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Thread: How to introduce religion people with todays morals.

  1. #1 How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    I got a question..

    Anyone can answer, religious or atheists.

    But as you know, heavily religious people are mostly old or just to stubborn to change their way of thinking from what they are raised to think.

    Some people who are religious have still some sense, they can have ideas from their selves. And don't listen to the pope or pastor, to do exactly what they say.

    To pray during dinner breakfast or whatever, i can understand. To go to church i don't hate at all. I think those things have some good in them.

    But, is the fact that all religion are against the use of anticonceptic pills or condoms ethical? And how to convince a heavily religious mother in law that sex is different than marriage?

    more information will follow when anyone can answer this. Thanks


    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  3. #2  
    Forum Professor Zwolver's Avatar
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    nobody ?


    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  4. #3  
    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
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    It's a fundamental problem of religion. For example we can try to explain to someone that condoms are vital for fighting overpopulation and aids (it's the only realistic solution, abstantion only works for asexuals and people above 70 years of age..), and besides there is nothing unethical about a simple piece of rubber. But they would sweep away the arguments by pointing at bible texts. You can't fight dogma with arguments, all you can do is try to convince people before they get religiously brainwashed.
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  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver
    nobody ?
    Well you didn't exactly encourage those of a religious persuasion to respond, did you? Describing them as old or too stubborn. Well, you lost everyone over forty five with the first characterisation. You lost a lot more with the presumption that they are screwed up and you have the answer. [I am strong willed, you are stubborn, he is pig headed.]
    No, not exactly encouragement to participate in discussion, when it looks more like you want an argument or an opportunity to be patronising.

    Then we get to the meat of your post and we discover glaring inaccuracy. No, there are plenty of religions that approve of various methods of contraception. There are religions that do not view sex as simply a means of procreation.

    So, and this is just a guess, I suspect the lack of response is related to the double edged sword of rudeness and wrongness.

    Now I'll ask, why do you want to convince your mother in law of anything. You married her daughter, not her.
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  6. #5  
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    Your problem is that you are using a system of morality where something is "bad" if it hurts other people. Religious people usually use a system of morality where something is bad if it goes against what god wants. Often religions believe that god doesn't want you to do things even though it wouldn't actually hurt anyone. Hence christians believe that sex outside of mariage is bad in-and-of itself, simply because god says so.
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  7. #6  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Let us be clear, however, why the ancient Hebrews believed that God thought this.
    Sex outside of marriage led to children without fathers. Humans require an extended period of development, longer than any other species. Evolution handled this by encouraging pair bonding. All the Hebrews were doing was formalising, through marriage, what evolution had laready driven us towards.
    Which is just one of the reasons I get really pissed off when people discount the 'superstition' of religion and fail to look at what is going on under the surface.
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    Forum Professor Pendragon's Avatar
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    It's true that religious laws often started like normal, reasonable rules of conduct. They reflect moral rules which were perfectly acceptable at the time they were formulated (and according to the level of knowledge present at that time). But they never changed while society and science did, and are now often very unhelpful and partly superstitious. For example, as Ophiolite mentioned, prohibiting sex outside marriage to promote a healthy upbringing of children is a very reasonable rule if you don't have anticonception. But now we do, and the rule becomes unnecessary.

    This also explains what Scifor mentions: religious rules don't always seem to have the purpose of preventing the hurting of other people. These rules did in fact serve such a purpose when they were formulated, but we've solved the 'hurting' part of sex outside marriage by inventing anticonception.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Let us be clear, however, why the ancient Hebrews believed that God thought this.
    Sex outside of marriage led to children without fathers. Humans require an extended period of development, longer than any other species. Evolution handled this by encouraging pair bonding. All the Hebrews were doing was formalising, through marriage, what evolution had laready driven us towards.
    Which is just one of the reasons I get really pissed off when people discount the 'superstition' of religion and fail to look at what is going on under the surface.
    But there is a BIG difference between saying that something is unwise and saying that something is inherently sinful and bad. Perhaps at one time many religious rules had practical benefits, but that’s not the reasoning that religious people today use to justify their arbitrary rules.

    Also, there are plenty of religious rules (from many different religions) that would be very hard to rationalize as having any sort of practical benefit.
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  10. #9  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Also, there are plenty of religious rules (from many different religions) that would be very hard to rationalize as having any sort of practical benefit.
    I love a challenge. 8)
    Name three.
    Being British I shall have to rationalise them, rather than rationalize them. I hope this will be acceptable.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Name three.
    Hindus are forbidden to eat beef.
    Jews are forbidden to work on Saturday.
    Homosexuality is forbidden by Christianity.

    Being British I shall have to rationalise them, rather than rationalize them. I hope this will be acceptable.
    All right, while you analyze those three I'll go wrap some leftover tidbits in gray aluminum foil. :wink:
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    Forum Freshman .:Elusive.Neutrino:.'s Avatar
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    You can't convince a religious mother in law of something she considers to be completely unorthodox, unless your diplomacy skills are gifted beyond anything I at least have ever seen. I wonder, why is this important to you? If she has feelings that are apparently irrational, then the best strategy for everyone involved is to avoid your sex life as a conversation topic.
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  13. #12  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Hindus are forbidden to eat beef.
    Jews are forbidden to work on Saturday.
    Homosexuality is forbidden by Christianity.
    Extensive research, coupled with personal experience, supplemented by centuries of observation all support the old adage "All work and no play make Jack a dull boy".
    In short the individual, and hence the society, benefit by having periods of rest and relaxation. By requiring, through religious convention, that one day out of each week be set aside from work, this institutionalised the benefits. Moreover, by placing an emphasis on the religious aspects of the day two further benefits arose. 1) The community was brought closer together through shared worship. 2) The spiritual aspect provided a good counter balance to the physical nature of the working week, leading to better rounded personalities capable of making a more effective contribution to the community.

    Two aspects of homosexuality made it undesirable in early Hebrew society.
    The infant mortality rate meant that every potent male needed to be fathering children. Permitting homosexuality would have removed between 5% and 10% of the potential fathers, which might have tipped the balance.
    In a small community, struggling against the environment and against persecution by neighbouring states, uniformity of behaviour and belief becomes a strong driving and binding force. Permitting homosexual behaviour would have reduced this sense of unity within the Jewish community and would thus have been anti-survival.

    I am still working on the Hindu-beef issue. It appears that there is a reason, but it is not a very good one. It relates to misinterpetation of certain words in the Maharayabhat. I am researching it further.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    if we shall follow holy books, why isnt any christian selling his daughter and killing homos?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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  15. #14  
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    because of their own interpretation.. still thanks of all the response..

    no real solutions thought...
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  16. #15 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver
    But as you know, heavily religious people are mostly old or just to stubborn to change their way of thinking from what they are raised to think
    Well, Im Muslim and live in Britain. And I can tell you now I am more religious than any of my family. I was raised to be a kind person, to do good, but if I hadn't gone and done my own research about Islam I wouldn't be where I am today.

    If I didn't go by the way of life Islam instructs you to go by, then I could have 2 or 3 illegitimate children, be an alcoholic, a rapist, or the killer of true innocence(including suicide).

    Islam, like the Bible and the Torah says not to do bad things, but unlike them, Islam gives a practical solution to the problem.





    For Example:
    To avoid being raped, a woman should dress moderatly and not reveal parts of her body so explicitly.


    Another Example:
    To avoid future rapes. All rapists should be killed


    Another Example:
    To reduce the number of burglaries. All thieves should have their hands cut off





    I know what your thinking. Brutal! Well yes, but it is only brutal to the evil do'ers. And when a man knows of the severe punishments that could face him if he were to commit such crimes, then he'd think again. Imprisonment is too soft a punishment - for the future generation.

    Ask yourself this:
    What if your mother was raped, would you sentence the rapist to death or partial imprisonment? So why should it be different for anyone else?
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  17. #16  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    If I didn't go by the way of life Islam instructs you to go by, then I could have 2 or 3 illegitimate children, be an alcoholic, a rapist, or the killer of true innocence(including suicide).
    you can be it anyway, priests of all religions have dones horrible things and they follow it even more than others. Yet it happens

    To avoid being raped, a woman should dress moderatly and not reveal parts of her body so explicitly.
    to be honest i dont think thats why, i think its for men to control womans becuase arabian culture have allways been to control the woman and its the men that do blabla. if it were as you say i should be able to go and rip that of and the husband shouldnt get mad, worried ok, but not mad.

    To avoid future rapes. All rapists should be killed
    barbaric, havent muslim people developed during the last 1400 years? are you still living in the 600AD? that kind of barbaric behavior have nothing to do in our society

    To reduce the number of burglaries. All thieves should have their hands cut off
    shall we cut of your ears becuase you hear something you shouildnt hear? or cut of your leg becuase you did something wrong with it? or maybe sew(spelled?) your mouth toghater so you cant say anymore bad words. Its once again barbaric and have nothing to do in a civilized and evovled society

    I know what your thinking. Brutal! Well yes, but it is only brutal to the evil do'ers
    unless he is innecently blamed for this, happens many times you know

    nd when a man knows of the severe punishments that could face him if he were to commit such crimes, then he'd think again
    nope, stastic shows that in USA who have death penalty in some states, those states hav emore murders and serius crimes than the states wich doesnt have death penatly, so that doesnt work, its bullshit

    mprisonment is too soft a punishment - for the future generation.
    rather that than bieng barbaric, we live in a advanced society, in a advanced society there is no room for such barbaric ways and thinking.

    What if your mother was raped, would you sentence the rapist to death or partial imprisonment? So why should it be different for anyone else?
    doesnt matter, thats why we have judges who isnt effected by emotions. To prevent cruel punishments, once again a advanced society dont let the victim decied the punishment. Becuase he/she is inflected by emotions and cant therefor make rational desitions

    i know the arabian golden age ended a long time ago, but havent it really made any progress since? that those ideas have stayed so long shows it hasent. We live in a advanced society, in such no barbaric actions shall be allowed in any way
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  18. #17 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver
    But as you know, heavily religious people are mostly old or just to stubborn to change their way of thinking from what they are raised to think.
    Riiiight. Not really. In Buddhism changing one's way of thinking is acctaully part of the training. Sort of what meditation is for. I agree that some people have faith and never took the time to understand why but, heavily religious people are not like this. If you are refering to people you see on 'the hour of power' than well, I have my on opinions on those people and to make it short I have to say they are fakes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zwolver
    But, is the fact that all religion are against the use of anticonceptic pills or condoms ethical? And how to convince a heavily religious mother in law that sex is different than marriage?
    So I assume this is your main question seeing as how I saw no other questions. I am not sure why other reigions do this but, I know why buddhism would at least recomend it and I believe it would be the same for other religions. Attachment is weakness. One form of attachment is to pleasure. To be truly free you must rid yourself of this attachment. It is not that these things are not 'ethical' but more that they promote attachment. They allow you to just keep doing something that is not healthy to freeing your mind. Modern societies (mainly US) have changed so much from this idea that, sadly, it doesn't even occur to most people. Did you also notice that most of the religions advocate chastity. Marraige is more significant in some religions than others. It means nothing more than two people formally saything they want to be together forever. Most countries have turned it into some legal deal and so most people see right over it's true meaning.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  19. #18 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    uhh that was weird it made me post twice... well I edited this one out.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    Riiiight. Not really. In Buddhism changing one's way of thinking is acctaully part of the training. Sort of what meditation is for. I agree that some people have faith and never took the time to understand why but, heavily religious people are not like this. If you are refering to people you see on 'the hour of power' than well, I have my on opinions on those people and to make it short I have to say they are fakes.
    buddhist i cant say anything about, cause i have no experience about them exept seeing on tv talking jibberish about things that would kill them. But i agree on buddhism is one of the better religions
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    To avoid future rapes. All rapists should be killed
    barbaric, havent muslim people developed during the last 1400 years? are you still living in the 600AD? that kind of barbaric behavior have nothing to do in our society
    mprisonment is too soft a punishment - for the future generation.
    rather that than bieng barbaric, we live in a advanced society, in a advanced society there is no room for such barbaric ways and thinking.
    We live in a advanced society, in such no barbaric actions shall be allowed in any way
    Its once again barbaric and have nothing to do in a civilized and evovled society
    Its Barbaric in our eyes, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the World is Flat, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the Sun does not move from its spot, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. Why should we develop AWAY from the original words of God? Simply because we dont like them or believe in them? A big fault with Christianity and many other religions is their choice to adapt the wordings of God. Muslims believe the Bible and even the Torah are words from God, but they have been altered, and so the Holly Qur'an says to disregard all previous messages as everything you need to live life is in this final book (which has not had a single word changed). So in essense, feel free to develop, but do not stray from the words of God, as others have.



    I know what your thinking. Brutal! Well yes, but it is only brutal to the evil do'ers
    unless he is innecently blamed for this, happens many times you know
    Yes, innocent people can get caught up, but it is a small price to pay, such as going on a MEANINGFUL war and killing innocences on the way. I dont think true innocence goes to hellfire, do you? Heaven has many levels, I think innocence simply boosts you up a little I'd be happy to die innocent, wouldn't you?



    nd when a man knows of the severe punishments that could face him if he were to commit such crimes, then he'd think again
    nope, stastic shows that in USA who have death penalty in some states, those states hav emore murders and serius crimes than the states wich doesnt have death penatly, so that doesnt work, its bullshit
    USA is a very bad example, simply because its only taking into account one of the teachings (severe punishment). It must be used inconjunction with the other teachings. And I dont think this happens with the US's "advanced" society, which has the world highest crime rates by the way (including rape).



    What if your mother was raped, would you sentence the rapist to death or partial imprisonment? So why should it be different for anyone else?
    doesnt matter, thats why we have judges who isnt effected by emotions. To prevent cruel punishments, once again a advanced society dont let the victim decied the punishment. Becuase he/she is inflected by emotions and cant therefor make rational desitions
    Sorry I didn't mean it that way, it was a personal question to the reader. This is God's punishment for going against his wishs.
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    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Its Barbaric in our eyes, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the World is Flat, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the Sun does not move from its spot, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. Why should we develop AWAY from the original words of God? Simply because we dont like them or believe in them? A big fault with Christianity and many other religions is their choice to adapt the wordings of God. Muslims believe the Bible and even the Torah are words from God, but they have been altered, and so the Holly Qur'an says to disregard all previous messages as everything you need to live life is in this final book (which has not had a single word changed). So in essense, feel free to develop, but do not stray from the words of God, as others have.
    a loving god dont come with such things. therefor your god isnt like christian or judaism god wich prair for peace and love.
    why? becuase it has been shown to be wrong, only morrons acctly think earth is flat and sun goes around it

    Yes, innocent people can get caught up, but it is a small price to pay, such as going on a MEANINGFUL war and killing innocences on the way. I dont think true innocence goes to hellfire, do you? Heaven has many levels, I think innocence simply boosts you up a little I'd be happy to die innocent, wouldn't you?
    it is a high price to pay, how about if your brother or what ever relative you have die? is it as fun then? bet not. no i dont think it goes to hellfire, becuase there is no hellfire. me? die innocent? hell no. id rather die quilty than innocent. but i rather not die for any reason. a exemple of bad religion, makes people wanna die. dont appriciate life.

    This is God's punishment for going against his wishs
    ???
    what i know off christian/judaism god praise for love and peace. why doesnt your god do the same? why is he filled with so much hate?

    once again this shows how barbaric islam is, and such barbaric behavior have nothiing to do in modern society
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  23. #22  
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Its Barbaric in our eyes, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the World is Flat, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. We believe the Sun does not move from its spot, so lets change the wording in the Holly Qur'an. Why should we develop AWAY from the original words of God? Simply because we dont like them or believe in them? A big fault with Christianity and many other religions is their choice to adapt the wordings of God. Muslims believe the Bible and even the Torah are words from God, but they have been altered, and so the Holly Qur'an says to disregard all previous messages as everything you need to live life is in this final book (which has not had a single word changed). So in essense, feel free to develop, but do not stray from the words of God, as others have.
    a loving god dont come with such things. therefor your god isnt like christian or judaism god wich prair for peace and love.
    why? becuase it has been shown to be wrong, only morrons acctly think earth is flat and sun goes around it
    Which book says that? Well a loving God should not say that evil do'ers can mix with good people, which could in turn cause them to do bad things. If morrons think the earth is flat than your talking about the majority of the worlds population until columbus "proved" it, about 500 years ago. Its just a BIG coincedence that everything said is right, everything you've heard and more.

    Yes, innocent people can get caught up, but it is a small price to pay, such as going on a MEANINGFUL war and killing innocences on the way. I dont think true innocence goes to hellfire, do you? Heaven has many levels, I think innocence simply boosts you up a little I'd be happy to die innocent, wouldn't you?
    it is a high price to pay, how about if your brother or what ever relative you have die? is it as fun then? bet not. no i dont think it goes to hellfire, becuase there is no hellfire. me? die innocent? hell no. id rather die quilty than innocent. but i rather not die for any reason.
    Emotional Judging? we've been there lol plus there are many non-meaningful wars going on, where fellow muslim brothers are killed in. This brings me a deep pain, and to think this punishment could kill more of these innocent, it would still hurt but so much less.

    a exemple of bad religion, makes people wanna die. dont appriciate life.
    People wanna die, not because Islam tells them to, but because of their suffering (mainly caused by the west and their sanctions). And I said "I'd be happy to die innocent", not "I'd be happy to die for no reason". BTW trust me I dont wanna die, not because of fear, but because life is a gift. If in your eyes you think your something that happened because of evolution (which I believe in) and after you die then NOTHING, dont you look at yourself from a third person perspective and feel sad? Your all alone. Nothing will happen when you die. If I believed what you believed then I wouldn't be sat at a computer talking about appriciating life or even trying to convert me in 'sciencology' - what would be the point? A few more years saved from praying to God and doing as he asks? Until I die, then NOTHING. I'd NEVER be alone, it would be to lonely. Thats my opinion anyway. BTW Zelos how old are you?

    why is he filled with so much hate?
    Its not hate, it protection for his creation.
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  24. #23  
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    If morrons think the earth is flat than your talking about the majority of the worlds population until columbus "proved" it, about 500 years ago. Its just a BIG coincedence that everything said is right, everything you've heard and more.
    they are excused, didnt know better. but acctualy the greece knew it before jesus was even born that earth where round, they also calculated its radius. Today it is morrons who think earth is flat, and they are a minority

    we've been there lol plus there are many non-meaningful wars going on, where fellow muslim brothers are killed in
    caused by religion many of those wars.

    If in your eyes you think your something that happened because of evolution (which I believe in) and after you die then NOTHING, dont you look at yourself from a third person perspective and feel sad?
    no, i dont feel sad, i acctualy feel happy. Im rather sad about people beliving in things just becuase tjhey cant controll their needs

    all alone. Nothing will happen when you die. If I believed what you believed then I wouldn't be sat at a computer talking about appriciating life or even trying to convert me in 'sciencology' - what would be the point?
    i dont know about you, but there is 6 billion humans i know of, so its quite not alone. why shouldnt i appriciate life? its the only thing there is, after nothing. Point? thats how reality is.

    Its not hate, it protection for his creation.
    its hate toward humanity. He is then as i have said before a evil sadistic homocidal maniac whos biggest enjoyment is the suffering of others. i dont belive in "Tuff love" crap, never worx. only makes the child psyked

    This year i became adult according to swedish laws, the rest is up to you to figure out
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    but acctualy the greece knew it before jesus was even born that earth where round, they also calculated its radius.
    One of the civilizations to choose information to take from, and where still only talking about the roundness of the earth.

    caused by religion many of those wars.
    Religion, yes many times. Greed for money, oil, domination and power, all using religion as a cover-up, yes even more times. There isn't enough passion in this world for true religious wars, its many times, about another desire. Unfortunatly.

    all alone. Nothing will happen when you die. If I believed what you believed then I wouldn't be sat at a computer talking about appriciating life or even trying to convert me in 'sciencology' - what would be the point?
    i dont know about you, but there is 6 billion humans i know of, so its quite not alone. why shouldnt i appriciate life? its the only thing there is, after nothing. Point? thats how reality is.
    Go, appriciate life, by all means - if you dont believe in hellfire. Else appriciate life, with restrictions such as not being a rapist and blablahbalh

    Anyway, point was > you have an end (in your eyes), so why waste time talking to me?

    Its not hate, it protection for his creation.
    its hate toward humanity. He is then as i have said before a evil sadistic homocidal maniac whos biggest enjoyment is the suffering of others. i dont belive in "Tuff love" crap, never worx. only makes the child psyked
    If one of your friends was about to get hit by a car, would you push him out the way if you could, or tell him to move (which would get a late reation). Pushing him could hurt him, but it would save him from a great amount of pain (lets not say death). I hate these kinds of expressions but anyhow it is a good representation of the way you think Islam works.

    It is protection for his creation protection for us
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  26. #25 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman

    If I didn't go by the way of life Islam instructs you to go by, then I could have 2 or 3 illegitimate children, be an alcoholic, a rapist, or the killer of true innocence(including suicide).
    Asalaam ‘Alaikum:

    You are leaving youself wide open here for the equally valid claim to be made that:

    "if I went by the way of islam then I could be a suicide bomber and killed innocent men women and children I could have left my wife and children to fend for themselves, I could live in a society where women are stoned for adultry, but the man is not punished, where women are treated as sub-human and only regarded as property etc etc etc "

    The truth IS the percentage of evil people in the world is probably EQUALLY distributed among it's religions.

    England is very tolerant of other religions, to the extent that they modify their laws to accomodate other beliefs, for example when the compulsory wearing of crash-helmets for motor-cycles was introduced seiks were excluded from wearing them - name me 1, ANY muslim country that has EVER legislated in FAVOUR of foreigners?

    Islam as you well know preaches tolerance of others - go back and read again the pages see the error of your ways.
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  27. #26 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman

    If I didn't go by the way of life Islam instructs you to go by, then I could have 2 or 3 illegitimate children, be an alcoholic, a rapist, or the killer of true innocence(including suicide).
    You are leaving youself wide open here for the equally valid claim to be made that:

    "if I went by the way of islam then I could be a suicide bomber and killed innocent men women and children I could have left my wife and children to fend for themselves, I could live in a society where women are stoned for adultry, but the man is not punished, where women are treated as sub-human and only regarded as property etc etc etc "
    Well, firstly I was talking about myself, but it could be taken by anyone really, depending on the society they are exposed to. BTW I said true innocence, there is a very large difference (in my eyes that is).

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    where women are treated as sub-human and only regarded as property
    I am pretty sick of people repeating this kind of statement, even though it should not be the case similar to some of the extremeties that occur around the world. Your society isn't much different though, if not worse. Forcing women to wear short skirts and small top or feel inadequite - which then leads to rape, and other crimes.
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    Back to the main question, if there really was one:
    How to introduce religion to people with todays morals.

    Well how does Islam deal with Atheists? Well Islam likes them

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyboXCIVJY0

    its not long, but skip to the 4th minute - watching until the end is prefered :P

    BTW the accent might be quite strong for your taste, lol but its good stuff, trust.

    It begins to talk about some of the scientific facts that can be found in the Holly Qur'an.
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  29. #28 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman

    Your society isn't much different though, if not worse. Forcing women to wear short skirts and small top or feel inadequite - .
    So tell me why the girls go to night clubs in groups wearing the skimpiest of clothing and leaving with the guys?

    I would refer you to verses 7:26 24:31 and 33:59 in the Quran
    These are the three dress codes for women

    7:26 BEST Dress (to be worn outside)
    24:31 BREASTS (to be covered outside)
    33:59 Length (not too short)

    This is the dress code paraphrased for Muslim women.

    Surely you must see that if they were embarrased or did not want to wear these they would either wear their long coats to hide themselves or stay in some dark alleyway until it is time to go home!

    You sound very much as though these things have been taught to you by your imam. If this is true you would do well to think for youself or at least question him, otherwise he will have power over you and you will forever remain one of his puppets. NO MAN IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER!

    "You should show courtesy and be cordial with each other, so that nobody should consider himself superior to another nor do him harm."
    Riyadh-us-Saleheen. Hadith 602.


    I do NOT believe you are a true muslim IF you were you would have responded to my salutation "Asalaam ‘Alaikum:" I believe you are a mischeivious individual and that (on this topic) you should be ignored.
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  30. #29  
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    so why waste time talking to me
    cause i find it fun

    If one of your friends was about to get hit by a car, would you push him out the way if you could, or tell him to move (which would get a late reation). Pushing him could hurt him, but it would save him from a great amount of pain (lets not say death). I hate these kinds of expressions but anyhow it is a good representation of the way you think Islam works.
    i would tell him to watch out, but not push him. cause then i could get hurt

    . Forcing women to wear short skirts and small top or feel inadequite - which then leads to rape, and other crimes.
    there is no forcing, they choose. only morrons say we force it. The oinly part here who forces woman to wear anything, is islam

    Well how does Islam deal with Atheists? Well Islam likes them
    i dont belive you until terrorism stops

    also that dress you muslims force on womans are just awefull
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  31. #30  
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    I'm sorry I am not sure how the point he was trying to make has anything to do with terrorism.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  32. #31 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    Forum Freshman jagoman's Avatar
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    Walaycomsalaam -

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    I do NOT believe you are a true muslim IF you were you would have responded to my salutation "Asalaam ‘Alaikum:" I believe you are a mischeivious individual and that (on this topic) you should be ignored.
    Well billco, im not used to seeing "Asalaam ‘Alaikum" in english in that way, and i dont read words letter by letter, its pretty much word recognition. Your quick judgement that I'm not a true muslim simply verifys my personal opinion that the majority of muslims mistaken prejudgements lead to conflict within the religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Surely you must see that if they were embarrased or did not want to wear these they would either wear their long coats to hide themselves or stay in some dark alleyway until it is time to go home!
    Some like it, some feel they are forced to, or feel inadequate - the hurt themselves, cuttings wrists, suicide, etc. This is not simply facts from books. I've been to University, living in a large house with 13 of them for 3 years. They go out wearing little, or they loss friends and feel left out, so simply but can do so much damage. Its just one example of my own experience. As for the muslim world, misconception is the flaw (in my opinion).

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    You sound very much as though these things have been taught to you by your imam. If this is true you would do well to think for youself or at least question him, otherwise he will have power over you and you will forever remain one of his puppets. NO MAN IS SUPERIOR TO ANOTHER!
    Nope, I listen to my Imam, only as he speaks to everyone. I take that statement very serious "No man is superior to another", so I only respect others but try to think for myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelos
    If one of your friends was about to get hit by a car, would you push him out the way if you could, or tell him to move (which would get a late reation). Pushing him could hurt him, but it would save him from a great amount of pain (lets not say death). I hate these kinds of expressions but anyhow it is a good representation of the way you think Islam works.
    i would tell him to watch out, but not push him. cause then i could get hurt
    cause you could get hurt! lol from the car or from the fall? lol nevermind, you'll jus come up with some other excuse lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by zelos
    Well how does Islam deal with Atheists? Well Islam likes them
    i dont belive you until terrorism stops
    you didn't video, did you? No matter then.
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    if islam dealed good with atheists and others we wouldnt have terrorists, like usama bin ladin, and those.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    if islam dealed good with atheists and others we wouldnt have terrorists, like usama bin ladin, and those.
    You still haven't seen the video. Its only saying it prefers atheists to christians, jews and others. Islam doesn't say atheists will be dealt in a kind way, quite the opposite.

    BTW many of Osama bin laden's acts are acts of revenge, which you could most definately say the west started, in order to gain its strengths and powers that it has today. Of which are used against muslim countries and people, using money and "friendship" with the greedy arab leaders to gain their support and backing. All of which has been predicted in the Holly Qur'an. Traitors and misguided people rule the wealth of the muslim world.
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    which you could most definately say the west started
    no i dont agree on that

    in order to gain its strengths and powers that it has today
    no, we gained it becuase we let our scientsits not be effected by religion. muslim world had its golden age. and you wasted it by letting your advancement comming to a end and stayed there where those stopped. West has, if you ask me, its golden age now.

    Of which are used against muslim countries and people
    because of terrorism

    All of which has been predicted in the Holly Qur'an
    Traitors and misguided people rule the wealth of the muslim world.
    TO VAGUE. you cant say it predicted it if it doesnt speceficly says USA, Europe, britatin, france, etc. That have happened before.

    misguided my ass
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    which you could most definately say the west started
    no i dont agree on that
    Your opinion, wrong, but your opinion.

    we let our scientsits not be effected by religion
    You cant really use that excuse, religious people aren't consumed by their religion, they have enough time to do what ever they need. And Islam promotes development, so they weren't restricted by guidence.

    Of which are used against muslim countries and people
    because of terrorism
    Exactly, because of the terrorist acts of the West against these muslim countries and people, which provoke acts of revenge, whcih results in more confilt (both sides). Which ever side your on, there are terrorist acts from both sides, i do agree somewhat - its just the instigation that is needed to be looked at.


    All of which has been predicted in the Holly Qur'an
    Traitors and misguided people rule the wealth of the muslim world.
    TO VAGUE. you cant say it predicted it if it doesnt speceficly says USA, Europe, britatin, france, etc. That have happened before.

    misguided my ass
    Have you looked at the wordings? no dont think so, so why say its vague?
    I'm gonna watch the miracles of the Qur'an video again myself, and i'll note down a few FACTS given by the Qur'an - ONLY proven by todays technologies. Then you can use the word 'coincidence' again
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    To call it facts stated by it i demand atleast 80% accuracy in wording
    else its vague

    Your opinion, wrong, but your opinion.
    Your opinion, wrong, but your opinion.

    religious people aren't consumed by their religion
    wonder why your golden age ended

    Exactly, because of the terrorist acts of the West against these muslim countries and people, which provoke acts of revenge, whcih results in more confilt (both sides).
    uh? west havent done much against muslim world for the last 100 years what i know off, while they have done alot against us the last 5 years.

    Have you looked at the wordings
    looked at your wording
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  38. #37  
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    I don't want to insult you, but I don't understand you...

    You argue like some kids from kindegarden:

    "You started it..." - "No, you started it!!!"
    "Youre wrong!" - "No, you're wrong!!!" etc...

    I don't get people who keep fighting with no
    reason... So advice for both of you: Grow up. It will ease things a lot.
    Machina multa minax minitatur maxima muris

    Carminis Iliaci libros consumpsit asellus. O Fatum Troiae! Aut ecus aut asinus!

    Vita regit Fortuna, non sapientia!
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    uh? west havent done much against muslim world for the last 100 years what i know off, while they have done alot against us the last 5 years.
    You appear to be ignoring the little matter of the installation of and military support for Israel, for over half a century.

    One could name half a dozen other major aspects of Western interference, exploitation, manipulation and invasion of Muslim nations spread across the last century. Ignorance of this in much of the West is yet another reason the feeling of many Muslims run so high.
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    You appear to be ignoring the little matter of the installation of and military support for Israel, for over half a century.
    i guess this is becuase of someone named hitler? but this isnt wrong if you ask me

    okey maybe we have, i have something to tell. im not very good in history
    and to be honest, i dont give a crap about it either. No matter what we have done in the past cant be so bad as the terrorism is, or am i wrong? i bet someone is going to tell me im wrong and give me a exemple, will it be you Ophiolite?

    But its still no excuse to do terrorism. We have done wrong things, muslim wolrd have done wrong things, they are doing wrong things. We are also doing wrong things. But if someone hits you its wrong, and its equaly wrong to hit back
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    You appear to be ignoring the little matter of the installation of and military support for Israel, for over half a century.
    i guess this is becuase of someone named hitler? but this isnt wrong if you ask me
    Later you say you know very little history, and care for it even less. I think this is something we can agree on.

    The intention to install a Jewish homeland in the Middle East predates Hitler. The British, who controlled Palestine in the early decades of the last century, made a commitment to do so, which was enshrined in the Balfour Declaration, at the end of the First World War. One has to question the justice of promising a people the right to take over a land that has been populated by another group for centuries.
    Britain then reneged on this promise, but the US gave it strong support, so that Israel was established in 1948, in blood and violence. Might there not be a touch of justification for the Arabs to feel they have been sorely treated by the west.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    But its still no excuse to do terrorism.
    Please do not introduce this strawman argument. Nowhere have I said anything justifies terrorism. I have challenged your claim that "we haven't done much against the Muslim world in the last 100 years or so." The example of displacing the Palestinians to set up the state of Israel is one such example. Invading Iraq twice; supporting a despotic regime in Iran; attempting to assassinate the Libyan leader; carrying out atrocities on civilians in the Algerian war; using defeated Japanese military to suppress and control the Indonesians after World War II, until the Dutch could resume controlthe the list goes on.
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    1: doubble post
    2: thank you for telling me this. allways fun to know a bit more.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I am still working on the Hindu-beef issue. It appears that there is a reason, but it is not a very good one. It relates to misinterpetation of certain words in the Maharayabhat. I am researching it further.
    The cow is a revered animal because it has the status of mother.
    Her status is due to the fact that her milk is especially good for humankind.
    It is seen as barbaric or inhuman to to kill ones mother.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eternal
    You argue like some kids from kindegarden
    LOL well Zelos likes to argue, thats his reason for being on this forum (or maybe for living, am i right? :P) Anyhow we've strayed from the question again. BTW thanks Ophiolite for the examples, saved me some typing time - and great response to the information he had given you Zelos.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    barbaric or inhuman to to kill ones mother
    What if this cow was the only possible food for days? would you not kill it - in order to eat it, of course?

    I'll get bak to u Zelos, too busy :P your an interesting chat - just to see how an athiest really thinks
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    arabina calander is about 1400 or 1500 yes?
    as ive seen it also the culture is at that time
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    barbaric or inhuman to to kill ones mother
    What if this cow was the only possible food for days? would you not kill it - in order to eat it, of course?
    It would depend on the person. For some, going without food for several days is a small price to pay.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    The cow is a revered animal because it has the status of mother.
    Her status is due to the fact that her milk is especially good for humankind.
    It is seen as barbaric or inhuman to to kill ones mother.
    This falls short on three grounds
    1. It is simplistic.
    2. It is conventional.
    3. It utterly fails to address my commitment to scifor refugee to provide a scientific justification for every bizarre religious admonition.
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    Ophiolite,

    Quote Originally Posted by JAN
    The cow is a revered animal because it has the status of mother.
    Her status is due to the fact that her milk is especially good for humankind.
    It is seen as barbaric or inhuman to to kill ones mother.
    This falls short on three grounds
    1. It is simplistic.
    2. It is conventional.
    3. It utterly fails to address my commitment to scifor refugee to provide a scientific justification for every bizarre religious admonition.
    LOL!

    1) It is no more or less simplistic than your explanation of the other points you gave explanation to. (Jews are forbidden to work on Saturday.
    Homosexuality is forbidden by Christianity. )

    2) Its common sense, cows are more useful alive than dead.
    It provides milk for babies and grown- ups alike: it ploughs fields for cultivating food: its urine has medicinal properties and the dung is used as manure for crop growth as well as to light village fires. The smoke that emanates from it kills mosquitoes and other disease-carrying germs.

    3) But it totally addresses my commitment to you to provide some information as to why Hindus don't eat beef.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    It would depend on the person. For some, going without food for several days is a small price to pay.
    So what if the situation was that you were told to eat a cow OR another cow will be killed? If you ate the cow, the other one wouldn't die - therefore saving a cows life by eating another.

    BTW I also have a hindu friend, one of the things he has done to confuss me about your religion, is that he doesn't eat halal meat (i.e. meat from animals killed in the name of "my" God), although he eats any other type. What confuses me is that if he didn't believe in "my" God then there should be no problem for him. At least say a little prayer before consuming it, but no - and by the way, thats about as religious as he gets LOL


    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    2) Its common sense, cows are more useful alive than dead.
    It provides milk for babies and grown- ups alike: it ploughs fields for cultivating food: its urine has medicinal properties and the dung is used as manure for crop growth as well as to light village fires. The smoke that emanates from it kills mosquitoes and other disease-carrying germs.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more cattle (cow) on this earth than there are humans. So isn't this a perfect source of food for us (the humans). Cows can reproduce remember, so they can give us the benifits of both being alive and in our stomachs (not at the same time of course :P)

    BTW I dont think its as a ligitamate reason as the forbidding of homosexuality - it is totally against human nature, and threatens continuing survival.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more cattle (cow) on this earth than there are humans.
    You are wrong.
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  51. #50 Re: How to introduce religion people with todays morals. 
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    Sorry, I can't come on to often so I am a little slow responding.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    For Example:
    To avoid being raped, a woman should dress moderatly and not reveal parts of her body so explicitly.
    It is good advise but, I think women can think for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Another Example:
    To avoid future rapes. All rapists should be killed
    There is nothing that justifies killing someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Another Example:
    To reduce the number of burglaries. All thieves should have their hands cut off
    Or you could take them into your home and teach them proper manners and how to get a job. Although, I suppose cutting off there fingers might work too. To me this does nothing but anger them more. You cannot force an idea on someone, even through such tortures as cutting off their fingers. They would likely become even more corrupt even if they are disabled.




    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    I know what your thinking. Brutal! Well yes, but it is only brutal to the evil do'ers. And when a man knows of the severe punishments that could face him if he were to commit such crimes, then he'd think again. Imprisonment is too soft a punishment - for the future generation.
    I do agree that modern and or future generations are getting it 'easy'. There seems to be a trend going around that breaking the law is somehow cool. I guess that these people don't realize that the law was made by others just like them and (at least in the USA) they too have a voice.

    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Ask yourself this:
    What if your mother was raped, would you sentence the rapist to death or partial imprisonment? So why should it be different for anyone else?
    no comment.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    It would depend on the person. For some, going without food for several days is a small price to pay.

    So what if the situation was that you were told to eat a cow OR another cow will be killed? If you ate the cow, the other one wouldn't die - therefore saving a cows life by eating another.
    Would I be the cause of the cows death because I didn't eat the other cow? That is the question.

    BTW I also have a hindu friend, one of the things he has done to confuss me about your religion, is that he doesn't eat halal meat (i.e. meat from animals killed in the name of "my" God), although he eats any other type.
    Because your friend is a hindu, it doesn't necessarily make him a practioner of 'hinduism', or more accurately sanatana dharma. Maybe you should ask him what it is he actually believes.

    What confuses me is that if he didn't believe in "my" God then there should be no problem for him. At least say a little prayer before consuming it, but no - and by the way, thats about as religious as he gets LOL
    If I was a meat-eater, I would be more inclined to eat halal meat, than non halal. Do you know anything about the process of halal?

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are more cattle (cow) on this earth than there are humans.
    I wouldn't have thought so, plus 'the brain of Scotland' has slapped a firm "you're wrong" sticker on it.

    So isn't this a perfect source of food for us (the humans). Cows can reproduce remember, so they can give us the benifits of both being alive and in our stomachs (not at the same time of course :P)
    If cows were allowed to die naturally, then this would be a reasonable option, but unfortunately they are being reared and slaughtered needlessly, for greed. This is said to have a bad effect on the world.

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    If I was a meat-eater
    You are a vegitarian? May i ask why you go against your own bodies design?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    If I was a meat-eater
    You are a vegitarian? May i ask why you go against your own bodies design?
    I don't understand your point?

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    Human dentition, salivatory processes, digestive tract architecture, intestinal biochemical processes and microbiological environment, are all conditioned for the consumption of meat and vegetables. Man is an omnivore. Why have you chosen to reject this heritage?

    I mean if God designed man, then He designed him as a meat eater. Isn't it rather disrespectful to Him to reject His clear intentions?
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    This thread has gone from talking about how to introduce religion to people with today's morals, to arbitrary religious rules, to the rule that Hindu's can't eat beef, to vegetarianism... I can't help but think we're getting a little off topic.

    As far as I can tell religion isn't just about following rules. If that was true, I'd probably follow Immanuel Kant instead of Jesus Christ, and if I saw a more attractive philosophy I'd probably switch to that one. Christianity is about cultivating a personal relationship with a living God. The rules, the Bible, and everything else is secondary. It's this relationship that guides one's actions.

    The rules are what people have interpretted from their relationship with God, and yes, humans have a knack for messing things up. Homosexuality and capital punishment are always going to be dividers between people. It's no different with Christianity and that's why we have so many denominations. They run the gamut from ultra-conservative to ultra-liberal. I don't think it's fair to set up the ultra-conservative fundamentalist position then shoot it down. It's not representative of mainstream Christianity today.

    So to answer the question of how to introduce religion to people with today's morals, I would say just appeal to their common sense of right and wrong. God speaks to us through our consciences, and religious or not that's always going to be there.
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    Plants are just as much a form of life as an animal is. Humans (as far as I can tell) are the only species that differ from plants and animals.

    That being said, I see no reason why eating meat is bad. I personally do not recomend it often but I see no reason for it to be 'bad'. Maybe if we were more respectful to tha animal and used more of it instead of being so wasteful it would be better. Then again we are just as wasteful if not more with plants. That's how I see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    If I was a meat-eater
    You are a vegitarian? May i ask why you go against your own bodies design?
    I don't understand your point?

    Jan.
    Ophiolite,

    I mean if God designed man, then He designed him as a meat eater. Isn't it rather disrespectful to Him to reject His clear intentions?
    By that same logic it is also designed to be vegetarian.
    Duh!
    Anyhow, what does it matter to either of you, do you believe in God?

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    Lucid,

    Christianity is about cultivating a personal relationship with a living God.
    What revealed relgion isn't?
    Do you believe Christianity is the only true religion, and if yes, what do you think of the other religions?

    The rules, the Bible, and everything else is secondary. It's this relationship that guides one's actions.
    What do you think to the discourse between Krishna and Arjuna, in the Bhagavad Gita?

    So to answer the question of how to introduce religion to people with today's morals, I would say just appeal to their common sense of right and wrong. God speaks to us through our consciences, and religious or not that's always going to be there.
    That makes alot of sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB
    Plants are just as much a form of life as an animal is. Humans (as far as I can tell) are the only species that differ from plants and animals.

    That being said, I see no reason why eating meat is bad. I personally do not recomend it often but I see no reason for it to be 'bad'. Maybe if we were more respectful to tha animal and used more of it instead of being so wasteful it would be better. Then again we are just as wasteful if not more with plants. That's how I see it.
    Why do assume meat-eating is bad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Christianity is about cultivating a personal relationship with a living God.
    What revealed religion isn't?
    I speak from the perspective of Christianity because it's what I understand best. I'm just trying to prevent people from making the mistake of thinking religions are just some sets of rules to follow, and that appears to be where this thread has gone.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Do you believe Christianity is the only true religion, and if yes, what do you think of the other religions?
    Haha, for the last year or so I most closely associated myself to agnostics in large part because of this question. You pressed the right button, but I'll share with you what I think. First of all, if God created the universe, he's impossibly far above and beyond any attempts of my own to put limits on his truth. I heard a good analogy: it's like an ant trying to jump for the moon. The ant might jump really high and get closer to the moon than any other ant has ever been, but the ant can't possible know how far away it is. I liken us to the ants. Who are we to say what God is and isn't?

    You asked if I believe Christianity is the only true religion, and I don't, but I also believe that pluralism (belief that all religions are equally true) is insulting to the truth put forth by various religions. This is how I think of it when it comes to Heaven, Hell and the role of Jesus:

    In the B.C. years, the Jews used to put their sins unto animals and sacrifice the animals in temples. But when the Romans came along and destroyed their temples, they were left to their own devices. They made all these rules about how to live perfect lives so they would be allowed into Heaven. I believe Jesus came along not to provide a bridge to Heaven where previously there hadn't been one, but to tell the Jews about the bridge that already existed. He came to tell them their sins were already forgiven and they didn't need to live perfect lives.

    So this means God must have already had some deal in place with humanity before Jesus. It wouldn't make sense for all people between Adam and Jesus to simply go to Hell because there was no way for them to reach Heaven by good works. Whatever this deal was, I believe it's still available to everybody today. I think it's a lot safer to believe in Jesus to be confident about your salvation, but the truth is that we really don't know what happens to non-believers. The New Testament has surprisingly little to say about Heaven and Hell, and the Old Testament has almost nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    What do you think to the discourse between Krishna and Arjuna, in the Bhagavad Gita?
    I think that's the one where Krishna is introducing the concepts of Hinduism to Arjuna on a battlefield? I'm not sure exactly what the question is, but I think you're raising a question about whether or not a religion can lay claim to truth. And to that, I'd just say again that the God of the Universe is too far above our puny attempts to add or detract.
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    You asked if I believe Christianity is the only true religion, and I don't, but I also believe that pluralism (belief that all religions are equally true) is insulting to the truth put forth by various religions. This is how I think of it when it comes to Heaven, Hell and the role of Jesus:

    I suppose it comes down to what do you regard as religion, and why religion exists.

    I think it's a lot safer to believe in Jesus to be confident about your salvation, but the truth is that we really don't know what happens to non-believers. The New Testament has surprisingly little to say about Heaven and Hell, and the Old Testament has almost nothing.
    Do you think religion is a way to a better life, or a way to a life of ultimate knowlege and understanding?

    I think that's the one where Krishna is introducing the concepts of Hinduism to Arjuna on a battlefield? I'm not sure exactly what the question is, but I think you're raising a question about whether or not a religion can lay claim to truth. And to that, I'd just say again that the God of the Universe is too far above our puny attempts to add or detract.
    So, what is truth and what is God, in your opinion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    [By that same logic it is also designed to be vegetarian.
    Duh!
    Anyhow, what does it matter to either of you, do you believe in God?
    I see you are back to your old, disreputable tricks, of failing to answer questions, by distracting other with a new set of questions of your own.
    Point 1:Being a meat eater, as a human, does not refer exclusively to meat eating. Being a vegatarian does refer to exlcusively eating vegetables and fruits and avoiding meats.
    As omnivores our ideal diet is a mix of meat and vegetables. Not one, or the other.
    Point 2: So, once again, do you not consider it insulting to God go against His design intentions?
    If not, why not?
    When you have satisfactorily answered these questions I shall be happy to answer yours.
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    Ophiolite,

    I see you are back to your old, disreputable tricks, of failing to answer questions, by distracting other with a new set of questions of your own.
    LOL!
    As usual (in some cases), your question is either irrelevant, devicive, non-contextual, or born out of an ignorance.

    "If God designed man, then He designed him as a meat eater. Isn't it rather disrespectful to Him to reject His clear intentions?"

    If God designed man, he designed him as a vegetarian also, it is fair to say that if God designed man then he designed him to understand that he has a choice. The only disrespect that could possibly be levelled at God, is if man purposefully did not use his ability to choose, and just ate whatever shite was presented in front of him.

    Just out of interest, define what you mean by God in that question.

    Point 1:Being a meat eater, as a human, does not refer exclusively to meat eating. Being a vegatarian does refer to exlcusively eating vegetables and fruits and avoiding meats.
    Being a meat eater refers to eating flesh and blood regardless of whether he eats anything else. Being vegetarian means you do not eat animal flesh, although some may eat fish, and eggs.

    As omnivores our ideal diet is a mix of meat and vegetables. Not one, or the other.
    You mean an ideal diet, millions of people on this planet do not eat flesh.
    I wouldn't be surprised if vegetarians were generally, on the whole, healthier than their carnivorous counterparts.

    When you have satisfactorily answered these questions I shall be happy to answer yours.
    To sum up. As long as you eat to sustain the bodily functions without needlessly slaughtering animals in the process, there is no disrespect to God.

    Now then, answer my questions.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Do you think religion is a way to a better life, or a way to a life of ultimate knowlege and understanding?
    If I said religion was a way to ultimate knowledge and understanding, that would be saying that religion is a way to be God. I understand that Hinduism and Buddhism do exactly that, and, not being anything even close to God, that's why I'm not Hindu or Buddhist. I do think that religion is a way to have a better life, but that's not the purpose. The purpose is to draw closer to God, then life and everything else just seems to work itself out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    So, what is truth and what is God, in your opinion?
    I can't believe I'm actually going to use something from English class... Let's take the statement "God is good." If good is a predicate adjective, good is a word that describes God. But if good is a predicate nominative, that's saying that God is goodness itself. I believe that God is the predicate nominative of the qualities we consider noble. To answer your question, I think God is Truth (with a capital T). Whatever Truth is, that's God. Whenever you recognize Good, that's also God. It's insulting for anybody to try to stake a claim to Truth and Good. God is bigger than any of that.
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    If I said religion was a way to ultimate knowledge and understanding, that would be saying that religion is a way to be God.
    Or a way to God?

    I understand that Hinduism and Buddhism do exactly that, and, not being anything even close to God, that's why I'm not Hindu or Buddhist.
    That is not correct, Hinduism is an umbrella for different systems of religion, it is the face of sanatan dharma, which roughly translated means the eternal relgion, or the eternal occupation of the soul.
    Buddhism is an atheist way of life, the buddhists do not believe in God what to speak of trying to become God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    If I said religion was a way to ultimate knowledge and understanding, that would be saying that religion is a way to be God.
    Or a way to God?
    A common definition of God is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (always present), and omnipotent (all-powerful). What I meant was that if I strive to have these qualities myself, I'm striving to fulfill the attributes of God. I don't think that's the same as saying religion is a way to God. For instance, when I go to the ocean I don't become the ocean. The ocean is still distinct from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Hinduism is an umbrella for different systems of religion.
    You're right about that. There are some sects of Hinduism that recognize God as apart from oneself, and there are others that don't, so I should have made that distinction in my last post.

    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Buddhism is an atheist way of life, the buddhists do not believe in God what to speak of trying to become God.
    As for Buddhism, it's a religion that requires self effort to reach the next stage of consciousness until eventually you reach the ultimate level, nirvana. Even if they don't believe in any gods themselves, the concept that you're trying to fulfill the attributes of God remains the same.

    You seem attracted to the Eastern philosophies. What's your religion background?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan ardena
    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB
    Plants are just as much a form of life as an animal is. Humans (as far as I can tell) are the only species that differ from plants and animals.

    That being said, I see no reason why eating meat is bad. I personally do not recomend it often but I see no reason for it to be 'bad'. Maybe if we were more respectful to tha animal and used more of it instead of being so wasteful it would be better. Then again we are just as wasteful if not more with plants. That's how I see it.
    Why do assume meat-eating is bad?

    Jan.
    Quote Originally Posted by I
    That being said, I see no reason why eating meat is bad...I see no reason for it to be 'bad'
    Does this answer your question?
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    Lucid,

    A common definition of God is omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (always present), and omnipotent (all-powerful). What I meant was that if I strive to have these qualities myself, I'm striving to fulfill the attributes of God.
    The definition describes some qualities of God, not that that is God.
    We individuals (jivatma) are described as having the same qualities of God, but only in minute proportions, (braman/param-brahman).

    I don't think that's the same as saying religion is a way to God. For instance, when I go to the ocean I don't become the ocean. The ocean is still distinct from me.
    The point of religion is to awaken those qualities within the individual living entity, and in this way you can realise what and who is God.
    If you take a teaspoonful of water out of the ocean, it still contains the quality of the whole ocean of water, but is nowhere near the quantity. This is our position in relation to God.

    As for Buddhism, it's a religion that requires self effort to reach the next stage of consciousness until eventually you reach the ultimate level, nirvana.
    All bona-fide religions do, that is the whole point of religion.
    The buddhists ultimately want to experience bliss by merging into everything. They desire to lose all desires and break away from the wheel of birth and death.

    Even if they don't believe in any gods themselves, the concept that you're trying to fulfill the attributes of God remains the same.


    You seem attracted to the Eastern philosophies. What's your religion background?
    I didn't really have a religion background, life suddenly upped and kicked me in the ass forcing me to look at base reality. I found eastern philosophy easy to understand, because it is basically untouched by highly educated arseholes, who have trouble seeing the forest because of them damn trees. I was then able to look at all religious faiths with some level of clarity and unbiasness.

    What is yours?

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    The chance of any religion bieng right, is less than the chance of all of them bieng wrong
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    The chance of any religion bieng right, is less than the chance of all of them bieng wrong
    How do you know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    The chance of any religion bieng right, is less than the chance of all of them bieng wrong
    Your opinion. But, the main religions on the earth (in my opinion) are Islam, Christianity, and Judisum. All of them are correct (again from my percpective not yours), the messages (or some of) within the Bible, Torah, and Holly Qur'an are all from the words of God. BUT, and I mean a BIG 'BUT' it is FACT that the words of the Bible and the torah have been altered throughout time, which is why these 'words of God' are said to be disregarded, and to only follow by God's final guidance to man, The Holly Qur'an. Of which the words have not been altered, since its introduction.

    The book is a miracle in itself.
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    Jagoman proves my point partly.

    Why i can say that is there have come up with over 100 differen religions throu time. and the fact they are popping up like unwanted plants shows that they are less likly to be true since if one were true it would just pop up one and that would spread and be the only one.

    Logic

    Your opinion. But, the main religions on the earth (in my opinion) are Islam, Christianity, and Judisum. All of them are correct (again from my percpective not yours), the messages (or some of) within the Bible, Torah, and Holly Qur'an are all from the words of God. BUT, and I mean a BIG 'BUT' it is FACT that the words of the Bible and the torah have been altered throughout time, which is why these 'words of God' are said to be disregarded, and to only follow by God's final guidance to man, The Holly Qur'an. Of which the words have not been altered, since its introduction.
    thats alot of bullshit. Thoran/Bible/Quaran have been altered throu time. since no coping is perfect. quaran is no better than the bible or thora
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Jagoman proves my point partly.

    Why i can say that is there have come up with over 100 differen religions throu time. and the fact they are popping up like unwanted plants shows that they are less likly to be true since if one were true it would just pop up one and that would spread and be the only one.

    Logic

    Your opinion. But, the main religions on the earth (in my opinion) are Islam, Christianity, and Judisum. All of them are correct (again from my percpective not yours), the messages (or some of) within the Bible, Torah, and Holly Qur'an are all from the words of God. BUT, and I mean a BIG 'BUT' it is FACT that the words of the Bible and the torah have been altered throughout time, which is why these 'words of God' are said to be disregarded, and to only follow by God's final guidance to man, The Holly Qur'an. Of which the words have not been altered, since its introduction.
    thats alot of bullshit. Thoran/Bible/Quaran have been altered throu time. since no coping is perfect. quaran is no better than the bible or thora
    Well it is actually hard to believe that the words haven't been changed for 1400 years, but it is fact. Can't say much more about that really.
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    oh really? well then send me a book made today and another one made in 600AD, not a copy of it, but the original itself. if you dont have the original you cant say it hasent changed
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    oh really? well then send me a book made today and another one made in 600AD, not a copy of it, but the original itself. if you dont have the original you cant say it hasent changed
    Well if there were a billion copies of the book worldwide (today) and all are word for word exactly the same, it shows it has maintained at least some originality. But original copies do still exist. Anyhow if it were to have been altered, it would have shown many inconsistencies in the words, and even if it were written only 500 years ago, some of the details about life and science could not have been proven without the technologies of the 19th-20th century.
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    Well if there were a billion copies of the book worldwide (today) and all are word for word exactly the same, it shows it has maintained at least some originality. But original copies do still exist. Anyhow if it were to have been altered, it would have shown many inconsistencies in the words, and even if it were written only 500 years ago, some of the details about life and science could not have been proven without the technologies of the 19th-20th century.
    since its been so many copies its impossible they are all the same. error is invedible.

    some of the details about life and science could not have been proven without the technologies of the 19th-20th century
    days and such? done before. take something that have had to be proven today that cant be intepritated in anymore than 1 way. and i want a quote from the book with it aswell
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    Well if there were a billion copies of the book worldwide (today) and all are word for word exactly the same, it shows it has maintained at least some originality. But original copies do still exist. Anyhow if it were to have been altered, it would have shown many inconsistencies in the words, and even if it were written only 500 years ago, some of the details about life and science could not have been proven without the technologies of the 19th-20th century.
    since its been so many copies its impossible they are all the same. error is invedible.
    Error is only inevitable if it was ment to be inevitable. But it wasn't this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    some of the details about life and science could not have been proven without the technologies of the 19th-20th century
    days and such? done before. take something that have had to be proven today that cant be intepritated in anymore than 1 way. and i want a quote from the book with it aswell
    No problem Zelos, just been pre-occupied with other stuff :P but I will give you a short list of facts from that video I kept talking about. btw that days thing was just a puff in the air compared to what the Qur'an beholds.
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    But, is the fact that all religion are against the use of anticonceptic pills or condoms ethical? And how to convince a heavily religious mother in law that sex is different than marriage?
    Sex is a baby making process, why have sex if you do not want the baby?
    And what about all those sexual transmitted diseases that can affect those people who have sex outside of marriage?

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    Can any of you religious guys/gals answer me two questions?

    1) Why does God keep ALL the most religious countries in the world as the poorest, most hardworking,backward, highest infant mortality etc etc ?

    2) Why is there dust on rocks on moons orbiting planets around stars in other galaxies?

    Quote Originally Posted by Effervescent
    [[color=blue]Sex is a baby making process, why have sex if you do not want the baby?
    And what about all those sexual transmitted diseases that can affect those people who have sex outside of marriage?
    We have sex without babies, to practice it, to refine it to such an art that when we desire a child we can be sure we know how to achieve it and that we will, with consumate accuracy. It is like learning to write, it must be practised in order to be perfected.

    As for your reference to STD Most of the clinics in the world reside in third world religious countries. I understand that such diseases are transmitted via multiple relationships, muslims allow a man to take more than one wife 'so long as he can support them all'[Quran]

    If you believe that STD was created by God to punish infidelity could you enlighten me as to his/her/it's reason(s) for creating the common cold? Was it perhaps to discourage people from talking amongst themselves and discovering that God might not exist? [ paradox intended].
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    We have sex without babies, to practice it, to refine it to such an art that when we desire a child we can be sure we know how to achieve it and that we will, with consumate accuracy. It is like learning to write, it must be practised in order to be perfected.
    Why would you need to "perfect" something like that?

    If you believe that STD was created by God to punish infidelity could you enlighten me as to his/her/it's reason(s) for creating the common cold? Was it perhaps to discourage people from talking amongst themselves and discovering that God might not exist? [ paradox intended].
    I don't believe STD was created by God as punishment. Typically all sins have consequences. He did make these laws only for protection for us not just to lord his authority over us.
    Sex outside of marriage results in STD, unplanned marriage and overall result can do harm to the baby if aborted due to unplanned pregency.

    You don't see tigers and dogs using condoms... so why do we? Is this what nature tells us to do? "Hey prevent births by using a condom!" By nature we are to produce life, not prevent it.

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    Error is only inevitable if it was ment to be inevitable. But it wasn't this time.
    error is allways inevtiable. No matter what. We are imperfect therefor errors will ALLWAYS happen even to your book

    No problem Zelos, just been pre-occupied with other stuff but I will give you a short list of facts from that video I kept talking about. btw that days thing was just a puff in the air compared to what the Qur'an beholds.
    i´ll be delighted. Remember i´ll be very sceptic and if you cant even convince me. dont think you will with scientists.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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    I disagree with the statement that sex is nothing more then baby making. Many animals use is as a way of dominance. Some apes do it for pleasure and so do some/most humans. It used to be only for baby making because it has been long a taboo to talk about your sex life. But now that has changed and so has the ‘usage’ of sex. If we have sex for pleasure and not for babies then why not doing it safe, without diseases or unwanted babies?

    Many religious people say it’s the duty of a woman to make as much babies as possible, which is the reason not to use anti-conception pills etc. But I think were long past that stage in society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Effervescent
    We have sex without babies, to practice it, to refine it to such an art that when we desire a child we can be sure we know how to achieve it and that we will, with consumate accuracy. It is like learning to write, it must be practised in order to be perfected.
    Why would you need to "perfect" something like that?

    If you believe that STD was created by God to punish infidelity could you enlighten me as to his/her/it's reason(s) for creating the common cold? Was it perhaps to discourage people from talking amongst themselves and discovering that God might not exist? [ paradox intended].
    I don't believe STD was created by God as punishment. Typically all sins have consequences. He did make these laws only for protection for us not just to lord his authority over us.
    Sex outside of marriage results in STD, unplanned marriage and overall result can do harm to the baby if aborted due to unplanned pregency.

    You don't see tigers and dogs using condoms... so why do we? Is this what nature tells us to do? "Hey prevent births by using a condom!" By nature we are to produce life, not prevent it.

    Effervescent

    Hey, I tried to answer your questions, now you answer mine before you pose anymore - The two questions I asked at the begining of my post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    We are imperfect therefor errors will ALLWAYS happen even to your book
    WE do make mistakes, WE do cause errors, but WE are not the authers of this Book, and so there will never, ever, EVER be an error in this Book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilco
    1) Why does God keep ALL the most religious countries in the world as the poorest, most hardworking,backward, highest infant mortality etc etc ?

    2) Why is there dust on rocks on moons orbiting planets around stars in other galaxies?
    1) Well firstly, its not always been this way. But anyway, its a huge test of faith personally, I've always questioned myself about such things, and why muslim countries rarely win at the Olympics, the World Cup and modern wars, that was until I saw a couple years ago when I saw a documentary about 'The Last Day' - This I studied VERY hard. The 45 minute video told of many things the Holly Qur'an says about the final days on Earth, all of which would happen when the muslim world was at its weakest, and of which has not happen before. I'll try to get a link to the vid if you want.

    So who am I to judge, when the Guidence given to us speaks in full truth - even if its hard to take.

    2) Was the question: Why do little things happen in places we will never see, and that will never affect us?

    Well to answer it - The Universe was given to us, it is ours to explore. We should be traveling at light speeds, we should be visiting these specs of dust on rocks on moons orbiting planets around stars in other galaxies, its not there for no reason. btw what about life on other planets?

    Q) So how come entire galaxies can pass through one another, without any of their entities ever touching the others? Is this coincedence? If so then 'what are the odds'!!!
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  86. #85  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    We are imperfect therefor errors will ALLWAYS happen even to your book
    WE do make mistakes, WE do cause errors, but WE are not the authers of this Book, and so there will never, ever, EVER be an error in this Book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilco
    1) Why does God keep ALL the most religious countries in the world as the poorest, most hardworking,backward, highest infant mortality etc etc ?

    2) Why is there dust on rocks on moons orbiting planets around stars in other galaxies?
    1) Well firstly, its not always been this way. But anyway, its a huge test of faith personally, I've always questioned myself about such things, and why muslim countries rarely win at the Olympics, the World Cup and modern wars, that was until I saw a couple years ago when I saw a documentary about 'The Last Day' - This I studied VERY hard. The 45 minute video told of many things the Holly Qur'an says about the final days on Earth, all of which would happen when the muslim world was at its weakest, and of which has not happen before. I'll try to get a link to the vid if you want.

    So who am I to judge, when the Guidence given to us speaks in full truth - even if its hard to take.

    2) Was the question: Why do little things happen in places we will never see, and that will never affect us?

    Well to answer it - The Universe was given to us, it is ours to explore. We should be traveling at light speeds, we should be visiting these specs of dust on rocks on moons orbiting planets around stars in other galaxies, its not there for no reason. btw what about life on other planets?

    Q) So how come entire galaxies can pass through one another, without any of their entities ever touching the others? Is this coincedence? If so then 'what are the odds'!!!

    " The 45 minute video told of many things the Holly Qur'an says about the final days on Earth, all of which would happen when the muslim world was at its weakest"


    cant you see the madness in this statement, this could be interpreted as "when our religion becomes weak the end is coming" or "how to get religious fundamentalists to pick up the pace" do you seriously believe this?

    and im so sick of ALL religions saying that all the crap that happens to people is to test their faith, pretty sick stuff, very sick god.


    Child dying of cancer- religious answer "to test faith"

    people starving in millions - "to test faith"

    any suffering- "to test faith"

    If that was true, cant you see how sick that is?


    the other thing that disturbs me is you studied the video very hard, i would watch a video and make my mind up one way or the other not lap it up and believe everything i see/read.


    How many suicide bombers go down the same route, all this "if god wills crap"martyrdom is for weak minded people who get brainwashed into this way of thinking, and all they are is some plaything for a psycho billionaire whos got issues and his own agenda


    jagoman, this isnt intented as an insult to you personally but how many people take in this koran s**t. its really sad, christianitys not brilliant either but its not taking innocents lifes on a daily basis in its name


    also you say about it speaking the truth, if there was a mohammed, he could have been a conman or madman, same as for the person who wrote the bible and everyother religious scripture.

    religion is for the gullable, the pawns of others
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    Two galaxies passing through each other. Imagine two clouds of footballs - no two footballs in either cloud are closer than 250 miles to each other scale them up to galaxy size. The chance of any two colliding is about 23 billion to 1. and if two stars did collide then you would not see any change to the overall galaxy. Tell me what does your God have to say about me? I do not believe in God. I help people wherever and whenever I can. I do not harm anybody, I do not steal or destroy. And I give money to charity.

    Caveman,

    Please do not address Jagoman in those tones. Jagoman has a right to believe in any system or concept he chooses. You may think it absurd but that you should keep to yourself - Although I do not believe in God I dissociate myself from any person who mocks the belief of others.
    If you can't be civil, be silent.
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  88. #87  
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Two galaxies passing through each other. Imagine two clouds of footballs - no two footballs in either cloud are closer than 250 miles to each other scale them up to galaxy size. The chance of any two colliding is about 23 billion to 1. and if two stars did collide then you would not see any change to the overall galaxy. Tell me what does your God have to say about me? I do not believe in God. I help people wherever and whenever I can. I do not harm anybody, I do not steal or destroy. And I give money to charity.

    Caveman,

    Please do not address Jagoman in those tones. Jagoman has a right to believe in any system or concept he chooses. You may think it absurd but that you should keep to yourself - Although I do not believe in God I dissociate myself from any person who mocks the belief of others.
    If you can't be civil, be silent.

    i wasnt saying it to insult and of course everone has their right to their beliefs, its just in this day and age with the world like it is somethings were disturbing to read.

    and ive had personal experience due to the loss of someone 5years ago in a certain part of new york and wouldn't want to see that repeated and thats the reason for my concerns


    this is what didnt sit well

    "BTW many of Osama bin laden's acts are acts of revenge, which you could most definately say the west started, in order to gain its strengths and powers that it has today. Of which are used against muslim countries and people, using money and "friendship" with the greedy arab leaders to gain their support and backing. All of which has been predicted in the Holly Qur'an. Traitors and misguided people rule the wealth of the muslim world."

    cant stand the justification for killing civilians in anyones name, and this general anti-west stuff thats all
    nothing personal to jagoman or anyone else i offended
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    Quote Originally Posted by billco

    Caveman,

    Please do not address Jagoman in those tones. Jagoman has a right to believe in any system or concept he chooses. You may think it absurd but that you should keep to yourself - Although I do not believe in God I dissociate myself from any person who mocks the belief of others.
    If you can't be civil, be silent.
    I think your heart is in the right place, and that Cavemans tone is a little bitter, but his enquiry is legitamate and deserving of explanations.
    At the same time this should give Jagoman the perfect oppotunity to explain the religion of Islam.

    Jan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    " The 45 minute video told of many things the Holly Qur'an says about the final days on Earth, all of which would happen when the muslim world was at its weakest"

    cant you see the madness in this statement, this could be interpreted as "when our religion becomes weak the end is coming" or "how to get religious fundamentalists to pick up the pace" do you seriously believe this?
    I totally agree with you, what a stupid statement to make. How about adding the end of the sentence you cut off from the quote. ", and of which has not happen before" < in regards to the many signs of the last day, not about the Muslim world being at its weakest.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    and im so sick of ALL religions saying that all the crap that happens to people is to test their faith, pretty sick stuff, very sick god.
    Firstly, that was a personal opinion, although very offensive to those suffering. Secondly, the West is largly to blame for the suffering, due to sanctions and arming the enemies of poor and muslim world. Propaganda is heavily at work in this modern age, which is why people should think for themselves and not believe everything they hear, even from their own people.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    the other thing that disturbs me is you studied the video very hard, i would watch a video and make my mind up one way or the other not lap it up and believe everything i see/read.
    Sorry, I meant I watched it, and did my research. As I was saying before, I dont believe everything I see/read/hear. Propaganda.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    How many suicide bombers go down the same route, all this "if god wills crap"martyrdom is for weak minded people who get brainwashed into this way of thinking, and all they are is some plaything for a psycho billionaire whos got issues and his own agenda
    Bin Laden, was a millionaire, had status in the world, though he chose to help the muslim world in the way he could (against the west). Although I wouldn't say all his actions are sensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    jagoman, this isnt intented as an insult to you personally but how many people take in this koran s**t. its really sad, christianitys not brilliant either but its not taking innocents lifes on a daily basis in its name
    Well, its very insulting. But being on this forum, I pretty much expected it. Islam shows us a 'way of life', a way in which to live life. It is perfect, but our opinons think it is flawed (barbaric to some), in the way that it restricts our freedom to do things, while in actual fact it is protecting us and keeping us happy. for example, clothing women modestly to reduce the number of rapes in the world. Although it should be noted that this way of life, and the rules that come with it should be followed as a whole.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    also you say about it speaking the truth, if there was a mohammed, he could have been a conman or madman, same as for the person who wrote the bible and everyother religious scripture.
    a conman, a madman, a man who was so intellectually advanced in his age to understand the development of a baby inside a womans womb, the atmospheric layers that surround the earth, or the workings of the universe. Whatever he was, if the holly Qur'an was not the word of God (I believe it is), then this man was smarter than einstein (a jew), and had a time machine.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    religion is for the gullable, the pawns of others
    Religion is for those who (whom) seek understanding of Life.


    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Two galaxies passing through each other. Imagine two clouds of footballs - no two footballs in either cloud are closer than 250 miles to each other scale them up to galaxy size. The chance of any two colliding is about 23 billion to 1. and if two stars did collide then you would not see any change to the overall galaxy.
    How big are these clouds of footballs? Are they never ending? Are they ever expanding? Yeah you can tip that chance scale completely the other way. Im not an complete expert on astronemy so I dont know of the effects off two stars colliding, but if they did how do you know it won't change the overall galaxy, you haven't studied them for billions of years - or have you? 8)

    Quote Originally Posted by billco
    Tell me what does your God have to say about me? I do not believe in God. I help people wherever and whenever I can. I do not harm anybody, I do not steal or destroy. And I give money to charity.
    I dont know what God has to say about you. But I can say (if those things are true) that your a good person who thinks of others more in need than you. But self admiration has dominated your logical thinking, lol thats not an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by captaincaveman
    and ive had personal experience due to the loss of someone 5years ago in a certain part of new york
    I would normally say your opinions are completly overwelmed by emotion and so your views should be disregarded, but then we all have emotions, but then again we all have logic < which is why I also study the Holly Qur'an as well as follow by it, which all good muslims are encouraged to do.

    pheww! that was a lot. as a reward for me, I'll give one final message, to you all:

    Be religious, it is a very small commitment, and if your right - you go to heaven, if your wrong then ... nothing. With religion you make friends, be modest and you will have no enemies.

    Whatever you say about my religion, good or bad, it keeps me happy - I dont know why, but it does.
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  91. #90  
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    ok, i keep it less offensive

    firstly, the west cannot be blamed for the suffering because of arming poor and muslim world. the person to blame for this is the end user, sorry but thats a fact. if the market wasn't there then the arms couldn't be sold

    secondly, of course propagando in rife in the modern world but not all, the videos of bombs going off, be-heading of adulterers and westeners etc isnt propoganda, i dont believe everything but seeing that is quite obvious for what it is

    thirdly, the comment about womens clothing stopping rapes is like saying "we cant help ourselves they were flaunting it", this is the excuse of rapists and a poor excuse. In the west rapes are pretty low considering most women show parts of their bodys off every day and thats in a country with a large population of athiests and any country/religion that has to hide temptation doesn't show its got much moral strength.

    and finally the question of being intellectually advanced for his age, as been shown on here on this and other threads some if not all of those advances and others alike preceed the koran. that doesnt show signs of divinity and if they were all discovered by mohammed then HE was a very clever man, that doesn't make him a prophet

    Alot of these "discoverys" are down to how you interpret the information, there was no exact laws or specifics involved and doesn't prove anything

    for one the discovery of the devolpment of a baby in the womb could be down to the study of bodys in different stages of pregnancy that have died and shows nothing of divinity, davinci did similar and in more detail, he invented and understood alot of physics and biology way above what was understood at the time, he also wasnt divine, he was another clever guy as was pythagorus, copernicus, archimedes etc

    and "Religion is for those who (whom) seek understanding of Life" is wrong religion is for people who want someone else to tell them the answer. science is for those whom seek understanding of life


    In my opinion :wink:
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  92. #91  
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    It is very much a characteristic of Islam that one is encouraged to be courteous and respectful in ones communications. You have observed, that such behviour is not always the norm on forums such as this.

    Just as you are appealing for an open mind in how others might view Islam and your points concerning it, I ask you to keep an open mind as to what exactly constitutes courtesy and respect.

    What prompted me to consider this was the following passage.
    Quote Originally Posted by jagoman
    Islam shows us a 'way of life', a way in which to live life. It is perfect, but our opinons think it is flawed (barbaric to some), in the way that it restricts our freedom to do things, while in actual fact it is protecting us and keeping us happy. for example, clothing women modestly to reduce the number of rapes in the world.
    Now there are broadly two ways in which I could respond to this (assuming I wished to respond.) Here they are.

    Response 1: This is an interesting point jagoman. It does seem to be in conflict with extensive research, in many countries, over several decades, which show that rape has little or nothing to do with sex, but is all about power. Certain personalities, feeling threatened and powerless, may seek to enhance their self image through the act of rape.

    In these circumstances, activities designed to reduce the risk by reducing the temptation - for example, using modest clothing, avoiding women being alone - are ultimately doomed to failure. Indeed all they do is to inhibit the very persons the actions are designed to protect.

    From the perspective of an outsider it appears as if such restrictions are in very real danger of being used more to control women than to protect them. This places Islam in a bad light and is one of the reasons that many westerners view it negatively.

    Response 2:Utter nonsense. Men rape women in order to assert their power, or more precisely to compensate for a feeling of powerlessness. Requiring that they (women) take on responsibility for attacks on their own persons is an affront to natural justice. It is offensive, and because of the motivation for the rapes, utterly pointless.
    It typifies the arrogant, patriarchal attitude endemic within Islam in its approach to women. It has no place in a civilised society. Frankly, if there is a God such a requirement (modest dress) is an affront to her.


    Now, jagoman, you may feel that you prefer Response 1 to Response 2. If so then you prefer the response in which I assume you have the self control of a small child, in which I patronise you, in which I treat you as uneducated, and in which I barely conceal the snears.

    In Response 2, however, which I suspect you found less attractive, I accord you full respect of being an individual who can understand direct talking, who can engage in vigorous debate, and is not afraid to hear opinions expressed with clarity and conviction.

    Let me know which kind of response you would favour from me in future. I shall be happy to oblige. I hope you will allow me to treat you with the respect to be found in the honesty of the second response.
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    WE do make mistakes, WE do cause errors, but WE are not the authers of this Book, and so there will never, ever, EVER be an error in this Book.
    since we copy it we do misstages wich makes it change.
    We are the auther of the book. we made it. by man for man to man

    If you can accept that atleast there have been errors in coping in the book that have survived unti´l today i´ll be ready to change my veiw on islam. Else you just confirm that its stupid
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

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