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Thread: Paying someone to help my dad out with religion

  1. #1 Paying someone to help my dad out with religion 
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    Hey, guys. I need help with my Dad. He has been brainwashed by the cult religion, the Jehovah's Witnesses, which I grew up with myself, of course, but fortunately came to my senses. I believe the right person can persuade him to see the facts. He is not too close-minded like a lot of fundamentalists.


    I've wrote about my Dad's story here, but found no interest in helping me:
    Paying to help my Dad out with religion - SciForums.com


    I need someone to chat with him about religion, the Bible, etc. and see how it goes. If he is unreasonable, so be it, but I do believe his will be reasonable and come to his senses. I wish for you to record the conversation (I can help with this if you don't know how), and share it with the world. I believe this will help spread the real truth around the world. I will create a website around the audio files and we can split the profits (you can have access to the adsense account a long with me to be sure). I will also pay you in a $5 Amazon GC.


    I would really appreciate if someone could do this for me! I'll help with anything you want. Please message me if you feel you can do this, and be sure to visit the above link. It will also help the atheist community.


    - Mike


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  3. #2  
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    hmmm... 'tis a conster.

    I wish you luck in your endeavor, and if you truly want help than I'm sure plenty of people can advise you for free. While certain segments of science, like religion, is more concerned with money and power I suspect there is little of that here.


    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    hmmm... 'tis a conster.I wish you luck in your endeavor, and if you truly want help than I'm sure plenty of people can advise you for free. While certain segments of science, like religion, is more concerned with money and power I suspect there is little of that here.
    Thank you very much. I just want this so much for my Dad, I would offer almost anything, and so far no one wants to help. =(
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    I'm a hard core science freak who hates everything about religion and I want to do everything I can to rid the world of this horrible vermin, and I would love to make lots of money doing it. It's kinda like a dream come true if you'll actually pay for me to do what I love so much to do.

    How about I give you my credit card number and we can get right to work?
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    hmmm... 'tis a conster.I wish you luck in your endeavor, and if you truly want help than I'm sure plenty of people can advise you for free. While certain segments of science, like religion, is more concerned with money and power I suspect there is little of that here.
    Thank you very much. I just want this so much for my Dad, I would offer almost anything, and so far no one wants to help. =(
    A standard con element is to offer people money for taking some action or other. Many members may suspect that this is the front end of some kind of con. It might have been more believable if you had gone into details of how exactly we are meant to speak to your father. How, for one, will we justify being in a position to talk to him? How do we pay for the international phone call? You say he is not computer literate, so how can you connect us online without showing your hand: something you say you cannot risk doing. It smells fishy to me. There are several here who might consider helping if we knew more and were convinced of your sincerity. That's not the case, at least for me, right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    I'm a hard core science freak who hates everything about religion and I want to do everything I can to rid the world of this horrible vermin, and I would love to make lots of money doing it. It's kinda like a dream come true if you'll actually pay for me to do what I love so much to do.How about I give you my credit card number and we can get right to work?
    Card numbers are never given to an individual on the Internet. I have a $5 Amazon Gift Certificate. You can also make money from the advertisements on the website if you decide to record it. Thanks.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    hmmm... 'tis a conster.I wish you luck in your endeavor, and if you truly want help than I'm sure plenty of people can advise you for free. While certain segments of science, like religion, is more concerned with money and power I suspect there is little of that here.
    Thank you very much. I just want this so much for my Dad, I would offer almost anything, and so far no one wants to help. =(
    A standard con element is to offer people money for taking some action or other. Many members may suspect that this is the front end of some kind of con. It might have been more believable if you had gone intolerable details of how exactly we are meant to speak to your father. How, for one, will we justify being in a position to talk to him? How do we pay for the international phone call? You say he is not computer literate, so how can you connect us online without showing your hand: something you say you cannot risk doing. It smells fishy to me. There are several here who might consider helping if we knew more and were convinced of your sincerity. That's not the case, at least for me, right now.
    I hope double posting is allowed on this forum. I'm on my mobile right now and it's kind of hard to edit. Anyway, I am not asking for any money, so it'd be kind of hard to con you. If you don't trust me, I can give you the gift card first before you call if you are trusted on the forum. If you aren't trusted, or a regular member with a lot of posts, then I can give you the GC in the middle of the phone call.Your other questions are all answered at the sciforums link. Google voice can call regular land lines. I never thought of an international phone caller. Kind of assumed they would be in the US or Canada to use Google Voice for free. All I have is a $5 Amazon GC at the moment... sadly.
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  9. #8  
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    Why do you think they would believe some random guy you met on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why do you think they would believe some random guy you met on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
    Who is "they"? I just want help with my Dad.

    Thank you.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why do you think they would believe some random guy you met on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
    Who is "they"? I just want help with my Dad.

    Thank you.
    Ok then, why do you think your dad would believe some random guy on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
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    ... You know, just to play Jehovah's Adovocate here, I believe skype would solve most of the problems here.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
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    garbonzo, I'm not saying you are practicing a con. I am saying your rather unusual way of going about asking for help raises doubts. Seriously, stop offering money for this. It looks ridiculous. People will either help because they genuinely wish to assist, or not. There are members her who can earn that $5.00 in a couple of minutes work. They aren't going to be attracted to doing this for money. Focus on the issues surrounding your father's thinking. Offer insights as to what approach you think might work on him. Frankly, you would be better trying to convince him yourself and some her might be able to offer good advice on how to go about that.

    In summary if you are genuine - and I am not yet convinced - then you have my sincere sympathy, but I don't believe your current approach is a wise one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    garbonzo, I'm not saying you are practicing a con. I am saying your rather unusual way of going about asking for help raises doubts. Seriously, stop offering money for this. It looks ridiculous. People will either help because they genuinely wish to assist, or not. There are members her who can earn that $5.00 in a couple of minutes work. They aren't going to be attracted to doing this for money. Focus on the issues surrounding your father's thinking. Offer insights as to what approach you think might work on him. Frankly, you would be better trying to convince him yourself and some her might be able to offer good advice on how to go about that. In summary if you are genuine - and I am not yet convinced - then you have my sincere sympathy, but I don't believe your current approach is a wise one.
    I've already said that if someone wants to help me for free, then I would truly appreciate that obviously. Lol. But I've tried before if people could do this for me out of the goodness of their heart elsewhere and no one was willing to help. I thought money would be the only other option. If you researched me on Sciforums you would see I am no con man. I am not asking for any money at all!
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Why do you think they would believe some random guy you met on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
    Who is "they"? I just want help with my Dad. Thank you.
    Ok then, why do you think your dad would believe some random guy on the internet, but not the many other sources available?
    He wont know its a random guy on the Internet. I've figured out a way to get around that if you read the thread on SciForums. Also he has no access to other sources available.If you have any other questions, I would urge you to read the thread on SciForums, as I've devoted a lot of time to that thread, not only in the OP, but chatting with the other users there, also.Thank you.
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  16. #15  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Has your father always been a Jehovah's Witness? Why would you want to change his religion?

    Does it cause any practical problems? I can't imagine what, particularly. Maybe he gives all his money to the church and his family are starving? Or does he need an operation to save his life but refuses because it would mean having a blood donation?

    I just don't understand why you would care what his religion is.

    Edit: having had a quick scan of the other thread, I think you are blaming his religion for his other problems in life.
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Has your father always been a Jehovah's Witness? Why would you want to change his religion?Does it cause any practical problems? I can't imagine what, particularly. Maybe he gives all his money to the church and his family are starving? Or does he need an operation to save his life but refuses because it would mean having a blood donation?I just don't understand why you would care what his religion is.Edit: having had a quick scan of the other thread, I think you are blaming his religion for his other problems in life.
    I'm not blaming. It is. At least he thinks so and that is enough, isn't it? He could commit suicide. His life is shit right now and this religion is making it worse. He doesn't need hope for the future, that there is some perfect life after death, he needs happiness now.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    I'm not blaming. It is. At least he thinks so and that is enough, isn't it? He could commit suicide. His life is shit right now and this religion is making it worse. He doesn't need hope for the future, that there is some perfect life after death, he needs happiness now.
    OK. Maybe he is blaming his problems on his religion. I do wonder if there is not some deeper problem to be addressed. There are, after all, people who are Jehovah's Witnesses who are perfectly happy. You might talk him out of his religion only to find that he is still desperately unhappy but without even the consolation of his religion.

    If he thinks the problem with his religion, then why isn't he looking for information? (There are other sources of information than the Internet.)
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    I'm not blaming. It is. At least he thinks so and that is enough, isn't it? He could commit suicide. His life is shit right now and this religion is making it worse. He doesn't need hope for the future, that there is some perfect life after death, he needs happiness now.
    OK. Maybe he is blaming his problems on his religion. I do wonder if there is not some deeper problem to be addressed. There are, after all, people who are Jehovah's Witnesses who are perfectly happy. You might talk him out of his religion only to find that he is still desperately unhappy but without even the consolation of his religion.

    If he thinks the problem with his religion, then why isn't he looking for information? (There are other sources of information than the Internet.)
    I beg of you to read the SciForums thread. Everything is covered there.
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  20. #19  
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    Alright, there are now three issues in question.

    Why is it so imperative to dissuade your father in his beliefs?

    Is your father really considering suicide?

    Why are you offering money for this?

    First question I think has been addressed. There are plenty of ways to talk to someone about religion, but your effort is futile if you are expectant of a certain outcome, i.e. persuasion. Most "normal" people tend to become even more stubborn when others are trying to persuade them. Not always, but it's a natural reaction. You'd be better off just talking and encouraging, but not expecting. You will most likely fail.

    Second, if suicide is really in the question than this is not a matter of belief in religion. Suicidal people come in all shapes and sizes. There is no native Chinese religion for example, but there are many suicidal young Chinese students. Suicide is not really something you can persuade someone out of. Either they're threatening suicide because they have a highly manipulative personality type but wouldn't actually follow through, or they actually want to die and no matter what argument or logic you give them they will find a way to nullify it. It's pretty simple for anyone to argue that life is inherently meaningless and not worth experiencing. The point is that, if suicide is actually part of the equation, as you have expressed, than forget the religion business and get some meds. Deal with the immediate situation before trying to remedy the long term one... or there won't be a long term one to remedy.

    Lastly, if you really care about your father's faith, and/or your father is really contemplating suicide, how is it you came to the conclusion that this is a situation you could make some cash off of? I'm just curious? It sure is one way to seize the opportunities of the moment isn't it? There's libraries of free articles, books, and videos about why someone ought to give up their faith. There are probably countless people who no doubt would offer some argument without asking for pay. I'm sure your father has met some of the people during the course of his life already. So, why are you offering money (or why is it convenient to make money off of this matter, and conveniently divide it out, through a conveniently impersonal process)?

    This ultimately goes around to the first question though. If you really have tried everything than it's not a matter of your methods it's a matter of your father's thinking. In this case, you simply can't win. Both religious and non-religious people find happiness. Therefore unhappiness, depression, and suicide are not a caused by religion.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    Is your father really considering suicide?
    I can't be inside his head, but he has told me he has considered it in the past. He has been married 4 times. They all cheated on him. He thinks I am his last hope and he believes I won't be saved if I stop going to the meetings, stop believing, etc. That might push him, and I have no control over that. I'm sure you agree, not trying to be selfish or anything, but I have to take care of myself first and foremost. I didn't see another way out of this, but to get him out of this religion gently of course. Also, he won't accept professional help as he thinks God will help him, which of course he isn't, he is getting worse everyday.

    Why are you offering money for this?
    I would appreciate it if someone could do this for free, but I am desperate enough to offer money if it is the only way.

    There are plenty of ways to talk to someone about religion, but your effort is futile if you are expectant of a certain outcome, i.e. persuasion. Most "normal" people tend to become even more stubborn when others are trying to persuade them. Not always, but it's a natural reaction. You'd be better off just talking and encouraging, but not expecting. You will most likely fail.
    There is nothing I can do if he has cognitive dissonance. I certainly won't force him to do anything. I'll drop the subject if I see he is closed minded. There is nothing I can do. It would be futile to say or do anymore on the subject. It would be out of my hands. I certainly won't jeopardize my own well being over the matter.

    Second, if suicide is really in the question than this is not a matter of belief in religion. Suicidal people come in all shapes and sizes. There is no native Chinese religion for example, but there are many suicidal young Chinese students. Suicide is not really something you can persuade someone out of. Either they're threatening suicide because they have a highly manipulative personality type but wouldn't actually follow through, or they actually want to die and no matter what argument or logic you give them they will find a way to nullify it. It's pretty simple for anyone to argue that life is inherently meaningless and not worth experiencing. The point is that, if suicide is actually part of the equation, as you have expressed, than forget the religion business and get some meds. Deal with the immediate situation before trying to remedy the long term one... or there won't be a long term one to remedy.
    That's not really sound reasoning. For instance, if a person wanted to commit suicide because their mate left them, if their mate came back and stayed with them for the rest of their life, it would be reasonable to conclude that that person won't want to commit suicide again. I've heard it happen before, someone I know. It was her backstory kind of. And the person stayed happy and stable till she died. Maybe they really didn't want to die? Nevertheless if the reason can be removed, it will help the situation I am sure, especially since my Dad doesn't want professional help. Maybe if he doesn't believe God will help him, he will want it?

    Lastly, if you really care about your father's faith, and/or your father is really contemplating suicide, how is it you came to the conclusion that this is a situation you could make some cash off of? I'm just curious? It sure is one way to seize the opportunities of the moment isn't it? There's libraries of free articles, books, and videos about why someone ought to give up their faith. There are probably countless people who no doubt would offer some argument without asking for pay. I'm sure your father has met some of the people during the course of his life already. So, why are you offering money (or why is it convenient to make money off of this matter, and conveniently divide it out, through a conveniently impersonal process)?
    I was thinking on how to appeal to the other person. Humans naturally want to look out for their own interests. One might not necessarily be greedy, but maybe they feel their time is too valuable to waste on something like this. Maybe it was a wrong decision, but it was my last resort, as other people didn't want to help. I thought it was the only way. People who write books, videos, articles, etc. that make money on atheistic things aren't necessarily greedy... it's the same way.

    This ultimately goes around to the first question though. If you really have tried everything than it's not a matter of your methods it's a matter of your father's thinking. In this case, you simply can't win. Both religious and non-religious people find happiness. Therefore unhappiness, depression, and suicide are not a caused by religion.
    This is not true at all. My Father's unhappiness is directly caused by the religion. The marital thing popped up 3 years ago, so he is over that. What he is stressed and depressed about now is what the religion wants him to do. etc.

    Also, I haven't tried everything. I haven't tried asking someone to help. That's why I came on here. =P

    Thank you.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Is your father really considering suicide?
    I can't be inside his head, but he has told me he has considered it in the past. He has been married 4 times. They all cheated on him. He thinks I am his last hope and he believes I won't be saved if I stop going to the meetings, stop believing, etc. That might push him, and I have no control over that. I'm sure you agree, not trying to be selfish or anything, but I have to take care of myself first and foremost. I didn't see another way out of this, but to get him out of this religion gently of course. Also, he won't accept professional help as he thinks God will help him, which of course he isn't, he is getting worse everyday.
    Yes, I would agree you take care of yourself. Do you have friends you can go to for help?

    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Why are you offering money for this?
    I would appreciate it if someone could do this for free, but I am desperate enough to offer money if it is the only way.
    If this is really the case than I would be more careful in the future. One of the first signs of a confidence trick is the offering of money. Greed gets 'em every time.

    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    There are plenty of ways to talk to someone about religion, but your effort is futile if you are expectant of a certain outcome, i.e. persuasion. Most "normal" people tend to become even more stubborn when others are trying to persuade them. Not always, but it's a natural reaction. You'd be better off just talking and encouraging, but not expecting. You will most likely fail.
    There is nothing I can do if he has cognitive dissonance. I certainly won't force him to do anything. I'll drop the subject if I see he is closed minded. There is nothing I can do. It would be futile to say or do anymore on the subject. It would be out of my hands. I certainly won't jeopardize my own well being over the matter.
    I hope you know when it is the right time to do this. Friends and relatives can help in these decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Second, if suicide is really in the question than this is not a matter of belief in religion. Suicidal people come in all shapes and sizes. There is no native Chinese religion for example, but there are many suicidal young Chinese students. Suicide is not really something you can persuade someone out of. Either they're threatening suicide because they have a highly manipulative personality type but wouldn't actually follow through, or they actually want to die and no matter what argument or logic you give them they will find a way to nullify it. It's pretty simple for anyone to argue that life is inherently meaningless and not worth experiencing. The point is that, if suicide is actually part of the equation, as you have expressed, than forget the religion business and get some meds. Deal with the immediate situation before trying to remedy the long term one... or there won't be a long term one to remedy.
    That's not really sound reasoning. For instance, if a person wanted to commit suicide because their mate left them, if their mate came back and stayed with them for the rest of their life, it would be reasonable to conclude that that person won't want to commit suicide again. I've heard it happen before, someone I know. It was her backstory kind of. And the person stayed happy and stable till she died. Maybe they really didn't want to die? Nevertheless if the reason can be removed, it will help the situation I am sure, especially since my Dad doesn't want professional help. Maybe if he doesn't believe God will help him, he will want it?
    No, wrong, it is sound reasoning. The crucial point that you are missing is that someone who is suicidal does not have sound reasoning. I can tell you this from personal experience and from other people's stories (a few of which are on this forum).

    I was in the same situation you described, and the person threatening suicide was doing nothing more than screwing with my head, because this person has a number of serious mental disturbances, and concluded that she NEEDED me to survive. I spent many an hour crying after being told the details of this persons suicide plan and when they would do it. Two weeks later this person was seeing someone else, and I was the worst person in the world to them (look up BPD).

    A person has to make their own choices about getting into a relationship. Some people think it's as serious as life and death, some don't. Some people will just mess with your head.

    Other examples of suicide are all the same. The person thinks of logical reasons to die. They are then presented with logical reasons to live. In the end however, the choice is theirs. Logic can almost always be applied to either side of the debate; logic is not truth. You can't blame anyone for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Lastly, if you really care about your father's faith, and/or your father is really contemplating suicide, how is it you came to the conclusion that this is a situation you could make some cash off of? I'm just curious? It sure is one way to seize the opportunities of the moment isn't it? There's libraries of free articles, books, and videos about why someone ought to give up their faith. There are probably countless people who no doubt would offer some argument without asking for pay. I'm sure your father has met some of the people during the course of his life already. So, why are you offering money (or why is it convenient to make money off of this matter, and conveniently divide it out, through a conveniently impersonal process)?
    I was thinking on how to appeal to the other person. Humans naturally want to look out for their own interests. One might not necessarily be greedy, but maybe they feel their time is too valuable to waste on something like this. Maybe it was a wrong decision, but it was my last resort, as other people didn't want to help. I thought it was the only way. People who write books, videos, articles, etc. that make money on atheistic things aren't necessarily greedy... it's the same way.
    I'm not accusing you of greediness. I've already explained why I think it's silly to offer money.

    You need to realize that people's minds are wired differently, whether by culture or genetics. It's truly hard to believe this, but I can give you a method that might help you to understand. Try becoming a serious Jehovah's Witness. This does not mean think of reasons to be one, it means be one. Can you believe in what they believe, with all of your heart? Now imagine what you're trying to do to your dad? You're both fighting the same battle on opposite sides. Either one of you has to give, or you both do.

    Regarding using this matter to make money, hey, whatever floats your boat man.

    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    This ultimately goes around to the first question though. If you really have tried everything than it's not a matter of your methods it's a matter of your father's thinking. In this case, you simply can't win. Both religious and non-religious people find happiness. Therefore unhappiness, depression, and suicide are not a caused by religion.
    This is not true at all. My Father's unhappiness is directly caused by the religion. The marital thing popped up 3 years ago, so he is over that. What he is stressed and depressed about now is what the religion wants him to do. etc.

    Also, I haven't tried everything. I haven't tried asking someone to help. That's why I came on here. =P

    Thank you.
    Again wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I urge you to think it over. Unhappy people aren't unhappy because of the circumstances they're in, they're unhappy because they want to be. Humans have the luxury of being able to live happily in the fiery depths up hell if they want to. Happiness is a state of mind that can be influenced by external forces, but more importantly, it can be controlled by inner ones. There are many people in this wold much worse of than your dad who are very happy. Unhappy people are unhappy because it's just who they are. (I'm not talking about short term stuff. Of course we can all fall into a bad mood, or mild depression. Though, even these small blips can be controlled through practice.)
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    I want to help you in this matter and you do not need to pay anything for it, now can you tell me your dad's skype id? i want to talk with him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Also, he won't accept professional help as he thinks God will help him, which of course he isn't, he is getting worse everyday.
    Everything you say convinces me that the religion is a red herring. I think you should focus on this bit. Maybe persuade him that professional help is one of the routes that God might choose to help him, for example. (I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses are against all medical help; just certain types of, mainly surgical, intervention, no?) After all, God helps those who help themselves.

    Tell him the joke about the guy who asks God every week to make him win the lottery. After several weeks God says, "work with me here, at least buy a ticket". In other words, if he seeks professional help, that gives God a way to help him.

    And how do you know some random guy who pops up and offers to help isn't just going to call your dad and start saying, "you loser, why don't you end it all..."
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    By an amazing coincidence (you should tell your dad about it) just after typing that, I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knock on the door. I took the opportunity to ask them about getting psychiatric help. They made a few useful points: Witnesses have no objection to psychiatric treatment (including medication but excluding hypnosis); they have a leaflet on depression; if your father thinks there is any conflict between his faith and seeking professional help then he should talk to one of the Elders.

    Just to be clear, the main problems with your approach are:
    a) It is morally repugnant
    b) It won't work
    c) If it did work it wouldn't solve the problem
    d) It is morally repugnant.
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    Yes, I would agree you take care of yourself. Do you have friends you can go to for help?
    Not if they all shun me, lol. I've been homeschooled since 6th grade and moved away since then. So I know no one not connected to the religion. I don't even leave the house much.



    I hope you know when it is the right time to do this. Friends and relatives can help in these decisions.
    The right time to do what?

    No, wrong, it is sound reasoning. The crucial point that you are missing is that someone who is suicidal does not have sound reasoning. I can tell you this from personal experience and from other people's stories (a few of which are on this forum).

    I was in the same situation you described, and the person threatening suicide was doing nothing more than screwing with my head, because this person has a number of serious mental disturbances, and concluded that she NEEDED me to survive. I spent many an hour crying after being told the details of this persons suicide plan and when they would do it. Two weeks later this person was seeing someone else, and I was the worst person in the world to them (look up BPD).

    A person has to make their own choices about getting into a relationship. Some people think it's as serious as life and death, some don't. Some people will just mess with your head.

    Other examples of suicide are all the same. The person thinks of logical reasons to die. They are then presented with logical reasons to live. In the end however, the choice is theirs. Logic can almost always be applied to either side of the debate; logic is not truth. You can't blame anyone for it.
    A person who is suicidal may just not believe they have anything to live for anymore. This situation isn't like bi-polar disorder who is suicidal for no good reason. My mom has BPD, so I know. The person I was talking about didn't have BPD, she was just at the end of her life and her mate left her. What was there for her to live for anymore? Retired, no friends, etc. He came back to her and she had something to live for again, and was happy until she died. You don't have to be mental to want to commit suicide.

    I'm not accusing you of greediness. I've already explained why I think it's silly to offer money.
    You think it's silly, but yet I doubt you will want to help me out with this issue. If you won't help me out, maybe someone who is need of money might. That's my reasoning. Maybe it wasn't sound, but I am desperate.

    You need to realize that people's minds are wired differently, whether by culture or genetics. It's truly hard to believe this, but I can give you a method that might help you to understand. Try becoming a serious Jehovah's Witness. This does not mean think of reasons to be one, it means be one. Can you believe in what they believe, with all of your heart? Now imagine what you're trying to do to your dad? You're both fighting the same battle on opposite sides. Either one of you has to give, or you both do.
    You can't compare the two when one is based on fact (or what we currently know) and the other is based on fairytales. Like I said, if he is unreasonable, so be it, but he hasn't been given a chance, yet.

    Again wrong. You're welcome to disagree, but I urge you to think it over. Unhappy people aren't unhappy because of the circumstances they're in, they're unhappy because they want to be. Humans have the luxury of being able to live happily in the fiery depths up hell if they want to. Happiness is a state of mind that can be influenced by external forces, but more importantly, it can be controlled by inner ones. There are many people in this wold much worse of than your dad who are very happy. Unhappy people are unhappy because it's just who they are. (I'm not talking about short term stuff. Of course we can all fall into a bad mood, or mild depression. Though, even these small blips can be controlled through practice.)
    The human mind can be adaptable, I agree, but some minds are weaker than others. For you to be able to control your happiness even under torture would require a very heightened state of mind. Outside influences will always effect happiness. You can control it only to some extent, unless you master being in control of your state of mind.

    If I were placed in solitary confinement in a straight jacket for 30 days right now, I would be a wreck. I wouldn't be happy, I can tell you that. I don't know if I could even survive it. You can say I don't have control over my state of mind, but that is how I am. Maybe I will become better at it as I grow older, but not everyone will.

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    Also, he won't accept professional help as he thinks God will help him, which of course he isn't, he is getting worse everyday.
    Everything you say convinces me that the religion is a red herring. I think you should focus on this bit. Maybe persuade him that professional help is one of the routes that God might choose to help him, for example. (I don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses are against all medical help; just certain types of, mainly surgical, intervention, no?) After all, God helps those who help themselves.

    Tell him the joke about the guy who asks God every week to make him win the lottery. After several weeks God says, "work with me here, at least buy a ticket". In other words, if he seeks professional help, that gives God a way to help him.

    And how do you know some random guy who pops up and offers to help isn't just going to call your dad and start saying, "you loser, why don't you end it all..."
    Oh, of course the religion doesn't say not to go to professional help. My mom gets treated for BPD, has a therapist, physiatrist, etc.

    Both me and my Mom both told my Dad he might have BPD or depression and he doesn't want to admit it. He says, "Everyone goes through depression." etc.

    He believes that no longer how long his depression is, it is temporary, lol.

    I believe that I may have mild BPD, or depression also, but I am able to control it by controlling my circumstance, working out, drinking water, doing things I like to do, etc.

    Your circumstances can effect depression. If I had different circumstances, I may be as psycho as my Mom. If my Dad's circumstances change, I believe it will at least help him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    By an amazing coincidence (you should tell your dad about it) just after typing that, I had a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses knock on the door. I took the opportunity to ask them about getting psychiatric help. They made a few useful points: Witnesses have no objection to psychiatric treatment (including medication but excluding hypnosis); they have a leaflet on depression; if your father thinks there is any conflict between his faith and seeking professional help then he should talk to one of the Elders.

    Just to be clear, the main problems with your approach are:
    a) It is morally repugnant
    b) It won't work
    c) If it did work it wouldn't solve the problem
    d) It is morally repugnant.
    It is an amazing coincidence, and the JWs would publish this coincidence and say how it's proof God's holy spirit is at work and directing the organization, if they got the chance, lol. But that is beside the point.

    Why do you think it is morally repugnant?

    And it will solve the problem if it works, if he does have BPD, then he made still need to get professional help, but he will be way better off. Even if it may not work, that not a reason not to try.
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    It is morally repugnant because you are asking a complete stranger, whose motives you have no idea about, to call a distressed man, lie to them and to do so for money. If you don't see how morally repugnant that is, perhaps you need more help than your father.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    It is morally repugnant because you are asking a complete stranger, whose motives you have no idea about, to call a distressed man, lie to them and to do so for money. If you don't see how morally repugnant that is, perhaps you need more help than your father.
    Actually, I wasn't even thinking about that part (which is bad enough), just the idea that you should try and "cure" someone of their religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    It is morally repugnant because you are asking a complete stranger, whose motives you have no idea about, to call a distressed man, lie to them and to do so for money. If you don't see how morally repugnant that is, perhaps you need more help than your father.
    Why would I ask someone to do this for money? I am not *asking* them to take the money, I actually asked if they would like to do it for free out of the kindness of their heart, and I'd be grateful for that. I am not asking anyone to lie to my Dad. Only be his Bible study student for a few minutes. I am not asking anyone to say anything no one would say when he goes knocking on other people's doors. I only intend the phone call to spark something my Dad ultimately has to light. He has to take his own road. But he doesn't have the chance to right now. Also, I will have complete control of the phone call, as I will be listening in and can cut the Google voice off if need be.You have no idea how long I have thought this through.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    I am not asking anyone to lie to my Dad. Only be his Bible study student for a few minutes.
    You are asking somone to pretend they are talking to him with a view to Bible study, when actually they are there to sow seeds of doubt in his mind. So, yes - you are asking them to lie. Take a step back and take a good look at the situation. just because it is distressing to you is not an excuse to behave unethically.
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    Ok how's this. all throughout the ages, the sun has been worshipped and recognised as the reason we are alive and personified as a god. Many many many religions have almost the EXACT same story as the bible (many people seem to not know this). All of the religeons mentioned soon share many of the following storys. the savior born on the 25th, born of a virgin, the 3 kings followed the star in the east to find the birthplace, teacher at age 12, baptised at the age of 30, had 12 desciples, performed miricles such as healing the sick and walking on water, after being betrayed by *insert name here depending on religeon* the messiah was cruscified, then layed dead for 3 days only to be ressurected again. Many of these attributes are held in common with world religeons all throughout the ages. To list a few: Attis frijia(don't ask how to spell that, its pronounced phonetically from that spelling though) - 1200 BC, Krishna of the indian religeon 900BC, horris of egyption religeon 3000BC, Dionysus - Greece 500BC, Mithra - persia - 1200BC. There are strong indications that the storys that these religeons, and more, all hold in common, are purely astrological storys. If you bear with me and assume that the sun is jesus for a moment, the "THREE KINGS" (yes thats what those stars are actually called, even today) of orions belt follow the "star in the east" or Sirius (brightest star in the sky to the east of the 3 kings which all point in a line in the direction of the sun rise or, the birth of the sun, or the birth of Jesus. The virgin mary refurs to the constilation virgo.
    If you go quite far north of the equator, you will notice that towards the end of the year, the days get shorter and the sun rises less and less, appearing to head further and further south, and eventually (on the 23rd of december) the sun will get to a point where it will barely rise, and stay like that for 3 days, during those 3 days it will reside in the viscinity of the southern cross or "crucifix" so the sun/jesus "dies" for 3 days having been "crucified" on the cross/southern cross and then finaly on december 25th the sun moves 1 degree north in the sky and and is "ressurected".
    The twelve desciples are simply the 12 signs of the zodiac. You can actually notice the story getting copyed from the old testament to the new testament. joseph from the old testament is the same charactor as jesus from the new testament. they were both betrayed and sold for 30 pieces of silver, they both became child teachers at the age of 12, they both were baptised at age 30 and they both performed miricles such as healing the sick.

    Thats just ONE aspect to take a tear at religeon. There are SO many angles you could take this from, religeon is easy to disprove to someone willing to listen. athiesm has the element of truth and it is EASY to see this when you start to expand what you know about science and religeon.
    to take a few quick rips from different angles. god would have to be litterally "magic" to do the things he did, and if he can perform magic, its clearly possible, therefore with enough research, magic would be possible, but then you have to ask WHAT IS MAGIC? fact is once you define it and find out the mechanisms of how it works and what can be done and cant be done, you quickly discover that it is no longer magic. there is physically no possible way he could do the things he did.

    ethics... no FAIR god would send all those who didnt BLINDLY believe in him to an eternity of suffering regardless of whether they were nice people or not. I'm a nice enough person but in my life iv found nothing short of proof that god doesn't exist and I would see it as extremely petty and unfair for me to be sent to hell because of this.

    if you require me to go on from any different angles, just ask
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    Quote Originally Posted by somfooleishfool View Post
    Ok how's this. all throughout the ages, the sun has been worshipped and recognised as the reason we are alive and personified as a god. Many many many religions have almost the EXACT same story as the bible (many people seem to not know this). All of the religeons mentioned soon share many of the following storys. the savior born on the 25th, born of a virgin, the 3 kings followed the star in the east to find the birthplace, teacher at age 12, baptised at the age of 30, had 12 desciples, performed miricles such as healing the sick and walking on water, after being betrayed by *insert name here depending on religeon* the messiah was cruscified, then layed dead for 3 days only to be ressurected again. Many of these attributes are held in common with world religeons all throughout the ages. To list a few: Attis frijia(don't ask how to spell that, its pronounced phonetically from that spelling though) - 1200 BC, Krishna of the indian religeon 900BC, horris of egyption religeon 3000BC, Dionysus - Greece 500BC, Mithra - persia - 1200BC. There are strong indications that the storys that these religeons, and more, all hold in common, are purely astrological storys. If you bear with me and assume that the sun is jesus for a moment, the "THREE KINGS" (yes thats what those stars are actually called, even today) of orions belt follow the "star in the east" or Sirius (brightest star in the sky to the east of the 3 kings which all point in a line in the direction of the sun rise or, the birth of the sun, or the birth of Jesus. The virgin mary refurs to the constilation virgo.
    If you go quite far north of the equator, you will notice that towards the end of the year, the days get shorter and the sun rises less and less, appearing to head further and further south, and eventually (on the 23rd of december) the sun will get to a point where it will barely rise, and stay like that for 3 days, during those 3 days it will reside in the viscinity of the southern cross or "crucifix" so the sun/jesus "dies" for 3 days having been "crucified" on the cross/southern cross and then finaly on december 25th the sun moves 1 degree north in the sky and and is "ressurected".
    The twelve desciples are simply the 12 signs of the zodiac. You can actually notice the story getting copyed from the old testament to the new testament. joseph from the old testament is the same charactor as jesus from the new testament. they were both betrayed and sold for 30 pieces of silver, they both became child teachers at the age of 12, they both were baptised at age 30 and they both performed miricles such as healing the sick.

    Thats just ONE aspect to take a tear at religeon. There are SO many angles you could take this from, religeon is easy to disprove to someone willing to listen. athiesm has the element of truth and it is EASY to see this when you start to expand what you know about science and religeon.
    to take a few quick rips from different angles. god would have to be litterally "magic" to do the things he did, and if he can perform magic, its clearly possible, therefore with enough research, magic would be possible, but then you have to ask WHAT IS MAGIC? fact is once you define it and find out the mechanisms of how it works and what can be done and cant be done, you quickly discover that it is no longer magic. there is physically no possible way he could do the things he did.

    ethics... no FAIR god would send all those who didnt BLINDLY believe in him to an eternity of suffering regardless of whether they were nice people or not. I'm a nice enough person but in my life iv found nothing short of proof that god doesn't exist and I would see it as extremely petty and unfair for me to be sent to hell because of this.

    if you require me to go on from any different angles, just ask
    That's interesting. I've never heard that before. (the first thing) Is there more information on this?

    I've also heard that the early Christians were Christians before Christ supposedly was even born. The Pauline epistles came before Mark, Matthew, Luke and John, and the Pauline epistles never mention an earthly Jesus, so the earthly Jesus stories could have been copied from other cultures by some radical and somehow it became pop culture. Is there true? If it is, how can I get more information on this, also? Thanks.

    The other two points won't work for my Dad. God to him is almighty and can do anything, it doesn't matter how logical it is to human eyes.

    Regarding ethics... in the JW religion if you truly don't know, God will resurrect you if you die, but not if you get to Armageddon. Then you won't be saved, even if you are ignorant. lol Yeah, doesn't seem ethical to me, either. My Dad rationalizes this by saying somehow everyone will know the truth before Armageddon, and they will have to choose to ignore it or believe it, lol.
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    I always considered it unethical to make money off of religion since I don't really believe in it anyway (and if I did then it would be unethical for other reasons.) But it's never in all this time occurred to me that it might not be quite so unethical to make money helping people give up their beliefs and become atheists. Then I'm not selling them some kind of snake oil dream of a happy afterlife.

    From what I've heard, whole religions have been started as money schemes. If you have no particular knowledge about anything, but are very full of yourself, writing a book about religion is probably one of the easiest ways to get published. The problem for atheist writing is..... people won't be reading your book/blog/whatever until they are already convinced they want to be atheists. Until they reach that tipping point, the fear of an eternity in hell will prevent most people from taking the alternatives seriously. It's not about being happy/not happy. It's about avoiding the horrible fate they've spent their whole life believing everyone else will suffer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    That's interesting. I've never heard that before. (the first thing) Is there more information on this?
    Zeitgeist the movie.

    Also you might like Bill Maher's Religulous.
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    Use the amazon Gift card to buy books on the problems with JW's etc, there are plenty of them about!

    I'm not sure on the motives, but for me you use far too many 'lol's, even when talking about the bad parts such as BPD.

    I don't trust this thread personally. There is something more going on here I think!
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    Better still, use the Amazon gift card to buy your dad a book on coping with depression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by garbonzo607 View Post
    The other two points won't work for my Dad. God to him is almighty and can do anything, it doesn't matter how logical it is to human eyes.
    Can he create a rock that he cannot lift?

    (Sorry, that is not a serious suggestion - I doubt I can be much help here).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    There are, after all, people who are Jehovah's Witnesses who are perfectly happy.
    I have a JW aunt who will be dead in a few weeks, of cancer. She's a basically happy person who does not think too hard about the dogmas of her faith, but the JW community has been a great resource to her life and she knows it. I envy her for this. Whenever did atheists get a ride to the clinic, or a casserole, or a cut on the apartment rent, from strangers, because they were card-carrying atheists? The Jehovah's Witnesses are notoriously good for the wrong reasons. So, if you value goodness less than rightness you should push a wedge between your dad and them; or if you value goodness most, you should appeal to them: he could use their help.
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    Put your dad in isolation for a while, well he is in isolation feed him with awe-some videos, inspiring documentary, science documentary's, Science fiction documentary, any and all documentary associated with science and space. Get him watching millatary movies, this will help him be more independent and self confident in his way pursuing knowledge.
    Obviously a just a suggestion from me, but I think isolation combined with teachings can help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    There are, after all, people who are Jehovah's Witnesses who are perfectly happy.
    I have a JW aunt who will be dead in a few weeks, of cancer. She's a basically happy person who does not think too hard about the dogmas of her faith, but the JW community has been a great resource to her life and she knows it. I envy her for this. Whenever did atheists get a ride to the clinic, or a casserole, or a cut on the apartment rent, from strangers, because they were card-carrying atheists? The Jehovah's Witnesses are notoriously good for the wrong reasons. So, if you value goodness less than rightness you should push a wedge between your dad and them; or if you value goodness most, you should appeal to them: he could use their help.
    Depends on the area, maybe the age, and even the gender. They help old senior sisters in our congregation, but not even a single call for my Dad after missing meetings for months.I am not sure exactly where I lol'd. I've lived with my mother 16 out of the 18 years of my life, its kind of like a joke when she goes on her notorious rampages. Think some celebrity with a famous rage and people laugh at it. My mom is fine for the most part when she is on medication, so that's why its not a big deal. There is nothing to be fishy about it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japith View Post
    Put your dad in isolation for a while, well he is in isolation feed him with awe-some videos, inspiring documentary, science documentary's, Science fiction documentary, any and all documentary associated with science and space. Get him watching millatary movies, this will help him be more independent and self confident in his way pursuing knowledge.
    Obviously a just a suggestion from me, but I think isolation combined with teachings can help.
    It may help if you strap him down and hold his eyelids open as well, slowly dripping eye drops in for him. During the parts of the films about how science is good and JW is bad jack him up with extremely pleasurable drugs. This is a tried and true method.
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    You could try your Dad with a few loaded questions. Believers love to ask questions to unbelievers like 'Do you want Jesus to be your saviour'? So ask him if he had been born in Thailand wouldn't he be a Buddhist, or in Saudi Arabia, a Muslim. In the case of the JW's, only if he had been born before 1935 can he go to heaven as one of the elite 144,000. So ask him why he bothers to be a JW if he hadn't? Ask him why predicted dates for Armageddon have always passed without incident. It's a bit like asking a Catholic if that fragment of bread and drop of wine given in the Eucharist really became the body and blood of Christ. If they don't answer in the affirmative then you can confidently tell them they are not Catholics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ox View Post
    You could try your Dad with a few loaded questions. Believers love to ask questions to unbelievers like 'Do you want Jesus to be your saviour'? So ask him if he had been born in Thailand wouldn't he be a Buddhist, or in Saudi Arabia, a Muslim. In the case of the JW's, only if he had been born before 1935 can he go to heaven as one of the elite 144,000. So ask him why he bothers to be a JW if he hadn't? Ask him why predicted dates for Armageddon have always passed without incident. It's a bit like asking a Catholic if that fragment of bread and drop of wine given in the Eucharist really became the body and blood of Christ. If they don't answer in the affirmative then you can confidently tell them they are not Catholics.
    They believe it says in the Bible that "the light gets brighter" and thats how the explain it. lol
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  46. #45  
    So say we all! xLethal Vixenx's Avatar
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    Live and let live. How hard is it to understand this? Eventually religious people will learn the error of their ways, til then... Let them live in blissful ignorance.
    Arguing with a fundamentalist Christian is like playing chess with a pigeon.

    You could be the greatest player in the world, but the pigeon will still knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut around triumphantly.
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  47. #46  
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    I had a Mormon friend once who had a crisis of faith when his father died without having accepted the Mormon religion. The conflict over believing his father couldn't make it to heaven now caused him quite a lot of very real anguish. He decided he had to leave Brigham Young University and attend school elsewhere, and started seeking out anti-Mormon literature. There's always lots of debunking literature for these religions if a person is sufficiently interested in it to seek it out. I'm sure JW has just this as much, since they're almost as easy to target.

    But my point is: fear for the fate of one's loved ones is a very genuine emotion for believers. It's probably the most insidious thing about religion.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  48. #47  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    I had a Mormon friend once who had a crisis of faith when his father died without having accepted the Mormon religion. The conflict over believing his father couldn't make it to heaven now caused him quite a lot of very real anguish. He decided he had to leave Brigham Young University and attend school elsewhere, and started seeking out anti-Mormon literature. There's always lots of debunking literature for these religions if a person is sufficiently interested in it to seek it out. I'm sure JW has just this as much, since they're almost as easy to target.

    But my point is: fear for the fate of one's loved ones is a very genuine emotion for believers. It's probably the most insidious thing about religion.
    He doesn't have access to that literature, though, and I doubt he would actively seek it currently.
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  49. #48  
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    You could join Mormonism and then express concern over your father's soul because he's JW. You know, that could be really what is at the base of this. Maybe he really just wants to connect with you and show you that he cares about you in some way, and he's going on about religion as a way to do it. If so then probably he wants you to show that you care about him too. There are lots of ways to do that other than by joining a religion. Or another possibility is that he feels like he'd have more friends at the JW church if you joined and went with him. Perhaps he knows how to connect with people through that culture, but doesn't know how to do so outside of it.

    It sounds like the real problem is that you guys haven't connected. Something must have gone wrong in your relationship a long time back, and he doesn't know what to do to try and fix it back again. So he's turning to the only thing he does know.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  50. #49  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    It sounds like the real problem is that you guys haven't connected. Something must have gone wrong in your relationship a long time back, and he doesn't know what to do to try and fix it back again. So he's turning to the only thing he does know.
    Kojax, it is dangerous to read your own situation into the lives of others.
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by xLethal Vixenx View Post
    Live and let live. How hard is it to understand this? Eventually religious people will learn the error of their ways, til then... Let them live in blissful ignorance.
    That was probably possible 50 years ago and only then if you were lucky enough to be in a secular society where power and religion were separated.

    Today, as religious-based backwater regimes increasingly gain the resources to destroy millions we don't have that luxury to ignore them.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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  52. #51  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    You could join Mormonism and then express concern over your father's soul because he's JW. You know, that could be really what is at the base of this. Maybe he really just wants to connect with you and show you that he cares about you in some way, and he's going on about religion as a way to do it. If so then probably he wants you to show that you care about him too. There are lots of ways to do that other than by joining a religion. Or another possibility is that he feels like he'd have more friends at the JW church if you joined and went with him. Perhaps he knows how to connect with people through that culture, but doesn't know how to do so outside of it.

    It sounds like the real problem is that you guys haven't connected. Something must have gone wrong in your relationship a long time back, and he doesn't know what to do to try and fix it back again. So he's turning to the only thing he does know.
    He doesn't know that I don't believe in the religion he raised me in.
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