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Thread: Twelfth Insight

  1. #1 Twelfth Insight 
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    I am interested in if anyone has read this book and has any thoughts about it.

    It came out this year by an author named James Redfield. He seems to be interested in some "New age spirituality" that has Buddhist overtones.

    In the book, Redfield uses a fictional scenario involving a group of crazies he calls "Apocolyptics" that want to start a nuclear war to bring about their version of Armageddon. The group is opposed by groups of people who connect with the divine world.

    Redfield seems to put a lot of stock in things like intuition, present moment stuff, etc. He says if you connect the right way to the divine world, then you will be lead on your life mission and will get warnings / "premonitions" about impending danger etc.

    My question is more about if anyone has any personal experiences of the type Redfield describes, as opposed to whether there are controlled studies that validate his theories.

    I just watched a You Tube video that relayed the experience of a family that barely escaped the Tsunami in Indonesia. The night before the Tsunami, their teenage son had disturbing dreams about something terrible that was going to occur on the beach the next day.
    Once I also had a premonition of danger involving a surf break that I was going to tell someone about who was about to travel to Maui. I listened and did not tell the guy about the break. The week the guy was in Maui, a surfer was killed by a shark at that break.

    Has anyone else had premonitions you believe are real, or some sense of "mission" that proved to be correct?

    Anyway, it was interesting enough for me that I ordered a few more books on intuition and non-duality (present moment mind state).


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    Oh well. I guess no one read the book. I liked it because I try and listen both to my intuition, other people, and hard evidence.

    The book dealt mostly with sharpening your intuition by "connecting with the divine". Since I am a believer, I guess that appeals to me.

    I had an interesting "experience" last week right after finishing the book that might create the opportunity for me to prospectively test the concepts in the book. The day I finished the book, I got notice from a publication that an article I submitted was rejected.

    Strangely, I had also just finished a CD on "present moment" mind states called "Lucid Living". Right after getting the rejection email, I noticed that for the rest of the day my ability to live "in the moment", without "mind chatter" dramatically improved.

    Peace of mind also improved. I had to deal with a very stressed person that day, and I really seemed to be able to dramatically "calm" the person's fears, more than usual. During this period, I had this thought about a paragraph that needed to be added to the article before re-submission.

    Now it could be that this was a form of enhanced "intuition". The test will be whether I add the paragraph, and if the article is then accepted. Or it could be that it was just my imagination. Anyway, for me it will be fun to find out.


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    Well to me the whole dream idea is just a coincidence if you think about it. One child had a dream about waves coming and creating some kind of disaster.

    First of all they live by the beach therefore the child sees a lot of water often. Water itself is actually a substance of danger in that it is difficult to navigate in sometimes, depending on current, your own strength and if you can swim or not. It is also used as advice when emarking on cautious or hindsight metaphors of dangerous situations, such examples are: 'that sinking feeling, don't jump in the deep end, treading deep water' etc. So it exists very strongly in the human mind as a struggling concept.

    All the human brain has to do during sleep is match feelings of struggle, trouble and strife and the brain would then create an image in a dream that the child is common with and can relate to easily, most commonly imprinted on the subconcious due to proximity... water. A child unaware of the existence of a volcano, is unlikely to dream of a volcano. Not to mention the fact that human children OFTEN have nightmares.

    The probablity of a child with stress in his mind (as experienced by all human beings very frequently) dreaming of a troubling situation (common in children anyawy) as a means to deal with a real life situation and simple daily stress, with this dream being of water when said child lives near water is VERY likely to happen. Its likely many people in the tsunami affected areas had similar dreams the night before and yet could not recall them.

    The probability of a supernatural implanting this common image and dream, hoping that this child would see it as a warning, and then the probability of this child remembering, THEN the parents believing this would come true? Take a stab at it. It isn't likely. Hell it isn't likely from the time I said the word 'supernatural'.

    Just because 50+50=100 doesn't mean that either 50, or the mathematical symbol is the correct one if 100 is the answer. There are an infinite number of ways to get 100.

    Was his intuition delving into the future? Who knows, what matters is that we don't start jumping to conclusions just because an untestable yet perfectly logical in principle theory makes sense.
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    "The probability of a supernatural implanting this common image and dream, hoping that this child would see it as a warning, and then the probability of this child remembering, THEN the parents believing this would come true? Take a stab at it. It isn't likely. Hell it isn't likely from the time I said the word 'supernatural'."

    Yes, many coincidences are just coincidences. Even religious texts warn of this. If I want a new consumer good, and I "coincidentally" walk by the item in a shopping mall, it probably is not a Divine event.

    However, other events such as the teenager's premonition, I am not sure you can attach a "probability" to. To apply a probablility, you would have to take the perspective of whether or not God exists. If He exists, then is a teenager getting the "message" first consistent with a religious text? I think it is consistent.

    In general, it is easier to find something if you look for it. Of course if you are "looking" for coincidences then you can see them everywhere. I think the key is whether the "coincidences" are directed toward some purpose.

    My question is whether or not this ability to see "coincidences" that move you toward some (positive) purpose can be improved. The book suggests that this is possible.
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    Confirmation bias is a pretty well studied phenomena in how we think. If you think some of your dreams might turn out to be true, your dead husband is using a wind chime to communicate, your being followed then you'll remember those "coincidental events," or your mind will imagine those events.
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    However, other events such as the teenager's premonition, I am not sure you can attach a "probability" to. To apply a probablility, you would have to take the perspective of whether or not God exists. If He exists, then is a teenager getting the "message" first consistent with a religious text? I think it is consistent.
    Consistent with something you can't prove. And then if you knew god existed you could ask him if he warned the kid instead of actually helping the poor f**kers himself.

    I think the key is whether the "coincidences" are directed toward some purpose.
    In general, it is easier to find something if you look for it.
    There you go.

    My question is whether or not this ability to see "coincidences" that move you toward some (positive) purpose can be improved. The book suggests that this is possible.
    No, there is no ability of extra-sensory perception. Its BULLSHIT and the person selling it made money from you and others buying that it is, or might be.

    Look I understand the compassion that goes into these theories and ideas, taht someone is helping others and giving something to understand or give to the world, but in reality that is a great concept but its a bit of a delusional one to believe we can see bad events and change them. We can see bad events, some and then some not. The only ones you can see are the ones in your perception. Ones out of it? You're screwed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Confirmation bias is a pretty well studied phenomena in how we think. If you think some of your dreams might turn out to be true, your dead husband is using a wind chime to communicate, your being followed then you'll remember those "coincidental events," or your mind will imagine those events.
    Agreed.

    That is why I think to have any real merit, you would need to look at "coincidences" that move you toward some purpose.

    Then maybe you could see a couple "coincidences" that move you in the same direction.

    However, you would have to continuously test your path for evidence that you were moving in a direction that can produce a real result.

    Other than that, rarely a person can have a "bad feeling" about something, and just withdraw or leave without any real evidence that something bad was likely. I think this is reasonable behavior as long it is rare.
    Last edited by dedo; April 5th, 2012 at 05:18 PM.
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    I havent read the book the 12th insight. Can you recap what the 10th and 11th insights were?


    Premonition: The other day I had a bad feeling something bad would happen. But nothing bad happened. I forgot about it until I read your post. But if something had happened I would be telling you about how I predicted it, and would have told many people, but I havent gone around saying I had a bad feeling that was a dudd. So imo, to measure the amazement of predictions, you cant rely on one example of a prediction that happened to have come true, you would have to investigate all the premonitions people had in the same year as the year premonition X occurred, so you would have a percentage. If you conclude that 1% of premonitions actually can be interpreted as having come true the confetti shower factor and paranormal overtones are diminished.


    This being said I think its possible to predict the (potential/likely) future in some ways. Seeing a toddler dance on a chair with a nearly full glass of grape fruit juice will grant you unsuspected powers of prediction.
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    I think the 10 th involves our ability to connect to deceased relatives for the purpose of elevating the living to a higher level of consciousness. The 11 th involves invoking the power of collective intention and prayer.

    Redfield indicates that the collective "awakening" is sort of a connection to God and each other. This is opposed by separation, the desire to control etc. The opposing force is moving the world toward collective conflict / war / armageddon, that is completely avoidable.

    You seem to be outlining an experimental design to test the validity of premonitions. It seems reasonable. Volunteers could keep journals and write down these premonitions. Then you could see if any come true. You could also add variables to see if this ability can be improved.

    Also, your analogy for "predicting the future" is similar to a description used by Ted Dekker in a religious fiction book called "Blink". In the book, a character develops an enhanced ability to "see the future". The character does not see one future, he sees all possible futures like pages being flipped through a book. Thus, the future is not fixed. Although God can see all the futures, we also can see some "futures" as well.

    I think Redfield is suggesting spiritual techniques for people to connect to God, and each other, so as to avoid "negative futures".
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  11. #10 dreams-premonition-prophecies etc. 
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    Dedo,

    I was looking for information on the boy dreams about the 2004 tsunami and found your message.

    Premonitions are very rare phenomena, even though they are the most common studied in Institutes of Parapsychology worldwide. Yes, there are records of real premonitions and this one about the tsunami, I would call it a prophecy.

    I am now 45 and when I was 22 a premonition happened in my life. My English is not perfect since I'm Brazillian and live in Brazil. After this fulfilled premonition, where I saw myself and people I would meet 3 months later, I decided to read about it to find something. I found the following:

    Even though Internet helps (it also damages) this subject is still widely poor studied. There are basically 2 kinds of people related to prophecy: those who forge them and those who claim this is not possible and they are all lies. The 0.0001% (whatever) in which this dreamer boy is is usually forgotten. I wrote a book about it, not published in English, after researching about 20 years on this subject. I quit University when I was 22 because of the premonition, I wrote it because this was the event in my life that impressed me most. Still, some people think I wrote to make money.

    I just would like to tell you it is not easy to find good information about it, read books on parapsychology, you will find amazing things. This thing exists, but PHD people won't believe. On a general way, they know so much on this subject as the ignorant people who forge everything. Go for the 0.0001%.



    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    I think the 10 th involves our ability to connect to deceased relatives for the purpose of elevating the living to a higher level of consciousness. The 11 th involves invoking the power of collective intention and prayer.

    Redfield indicates that the collective "awakening" is sort of a connection to God and each other. This is opposed by separation, the desire to control etc. The opposing force is moving the world toward collective conflict / war / armageddon, that is completely avoidable.

    You seem to be outlining an experimental design to test the validity of premonitions. It seems reasonable. Volunteers could keep journals and write down these premonitions. Then you could see if any come true. You could also add variables to see if this ability can be improved.

    Also, your analogy for "predicting the future" is similar to a description used by Ted Dekker in a religious fiction book called "Blink". In the book, a character develops an enhanced ability to "see the future". The character does not see one future, he sees all possible futures like pages being flipped through a book. Thus, the future is not fixed. Although God can see all the futures, we also can see some "futures" as well.

    I think Redfield is suggesting spiritual techniques for people to connect to God, and each other, so as to avoid "negative futures".
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    And to sum up, dedo, I'm not the only one who wrote a book after a premonition who changed his or her life. I know at least a couple of others, writers who wrote about the future (jules verne etc.) and wrote prophecies etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    I think the 10 th involves our ability to connect to deceased relatives for the purpose of elevating the living to a higher level of consciousness. The 11 th involves invoking the power of collective intention and prayer.

    Redfield indicates that the collective "awakening" is sort of a connection to God and each other. This is opposed by separation, the desire to control etc. The opposing force is moving the world toward collective conflict / war / armageddon, that is completely avoidable.

    You seem to be outlining an experimental design to test the validity of premonitions. It seems reasonable. Volunteers could keep journals and write down these premonitions. Then you could see if any come true. You could also add variables to see if this ability can be improved.

    Also, your analogy for "predicting the future" is similar to a description used by Ted Dekker in a religious fiction book called "Blink". In the book, a character develops an enhanced ability to "see the future". The character does not see one future, he sees all possible futures like pages being flipped through a book. Thus, the future is not fixed. Although God can see all the futures, we also can see some "futures" as well.

    I think Redfield is suggesting spiritual techniques for people to connect to God, and each other, so as to avoid "negative futures".
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  13. #12  
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    Hi Fabio:

    It sounds like you had a pretty powerful experience.

    Since I am a believer, I wonder if we can sharpen our ability to hear "warnings", if they come -- without becoming paranoid.

    I have dealt with risky situations over the years and I have had not infrequent "feelings' to go check on something and I got there "just in time".

    I have also had erie feelings at other times, including while surfing. Once I was at a break on Saturday and then interviewed a guy on Monday that was paralyzed at the exact same break, on the same day, within hours of when I was there.

    Before doing anything dangerous, I always say a prayer (Hail Mary)

    From my perspective, that is why I am still here.

    Sadly, today I read a Thanksgiving message by a guy that writes for a financial newsletter I get. He wrote his message for Thanksgiving for this company last year also.

    Between last year and this year he was paralyzed body surfing in Nicaragua. Amazingly, he is still thankful.

    I thought I would relay his experience somewhere because bodysurfing, especially in shore breaks is very dangerous.

    The message put some things in perspective for me.

    We all have a lot to be thankful for.
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    Wow!

    What a complete load of garbage. There are no premonitions, the most you can get is a logical conclusion given the evidence, we are born to learn and from that we dream/imagine we only perceive a small percentage of the things that go on around us every day of our lives, so it is quite understandable that we imagine things we haven't perceived.

    When Leonard De Vinci invented his helicopter, he did it because he had seen a seed fall from a tree much like the maple and probably thought if it spins like that going down it would go up if reversed.
    He never had a premonition that there would be helicopters in the future though he may of imagine it was possible.

    He used the knowledge and the things around him.

    I've never read so much complete and utter BS in my life. I.E. Jules Verne had premonitions and a boy saw the tsunami in a dream there have been a myriad of disasters, throughout history, and the boy had probably read about them or was told or came across small versions and imagine what it would be like big. Have you never seen a minor flood or a river break it's banks it not to much of a step to imagine something larger, that does not make it a premonition.

    How stupid!
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    I have also had erie feelings at other times, including while surfing. Once I was at a break on Saturday and then interviewed a guy on Monday that was paralyzed at the exact same break, on the same day, within hours of when I was there.

    Before doing anything dangerous, I always say a prayer (Hail Mary)

    From my perspective, that is why I am still here.
    No it isn't.
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    Well Well.

    We haven't seen this kind of emotion in a while. That is good.

    Passion indicates energy. Energy leads to new insights.

    To believe in premonitions is completely reasonable IF you believe in God. If God exists, then you would expect that He would warn people about impending danger or bad decisions.

    However, I think it can be dangerous to devote too much effort to the subject as it can lead to be being obsessive.

    I really wanted primarily to mention the issue of messing around in shore breaks because of the number of spinal cord injuries associated with this. Really, it deserves an article in a mainstream magazine. One year in the Outer Banks of North Carolina I recall that there was 3 spinal cord injuries (quadriplegia), and one drowning in a single weekend. In Hawaii, some beaches have "broken neck" warnings on beach signs.

    That was my main point -- for the young / old dare devils.

    Also, another kind of "premonition" can just be a "prompting of the conscience" that you should do something. Sometimes I have these "promptings", like everyone else, do to do something for someone or to speak out about some moral issue in society etc. In general though, I usually look for some "confirmation" before acting.

    On a recent trip to Hawaii, I had such a "prompting" to do something for someone. It seemed crazy because I don't know the person that well. However, the "prompting" seemed to be repeated, with an additional proviso of some "unpleasantness" headed my way should I choose not to follow through. Well, I did put it off for the weekend because I had to work Thanksgiving weekend. Sure enough, I got pounded and our load was almost double the usual busy weekend although everything seemed to go well. Then on Monday, this "prompting" came again that sounded to me like" "Would you like to hesitate again?"

    Since it is something I really did want to do anyway, but was too nervous to try, the combined "promptings" caused me to go ahead and try.

    I wouldn't call that a "premonition", just an act of the conscience. However, premonitions may just be a stronger "prompting".
    Last edited by dedo; November 28th, 2012 at 09:28 AM.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    We haven't seen this kind of emotion in a while. That is good. Passion indicates energy. Energy leads to new insights.
    So insight is equivalent to mass as well? This is why we have a weighted discussion?

    To believe in premonitions is completely reasonable IF you believe in God.
    Of course, that is like saying you believe you can live forever if you go to neverland.

    If God exists, then you would expect that He would warn people about impending danger or bad decisions.
    Well seeing as much of an asshole he is I doubt it, I do believe we are talking about the Judeo-Christian God?

    However, I think it can be dangerous to devote too much effort to the subject as it can lead to be being obsessive.
    Yes, you don't want to start a religion. Imagine all the good we could do teaching people about premonitions instead of real world wit and intuition!

    I really wanted primarily to mention the issue of messing around in shore breaks because of the number of spinal cord injuries associated with this. Really, it deserves an article in a mainstream magazine. One year in the Outer Banks of North Carolina I recall that there was 3 spinal cord injuries (quadriplegia), and one drowning in a single weekend. In Hawaii, some beaches have "broken neck" warnings on beach signs.
    What has this got to do with premonitions? If you go about doing dangerous sports you are going to get an injury I mean that is common sense you don't need supernatural premonitions to tell you not to do stupid things, I hope you wouldn't need anyway.

    Also, another kind of "premonition" can just be a "prompting of the conscience" that you should do something.
    That is intuition, there is nothing supernatural about them. Your mind picks up on something (instincts) that your conscious mind doesn't know about yet).

    Sometimes I have these "promptings", like everyone else, do to do something for someone or to speak out about some moral issue in society etc. In general though, I usually look for some "confirmation" before acting.
    That's more like an emotional response as opposed to a premonition, you feel compassion or rigtheous indignation. What is a sign of confirmation? A divine confirmation? So you are saying you need something supernatural to happen before you help someone? I seriously hope that is not the case.

    On a recent trip to Hawaii, I had such a "prompting" to do something for someone. It seemed crazy because I don't know the person that well. However, the "prompting" seemed to be repeated, with an additional proviso of some "unpleasantness" headed my way should I choose not to follow through. Well, I did put it off for the weekend because I had to work Thanksgiving weekend. Sure enough, I got pounded and our load was almost double the usual busy weekend although everything seemed to go well. Then on Monday, this "prompting" came again that sounded to me like" "Would you like to hesitate again?"
    Thes are totally unrelated, these two feelings of intuition are not aware of each other, also you haven't explained what you are being reminded of. I sometimes hesitate around a corner when in the car, sure enough I see a car. I used to say to myself "That was wierd", but it was probably my ears, or light reflecting, something that my eyes saw or senses picked up on that I didn't consciously recognise. This is common when driving when you go on autopilot sometimes, your autononomous responses take over. Your senses do as well, then they react to things you aren't aware of.

    Since it is something I really did want to do anyway, but was too nervous to try, the combined "promptings" caused me to go ahead and try.
    So you again need divine intervention or premonitions to guide you in your life, maybe you just spontaneously thought or felt like doing something else there is nothing supernatural about that.

    I wouldn't call that a "premonition", just an act of the conscience. However, premonitions may just be a stronger "prompting".
    I see that you are sincere but it sounds to me like you have just confused intution with premonitions; one is supernatural and the other is not. But like all religious believers you seek to understand something by explaining it supernaturally because it is easier to understand that way and it also backs up your belief. But in reality it is nothing supernatural or divine.
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    Sorry for the late response -- I am trying to meet some deadlines, so my ability to respond is a little weaker.

    I don't think that "intuition vs premonition" is typically thought of as "instinct vs. supernatural". Rather, the distinction I have heard is that "intuition" deals more with immediate events and "premonition" deals more with future events. Thus, the difference is a little blurred. Since believers like to connect with God during the day, both could have a supernatural component.

    Your comments about God show: 1. False conclusions about the nature of God based on limited second hand information, not communication with God. 2. A lack of understanding about how God communicates.

    It is easy to develop false conclusions about someone that you don't have contact with. I did that recently myself and I was wrong. Also, God does not communicate in the same way people do. God's communication is indirect. A large part of human communication is also indirect, (relationships, stories, diplomacy, etc.). However, we always have the option to communicate directly with each other. Thus, from my perspective, the indirect communication that I attribute to God is good, and meant totally for my benefit and growth. So my conclusions are based on that.

    Also, I was probably too confusing about what I was "reminded of". It was an offer to do something for someone who has helped me in the past. The individual seemed to be indirectly signaling a possible interest in working together in the future, perhaps after the holidays. So the offer was intended to signal back that, "the door is open", as well as to suggest a small short term, fun, project that we could cooperate on as an alternative to get to know each other better. Although, I acted on intuition, later my rational mind decided it was a good idea because collective creativity depends on some factors, such as trust, that take time to develop. The fun project might also help develop a friendship whether we ended up working together or not.

    The shore break issue is just something my "intuition" suggested I could elaborate on. It could be relevant because every endeavor has some risk that should be considered. Shore breaks look like "something to do at the beach" to people who don't live near the ocean. People who have experience know.

    Thus, decision making from rational analysis or "intuition" are both improved from education, training, and experience. I believe that decisions are also improved from supernatural guidance to the extent that we cooperate with that guidance.
    Last edited by dedo; December 2nd, 2012 at 07:54 PM.
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