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Thread: the STRANGEST THING ive ever witness, can u explain?

  1. #1 the STRANGEST THING ive ever witness, can u explain? 
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    im 20 and dont folow religion from early this year, but this is so strange:well, it was 3 years back i think, Henry Hinn (younger bro of Benny Hinn,the famous preacher,healer) was hving crusade in our city, on football field(not stadium), after his prayer, he proclaim miracle healings, the strange one among those is: on the opp side to the podium he was standing was a 5story building, where people are wacthing from the top 2 veranda, He said (i dont remem exact) pointing towards that veranda, ''The girl with Cancer raise up your hand, your healed'', than 1 girl around 35 (on top floor veranda) raise her hand. WTF is that?


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    ''The girl with Cancer raise up your hand, your healed'', than 1 girl around 35 (on top floor veranda) raise her hand. WTF is that?
    Simple theatrics.


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    She could have been planted there, ready to raise her hand on cue, or he could have been playing the odds. Among a large number of people, there is probably a good chance there is a girl with cancer, especially in a faith healer's audience. If nobody had raised their hand, he would have a ready answer, such as that the girl with cancer is too shy to raise her hand but she is healed nevertheless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    She could have been planted there, ready to raise her hand on cue, or he could have been playing the odds. Among a large number of people, there is probably a good chance there is a girl with cancer, especially in a faith healer's audience. If nobody had raised their hand, he would have a ready answer, such as that the girl with cancer is too shy to raise her hand but she is healed nevertheless.
    good thinking nice ans, but playing the odds was not practical if u see it real, coz there were only around 12 people on that specific veranda he pointed out saying it.

    ive tot of tht play thing, but if it was some drama, atleast some of benny hinn's healings on tv,etc shud be too, which is very posible but unlikely.
    another guess is that, he hd heard about that cancer girl(parents asking to see her, or hd been invited to tea, etc). I dont think she was healed anyway,if she was really diagnosed cancer. Anyway, he cud jst hv announced many healings as people wud be more generous ;]
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    I cannot explain a particular event of alleged faith healing.

    I know the televangelist, Joel Osteen, often says his mother had a terminal diagnosis of cancer, and he believes she was healed as the result of prayer. She is still alive.

    Interestingly, his sermon this week discusses the theological perspective on highly improbable events. I won't link to it although people have linked here to atheist rants on You Tube.

    However, if anyone is interested in a theological perspective on good "coincidences", his perspective is illuminating. It is easily found on his website as "The Goodness of God" #513.

    It is a simple matter to attach a "worldly", (non-theological) interpretation on positive low probability events when they are examined retrospectively. However, when they happen prospectively, then at least the person involved will be more likely to attach a theological explanation if he / she is so inclined.

    For example, last winter we were traveling often, 2-3 trips / month. Twice we were in airports trying to catch evening flights where weather was awful and whole screens of flights were being delayed or canceled. People were being sent to hotels. I had just listened to a tape about "positive affirmations", where the minister suggested confronting all such situations with a "positive faith affirmation". Amazingly within minutes of using this technique an airline employee found a boarding flight that could connect somewhere and get us home. It happened twice.

    I bring this up because perhaps this is something that could be studied. I don't know about faith healing. However, it might be reasonable to have study groups try such a technique on a specified category of negative circumstances compared to a group who doesn't use a "faith affirmation". Diaries could be kept, and the results recorded to see if anything is reproducible.
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    For example, last winter we were traveling often, 2-3 trips / month. Twice we were in airports trying to catch evening flights where weather was awful and whole screens of flights were being delayed or canceled. People were being sent to hotels. I had just listened to a tape about "positive affirmations", where the minister suggested confronting all such situations with a "positive faith affirmation". Amazingly within minutes of using this technique an airline employee found a boarding flight that could connect somewhere and get us home. It happened twice.
    Do you think your "positive affirmation" help make the seats available, by making certain people cancel their trips? Or it influenced the airline employee to look harder than she would normally do?
    I bring this up because perhaps this is something that could be studied. I don't know about faith healing. However, it might be reasonable to have study groups try such a technique on a specified category of negative circumstances compared to a group who doesn't use a "faith affirmation". Diaries could be kept, and the results recorded to see if anything is reproducible.
    The Templeton Foundation has funded an experiment on the effect of prayer to heal sick patients. The result is that there is no correlation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit View Post
    For example, last winter we were traveling often, 2-3 trips / month. Twice we were in airports trying to catch evening flights where weather was awful and whole screens of flights were being delayed or canceled. People were being sent to hotels. I had just listened to a tape about "positive affirmations", where the minister suggested confronting all such situations with a "positive faith affirmation". Amazingly within minutes of using this technique an airline employee found a boarding flight that could connect somewhere and get us home. It happened twice.
    Do you think your "positive affirmation" help make the seats available, by making certain people cancel their trips? Or it influenced the airline employee to look harder than she would normally do?
    I bring this up because perhaps this is something that could be studied. I don't know about faith healing. However, it might be reasonable to have study groups try such a technique on a specified category of negative circumstances compared to a group who doesn't use a "faith affirmation". Diaries could be kept, and the results recorded to see if anything is reproducible.
    The Templeton Foundation has funded an experiment on the effect of prayer to heal sick patients. The result is that there is no correlation.
    Prasit:

    I would say the second choice is more likely. It happened so fast that I think the airline employee just looked again and told us to run to gate_____.

    I heard about the prayer experiments. That is why i was suggesting the "faith affirmation" as something else that could be studied. Once I heard a sermon that explained that an "affirmation of faith" is different than prayer, and can succeed when prayer alone is not sufficient. There are passages in both the new and old Testaments about this sort of thing.
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    I would say the second choice is more likely. It happened so fast that I think the airline employee just looked again and told us to run to gate_____
    Then it is something not really much different from persistence. And it can be more easily explained by chance happening, as you can cite only 2 instances.
    I heard about the prayer experiments. That is why i was suggesting the "faith affirmation" as something else that could be studied.
    You would have difficulty in getting funding to do this. Are you thinking of conducting experiments or gathering empirical data?
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    I thought it might just be fun to design an experiment. It would not be necessary to actually do it.

    I am mainly curious about what could be done that has not been tried, and whether or not a small group can collectively create a possible option that is better than what an individual might come up with.
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    You may first tell us what "positive affirmation" really means. Then may be we can suggest how to design an experiment. However, this is off the topic of this thread.
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    Cute conjecture about coincidence.

    If you live your entire life being told coincidence is miracle, eventually you'll be subject to a few "miracles" - it's called probability.
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    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit View Post
    For example, last winter we were traveling often, 2-3 trips / month. Twice we were in airports trying to catch evening flights where weather was awful and whole screens of flights were being delayed or canceled. People were being sent to hotels. I had just listened to a tape about "positive affirmations", where the minister suggested confronting all such situations with a "positive faith affirmation". Amazingly within minutes of using this technique an airline employee found a boarding flight that could connect somewhere and get us home. It happened twice.
    Do you think your "positive affirmation" help make the seats available, by making certain people cancel their trips? Or it influenced the airline employee to look harder than she would normally do?
    I bring this up because perhaps this is something that could be studied. I don't know about faith healing. However, it might be reasonable to have study groups try such a technique on a specified category of negative circumstances compared to a group who doesn't use a "faith affirmation". Diaries could be kept, and the results recorded to see if anything is reproducible.
    The Templeton Foundation has funded an experiment on the effect of prayer to heal sick patients. The result is that there is no correlation.
    Some medical scientist label some examples of people healed by prayer as "spontaneous remission."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit View Post
    For example, last winter we were traveling often, 2-3 trips / month. Twice we were in airports trying to catch evening flights where weather was awful and whole screens of flights were being delayed or canceled. People were being sent to hotels. I had just listened to a tape about "positive affirmations", where the minister suggested confronting all such situations with a "positive faith affirmation". Amazingly within minutes of using this technique an airline employee found a boarding flight that could connect somewhere and get us home. It happened twice.
    Do you think your "positive affirmation" help make the seats available, by making certain people cancel their trips? Or it influenced the airline employee to look harder than she would normally do?
    I bring this up because perhaps this is something that could be studied. I don't know about faith healing. However, it might be reasonable to have study groups try such a technique on a specified category of negative circumstances compared to a group who doesn't use a "faith affirmation". Diaries could be kept, and the results recorded to see if anything is reproducible.
    The Templeton Foundation has funded an experiment on the effect of prayer to heal sick patients. The result is that there is no correlation.
    Some medical scientist label some examples of people healed by prayer as "spontaneous remission."
    Due to the very valid reason that there is absolutely no way to connect "prayer" to any physical occurrence. You don't label it something if there is no way to prove any connection.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Why not? They drive Mercedes and wear Rolex watches just like doctors, but do not have to pay the malpractice insurance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Why not? They drive Mercedes and wear Rolex watches just like doctors, but do not have to pay the malpractice insurance!

    Jesus would be so PROUD of his team!
    I know for a fact that some Christians have a God given gift for healing others .. I know that some people have a gift for doing math .. some people doing math drive mercedes and some drive pickup trucks .. Christians are human and subject to human weaknesses same as mathematicians who could give their mercedes money to poor single mothers for groceries. I suggest that you quit watching television so much and get out into the real world, attend a few faith services, attend a few faith healing services. You might be plesantly surprised.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by The Finger Prince View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Why not? They drive Mercedes and wear Rolex watches just like doctors, but do not have to pay the malpractice insurance!

    Jesus would be so PROUD of his team!
    I know for a fact that some Christians have a God given gift for healing others .. I know that some people have a gift for doing math .. some people doing math drive mercedes and some drive pickup trucks .. Christians are human and subject to human weaknesses same as mathematicians who could give their mercedes money to poor single mothers for groceries. I suggest that you quit watching television so much and get out into the real world, attend a few faith services, attend a few faith healing services. You might be plesantly surprised.
    A fact? ROFL....

    More like a self reinforcing belief system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zesterer View Post
    Wierdest thing ever? Magnets. Doesn't anyone wander how two lumps of metal and push away from each other without a power sorce or touching each other?
    I don't see why it's any weirder than gravity? In fact, in many ways it's better understood.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    I know for a fact that some Christians have a God given gift for healing others .. I know that some people have a gift for doing math
    Maths is real, though.
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    I'll go with the 'pre-arranged' theory as well.

    I've known people who were 'healed' - for lack of a better word - by prayer. I'm not going to go into detail here because A) I don't want to type all night, and B) those who don't want to hear it won't believe it anyway. Those who read what I write should by now understand when I write or claim something, I have reasonable grounds for making those claims. The 'healing' I have seen were seen by me, and not second (or third) hand experiences. Some were drastic, some were rather minor.

    However, I have never known of any person 'healed' as a direct result of any of the television 'faith healers'. None. Not a cotton-blessed one. Frankly, if I could, I'd put most TV preachers into some kind of productive job out of the public eye. And ALL of the TV 'healers'.

    By the way, in the Bible - James 5:14 - James says, "Is anyone among you ill? He should summon the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." What many people who read this do not understand is the "... anoint ... with oil..." was one of, and indicative of normal medical treatment of the day. In other words, Christians are to take proper medical steps - rest, drink plenty of water, don't pick at it, put a splint on it, make chicken soup, rub it with Vicks, get chemotherapy, whatever - AND pray about it.

    The concept of prayer and answers to prayer is simple and at the same time rather subtle. I find a decent explanation more than I feel I can enter here. Suffice it to say, the Bible does not teach that God is some form of Genie in a Bottle who grants wishes in the form of prayers. Nor is God a Heavenly vending machine that pops out toys or treats if operated correctly.

    I suppose I'm bordering on preaching here. I am attempting to explain what the underlying principles are - which is pretty much what a sermon does. I'll quit now prior to taking up a collection.
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    Prayers actually kill in a couple ways. For one, when it's used a replacement for real medicine; quite a few kids die in the US every year from this cause.

    The other is the several studies that show a negative survival from the severely ill if they knew people were praying for them. Apparently it sets in a reverse placebo effect where knowing that others are praying for you it taken as a signal that death is knocking on your door, shakes your morale and contributes to giving up. Igal Moria & Ross Robertson: Prayer Doesn
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    Faith healers have complete faith that what they say is true. Therefore in their brain it is. The same thing with everyone else. If you believe that shit works completely it will. But it's very illogical. I prefer having a doctor tell me whats wrong rather than a "psychic"
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    No it won't as has been shown in all the double blind studies that have been performed over the years on various claims such ad faith healing and telepathy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis Jay Davenport View Post
    Faith healers have complete faith that what they say is true. Therefore in their brain it is. The same thing with everyone else. If you believe that shit works completely it will. But it's very illogical. I prefer having a doctor tell me whats wrong rather than a "psychic"
    Some doctors have faith that God heals. Those doctors go to various churches at various times. They are as varied as agnositc doctors and atheist doctors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Some doctors have faith that God heals. Those doctors go to various churches at various times. They are as varied as agnositc doctors and atheist doctors.
    That doesn't mean God heals, faith is not reality. It means they can't explain the physiological mechanism that promoted the healing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Some doctors have faith that God heals. Those doctors go to various churches at various times. They are as varied as agnositc doctors and atheist doctors.
    That doesn't mean God heals, faith is not reality. It means they can't explain the physiological mechanism that promoted the healing.
    For those doctors who believe that God exists and that he does heal they don't have to explain the physiology. Those same doctors don't have to understand the physiology of how Lazarus was raised from the dead, brought back to life by the command of Jesus, "Come forth." They merely believe. For them, faith is a reality. You, Zinjan, appear to lump all doctors together as one lump instead of a group of diverse individuals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    By the way, in the Bible - James 5:14 - James says, "Is anyone among you ill? He should summon the elders of the church, and they should pray for him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." What many people who read this do not understand is the "... anoint ... with oil..." was one of, and indicative of normal medical treatment of the day. In other words, Christians are to take proper medical steps - rest, drink plenty of water, don't pick at it, put a splint on it, make chicken soup, rub it with Vicks, get chemotherapy, whatever - AND pray about it.

    The concept of prayer and answers to prayer is simple and at the same time rather subtle. I find a decent explanation more than I feel I can enter here. Suffice it to say, the Bible does not teach that God is some form of Genie in a Bottle who grants wishes in the form of prayers. Nor is God a Heavenly vending machine that pops out toys or treats if operated correctly.
    Lazarus couldn't take chemo or chicken soup because he was dead .. he was brought back by the Word "Come forth." Of course, if you don't believe he was dead it just means that you don't believe it, not that he was not dead. I suppose maybe if we stretched the imagination the cat in the box could be a vague scientific simile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Well, considering that all the money spent on, for instance, prostate cancer, has not improved the survival rate, you have an excellent idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Well, considering that all the money spent on, for instance, prostate cancer, has not improved the survival rate, you have an excellent idea.
    So your purposely trying to decrease the survival rates?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Well, considering that all the money spent on, for instance, prostate cancer, has not improved the survival rate, you have an excellent idea.
    So your purposely trying to decrease the survival rates?
    Your logic is illogical. As medical science is not working at all, faith healing either has to improve the situation of maintain the status quo. If the faith healers are genuine, they cannot help but improve the situations.
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    Medical Science is working and to deny that and say that faith healing will improve survival rates will take us back to the 1600 hundreds when we were facing measles, mumps, pox, polio, etc... and praying for someone to survive these did nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Medical Science is working and to deny that and say that faith healing will improve survival rates will take us back to the 1600 hundreds when we were facing measles, mumps, pox, polio, etc... and praying for someone to survive these did nothing.
    Medical science is not working. Cancers are increasing. Death rates of some cancers are decreasing, but some are not, no matter how much science is wrought. Why are you so resistant to something that might possibly be a help to you someday? It costs nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Well, considering that all the money spent on, for instance, prostate cancer, has not improved the survival rate, you have an excellent idea.
    A bit disengenious considering there are proved ways to decrease the rate that are hitting the public Hormone Therapy Boosts Prostate Cancer Survival - Cancer Information (Cancers, Symptoms, Treatment) on MedicineNet.com

    We already showed scientific evidence that prayer can cause harm....

    Do you have anything empirical to suggest that faith healing actually works? If you don't than you contribution to this forum is nothing more than opinion and shouldn't be taken very seriously on science forum.

    Medical science is not working. Cancers are increasing. Death rates of some cancers are decreasing, but some are not, no matter how much science is wrought. Why are you so resistant to something that might possibly be a help to you someday? It costs nothing.
    Did you think we wouldn't notice the huge holes in that logic? Like the assumption that causes of cancer were about the same--not to mention age distribution, and better detection rates etc?
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarchus in Exile View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Instead of doctors why not put faith healers in every cancer ward or palliative care unit?
    Well, considering that all the money spent on, for instance, prostate cancer, has not improved the survival rate, you have an excellent idea.
    A bit disengenious considering there are proved ways to decrease the rate that are hitting the public Hormone Therapy Boosts Prostate Cancer Survival - Cancer Information (Cancers, Symptoms, Treatment) on MedicineNet.com

    We already showed scientific evidence that prayer can cause harm....

    Do you have anything empirical to suggest that faith healing actually works? If you don't than you contribution to this forum is nothing more than opinion and shouldn't be taken very seriously on science forum.

    Medical science is not working. Cancers are increasing. Death rates of some cancers are decreasing, but some are not, no matter how much science is wrought. Why are you so resistant to something that might possibly be a help to you someday? It costs nothing.
    Did you think we wouldn't notice the huge holes in that logic? Like the assumption that causes of cancer were about the same--not to mention age distribution, and better detection rates etc?
    Ah, some good news, as of 2011 in New Zealand regarding hormone treatment improving the odds. Good news.

    Huge Holes? Please detail.

    Empirical evidence? Yes, but you might say it's not relevant as it's first person, I might be fabricating, etc. How about something not first person, a man brought back to life by his wife after the doctors pronounced him dead. "You come back here!" she told him, taking him by the shoulders and shaking him. He came back. Good friends of mine. Of course, you will probably say, "he wasn't really dead" as if you were there in the hospital instead of the doctors who pronounced him dead.

    Scientific evidence that faith healing kills? You offered nothing of the sort other than 'Children die when denied medical treatment.' It might be science if you presented statistics proving those children would have lived if they had treatment. You offered no specific cases.

    Really, it doesn't matter anyway. When God wants us up there, we'll be up there.
    Search engines are such useful tools .. I wonder why more people don't use them?
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  37. #36  
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    Really, it doesn't matter anyway. When God wants us up there, we'll be up there.
    This is a warning. We welcome your contributions but only if they are part of the scientific conversation instead of continuously making broad unsupported statements mixed with preaching combined with an appeals to authority (usually the bible).
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Really, it doesn't matter anyway. When God wants us up there, we'll be up there.
    This is a warning. We welcome your contributions but only if they are part of the scientific conversation instead of continuously making broad unsupported statements mixed with preaching combined with an appeals to authority (usually the bible).
    You're right .. I forgot which thread I was in. So sorry. The word got out here in error.
    Search engines are such useful tools .. I wonder why more people don't use them?
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