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Thread: Fate or choice

  1. #1 Fate or choice 
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    I was inspired to write this after seening the post on religion being a scapegoat.

    There was something about God running our lives and we have no decisions and using this idea to blame ones problem on.

    What if there is in fact no time. What if what we call time is simply a way of perceiving a chain of events we have created. So in that sense our future is predestined but at the same time we are the ones who chose it. As if we are all one giant consciousness that is, for some reason that we have yet to perceive, creating this world we live in.

    Just another idea to think about, one that I personaly like alot.


    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  3. #2  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    time exist. thats it accept it. science have shown its a individual dimension that have nothing to do with our perception. it changes and twists all the time.

    when u dont KNOW the future its still flexible and able to change. so then there is a choice. but if u KNOW the future u have no choice that future will happen. and with KNOW i mean that u take a time machine and visit the future not use a crystal ball and shove it up somewhere.

    its like that old question, if a tree falls and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? of course it does. sound is mechanical waves in a medium and it doesnt matter if ure there or not the mechanical waves will be created when it falls and hits the ground. there for it still makes a sound.

    If this things didnt exist until there is something to sense it life would never have evolved ways too percept them. It need them to be able to evolve ways to percept them


    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman Captain_Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    If this things didnt exist until there is something to sense it life would never have evolved ways too percept them. It need them to be able to evolve ways to percept them
    If you're saying what I think you're saying it's that if time doesn't exist then there is no reason for us to percieve it, therefore we wouldn't. Here's a question for ya: Did the gods of mount Olympus exist?? I'd hope that you would answer no in which case I would then ask if the gods didn't exist then why did we percieve them to be real way back when? people back then didn't understand how stuff worked and needed some way to explain it and the gods is what they ended up at.

    Now lets say that the universe is so weird that there is no way to understand it (sounds a lot like our universe.. ) and all we can do is make presumptions on how it works (for example we presume that atoms have the shape we believe they have because we can't really just look at one and figure out what its shape is). Who's to say that time doesn't fall under this category? It's not like we can stop time while it's walking down the street and ask: "Hey Time... do you exist?" and since we can't do that we can't know for a fact that it exists. It could be some illusion made up by the mind to make sense of everything. There are unlimited different possibilities for how th universe works, there is no guarantee that the right one involves our concept of time.

    -EDIT- Why are we talking about whether or not time exists in the religion section?? :S
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  5. #4 Re: Fate or choice 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB
    What if there is in fact no time. What if what we call time is simply a way of perceiving a chain of events we have created. So in that sense our future is predestined but at the same time we are the ones who chose it. As if we are all one giant consciousness that is, for some reason that we have yet to perceive, creating this world we live in.
    Philosophies which do not help in dealing with the human condition and thus help in the living of our lives is meaningless. This is what we have learned from existentialism. The contents of human existence are the choices we make, for in them we find ourselves. It is true that we have no real control over the events which ultimately occur, making them somewhat irrelevant to our being, but the fact that our choices do have an impact on events is what gives our choices context and meaning. A denial of this impact is contrary to the reality of human existence. So, this philosophy of yours is alien to the human experience and as such it might be an appropriate philosophy for rocks but not human beings. Human life is filled with choices for which we bear the ultimate responsibility by becoming what we have chosen. Denial of that choice is a refusal to live. Trivialization of these choices and the refusal to acknowledge the responsibility diminishes human life.

    The Christian idea of the sovereignty of God is an important part of the Christian experience. The feeling that God is in control is an important validation of the experience that God has liberated us from our sinful nature and thus that our salvation is in the hands of God. Being an existentialist Christian, my experience of this sovereignty is not one of God's control over me but that the events of my life are the gift of God from which I can learn and grow in spirit to realize my greatest potentialities according to the God's desire for me. Thus although God is in control of my life, He is not in control of me, He liberates me from sin so that I can make free choices. Thus I never refuse to bear the responsibility for my own choices, just as I never fail to give thanks to God for making my best choices possible.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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  6. #5  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Anubis
    If you're saying what I think you're saying it's that if time doesn't exist then there is no reason for us to percieve it, therefore we wouldn't. Here's a question for ya: Did the gods of mount Olympus exist?? I'd hope that you would answer no in which case I would then ask if the gods didn't exist then why did we percieve them to be real way back when? people back then didn't understand how stuff worked and needed some way to explain it and the gods is what they ended up at.
    we have never percept them, we have just thought what we have seen to be by them. when the brain comes into the picture, i mean more complx brains, its no longer mere perception but also the decoding of information, back then a lightning was zeus, today its electricity, light, and sound
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  7. #6  
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Anubis
    Why are we talking about whether or not time exists in the religion section?? :S
    Well the original purpose of the post was to talk about whether we are controlled by fait or our choices. I was just using time as a way of explaining one idea.

    Great ideas so fair!!
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore wretched's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Anubis
    Why are we talking about whether or not time exists in the religion section?? :S
    Well the original purpose of the post was to talk about whether we are controlled by fait or our choices. I was just using time as a way of explaining one idea.

    Great ideas so fair!!
    I have no idea, some people think destiny is real and out there but I guess we have options, just think about it, what would have happen if I had done this instead of that ? I guess that answers your question.
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  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
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    Wretched's comment points out the differences in looking at things that many of us have. Wretched's focus appears to be on what was done and/or the results therefrom. That is basically a very scientifically oriented view. The relgio-philosophical view would not be so concern with the act or the results but the purpose which motivated the action and the desired result.

    Science generally focuses on the question of what and how. Religion and philosophy want to know those things only to attempt to answer the greater question -- why?

    DaBob's original question coupled with something I read recently is sort of a which came first, the chicken or the egg type of question. I was reading how perfectly adapted to life forms on earth the many apects of earth's make up are. For example, oxygen content of air is 21 percent. A little bit more and life could not survive the increase rate of oxidation; a little bit less and there would not be enough to support life. There were a number of other similar conditions explained.

    I probably agree with the writer that God wisely developed these conditions so that life as we know it would be sustainable. However, it also seems that if life began from chance events, this is the only type life that could have come into being here.

    So I suppose you end up with the question of whether God created these conditions to support His designed life forms or if the life forms were constructed to fit the conditions.

    As we all know, however, the egg did come before the chicken. Since a lifeform does not change in makeup from its birth to its death, any change of form would have to take place in the genetic combinations which go to make up the embryo. In the case of the chicken, the alligator would have had to lay the chicken egg before the chicken could have come into being. The scientifico's approach to this would focus on trying to prove how the genetic makeup of the alligator could have produced a chicken while the rest of us are just thankful, since chicken tastes a lot better than alligator.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  10. #9  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    religion asks why, that questions tells already they want a reason for everything, but they also asks who, wich mean they are looking for somekinda bieng to blame it on. those are none-neutral asking words. When u use them ure already looking for a specefic answer.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  11. #10  
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    I think we have a fate but, we choose it. We are faced with choices throughout our life and we choose a path. I don't think this path could have gone any other way, making it fate. So, whether time is linear or just a word to describe how we perceive events, at the end of te road we become our fate but, on the way we choose it; creating our own fate.

    I think I may have said the same thing multiple times but, whatever.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  12. #11  
    Forum Isotope Zelos's Avatar
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    i agree, aslongest u dont know the future. then there is no real free will until the day u knew comes
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  13. #12  
    Forum Sophomore wretched's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Wretched's comment points out the differences in looking at things that many of us have. Wretched's focus appears to be on what was done and/or the results therefrom. That is basically a very scientifically oriented view. The relgio-philosophical view would not be so concern with the act or the results but the purpose which motivated the action and the desired result.

    Science generally focuses on the question of what and how. Religion and philosophy want to know those things only to attempt to answer the greater question -- why?
    Sure, I guess we were correctly trained to think in that way... but what are the purposes, only can think about belief and values... that will never give us an answer, i guess.
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