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Thread: The start of religion

  1. #1 The start of religion 
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    *DISCLAIMER* IN NOW WAY IS THIS MEANT TO OFFEND BUT ONLY AS A PURE DISCUSSION EXERCISE

    I have noticed that research from the old sumerian text found in modern day Iraq suggests that there is a type of mythology based stories which in fact may well be true (according to Zecharia Sitchin)

    However I have a housemate who's uncle is a born again christian, he believes that only born again christians will go to heaven (convenient for him!) and that he believes in the Bible & the Word of God. He laughs at my evolution thoughts and says that man was not created more than 30,000 years ago, he was created by God in his image in the garden of Eden and that he only came to Earth after eating from the tree of knowledge &gettin kicked out.

    Now from sumerian drawings & texts, they also have a similiar story, which however was recorded around 4,000 BC, not 200 AD like the Bible.

    The sumerians state in short that Gods came out of the heavens and created man from dust in a place called Edin (sound familiar) and the drawings show the birth of Man with a tree, these gods were in fact from another planet & gave humans knowledge etc. Also they had lesser gods which where instructed to watch over us.....which is kinda like Angels.

    Now when i try to get this guy to step away from his view & try to view it from another perspective to try and see that there is some actual similiar stories and that in fact the Bible may have many sumerian themes in. Obviously he declines
    this. Has religion removed freedom thinking in its followers? I am not aware of whether many other religious people ever question there faith? Being open and understanding its origins.

    I wondered if anyone who may or may not be religious has a view on this? For me I personally believe that the texts from the sumerians are actually a founding base for all religions, in that they have set a standard theory for many religions. However these texts are not the words of God....but that they are the words of men.


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  3. #2 Re: The start of religion 
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMinded23
    I have noticed that research from the old sumerian text found in modern day Iraq suggests that there is a type of mythology based stories which in fact may well be true (according to Zecharia Sitchin)
    If you ever want to be taken seriously, you might consider not concluding a paragraph with "according to Zecharia Sitchin" unless you're writing to debunk that idiot. Sitchin's grasp on reality is flimsy, particularly with regard to his points of view on Sumarian history and prehistory.

    Now from sumerian drawings & texts, they also have a similiar story, which however was recorded around 4,000 BC, not 200 AD like the Bible.
    "Similar" is a matter of interpretation. There are certainly correlates between the Old Testament and some Sumerian texts. Most notably would be the near word-for-word similarities of the noachian flood myth with that of the older version that involves Utnapishtim from the Gilgamesh epic (which I've compared in another thread in this forum).

    But there are many Near Eastern texts that relate to the Bible to a degree that they can be considered source material, ranging as far as from Egpyt to Persia to Sumeria (in both time and space).

    The sumerians state in short that Gods came out of the heavens and created man from dust in a place called Edin (sound familiar) and the drawings show the birth of Man with a tree, these gods were in fact from another planet & gave humans knowledge etc. Also they had lesser gods which where instructed to watch over us.....which is kinda like Angels.
    If you're getting this from Sitchin, it's probably bunk. You'd do better to pick up a copy of Pritchard's Ancient Near Eastern Texts Related to the Bible (ANET), of which there are two forms. One is a rather large, more complete book -the other is a smaller, but still very complete text that includes the relative texts, including the Eridu Genesis from the tablet fragment found in Nippur that you reference above.

    Sitchin's "translations" are complete bullshit. Actual translations contradict him significantly. And the Eridu Genesis doesn't mention "Edin." In fact, the Garden of Eden analog in this ancient text is Dilmun, which is an island in the Persian Gulf (probably Bahrain). The word "edin" is used in Sumerian texts, but not as a place-name. It refers to the wilderness steppe or plains surrounding Sumer. So its possible that the origin of the Hebrew "eden" is the Sumerian "edin," but it also might not be.

    I personally believe that the texts from the sumerians are actually a founding base for all religions, in that they have set a standard theory for many religions. However these texts are not the words of God....but that they are the words of men.
    They're clearly the words of men, but Sumeria isn't the sole source of modern religious mythology. Just one of them.


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  4. #3  
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    No I havent read much up from Sitchin and would rather not but jst interested in early texts such as the sumerian texts and how they may of been the foundation for alot of modern religions.
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  5. #4  
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    Openmind said:

    Now from sumerian drawings & texts, they also have a similiar story, which however was recorded around 4,000 BC, not 200 AD like the Bible.
    Well, there is a problem here in this statement in that the Bible was not recorded around 200 AD -- depending on what you mean by "recorded."

    If you are talking about when it was written, this is vastly inaccurate. Scholars suggest that Moses wrote the first five books of the Old Testament just less than 2,000 B.C. This seems to be pretty well accepted by the academic community. I am not sure where the 4,000 BC dating for the Sumerian drawings and texts come from.

    If you are talking about the earliest extant copies, then I would seriously doubt that there are really any Sumerian texts dated to 4,000 BC, unless they are written in stone. However, 200 A.D. would be a fairly close estimate as to the earliest extant copies of New Testament texts although one rather small fragment has been dated to AD 127-138.

    I am not sure what Openminded is requesting when he asks for "views" on this after apparently rejecting his housemate's uncle's view. It would appear that if one disagrees with Openminded, then he is close minded and unthinking because his belief does not coincide with Openminded's view.

    There is, of course a difference between a belief and a view. A view merely represents what one considers a possible interpretation of the variants of information being "viewed." A belief accepts the reliability of one (or more) of the variants over the others.

    As skinwalker points out, there are many ancient variations on the creation themes represented in the Hebrew Bible and other societal documents relating to what happened prior to the development of a written language -- all of this pre-writing information having been passed down by oral communication.

    About all this means, in the long run, is that events occurred in the far distant past for which we do not have on-cite, contemporaneous video tapes for documentation, but merely oral accounts followed by later written accounts based on the oral traditions.

    The significance is that something most likely did occur which ancient people thought was important enough that they passed it down orally for 100s of generations in scores of social groups who adapted and molded the information to fit their own purposes and understandings.

    The question thus becomes: what is more important -- the difference or the similarities? Do the discrepancies suggest that all these social groups made up similar stories? Or do the similarities suggest that were some source events to which the later written versions refer?

    Which actual version of the events is the most accurate is not nearly so imporant as the actual cause of the events.

    I seriously doubt that Sermarians would be attributing the creation and causal agent of those acient events to the Jewish God any more than the Hebrews attributed them to Zoroastrian gods.

    I do happen to be a believer in the need for reconcilliation with God through salvation in Jesus Christ and thus attribute these events to have been the result of actions by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    But back to the "view" thing. It sounds like I am being asked my view of how Openminded's "view" compares to his cohabitant's, uncle's belief. I would say there is really little basis for comparison. Comparing a view with a belief is sort of like comparing apples and oranges -- there are both similarities and differences. Neither validates nor negates the other.

    We (humans) are here as the result of something. Some of us believe that "something" created us with meaning and purpose while others of us believe we just happened for no reason.

    Personally, I find more satisfaction in believing that I have meaning and purpose than in believing that I am a meaningless, purposeless mass of accidentally formed protoplasm.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  6. #5 Re: The start of religion 
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMinded23

    The sumerians state in short that Gods came out of the heavens and created man from dust in a place called Edin (sound familiar) and the drawings show the birth of Man with a tree, these gods were in fact from another planet & gave humans knowledge etc. Also they had lesser gods which where instructed to watch over us.....which is kinda like Angels.
    I doubt the Sumerians had any clear concept of what a "planet" is, or even what "outer space" in general would mean. That sounds like ex post facto interpretation.

    Their gods probably came from the sky, and lived in another world, much like the gods of a lot of religions do, but that doesn't make them little green men in a flying saucer. You could just as easily say that Thor and Odin came from planet Valhalla to interact with the Norse people, and try and make an "ancient aliens" argument from there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Personally, I find more satisfaction in believing that I have meaning and purpose than in believing that I am a meaningless, purposeless mass of accidentally formed protoplasm.
    And you can believe all of those things without ever invoking a deity or religious scripture.
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  8. #7  
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    inow wrote:

    daytonturner wrote:
    Personally, I find more satisfaction in believing that I have meaning and purpose than in believing that I am a meaningless, purposeless mass of accidentally formed protoplasm.
    And you can believe all of those things without ever invoking a deity or religious scripture.
    Hmmmm. I see no reference to any deity or religious scripture in the statement you quoted. Perhaps what you read into my statement reveals an underlying understanding that religion provides a more solid basis for that belief than atheism's lack of belief in anything but a series of natural accidents.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  9. #8  
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    Uhmm... No. That would be an inaccurate comprehension of my intended point.
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  10. #9 the Disparagement of Ration 
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    Most religions (or at least sections of) urge their followers not to think. First of all, I don't blame them. If people were to think rationally about the mythical concepts they were ingesting every day (actually ponder what was written in the books), they would repudiate the tripe in a heartbeat. I have argued with many, many theists who are wholly unaware that (I'll utilize Chrisitanity as an example, seeing as it's most popular where I'm from) the bible promotes slavery, that, in the exact same section where homosexuality is branded as sinful and the entire text is supposed to be followed to the letter, you're not supposed to touch a bug with six conjoined legs or to pick up a grape that has fallen in your vineyard or to mix fabrics. The majourity of religions (if not all) are fuled by the ideal that you must put all thoughts aside and just accept the god/s without question. And the problem is that, with the way the human brain and body work, it does feel more blissful to not think things through. Therefor (since religious followers often don't develope deductive skills), they assume since it feels better, it's righteous. But that's just one branch of the situation at hand. In a nutshell, no, theists don't question their faith. If they do, they often become atheists or alter religions or (most commonly) say, "I don't like this part, so I'll ignore that and promote the rest."

    But the really big part is that theists operate around the idea that their god/s are almighty and you "can't" truly understand him/them. That's why, in so many religious arguments, theists won't have an explaination for our rational thoughts, because, from their perspective, it isn't explicable. The righteous is in the inexplicable. I disagree with that BS on a wicked level, as it completely lacks what they intend to lack. Rational thinking and deduction. The way I see it, it's like telling someone that 5+5=154. When a second party actually does the math and challenges the first person, the first person says, "No, it's right. My grandma told me so, as did my dad. Two whole generations; you think they would have gone that long and not have it be right?"
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    Remember, as a scientists you must look at all theories unbiased. So, think about this. If the Bible is 100% true, than any/every nation would have similar stories. The people who lived through it would tell their grandchildren, who would tell their grandchildren ... As the nations spread out the stories would become changed little by little until the the records you are talking about were made. As far as I can tell, that is a rational explanation for why many cultures tell similar stories about man formed out of Earth, a flood with few survivors, etc.

    As far as the claim that religion removes one's free will, I can only address that from a Jewish perspective. My answer is read on page of Talmud (commentary on Torah). There are many opinions on almost every issue. Any idea reached through one of several methods is a perfectly valid view.

    Also, I think you may have your dates wrong. The Second Holy Temple was destroyed 70 C.D. The Bible was given to the Israel on after leaving Egypt, much earlier (around 1300 B.C.E. I think). Maybe Christians have different dates.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    Remember, as a scientists you must look at all theories unbiased. So, think about this. If the Bible is 100% true, than any/every nation would have similar stories. The people who lived through it would tell their grandchildren, who would tell their grandchildren ... As the nations spread out the stories would become changed little by little until the the records you are talking about were made. As far as I can tell, that is a rational explanation for why many cultures tell similar stories about man formed out of Earth, a flood with few survivors, etc.
    So much for unbiased... Unless you excused yourself from that condition.
    I think you've missed (at least) a sentence or two out of your post.
    There's nothing in there that even comes close to a "rational explanation".
    Maybe you could post that part later.

    As far as the claim that religion removes one's free will, I can only address that from a Jewish perspective. My answer is read on page of Talmud (commentary on Torah).
    In other words you're not going address it, just wave in a vague direction and claim the answer's there somewhere.

    Any idea reached through one of several methods is a perfectly valid view.
    Oops, no.
    (Or at least: not necessarily).
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    Remember, as a scientists you must look at all theories unbiased. So, think about this. If the Bible is 100% true ...
    As scientists, we would ask for the evidence for that before going any further.

    If invisible pink unicorns exist then they could push the planets. As far as I can tell, that is a rational explanation for Newton's universal law of gravity.

    As far as I can tell, that is a rational explanation for why many cultures tell similar stories about man formed out of Earth, a flood with few survivors, etc.
    What about cultures who have different stories? Or do we just ignore them because they have got it wrong?

    And what about the total lack of evidence (and physical impossibility) of a global flood?

    Maybe you should remove the "-Scientist" bit from your username if all you are going to do is preach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    Remember, as a scientists you must look at all theories unbiased. So, think about this. If the Bible is 100% true...
    First of all, that isn't being unbiased. Accepting something for which there is little or no support and then trying to verify it is the opposite of unbiased.

    Secondly, I don't take a possible conclusion and then try to fill in the gaps with data. That would be maddening. The data suggests that the Bible isn't true. The Earth is not 6000 years old, there is no evidence of God, biology tells us humanity cannot have evolved from two individuals creating a new race through inbreeding.

    Your cart isn't pulling your donkey very well.

    EDIT: Son of a... I hate you guys for being faster typers than me...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    EDIT: Son of a... I hate you guys for being faster typers than me...
    Don't hate me!
    I'm psychic - I wrote my reply yesterday and just copy-pasted it.
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    I've been working on this idea that Earth was created by giant space-faring rabbits which pooped out little balls we call planets. Since I'm looking at all possibilities in an unbiased way, I have accepted this as truth and now I need some people to help me fill in the gaps. Who's game?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've been working on this idea that Earth was created by giant space-faring rabbits which pooped out little balls we call planets. Since I'm looking at all possibilities in an unbiased way, I have accepted this as truth and now I need some people to help me fill in the gaps. Who's game?
    Well, one of your challenges is the different sizes of the planets. And the gas giants. Do rabbits get wind?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    And the gas giants. Do rabbits get wind?
    Obviously - the gas giants are all the evidence you need.
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    I blame gas giants on a weekend spent eating hot wings and drinking American beer. Black holes are clearly too much fiber. You don't want to know about stars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    I've been working on this idea that Earth was created by giant space-faring rabbits which pooped out little balls we call planets. Since I'm looking at all possibilities in an unbiased way, I have accepted this as truth and now I need some people to help me fill in the gaps. Who's game?
    Well, one of your challenges is the different sizes of the planets. And the gas giants. Do rabbits get wind?
    How silly - we all know rabbits poo is made of raisins.......
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    What is problematic to me is that if there was a "God" why doesn't it just come forth and show itself to everyone instead of hiding away from everyone and never saying anything? We all try to show what this entity said instead of just asking it to speak now. Since it is supposed to be so powerful and cannot be hurt why doesn't it show itself and say what it wants today instead of just having to learn what it was saying thousands of years ago. Times change and I'd think if there were a "God" then it should set us straight as to what we need to know today, not what it said way back when.

    So why is it that we can't hear from this "God" today? It would seem that would be the best way to provide us with proof positive.
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    Well, you don't learn anything from the test if the teacher gives you all the answers.
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  23. #22  
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    WOW. That is a lot of posts for such a short time. Lets start with what we know. Similar stories have been repeated in several different cultures.

    At the risk of speaking for someone else; OpenMinded23 gave one theory that explains why this happened. The stories were popular and known by everyone in the regian. He said that the modern Bible is based on these stories. However, when the other cultures stopped reciting these stories, the Bible continued to do so. This theory seems very logical to me.

    I wanted to let him hear another theory. That theory being that the events in the stories actually happened. As will all major events, they were passed down through oral tradition. As is the natural of oral tradition, the stories changed as time went on. Eventually the stories developed different details that were specific to that culture. One advantage this theory has over the other is that it explains why the Bible didn't fade away like the others. If these events did happen, G-d would have made sure at least one uncorrupted record would be left for progeny, the Bible.

    Cosmictraveler - I find myself walking a little close to that line between science that acknowledges G-d and religion that uses science for support. I personal leader for me said that if we look we could see Him in our lives. For example, a Radkowsky Thorium Fuel is being used to make older U.S. and Russian nuclear reactors safer and more efficient. Just a few decades ago nuclear energy research was focused almost exclusively on weapons. Now, the two sworn enemies are working together for a peaceful future. I am not that good in history, but I do not know of something like this happening before. If you don't see the same thing I do here, that's o.k.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    WOW. That is a lot of posts for such a short time. Lets start with what we know. Similar stories have been repeated in several different cultures..
    And different stories have been repeated in several different cultures.

    Conclusion: people like telling stories.

    Some of those stories may have a basis in fact. Some may be completely made up.

    How do we decide which is which? How about evidence. (The stories themselves are not evidence of their own veracity or provenance.)

    I wanted to let him hear another theory.
    OpenMinded23 hasn't posted for nearly three years so you are probably wasting your time. (And this is a science forum, so you might want to consider bringing some evidence to the party.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    At the risk of speaking for someone else; OpenMinded23 gave one theory that explains why this happened. The stories were popular and known by everyone in the regian. He said that the modern Bible is based on these stories. However, when the other cultures stopped reciting these stories, the Bible continued to do so. This theory seems very logical to me.
    Firstly, stop using the word theory incorrectly.

    Secondly, you could also consider the notion that, as humans, we have very similar experiences in life. It makes sense to me that even people of different cultures would have similar experiences and interpret them in different way through story-telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    science that acknowledges G-d
    No such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    and religion that uses science for support.
    Intelligent Design. It's more offensive to me than Creationism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    I personal leader for me said that if we look we could see Him in our lives. For example, a Radkowsky Thorium Fuel is being used to make older U.S. and Russian nuclear reactors safer and more efficient. Just a few decades ago nuclear energy research was focused almost exclusively on weapons. Now, the two sworn enemies are working together for a peaceful future. I am not that good in history, but I do not know of something like this happening before. If you don't see the same thing I do here, that's o.k.
    This is just bias of perception. What I see is people working in a social structure because they each benefit. "Seeing" God in that circumstance is not even an observation since you're applying your personal beliefs to the viewpoint. What you see is people working together for a common cause. What you BELIEVE is that God is behind it. There is no evidence. There is no theory.

    Trying to twist scientific methodology to support something which, by scientific definition, cannot be supported, is a corruption of the methodology. Nothing more.
    Last edited by Flick Montana; August 16th, 2013 at 07:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    That theory being that the events in the stories actually happened.
    The slight problem here is that we know for a fact that they didn't.

    One advantage this theory has over the other is that it explains why the Bible didn't fade away like the others. If these events did happen, G-d would have made sure at least one uncorrupted record would be left for progeny, the Bible.
    It's not an "advantage". It leaves you with the problem of showing that god actually exists and had the desire and capability to preserve the story.

    I find myself walking a little close to that line between science that acknowledges G-d and religion that uses science for support.
    Please point out ANY occurrence of science acknowledging god.
    And religion tends to use science for "support" only when acknowledging that science is unavoidable - and even then it has a tendency to misrepresent the science.

    Just a few decades ago nuclear energy research was focused almost exclusively on weapons.
    Not really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jewish-Scientist View Post
    I wanted to let him hear another theory. That theory being that the events in the stories actually happened. As will all major events, they were passed down through oral tradition.
    We must therefore conclude that the islands of Japan really were created by Izanagi having sex with his sister, Izanami, who then gave birth to the islands. It must be true because it was handed down by oral tradition.
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    Ugh, just imagine trying to provide evidence for Norse creation...

    We're going to be here a while.
    Last edited by Flick Montana; August 16th, 2013 at 07:02 AM.
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    Many of them can be call a fairy tales, even in Buddhism you could no indentify and prove them event there Buddha told a stories but this story only our earth story, there many many universe and realms

    In Buddhism we must beware about sentient being who call them self a God if this sentient being could die (event he die in very very long time than other beings) it not a god it's deity, some being life very long time than other beings even look have eternal life but one day they could die too, a being who are still bind in 31 realm of existence could not be call God it's false.
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    To the OP, the start of religion, in my opinion was our unique capacity to maintain a position though new evidence or sentiment suggests we change it. To the savage individual who wants to advance himself that's useless; but to the societies we were developing it was really adaptive for members to keep a promise/contract/position no matter what. The society enjoys reliable trade, solid families, disciplined soldiers. Now to doggedly maintain a position is uncool lately, because modern society is structured to allow free thinking and constant re-evaluation of one's position. And look at the divorce rate.

    My main point is that religion is a side effect (or "proof" if you will) of an inclination to make and keep vows. A reader who cannot see any virtue in irrationality will not get their head around this.
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    To try to reach a proper answer to your question.

    I believe that prior to religion (a state or group recognised collective practice) there were a hotchpotch of magical superstitious ideas. Picture a group and in this group no one has any real idea about the universe or their role in it. Stronger members of the group gain some sort of authority perhaps by bloodshed and oppression. They need a method to systematise the behaviour of their group so they create unfounded ideas about say how to hunt bison. Although these idea might have fragments of practical worth, they are also interlaced by all sorts of confabulation (e.g. the Bison God in the stars). Chinese whispers begin but soon some form of 'regularities' are passed on from generation to generation. After a while a 'philosophy' is created which distinguishes you from other groups - a perfect reason to attack them for their 'misunderstanding'.

    Obviously, for a process like this to begin clearly language of some nature must exist. This requires a capable larynx and speech organs such as the mouth and tongue, and some form of capable neurology. Some scientists have linked speech with the descent of the larynx, but this hypothesis is necessarily highly tenuous. The picture is likely to be multifactorial.

    We have some evidence of 'religious' beliefs from the artefacts left by our ancestors (no I don't mean Moses) .The Lascaux caves go back 17500 years or so other cave go back as far as circa 30,000 years other artifacts go back to around 100, 000 years. Obviously the ability to scratch an image onto a stone may have preceded speech, but it is the last hundred thousand years that a lot has happened to the human family.
    If you want to think of state organising philosophies - such as the Egyptians, well the Egyptian dynasties go back just over 3000 BC. Depending on what you consider to be a city - as opposed t a village or cooperative farmstead, you wont find much before 10,000 BC. Agriculture slightly before this. Before this was hunter gathering, which perhaps involved ritual to agree some form of group trapping activity.
    Group opinion and the inclusion or exclusion of a person is a very powerful force and may mean a question of life and death. In early groups it would have been easy to get rid of a troublesome member by some form of ostrasization based on group held ideas of a tenuous non factual nature. Claiming you are the big god or their rep must have given a elder more power (having a handy old man to support your views and wave fire about in your name an impressive way could have helped to.
    We see incense in this role today.
    I am reminded of a story from the east, where a Sheppard having some unruly sheep hypnotises them all to follow one sheep, he then simply puts a lead around that one.
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    I believe that religion faith existed since first humans...
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    I believe that religion faith existed since first humans...
    Evidenced by cave paintings depicting God?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackscorp View Post
    I believe that religion faith existed since first humans...
    I think it likely came before there were any humans.
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  35. #34  
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    Problem is that people tend to underestimate the power of the human mind.

    When I was young I read 'Ronia the Robber's Daughter' by Astrid Lindgren. It was my favorit book and I read it several times.

    I do not know about other people,... but when I read a book, I create images in my mind,... as if making my own personal movie. Such is the power of the human mind that stories can become a reality. Many decades later I can still vividly recall the images I created in my head back then,... simply based on a story.

    The human mind seems to have difficulty seperating reality from fiction sometimes,... we all know this and will tell the person involved 'it is just a story'. The fact that religious people make an acception for their particular faith,... is an insult to logic, but if you are told many times over 'this is god, this is what he did, and these are his stories,' then it becomes hard to seperate reality from fiction.

    The best SciFi stories ever written are not Star Wars, or 2001 Space Oddysee, Star Trek, Buck Rogers, Battle Star Gallactica or Dune. it are religious stories.

    To let your mind roam, and think of what and how a world, our world, came to be, or will be in the future.

    I think the great SciFi stories of 'Dune' are a great example of religious bullcrap gone wild, for no particular reason other then a nutcake (Paul Attreides) is in power, starts of as a fair leader, ends up sending out his religious followers on a rampage across the universe.
    His religious followers die for him, without even blinking,... for them he is god incarnate, basically.

    And it is all based on superstitious bullcrap. At no point in all the book is there ever REAL evidence Paul Atreides actually IS the one they have been waiting for. Sure events are similar to what their prophet is suppose to do,... but Paul Atreides is also shown to manipulate events to accomodate the faith of those he needs support from... ending up being basically... being their god.

    All religions in this world are like the legacy portrait in Dune.

    No religion has ever provided evidence to justify their own existance. And those claims for evidence that have been done in the past,... have been shown to be fraud, or not able to ever be proven again after the initial fact, as such the event will just simply need to be taken on faith to be believed.

    The hijack of science by religions, is an insult to mankinds intelligence, and only exists to keep the religions -and particular their leaders- in power. Religion is a power game, it is pure politics,... the religious followers just suckerpunched into numbness to ever have a mind of their own.

    So if you want to know how religion works,.... read the book series of Dune, imho.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpenMinded23 View Post
    *DISCLAIMER* IN NOW WAY IS THIS MEANT TO OFFEND BUT ONLY AS A PURE DISCUSSION EXERCISE

    I have noticed that research from the old sumerian text found in modern day Iraq suggests that there is a type of mythology based stories which in fact may well be true (according to Zecharia Sitchin)

    However I have a housemate who's uncle is a born again christian, he believes that only born again christians will go to heaven (convenient for him!) and that he believes in the Bible & the Word of God. He laughs at my evolution thoughts and says that man was not created more than 30,000 years ago, he was created by God in his image in the garden of Eden and that he only came to Earth after eating from the tree of knowledge &gettin kicked out.

    Now from sumerian drawings & texts, they also have a similiar story, which however was recorded around 4,000 BC, not 200 AD like the Bible.

    The sumerians state in short that Gods came out of the heavens and created man from dust in a place called Edin (sound familiar) and the drawings show the birth of Man with a tree, these gods were in fact from another planet & gave humans knowledge etc. Also they had lesser gods which where instructed to watch over us.....which is kinda like Angels.

    Now when i try to get this guy to step away from his view & try to view it from another perspective to try and see that there is some actual similiar stories and that in fact the Bible may have many sumerian themes in. Obviously he declines
    this. Has religion removed freedom thinking in its followers? I am not aware of whether many other religious people ever question there faith? Being open and understanding its origins.

    I wondered if anyone who may or may not be religious has a view on this? For me I personally believe that the texts from the sumerians are actually a founding base for all religions, in that they have set a standard theory for many religions. However these texts are not the words of God....but that they are the words of men.
    There is a confusion between "questioning ones religion" to meaning, questioning its right or reason or reality. This, people find offensive and commonly viewed as a tactic to confuse. However, one must learn their religion. Still, one may not know all the answers.

    The Word of God notes that all things were made and from that we diversified and developed. Adam and Eve, yes? would this not include intelligence/history along with genetics? As depicted, there is a movement away from common knowledge as the population grows. humanity takes on new desires and new faults (Cain and Abel). As in the O.T. (actually written centuries before 200AD) With every step away from God, is a step towards another faith, another desire (Tower of Babel). Spirituality and the concept of "supernatural" changes along with evolution of man. However, does Truth evolve? No. It may change, I believe that. However, it will change on its own and not based on the knowledge of man. So, as opinions and thoughts change about truth, falsehoods generate.

    That is how I see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Estheria Quintessimo View Post
    No religion has ever provided evidence to justify their own existance. And those claims for evidence that have been done in the past,... have been shown to be fraud, or not able to ever be proven again after the initial fact, as such the event will just simply need to be taken on faith to be believed.

    The hijack of science by religions, is an insult to mankind['s intelligence, and only exists to keep the religions -and particular their leaders- in power. Religion is a power game, it is pure politics,... the religious followers just suckerpunched into numbness to ever have a mind of their own.

    So if you want to know how religion works,.... read the book series of Dune, imho.
    Read a book written in the 1980's?

    No human has provided evidence to justify that religion should not exist. Humanity's own character of being social is evidence towards why religion or any group exist.
    religion is fiction? amazing...which part? there are several theories/statements/claims made by any one religion. are you stating they are all faulty?
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