simple recognition.
    My favorite idea you discuss is that people not versed in a subject matter should not bother discussing (influencing opinions of those in the middle) the field of the other. You say "scientists should not participate in debates about the spiritual world, unless they happen to also be theologians. Likewise, theologians should not participate in debates about the material world, unless they happen to also be scientists." Very well said. By participating, they are suggesting that the 2 fields are the same when in fact they are not. I do tend to notice however, that many people educated in science tend also to be well versed on religion but that religious people are not very well versed on science (I MAY BE WRONG HERE FEEL FREE TO CORRECT). As a result, they seem to take things out of context or fail to appreciate the scientific method. I think that anyone seeking to participate in the type of widely published material we see today should have education on both topics to be held in esteem.
    Another reason I enjoy your article is that it recognizes that both sides have a different task. Religious tradition is marked by numerous sub religions within each religion. How can there be such a differing opinions over the same exact texts? The aim of religion should be to quantify those thoughts and come to a point of agreeance within their own community. Unfortunately, however, religion is like art; people may make their own best attempts at interpretations using small evidence from a passage. Science has a much greater calling because it is ever changing and what could be true today may be wrong tomorrow. However, the work of today will form the truth of tomorrow. Much different methods are needed in the 2 fields.
    I certainly hope you reach a large audience with your thoughts. It removes that disgruntled feeling of animosity that both sides tend to feel for each other for no other reason than tradition. You show that religion and science both have their place in our world while popular authors tend to strive for the demise of the other. I hope to continue reading your work in the future. Thanks for sharing this article!
    Thank you for comments, Brisk. The NOMA idea, formulated by Gould, is the only hope to reduce the intensity of dangerous feuds about God.

    L.K.
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  32. #31  
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    Not all who wander are lost... Some of us just misplaced our destination.

    I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. The proper function of a man is to live, not to exist.
    -Jack London
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    I believe in God but I look at all the proper evidence. I may someday not believe in God. But for now , I do. I do not need to read vague prophecies, I do not pay attention to them. Thats one thing I know for sure.
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  34. #33  
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    If indeed, you have chosen a life without GOD
    Then,
    Why do you care?
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    If indeed, you have chosen a life without GOD, then, why do you care?
    Who was your comment directed at?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    If indeed, you have chosen a life without GOD, then, why do you care?
    Who was your comment directed at?
    any and every godless athiest

    I just don't get it.
    I have chosen a life without many things, and care not about any of them.
    so, say, i have chosen a life without asperagus, why would i want to care about asperagus?
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    For me its the fact that religions (multiple) have members that are actively working to deny basic humans rights from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    For me its the fact that religions (multiple) have members that are actively working to deny basic humans rights from me.
    Dito...as well being the focal point for intolerance, denial of basic rights for others as well as an excuse to stall scientific progress.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    For me its the fact that religions (multiple) have members that are actively working to deny basic humans rights from me.
    Dito...as well being the focal point for intolerance, denial of basic rights for others as well as an excuse to stall scientific progress.
    OK
    So, what I'm reading is that you guys ain't (just?) athiest, you're anti-religious---
    izzat true?

    ...."deny basic human rights" for example..........?

    personally
    I have grown intolerant of intolerance, arrogance, -(religion without reverence)--- etc.etc.
    under any guise this subset is ultimately anti-humanist
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  40. #39  
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    I am an agnostic who is deeply troubled by the approach taken by many members of fundamentalist religions. I see delusion, self righteouness, arrogance and bigotry in abundance. I am not against religion as such, but against those manifestations of it - manifestations that are more like infestations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I am an agnostic who is deeply troubled by the approach taken by many members of fundamentalist religions. I see delusion, self righteouness, arrogance and bigotry in abundance. I am not against religion as such, but against those manifestations of it - manifestations that are more like infestations.
    did i ever mention that i was once forcibly ejected from an army chapel by an irate baptist minister, who, shaking like a leaf, red faced and with spittle flying out of his mouth screamed "OUT OF MY CHIRCH YOU SACRILIGIOUS SON OF A BITCH!!!"

    the poor guy was so hung up on the words that he forgot something very important as/re our relationship with "god"
    (in all fairness, I may have poked him with a logical stick a tad too harshly)
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    [
    OK
    So, what I'm reading is that you guys ain't (just?) athiest, you're anti-religious---
    izzat true?
    That would be true for me, I'm certainly open to the possibiliy that god exists because I don't know otherwise, but don't like religion because they all seem to be self serving and don't really care about their followers. With the exception of a few happy clappy churchs where people actually seem to to have fun the rest seem depressing places designed to make people feel guilty.
    Everything has its beauty, but not everyone sees it. - confucius
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrisgorlitz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    [
    OK
    So, what I'm reading is that you guys ain't (just?) athiest, you're anti-religious---
    izzat true?
    That would be true for me, I'm certainly open to the possibiliy that god exists because I don't know otherwise, but don't like religion because they all seem to be self serving and don't really care about their followers. With the exception of a few happy clappy churchs where people actually seem to to have fun the rest seem depressing places designed to make people feel guilty.
    LaoTzu figgured that one out circa 3000 years ago
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    If indeed, you have chosen a life without GOD Then, Why do you care?
    Good question. I don't. I am fascinated by what people believe and why, and like to probe that occasionally. I object when people use their beliefs (religious or otherwise) as an argument against facts or logic (e.g. denying evolution). But in the more general case, I don't really understand why people like Dawkins are so religiously anti-religion.

    Incidentally, I object to the word "choose"; I didn't choose not to be interested in football and I didn't choose what to believe. (I guess I could force myself to; but why would I).
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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  45. #44  
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    aside from the workaday world when i was facilitating someone else's ambitions
    I pretty much choose what i am interested in ---and what i ignore(football included)--------maybe 'tain't normal, but such is the life of an autodidactic
    loving son of a mother who believed that knowledge was it's own reward

    I choose
    and, with each and every breath and glance and thought, YOU CHOOSE TOO
    can you not?
    ....................
    I am fascinated by what people believe and why, and like to probe that occasionally
    yeh, me too, and i am a very curious fellow
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  46. #45  
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    I pretty much choose what i am interested in
    I rather doubt that. Our interests and choices are inextricably intertwined.

    Do we really choose to be interested in Chilean wines, silk embroidery, spiders in remote caves, badminton, bird calls, design of children's play equipment ......... ? Only if we already know about them, or something related to them. And we only know about things we pay attention to in the first place. Which gets us right back to being interested - otherwise we'd ignore them entirely or not even notice they were there to be ignored.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  47. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    I pretty much choose what i am interested in
    I rather doubt that. Our interests and choices are inextricably intertwined. ... .
    here and now, that is obviously true (and the downside is that we may never be free of this intertwined bond)(indemic to the species as a whole?)
    but
    tempus fugit and who knows what tomorrow brings?
    i became interested in Chilean wines when 5-6 bucks bought a rather pleasing vintage

    i chose to be frugal and un-biased
    and found a sensory delight(and mild buzz) (yippee)

    and, as/re
    I pretty much choose what i am interested in
    , why is it, exactly that you think i found my way here?
    and
    are you not here due to your own choices?
    Last edited by sculptor; June 14th, 2012 at 08:43 PM.
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  48. #47  
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    are you not here due to your own choices?
    But I would not have come here, I would have gone elsewhere, if my interests were in restoring classic cars or in jazz ballet rather than science.

    I choose not to go to such sites because I'm not interested.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  49. #48  
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    do you not choose to be "not interested"?

    we choose
    all the time
    (as the existentialist would have it) each choice we make for ourselves, is a choice we make for all of mankind(sapiens sapiems)
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  50. #49  
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    do you not choose to be "not interested"?
    About things that I do know, or that other people have brought to my attention, I suppose choose is a word that could be used.

    I suspect that we're really talking about something else entirely here. Conscious choice is something we are all aware of - and we like to feel we're in control of. But any competent psychologist or sociologist would tell you that most things in our lives are things that, by and large, we're not aware we're 'choosing'.

    For many of them, choice is not even an option.
    And then there are all those other things we might do or have where we don't even know a 'choice' exists.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  51. #50  
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    anecdote about (not?) choosing:
    several years ago, i was helping a friend work on his house which had a rather healthy population of termites
    i pulled a termite infested door header down, and the termites poured out like water, landing in a conical pile on the floor
    every once in a while, a termite would head off, and another would be on his ass and another would be on his ass*.... forming a chain of the blind leading the blind
    and i was certain that the following termites were happier knowing that someone else was in charge
    and that, i thought mimicked the human condition rather succinctly

    we are all products of our culture
    certain taboos seem beyond change
    my sons are 31 and i never censored my conversations with them, nor tried to get them to censor their words,
    and still, if i try to discuss their mother's sex life, they react in horror
    (and i think i now know why a leading religion has a virgin mother of god)
    "damned kinky" is you ask me
    continuing the experiment, i attempted to engage my brother in a conversation about our mother's sexuality
    and his reaction was of the same nature
    the subject was taboo
    ...............................
    did they choose?
    or is this something genetic?
    .....................
    * looked like a child's drawing of the sun with squiggly lines coming out of a disk
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    if i try to discuss their mother's sex life, they react in horror
    ...... continuing the experiment, i attempted to engage my brother in a conversation about our mother's sexuality
    and his reaction was of the same nature ......
    the subject was taboo
    Why would you want to discuss the sex lives of your closest women relatives with their closest male relatives?

    Just think back to the times when families literally lived in the same bed, or in bedding so near as to be virtually the same bed. Did members of such families engage in the sorts of conversations that you're attempting to initiate here? My experience tells me that many families deal with such issues by jokes and innuendo rather than explicit discussion.

    There are such things as modesty, decent reticence and conventional family habits. If your brother and sons dislike or avoid such discussion, it's a pretty clear indication that either
    a) this is not the norm for your family ...... or
    b) this is a frequent topic, for you, and the rest of the family is fed up with it and want you to give it a rest.

    If your mother or your wife want to discuss their sex lives with close family members, let them start the discussion.
    John Galt and dmwyant like this.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  53. #52  
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    The forum system only allows me to give a single like to the last post. It is so monumentally sensible in comparison with sculptor's post it deserves more. Sculptor's bizarre views are not in themselves surprising. I am on board with people holding and expressing such thoughts for the shock value, or to engender a new perspective on the world. Sculptor appears blithely unaware that these are taboo areas until confronted with reality. On the other hand - sculptor - you seem generally disconnected from the rest of the planet so I shouldn't be surprised.
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    i have agreed with all above member's opinion.
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  55. #54  
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    OK
    lemme 'xplain
    i had heard a stray comment about "the virgin mary" while reading a blurb about the g-spot---(curious blend?)
    so, thinking the concept of virgin birth bizarre, i decided to conduct a little psychology experiment
    and, not wishing to offend any of my neighbors, i decided to experiment on my own family

    and you've read the results
    [the reason for sharing psych. experiments is always,(for me),seeking other ancillary(includes contradictory) data.]

    what i was getting at was
    is this a cultural taboo?
    or does this go deeper into the psyche of the species?
    one commentor remarked about the incest taboo common with children raised in a kibbutz ---wherein, though unrelated by blood, they feel like marriage within that population is "wrong"
    ...
    has to do with the "free will" to make decisions (choose)
    following on adelady's comments, the question obtains, just how free are we to choose
    and observations of termites (for every "free thinker" there seemed to be a thousand followers)
    coupled with what i have noticed in the workaday world---many people do not want to be part of the decision making process

    though i may argue for the existentialist's responsibility of choice, i always look for the edges of "free will" and taboo
    (much of my life has to do with building things--and the limitations of materials chosen for the task at hand---always struggling with the sturdines of the romanesque verses the soaring grandure of the gothic) there is a reason that i have focused much of my life's work in doing what i call "outsmarting inanimate objects"

    where are the foundations of free will?

    the human psyche has a whole different set of building blocks, some of which are "hard wired" and some of which are cultural, and some societal
    if you don't probe the edges, how will you ever know which is which?

    do we grow from a double bind---or do we suffer
    (see gregory bateson and d.t.suzuki)
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    I am an agnostic who is deeply troubled by the approach taken by many members of fundamentalist religions. I see delusion, self righteouness, arrogance and bigotry in abundance. I am not against religion as such, but against those manifestations of it - manifestations that are more like infestations.

    Yes. But if I believe in you, and that makes you a God, what teaching do you propose for me?

    I think you're so cool, but I don't know how to relate.
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  57. #56  
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    Perseus and the medussa
    cellini's brilliance went beyond his sculpting and casting
    he placed the bronze such that bandinelli's stone hercules was staring at the severed head of the medussa---

    really excellent work(uplifts my spirit)
    thanks, perseus, for the mnemonic

    (and, wasn't his medussa hot?)
    Last edited by sculptor; June 16th, 2012 at 06:22 PM.
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