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  • Easy to have guessed 1400 years ago

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Thread: So how did religion know so much about space?

  1. #1 So how did religion know so much about space? 
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    -The Universe is ever expanding
    -The world is in an orbit
    -The sun is also in an orbit

    But we knew this 1400 years ago, the video in the link below shows this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL66nb4mkks

    And if you think that was just lucky, then you should watch the entire documentary or just another snipit.

    REALLY AMAZING, in my eyes. What do you think?


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  3. #2  
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    I have ehard that before, it has probebly more to do with how you translate it. Each centry reads the book different compared to the one before. But it has also to do with the human nature of finding what you want to find, i guess.


    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    But it has also to do with the human nature of finding what you want to find, i guess.
    I see where your coming from, but then you could also try to find faults within other parts of the book. Your welcome to look but nothing has been found.

    It is not a vague as you'd think
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  5. #4  
    Jon
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    I have dialup, so if someone would be kind enough to sum up at least one of the points in that video, I would be most appreciative :-D.

    Maybe then we can focus on one of those points, and continue from there. By the way, what 1400 year old source is this?




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  6. #5  
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    it is vaue unless it says that the earth orbit around the sun, with a proximate speed of 32km/s and that the sun in turn orbit a giant cluster of stars, the centre of those, with a speed of aproximently 300km/s. Else its vague, such thiong as the distance moon travel blablabla is vague becuase then you can make calculations and find what you want
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  7. #6  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Sorry, the source is the Holly Qur'an.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    it is vaue unless it says that the earth orbit around the sun, with a proximate speed of 32km/s and that the sun in turn orbit a giant cluster of stars, the centre of those, with a speed of aproximently 300km/s. Else its vague, such thiong as the distance moon travel blablabla is vague becuase then you can make calculations and find what you want
    Dont you think Zelos that at the time it was written, even to come as close as it has to showing the truth crystal clearly, its amazing!

    If I was to really push you to watch one more, then I'd say the one below would be a nice one. To sum it up, its about word repetition within the book.

    For example:
    the word 'day' is repeated 365 times
    the plural meaning, i.e. 'days' is repeated 30 times
    the word 'moon' is repeated 12 times

    For a man to have written a book about life on earth and outside of it, while keeping these word repetitions the way it is, as well as being ilterate. So in essence its whether you believe the Holy Qur'an is the word of man or something else.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QN8eoCwrBw
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  8. #7  
    Jon
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    For example:
    the word 'day' is repeated 365 times
    the plural meaning, i.e. 'days' is repeated 30 times
    the word 'moon' is repeated 12 times
    Seriously? That's all it's got? Um, that's just flat out rediculous. Anyone who found that was either looking really hard, or had too much time on his hands. Probably both though .




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  9. #8  
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    the word 'day' is repeated 365 times
    the plural meaning, i.e. 'days' is repeated 30 times
    the word 'moon' is repeated 12 times
    then its what i said, they didnt say it was that, but someone found that many times and its a exemple of finding what you want to find
    romans did even nbefore them calculate 365,2425 days is a year, a month were for them about 28-29 days, they knew it and had calculated it. So whats the special? ancient greeks could even calculate the radius of earth. They gave mathematical formulas and values, thats known, what you are saying is vague and human wanting
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  10. #9  
    Jon
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    Don't forget the Maya... who had the most exact calendar until the Gregorian .




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  11. #10  
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    think their calander where even more exact. Anyhow, those civilizations knew all that stuff and more. they used mathematic and gave specefic calculations and numbers for that. They said "a year is blablabla" where blablabla is their way of counting time
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    For example:
    the word 'day' is repeated 365 times
    the plural meaning, i.e. 'days' is repeated 30 times
    the word 'moon' is repeated 12 times
    Seriously? That's all it's got?
    No Jon theres much more, too much. What is so unique about all the information given is that there are no contradictions or false facts, if you were looking for them.

    BTW there have been and still are people trying to look for the things that are wrong with the information given, unbelievers. And they do try hard (guessing).

    As for the Word repetitions, if you looked at the video it shows many more. If they looked for certain things and found them and disregarded others that did not satisfy their belief(if that happened), then for the info they did find to still be as "spot on" as it is just on its own, even if you do not interlink it with the other information given, it is outsanding.

    For example:
    Punishment = 117
    Forgiveness = 234 (2 X 117)

    /\ That may be looking for it, but other information given in other parts the book speak about how forgiving God is.

    One last thing, the book also spoke about the Romans and their future battles. The video below shows this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7QqV-Mj7n4

    Sorry if I went on and on :P
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  13. #12  
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    still, thats nothing special information becuase that kind of calculations had already been done by advnaced civilization, egypts, romans etc

    One last thing, the book also spoke about the Romans and their future battles. The video below shows this.
    guess what, roman empire had fallen when that book was written

    For example:
    Punishment = 117
    Forgiveness = 234 (2 X 117)

    /\ That may be looking for it, but other information given in other parts the book speak about how forgiving God is.
    this has anythign to do with this becuase?

    What is so unique about all the information given is that there are no contradictions or false facts, if you were looking for them.
    how great is their accuracy?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  14. #13  
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    i took a look on that kind of stuff, the stuff i saw taken from the book were VERSES. it had almost 0% accuracy and could be interpritated in several ways. Its all about finding what you want to find

    But for the sake of fairness, about 500 years after, or was it 1000? anyhow the arabian golden age were. In that time the mathematical knowledge and such expanded and were advnaced significanly. They could have been calculating alot of the stuff, such as month, days. Of course it had already been done atleast 3 times by 3 different civilization before them, maybe they just went there and took it
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Of course it had already been done atleast 3 times by 3 different civilization before them, maybe they just went there and took it
    So the book stole information from these civilizations, but these civilisations made MANY predictions. If the book did take information from them (1400 years ago) then it only took the correct things, pretty lucky then, no?

    But then the book speaks of the development of a baby within a womans womb, about the seven atmospheric layers that surround the earth - which could only be proven by 'todays' technology. They weren't as advanced as you think. Those civilizations did make some good predictions, but a heck of a lot of wrong ones too.

    For example,
    One civilisation -before the book was introduced- claimed that the earth orbited around the sun (Many others said otherwise). Which the book also mentions. The same civilization said the Sun was the center of the Universe and that it stood still in its place. The book disagrees, and then continues providing more information about the rest of the Univeerse, such as it is ever expanding.

    Even if they were looking for this type of information in the book, they didn't make it up - its there, whether you look at it from one point of view or another.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    guess what, roman empire had fallen when that book was written
    Im not the best historian but it also spoke of the Byzantine, if you look at the video it explains it better than I do :P But it speaks of one of the great turn overs in Powers, and how it took place at the lowest point on Earth. Where did this turnover in power take place? The Dead Sea, which modern science has proven is the lowest point on Earth.

    So they were right about:
    - lowest point on Earth
    - the turnover of Power
    - the two sides who fought and who gained the Power and who lost the Power

    The book will always be too vague, however detailed it is
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  17. #16  
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    So the book stole information from these civilizations, but these civilisations made MANY predictions. If the book did take information from them (1400 years ago) then it only took the correct things, pretty lucky then, no?
    maybe it werent taken 1400 years ago, it could have been taked 900 years ago and been added to the book, after 900 years no one would know the differens between the 1400 and 900 one

    But then the book speaks of the development of a baby within a womans womb,
    leonardo did something simular in the darkage i think. In the golden age they could once again have added it afterward without anyone knowing.

    about the seven atmospheric layers that surround the earth
    do they describe the propeties of this? if not then it can be a coincident taht they thought of air as 7 layers, number 7 comes often in religion and such so it might just be another 7 case, 7 dwarves, lucky 7 etc

    One civilisation -before the book was introduced- claimed that the earth orbited around the sun (Many others said otherwise). Which the book also mentions. The same civilization said the Sun was the center of the Universe and that it stood still in its place. The book disagrees, and then continues providing more information about the rest of the Univeerse, such as it is ever expanding.
    i read that part, it says something like sun, moon and earth going in rounded pathes, moon/earth is pretty obvius, but sun doesnt have to be around galaxy center, it can simply be the center of mass in the soler system, its a rounded path, ofcourse a very smnall one but still a orbit wich could be the one

    The book will always be too vague
    you agree, it isnt accurate enoughg to say it is exacly what they mean, btw any rpediction made will be fullfilled by the vagueness
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    it could have been taked 900 years ago and been added to the book, after 900 years no one would know the differens between the 1400 and 900 one
    they could once again have added it afterward
    coincident
    What if someone could prove to you not a word had been changed over 1400 years (unlike the Bible, the Torah, etc.). Would that challenge your view on the Religion and on 'Sciencology' altogether? Would it, with all the information you have seen the book has given you about life and the universe, let alone the information you have yet to see, including the signs of the last day? It just gets more interesting. Even if it doesn't challenge your views and opinions on life, it damn well is amazing.

    i read that part, it says something like sun, moon and earth going in rounded pathes, moon/earth is pretty obvius, but sun doesnt have to be around galaxy center, it can simply be the center of mass in the soler system, its a rounded path, ofcourse a very smnall one but still a orbit wich could be the one
    I do understand, but the civilisations predicted many things, but they specificaly stated the Sun stood still and the Universe moved around it. But then, that was from the word of Man, so you cant blame them :P

    The book will always be too vague
    you agree, it isnt accurate enoughg to say it is exacly what they mean, btw any rpediction made will be fullfilled by the vagueness
    Well Zelos I actually said "The book will always be too vague, however detailed it is" Sorry I was talking about it for the people who are sceptical of the Religion, simply because "I think" they try to find a way out. A way out of the duties it calls for.
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  19. #18  
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    What if someone could prove to you not a word had been changed over 1400 years (unlike the Bible, the Torah, etc.). Would that challenge your view on the Religion and on 'Sciencology' altogether? Would it, with all the information you have seen the book has given you about life and the universe, let alone the information you have yet to see, including the signs of the last day? It just gets more interesting. Even if it doesn't challenge your views and opinions on life, it damn well is amazing.
    if you could prove that and tell me that the book have a 99% accuracy of the information in question. nothing vague, it would have to describe the propeties of the layers, their approximate height etc

    but they specificaly stated the Sun stood still and the Universe moved around it
    who knows, maybe some civilization didnt say sun stood still and said it were moving
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    but they specificaly stated the Sun stood still and the Universe moved around it
    who knows, maybe some civilization didnt say sun stood still and said it were moving
    Well then as I said the book damn well choose the right civilisation to copy lol and then copied from other civilisations about other issues on life, and totally fluked it and got so lucky as to chosing all the right information to put in, which could only be verfied and proven with todays technologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    What if someone could prove to you not a word had been changed over 1400 years (unlike the Bible, the Torah, etc.). Would that challenge your view on the Religion and on 'Sciencology' altogether? Would it, with all the information you have seen the book has given you about life and the universe, let alone the information you have yet to see, including the signs of the last day? It just gets more interesting. Even if it doesn't challenge your views and opinions on life, it damn well is amazing.
    if you could prove that and tell me that the book have a 99% accuracy of the information in question. nothing vague, it would have to describe the propeties of the layers, their approximate height etc
    Below is a link to the entire video I showed before. Its an hour long, and i'd be surprised if you watched it, but it is a good experience to have throughout life, muslim or not.

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...miracles+quran


    Vagueness is a large factor for your denial of the originality of this book.
    So your saying the words are talking about something else, then what we think they are saying? Example?
    (sorry i know your not a specialist in Islam)
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    Well then as I said the book damn well choose the right civilisation to copy lol and then copied from other civilisations about other issues on life, and totally fluked it and got so lucky as to chosing all the right information to put in, which could only be verfied and proven with todays technologies.
    not really, they could prove it with trigometry and observations, atleast 3 great civilizations where almost next door to arabians.

    So your saying the words are talking about something else, then what we think they are saying? Example?
    it said something like "earth, moon, and the sun moving in rounded pathses" or something like that, moon around earth, earth around usn, okey i can buy that. but then you and some others claim it would be sun around galaxy. but it can also be sun around the center of mass, or even the apperent rounded path sun takes during a day, and year. that can be interpritated in many many ways. isnt exact enough to say they knew
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  22. #21  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Well then as I said the book damn well choose the right civilisation to copy lol and then copied from other civilisations about other issues on life, and totally fluked it and got so lucky as to chosing all the right information to put in, which could only be verfied and proven with todays technologies.
    not really, they could prove it with trigometry and observations, atleast 3 great civilizations where almost next door to arabians.
    I dont know where your getting your information from, but by some chance even if this were true. The 'people' who wrote the book, really did their research, including even more things that could not be proven or even predicted until today.

    So your saying the words are talking about something else, then what we think they are saying? Example?
    it said something like "earth, moon, and the sun moving in rounded pathses" or something like that, moon around earth, earth around usn, okey i can buy that. but then you and some others claim it would be sun around galaxy. but it can also be sun around the center of mass, or even the apperent rounded path sun takes during a day, and year. that can be interpritated in many many ways. isnt exact enough to say they knew
    The book wasn't given JUST to prove it was the word of God. It was given as a guide to life, and throughout the book it refers to different entities within life. The information given talks about these things in life with knowledge of its workings, again and again and again ...

    If part of the information given was proven to be wrong (such as it has been proven to be correct), then it would be from the word of 'man'.
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  23. #22  
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    I dont know where your getting your information from, but by some chance even if this were true. The 'people' who wrote the book, really did their research, including even more things that could not be proven or even predicted until today.
    history of ancient great civilizations.

    If part of the information given was proven to be wrong (such as it has been proven to be correct), then it would be from the word of 'man'.
    the entire book is from MAN to MAN by MAN, thats how all holy books/scripts are
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    I dont know where your getting your information from,
    The Egyptians had determined the length of the year 4,500 years BCE. That is 5,000 years before The Koran was written. That seems sufficient time for word to have got around. :?
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  25. #24  
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    yepp, babylons did the same, they invented the 12month tradition. they came with 360° thing by saying a year, a circle around the sun, is 360 days. they realsied eventualy it was raong and about 365 were correct
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    I dont know where your getting your information from,
    The Egyptians had determined the length of the year 4,500 years BCE. That is 5,000 years before The Koran was written. That seems sufficient time for word to have got around. :?
    I was asking where zelos got his information from, simply because one time, he'd say one civilization predicted something at a certain time, then another time said two, then back to one, then to three. I have a general understanding of ancient scientific practices. But my point was not only about the '365' mentions of the word 'day' in the book, but about all the scientific facts that it has been proven to be correct about, and how they didn't come from one or a couple of civilisations, simply because they were UNKNOWN, and unprdictable. Again I would really like to refer you to the video link below:

    http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...miracles+quran
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  27. #26  
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    Can I ask who voted 'Amazing'
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  28. #27  
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    but about all the scientific facts that it has been proven to be correct about
    accurecy is insuffient to call it facts
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    But my point was not only about the '365' mentions of the word 'day' in the book, but about all the scientific facts that it has been proven to be correct about, and how they didn't come from one or a couple of civilisations, simply because they were UNKNOWN, and unprdictable. Again I would really like to refer you to the video link below:
    For those who lack the interest to look at the video, or are on dial-up, please summarise a few detailed examples.
    Thank you.
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  30. #29  
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    ok ok, I had just posted a LONG essay on another forum..he he he

    Anyhoo, here's a portion of it: -

    First and foremost, I have to say that although Islam and just about every religion on this planet (according to some..and I'm sorry to offend anyone) seems like its been invented. I have to say that trial-error reasoning has shown that the Qurán, at least, could not have been made up for various reasons: -

    1) The Scientific evidence behind the Qurán exceeds the know-how of the generation during which it was brought down. For instance: -
    a. [He erected heaven and established the balance. (Surat ar-Rahman, 7)] This has been interpreted by various Scholars and Scientists to be an indication of the delicate balance of life on the planet we live in. Not to mention the astronomical importance of such a verse when it comes to describing the gravitational underlying of the solar system and the galaxies.
    b. [Surat An-Nahl (16:70] Allah describes the medicinal qualities of the honey derived from bees as being the cure for all illnesses. Honey has been shown to be a scientifically proven bactericidal agent when applied on a wound as a dressing. Not only does it inhibit viable bacterial growth, but its successful in actually killing the bacteria due to the non-somato-cytotoxic concentration of Hydrogen Peroxide found in it. Also, recent studies have shown that honey acts as a viable antiviral drug a well (PM me for more info)! Not to mention Allah’s description of the bee hive’s structure. Of all the mathematically significant structures, the bee seems to construct its hive hexagonally. This, through mathematical proportionality, has been show to be the most stable and efficient structure for appropriate development of the pupae and storage of a maximal amount of honey.
    c. There are also various citations throughout the Qurán of Astronomical significance such as the vivid “Oily Rose” [Al-Rahman-55] depiction of a recently discovered Crab Nebula; might I add a nebula not spotted with the naked eye or primitive magnifying aids.
    d. The Geological evidence behind creation present in the Qurán is also astounding. For instance, in the 30th Part of the Quran [Final 37 chapters], there’s a plethora of geological information that I know arab’s back in that time period could not have deciphered on their own. For instance, the mention of the “division of the seas by mountains” seems up surd. But, a closer look at the Pacific Ring of Fire proves otherwise. Not to mention the mountainous dividends between the Indian and Pacific oceans. Also, when there is mention that “The Earth shall empty itself”; does this not refer to volcanic activity? And, how could Arabs who live in a relatively dormant area of volcanic activity know that?
    e. I could go on and on, but it would take too long. Please PM for more.
    2) The Qurán was considered to be fictitious tall-telling of a mad poet when it first made its debut. So, if a poet could write with such meaning, why can’t another LITERATE poet do the same and still provide the same sense of satisfaction. Well, a historical gathering of poets was conducted to discredit the Qurán during its first days and all of Arabia’s finest poets failed to mimic the Qurán. Even Muhammed (pbuh) did not attempt to mimic it because he knew its source full well. This is also the reason why any attempt at fabricating portions with in the Qurán have failed to this day; for it remains unchanged.
    I can see where Zelos is comming from and the evidence that many others have brought up, and I understand their prespective, but I tackled this subject objectively.

    Even if they were looking for this type of information in the book, they didn't make it up - its there, whether you look at it from one point of view or another.
    Exactly right! That's the whole point with the Qur'an. Every scientific mention the in Qura'n has been shown to correlate to the concept of " absolute truth". As in well known, absolute truth is a seperate entity from society and the codes of morals and ethics, thereby making it unbiased and objective in all reasoning. No matter what people say or do, it stays absolute; that's why the Quran is so amazing. Predictions or the Divine word of God, its still truth and proves to be parallel with that truth, which is why it os taken to be a symbol of Divine intervention by Muslims.

    Also, with regards to why the Qur'an isn't as in depth when it comes to the accounts of science...it actually is. Its just taking the scholars longer and longer to decipher it. Each decade, a new scientific discovery is made...a great deal of them become evident in the Qur'an...the problem was that no one knew what that passege meant because they had never experienced that discovery as of yet. Also, just on a side note, these disoveries could not have been shadely ammended by individuals over the years...the oldest Quran (Now in present day Turkey) has been anthropologically Carbon dated and subjected to tests to ensure its authenticity...there was no scientific evidence of tampering or additions. Every Qura'n poublished to this day and age is the same as the one compiled 1400 years ago. Objective reasoning...i think so.

    I understand what Ophiolite and Zelos mean and what is a scientific conjecture without its criticism...they are true scientists and I applaud them for it . However, all experimentation and research needs is time and it will be proven or disproven. Thus far, the Qur'an has bveen justified and I have yet to see it get disproven.

    And..I think I was the one who voted Amazing..but I just registered, so I dunno .
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    still not very convincing though, alot of the items mentioned come down to how you interpret it. you can find amazing predictions/coincedences in so many books it you want to find them. 1984, brave new world etc.

    heres a few for you

    Democritus of abdera 460-370 bc mentioned the existance of atoms(from which the greek atomon comes meaning "indivisible") he described everything being made of either space or atoms

    Plato 427-347bc saw a mathematical form and order to the universe

    Then theres the discoverys of Archimedes 287-212bc,


    an intersting one is Hipparchus 170-125bc who worked out the length of a year within 6and a half minutes of what we know today, determine the length of the seasons and the arc that were taken( therefore jagoman's original statement about religion knowing about orbits of earth and sun was known well over 2000years ago well before religious books, sorry)


    Galen of pergamum 130-201ad who had the basics of the working of the heart and lungs together(he noted how blood was pumped from the heart to lungs where it mixed with life(which we know know as oxygen))


    and they are just off the top of my head


    The honey thing was known in even earlier history than 1400years ago as a cure as was the use of willow bark(aspirin) as a cure for pain and numerous other things, some worked, some didn't but all old, those things could go back as far as man. Just because now we know more about them doesn't mean the ancients didn't use them as medicine, back to the willow(aspirin)thats has recently(in history) been discovered to thin blood and reduce clots for people with heart conditions therefore the pre-history man must also have been amazing too.

    you mentioned your god said it was "the cure for all illness" which it isn't so is that statement right? maybe "a cure for some" would have been closer but then doesnt seem so amazing. Also you said your gods description of a bee-hive, thats just an observation and could have been made by any man and the mathematics behind that could have been done pre 1400 years ago

    And the Crab nebula was a bad choice to make a point, because it was known in supernova form about as far back as july 4th 1054 by chinese astronomers and was well watched worldwide for many years from then because of its brightness(visible in daylight) and how do you know that oily rose was that nebula? if it was so why would your god point out an average nebula in the galaxy and not any of the more amazing ones out there? cause its easy to fit your argument, thats why :-D

    if someones description is general enough you can made anything you want from it. Its not that the koran predicts it, its more your desperation to find things in there to back up your beliefs


    your not going to convince me, as neither did all the believers in the bible or people who thought nostradamus was a prophit

    None of your statements are amazing and i feel you need to read books from a wide range of people not just from one author. Im a big fan of stephen hawking myself. but i make judgement/descisions on his work by cross reference it with other authors therefore getting many different opinions not just of one(which could be/has been see to be incorrect)
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    still not very convincing though, alot of the items mentioned come down to how you interpret it. you can find amazing predictions/coincedences in so many books it you want to find them. 1984, brave new world etc.

    heres a few for you

    Democritus of abdera 460-370 bc mentioned the existance of atoms(from which the greek atomon comes meaning "indivisible") he described everything being made of either space or atoms

    Plato 427-347bc saw a mathematical form and order to the universe

    Then theres the discoverys of Archimedes 287-212bc,


    an intersting one is Hipparchus 170-125bc who worked out the length of a year within 6and a half minutes of what we know today, determine the length of the seasons and the arc that were taken( therefore jagoman's original statement about religion knowing about orbits of earth and sun was known well over 2000years ago well before religious books, sorry)


    Galen of pergamum 130-201ad who had the basics of the working of the heart and lungs together(he noted how blood was pumped from the heart to lungs where it mixed with life(which we know know as oxygen))


    and they are just off the top of my head


    The honey thing was known in even earlier history than 1400years ago as a cure as was the use of willow bark(aspirin) as a cure for pain and numerous other things, some worked, some didn't but all old, those things could go back as far as man. Just because now we know more about them doesn't mean the ancients didn't use them as medicine, back to the willow(aspirin)thats has recently(in history) been discovered to thin blood and reduce clots for people with heart conditions therefore the pre-history man must also have been amazing too.

    you mentioned your god said it was "the cure for all illness" which it isn't so is that statement right? maybe "a cure for some" would have been closer but then doesnt seem so amazing. Also you said your gods description of a bee-hive, thats just an observation and could have been made by any man and the mathematics behind that could have been done pre 1400 years ago

    And the Crab nebula was a bad choice to make a point, because it was known in supernova form about as far back as july 4th 1054 by chinese astronomers and was well watched worldwide for many years from then because of its brightness(visible in daylight) and how do you know that oily rose was that nebula? if it was so why would your god point out an average nebula in the galaxy and not any of the more amazing ones out there? cause its easy to fit your argument, thats why :-D

    if someones description is general enough you can made anything you want from it. Its not that the koran predicts it, its more your desperation to find things in there to back up your beliefs


    your not going to convince me, as neither did all the believers in the bible or people who thought nostradamus was a prophit

    None of your statements are amazing and i feel you need to read books from a wide range of people not just from one author. Im a big fan of stephen hawking myself. but i make judgement/descisions on his work by cross reference it with other authors therefore getting many different opinions not just of one(which could be/has been see to be incorrect)
    Glad you brought this up..i had a feeling that I was being too vague. :-D

    Anyhow, I understand your prespective, but I still can interject: -

    1) The subject of the atom, as discussed by the aforementioned Greek Philosopher is a rather flexible term...I mean, when you come down to thinking about it, the root word simply means an entity far smaller than your being which defines and comprises the human being. This, off course, is as general as the speculation by that "lonely missionary priest who named small animalcules *cell*" . :wink: However, when it comes to the Qurán where an atom is mentioned, it is defined to be smaller than any form of existance. I can prove that because the Qurán brings mention in one of its chapters [Surat Al Alaq] of what has been confirmed to be an embryo and further on, the Qurán brings mention of the "[smallest measure of a deed] An atoms weight that a person does will be brought forth to judge him". This indicates that this "atom's weight" would have to be smaller than the aforementioned fetus...which just came out of being a zygote, meaning nothing more than cells. Thereby, the Qurán recognized the atom.

    2) Plato may have seen order that far back, but it was Adam who was taught of the delicate balance of things and the placement of the "Balance" in the universe that maintains equilibrium throughout. [Qurán]
    Also, Plato philosophically tackled the issue of the mathematical harmony of the Universe, but he took it in the sense of mathematical elegance; and I don't blame him, math back then couldn't prove some of the phenomena...like that spray of "Milk" across the night sky . I'm sure Plato's speculation was derived from there as well. However, astronomical and geographical evidence from the Qurán is more detailed and in depth...to the point that technology back in such a time period could not deduce. For instance...how would an Arab know that Oceans were the underlying dividants of the major oceans? etc.

    3) Archimedes's discovery of bouyancy was a feat of his time, but you can't use that as a prediction...that was not pure speculation for there was a lot of mathematical proving going on with his theory. However refined it became...

    4) I'm not going to tackle the subject of Hipparchus, because if I mention that "The Qurán worked out the calender EXACTLY" I will just be shunned because "God is not a viable source and saying that He existed before the Qurán was revealed would be propostorous"...but, the Qurán's measure of the calender was exact..even down to the fickle unar calender. Heck, even years later, Arab scholars used Algebraic proofs to prove this (I'm not a great mathematician, but I'll research this the best I can if you want evidence!)

    5) Galen's work can not be taken as speculation and prediction. Go to the graveyard...pull out a corpse, and its easy to point out the heart. Surgeons did the same things years later in order to perform their procedures. Not to mention, Galen's work as a physiologist was pivotal to his career, so its not speculation. However...when u have an illiterate man (Muhammed (pbuh)) who knew nothing of the world around him "come up" with how an embryo becomes a Human being in the Qurán, that's something to stand and think about.

    6) Once again...my reasoning for why the Qurán's knowledge predates the "ancients" will get thrown out, but I have scientific evidence to back the rest of my claims up. Honey has been described to be "The Cure of all illnesses" in the Qurán and you say that its not? Well, if not then, perhaps sufficient reaearch must be done to prove this statement wrong. Well...sadly, no one seems to be interested in pursuing such a field of research, however, those of have have provided promising results: -

    a. Honey has been shown to be a proven bactericidal agent against some of the toughest Super-bugs out there. These pathogenic agents include Staphlococcus aureas, Streptococcus (almost all strains), Pseudomonas aeuriginosa, Mycobacterium ulcerans (YES! even Mycobacteria! The worst bastards out there!), Mycobacterium avium and all its subspecies, MTB, virulent strains of E.Coli, Meningococcus etc. You name the bacterium and its been dealt with. What's surprising isn't that the honey was effective..but rather, it was effective at LOW concentrations...anywhere from 0.5% to 30% has shown to be effective on the aforementioned bacteria. That's sounds alot better than taking chances with Mitochondria damaging antibiotics out there that can only be used to treat some of the infections caused by the bacteria bove.

    b. Honey derived from the pollen of any allergy causing flower has been shown to be an effective antiinflammatory treatment for that allergy. It supresses the behaviour of Basophils and creates a sterile, moist, and nutriest rich enviroment for the inflammed region.

    c. Honey has been shown to be a potent antiviral topical treatment for all strains of the Herpes Virus. Concentrations of effectiveness went anywhere from 20% to 43%. In some cases, the symptoms of the disease went into complete remission as opposed to the common place Herpes topical drug Acyclovir. More research has to be done with Viruses though , its a recent interjecture.

    So just give it time and gove the research some funding..and we'll see :- D

    7) Hmm, you would be right about the observation of the bee hives if Arabs living during that time period had calculus to work with...and they didn't. In order to derive the structural efficiency, Limit calcualtions on almost all the possible shape arrangments that a Bee could actually create were done. After taking various integrals and derivatives of the most efficient shapes a bee could muster, The hexagons were found to be the best choice...and this was 1400 yrs later.

    8) Regarding the Crab Nebula, it was my mistake. The nebula of interest is actually the "Cat's eye" nebula. Here's a link. http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Sci...se-nebula.html

    I know that i need to read more books in order to better back my claims, but at this point, what I have will have to make do. And also, I'm not using these "fabricated" accounts to back my religion up..I'm simply, using them to show you that Islam is diferent when it comes to Sciences. Most people presume that if you're religious, you can't possibly make a good scientist, but the thing is, these are opinions formulated by people who have only had a taste of only two religions by which to make that conjecture...PLEASE DON'T DO THAT WITH ISLAM. That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't need to justofy my belief for it is already justifid and I don't need to justofy it to anyone else, in time, absolute truth will reveal all matters of question. There's plenty of evidence out there for the taking...if scholars would take the time to interpret it. There's also plenty of evidence that's been deciphered already, All that's needed is time to corrolate and prove it...isn't that what science is about?
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  33. #32  
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    all of the above still proves nothing to me, the koran is speculative, generalisised and also how come the majority of discoverys are from non muslims? does your god put the ideas into the heads of non believers for a reason?

    The atom questions still not cleared up for me also, the word means "indivisible"and it doesnt get much smaller than that, that was stated inbetween 460-370 bc

    surely discoveries like DNA would come from Islamic scholars and not two no-believers in a pub

    What is the passage in the koran that mentions the all important double helix? could you quote the exact phrase?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    I can prove that because the Qurán brings mention in one of its chapters [Surat Al Alaq] of what has been confirmed to be an embryo and further on, the Qurán brings mention of the "[smallest measure of a deed] An atoms weight that a person does will be brought forth to judge him". This indicates that this "atom's weight" would have to be smaller than the aforementioned fetus...which just came out of being a zygote, meaning nothing more than cells. Thereby, the Qurán recognized the atom.
    So in order to prove that the Qu'ran recognised the atom, It has to recognise the Zygote and that this single cell can be judged[presumably for sin or action]. It makes perfect sense to me.

    I have been told that Islam does not kill pregnant women. For this to be true, and given that Islam is aware of, and can distinguish between, a fertilized and unfertilized egg I pose the following question:

    For the last 1400 years how have the executioners been able to determine the women was pregnant?.

    You MUST understand that we in the west do not punish repeated adultry or see it as a sin unless somebody is hurt, or their partner is underage. Even if the women is NOT sorry and continues to commit adultry we do not punish her for it. We show mercy, we show MORE mercy than ISLAM.

    Christianity is more merciful than Islam. Our god is pleased and rewards us with an excellent standard of living, goood health care, he does not force us to roam the barren deserts forever. And he let's us have parties
    and be happy and smile and we all live in lush green lands.

    I think many of your Imam's are jealous of this wonderful life we[christians] lead and because they cannot enjoy it [because God punishes then for their many bad deed's] - If Christainity is wrong it should be puished by GOD and not a mob. We have an expression which says "Buy now pay later", this we are prepared to do.

    Most of us respect your religion and the right to live the way you want to in your OWN country. We simply ask you afford us the same courtesy.
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  35. #34  
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    Most of us respect your religion and the right to live the way you want to in your OWN country. We simply ask you afford us the same courtesy
    i agree with this. dont confuse my comments of islam with a disrespect of your beliefs but as billco says respect our beliefs also
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    You MUST understand that we in the west do not punish repeated adultry or see it as a sin unless somebody is hurt, or their partner is underage. Even if the women is NOT sorry and continues to commit adultry we do not punish her for it. We show mercy, we show MORE mercy than ISLAM..
    Who says what is a sin and what is not? You? Man? Islam shows no mercy to those who oppose it. It has no respect for other religions for a VERY good reason, they are pointless. Why should Islam show respect for a way of life that goes AGAINST the words of God? Christianity (offence intended) is pathetic, its so open-armed that if the case were that it was wrong (when it is shown to be wrong) there would be the slight chance that the followers could avoid hellfire. Well Islam draws a line, be a muslim or burn in hell (but dont be misunderstood, heaven and hell are made up of many complex levels - google it if you need more info). Its strict, but that is whats needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I think many of your Imam's are jealous of this wonderful life we[christians] lead
    Is that the same for me? I live in the UK, my dad owns 4 houses, 5 shops, a nice car, Im a Games Designer, got a car, so does my brother. Don't be fooled we give lots to charity and employ unexperience people, mainly muslims though, hehe. Anyhow I have a good life, Im not jealous of your 'wonderful life', although everytime I go to the mosque I feel jealous of my friends living in countries with strong a Islamic presence (i.e. Iran, Pakistan). There is such a greater chance of committing a sin here then in Iran, which is why when I'm able to go, I'd most definatly move to a country like Iran if not Iran itself. And if the reason were to kill invading Americans, then so be it.

    I dont strictly follow by my Imam, He rarely speaks english (I dont know arabic), but I still have my book and propaganda thriving television. So to conclude, its not jealousy.

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Most of us respect your religion and the right to live the way you want to in your OWN country. We simply ask you afford us the same courtesy.
    All 'I' will ever do is accept it (for now), respect for it means Im sitting on the fence between Islam and Hellfire. And Im not selfish, so come join us on this side of the line - you dont even have to tell anyone

    Sorry I took long to reply, too busy for net :P with my amazing life style, lol. btw thanks SciGuySam for your comments, but these guys want something obvious and undeniable, to their automatic rejecting standards. And I've given them just that, what did they do - avoid it (ever expanding universe). Anyhow I'll provide more undeniable facts in a new topic *coming very soon - promise*
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  37. #36  
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    Jagoman,

    You are not a muslim, you are just some guy trying to stir the shit between two religions. Grow up, and get a life.
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Jagoman,

    You are not a muslim, you are just some guy trying to stir the shit between two religions. Grow up, and get a life.

    I second that billco :-D
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  39. #38  
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    jagoman wrote
    Islam shows no mercy to those who oppose it. It has no respect for other religions for a VERY good reason, they are pointless. Why should Islam show respect for a way of life that goes AGAINST the words of God?
    ...
    I live in the UK, my dad owns 4 houses, 5 shops, a nice car, Im a Games Designer, got a car, so does my brother.
    ..
    There is such a greater chance of committing a sin here then in Iran, which is why when I'm able to go, I'd most definatly move to a country like Iran if not Iran itself.
    Could you tell me what stop you from going to Iran, now? UK's majority are christians, whom you despise and have contempt. I believe if you express your opinion to the authorities there they will be most happy to send you to where you belong.
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    It has no respect for other religions for a VERY good reason, they are pointless.
    that shows how stupid islam is and primetive. of the 3 religions islam is the most primetive.

    Why should Islam show respect for a way of life that goes AGAINST the words of God? Christianity (offence intended) is pathetic, its so open-armed that if the case were that it was wrong (when it is shown to be wrong) there would be the slight chance that the followers could avoid hellfire.
    christians say the same thing about islam. No miracles have happened there, therefor it isnt true and christianity is the only right.

    Im a Games Designer, got a car, so does my brother. Don't be fooled we give lots to charity and employ unexperience people, mainly muslims though, hehe
    why am i not supriced?

    I'd most definatly move to a country like Iran if not Iran itself.
    call the guys in white coats, you need psykological help

    And Im not selfish, so come join us on this side of the line - you dont even have to tell anyone
    isnt it a sin to not show respect for another human bieng in islam? if notits even more primetive

    realise it jagoman. There is no miracles in that book. its not more holy than my ass. Its either already known knowledge that was forgoten and rediscovered or your way of intepretating it as you please. Case closed for that primetive religion.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    There is an answer for everything except ignorance and that my FRIEND is what you have. The only way for you to get out of such a state of ignorance would be to get knowledge. It's funny how everyone that IS NOT A MUSLIM BECOMES AN EXPERT ON ISLAM. It's like asking a mechanic to fix someone's heart. I don't feel like wasting my energy in useless arguments like these anymore. It doesn't do any good. You obviously are not guided, and there is no way I can do anything to change that. May God help me and you. Not once have you seen me attack christianity. I have remained civil. Regardless of how stupid you act and respond, I know that it's not linked with your religion. Yet, that is what exactly everyone in our country does with Islam. There are so many ways to argue against christianity yet I haven't. So, there is no need for such retarded banter anymore. This is a science forum, not religious. Religious dialogue/debate needs to be left to the scholars of each faith, not ignorant laymen who have no knowledge of anything. Thus, i say we just end this stupid cycle, because it does no good, only harm by raising my blood pressure. Maybe we can talk about that, since that is a SCIENCTIFIC issue.

    Oh and Jagoman, you're welcome and I was glad to be the ONLY one defending YOUR claims.

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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    There is an answer for everything except ignorance and that my FRIEND is what you have. The only way for you to get out of such a state of ignorance would be to get knowledge. It's funny how everyone that IS NOT A MUSLIM BECOMES AN EXPERT ON ISLAM. It's like asking a mechanic to fix someone's heart. I don't feel like wasting my energy in useless arguments like these anymore. It doesn't do any good. You obviously are not guided, and there is no way I can do anything to change that. May God help me and you. Not once have you seen me attack christianity. I have remained civil. Regardless of how stupid you act and respond, I know that it's not linked with your religion. Yet, that is what exactly everyone in our country does with Islam. There are so many ways to argue against christianity yet I haven't. So, there is no need for such retarded banter anymore. This is a science forum, not religious. Religious dialogue/debate needs to be left to the scholars of each faith, not ignorant laymen who have no knowledge of anything. Thus, i say we just end this stupid cycle, because it does no good, only harm by raising my blood pressure. Maybe we can talk about that, since that is a SCIENCTIFIC issue.


    PS- 1+1+1 =/= 1

    can i ask who this is directed at? as you see from above before jagomans statement there was no attack on islam, just a disagreement between science and religion, but to me the views of jagoman are not that of a muslim and are a little extreme for my liking

    As a follower of islam yourself do you agree with jagomans statements?
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  43. #42  
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    The statement above was directed at Billco's comments. If we were discussing a possible vantage point between religion and Science, why did we have to bring in Faith vs Faith policies. Also, I did not take offense at your comments earlier and I did not take them to be an attack on my faith. I just wanted to create a distinction is all.

    However...
    Jagoman,

    You are not a muslim, you are just some guy trying to stir the shit between two religions. Grow up, and get a life.
    I do agree with this, so *Clap Clap* for Billco on that.

    Regarding Jagoman...Bro (@Jagoman), if you're gonna present a topic for discussion, please come prepared to defend it ADEQUETLY or there is no point in bringing up the conversation. Also, such a sensitive issue needs to be handled delicatly so that it remains a scientific analysis...not an inquisition.

    Who says what is a sin and what is not? You? Man? Islam shows no mercy to those who oppose it. It has no respect for other religions for a VERY good reason, they are pointless. Why should Islam show respect for a way of life that goes AGAINST the words of God? Christianity (offence intended) is pathetic, its so open-armed that if the case were that it was wrong (when it is shown to be wrong) there would be the slight chance that the followers could avoid hellfire. Well Islam draws a line, be a muslim or burn in hell (but dont be misunderstood, heaven and hell are made up of many complex levels - google it if you need more info). Its strict, but that is whats needed.
    Dude...make sure to read up on Islamic history before writing this. Didn't we tolerate ALL religious groups in our Olde days Islamic Theocracies? Isn't tolerane and respect of other faithes mandated upon us by the Prophet? Isn't respecting the other faith a key principle in gaining future followers? You just contradicited every scholar's methodology of preaching by writing that first sentence alone. YOU DON'T DISCUSS MATTERS OF ISLAMIC LAW UNTIL YOU ESTABLISH FAITH! How are people suppose to follow you if you start out conversation by condeming them? Also, what good is there in following laws if you don't believe in them to begin with! That's why Billco attacked us immediatly. Muslims now-a-days have no shread of respect for others and condemn everyone the minute they find out they're non-believers. Do you know why Islam was so sucessful when people first learned about it? BECAUSE IT PREACHED TOLERANCE! TOLERANCE DAMMIT! UNDERSTAND OTHER PEOPLES BEFORE YOU CRITICIZE THEM! I can go on and on about this, but I won't because this is the wrong forum topic...if you guys would like I don't mind.
    s that the same for me? I live in the UK, my dad owns 4 houses, 5 shops, a nice car, Im a Games Designer, got a car, so does my brother. Don't be fooled we give lots to charity and employ unexperience people, mainly muslims though, hehe. Anyhow I have a good life, Im not jealous of your 'wonderful life', although everytime I go to the mosque I feel jealous of my friends living in countries with strong a Islamic presence (i.e. Iran, Pakistan). There is such a greater chance of committing a sin here then in Iran, which is why when I'm able to go, I'd most definatly move to a country like Iran if not Iran itself. And if the reason were to kill invading Americans, then so be it.

    I dont strictly follow by my Imam, He rarely speaks english (I dont know arabic), but I still have my book Smile and propaganda thriving television. So to conclude, its not jealousy.
    eh? why?!?!?!

    Also, Billco, Imams are not what they used to be...full fledged islamic scholars. Now, they're just anyone who can recite some chapters from the Qurán and can be payed off by local political groups. An imam has become more of a politician than a reverand minister of God. That's why you see footage of them preaching hate and calling for Jihad...which by the way, must be conveened upon by a SCHOLAR (20+ yrs of islamic theological experience) and the islamic community as a WHOLE.

    Also, the thing is...these peope overseas "hating" on the christians in the west aren;t jealous...they're angry at the US. Why? Well...the hypocracy gets to a point where eventually, people just snap. For decades, the US has preached to be the "defender of democracy and freedom" across the world and, for decades, they have ignored the Arabs' plea regarding Israel and the present day conflict...yet, the US always turns the blind eye. So, they're fed up and realize thet they're on their own. That's why the hate the US. Realize something...we don't hate your freedom...we're human...we hate the US's foreign policy and the fact that they ignore OUR outcry for freedom...unless we got oil. Also, our freedom differs greatly from what the west considers to be freedom...culural issues must be examined before one creates chaos in the binding religious lines. The media can do manipulate people so effectively...no?

    So, I guess I don;t agree with Jagoman's tactics for that manner.

    JAgoman, please don't wrong your faith (if you are muslim) like so many lunatics already have...we don't need anymore of that. What we need are objectiove, educated scholars to represent us, so please be mindful of the reprecautions of your statements.


    Seriously guys, if this is gonna be a Muslim vs Christian vs Athiest Forum, we should end it now. More harm done than good.
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    SciGuySam, thanks for a better view of islam for once, jagomans statements are the reason that alot of westerners link islam with terrorism and intolerance, i know not all muslims are like this but too many are shouting this kind of statement, and not just the ones picked up by the media but all over the internet on islamic sites. sadly views like jagomans are the kind of comment the west are seeing and not the peaceful islamic ones, that ive never seen in large numbers

    the more peaceful and tolerent(from what i understand are thew followers of TRUE islam arn't doing enough to squash these people) neither are some of the islamic leaders in certain countries, some religious leader in lebanon was inciting hate of the americans only yesterday in a big flag waving hate rally think there were 40,000 people and he was spitting hate about hezbollah having 25,000 rockets now , these kinda things dont do much for the religion in the west and now even the french are being threatened by terrorists and they were probably one of the most anti-war nations in europe, what is the reason for the hate against them when they have been more positive about islam?

    Ok maybe these people have a misguided view of true islam but this is what is being seen worldwide(not just from media) and ofcourse its going to affect peoples views

    as i said thanks for a more peaceful view, but it seems more radical views are drowning out the peaceful ones a hundred fold
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    Hmmm odd that, Sciguysam, appears just after Jagoman dissappears, such a similar style of grammer... Some mught think you are jagoman,
    I might be some... Jumps straigh into an argument like he never left.

    You can't fool all of the forum all of the time!

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    @CaptainCaveman: Thank you, and you're absolutly right. Its amazing how we have retarded morons as our representatives. However insignificant they are, they are still in power and hold the right to threaten our lives should we stand. The problem is, there is no unity to overthrow them. Unless we can fix our communities faults, we can hope to achieve nothing in the eyes of the world.

    @Billco: eh? You serious? Dear God help me if its true
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    It's funny how everyone that IS NOT A MUSLIM BECOMES AN EXPERT ON ISLAM.
    Yeah!, I've noticed the very same thing! - A geologist friend of mine is NOT a chunk of bassalt.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    It's funny how everyone that IS NOT A MUSLIM BECOMES AN EXPERT ON ISLAM.
    Yeah!, I've noticed the very same thing! - A geologist friend of mine is NOT a chunk of bassalt.

    yeah i thought the same thing you dont have to be a muslim to comment about it, On this forum not everybodys a professional physicist, biologist, psychologist or cosmologist etc therefore no-one would be able to comment on any subject if that was the case :-D
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    In fact it probably helps if you are not a muslim, that way at least you can have a view that is not dictated by an Imam. I think that we should bow out of this thread and leave it to anybody who is left-handed, these are the people who have been most persecuted by muslims and islam.
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    guys, commenting and actually being taken as an authority when you have no background are two seperate things! Everyone ie entitled to commenting about certain aspects...that's how we formulate opinions. However, the media takes on the LEAST qualified people and asks them for their perspective...a perspective, which might I add, is taken as a representation for everyone's views. That just gives ANYHTING a really bad rep.

    For instance, if I wanted to find out about a certain parasite and its functions, would I ask a geologist for his opinion....him being the "authority" on parasites? No, I would ask a parasitologist because he's the AUTHORITY on parasites. Same thing with Islam, if the world wants to understand the faith, they should ask a schoalr of the faith...not some douchebag who's lived in the middle east for maybe 2 months tops and claims he is the expert. Also, some of these "experts" are nothing more than biased individuals that critics use as a means to prove a point...that's wrong.

    If I wanted the opinion of a non-muslim on an islamic experience, then that would be fine. However, when it comes to gaining absolute knowledge about the faith, a MUSLIM SCHOLAR is most appropriate. :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    In fact it probably helps if you are not a muslim, that way at least you can have a view that is not dictated by an Imam. I think that we should bow out of this thread and leave it to anybody who is left-handed, these are the people who have been most persecuted by muslims and islam.
    Please don't comment about Shariah law if you don't know the inner workings of it. You can't just take false accounts of the worst possible trials to back your claims. Also, most of the cases of islamic persecution by muslims occured when shariah was NOT practiced correctly. I.e. the turks, mongols, and current day "islamic theocracies". These are the WORST possible representations of islamic law. If you wwish to argue shariah, study the age of the four caliphates with an in-depth perspective and look at how they practiced Shariah law.

    Also, I'm not saying that Shariah is error-prone, as we are only human. I'm sure there were innoncent muslims wandering around back then with one hand because some ruler decided to abuse his power and not practice shariah properly or because there was tampering with the evidence. However, does that not happen with all Legal systems?
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    Of 5 arabic speaking people I have known personally, 4 of them were muslim, their actions leave me in no doubt I would not wish to associate with them personally. The 5th was an Iraqi refugee from Saddam's era who no longer practices his islamic faith. The treatment of his family at the hand's of Mr Hussain's thugs led him to the opinion that there is no God.

    Of 2 Jewish families I have known, I would have no qualms of inviting any of them into my house.

    Of about 70 Americans I have met, not one has offended me.

    I am entitled to opinions based upon my own personal experiences.

    My reference to left-handed people was merely that left-handedness is considered by the Qu'ran to be a quality of Satan. approximately 13% of the world's population are naturally left-handed. Are they all Satans?
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    guys, commenting and actually being taken as an authority when you have no background are two seperate things! Everyone ie entitled to commenting about certain aspects...that's how we formulate opinions. However, the media takes on the LEAST qualified people and asks them for their perspective...a perspective, which might I add, is taken as a representation for everyone's views. That just gives ANYHTING a really bad rep.

    For instance, if I wanted to find out about a certain parasite and its functions, would I ask a geologist for his opinion....him being the "authority" on parasites? No, I would ask a parasitologist because he's the AUTHORITY on parasites. Same thing with Islam, if the world wants to understand the faith, they should ask a schoalr of the faith...not some douchebag who's lived in the middle east for maybe 2 months tops and claims he is the expert. Also, some of these "experts" are nothing more than biased individuals that critics use as a means to prove a point...that's wrong.

    If I wanted the opinion of a non-muslim on an islamic experience, then that would be fine. However, when it comes to gaining absolute knowledge about the faith, a MUSLIM SCHOLAR is most appropriate. :P
    sciguysam, i dont think anyone here is doing anything more than their personal view on any given subject, be that islam, quantum physics or psychology, thats all anyone can do. Even scolars or "experts" in any given field dont agree on everything. for example with your example from a parasitlogist, there could be times when his/her comments are not in agreement with his peers and thats with a more exact subject

    In my personal opinion when it comes too religion, which is theology(if you believe that kind of thing) and no-one can be seen as an expert on, to be honest "an unknown" subject. with what i mean the idea of god/no god has NO EXPERTS anywhere in the world, its all just an opinion or a point of view

    When it comes to a particular religion then peoples views are based on what they see/hear around them, and not everyone is taken in fully by religious propaganda in the media and some anti-islamic or anti-whatever religion could be down to someones own personal experiences in "real life" and without knowing their backgrounds you cannot make an assumption that their views are based on the mass media for their dislike/disagreement of whatever religion or political view point they disagree with

    do not take these comments as hate filled or aggressive, texts a pain in the butt to put emotions across in but hate it aint
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Of 5 arabic speaking people I have known personally, 4 of them were muslim, their actions leave me in no doubt I would not wish to associate with them personally. The 5th was an Iraqi refugee from Saddam's era who no longer practices his islamic faith. The treatment of his family at the hand's of Mr Hussain's thugs led him to the opinion that there is no God.

    Of 2 Jewish families I have known, I would have no qualms of inviting any of them into my house.

    Of about 70 Americans I have met, not one has offended me.

    I am entitled to opinions based upon my own personal experiences.

    My reference to left-handed people was merely that left-handedness is considered by the Qu'ran to be a quality of Satan. approximately 13% of the world's population are naturally left-handed. Are they all Satans?
    Alright, its fine if you formulate an opinion based on your own personal experiences, but that still makes you no expert or figure of authority on that subject. You are a vantage point for people if they ask about your persepective, but you are still not an authority or expert on the matters of those respective faiths, unless you are and I made an error. For that I apologize.

    I'm sorry for misunderstanding your comment, but you've also misunderstood the Quran's reference. Its not left-handedness that's considered such a quality, but its to denote the path. One path (to the right) leads to salvation, while another (the left) leads to doom. This does not mean that left-handed folk are doomed just because of their orientation. So, with reference to Satan, he has chosen the path to the left...taht of damnation, and so have his followers. So, no, the Quran does not condemn left-handed people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    guys, commenting and actually being taken as an authority when you have no background are two seperate things! Everyone ie entitled to commenting about certain aspects...that's how we formulate opinions. However, the media takes on the LEAST qualified people and asks them for their perspective...a perspective, which might I add, is taken as a representation for everyone's views. That just gives ANYHTING a really bad rep.

    For instance, if I wanted to find out about a certain parasite and its functions, would I ask a geologist for his opinion....him being the "authority" on parasites? No, I would ask a parasitologist because he's the AUTHORITY on parasites. Same thing with Islam, if the world wants to understand the faith, they should ask a schoalr of the faith...not some douchebag who's lived in the middle east for maybe 2 months tops and claims he is the expert. Also, some of these "experts" are nothing more than biased individuals that critics use as a means to prove a point...that's wrong.

    If I wanted the opinion of a non-muslim on an islamic experience, then that would be fine. However, when it comes to gaining absolute knowledge about the faith, a MUSLIM SCHOLAR is most appropriate. :P
    sciguysam, i dont think anyone here is doing anything more than their personal view on any given subject, be that islam, quantum physics or psychology, thats all anyone can do. Even scolars or "experts" in any given field dont agree on everything. for example with your example from a parasitlogist, there could be times when his/her comments are not in agreement with his peers and thats with a more exact subject

    In my personal opinion when it comes too religion, which is theology(if you believe that kind of thing) and no-one can be seen as an expert on, to be honest "an unknown" subject. with what i mean the idea of god/no god has NO EXPERTS anywhere in the world, its all just an opinion or a point of view

    When it comes to a particular religion then peoples views are based on what they see/hear around them, and not everyone is taken in fully by religious propaganda in the media and some anti-islamic or anti-whatever religion could be down to someones own personal experiences in "real life" and without knowing their backgrounds you cannot make an assumption that their views are based on the mass media for their dislike/disagreement of whatever religion or political view point they disagree with

    do not take these comments as hate filled or aggressive, texts a pain in the butt to put emotions across in but hate it aint
    I know! I don't mind people telling me their opinions! It great to hear another side of the story...what bugs me is when these opinions are taken to be "the truth of the matter" for that subject. Also, when I mean sumone is an expert on a faith, I don't mean he is an expert on God. I mean, he is an expert on the way our faith is practiced and how we relate it to others. An Islamic scholar tudies the Quran, the sayings of the prophet, and the actions of the prophet. This, coupled with extensive knowledge on ISlamic history allow he to become an authority on our religion. A scholar, however, can not provide you with the absolute truth of God...we are humans after all. All he can tell you is how and why God's message was conveyed to us.

    And I agree with your reference to the parasitologist, after all, there were many isalmic scholars who had different vantage points...the only reason their views were credible was because they had the technical know-how of the religion. That's why they're experts on that field! Their opinion, I would trust when it comes to that aspect. But, when i need the first hand account of sumone's perspective, then I may no necessarily see an expert because I want to gauge a specific person's experience. See what I mean?

    Also, I don't atke offense to anything! I know..its really hard to convey emotion in text :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Of 5 arabic speaking people I have known personally, 4 of them were muslim, their actions leave me in no doubt I would not wish to associate with them personally. The 5th was an Iraqi refugee from Saddam's era who no longer practices his islamic faith. The treatment of his family at the hand's of Mr Hussain's thugs led him to the opinion that there is no God.

    Of 2 Jewish families I have known, I would have no qualms of inviting any of them into my house.

    Of about 70 Americans I have met, not one has offended me.

    I am entitled to opinions based upon my own personal experiences.

    My reference to left-handed people was merely that left-handedness is considered by the Qu'ran to be a quality of Satan. approximately 13% of the world's population are naturally left-handed. Are they all Satans?
    Alright, its fine if you formulate an opinion based on your own personal experiences, but that still makes you no expert or figure of authority on that subject. You are a vantage point for people if they ask about your persepective, but you are still not an authority or expert on the matters of those respective faiths, unless you are and I made an error. For that I apologize.

    I'm sorry for misunderstanding your comment, but you've also misunderstood the Quran's reference. Its not left-handedness that's considered such a quality, but its to denote the path. One path (to the right) leads to salvation, while another (the left) leads to doom. This does not mean that left-handed folk are doomed just because of their orientation. So, with reference to Satan, he has chosen the path to the left...taht of damnation, and so have his followers. So, no, the Quran does not condemn left-handed people.

    "Two roads diverged in a Wood..."


    If I were invited to the house of an islamic family and offered a meal which I ate only with my left hand whilst resting my right hand by my side, how would I be received?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by SciGuySam
    guys, commenting and actually being taken as an authority when you have no background are two seperate things! Everyone ie entitled to commenting about certain aspects...that's how we formulate opinions. However, the media takes on the LEAST qualified people and asks them for their perspective...a perspective, which might I add, is taken as a representation for everyone's views. That just gives ANYHTING a really bad rep.

    For instance, if I wanted to find out about a certain parasite and its functions, would I ask a geologist for his opinion....him being the "authority" on parasites? No, I would ask a parasitologist because he's the AUTHORITY on parasites. Same thing with Islam, if the world wants to understand the faith, they should ask a schoalr of the faith...not some douchebag who's lived in the middle east for maybe 2 months tops and claims he is the expert. Also, some of these "experts" are nothing more than biased individuals that critics use as a means to prove a point...that's wrong.

    If I wanted the opinion of a non-muslim on an islamic experience, then that would be fine. However, when it comes to gaining absolute knowledge about the faith, a MUSLIM SCHOLAR is most appropriate. :P
    sciguysam, i dont think anyone here is doing anything more than their personal view on any given subject, be that islam, quantum physics or psychology, thats all anyone can do. Even scolars or "experts" in any given field dont agree on everything. for example with your example from a parasitlogist, there could be times when his/her comments are not in agreement with his peers and thats with a more exact subject

    In my personal opinion when it comes too religion, which is theology(if you believe that kind of thing) and no-one can be seen as an expert on, to be honest "an unknown" subject. with what i mean the idea of god/no god has NO EXPERTS anywhere in the world, its all just an opinion or a point of view

    When it comes to a particular religion then peoples views are based on what they see/hear around them, and not everyone is taken in fully by religious propaganda in the media and some anti-islamic or anti-whatever religion could be down to someones own personal experiences in "real life" and without knowing their backgrounds you cannot make an assumption that their views are based on the mass media for their dislike/disagreement of whatever religion or political view point they disagree with

    do not take these comments as hate filled or aggressive, texts a pain in the butt to put emotions across in but hate it aint
    I know! I don't mind people telling me their opinions! It great to hear another side of the story...what bugs me is when these opinions are taken to be "the truth of the matter" for that subject. Also, when I mean sumone is an expert on a faith, I don't mean he is an expert on God. I mean, he is an expert on the way our faith is practiced and how we relate it to others. An Islamic scholar tudies the Quran, the sayings of the prophet, and the actions of the prophet. This, coupled with extensive knowledge on ISlamic history allow he to become an authority on our religion. A scholar, however, can not provide you with the absolute truth of God...we are humans after all. All he can tell you is how and why God's message was conveyed to us.

    And I agree with your reference to the parasitologist, after all, there were many isalmic scholars who had different vantage points...the only reason their views were credible was because they had the technical know-how of the religion. That's why they're experts on that field! Their opinion, I would trust when it comes to that aspect. But, when i need the first hand account of sumone's perspective, then I may no necessarily see an expert because I want to gauge a specific person's experience. See what I mean?

    Also, I don't atke offense to anything! I know..its really hard to convey emotion in text :P

    thats part of my point though, say your interpritation of the koran is say from your imam and say mine was from another follower weve both then heard two potentially different accounts from a "middle man" and neither could be 100% right. as ive seen many many muslims confused in the meaning of text


    the point im making is who decides what interpretation is the correct one and this thread was started by videos of the koran(with quotation from it) and jagoman saw this as divine and i intepreted the same text as very generalised and for example with the orbits

    "It is he who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, they swim along each in an orbit" (from koran)

    to me this just describes the cycle of the sun and moon in a day/night cycle as the earth revolves, this would have been seen this way by any man from the start of humankind, thats my interpretation

    How is my interpretation any less valid just because i dont believe the text? and this is the point im making, you dont have to be a believer to interpret the text, and when that was what jagoman gave us, how it it wrong for us to have our our opinion on this text?

    "and the sun runs to its resting place. that is the decree of the almighty"(from koran)

    My interpretation as a none believer "the sun sets"


    "by the sky full of paths and orbits"(from koran)

    Anyone who looks upto the sky will see stars and planets moving across the sky in a certain arc, and they reappear the next night and form an arc again therefore an easy assumption would to think of them going round in a loop or "orbit"

    As i said, thats my interpretation of those parts of the koran that jagoman point out to us and any man from all those years ago could have came to the same conclusion if they looked at the sky on a regular basis

    Thats the reason i personally make comments
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    When I read an english translation of the Qu'ran I remember it mentioned God made the Sun, moon and Stars. It did not mention Galaxies, nebulae,planets, or the myriad other cosmic objects.

    I concluded that an all knowing God would have classified the sun and stars as the same thing. Because 'God' does not mention the planets seperately it must mean either they do not exist, or that they are stars.

    If the Qu'ran had said "And God made uncountable stars, and gave one to the Earth to keep it warm' or something along those lines I would become a muslim tomorrow.

    Incidentally the bible too, is similar except it mentions that god made two lights one to rule the day and one to rule the nights. The moon is not a light it is a lump of rock.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    When I read an english translation of the Qu'ran I remember it mentioned God made the Sun, moon and Stars. It did not mention Galaxies, nebulae,planets, or the myriad other cosmic objects.

    I concluded that an all knowing God would have classified the sun and stars as the same thing. Because 'God' does not mention the planets seperately it must mean either they do not exist, or that they are stars.

    If the Qu'ran had said "And God made uncountable stars, and gave one to the Earth to keep it warm' or something along those lines I would become a muslim tomorrow.

    Incidentally the bible too, is similar except it mentions that god made to lights one to rule the day and one two rule the nights. The moon is not a light it is a lump of rock.

    would you say my interpretations of text off that video sound about right, or would you interpret them another way?
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    My interpretation is that the Qu'ran indicates that both the sun and moon orbit the earth.

    The sun does not 'rest' in any place. The Qu'ran does not say 'and god spun the earrth to give night and day' - if it did we'd all be muslims.

    I cannot say there is NO god, I can only say I do not believe the Qu'ran IS the word of God. If I am wrong, I will be punished when I die.

    I have just watched the video again. I do not believe the video accurately portrays what is written in the Holy Qu'ran. If the Qu'ran is the word of God, it does not need a video to explain it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    My interpretation is that the Qu'ran indicates that both the sun and moon orbit the earth.

    The sun does not 'rest' in any place. The Qu'ran does not say 'and god spun the earrth to give night and day' - if it did we'd all be muslims.

    I cannot say there is NO god, I can only say I do not believe the Qu'ran IS the word of God. If I am wrong, I will be punished when I die.

    There is an argument that you wont be punished when you die if god is all forgiving, theres also the argument that god gave you a brain to wonder with, so its not your fault if you use what was given


    but from those texts from the koran, From an ancient mind, the sun would be seen to go to its resting place as far as they were concerned, eg they saw it going over the mountains or whatever and then its gone only to re-appear the next day. and in their minds(the minds of someone writing from observations 1400years ago) it would seem to be the case
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    I don't think the brain has evolved one iota in the last 1,400yrs and probably very little in the last 14,000. I see many peoples throughout the world who live in conditions that have changed little in 1500 years. Yet when given the opportunity they can all be as intelligent as the rest of us.
    There are tribes found only in the last few hundred years who lived as people did in the stone age [eg Aborginals in australasia, hawains etc] yet they too are fully part of modern society. The argument that people were somehow simple in those days, just does not gel with me. Think about the ancient greeks and their maths.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I don't think the brain has evolved one iota in the last 1,400yrs and probably very little in the last 14,000. I see many peoples throughout the world who live in conditions that have changed little in 1500 years. Yet when given the opportunity they can all be as intelligent as the rest of us.
    There are tribes found only in the last few hundred years who lived as people did in the stone age [eg Aborginals in australasia, hawains etc] yet they too are fully part of modern society. The argument that people were somehow simple in those days, just does not gel with me. Think about the ancient greeks and their maths.
    i wasn't saying they were less intelligent, i meant in a mind set without the knowledge we take for granted now. as in the people who wrote the koran and bible would have seen what we see now but interpreted it differently because they wouldn't have had the years of knowledge that is at our feet now because of all the great scientists that have existed in the 1400 years since the writing

    I Believe some of the greeks before the year zero were just as smart, its the old "standing on the shoulders of giants" that gives us a better perspective on many subjects

    all my favourite scientist were pre 1900 back to Anaximander 611-547bc with a few exeptions in the 20th century einstein, hawking, and tim berners-lee(we wouldn't be neccisarely speaking without him, and a english man to boot )to name but a few
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  64. #63  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I don't think the brain has evolved one iota in the last 1,400yrs and probably very little in the last 14,000. I see many peoples throughout the world who live in conditions that have changed little in 1500 years. Yet when given the opportunity they can all be as intelligent as the rest of us.
    There are tribes found only in the last few hundred years who lived as people did in the stone age [eg Aborginals in australasia, hawains etc] yet they too are fully part of modern society. The argument that people were somehow simple in those days, just does not gel with me. Think about the ancient greeks and their maths.
    i wasn't saying they were less intelligent, i meant in a mind set without the knowledge we take for granted now. as in the people who wrote the koran and bible would have seen what we see now but interpreted it differently because they wouldn't have had the years of knowledge that is at our feet now because of all the great scientists that have existed in the 1400 years since the writing

    I Believe some of the greeks before the year zero were just as smart, its the old "standing on the shoulders of giants" that gives us a better perspective on many subjects

    all my favourite scientist were pre 1900 back to Anaximander 611-547bc with a few exeptions in the 20th century einstein, hawking, and tim berners-lee(we wouldn't be neccisarely speaking without him, and a english man to boot )to name but a few
    I'm sure I remember some Greek guy about 2500 years ago proposed the planets went round the sun.... Long since forgotton who it was though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I don't think the brain has evolved one iota in the last 1,400yrs and probably very little in the last 14,000. I see many peoples throughout the world who live in conditions that have changed little in 1500 years. Yet when given the opportunity they can all be as intelligent as the rest of us.
    There are tribes found only in the last few hundred years who lived as people did in the stone age [eg Aborginals in australasia, hawains etc] yet they too are fully part of modern society. The argument that people were somehow simple in those days, just does not gel with me. Think about the ancient greeks and their maths.
    i wasn't saying they were less intelligent, i meant in a mind set without the knowledge we take for granted now. as in the people who wrote the koran and bible would have seen what we see now but interpreted it differently because they wouldn't have had the years of knowledge that is at our feet now because of all the great scientists that have existed in the 1400 years since the writing

    I Believe some of the greeks before the year zero were just as smart, its the old "standing on the shoulders of giants" that gives us a better perspective on many subjects

    all my favourite scientist were pre 1900 back to Anaximander 611-547bc with a few exeptions in the 20th century einstein, hawking, and tim berners-lee(we wouldn't be neccisarely speaking without him, and a english man to boot )to name but a few
    I'm sure I remember some Greek guy about 2500 years ago proposed the planets went round the sun.... Long since forgotton who it was though!

    yeah i cant remember either, anaximader was the dude who was first noted as saying the earth was round and suspended in free space, and not on pillars(or turtles backs etc) as others had thought and thats was before 547bc. to me that would have been amazing in 547ad, but bc's even more impressive. Thats a big step to imagine it going from resting on something solid to suspended by nothing with( obviously wrongly)stars and sun revolving round it, not a bad start
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    http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/l...opernican.html

    go down till you find:

    Been There, Done That: Aristarchus of Samos
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/copernican.html

    go down till you find:

    Been There, Done That: Aristarchus of Samos

    thats the guy not an easy name to remember :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/copernican.html

    go down till you find:

    Been There, Done That: Aristarchus of Samos

    thats the guy not an easy name to remember :wink:
    Yeah, they laughed at him, and now the bastards are laughing at me! :wink:
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/retrograde/copernican.html

    go down till you find:

    Been There, Done That: Aristarchus of Samos

    thats the guy not an easy name to remember :wink:
    Yeah, they laughed at him, and now the bastards are laughing at me! :wink:

    i love the history of science, just as much as science itself. sometimes you can see where they went wrong, sometimes you cant.
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    If I were invited to the house of an Islamic family and offered a meal which I ate only with my left hand whilst resting my right hand by my side, how would I be received?
    I don’t think you would be shunned or called a devilish abomination. After all, you were raised to eat with your left since you were left handed. Also, all muslims who are left-handed eat with their right by default.

    @Captain Caveman’s comment #1: First of all, your interpretation and the interpretation of your muslim friend would off course not be 100% reliable. That is, once again, because you are not scholars of the religion and you do not FULLY understand the eloquence of the Arabic language to effectively translate the Quran. That’s what I find difficult to explain to people. Arabic is a very difficult language to learn and fully comprehend. That’s why when people say “Why is it so hard for you muslims to accept the fact that the Quran could’ve been written by a man”, we completely deny it. Not because we’re paranoid, but because most of us know the truth behind the language of the Quran. Arabic’s eloquence can not be understood unless you know the language…even superficially. Its not a matter of dialect or regional influence, as in the case of many languages, it’s the language itself that’s “talkative”…for lack of a better word (See…I can’t even find a better word to represent it in English *cries* ). To illustrate my point, throughout the years, hundreds of non-muslim poets (experts, by default, on Arabic) were gathered to attempt and mimic the Quran…none of them were able to…I seriously mean it…they could not mimic the style one bit. The difficulty in the meters of the Quran and the way it was written could not be comprehended by any of them. I have no doubt that the same would happen if they attempted this today. Also, the DEPTH that the passages in the Quran are written in is astounding in Arabic. It has a by far lesser effect when translated to English, which is why I understand the point you are trying t make. I know it’s kind of hard to understand this point, but it’s the only way I can make it. You really do HAVE to understand the inner-working of Arabic to understand what I’m saying. Please forgive me. :?

    @Billco’s comment #2: What translation were you reading?!?! There are various mentions to the “celestial heavens” in the Quran. Anywhere from mention of the “Pillars in the sky” [eagle nebula] to the Cat’s eye reference I made earlier. Also, God mentions that he placed “the Balance” onto the heavens which governs all matters of gravity and stellar motion is space. Also, references to the creation of stars and their relationship to nebulae is mentioned. Also, keep in mind the eloquence factor! :wink:
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    As i said before this thread was started by jagoman saying look at this video its "really amazing", i saw the video, heard and read the text and gave my honest opinion on that, i also saw the videos on:-

    seas and miracles of koran
    miracles of the creation of the universe
    embriology
    word repetition
    amazing animal signs of allah
    the wrapping of muscles over the bone and the koran
    expansion of the universe and the koran

    And "in english translation" could all be explained by anyone with an interest in science and in some cases under 14years old

    Now this leads me(after your explanation) that all non arabic reading muslims must be getting the wrong answers from their non arabic koran's

    I know for a fact that a large number of muslims cannot speak arabic and their interpretations come from their imams and if their imams can get the world across to their non arabic speaking followers, then why couldnt the translaters of the koran do the same?

    Dont take it the wrong way but whatever explanation i gave, there would always be an obstacle in my way for the reason i cant see it

    If i knew arabic, and came to the same conclusion there would always be another excuse as to why i cant see the true meaning

    Maybe my explanations are the correct ones
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    We cannot prove that God does not exist. You cannot prove he does exist. Clearly we cannot both be correct. If you wish us to believe the Qu'ran then our answer will be, "There are many religious book's why is your one correct and the others false". You will say "it is the word of God".

    For any Arab to become a non-muslin and try to argue against the existence of God would probably generate hate against him[by some devout muslims] to the point where his life may be threatened. Any prominant figure in the west who attempts to question[or even comment] on Islam always receives this fate.

    Should you decide to question Christianity, although we may not like it, we do not all run out into the street shouting death chants. I know that this is only by a small minority of muslims, but that is the view we see. If islam wishes us to believe it is peaceful then that is the face it must show to us, repeatedly. It must also convince it's extremist's that they are wrong.

    It is a fact that as peoples become more civilised they tend to turn towards science and away from God. Our perception of countries where islamic law reigns supreme is that they are violent because those are the images we see. We have seen many times foreign tourists and workers in Islamic countries, kidnapped, butchered, killed, with videos of these events then posted to the west. This is barbarism, there is no other word for it. If Islam wishes to be seen as merciful, then it must behave that way and be seen to behave that way.

    I accept that 500 years ago europe was as barbaric as parts of the Middle East is now. Stamp out the extremists in Islam, keep your faith, and take a responsible position in the world community.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    As i said before this thread was started by jagoman saying look at this video its "really amazing", i saw the video, heard and read the text and gave my honest opinion on that, i also saw the videos on:-

    seas and miracles of koran
    miracles of the creation of the universe
    embriology
    word repetition
    amazing animal signs of allah
    the wrapping of muscles over the bone and the koran
    expansion of the universe and the koran

    And "in english translation" could all be explained by anyone with an interest in science and in some cases under 14years old

    Now this leads me(after your explanation) that all non arabic reading muslims must be getting the wrong answers from their non arabic koran's

    I know for a fact that a large number of muslims cannot speak arabic and their interpretations come from their imams and if their imams can get the world across to their non arabic speaking followers, then why couldnt the translaters of the koran do the same?

    Dont take it the wrong way but whatever explanation i gave, there would always be an obstacle in my way for the reason i cant see it

    If i knew arabic, and came to the same conclusion there would always be another excuse as to why i cant see the true meaning

    Maybe my explanations are the correct ones
    I agree with what you stated about non-arab muslims. It is true that they may be at a certain disadvantage, but that's why they always seek out the true meaning of the Quran on their own. Trust me, none of them take the translation that they have for granted and just sit there, expecting it all to turn out alright. No! Some of the most devout muslims I know are in fact, western converts. They're so enthusiastic about their religion that they, not only seek the true meaning of the Quran, but also seek to LEARN arabic as well. But hey. that's the case for every convert, no? Also, don't forget that at there are always scholars for those who wish to learn.

    Regarding the Imams, followers always seem to gravitate towards Imams who share the same background, both culturally and ethnically. This makes it easier to explain matters and translate more effectively. I'm not saying that Islams segregates its followers, but a follower seeking the truth of the matter will want to gain it in the most accesible way possible. Its hard for me to explain, please endure with me :? .

    Also, I understand the difficulty in reasoning...I still can't seem to get my point across. I hope I'm not portraying the wrong picture of Islam to you and that I am not decieving you. I mean for the best :P
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    We cannot prove that God does not exist. You cannot prove he does exist. Clearly we cannot both be correct. If you wish us to believe the Qu'ran then our answer will be, "There are many religious book's why is your one correct and the others false". You will say "it is the word of God".

    For any Arab to become a non-muslin and try to argue against the existence of God would probably generate hate against him[by some devout muslims] to the point where his life may be threatened. Any prominant figure in the west who attempts to question[or even comment] on Islam always receives this fate.

    Should you decide to question Christianity, although we may not like it, we do not all run out into the street shouting death chants. I know that this is only by a small minority of muslims, but that is the view we see. If islam wishes us to believe it is peaceful then that is the face it must show to us, repeatedly. It must also convince it's extremist's that they are wrong.

    It is a fact that as peoples become more civilised they tend to turn towards science and away from God. Our perception of countries where islamic law reigns supreme is that they are violent because those are the images we see. We have seen many times foreign tourists and workers in Islamic countries, kidnapped, butchered, killed, with videos of these events then posted to the west. This is barbarism, there is no other word for it. If Islam wishes to be seen as merciful, then it must behave that way and be seen to behave that way.

    I accept that 500 years ago europe was as barbaric as parts of the Middle East is now. Stamp out the extremists in Islam, keep your faith, and take a responsible position in the world community.
    Don't you think the Islamic community is aware of that? What do you think we've been trying to do? Do you honestly believe that we sit by and watch as our fellow believers deface the name of Islam and dishonor its practices? If you do, and you trust your media more than your common sense, then I feel sorry for you. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just pointing out something.

    I have already established that most of the problems we see in now-a-day Islam are not caused by the religion, but rather by the cultural of the immensily diverse peoples. The problem is getting all of these communities to distinguish between what Islam is and what their cultural perspectrive of Islam is. This is a problem that the arab world will continue to face unless we find Unity with each other. However, everythime the Arabs try to put together a committee for muslim scholars across the world in order to establish a united front...the meeting ends with in 30 seconds...they don't want to compromise and for some reason, set aside their differences for the common good. There are small pockets of Islamic unity throughout the world (Red crescent, etc), but they're not eniugh to create too much commotion.

    Also, another thing that the west doesn't seem to understand is that we have a HIGH amount of respect for all our religious figures (Allah, Mohammed, the Angels, All the prophets of God, etc)...i mean a HIGH amount. So high that when they are ridiculed, we are EXTREMELY offended. This may not seem rational to you, but to us, our faith is everything. This doesn't demean us in any way and we take it in the highest regards. The problem is how we behave in such a stateof offense...sadly, in the worst way possible and in an un-islamic fashion. That's why the world's view of us is altered.

    We know what our problem is...the problem is the unity.
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    Most in the west do NOT ridicule islam. We merely state that we have other ideas about the existence or non-existence of god. You suggest that we should not believe everything we see in our media, I accept that. You mus accept that it is the same for muslims. Recently the pope referred to a 14th centurey Bizantine Emporer, the pope did NOT say Ialam was evil, however that is the way it was interpreted by many of the islamic faith. You problem and the problem of ALL muslims is that when a westerner says "I do not believe in God" you take it as a personal insult EVERYTIME! - well maybe your God did create you and your world - BUT he did not create me!. I have my own God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Most in the west do NOT ridicule islam. We merely state that we have other ideas about the existence or non-existence of god. You suggest that we should not believe everything we see in our media, I accept that. You mus accept that it is the same for muslims. Recently the pope referred to a 14th centurey Bizantine Emporer, the pope did NOT say Ialam was evil, however that is the way it was interpreted by many of the islamic faith. You problem and the problem of ALL muslims is that when a westerner says "I do not believe in God" you take it as a personal insult EVERYTIME! - well maybe your God did create you and your world - BUT he did not create me!. I have my own God.
    Wow...why all the offense? :?

    Anyways, I realize that most in the west do not ridicule Islam, but if you're going to generalize about Islam and muslims, is it not fair for me to generalize about the West?

    But, I'm not going to do that because that is stereotipical and ignorant.

    My problem? The problem of all muslims? Wow Billco...i thought you were more objective than that! I'm disappointed, honestly.

    Then again, whom am I to judge your past experiences. Perhaps what you've experienced is leading you to make such decisions. I guess all I can do is apologize on behalf of all the muslims for the pain that we've, apparently, caused you. Sincerely..I'm not being a punk or anything. But, you're still wrong.

    You problem and the problem of ALL muslims is that when a westerner says "I do not believe in God" you take it as a personal insult EVERYTIME! - well maybe your God did create you and your world - BUT he did not create me!. I have my own God
    Obviously you haven't met a true muslim nor do you know the truth about islam. You take the "commoner's response" for granted and use it authoritatively. First of all, that's not scientific and it is not logical. In order to uncover any truth, you have to consider all perspecitves. Your only perspective is a bleak one and I'm sorry for that...but you can't go about blaming every muslim for what our community does. That's just wrong.

    I have alot of respect for CaptainCaveman because he handles his responses objectively and raises serious questions without the intention of causing conflict...at least that's how I see it. It's actually a pleasure to debate with him because its in a scientific manner. Also, none of his comments were an attack on me and my faith; neither did I take them as so.

    If this is going to serve as a fued grounds rather than an objective debate, please end it. Once again...no good can come of this.
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  77. #76  
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    wow I've missed out on a lot of talk

    ------
    ok ok i said:

    It has no respect for other religions
    I should have said:

    It should have no respect for other religions
    my point was not directed for the purpose of growing Islam, but showing that the other ways of life were against the words of God.
    ------

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    we show MORE mercy than ISLAM
    I didn't start the offensive talk, if it were offensive those are my PERSONAL views, as are your offensive views.

    ------

    You may have disagreed with my way of thinking SciGuySam, though I do object to your method of 'lets not talk about' - it stirs up trouble. So what if it does? Even if there was all-out war, and I died, you died, a relative died - it HURTS but its better than keeping Islam to yourself (dont just leave it to the experts, there aren't enough, with enough social experience to do anything).

    I am Muslim, and very proud of what I have personally achieved through this belief, and the strengths it has provided me with, as well as the strengths I have passed onto others with it ... etc. But again not to stir up trouble but to give my views and personal experience - todays muslim youths (that I know of) are full of hate and have very similar views to my own, the only reason for this is the amazing belief which is Islam, the wests stereotype of muslims (which is becoming a little truer everytime they unnecessaryily invade a country with high population of muslims) and the selfish acts of the powerful muslims of this world. The Imams should try harder to remove the selfishness of these so-called muslims, instead of pretending to be friends with the west.

    -------

    btw CaptainCaveman was offensive to me and muslims (forgot which post it was), I didn't immediatly attack him or his beliefs, I simply carried on giving my opinion.

    -------

    Finally I dont really care about talking of the acts of muslims with you guys, simply because people live different lives, experience different experiences, and believe different beliefs. Your judgement on one person should not be the same as those on another, simply because of one similarity. I want to stay right on topic or else we create that 'hate' we all hate

    ------

    last bit of hate stiring, i promise: all those posts were so not an interesting read, it was all pappered friendship talk from SciGuySam, and disrespect from billco and caveman
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  78. #77  
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    todays muslim youths (that I know of) are full of hate and have very similar views to my own

    Have you not thought that this is the reason for the stereotyping of muslims in the west?
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  79. #78  
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    but showing that the other ways of life were against the words of God.
    i can ensure you i have nothing against any life style. and its not against my words either

    But again not to stir up trouble but to give my views and personal experience - todays muslim youths (that I know of) are full of hate and have very similar views to my own, the only reason for this is the amazing belief which is Islam
    the only amazing with it is its stupidity

    instead of pretending to be friends with the west.
    everyone should be friend with us. but we are sometimes a bunch of pussies

    btw CaptainCaveman was offensive to me and muslims (forgot which post it was)
    what did he say?


    Finally I dont really care about talking of the acts of muslims with you guys, simply because people live different lives, experience different experiences, and believe different beliefs.
    yes, but what ever that goes against the right of a human bieng is wrong. and islam goes against some as i understand it. Males watch womans as propety for exemple.

    plz dont use my name and say i dont want things
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    yes, but what ever that goes against the right of a human bieng is wrong. and islam goes against some as i understand it.
    Some muslims do take it to the extreme, but the rights of humans shouldn't be declared by humans (when there is a God), in my eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    plz dont use my name and say i dont want things
    Soz 'Z'.
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    but the rights of humans shouldn't be declared by humans
    we have declared it since its for us by us. Dont like the human rights cause it goes against your owning of womans? HA
    and also i dont have anything against the current human rights. so god have declared them as human rights.

    Getting my point?

    If you can say islam dont go against human rights i want to see a muslim woman go without that shall or what ever its called in english. and also in a nice bikini as the freedom of having what ever she wants on her
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  82. #81  
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    Pretty bad example, Zelos. What is required is any demonstration that Islam gives any woman the respect she is due, and make her own decision about fidelity in a relationship, and modesty in clothing, without imposing riduculous rules of behaviour that in 1400 years have done nothing but demonstrate for all the world to see the fear of the Muslim man of the female sex.

    I read about a senior Muslim community leader in Britain who was invited onto a radio show, probably to discuss racism - and when introduced to the female members of the panel he stated that he would not be able to shake their hands because he didn't know if they were menstruating or not.

    If only I had been the producer of that programme... I would have said, "If you break a rule of your religion, I'm sure there is some way that you can shrive your soul and obtain remission, in the privacy of your own religious practices. But right here and now you will show these women the respect that they are due as fellow human beings, or you will leave my studio. Try being a human being."

    The thing was, it wasn't as if this guy (I forget his name), an immigrant to the UK of 30 years standing, would not have been denigrated, abused to his face, and discriminated against many many times for no other reason than the colour of his skin.
    "It is comparatively easy to make clever guesses; indeed there are theorems, like 'Goldbach's Theorem' which have never been proved and which any fool could have guessed." G.H. Hardy, Fourier Series, 1943
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  83. #82  
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    SciGUySam,

    I'm merely stating things as I see them. If we should not believe the media, the printed word, then neither should you. If you stood in the middle of London and shouted God is great, nobody would take a blind bit of notice of you, If a westerner in a muslim country shouted "there is no God", my perception is he would be, at the very least, attacked.

    Furthermore whereas atheists are at least prepared to put their opinions aside for the purposs of debate, no muslim on this forum has yet been prepared to do the same, the debate therefore is never "does god exist" but always "why don't you believe in him?".

    The main problem with Islam is that it does NOT seem to have a 'head' representative who can give guidance to all it's followers. It seems to be a whole bunch of groups within, who all have different ideas on how the Qu'ran should be interpreted. They cannot agree amongst themselves, a united Religion would be a far more sensible idea.
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  84. #83  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    SciGUySam,

    I'm merely stating things as I see them. If we should not believe the media, the printed word, then neither should you. If you stood in the middle of London and shouted God is great, nobody would take a blind bit of notice of you, If a westerner in a muslim country shouted "there is no God", my perception is he would be, at the very least, attacked.

    Furthermore whereas atheists are at least prepared to put their opinions aside for the purposs of debate, no muslim on this forum has yet been prepared to do the same, the debate therefore is never "does god exist" but always "why don't you believe in him?".

    The main problem with Islam is that it does NOT seem to have a 'head' representative who can give guidance to all it's followers. It seems to be a whole bunch of groups within, who all have different ideas on how the Qu'ran should be interpreted. They cannot agree amongst themselves, a united Religion would be a far more sensible idea.


    Thats the thing in iraq, there is civil unrest between Sunni and Shi'a muslims and afghanistan is the same

    There are some groups that consider themselves Muslims, but are not accepted as Muslim by the majority of Muslims. For example, neither Sunni nor Shi'a Muslims accept Ahmadis or adherents of the Nation of Islam as fellow Muslims. To call any other Muslim as non-Muslim is forbidden in Islam. Some groups who consider themselves Muslims are also not considered Muslims by the laws of their countries; for example, Ahmadis are not Muslims by the law of Pakistan
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  85. #84  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    SciGUySam,

    I'm merely stating things as I see them. If we should not believe the media, the printed word, then neither should you. If you stood in the middle of London and shouted God is great, nobody would take a blind bit of notice of you, If a westerner in a muslim country shouted "there is no God", my perception is he would be, at the very least, attacked.

    Furthermore whereas atheists are at least prepared to put their opinions aside for the purposs of debate, no muslim on this forum has yet been prepared to do the same, the debate therefore is never "does god exist" but always "why don't you believe in him?".

    The main problem with Islam is that it does NOT seem to have a 'head' representative who can give guidance to all it's followers. It seems to be a whole bunch of groups within, who all have different ideas on how the Qu'ran should be interpreted. They cannot agree amongst themselves, a united Religion would be a far more sensible idea.


    Thats the thing in iraq, there is civil unrest between Sunni and Shi'a muslims and afghanistan is the same

    There are some groups that consider themselves Muslims, but are not accepted as Muslim by the majority of Muslims. For example, neither Sunni nor Shi'a Muslims accept Ahmadis or adherents of the Nation of Islam as fellow Muslims. To call any other Muslim as non-Muslim is forbidden in Islam. Some groups who consider themselves Muslims are also not considered Muslims by the laws of their countries; for example, Ahmadis are not Muslims by the law of Pakistan
    Christianity too, has it's divisions...
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  86. #85  
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    yeah true, catholic, protestant thing springs to mind
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  87. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    yeah true, catholic, protestant thing springs to mind
    Babtists, presbytarians, mormons, greek orthodox, russian orthodox.......
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  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    yeah true, catholic, protestant thing springs to mind
    Babtists, presbytarians, mormons, greek orthodox, russian orthodox.......

    dont forget jehovah's witness they saw it all
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  89. #88  
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    yeah true, catholic, protestant thing springs to mind
    Babtists, presbytarians, mormons, greek orthodox, russian orthodox.......

    dont forget jehovah's witness they saw it all
    They tried to sell me a watchtower once, I asked if it was high enough to repair a chimney, it wasn't so I didn't.
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  90. #89  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    yeah true, catholic, protestant thing springs to mind
    Babtists, presbytarians, mormons, greek orthodox, russian orthodox.......

    dont forget jehovah's witness they saw it all
    They tried to sell me a watchtower once, I asked if it was high enough to repair a chimney, it wasn't so I didn't.
    i always ask how bad the accident was
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