Thread: Experiments on the 'karma effect'

I'm bewildered if science could prove 'karma' doesn't exist.

Like in the isolated conditions required to test telepathy. One person could make great charitable actions during one year.
Absolutely Nobody must be aware of the charity this person did. A plastic surgery, a change of identity, a change of country, etc.

If passed 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, nothing 'equivalentry' good (the boomerang effect of karma) happens to this guy,...

Maybe karma is another incomprehensible concept?
Maybe christian morality too?

Maybe karma is another incomprehensible concept?

Not incomprehensible at all. People like to think that their good fortune is the result of their own innate virtue. They also like to think that bad things will happen to bad people.

Dreaming up a concept like karma has several advantages. Self-esteem from 'knowing' that you have 'earned' all the good things that have come your way, even if you've made no discernible effort in the eyes of an observer.

Absolving yourself from responsibility or concern for unfortunate others because their problems must be "all their own fault", even though a reasonable person would think that it's probably nobody's "fault" that someone is injured by debris in a tornado or a flood. (Think of those awful scenes from the massive Indian Ocean tsunami a few years ago. There are some in the blame-the-victim, karma believing types who think these people deserved or 'asked for' their horrible deaths.)

Originally Posted by bezoar

If passed 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, nothing 'equivalentry' good (the boomerang effect of karma) happens to this guy,...

I think this may be a rather simple view of it. I don't know much about karma, specifically, but I have always assumed it is close to the idea of balance, or the Chinese idea of dao. Not necessarily anything mysterious, just a natural result of not doing things "right".

For example, if your tribe/country cut down all the trees to plant crops in a few generations there will be problems due to loss of soil, change in weather patterns, lack of timber for building and fuel ...

But if you engage in sustainable practices, you will leave the world a better place for your children.

I think maybe 'karma' has a chance of existing as real/existing law. Maybe our society is complex enought to 'magically' give rise to a consistent new law/phenomenon which we can't directly control, like the 'karma' (which (if true) should have great chance of repeatability). For example: I heard that every person on Earth is connected to another person thru 6 person, which is also called "6 degree of saperation, or Kevin Bacon's 6 degree of saperation (because it was once demonstrated by Kevin Bacon's fan in the 90s that Kevin Bacon is connected to everyone by 6 people)", this curious behaviour (probably "karma" too) arise because human/all-people are networked with each other (1 or 2 or 3 friends/acquintant)... and this network create emergent behaviour (new phenomenon)... just like neuron in our brain does.

"Karma" might just be real, but I don't know... but I know for sure that curious phenomenon "6 degree of saperation" is possible caused by the way we interact with people.

To set an experiment we need to be clear about the intended input and the expected result. I don't know if we have a clear and sufficient understanding of the karma effect to define input and outcome. For example, if someone give a donation of 1 Million USD, do we expect that he would get 1 Million USD back in the future? or a happiness worth 1 Million USD?

Originally Posted by prasit

To set an experiment we need to be clear about the intended input and the expected result. I don't know if we have a clear and sufficient understanding of the karma effect to define input and outcome. For example, if someone give a donation of 1 Million USD, do we expect that he would get 1 Million USD back in the future? or a happiness worth 1 Million USD?

Maybe, a good example of the inexistence of karma law, is how strong is today the economy of Germany, considering they commited the worst crime against Jewish.
Maybe the worst crime against any nation, ever.

Does Sionism Conspiracy hipothesis, and other tales about the evil nature of Jews have any scientific support?

Interesting that the 2004 tsunami was mentioned already above as I was going to use that as an example as to why I’m cynical about karma. I recall a sad news interview of a man just after the 2004 tsunami. He said he lost his son to the tsunami but blamed himself for being a bad person in his life. He believed karma had killed him son. But not because his son did something bad but because he[the father] did something bad in his life.

So my problem with karma is this. If I get hit and killed by a bus or by some random tragedy, does that mean all the people that loved me (I’m sure my parents love me anyway! ) did something very bad in their lives in order for them to loose somebody they loved (e.g. me!)?

Also, I’ve heard this example a few times- If karma was real, then I should be able to go to some random stranger and justifiably punch them in the face because they must have deserved it, due to karma!

Insofar as reciprocal altruism is a real thing that can be measured and confer survival advantages...it is a real thing. The idea of Karma...just takes it too far.

Guys, i take religious concepts very seriously.

Biologist Rupert Sheldrake did many rigurous experiments on telepathy. It implies human minds could be interconected, but it doesnt implies karma is a component of such invisible web.

Why God could create (thru evolution) humans whose most altruistic or most perverse actions could have no karmic consecuences?
An hipothetic Global Conspiracy(ies...or all kind of surreptitious evils) could ruin billions and billions of human lifes, thu eons, generating no karma debts.

What kind of 'Perfidious God' could design such world?
If karma law exist, but our science is too young to discover it, why God considers our generation don't deserve to possess authentic faith?

I want to have faith, my only faith is in H. P. Lovecraft's afterlife vision., Lovecraft's inscrutable cosmogony.

Please help me.

What kind of distressing Afterlife could be one ruled by mathemathics of chaos & bad infinity?
Does metamathemathics, natural theology, fractal geometry, quantum theories, exobiology, etc, give us a probable scientific vision of non-karmic afterlife?

I'm bewildered on how a non-karmic (if karma law doesnt exist) afterlife would be?
In defense of Bad Infinity: http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~wmartin/BadInfinity.pdf
Cosmic Horror Tropes: Cosmic Horror Story - Television Tropes & Idioms

You seem timid to go forward. Yes, it is a science forum, but it no implies you should'nt conjeture based on reason, considering the core of Theology remains inaccessible 'cause its inextricable questions.

I post in this subforum because i really want to believe in a omniscient, benevolent God, but i can't.

Bezoar wrote:

Maybe, a good example of the inexistence of karma law, is how strong is today the economy of Germany, considering they commited the worst crime against Jewish.

Germany's economy is growing because of their karma of hard-working attitude and pride in workmanship.
Their karma of committed crime against Jewish comes back to them as the loser of the war, the splitting of the country.

Originally Posted by bezoar

Biologist Rupert Sheldrake did many rigurous experiments on telepathy.

No he didn't. He did some highly flawed experiments to try and prove what he believed. When the flaws in his method and statistical analysis are pointed out it is just ignored.

All other experiments that appear to have shown psychic ability were later shown to be flawed. Any rigorous experiments have failed to produce any positive results. (Sadly.)

Originally Posted by prasit

Germany's economy is growing because of their karma of hard-working attitude and pride in workmanship.
Their karma of committed crime against Jewish comes back to them as the loser of the war, the splitting of the country.

That may indicate a problem with this idea. You can always find something good that happened to a person (or country) and say that is a result of the good things they did. And you can always find some bad things that happened and say it is the result of the bad things they did. I'm not sure you can realistically hope to demonstrate any correlation, never mind causation.

That's why it is difficult to set up experiment. Too many causes intertwined, too many consequences combined.
Also I am afraid there may be different interpretations of the karma effect in such a way that we may have difference expectations of consequence from each action.

Originally Posted by prasit

That's why it is difficult to set up experiment. Too many causes intertwined, too many consequences combined.
Also I am afraid there may be different interpretations of the karma effect in such a way that we may have difference expectations of consequence from each action.

A fanatic is convinced his actions are God-loved. The Rajnashee bioterrorist atack, the Aleph sect, in five coordinated attacks, released sarin on several lines of the Tokyo Metro, etc.

When they are put in jail, is this a karma linked to their brutal actions (commited with no conscience)? or linked to pre-mortal actions? or linked to nothing (inexistence of karma law)?

You say:there is absolutely nothing we can understand about Karma Law.
It undermines my faith in a benevolent God.

You are right, but we can speculate:
How a non-karmic (if karma law doesnt exist) afterlife would be? It raises my unspokable fear to afterlife. I could re-born in a terrible enviroment/conditions without any cause.

Originally Posted by bezoar

I could re-born in a terrible enviroment/conditions without any cause.

Maybe you already have been!

(Is there a theology/philosophy that says that this is the afterlife and we are all in hell?)

bezoar wrote:

When they are put in jail, is this a karma linked to their brutal actions (commited with no conscience)?

I think so.

You say:there is absolutely nothing we can understand about Karma Law.

Who said that?

In your view, what is the definition of Karma Law?

Karma Law....you know it's like Stefan-Boltzmann law...something about the amount of nonsense proportional to the 4th power of thread length in the philosophy forum.....

I've always had a very simple, and possibly very ignorant, understanding of karma is. Take away the idea of receiving cosmic rewards for your actions... Anyone ever hear the phrase "you reap what you sow"? Imo, that's all Karma is - You reaping you sow. And when bad stuff that is out of your control happens to you? Not Karma, just life. How you deal with that situation (unless you died, then it's like, whatever, you're dead..) however, will create the same sort of natural cause-effect cycle.

Originally Posted by Strange

Originally Posted by bezoar

I could re-born in a terrible enviroment/conditions without any cause.

Maybe you already have been!

(Is there a theology/philosophy that says that this is the afterlife and we are all in hell?)

You are a genius! The theology is called Cosmic Horror Metaphysics; Albert Camus's Phylosophy of the Absurd; Bad Infinity; H. P. Lovecrafts's cosmic horror; The Problem of Evil; Gifford's Natural Theology Conferences, etc.

There is no a 'formal' theology, of course; the basics of all wishful thinking theology and/or phylosophy is a God of Love, & a secure and predictable afterlife (you can gain your own luck in both: this earth, and the afterlife) . A secure and predictable life for religions that don´t accept the belief in any afterlife.

But, the sad true is we cant control our own luck on this earth, even being excellent christians. Our theology can't cope its worst deficience: the problem of evil, etc.

Originally Posted by stander-j

I've always had a very simple, and possibly very ignorant, understanding of karma is. Take away the idea of receiving cosmic rewards for your actions... Anyone ever hear the phrase "you reap what you sow"? Imo, that's all Karma is - You reaping you sow.

Exactly. Proportional punishments or rewards... Mathemathically proportional.
But, was the Tsunami of Asia a proportional punishment?, etc

And when bad stuff that is out of your control happens to you? Not Karma, just life. How you deal with that situation (unless you died, then it's like, whatever, you're dead..) however, will create the same sort of natural cause-effect cycle.

You are adding the 'stuff out of control': can be the bite of an ant, or a tsunami. How you can be sure the tsunami is: not karma, just life?
The australian cocrodile hunter had a terrible unexpected death? His sons orphans deserve it? they killed any father?

Of course karma exist, else why would people blame themselves? Only monkeys don't have karma; even if somebody wipe them out they wouldn't think of anything. -But we have it because we are very smart.

Originally Posted by msafwan

Of course karma exist, else why would people blame themselves?

Perhaps because they have been taught irrational beliefs.

if you do not believe in the endless cycles of life and rebirth
and you do not have a desire to end them
then karma ain't something you need to concern yourself with
.................
that being said:
be kind and gentle to dogs and children
and fair and honest with those you meet
and you may rest assured that you have lived a good life

Originally Posted by Harold14370

Originally Posted by msafwan

Of course karma exist, else why would people blame themselves?

Perhaps because they have been taught irrational beliefs.

As long as it bring good ending then it is right. It's part of human culture and it contribute to group intelligence (its passes down to society and it make the society respond to predicament in certain way). And if you didn't have it then everyone will become weaken and they'll be no better than monkeys...

Originally Posted by bezoar

Originally Posted by stander-j

I've always had a very simple, and possibly very ignorant, understanding of karma is. Take away the idea of receiving cosmic rewards for your actions... Anyone ever hear the phrase "you reap what you sow"? Imo, that's all Karma is - You reaping you sow.

Exactly. Proportional punishments or rewards... Mathemathically proportional.
But, was the Tsunami of Asia a proportional punishment?, etc

And when bad stuff that is out of your control happens to you? Not Karma, just life. How you deal with that situation (unless you died, then it's like, whatever, you're dead..) however, will create the same sort of natural cause-effect cycle.

You are adding the 'stuff out of control': can be the bite of an ant, or a tsunami. How you can be sure the tsunami is: not karma, just life?
The australian cocrodile hunter had a terrible unexpected death? His sons orphans deserve it? they killed any father?

Well, I can't be sure. It's just my belief. I don't think the Tsunami in Asia was a proportional punishment, because I don't think those exist. I don't think of Karma as a force. I think of Karma as a result of actions that you can control. Can people force a tsunami on themselves? I don't think so. I think that's just an event that is out of everyone's control, and because of that, it has no place in the idea of karma (as I understand it).

But... If you experience a Tsunami, how you deal with it... That might be Karma. If you and I are facing a tsunami disaster, and I have the opportunity to save you, but I am too cowardly to do so (and then you die) - I'd look at the guilt I'd experience in my life as a direct result of my actions (or lack thereof) and as Karma.

In the case of Steve Irwin, is not unsurprising that he was eventually killed by a wild animal? He risked his life doing that kind of job everytime he was doing it. He could've stopped doing that kind of work if he wanted to, but he didn't - and his choice is directly related to his eventual demise. So I see that as Karma - but only for him. For his children, I'd see it as another event out of their control - but an even they experienced nonetheless. And how they deal with that event will create a cause and effect cycle of karma. If one chooses to shut out the world, become estranged, and start taking drugs (because of grief) that was a choice that kid made, and no one but the kid made the choice for the kid - and the results of making those choices will have consequences. Creating Karma.

Nothing spectacular or beyond our knowledge is involved in my opinion. I think of Karma as only the results of the actions of an individual.

I enjoy speculation based on reason. How a non-karmic (if karma law doesn't exist) Afterlife would be? It raises my unspeakable fear to afterlife. I could re-birth in a terrible enviroment/conditions without any cause.

hi, i dont have too much to say about the whole god thing,

but KARMA does exist, and its proven by newton, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction,

and if you need to test it, go through one week being negative and a jerk to everyone, then go through another week with a different group being polite and positive,

then go back to each of them and find out who is more inclined to help you with a glass of water, or even a friendly hello,

we could even expand it to the next plane(x^2) where you could follow the lines of gossip and reputation, and find out your own reputation, you are guaranteed to notice that you will get treated differently,/.


.......after this think back, do you really want to piss off the suicidal pilot who is the one steering the plane....

and dying in a Tsunami isn't all bad, wat 2 min of drowning, an thats it, we all haftta die eventually, i'd prefer it over being scorched. OR LIVING A LIFE IN THE DARK AGES, btw who ruled that timezone again?

I enjoy speculation based on reason. How a non-karmic (if karma law doesn't exist) Afterlife would be? It raises my unspeakable fear to afterlife. I could re-birth in a terrible enviroment/conditions without any cause.

This thread needs more speculation, dear HARD SCIENCERS.
Cmon!, there can be a third, a fourth, a fifth alternative solution. Doggy, your argument is weak, it cant explain why some people born with terrible disabilities, etc

What about The Problem of Evil, The Misterium Iniquitates...

Karma. So.... hmm.. what if it doesn't show up in this life? I myself would not believe in it unless I had more things such as new age beliefs etc. But if I just started now, where I know possibly nothing about new age beliefs (yes i know karma is not a new age belief) then I would say karma is dumber than crap. And a person who believes in it is not intelligent. I have my mind open though. Because sometimes we can think of things that no one else thinks of.

And a person who believes in it is not intelligent.

Unfortunately, belief in the unbelievable is quite common in people who are demonstrably extremely intelligent.

Leaving aside the contentious issues of various religions - there's always homeopathy, astrology, name-your-mysticism, and various re-birth/ past lives stuff unrelated to karma as examples of beliefs that some quite intelligent people subscribe to.

Being intelligent is no guarantee against being credulous or gullible.

Originally Posted by PaulMichael

I would say karma is dumber than crap.

As an atheist, I would say that karma makes perfect sense. In the real world it is often summarised as "what goes around comes around". Destroy your environment and you will suffer the consequences. Look after your neighbours and they will probably look after you.

Baa....no science here.

Maybe not Karmic law... But I definetly believe in Murphy's Law... I think anyone who has ever done an experiment believes in Murphy's Law. And everyone I know who has been in combat believes in Murphy's Law

Originally Posted by adelady

And a person who believes in it is not intelligent.

Leaving aside the contentious issues of various religions - there's always homeopathy, astrology, name-your-mysticism, and various re-birth [transmigrationhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmigration_of_the_soul]/ past lives [pre-mortal existence (s)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhavacakra] stuff unrelated to karma as examples of beliefs that some quite intelligent people subscribe to.

From an onthological theist perspective try to explain why somo infants born with progeria/congenital skin disorder, etc? to encourage other children? doest this explamation satisfies you? why they not deserve quality of life?

postcript: the first ? was an error.

why they not deserve quality of life?

There's no deserve about it.

Karma is one among many ideas that try to bring in ideas of deserving, blaming or cursing to 'explain' the horrible accidents of birth and life generally. In my view, the worst of these is telling people that a child chooses to be born disfigured or with congenital diseases. No child chooses to be born with birthmarks or AIDS or drug addiction or Huntington's disease. I certainly didn't choose weak hands and ankles and nor did my father before me - it's just the way things happen.

(wild guess)
Karma was used as a training tool for co-existing in a complex society
adapted from the earlier religions of the sub contenant (primarily from the valley of the indus, and what is now -off shore?)
---------
but just to be on the safe side(knock on wood) I turned my tenderfoot pin right side up, and got into the habit.

Originally Posted by adelady

why they not deserve quality of life?

Karma is one among many ideas that try to bring in ideas of deserving, blaming or cursing to 'explain' the horrible accidents of birth and life generally. - it's just the way things happen.

In the cases of grave congenital skin disorder and progeria, moves me to tears the much these small children have to fight. For me it is really hard to say, but their lifes are short and full of suffering, please forgive for this: maybe they could have the right to assisted suicide or preimplantation diagnosis. This destroy my faith in divine justice.

Originally Posted by bezoar

In the cases of grave congenital skin disorder and progeria, moves me to tears the much these small children have to fight. For me it is really hard to say, but their lifes are short and full of suffering; please forgive me for this: maybe they could have the right to assisted suicide or preimplantation diagnosis. Facts like these undermines completely my faith in divine justice.

Im wondering that you, free-thinkers, scientists, have no the disposition to offer an assay, an sketch of the solution. What are you afraid of?
And please omite not logically consistent answers.

Bezoar, one time was sufficient. Three of the same post earns you a day off.
Lynx