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Thread: Who's Belief in God is Greatest?

  1. #1 Who's Belief in God is Greatest? 
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    And how is that Judged?


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    By the bomb blast radius of their suicide vest when they blow themselves up to kill someone of another religion?
    --

    Or are you trying to determine how scientist determine level of religiosity when conducting research? I hope so, since that fits the framework of "science of religion."


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  4. #3  
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    If you insist......

    Or, why look awards while inspecting dust?
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    Another possibility if you want to pursue that track is discussing studies of how different religions test their own members. Islam for example views the Ramadan fasting as central to test their faith every year. Many religions have arduous pilgrimages. There are probably some interesting comparative studies.
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    It's probably better to say that religiosity itself, but a collection of trait and therefore not that useful in science, since those traits aren't necessarily related. But I suppose church attendance is often implicitly used.
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    Religiosity is related to risk management and particularly risk aversion. Which is also why women across all societies tend to be more religious than men.

    So the answer to the question is likely those who are most paranoid.
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  8. #7  
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    In some cases the most inbred populations are the most religious. Jews, Muslims and Hindus in Israel, Pakistan and India for instance. I'm not sure if it applies to remote islands, where some inbreeding is inevitable, though. It could also explain why countries with more of a mix have a higher proportion of doubters.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    What do you mean by "greatest"


    In any case I say all religious people should pray that their god alters gravity and have them run by the millions off a very high cliff like lemmings. Which ever religions has their faithful defy gravity and survive instead of going splat wins the contest and I join that religion.
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    I think what I am eluding to is whether a belief in God makes God great, or if God is already great.

    Is there any evidence of there being a dispelling of God's power by people "not" believing. Conversely, is God's power enhanced by a people's belief in God?
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    What is known about God? If there was one indisputable fact then there would be no believers or disbelievers.

    How hard can obtaining an indisputable fact be? Apparently really hard since God would have to give it.

    Why not? God is either not here, or is here and has chosen to be silent and non-interfering

    Does absence and/or silent aloofness prove God's existence? No, but it doesn't discourage it either..... However they are the closest thing to a genuine fact about God that we currently have.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  12. #11  
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    How then would God prove himself to people without breaking any known laws about God (though shalt not test the Lord thy God)?

    What benchmark feature would have people "believe" God manifest to be God manifest? Immortality? Supernatural powers science can't explain?
    Last edited by theQuestIsNotOver; December 20th, 2011 at 03:19 PM.
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  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    How then would God prove himself to people without breaking any known laws about God (though shalt not test the Lord thy God)?
    We haven't ever truly established God's existence (remember that thing called faith), so any laws about God mean nothing.

    What benchmark feature would have people "believe" God manifest to be God manifest? Immortality? Supernatural powers science can't explain?
    Not quite sure what you're asking here but since we don't know anything about God then the answer is unknown. However, could god deliver something convincing? We can't even be sure God can. Again, since we know nothing about Him then it is impossible to say just what God might do to prove to the entire world that He's around.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    One "can" establish God's existence, and "still need faith". Don't think of course you can judge someone and know them. I am sure God's book is a very difficult read.......and could in fact require faith.

    God could be a tree, for instance, and yes that would requirte faith, but the fact remains of God's existence as a tree, which would require faith as a source of intelligence.

    Are "you" sure you know what "you" mean?

    "Faith" does not pre-suppose non-existence, yet it seems you think such is the case. Why? Who taught you that?
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  15. #14  
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    "I think what I am eluding to is whether a belief in God makes God great, or if God is already great."
    This is entirely up to the people who create the myth to determine what are the powers and limitations of the invented characters. For example Namor gains strength from contact with water, while Superman gets weaker when close to kryptonite. It adds flavor to the myth. So if you want you could say that God gets weaker the less people believe in him, like faith is a form of energy. This would add flavor to a movie in which with a little action and suspense people dont have the time to wonder how come God made everything if there wasnt any beleivers to give him the energy in the first place. But then again you can say that initial creation drained gods energy to such a level that he now needs mana from prayers to recharge his magical powers. Basically you can decide what are the powers of a God are, but preferably you have to be consistent to make a better story (like in Star Trek they didnt use transporters in some situation where they should so that the problem could be fixed in a more interesting way, and often did not have access to a fantastic breakthrough in technology they had whip-out in a few minutes to save their butt in the previous show).

    ( Thor use to be powerful, but unfortunately mortals no longer worshiping him made his power so low that he can no longer appear to us with his magical hammer anymore like he used to, which feeds the skepticim. But he can still talk to worthy mortal, like myself, and that's what he just explained to me just now. )
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    According to one book I read, God is now too old and feeble to do anything. I think it said that Metatron was taking control, claiming to be God's deputy. No wonder things are in such a mess.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    One "can" establish God's existence, and "still need faith".
    Please establish God's existence for us.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  18. #17  
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    Name your process.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Name your process.
    I don't care, just establish his existence for us. I mean, how hard can it be?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  20. #19  
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    Let's stick with the basics: could someone who doesn't age be called a God? Are the terms "ïmmortality" and "God" synonymous, more than say "beetlejuice" and "adracadabra"?
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Let's stick with the basics: could someone who doesn't age be called a God? Are the terms "ïmmortality" and "God" synonymous, more than say "beetlejuice" and "adracadabra"?
    No believer knows a single thing about God. Up to this point in human history, god's existence has not been established by belief. Otherwise God would be known, and I emphasize known, to everyone. Wouldn't a believer want to know instead of believe? Are they satisfied not knowing?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Let's stick with the basics: could someone who doesn't age be called a God? Are the terms "ïmmortality" and "God" synonymous, more than say "beetlejuice" and "adracadabra"?
    Like turtles, aspens and certain bacteria? Sure I'll call them gods--at least we can prove they exist.
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  23. #22  
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    Derailment. Or is this a tangent?

    Wt? Turtles, immortality? Bacteria?

    The whole "basis" of the idea of God is the "existence" of God, the display of absolute power..........the effect of inducing worship, awe, and so on.

    I am sure bacteria and turtles to people especially those who love nature can be very inspirational, right?
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    The whole "basis" of the idea of God is the "existence" of God, the display of absolute power..........the effect of inducing worship, awe, and so on.
    You cannot establish the existence of God based on an idea. An idea of God or a belief in God are practically the same thing.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    I have spent a lot of time today trying to figure out what this question is looking for. I have concluded that the questioner is asking what god requires the greatest amount of belief to be accepted by his/her followers.

    I have calculated by a scientific process which must remain secret that the god who requires the greatest amount of faith to believe in is the Flying Speghetti Monster followed closely by the religion of evolution.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    The whole "basis" of the idea of God is the "existence" of God, the display of absolute power..........the effect of inducing worship, awe, and so on.
    You cannot establish the existence of God based on an idea. An idea of God or a belief in God are practically the same thing.

    That's exactly what I said. The idea requires the existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner View Post
    I have spent a lot of time today trying to figure out what this question is looking for. I have concluded that the questioner is asking what god requires the greatest amount of belief to be accepted by his/her followers.

    I have calculated by a scientific process which must remain secret that the god who requires the greatest amount of faith to believe in is the Flying Speghetti Monster followed closely by the religion of evolution.
    Just to confirm what I am looking for:

    "I think what I am eluding to is whether a belief in God makes God great, or if God is already great"

    Is there any evidence of there being a dispelling of God's power by people "not" believing. Conversely, is God's power enhanced by a people's belief in God?
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Derailment. Or is this a tangent?

    Wt? Turtles, immortality? Bacteria?

    The whole "basis" of the idea of God is the "existence" of God, the display of absolute power..........the effect of inducing worship, awe, and so on.

    I am sure bacteria and turtles to people especially those who love nature can be very inspirational, right?
    That is your narrow basis. Many peoples have worshiped plants and other animals as gods--the extremely long life, essentially forever compared to a puny human lifespan, could have been one such basis for their reasoning.
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    Ok. But, if I were to make a political comment here about how to take the idea of a subject way off the historical value, this is how the world is heading..............and the world has ideas and their blessed people of those ideas as such to thank for that direction. Marvellous, isn't it.

    Is there anything else you would like me to take on board for the sake of your argument? I mean, if you want this thread to end because it offends you, because it seems to outweigh your own opinion, just say so. There's not much interest in it anyway.
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  30. #29  
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    The thread is ok, but was better when it centered more on how to measure "belief in god," which is a valid question independent of the same boring "is there a god" conversation that never gets anywhere.

    There are a number of good reasons to know viable ways to measure belief--because its obviously central to how so many think about the world.
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  31. #30  
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    Ok.

    Measuring belief is what I initially sought. Is it a dimension our minds can tarry with, for instance. Is God potentially wired into our psyche, as Kabbalists once upon a time considered as a science, maybe still do, who knows, what would they say about it anyway.........

    Ah, I detract.

    Anyway, what spectrum do we measure our belief on? War? Peace? Solitude? Community? Everything? Nothing? Can it be measured?
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    So, we seek "certainty" with our beliefs, less risk, more certainty?
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    Why not? i'll google some studies for you shall i?
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    Do any of these searches you propose merit any success in finding certainty with a certain affiliation of belief in God to the level the belief they have according to the God they worship represents a type of greatness (in their own eyes, or their God's eyes, which?)? To be considered "greatest", even?
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    So you talking about religiosity motivated by a desire for moral superiority?
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    Ah. Are there uses for "moral superioritÿ"?

    What is "moral"? How useful is "moral"? Does it help people trust one another?
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    I think it's possible to consider a dersire for moral superiority to be maladaptive. To you other q's: i don't know; probably very i would've thought; yes.
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    Possibly the desire comes from the one who has it, what sense of that with moral superiority?
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    Well, i suppose a suicide bomber could be considered someone who has a desire for moral superiority. Is such a person morally superior?
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    Ah ha ha ha haaaaa.

    What ïs"a greater good? Is that in-line with moral-superiority?

    Should not the majority who are healthy and wanting to live represent a true cause of life? For life........and so what does that have to do with suicide?
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    Well, i suppose 'giving your life to the cause' could be morally superior, but if you take a bunch of people with you... i don't think so.
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  43. #42  
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    THat took a lot of convincing.

    You got through.

    So, we agree that "moral behaviour" helps a community trust one another.

    Yes?
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    er...yes. I don't understand.
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  45. #44  
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    You don't live in any such community.

    It seems.

    You see, harbouring moral behaviour "ässists" a gathering of individuals along a code of survival for all those they know.

    It's a wonderful thing.
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    You think my community doesn't care about morality? What do you base that on? Presumably my own behaviour in 100 something posts. You could at least be specific.
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    Yes.

    They're with you.
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  48. #47  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    The whole "basis" of the idea of God is the "existence" of God, the display of absolute power..........the effect of inducing worship, awe, and so on.
    You cannot establish the existence of God based on an idea. An idea of God or a belief in God are practically the same thing.

    That's exactly what I said. The idea requires the existence.
    My bad. However I see no reason for the idea if God is known to exist.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  49. #48  
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    If I were to classify anything living on this planet a "God" I would give the title to cyanobacteria since they were the first to give us oxygen and food. The chloroplasts of plant cells are viewed as cyanobacteria colonies and in the story of Moses that received the word of "God" was from a burning bush. The bush is made of chloroplasts cells (cyanobacteria colonies) and the light represents the sun which is the main source of energy for life to emerge and is dependent on for its survival.
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