Notices
Results 1 to 30 of 30

Thread: Rising ocean levels create...world wide flood

  1. #1 Rising ocean levels create...world wide flood 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    Here's a few ideas about a possible explanation for an ancient flood. I think the Bible is a written record of oral traditions passed down for what might have been thousands of years. We're dealing with ancient peoples who had zero knowledge of any science. To them, the forces of nature were magical, supernatural events. Its not their fault they didn't know what we know today. They simply didn't know, so they described events as best they could within their own cultures.

    The Sumarian's had a similar account of a great flood in their records, very similar to later Biblical accounts. So I assume they might refer to the same event. Sumeria was the first major civilization and developed the first written language, lirerally thousands of years before the bible was written.

    The last Ice Age ended about 12,000 years ago. As the glaciers melted, oceans levels would have risen. Low lying lands would have been flooded, quickly or slowly, depending on how fast the ice melted and flowed to the oceans. The Sumerians or their predesessors were alive and well during this period of glacial melting and ocean levels rising. They were probably to far south to be aware of glaciers, but they would have been aware of rising ocean levels as lands increasingly were flooded.

    The rest of the story about Noah, etc.,blah blah gave the story the much needed human element. What good is story telling without a good story? The basic fact of the end of the last Ice Age needed jazzing up, and with a few thousand years and a host of story tellers, no wonder the Bible story is what it is.

    Bottom line: the Bible story of the flood may have been an ancient account of the end of the last Ice Age.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    The much earlier flood myths of Mesopotamia are far more interesting and entertaining than the Noachian myth, to be sure. The passages of Gilgamesh that discuss the flood of Utnapishtim are clearly the source of the noachian myth. In some places the borrowing is word for word with obvious embellishment throughout.

    But the motif of floods being directed by gods shouldn't be surprise in any human culture around the world. After all, we're a species that needs water and we live in flood prone regions everywhere in the world. Floods happen.

    But the notion that a inundation in a post-Pleistocene thaw isn't all that far-fetched. The Sumerian people migrated to the region of Mesopotamia they ultimately created their civilization. Writing eventually developed there, but the tales of a flood may have been passed down as an oral tradition before finding itself in written form as the Atrahasis or within Gilgamesh.

    Pure speculation, but the Sumerian people may have been displaced from the lush valley that once occupied the land which now sits at the bottom of the Persian Gulf. This valley was exposed during the last glacial period, inundated at around 12,000 - 10,000 years ago. It would, however, have been a relatively slow inundation when compared with a sudden flood. But a few centimeters or meters per day would have been sufficient to force inhabitants to higher ground. The Sumerian myths include Dilmun, a utopia-like mythical place of origin, which was very likely on or near modern-day Bahrain.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    USA, TN
    Posts
    24
    There is some evidence of a natural damn that used to be in that area. Some scientists believe that this damn may have busted and flooded a large area around mesopotamia, which, if these people didn't have much communication with many other parts of the world then these ancient peoples may have thought that this was worldwide.
    "I don't know what weapons will be used in World War Three, but World war four will be fought with sticks and stones."
    -Albert Einstein

    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    http://www.religiouscartoons.net/dis...album=4&pos=10
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    What's the evidence for this?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    I've been doing some searches about this idea, her's some links

    http://www.pbs.org/saf/1207/features/noah.htm

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Noah-...rs-71449.shtml
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    I wrote a review of Ryan and Pittman's book if anyone is interested: http://ahotcupofjoe.net/2006/09/book...f-noahs-flood/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    When I click the link I get a yellow sign with a red exclamation point.
    Here's a link from Columbia U

    http://www.columbia.edu/cu/record/ar...od_Theory.html about it
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    The above link should be fixed now.

    Also, I cleaned this thread up a little, removing the meta-discussion about the broken link above. I upgraded my blog's theme at the same time I posted here, and the upgrade had a slight problem.

    Oh, and I cleaned up stlekee's link. the html was caught between the "a" and the "bout" creating a url that started "ahttp..".

    Let's get back to the topic now :-)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    Nice review SkinWalker, you seem well infrormed. while searching for info linking Noah's flood tho the ice age, I found many creationist sites that claim the ice age was caused by the flood - which is backwards from the topic of this post. To me, this idea doesn't seem credible, any creationists out there that want to get in on this?
    Here's a lnk to a creationist site supporting the idea the the flood caused the ice age

    http://dancingfromgenesis.wordpress....enesis-histor/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Lets not bait those trolls.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Couldn't it be as simple as a single guy getting washed out to sea, losing sight of the land, and assuming it all must have been covered in water?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Couldn't it be as simple as a single guy getting washed out to sea, losing sight of the land, and assuming it all must have been covered in water?
    And "It all" from a Bronze aged early city dweller's level of knowledge would have been a very small area.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Couldn't it be as simple as a single guy getting washed out to sea, losing sight of the land, and assuming it all must have been covered in water?
    And "It all" from a Bronze aged early city dweller's level of knowledge would have been a very small area.
    And just think how much the problem compounds if he's adrift at sea for a long time with his family, and ultimately comes to rest in an area that's uninhabited. (Leading him to believe that all the rest of humankind has perished.)

    His descendants go like 3 or 4 generations, spread out a bit (with no shortage of inbreeding, unfortunately) , and when they finally come into contact with humans from another family group, they just assume its children of some of their distant relatives who they aren't on close terms with.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    267
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

    this puts the flood about 25,000 bc
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    Kojax, your idea is interesting, but why would this story be so significant that it would be handed down throughout the centuries? I mean it wouldn't even make it as a documentary on the history channel.

    I think what makes the story memorable isn't the Noah part, its the flood part. The flood is what's being remembered, Noah is just just along for the ride to give it that human element, just like any good disaster movie.

    Granpa, i checked out that link on Sumeria. Cool, but the way I read it it dates some flood at about 2500-2900 BCE, not 25,000

    I think that behind every myth, legend, fable is some fact, however small, of a real event or situation. Then our job is to try to unravel the story and see what might really have happened.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,416
    Quote Originally Posted by stlekee
    I think that behind every myth, legend, fable is some fact, however small, of a real event or situation. Then our job is to try to unravel the story and see what might really have happened.
    Or complete fabrications to impress people or make a legitimate claim to land or something else.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,840
    Inundation of land from thawing of ice at the end of the last glaciation period is a reality. Some archaeologists are now finding stone age artifacts from dredging the North Sea.

    However, it strikes me as being a very unlikely source of flood legends. The inundation took many centuries. A very slow motion flood!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    The flooding of the Black Sea did not take centuries. The timescale of the flooding of the Gulf is not well defined, but did not necessarily take centuries.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,231
    How fast did the Bering Strait flood?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,035
    Quote Originally Posted by stlekee
    Kojax, your idea is interesting, but why would this story be so significant that it would be handed down throughout the centuries? I mean it wouldn't even make it as a documentary on the history channel.
    Well, you have to remember that people were really ignorant in ancient history. Nobody is able to compare their notes and realize that this guy was wrong in thinking that all of humanity except his family had died in a flood.

    With all the poorly kept genealogies and such, when his descendants finally meet those other family groups, and mistake them for relatives........ those other family groups also mistake themselves for relatives.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    Quote Originally Posted by stlekee
    I think that behind every myth, legend, fable is some fact, however small, of a real event or situation. Then our job is to try to unravel the story and see what might really have happened.
    Or complete fabrications to impress people or make a legitimate claim to land or something else.
    Or a mix. Sometimes a good story just gets co-opted or hijacked... or embellished.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    30
    For sure nobody knows, but its interesting to speculate. I like to try to understand the world view of ancient people, they were NOT the same as modern folks in their understanding and knowledge.

    One thing we do have in common is that we believe we know something, it helps make sense of the world. I'm of the belief that people hold on to old ideas of religion, no matter how far removed from reality, because it connects them to something permanent in a changing world. Lets face it, most people don't like change.

    So we have ancient religions and beliefs that tried to explain reality to help people deal with their world. And we hold onto these religions and beliefs even though they now are far removed from reality as we know it today - I used to ask myself, how can anybody believe this stuff, it doesn't make sense. But I guess people really don't make sense after all, and we really don't want the world or god to make any sense.

    But the flip side is people hold onto these religions because they don't want to risk going to hell, another concept that doesn't make sense. Why would a loving, forgiving god send us to hell? Is anybody else frustrated with this stuff, this religion stuff?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,893
    Quote Originally Posted by stlekee
    I think that behind every myth, legend, fable is some fact, however small, of a real event or situation. Then our job is to try to unravel the story and see what might really have happened.
    Would you care to explain what real even or situation inspired Star Wars of Spiderman? People love to just make up entertaining bullshit. I'm sure that a large portion of myths have some original factual basis, but I certainly don't see any reason to think that all of them do.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by granpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

    this puts the flood about 25,000 bc

    Do you want to edit that number?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by granpa
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_King_List

    this puts the flood about 25,000 bc

    Do you want to edit that number?
    If memory serves correct, that number is accurate. But you have to understand that the Sumerian Kings List is one that is reliable only to a certain date. Beyond that (I think somewhere around 5,000 BCE) the list becomes mythology.

    It's been a while since I read up on Sumeria, but this is as I recall it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    woah woah woah.... Doesn't the YEC calendar put creation at around 4,004 BCE though?
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    The Sumerians weren't YEC.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    Right, I understand that, but wouldn't a reliable list of Sumerian kings that dates back to at least 5000 BCE invalidate the YEC claims rather immediately? I'm more stuck on how the YEC never included that little bit in their calculations.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    I suspect the OP is right, that flood accounts have some basis in climate change.

    At the SW corner of the Caspian there are petroglyphs depicting organized migrations: fleets of boats large enough to carry 20+ paddlers, some apparently with livestock. The region from Aral, Caspian, and Black Sea saw vast (and possibly catastrophic) flooding due to changes in ice sheet drainage.

    Maybe coincidence that Noah is supposed to have landed at "the land of Ararat", whose lofty peak is visible from the petroglyph site, i.e. you could navigate by it. Or maybe there were many Noahs.

    Pictures here: http://www.donsmaps.com/gobustan.html



    In the Georgia Strait / Puget Sound area (now renamed the "Salish Sea") flood myth claims that waters rose so high, only an arbutus tree stood above water. This would correctly describe the early millenia of deglaciation as islands and coastline rebounded from below sea level, and the habitable coasts would be lined with the one tree species tolerant of salt.

    But is it historic account, or just clever guess "if there was a flood"?



    One question that nags: How could prehistoric people not practice (quaint) archeology? Surely they were finding ruins, dinosaur fossils, strange humanoid skulls. They'd wonder about these things. The rise of sea levels must have resulted in cumulative ruins visible and just offshore, as a constant reminder for thousands of years.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Freshman SpaceCDT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    NSW, Australia
    Posts
    7
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Right, I understand that, but wouldn't a reliable list of Sumerian kings that dates back to at least 5000 BCE invalidate the YEC claims rather immediately? I'm more stuck on how the YEC never included that little bit in their calculations.
    Absolutely right, however the Sumerian King List is mostly mythology. As I understand it some of the Kings live for hundreds of years, etc etc
    Regards,
    Space Cadet Pobersky

    "Never give up. Never surrender. Never think things through." - The Simpsons
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    267
    Gen 11:9 can be read
    therefore hath [one] called its name Babel, for there overflow (balal) YHWH shore's all the earth
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •