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Thread: The Garden of Eden - Centre of the Neolithic Revolution?

  1. #1 The Garden of Eden - Centre of the Neolithic Revolution? 
    Forum Freshman paygan's Avatar
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    Hello there!

    My name's Paul and I'm on an important mission to show the world where the real Garden of Eden is after finding it in Rashaya, Lebanon in November 2009.

    http://files.fbstatic.com/PostImages...61cc7fdc34.jpg

    The Garden of Eden was a real place, and the centre of the Neolithic Revolution at about 9,500BC. It is located at the heads of the Dan, Banias, Hasbani and Upper Jordan rivers (that's 4 heads, as per the Genesis story AND in the Biblical lands), for more info please visit http://www.edentourism.com or http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk.

    This conclusion was comprehensively mapped out by Christian O'Brien in his 1985 book, " www.goldenageproject.org.uk/genius.php The Genius of The Few" where he identified it through descriptions given in the earliest Nippur Tablets (The Barton Cylinder, etc), Atrahasis and The Book of Enoch, along with the Bible and The Koran. The Sumerians who were first recorded to have written about it called it "Kharsag".

    Eden was located on Google Earth by Edmund Marriage in 2006, who discovered a mile long Great Watercourse in place as per O'Brien's map. I led the field walk recently in an initial survey which has provided the first video (unreleased) and photographic evidence of the site for peer review. Please see http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/k...research_2.php for both Google Earth and Christian O'Brien's placement of the remains of structures at this REAL place.

    O'Brien identified this site as the starting point of the Neolithic (Agricultural) Revolution at around 9,500BC, soon after the Younger Dryas. Inescapable evidence includes the the development of Jericho soon after this date, along with cultivated figs dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon and cultivated crops starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC.

    You can also see the ruins of a man-made reservoir, great watercourse and irrigation channels on Google Earth, along with other structures.

    The Garden was known as "Kharsag" in the Sumerian Nippur Tablets which means means "head enclosure". The entire Rashaya basin floods every 5-10 years with millions of cubic gallons of water, forming a huge lake that can still be partially seen on Google Earth from the last one in 2005-2006. We found out from the Lebanese Red Cross that they had put dye down a sinkhole in the Garden that drains the entire basin. The dye came out in the Hasbani. After seeing all this, I now strongly suspect that the people who built Kharsag's reservoir, dam and watercourse did so to control the Lebanese and Anti-Lebanese mountain run off waters and direct them out into the lowlands of "Eden", the area around and likely to the South of Kharsag, which links into the Jordan river and associated famous valley possibly onward to Jericho, etc.

    http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/edenflood.JPG

    The four headwaters I place as the Dan, Banias, Hasbani and Upper Jordan River rising out of the area around Eden / Kharsag and flowing into the Jordan. The final shape of the Book of Genesis is generally regarded to have taken place around 5-600 B.C. and most of the names have been changed from the actual places and people the stories are about. Mount Hermon for instance is recorded to have been known as Mount Sion in Deuteronomy 4:48. A name presumably somewhat pilfered by King David for Jerusalem's Mount Zion. The Rashaya Basin is 8 miles North of Mount Hermon, 25 miles East of Damascus.

    The centre of cultural diffusion at the time was the Garden, Kharsag, a bounded area in the mountains, sending out water and knowledge to the grassland/steppe area around, known as Eden.

    http://files.fbstatic.com/PostImages...0851ded56b.jpg

    The theories about Eden being a central site of the agricultural revolution between the Tigris and Euphrates are disproven archaeologically as there would have been ice-flows in this area as agriculture started in the North Western bend of the fertile crescent, not the South East... and that Sumerian civilization didn't move to Eridu, their first city until around 5,500BC.

    The Garden of Eden is a central feature in Christianity, Islam and Judaism - showing it's natural origins and archaeological source will in my opinion have the maximum potential as a weapon to destroy those religions and the fantastic voodoo they have spread in billions of people's minds.

    I'm looking to promote Eden, as I can see the benefits of archaeology catching up with religion and showing it's source as scientifically as possible. It's a search for human origins and the starting point of the agricultural revolution which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.

    I've spent a lot of last year working on Wikipedia, figuring out where I stand academically on this. It's been a fierce battle with hardcore sceptics, armed with little peer reviewed material as ammunition. It has resulted in the creation of pages (often after massive heated debates you can read about in the discussions) on Kharsag, Christian O'Brien, George Aaron Barton and The Barton Cylinder - mankind's oldest written story, supposedly pre-dating even the Pyramid Texts.

    There are various accounts of the Garden of Eden outside the Bible, including the Koran. Eden itself comes from the Sumerian word "Edin" meaning "plain" or "steppe".

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/k...ts_archive.php The Nippur Tablets, including the Barton Cylinder are most important source documents describing the location of the Garden of Eden, and it's inhabitants, the first Sumerian Pantheon (An, Ninkharsag, Enlil & Enki). These were dug up in the foundations of the temple and library at Nippur by John Henry Haynes in 1898 and translated by George Aaron Barton. These are the oldest religious/story texts in the world, pre-dating the pyramid texts by at least half a century.

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/e...onicals_01.php Slavonic Book of Enoch 2 produced around the 2nd century BC from materials with a much older tradition, discovered by Canon Charles and translated by his friend Dr Morfill, the Professor of Slavonic Studies at Oxford. It is from Morfill's work that we have the clearest accounts of the Garden of Eden.

    Also we have an Akkadian work, http://www.amazon.com/Atra-Hasis-Bab...6582310&sr=8-1 Atra-hasis, Tablet 1 which was copied by a scribe called Ku-aya, in the reign of Ammi-saduqa about 1635 B.C., from non-existant, earlier material. It is indicated that Ku-aya translated an earlier Sumerian tablet into Akkadian. Translations of the Akkadian text have been made by Lambert and Millard, two Oxford scholars following in the footsteps of Canon Charles.

    Atra-hasis tells the story of a rebellion of the workers building the Great Watercourse in The Garden of Eden and of them surrounding Enlil's Great House in a mob with tools raised. It then tells the story of the Annunaki council creating "salaried man" and causing a massive rift in our development from utalitarian to capitalist objectives as a race.

    From this we get various legends of "fallen angels".

    The starting point of the agricultural revolution is thought by many to be 'Eden', which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.

    Inescapable evidence that Anatolia being a bit too North include the the development of agriculture at Jericho before this, cultivated crops are also found starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC. Cicer arietinum L. (chickpea) and Vicia faba L. (faba bean, broad bean or horse bean) were found in late 10th millennium b.p. levels at Tell el-Kerkh. Cultivated figs were also dug up on the other side of Mount Hermon at Ohalo II, dated to 9,500-9,300 by Kislev et al not far from Kharsag / Eden.

    Sir Colin Renfrew's Anatolian Hypothesis is the currently most widely accepted among academics. This dates the start of the agricultural revolution to c. 7,000 B.C.

    My biggest problem with the Northern Theory, is Dame Kathleen Kenyon's excavations of Jericho, which shows organised agriculture long before that date to the South of both Anatolia (Turkey) and Lebanon :

    Kathleen Kenyon's conclusions
    Kenyon's excavations demonstrated that Jericho was originally founded by sedentary foragers/collectors in the Natufian Period (12,800–10,500 b.p.), living in large semisubterranean oval stone structures, although it is unclear how extensive this occupation was. With the introduction of domesticated plants in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic A period (PPNA) (ca. 10,500/10,300–9300 b.p.), Jericho mushroomed into a large regional agricultural community covering an area of some 300 square yards (25,000 sq m). Villagers, like those of the nearby sites of Netiv Hagdud and Gilgal I, lived year-round in roofed, oval semisubterranean dwellings.

    http://www.jrank.org/history/pages/6...#ixzz1Cp9a9gik Read more: Jericho - Digging Up Jericho, The Neolithic of the Near East - Neolithic, Bronze, Age, Kenyon, Excavations, and Period

    Pictured below is the ruin of a similar, oval, semisubterranean dwelling we found in the Rashaya basin (Eden / Kharsag) with a limestone plaster floor typical of other Neolithic finds dating to the time in question around this area:


    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7947.jpg

    Also of interesst at Jericho is the 600 metre x 9 metre x 3 metre rock cut ditch radio-carbon dated to a re-calibrated date c. 8,800 - 9,000 B.C.

    The Great Watercourse in Eden looks to have been approximately the same specification - 9 metres deep by 3 metres wide and extends over a mile, the sinkhole section is pictured below. I have added another image, as if you look carefully, you can see a rock cut bridge extending over this section, with a groove alligned to Mount Hermon, from which I speculate hung a giant Cedar sluice (water control) gate.

    http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/cavelrg.jpg

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...1/IMG_7397.jpg

    I would like to distinguish between Kharsag as the 'head enclosure' - which it literally means in Sumerian and Eden, which comes from 'Edin' meaning 'plain' or 'steppe' in Sumerian.

    I am suggesting, due to the size and scale of the watercourse, reservoir and features that this was a central site, far bigger than any others at this time that started a massive expansion in the 10th millenium that I would suggest as being caused by cultural diffusion of irrigation and farming techniques outwards from this location.

    Along with flood damage, extensive water erosion is shown on the best surviving limestone parts of the Great Watercourse indicating hundreds of years of water-flow.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7813.jpg

    Many sections have been bulldozed entirely to make way for orchards. The mound in the centre of the photo is one of the best surviving parts to the West leading to the Sinkhole.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7819.jpg

    Some sections are in slightly better condition leading back to the village of Kfar Qooq. All surviving sections are clearly visible on Google Earth.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7982.jpg

    Inside the ditch sections is full of rubble and rubbish, with few parts of the original walls in place exposed and most covered in feet of earth.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7796.jpg

    Please find some more pictures of the site of prime archaeological importance that is in danger from the bulldozers and construction in the basin.

    Here's the roadway up to the Great House of Eden area that's in danger of getting built on (the new house already going up there, is one of several under construction around the site).

    Any ideas how to protect and save it welcome!

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_8105.jpg

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_8206.jpg

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_8211.jpg

    What you can do to help? Well, click on the links, do some reading and if you're interested and support the promotion of this knowledge, spread it around other web-boards, friends and family. The Golden Age Project has some fascinating stuff on it, which you might have to wade through to find, but it's all in there somewhere and the site is looking a lot better than it did 18 months back. "The Genius of The Few" is probably the best book with the best info about O'Brien's location of Eden in Rashaya if you can't be bothered trawling the website for it and want a nice collectors edition.

    If anyone can assist to get a review of the above book into a major newspaper or peer reviewed journal - positive or negative - I can then go walkabout on Wikipedia again with a really big gun against the sceptics. If anyone wants the most amazing topic for a thesis, I cannot think of anything bigger than this.

    Also, if anyone wants to visit, I have the contacts to arrange a mind-blowing visit to the area in comparative safety and comfort, funding for pollen core analysis and geo-phys surveys surveys is required, along with further peer reviewable material and the attention of UNESCO and the Lebanese Ministry of Culture.

    More on that to come in my posts. Let me know if you have any questions as I claim to have a lot of knowledge about the Eden / Kharsag site.

    http://www.paygan.com/eden/kharsagsurvey.jpg

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/p...history_10.php - Further explanation in slide format

    http://Blogs.FanBox.com/FindingEden - My Blog


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    Most Muslims believe the garden starts near the intersection of the Tigris, Euphrates, and Shatt al-Arab near the small city of Al Qurna, Iraq.

    Mythologies are fascinating.

    The theories about Eden being a central site of the agricultural revolution between the Tigris and Euphrates are disproven archaeologically as there would have been ice-flows in this area as agriculture started in the North Western bend of the fertile crescent,
    I think that's very wrong--ice was hundreds of miles to the North.

    Come to think of it most of your post seems like junk science.


    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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    Forum Freshman paygan's Avatar
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    Well, the science made it onto Wikipedia in the form of a question section regarding the Younger Dryas which hasn't been satisfactorily answered:

    Was the Younger Dryas Global?

    Science still has much to understand about life back in 9,500 B.C. when this "mini-ice-age" ended and it is becoming established that Natufians in the Levant invented agriculture.

    If it was warm enough for agriculture in Southern Iraq, archaeology would have found some evidence of it there in the 10th millenium.

    There isn't even a precise definition of the "Younger Dryas" in all the records, which is why I'm here to discuss such points and learn from everyone else out there. All views welcome if we want to start that debate!
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    G’DAY BIBLE STUDY CLASS, Someone has located the Garden of Eden: it is now underwater, unfortunately, at the head of the Persian Gulf, near Bahrain. It was into this gulf that the Tigris and Euphrates rivers spilled their waters in antiquity. Nearby, the Karun river which bears a similar name to the Bible’s Gihon river—flows southeast through Iran towards the gulf. We discovered all this by using Google Earth. We have also located the Ark of the Covenant; it is in a secret chamber deep within the Temple Mount, underneath the present-day Dome of the Rock. It was hidden there by Jeremiah immediately before the Neo-Babylonian destruction of the temple in 586 B.C. We are leaving it there since there may have been five more Commandments than we previously thought, and we may have broken some of them.

    Tonight’s homework is to have a wild evening sitting around reading the Dead Sea Scrolls while drinking wine. Be prepared to act them out.
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    "a wild evening sitting around reading the Dead Sea Scrolls while drinking wine. Be prepared to act them out."

    *Flips to 4Q534 and finishes the bottle*
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    Good one; glad to see your humor. It's at least good for some social glue in between the serious stuff.

    I did read the Bible, as I was Catholic [until 5th grade], and so I am referring to some of my 4th Grade notes: God, not really being everywhere, moves about from place to place, walks around in the Garden of Eden, comes down from Heaven to see the Tower of Babel, the city of Sodom, and so on… So, God is neither everywhere nor knows everything, since he must come over to investigate things. As in… God asks Adam where he had hidden himself and asks Cain where his brother is. Nor is God invisible, as he can be ‘seen’ above, but has eyes, ears, hand, arms, fingers, and such; however, some who see him are ended by “No one can see me and live”. Moses was OK since he only saw the back of God. Abraham, Jacob, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and others also saw God. Actually, nowhere in the Bible does it say that God knows everything. I learned all these facts at St. Bernadine catholic grammar school, in Forest Park, Illinois, which is next to the Atomic Fireball factory that burned down once… but that’s another story.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paygan
    The Garden of Eden is a central feature in Christianity, Islam and Judaism - showing it's natural origins and archaeological source will in my opinion have the maximum potential as a weapon to destroy those religions and the fantastic voodoo they have spread in billions of people's minds.
    I doubt it destroys them. You'll become an honorary Jew/Christian/Muslim for finding Eden. Some YEC expert will find a way to get Eden moved to whatever co-ordinates you place it. It might as well be on Mars because it makes no difference to the deluded minds responsible for perpetuating the creation myth madness. You and your crack research team will put creationists on the front page of every newspaper in the world. It's giant steps backwards.

    But I don't think you're giving us the straight goods. I can't see why any bonafide scientist would want to prove Eden exists unless he/she has a motive. That motive is the exact opposite of the above quote.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    The Garden of Eden was a real place, and the centre of the Neolithic Revolution at about 9,500BC. It is located at the heads of the Dan, Banias, Hasbani and Upper Jordan rivers (that's 4 heads, as per the Genesis story AND in the Biblical lands)
    The so-called 'Garden of Eden' is about as real as Shangri-la, Lamuria, or Atlantis. There may have been, at one time, the tiniest kernel of truth to it, but it has long since been swamped by myth and propaganda to the point that no one could back up a claim that it "was a real place." Moreover, the so-called Neolithic revolution is more and more being shown not to have a true beginning, rather it is a continuum of existence that stretches gradually from the Paleolithic on through the Neolithic with many steps in between. There certainly is no "centre" since by the Neolithic period there are settlements formed or forming from Africa to the Levant to Anatolia and on up into Europe as well as Asia. One can find the headwaters of four rivers in many of these places -indeed a more likely location that gave rise to the Eden myth would very probably be at the bottom of what is now the Persian Gulf, where several rivers converge and "sweet" water is today upwelling from undersea springs that is drinkable by local fishermen and seafarers.

    Finally, there are plenty of Neolithic sites that date much older than 9,500 years ago in plenty of other places.

    This conclusion was comprehensively mapped out by Christian O'Brien in his 1985 book...
    Then we may read no further. Much of what O'Brien wrote of has been thoroughly discredited and his assumptions shown to be false, perhaps the product of conclusions to which he manufactured assumptions and "facts."

    Eden was located on Google Earth by Edmund Marriage in 2006, who discovered a mile long Great Watercourse in place as per O'Brien's map...
    Who? This person doesn't appear to exist in academia. What are the citations to his "discovery" as published for peer review? Until we see that, much of the discussion that follows is complete fantasy. It's speculation that fits data into conclusions already held, while ignoring other data. Your profile says you have an interest in archaeology, but this isn't how actual archaeology is done. I say that as an archaeologist.

    The theories about Eden being a central site of the agricultural revolution between the Tigris and Euphrates are disproven archaeologically as there would have been ice-flows in this area as agriculture started in the North Western bend of the fertile crescent, not the South East... and that Sumerian civilization didn't move to Eridu, their first city until around 5,500BC.
    No real archaeologist has a theory about Eden being a central site to anything. Some archaeologists, myself included, concede that the Eden story found in biblical mythology very likely has it's roots in earlier Mesopotamian myths, such as those that discuss Dilmun (the epic of Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta for instance). We also recognize a trend among early peoples of the Near East who recorded lands of origin for their cultures (Sumerians write of Dilmun, Hebrews write of Eden, Egyptians write of Punt, etc.), but these myths harken back to post-glacial but pre-Neolithic phases in prehistory when their smaller, more nomadic progenitors were still using oral tradition as writing was not yet developed.

    By the time writing comes along to a point at which it is reliable, only an elite few possessed mastery of the technology. An elite who could certainly have revised and redacted whatever semblance of their origin myths remained after many generations of being told and retold at campfires. Embellishments, invention, agendas, and desires surely all found their way into the myths as we know them now.

    The Garden of Eden is a central feature in Christianity, Islam and Judaism - showing it's natural origins and archaeological source will in my opinion have the maximum potential as a weapon to destroy those religions and the fantastic voodoo they have spread in billions of people's minds.
    Perhaps, but the archaeology of Eden is a folly. Even if someone stumbled on a site that was truly the settlement that gave rise to the history, that sparked the story that followed its emigrants, which became an oral tradition that was finally written as a myth... how would you validate it? What evidence could you possibly hope to use? The Eden of the Pentateuch is certainly not original (too many cognates and themes match earlier Mesopotamian myths). The stories of Mesopotamia are wide and varied... particularly with regard to the Sumerians whom the Akkadians of later centuries admired -so much so that they borrowed, created, and re-told many of the same stories (i.e. Gilgamesh).

    There simply would be no way to empirically establish a site to Eden. We can't even do it with Troy, which was recent by comparison.

    I'm looking to promote Eden, as I can see the benefits of archaeology catching up with religion and showing it's source as scientifically as possible.
    It's a noble effort and you aren't alone. There are many people using archaeology to explore the source of religion in humanity. But archaeology has no need to "catch up" to religion. There's no race between the two. Religion is superstition. Archaeology is science.

    It's a search for human origins and the starting point of the agricultural revolution which is currently best guessed at by Colin Renfrew's "Anatolian Hypothesis", which anyone knowledgeable on finds at Jericho, Tel Abu-Huera and around Mount Hermon may well speculate misses the facts by being a few hundred kilometres too North and a few hundred years too late.
    The "search for human origins" and the "starting point of the agricultural revolution" are two completely separate concepts, separated by up to millions of years and perhaps thousands of kilometers. In addition, I think you're misapplying Renfrew's hypothesis, more accurately referred to as the Neolithic Discontinuity Theory, which is more about Pre-Proto-Indo-European languages and the diffusion of people into Europe during the Neolithic. I think even Renfrew has backed down from this hypothesis as most evidence points to the Kurgan hypothesis. I think he now posits an "Indo-Hittite" version of NDT that's compatible with the Kurgan hypothesis in most regards, but I don't think either of the three have much to say about the Neolithic Levant.

    Eden itself comes from the Sumerian word "Edin" meaning "plain" or "steppe".
    This is certainly one thing I'll give you. And it's one of the reasons why many archaeologists who work with the Near East see early Sumerian culture as an obvious candidate as a key influencing factor for early Jewish myths as their stories are passed along to the Akkadians and then the Babylonians.

    Another is the Slavonic Book of Enoch 2 produced around the 2nd century BC from materials with a much older tradition, discovered by Canon Charles and translated by his friend Dr Morfill, the Professor of Slavonic Studies at Oxford. It is from Morfill's work that we have the clearest accounts of the Garden of Eden.
    I might be wrong, but the earliest bits of this text date to about 1 CE, not 2 BCE. Either way, the distance in time from this text to the Sumerian culture that is the likely progenitor of the Eden myth is over 3 thousand years. Texts of and related to the bible written after 2 Enoch are known to be fabrications, redactions, or seriously flawed. If 7th century CE writers couldn't be accurate with events of their own time, why should we expect 1 BCE writers to be accurate about periods that are further back in time for them they these very writers are for you and I?

    Inescapable evidence that Anatolia being a bit too North include the the development of agriculture at Jericho before this, cultivated crops are also found starting at Tel Abu Huera, not very far to the North by 9,050BC.
    I found this paragraph a bit ambiguous. I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. That the evidence is that Anatolia is north of Jericho and Abu Hureyra? That Jericho is part of Anatolia?

    Regardless, current evidence points to agriculture being developed in Anatolia at the site of Gobekli Tepi. Klaus Schmidt and his crew have recently uncovered a lot of signs that agriculture was present at about 10,500 to 11, 000 years ago, perhaps out of necessity to create a subsistence economy that could support the caloric requirements of building and maintaining the monumental architecture that began even earlier at 11,500 BP. Many of us are eagerly awaiting more publications from Schmidt and his crew.

    Sir Colin Renfrew's Anatolian Hypothesis is the currently most widely accepted among academics. This dates the start of the agricultural revolution to c. 7,000 B.C.
    That simply isn't the case and even the link you provided says so. Renfrew revised his hypothesis in 2003 and the dates correspond to about 5000 BCE -but this is about 7,000 BP, so perhaps you've mixed your dating strategies? Nevertheless, Renfrew's NDT is more to do with linguistics than agriculture -indeed, it really says little to nothing about agriculture.

    My biggest problem with the Northern Theory, is Dame Kathleen Kenyon's excavations of Jericho, which shows organised agriculture long before that date to the South of both Anatolia (Turkey) and Lebanon
    Regardless of the conclusions Kenyon reached in the 1950s, modern archaeology is hesitant to pin a firm date on agriculture that early in Jericho. Mostly because it's hard to distinguish between cultivation and agriculture. Still, I fully agree that the Natufian culture of the Levant was probably one of the leading innovators in agricultural technology and not to far from these dates. The Levant itself had a climate that lent itself to such innovation, which is why Jericho, Ain Ghazal, Abu Hureyra, and other settlements flourished. But these settlements were present before agriculture -and the evidence bears it out. What's more, there's good evidence that they shared cultural traditions closely with Neolithic settlements in Anatolia, such as Catalhoyouk and others.

    In conclusion, you've given no evidence or good reason to think that the Rahsaya basin is the site of the Eden in biblical mythology. Nor have you given good reason or evidence to suggest that Eden should be expected to exist in reality. Instead, your lengthy post and the site you link to throughout smacks of nationalist archaeology, that brand of pseudoarchaeology that seeks to promote a particular national heritage by starting with conclusions to which data are made to fit. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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    Forum Freshman paygan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Finally, there are plenty of Neolithic sites that date much older than 9,500 years ago in plenty of other places.
    Wikipedia cites the current earliest evidence of Agriculture discovered at Tel Abu-Hureyain North East Syria at c. 9,050 B.C when they were growing rye, lentils and einkorn wheat.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hureyra

    I should clarify my conjecture that the Rashaya Basin / Eden / Kharsag was "centre of the Neolithic Revolution", perhaps the "beginning" or "centre of Natufian culture". I'd argue against the dates of the Neolithic Revolution stretching out over as long as 3-5000 years. Why be so fuzzy? It had to start somewhere dates of the first founder-crops, emmer and einkorn wheat, then hulled barley, peas, lentils, bitter vetch, chick peas and flax are all around 9,000 B.C. in various sites in the Levant as shown on this map:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Spread.svg.png

    Recent 2006 discoveries of domesticated figs at Gilgal I[/url], North of Jericho at 9,400 B.C. are bringing this closer to Rashaya and are assisting to clarify the picture.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0602074522.htm

    Then we may read no further. Much of what O'Brien wrote of has been thoroughly discredited and his assumptions shown to be false, perhaps the product of conclusions to which he manufactured assumptions and "facts."

    Who? This person doesn't appear to exist in academia. What are the citations to his "discovery" as published for peer review? Until we see that, much of the discussion that follows is complete fantasy. It's speculation that fits data into conclusions already held, while ignoring other data. Your profile says you have an interest in archaeology, but this isn't how actual archaeology is done. I say that as an archaeologist.
    I should ask the question Who has discredited O'Brien's theories in this respect?

    Please do read more in "The Genius of The Few" and "The Shining Ones" - neither of which has had a peer review to date, to my knowledge. This is partly the purpose of my post, to find people, possibly like yourself SkinWalker, who can review the "Kharsag Thesis", positively or negatively, in order to give it bigger publicity on Wikipedia and inspire further debate and potentially comment from the Lebanese authorities, universities or UNESCO - or whoever can carry out the pollen core analyses and geo-physical surveys required for evidence prior to excavation.

    If you know of any peer review, or indeed discrediting of O'Brien's "Kharsag Thesis", then please let me know, or undertake one yourself. If not then I'd be interested to know who you would suggest could peer review those books? O'Brien was so many lightyears ahead in such a wide variety of subjects that his work seems beyond peer review for over 25 years and only seems to be gaining supporters.

    Professor Emilio Spedicato used the O'Brien material as did Andrew Collin's researcher and Philip Gardner's researcher. Having plagiarised and personalised the source material, they then did their own thing by including pure speculation, rubbishing O'Brien in the process. David Rohl was heavily influenced by Andrew Collins!

    the archaeology of Eden is a folly. Even if someone stumbled on a site that was truly the settlement that gave rise to the history, that sparked the story that followed its emigrants, which became an oral tradition that was finally written as a myth... how would you validate it? What evidence could you possibly hope to use?
    The bio-archaeological evidence for the suitability of the Damascus to Red Sea rift valley for agriculture as against the Anatolian highlands, Zagros and Himalayas is very important.

    A totally unique south facing site at around 3,000 feet (Hunza Valley must be twice this height and under the Great Younger Dryas ice field as was Lake Van at the early dates ! Snow melt ice dam breakage floods prevented early farming in both the Indus and Mesopotamian Valley's. There were not enough people until 5,500 BC to even begin to create the complex river based irrigation systems and great cities. You can see this in the chart showing the Holocene Climatic Optimums.

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/i...slides/ice.jpg

    The argument for placing Kharsag at the northwestern bend of the Fertile Crescent was based on the requirements for a) high mountains with a substantial, but seasonal, rainfall; b) isolated, inter-montane, alluvial plains or basins; c) deep, and narrow, ravines; and d) a climate capable of sustaining the ecology described.

    Look at all the items under Supporting Evidence (Kharsag Section) and have a look at the "Learning from History Part 10" as this should help on a number of key points particularly agricultural origins, with the head of the two rivers as the meeting place for the Divine Council (first Kharsag and later Baalbek - not Euphrates and Tigris -but the Orontes and Litanni), all the names for Mt Hermon, and the overall suitability of the site for snow melt irrigation for the first part of the year, and water storage for the remaining growing season. Winter storm water taken away when needed to the Wadi Nerab to avoid flooding problems.

    To better understand why I keep referring to this location as "Kharsag" as well as "The Garden of Eden", I'm going to copy out the old Wikipedia page about some little known texts used to validate O'Brien's work - the Kharsag Epics here for you. The article was (marginally) deleted because they are not verifiable due to no peer reviews of the naming convention of the texts, despite my argument establishing them as notable (because notability is not temporal). The Barton Cylinder page on Wikipedia was created as a result, which I consider highly notable as it is man's earliest religious (=story) writing.

    The Kharsag Epics is the name given by geologist Christian O'Brien to a series of epic poems from Mesopotamia (ancient Iraq) and are among the earliest known works of literary writing. Some esoteric scholars believe that these texts originated as a series of legends and poems about the earliest mythological hero-gods including An, Enlil, Enki and Ninkharsag in a location called Kharsag.[1][2][3][4][5] The Epics are contained in Sumerian tablets recovered by Dr. John Henry Haynes during the University of Pennsylvania's excavations at Nippur in 1896-1898 and translated originally by George Aaron Barton.

    Several of the epics were translated in 1918 by professor of Semitic languages and the history of religion George Aaron Barton under the title "Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions". They are dated considerably earlier than the Gudea Cylinders to at least the reign of Akkadian king Naram-Suen of Akkad (ca. 2190 – 2154 BC short chronology) and possibly as early as 2,500BC[8]. Barton originally dated them even earlier to 2704-2660BC according to Breasted's chronology.

    The first Kharsag Epic, as translated by Christian O'Brien begins "At Kharsag, where Heaven and Earth met, the Heavenly Assembly, the Great Sons of Anu, descended - the many Wise Ones"[9][10].

    The second Kharsag Epic, a reverse cut cuneiform cylinder, described by George Aaron Barton as "The oldest religious text from Babylonia" mentions Kharsag in the first line of the second verse - "The holy Tigris, the holy Euphrates, the holy sceptre of Enlil establish Kharsag"[11].

    The Sumerian text of tablet 8383 (as translated above) amounts to 268 lines of cuneiform though 19 columns of inscription. Of these 268 lines (as numbered for translation purposes) 226 are transcribed in whole or in part, with 42 obliterated lines unresolved. Christian O'Brien explained that there are actually 320 lines of inscription on this cylinder. A further analysis of all columns in the 1980s resolved some of the previous partial-line results and moved many more into translation[12].

    From columns I-VIII (1-8), three hitherto uninterpreted addresses by Ninkharsag were now evident. From columns IX-XV (9-15) was information concerning Enlil's great house (the E-gal) at Kharsag. And, from columns XVI-XIX (16-19), were additional details concerning the 'sickness' with which Enlil and his brother Enki were stricken. By adding in the supplementary translations O'Brien brought the overall 320 lines to a point of 82.5% completion.

    The stories revolve around the arrival of the Annunaki on Mount Hermon, their decision to settle in a nearby plain and establish a head enclosure (O'Brien translates Kharsag literally as "head enclosure") with reservoir, irrigation channels and agricultural buildings. Christian O'Brien's translations generally favoured less supernatural explanations, suggesting the epics were an agrarian, historical record of events and the establishment of agriculture at a historical location[13]. His index of the tablets, and their Museum numbers are listed below[14][15][16]:
    Tablet one

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 14,005

    The Arrival of the Anannage
    Tablet two

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,383

    The Decision to Settle
    Tablet three

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 9,205

    The Romance of Enlil and Ninlil
    Tablet four

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 11,065

    The Planning of the Cultivation
    Tablet five

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,322

    The Building of the Settlement
    Tablet six

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,384

    The Great House of Enlil
    Tablet seven

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,310

    The Cold Winter Storm
    Tablet eight

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Number 8,317

    The Thousand Year Storm
    Tablet nine

    University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Museum Numbers 19,751, 2,204, 2,270 & 2,302

    The Final Destruction

    Kharsag is overwhelmed by flood water, destroying the dam, reservoir and disabling the great watercourse.

    # ^ http://www.vm2000.net/31/calvet/ubaid.html Dr. Carlos Calvet, Wie die Sumerer nach Mesopotamien kamen und von den Pyramiden träumten
    # ^ http://interval.louisiana.edu/confer...ks/mose8-6.pdf A super-Tunguska event circa 1447 BC: a scenario for the Phaethon explosion, the Indo-Aryan migration and the Exodus events by Professor Emilio Spedicato
    # ^ http://www.2007-kandersteg.q-confere...-revisited.pdf GEOGRAPHY AND NUMERICS OF EDEN, KHARSAG AND PARADISE: SUMERIAN AND ENOCHIAN SOURCES VERSUS THE GENESIS TALE by Professor Emilio Spedicato
    # ^ http://www.unibg.it/dati/persone/636/418.pdf 54 theses for reconstructing Earth and human history during the catastrophic period 9500 to 700 BC by Professor Emilio Spedicato
    # ^ http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...watchers13.htm From the Ashes of Angels by Andrew Collins
    # ^ http://www.archive.org/stream/miscel...tuoft_djvu.txt Miscellaneous Babylonian Inscriptions by George A. Barton, 1918, Yale University Press

    All this can go back on Wikipedia, just as soon as it gets a peer review, positive or negative, to become verifiable.

    I might be wrong, but the earliest bits of this text date to about 1 CE, not 2 BCE. Either way, the distance in time from this text to the Sumerian culture that is the likely progenitor of the Eden myth is over 3 thousand years. Texts of and related to the bible written after 2 Enoch are known to be fabrications, redactions, or seriously flawed. If 7th century CE writers couldn't be accurate with events of their own time, why should we expect 1 BCE writers to be accurate about periods that are further back in time for them they these very writers are for you and I?
    http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

    The author of the early chapters of the three-part book of Enoch, which are those with which we are primarily concerned, has been shown by Burkitt to have been a Jew who lived in northern Palestine, southwest of the Hermon Range, near to the headwaters of the Jordan River. This is the very area in which much of the action described here is stated to have taken place. We do not know the source of the original material but it can be said with some confidence that the Books of Enoch were produced around the second century B.C. from materials with a much older tradition. That Sumerian tablets did not have any part in this scenario can be assessed from the fact that they had been buried under the ravages of war for many centuries.

    Despite these apparent limitations, Dr. R. H. Charles placed a great deal of value on the teachings of the Books of Enoch, stating:

    Nearly all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it, and were more or less influenced by it in thought and diction. It is quoted as a genuine production of Enoch by St. Jude, and as scripture by St. Barnabas. The authors of the Book of Jubilees, the Apocalypse of Baruch, 4 Ezra, laid it under contribution. With the earliest Fathers and Apologists it had all the weight of a canonical book. The citations of Enoch by the testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, and by the Book of Jubilees, show that at the close of the second century B.C., and during the first century B.C., this book was regarded in certain circles as inspired. When we come down to the first century A.D., we find it recognised as scripture by St. Jude.

    The main Book of Enoch contains an autobiographical account of the life of Enoch among the Elohim - in the area known as Eden which, as had already been suggested, can be identified from the text as the northwest corner of the Fertile Crescent, centred on Mount Hermon on the conjunctive borders of modern Lebanon, Syria and Israel.

    Enoch has much to do with the "Watchers", a large group of craftsmen-teachers who arrived in Eden as reinforcements for the third order of Elohim.

    Enoch VI:6 VB - And they were in all two hundred who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon...
    This translation is taken from the Greek, but the Ethiopic text confirms it:
    And they descended on Ardis which is the summit of Mount Hermon.

    Jared, the father of Enoch, was fifth in line of Patriarchs after Adam, and may have been born around 7,736 B.C.; the Watchers may have arrived about 7,570 B.C. - long after the original arrival in the Kharsag/Eden area by the original Annanage around 8,200 B.C.

    I wasn't sure what you were trying to say. That the evidence is that Anatolia is north of Jericho and Abu Hureyra? That Jericho is part of Anatolia?
    Kenyon's excavations at Jericho show by the averaging of six Carbon-14-dating results has demonstrated that, over a period from 9,070 to 8,030 B.C., there is no evidence of any solid structures being built on the natural gravel base at the bottom of the mound. But, immediately after the later date, the first houses of sun-baked, hard-finished mud brick occur. These had curved walls, inclining upwards, and appear to have been of a round, bee-hive pattern with mud floors.

    Before the next Carbon-dated layer, termed Stage IV, which gave a date of 7858 B.C. from the average of six samples, a sensational period of building took place. A free-standing Town Wall was built - perhaps 600 metres in circumference; this wall was 1.8m wide at the base and still exists to a height of 3.65m. Against the inner side of the wall was built a Tower, 9m in diameter at the base and 7m in diameter at the top, with a surviving height of 7.75m. This Tower was solidly built of stone; it's centre was a staircase leading from a passage which gave access to the Tower from the town, built remarkably sturdily with a roof of large, stone slabs, hammer dressed to a flat surface. Only Kenyon's own words can do justice to this first, known construction by man of a stone-built fortress:

    The whole thing is excellent in both architecture and masonry, and everyone who sees it finds it impossible to believe that it was built eight thousand years or more ago.
    In conception and construction, this tower would not disgrace one of hte more grandiose medieval castles.


    This quite remarkable development of Man, in the Jordan Valley, from hunter-forager to urban-dweller within stone fortifications that would have done credit to his descendants nine thousand years later. Kenyon further suggests other structures of this period were used for centralised water and grain storage for between 400-2000 people.

    Regardless, current evidence points to agriculture being developed in Anatolia at the site of Gobekli Tepi.
    Here you are fundamentally mistaken. Gobekli Tepi - whilst an exciting and artistic find - has no evidence of agriculture. It's inhabitants were hunter-gatherers.

    I cannot find anything about Klaus Schmidt's "signs" of agriculture here at that date and would be interested in further details of this evidence.

    Nor have you given good reason or evidence to suggest that Eden should be expected to exist in reality. Instead, your lengthy post and the site you link to throughout smacks of nationalist archaeology, that brand of pseudoarchaeology that seeks to promote a particular national heritage by starting with conclusions to which data are made to fit. Hopefully I'm wrong.
    Well, I hope I've provided more reason and evidence to consider, with a wide range of sources and sites upon which my, perhaps seemingly jumped-at conclusions are based. It's funny you call it nationalist, when i am not Lebanese. This is possibly the problem I am having getting the attention it deserves.

    I prefer to think of the revelation of the Eden site as 'global archaeology' of great importance for comparative religion and worthy of such challenging discussion!

    Thanks for the liveliest debate in a while! It's taught me a lot and will clarify my future work. As an archaeologist I would be really interested in your opinions of the images and initial survey map from my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I can't see why any bonafide scientist would want to prove Eden exists unless he/she has a motive.
    Getting the photos and videos of the site for peer review has cost me more than I care to mention. The Lebanon has been off limits to archaeologists for decades due to their troubles, even today are not rushing there in droves to dig things up with Hezbollah taking political control last month. My own site - www.edentourism.com is not particularly commercial - simply a vehicle to help interested parties investigate the site further oneday in comparatively informed safety.

    My motive in promoting the archaeology of Eden is to help give our kids a scientific world view to understand "religion" in context, which I believe simply used to mean "a way of life" in a logical, compassionate, utalitarian, non-superstitious, sense.

    I particularly like how the carvings at Gobekli Tepe, if it turns out to be the world's first temple, are all of animals in this regard. :-)

    This might sound weird, but I am hoping to promote a way of thinking where motives are more global than personal and see this as a problem with current academic thinking which I hope will lead to other amazing breakthroughs in the many areas still mysterious to us today.

    If the world worked with scientific logic in charge, instead of our current capitalist leaders, I'm sure scientific research would be better apportioned to the greatest needs of mankind.

    Questor might not have had his head filled with such a seemingly random assortment of mumbo-jumbo facts that must have confused the hell out of him until 5th grade
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    After my conversion to normalcy in 5th grade, but before falling in love with my nun in 6th grade [Another story], I looked even deeper into the beauty and the strangeness of the Bible since I was bored in school, and noted that: Many Bible stories were recorded in writing for the first time [they were oral before] long after the historical events described, thus creating a further history altered by hindsight, it being shaped by the intervening events. For example, the destruction of Solomon’s Temple is foretold in the books of prophecy written long after the event, foretelling what had already happened…

    Same for the New Testament, but only a few generations or so afterward… I also found some notes from Molly McGuire, but that is another story. (By the way, we raided the dumpsters of the atomic fireball factory and filled the empty desks with fireballs.)

    Unfortunately, my 6th grade nun ran off with our priest. I didn’t even know that little old me might have had a chance with her… I was afraid to ask to walk her home and all that. She was really quite beautiful, even mostly covered up.

    The original text of what was to become one of the Bibles that we might own today was actually translated numerous times, with each new generation imposing its own political and religious agenda on it. I had a Greek Septuagint version once. — 8th grade notes.

    In 7th grade, they had separated the girls from the boys—and so we all just got all the hotter for each other, then meeting after school and… but that’s another story.

    So, my notes say that Exodus looked somewhat suspicious: 600,000 men, along with women, livestock, and children, wandering around for 40 years in an arid wasteland, just because Moses, being a man, wouldn’t ask for directions. Also, there was no archaeological trace, so probably it was just a small thing that got way exaggerated. As for a conquest of Canaan, it already being full of the original israelite conquerors, it was really like “We have met the Canaanites and they are us”. As for David writing so many psalms, he didn’t really, for the Hebrew word for ‘of’ really meant ‘for’, as in “for David”.

    Please don’t be late for class tomorrow.
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  12. #11 Re: The Garden of Eden - Centre of the Neolithic Revolution? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by paygan
    Hello there!

    My name's Paul and I'm on an important mission to show the world where the real Garden of Eden is after finding it in Rashaya, Lebanon in November 2009.
    Is that anywhere near St. Louis ?

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/gardenofeden.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    I think that's very wrong--ice was hundreds of miles to the North.
    You are correct, I over-speculated here. The best evidence I've read seems to suggest during the Great Younger Dryas Ice Age approximately 40% of the planet was icebound according to some new evidence, the rest desiccated - not a local affair, but colder than any other period in the last 100,000 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Finally, there are plenty of Neolithic sites that date much older than 9,500 years ago in plenty of other places.
    Wikipedia cites the current earliest evidence of Agriculture discovered at Tel Abu-Hureya in North East Syria at c. 9,050 B.C when they were growing rye, lentils and einkorn wheat.
    First, I'm not disputing that wikipedia cites Abu Hureyra as the site of earliest agriculture. My passage above was to point out that there are Neolithic cultures older than 9050 BCE. By thousands of years. And across much space.

    Moreover, Wikipedia is a good general source of information, but there is evidence of agriculture being tried in many places contemporary to Abu Hureyra and even before (Gobekli Tepi in Anatolia, for instance). That we have good, solid evidence of agriculture at one site from antiquity in no way excludes it in other places in time and space even if the discovery hasn't been made. In other words, there is no good reason to assign an "Eden" based on the agricultural achievements of a single site.

    I should ask the question Who has discredited O'Brien's theories in this respect?
    Several. Here are some selected quotes from one such person:

    This book ["The Megalithic Odyssey"] is comprised of a mishmash of erroneous statements and poorly conceived and unsubstantiated arguments. It frequently ignores modern archaeological and archaeo-astronomical data, the interpretation of which conflicts with the proposed hypotheses.

    ... O'Brien does not present his data and methodology with sufficient detail and clarity to re-assess them in detail. There are several apparent contradictions in his text appertaining to the nature of the data, his methodology and the standars of accuracy to which he is working.

    [...]

    O'Brien seems to be ignorant of the fact that agricutlure had been fully established for well over a thousand years before the stone circles and cairns on Bodmin Moor were built. It is distressing that this kind of woolly-minded ehtnocentric diffusionism can be prpopsed today; it would have been considered poorly argued fifty years ago. Indeed the book is full of statements which only confirm O'Brien's ignorance of our current knowledge of prehistory. The bulk of data for interpreting Neolithci and Bronze Age Europe conflicts with his badly informed views.


    Please do read more in "The Genius of The Few" and "The Shining Ones" - neither of which has had a peer review to date, to my knowledge.
    After reading Barnatt's (1984) scathing but accurate critique of O'Brien's methodology, why would anyone bother? At this point, O'Brien's peers are Von Daniken, Michael Cremo, and Graham Hancock -crackpots every one.

    This is partly the purpose of my post, to find people, possibly like yourself SkinWalker, who can review the "Kharsag Thesis", positively or negatively
    Your "Kharsag Thesis", as you call it, postulates that the site of Eden as described in Biblical mythology is real and that it exists in Lebanon. This thesis fails utterly since it isn't based in actual science. You really don't want me contributing to Wikipedia ... though I may consider it since you invited me.

    Here you are fundamentally mistaken. Gobekli Tepi - whilst an exciting and artistic find - has no evidence of agriculture. It's inhabitants were hunter-gatherers.
    Ah, but it does. Indeed, one could apply economic theory to the site and conclude that agriculture had to have come about. At a village just 32 km from Gobekli Tepe, the oldest known domesticated wheat has been radiocarbon dated to 10,500 years ago. In addition, the scale of architecture would require a caloric intake that exceeds anything that could be had from hunting and gathering. To quote Ian Hodder, the principle excavator of Catalhoyuk in Anatolia, "[y]ou can make a good case this area is the real origin of complex Neolithic societies" (Curry 2008).

    Certainly there is evidence of einkorn cultivation if not domestication at Abu Hureyra by about 10,000 years ago, but the point isn't that either Abu Hureyra or Gobekli Tepe (or some other site) was the earliest to cultivate and then domesticate plants for subsistence (i.e. agriculture). The point is that this was happening all over the Neolithic world from Franchthi in Greece to Oholo II near Galilee (the latter, by the way, shows evidence of cereal exploitation reaching as far back as 19,000 years ago (Willcox 1999: 478). But, granted, exploitation isn't the same as domestication.

    I cannot find anything about Klaus Schmidt's "signs" of agriculture here at that date and would be interested in further details of this evidence.
    Agreed. I, too, am hungry for more details of his excavations. Unfortunately, there is precious little since he has been spending his time digging and not publishing -a sad reality of the field of archaeology: most of the science is a decade old (or more) by the time it finds its way to publication.

    Well, I hope I've provided more reason and evidence to consider, with a wide range of sources and sites upon which my, perhaps seemingly jumped-at conclusions are based.
    You haven't. I'm sorry, but much of your post seemed aimless, speculative, and spurious. And you haven't addressed the primary concern of how do you empirically pin a single site to a myth that contains zero reliability to reality? There simply is no good reason to think that the Eden story in Hebrew mythology is a genuine place. Your methodology isn't even flawed, it's absent.


    It's funny you call it nationalist, when i am not Lebanese. This is possibly the problem I am having getting the attention it deserves.
    It very well could be as this is the first perception I get.

    References

    Barnatt, John (1984). "The Megalithic Odyssey by Christian O'Brien (Book Review), Archaeoastronomy, 7, pp. 142-143.

    Curry, Andrew (2008). "Gobekli Tepe: The world's first temple?" Smithsonian Magazine, 39(8), pp. 54-60.

    Willcox, George (1999). Agrarian change and the beginnings of cultivation in the Near East: evidence from wild progenitors, experimental cultivation and archaeobotanical data. In C. Gosden and J. Hather (eds.), The Prehistory of Food: Appetites for Change. London: Routledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    In other words, there is no good reason to assign an "Eden" based on the agricultural achievements of a single site.
    Running through the village of Kfar Qooq, near Rashaya El-Wadi, there are the remains of a 600 million gallon reservoir and a mile long, 3m x 9m watercourse built to the specifications of Jericho's 600 m ditch. They make a pretty good reason for the designation. You can go and touch it and see the photos, admire it on Google Earth and hopefully soon video of me walking around on it.

    I should ask the question Who has discredited O'Brien's theories in this respect?
    Several. Here are some selected quotes from one such person:

    Barnatt, John (1984). "The Megalithic Odyssey by Christian O'Brien (Book Review), Archaeoastronomy, 7, pp. 142-143.[/quote]

    Several? This is the only peer review of "The Megalithic Odyssey" in 1984. O'Brien did not discover The Garden of Eden until 1985 in "The Genius of The Few".

    I repeat, no peer reviews or news articles exist to date of this book.

    This is why neither of us can write anything on Wikipedia about it.

    The mention of agriculture is taken completely out of context too. "The Megalithic Odyssey" is mostly a series of measurements and diagrams of Bodmin Moor's stone circles and giant cairns - in O'Brien's home country, the U.K. You can draw your own conclusions from his raw data, or you can go walking on Bodmin Moor and figure out yourself the route he took to find Eden. He made a speculation that upset the establishment - that selected circles and cairns were built and alligned as part of an astronomical complex. Barnatt has to resort to a very subjective type of mud-slinging review on a topic he clearly hasn't calculated and doesn't understand. This speculation is quite valid if the data is examined without prior condemnation.

    I would have hoped you would actually read the relevant book instead of this scathing article of his early work. O'Brien's best speculations about the builders of these sites do stick his neck on the block academically, but disregarded, his methodology, calculations and evidence of locating Eden / Kharsag is shown in detail there. Plus you might find his speculations insightful to some extent regarding an era of history already admitted to be very debateable area of science that is continuing to be enlightened.

    You have reminded me that I can update Wikipedia on such topics as Bodmin Moor's circles (notably lacking), the Wandlebury-Hatfield Loxodrome with this verified source. So I should probably thank Barnatt for publishing anything.

    Your "Kharsag Thesis", as you call it, postulates that the site of Eden as described in Biblical mythology is real and that it exists in Lebanon. This thesis fails utterly since it isn't based in actual science.

    Ah, but it does. Indeed, one could apply economic theory to the site (Gebekli Tepe ) and conclude that agriculture had to have come about.
    So your argument is that an 'economic theory' with no physical evidence can conclude where agriculture started, but a real, physical site with features you can see with your own eyes on Google Earth, measure, Radio-Carbon 14 date, pollen-core sample, geo-physical survey and various sites you can excavate somehow just doesn't exist?

    Is it not the purpose of science to take these measurements and carry out these tests that might advance old theories and provide greater understanding of the world we live in?

    I would argue there is a greater level of faith-based science involved here than my conclusions drawn from written historical evidence, confused with mythology or not. Even questor recognises it's importance and relation to evidence of historical events, just as I recognise that his record provides evidence of the ruins of an Atomic Fireball Factory out there in Illinois. (Loving the comic relief to this thread btw).

    [quote]The point is that this was happening all over the Neolithic world from Franchthi in Greece to Oholo II near Galilee (the latter, by the way, shows evidence of cereal exploitation reaching as far back as 19,000 years ago (Willcox 1999: 478). But, granted, exploitation isn't the same as domestication.[/quotel]

    Oloho II, and Gilgal I make excellent supporting material for the Kharsag Thesis. Archaeologists could not get much further North than Galilee before more problematic areas for research in The Golan and Lebanon. This is just over the border from Mount Hermon.

    Now if we are going to discuss pinpoints, there is a lot of science to this, as shown below:

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/i...harsag/k21.jpg

    Crop Assemblage in the early neolithic farming villages in South West Asia before 6,000 BC (uncalibrated radiocarbon dates) – Black squares indicate earliest sites dated to 8th millenium – Black circles later dates – Short whisker rare – Long whisker common (Adapted Zohary and Hopf 1993)

    Zohary makes the suggestion in his paper about the development of cultivated grains having to have come from a single site. Quite a good analysis of this debate is provided by Steve Gagne here:

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/965.php

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/i...07_475x315.jpg

    Ten Probable Centers of Origin of Agriculture

    From Tracing the Origin and Spread of Agriculture in Europe
    by Ron Pinhasi, Joaquim Fort, Albert J. Ammerman.

    The above maps show the ability to identify and accurately date a wide range of plant and bone remains, and reach reliable conclusions on the domestication of wild seeds and animals, provides examples of the many related sciences, which now allow history to be reconstructed in great detail. The earliest and therefore the most important sites for Near East Agriculture are Jericho, Tell Aswad and Abu Hureyra.

    Since this information was compiled further discoveries with dating, emphasise the focus on Southern Lebanon as the source for the diffusion of domesticated agricultural crops and animals.

    Domestication of Plants by Lloyd Pye - 2006

    Domestication of plants and animals supposedly began as early as 11,000 years ago in the Fertile Crescent of the Near East (light brown area below). Two thousand years later it began in the New World in the highlands of Central America. This is puzzling because crops grown at altitude are much more labour intensive than in valleys. Also the technological leap from wild grains and grasses to useful foodstuffs has not been duplicated by modern botanists. No useful domesticated plants have been created for the last 5,000 years. So how did Stone Age hunter-gatherers living in mountains decide to miraculously converting wild grains and grasses into edible foodstuffs? As with megalithic structures, it seems highly improbable that ordinary humans could have done it

    Geological Hazards of Lebanon by C.D. Walley

    A main concern in Lebanon is that of earthquakes as the area is in an active region. Beirut has been destroyed many times by earthquakes and tsunami (tidal waves), most notably in 551 AD. Lesser quakes have occurred since. Even small earthquakes may have triggered landslides. A subtler hazard is that of soil erosion. The steep slopes of Lebanon and the high rainfall means that the soils, in many cases the product of thousands of years of formation, are easily eroded. These soils are not being replaced. Related to this are widespread landslides on various scales due to the steep slopes, wet winters and de-forestation. Geology has largely controlled the history of Lebanon. It has given the region its fertility with the high rainfall and excellent springs. However, this is localised, demands hard work to farm due to the steep slopes, and is easily destroyed. As a result wealth based on agriculture has not proved easy. Many Lebanese have traditionally migrated or gone into commerce. - Project Note - Deposits of sediment and erosion by water will create both problems and opportunities with the geophysical surveys and sediment core sampling required by the proposed research.

    Methodology

    As far as we know there has not been a full archaeological or environmental survey carried out on the site in the last 36 years. Dissertation research carried out by Lee Marfoe in 1979, who until his death in 2003 was the assistant professor at John Hopkins University and the Oriental Institute/NELC, was concerned with the long-term development of settlement, population and society in the Beqaa Plateau in the Lebanon. We hope that our initial survey, together with available works by others, will encourage a wide range of contributions to add significantly to the knowledge and understanding of site.

    Ordered protohistoric agricultural people became evident in the archaeological record at about 10,000 BC, in the Near and Middle East, and comparative research by:

    Zohary 1999
    Hillman 1996
    Postgate 1994
    Maisels 1994,1993
    Fagan 1990
    Wenke 1990
    Clutton-Brock et al 1989
    Nissen 1988
    Clark 1977

    confirms this, indicating the tenacity of human populations to occupy and settle in post-glacial environments (Holocene).


    I believe I have gathered together the above key scientific evidence supporting the delivery of an existing farming package and confirmation of a 'Biblical' diffusion from Southern Lebanon, from perhaps as early as 8,750 BC, if the recalibration of old dating methods and recent dating techniques ultimately prove accurate.

    Over time it will be necessary for further contributions to be made by others to prove or disprove this basic thesis. Fortunately there are many other sources available yet to be fully explored, and a great deal of old evidence, which we hope to recover and re-present in our collective search to piece together and confirm the more detailed record.

    References:

    Origins of Agriculture by Professor Daniel Zohary – 1993

    Tracing the Origin and Spread of Agriculture in Europe Ron Pinhasi, Joaquim Fort, Albert J. Ammerman.

    THE ORIGINS AND SPREAD OF AGRICULTURE AND PASTORALISM IN EURASIA - Edited by Professor David Russell Harris
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    [quote="paygan"]
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Running through the village of Kfar Qooq, near Rashaya El-Wadi, there are the remains of ...........a mile long, 3m x 9m watercourse built to the specifications of Jericho's 600 m ditch.
    To what extent (i.e. what are the error bars) does this watercourse match the Jericho ditch specifications?
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    Again, I repeat: there's no denying that the Near East is one of the likely places that agriculture began. Indeed, it may very well have started in the Near East prior to anywhere else.

    But the data to conclude this isn't complete. Sites from the Neolithic only preserve well under ideal conditions, so those Neolithic sites that once flourished below modern sea levels, or have long since been obliterated by the environment are lost to us.

    Still, even if we concede that the Near East was conducive to the domestication of plants (and animals), it's still a VERY LARGE leap to saying any particular site is that of a religious mythology.

    You haven't made this case and it cannot be made given the circumstances. You would first need to show that 1) "Eden" was a real place; 2) that a given myth's description of "Eden" is accurate or trustworthy; 3) that there are elements within the myth(s) that can be empirically tested; and 4) that these elements could not exist anywhere else in space or time.

    Thus far, all you've done is cite the works of pseudoscience to make your case.

    O'Brien's methods have been fully discredited. Are you saying he changed his methods from one book to another? Wouldn't this bring question to his consistency? O'Brien's work is no more deserving of review or consideration by academia than are the works of Von Daniken or Sitchin -these are O'Brien's peers.
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    [quote="Ophiolite"]
    Quote Originally Posted by paygan
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Running through the village of Kfar Qooq, near Rashaya El-Wadi, there are the remains of ...........a mile long, 3m x 9m watercourse built to the specifications of Jericho's 600 m ditch.
    To what extent (i.e. what are the error bars) does this watercourse match the Jericho ditch specifications?
    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...1/IMG_7370.jpg

    Shot of the best preserved section around the sinkhole. With me in perspective to judge dimensions approximately 3 m deep x 9 m wide. I am an inch or 2 shy of being 6 feet tall. You can judge it's error bars yourself.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7819.jpg

    View of section leading towards Kfar Qooq. This is naturally deep in the earth and covered with rubbish. Still very visible however with exposed sections showing thousands of years of water flow erosion.

    Superb point! I have taken my data from The Golden Age Project website quoting from a book called "Wonders of the Past" that the Jericho ditch was 600m around x 9m deep x 3m wide.

    Further research shows it recorded at 27 feet wide by 9 feet deep, approximately 9 m x 3 m.

    EVOLUTION AND PREHISTORY: THE HUMAN CHALLENGE
    By WILLIAM A. HAVILAND, HARALD E. L. PRINS, DANA WALRATH, Bunny McBride

    http://goo.gl/LVRWF

    I looked further and found this 9m x 3m data has also been taken from the similar but later rock cut ditch at Tell-es-Sultan, it is however cited as being in the style of the Natufian people Kharsag would date to.

    World prehistory: a new outline By Grahame Clark

    http://goo.gl/quSBO

    I should point out that the word for watercourse, irrigation channel, canal and river are very confused in Old Babylonian Cunieform and the vertical picture language it evolved from.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Still, even if we concede that the Near East was conducive to the domestication of plants (and animals), it's still a VERY LARGE leap to saying any particular site is that of a religious mythology.
    I think this is a core area where the O'Brien thesis is escaping serious examination and not being properly understood. He theorises his group of exceptionally old Sumerian texts and his translation of the Barton Cylinder and other Nippur Texts referred to people, not Gods, as per mainstream archaeology or Aliens (as per Stitchin and Daniken), before the start of "religion" as we know it in it's modern form. O'Brien and his wife spent many years studying the history of religion and I believe their methodology accurate in many respects and worthy of serious academic consideration and further research.

    You haven't made this case and it cannot be made given the circumstances. You would first need to show that 1) "Eden" was a real place; 2) that a given myth's description of "Eden" is accurate or trustworthy; 3) that there are elements within the myth(s) that can be empirically tested; and 4) that these elements could not exist anywhere else in space or time.
    You are right to remind me of good methodology in preparation for a thesis on this subject, but I am trying to make the case for 1) 2) and 3) in posts such as that above with empirical and photographic evidence about the site. 4) is always going to be hard as mythological history can involve combinations of events. They can however relate to history, and you can have competing views on the inspiration for stories. I could name loads of sites found in archaeology named in the Bible and connected to events within it.

    O'Brien's methods have been fully discredited. Are you saying he changed his methods from one book to another? Wouldn't this bring question to his consistency? O'Brien's work is no more deserving of review or consideration by academia than are the works of Von Daniken or Sitchin -these are O'Brien's peers.
    People are allowed to change and learn as is science - "The Genius of the Few" is a very different work from "The Megalithic Odyssey" on a very different topic. Elements of these theories are all up for challenge, and loads has been learnt and changed in 25 years but 'discrediting all later work' is a bit harsh..

    Reading O'Brien (or listen to his lecture for free) will show he doesn't at any point burst out and start talking about Aliens, which for a start puts him in a different category to the pseudoscientists you mention. Will be back with more discussion soon, but will leave you with some pictures of the reservoir O'Brien calculated would hold 600 million gallons at capacity. I'll have to a measuring rod or similar device if I go back to figure out the error bars on this. It's clearly marked on O'Brien's original map, my initial survey and Google Earth leading down from the mountains into the Rashaya Basin South:

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/dam/IMG_8237.jpg
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    Thank you for your detailed response. Allow me to make some comments.

    I am surprised (and not a little disappointed) that you think the dimensions of an extensive construction can be properly assessed from a single photograph of a portion of that structure. Either you are unskilled in practical archaeology, or you are not treating my question seriously. I would welcome alternative explanations.

    You then present radically contradictory dimensions for the Jericho ditch. It is either 9m deep x 3m wide, or 3m deep by 9m wide! Moreover the source for one of these measurements is an obscure website quoting an unknown book of unstated authority!!

    In short, based upon what you have presented so far there is no justification for your statement that "the Kfar Qooq watercourse matches the dimensions of the Jericho ditch". We have two large, ancient ditches in the Middle East. I am sure there are many more. I would not be surprised to learn that several have broadly similar dimensions: the practicality of digging ditches requires that. However, tying one specific ditch to another is unwarranted, suspicious and certainly unscientific. Scepticism about your own ideas seems absent from your writing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Thank you for your detailed response. Allow me to make some comments.

    I am surprised (and not a little disappointed) that you think the dimensions of an extensive construction can be properly assessed from a single photograph of a portion of that structure. Either you are unskilled in practical archaeology, or you are not treating my question seriously. I would welcome alternative explanations.

    You then present radically contradictory dimensions for the Jericho ditch. It is either 9m deep x 3m wide, or 3m deep by 9m wide! Moreover the source for one of these measurements is an obscure website quoting an unknown book of unstated authority!!

    In short, based upon what you have presented so far there is no justification for your statement that "the Kfar Qooq watercourse matches the dimensions of the Jericho ditch". We have two large, ancient ditches in the Middle East. I am sure there are many more. I would not be surprised to learn that several have broadly similar dimensions: the practicality of digging ditches requires that. However, tying one specific ditch to another is unwarranted, suspicious and certainly unscientific. Scepticism about your own ideas seems absent from your writing.
    I am sorry to dissappoint, but must clarify my typo, all 3 ditches were built 9m wide by 3m deep, which is a big ditch, more like a canal. Kenyon suggested the one at Jericho could only have been made with "Rock mauls, fire and water", meaning these were no small undertaking for the people of this era with the materials available to them. I seriously doubt many others than Jericho's have been found dating to this period.

    Kharsag / Eden's ditch is over twice as long, and there is more than just a ditch and 1 photo here, I have provided 2 and below is another of the exposed watercourse setion at the sinhole, along with the Western section, which is less intact due to bulldozing. Let me know if you want more images, I could use some help to judge the best ones from the hundreds we took on the initial survey. There are various images of the dykes, wells, housing structures, and the hilltop of the Great House. This is not like Higgs Boson or Dark Matter, you can run off and confirm this theory a lot easier, and there's nothing to lose if O'Brien or I am proved wrong in some or many respects. If the Kharsag Thesis turns out correct, however, and very early agriculture is radio-carbon dated here, then this site needs immediate action to secure UNESCO World Heritage status before we destroy the most important archaeological site on the planet.

    http://www.skyshot.co.uk/eden/rachai...2/IMG_7819.jpg

    http://www.paygan.com/eden/images/cavelrg.jpg

    I have to admit, I have some absence of scepticism as I have studied "Genius of the Few" and O'Brien's maps and the Google Earth images in detail, then gone to Lebanon and found matching structures in place. It is hard to be sceptical of something you've seen with your eyes, walked on with your feet and touched with your hands.

    O'Brien's maps and Google Earth placements can be seen here:

    http://www.goldenageproject.org.uk/k...research_2.php

    O'Brien made a large number of calculations and conclusions about placements, including the size of the reservoir at 600 million gallons. They all approximately match up with the survey map below which shows actual placements:

    http://www.paygan.com/eden/kharsagsurvey.jpg

    Hard evidence will only come from radio-carbon dating pollen cores at the site and proving agriculture there around 9,000 B.C., believe me, I understand your frustrations and dissappointment this concrete proof is not laid out in a scientific paper organised to Skinwalker's standards.

    We do the best with what we have, which currently does not include the resources for this.

    In the meantime however, tiny steps are taken and I can only hope more people will become interested in what evidence we have to investigate further.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Aswad

    I was shocked to find that there wasn't even a Wikipedia page about Tell Aswad last night, which is a very interesting, and closer site to Rashaya / Kharsag / Eden displaying numerous similarities, which can also be seen in the satellite imagery here. They have evidence of agriculture here exceptionally early, right next to Kharsag.

    http://www.archatlas.dept.shef.ac.uk...php?name=aswad

    I am beginning to consider it better supporting evidence than Jericho or Tell Abu Huyera. Getting the exact radio-carbon dates of agriculture at Tell Aswad and matching similarities with Kahrsag / Eden is a great area of research.

    I created a basic Wikipedia page on Tell Aswad last night. Anyone fluent in French or German wanting to help me further update it from original reports would be welcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by paygan
    Well, the science made it onto Wikipedia in the form of a question section regarding the Younger Dryas which hasn't been satisfactorily answered:

    Was the Younger Dryas Global?
    Never did answer this question.

    The short answer is yes, though it seems to be much stronger in the Northern Hemisphere.

    --
    I find this entire thread rather odd in any case. If you accept the mythology than man left the area before there would be anything to find anyhow.

    There was another question about finding remains in Southern Iraq. The area, even today is very rural and anything left would be buried under many meters of silt from periodic flooding that happened until very recently. About the only excavation would have been Saddam's massive canals and dams that he built to reroute the rivers and essentially kill of the Marsh areas along with the culture that lived there. If Saddam's Army of bulldozers uncovered anything it likely would have been destroyed because the last thing he wanted is to reinforce the position of the Marsh Arabs who claim they've been on their land for thousands of years. Those Marsh people still build mostly out of grasses--including large homes and meeting halls or sun dried sun bricks neither of which last more than a few decades at best.

    The area would have plenty warm enough for thriving agriculture and fertile as well even at the peak of the Younger Dryas. Make no mistake though I'm not proposing Southern Iraq as where the garden of Eden was--I think it's pure mythology. As for first agriculture on a massive scale river deltas appear the best bet, and during the Younger Dryas those were mostly below modern sea level, subsided as all delta's do, and buried under many meters of silt.
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    The problem for agriculture immediately following the Younger Dryas at 9,500 B.C. seems to have been lack of water with most settlements, like the Clovis People in America starting in the hills and roaming more gradually into the valleys. It would be theorised that the people of Kharsag settled around the Hermonn range and used the ice melt to setup their community.

    This is shown by the spread of dates for early agriculture starting in the Levant c. 9,000 and into Iraq with impressive sites like Jarmo forming an agrarian community by c. 7,000 B.C.

    I accept the mythology as largely metaphorical. I am in no way a biblical literalist!

    Adam and Eve getting thrown out of the Garden to go and farm is quite a simple metaphor for the agricultural revolution.

    Do please have a look at the photographs and let me know what you think. The watercourse is mostly covered in silt and earth apart from the sinkhole and reservoir sections, but clearly visible. Even on satellite imagery. This forum doesn't seem to display pictures for me yet. I'm hoping it will when I reach enough posts.

    I thought I'd also post a key quote from Professor Daniel Zohary about the likelihood of 1 domestication event for most of the founder crops. The mythological and religion talk involved in the discovery of the site seems to be obscuring it's scientific importance to preserve for World Heritage:

    Some of the available genetic evidence (such as chromosome polymorphism in lentil, chloroplast DNA polymorphism in barley, sibling species in tetraploid wheats, the nature of the loss of wild-type seed dispersal and germination inhibition) already appear to be highly indicative. Taken together with the floristic information on species composition, they suggest that at least emmer wheat – the most important crop of Southwest Asian and European Neolithic agriculture – as well as pea and lentil (the main legumes) were each taken into cultivation only once, or at most only very few times. Evidence pertaining to the mode of origin of einkorn wheat, chickpea, bitter vetch and flax is much more meager, yet the data seem to be compatible with the notion of a single origin in each case. Only barley, where two different non-shattering genes (bc and bt) have been discovered (Takahashi 1964), is there an indication that this important crop has been taken into cultivation more than once. Yet even here the chloroplast DNA data suggest that only very few events have occurred.

    In conclusion, the available data, fragmentary as they are, appear to support the hypothesis that the development of grain agriculture in Southwest Asia was triggered (in each crop) by a single domestication event or at most by very few such events.


    From The Origins and Spread of Agriculture and Pasturalism in Eurasia edited by
    David Harris
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    Quote Originally Posted by paygan
    The problem for agriculture immediately following the Younger Dryas at 9,500 B.C. seems to have been lack of water with most settlements,
    Settlements that today are above sea level might have lacked water, though I doubt it as a general rule because there were some very large rivers during the Younger Dryas. There wasn't a lack of water along the large rivers and like today many of them had fertile deltas and large areas flooded seasonally. Those river mouths and what ever archeological remains are now under hundreds of feet of water.
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    I have learned a few things in this thread, one of which to trust Wikipedia even less.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I have learned a few things in this thread, one of which to trust Wikipedia even less.
    The good thing about Wiki is you can look at the references and discussion and usually figure out whether it's credible or current information. I consider that a heck of a lot better than traditional encyclopedia which seldom had an easy to way to fact check.
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    This is true and it will remain a valuable resource for me, but in the past I used to often just pop in to read something interesting, but relatively ineffectual, without bothering to check references. Not any more though.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    The major problem I have with wikipedia is that it often presents minority dissenting opinions, which may or may not be valid, as equivalent to prevailing ideas. But I think it is in general a good source for "solid facts," dates and pretty well solidly established facts are pretty reliable on wiki. Stuff that involves debate, or is more nuanced, requires more reading and contextualization than what wiki articles generally provide.
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    I am loving how this post has now turned into a criticism of Wikipedia Rules thread!!

    Thanks for reading and consideration guys.

    It's threads like this that create new Wiki pages and get it closer to the truth.

    Wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Aswad ) Tell Aswad or ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Ramad ) Tell Ramad - the closest Archaeological sites to Eden / Kharsag with evidence of agriculture at the expected dates - they weren't there a week ago and now due to further questions, research and the progress of science, they are! :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The major problem I have with wikipedia is that it often presents minority dissenting opinions, which may or may not be valid, as equivalent to prevailing ideas. But I think it is in general a good source for "solid facts," dates and pretty well solidly established facts are pretty reliable on wiki. Stuff that involves debate, or is more nuanced, requires more reading and contextualization than what wiki articles generally provide.
    Contributors and editors are getting better at taging contrivery, unreference or discredited materials as well so readers aren't dependent of looking at the discussion tabs or trying to fugure out if the references are from credible peer-review journals.

    This new wiki page will probably carry a bunch of warnings in due time because it doesn't meet accepted scientific standards.
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    Paygan,
    your enthusiasm is admirable, your discretion less so.

    The work on which you place so much faith (and it looks a lot like faith) has been roundly discredited. Your dimensions on the ditches are suggestive of a precision that seems unlikely to be achieved based on the condition of the ditches. You seem to arguing that because this was an early site of agriculture it was the first site of agriculture. Your arguments are all over the place and consequently confusing.

    Would you please summarise the three or four main points of your thesis, wihtout sideways excursions and irrelevancies. A true executive summary,, please.
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    Wow! That's a brilliant idea Ophiolite!

    Try this for an executive summary:

    1. There was a famous settlement known as Eden / Kharsag near modern Rashaya El-Wadi , Lebanon that got written about, along with the people who lived there (often confused with "Gods") in certain ancient literature (the older the text, the more obvious).

    2. This settlement was also the Origin of Agriculture as the earliest and largest central site of the Neolithic Revolution in the Central Levant. (PPNB "Explosion of knowledge" that triggered the Agricultural Revolution where we started domestication of plants). It was destroyed in the "Hiatus Pallestinen" or "Flood", recorded in the Rift Valley area before people moved East to Sumer.

    3. Christian O'Brien mapped out this place from various sources in 1985 and died 2001 before his theory could be peer reviewed, Edmund Marriage matched tge features with satellite imagery in 2006 and I field-walked the site in 2009 with a friend to get photos and videos on the ground and a survey map. We found features matching this PPNB stage - 1 mille Great Watercourse cut through limestone bedrock same specs as Jericho's ditch, house structures facing East like Tell Aswad, limestone plaster, dykes, wells, dam and reservoir, Great House site, flooding phenomena, etc. The suggested site of Eden / Kharsag's Great House was in immediate danger from modern construction.

    4. I've studied all the sources, religious and scientific for about 4 years now, have no counter-evidence and enough faith in the core of this thesis to condense it as much as possible to raise awareness and Eden from further destruction. The world got fooled into believing Eden was a magical place, lost under the Persian gulf, or the area around where no agriculture existed until after Kharsag was destroyed and Catal Hoyuk was a cultivated farmyard. I figure helping people understand this and conserve the site for our heritage can only help our world and science move forward.

    Hope it's easier to digest that way. Let me know your thoughts.

    Along with expansion of -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Aswad

    from Danielle Stordeur's original French field report summary, I have also been creating -

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Ramad

    which is right at the foot of Mount Hermon, the suggested "World Mountain". These have all been peer reviewed, are not fringe, or non-notable and I am writing unbiased, so no fears about Wiki being able to label these with any warnings.

    Thanks for all of your help getting it discussed and progressed!
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