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Thread: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

  1. #1 Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

    In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
    A good trait to my mind.

    Except for sexual matters.

    With these sins and temptations, Muslims hide their temptation away, with clothing and social separation, and never face and conquer this particular group of sins. An example of this would be weddings where the females are separated from the males.

    Know that some are more liberal than others and there is some liberalization but think that this is not the common Muslim.

    Why is there a double standard?

    Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.

    Thoughts?

    Regards
    DL


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  3. #2  
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    Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.
    It can't be conquered, only avoided. 8)


    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
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  4. #3 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Face and conquer
    Like how? Gambling is a sin. So how are Muslims supposed to face and conquer that, if it looks like fun.

    I dunno. I wonder if you aren't just wanting to see people uncomfortable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.
    It can't be conquered, only avoided. 8)
    So much for the strength of character that comes from effort.
    This would mean that Muslins will never conquer their fears.

    This is not the Islam I thought I knew. It is not usually a cowardly religion.

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    DL
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  6. #5 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Face and conquer
    Like how? Gambling is a sin. So how are Muslims supposed to face and conquer that, if it looks like fun.

    I dunno. I wonder if you aren't just wanting to see people uncomfortable.
    I do. That is when they learn and heaven forbid, think.

    When they are, that is when they are purifying themselves.

    So why is gambling a sin if it is fun?

    Sin usually has someone who is hurt somehow by the practice of something or has a complaint that comes directly from those actions.

    Who is saying gambling is a sin and why?

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    DL
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.
    It can't be conquered, only avoided. 8)
    There is a such thing as abstinence. It's not biologically adaptive, but as far as spirituality/religiosity goes, it plays a big role in some ideologies.




    Gambling can be seen as coveting thy neighbors goods, but in general it can also be seen as stealing and/or acquiring goods dishonestly.

    Gambling, like credit/interest, doesn't add to the production of a population, it just rearranges wealth. Favoring those who have more, rather than those who work more.

    Muslims consider gathering interest on an investment to be a sin as well.

    As a whole it seems to be a way to make a more productive people, focusing on diligence and hard work, instead of taking risks and thinking cunningly.

    People who gamble are more likely to do other things, like participate in unhealthy and anti social behaviors such as drug use, violence, and theft. It may be because of social stereotypes, but I wonder if it has something to do with the neural activity involved in gambling, stimulating and "strengthening" parts of the brain that influence one's behavior to acting more individualistically, opportunistically, impulsively and ultimately criminally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Face and conquer, so to speak, other sins, but hide from sexual ones.
    It can't be conquered, only avoided. 8)
    There is a such thing as abstinence. It's not biologically adaptive, but as far as spirituality/religiosity goes, it plays a big role in some ideologies.




    Gambling can be seen as coveting thy neighbors goods, but in general it can also be seen as stealing and/or acquiring goods dishonestly.

    Gambling, like credit/interest, doesn't add to the production of a population, it just rearranges wealth. Favoring those who have more, rather than those who work more.

    Muslims consider gathering interest on an investment to be a sin as well.

    As a whole it seems to be a way to make a more productive people, focusing on diligence and hard work, instead of taking risks and thinking cunningly.

    People who gamble are more likely to do other things, like participate in unhealthy and anti social behaviors such as drug use, violence, and theft. It may be because of social stereotypes, but I wonder if it has something to do with the neural activity involved in gambling, stimulating and "strengthening" parts of the brain that influence one's behavior to acting more individualistically, opportunistically, impulsively and ultimately criminally.
    Gambling leads to criminality.

    This is just too silly for me to comment on.

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    DL
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  9. #8  
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    No, that's not what I said at all, go ahead and read it again. Correlation doesn't imply causation...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    Gambling leads to criminality.

    This is just too silly for me to comment on.

    Regards
    DL
    Actually, this has been extensively studied in Quebec, because gambling institutions are owned by the government.

    Although, I would credit gambling's effect on addictive personalities with the correlation with crime and drug use. People who become addicted to gambling become poor, poor people are more likely to steal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am

    Gambling leads to criminality.

    This is just too silly for me to comment on.

    Regards
    DL
    Actually, this has been extensively studied in Quebec, because gambling institutions are owned by the government.

    Although, I would credit gambling's effect on addictive personalities with the correlation with crime and drug use. People who become addicted to gambling become poor, poor people are more likely to steal.
    Addictive personalities are risk takers. Non risk taker then will not be thieves. They are more likely to be on welfare instead of the risk taking areas of life.

    Is that a good thing? I do not think so especially when psychological reports indicate that risk takers are better adjusted than those who are not.

    Count the non addictive personalities. There are not many.

    Thank God for that.
    Addictive personalities are risk takers. Non risk taker then will not be thieves. They are more likely to be on welfare instead of the risk taking areas of life.

    Is that a good thing? I do not think so especially when psychological reports indicate that risk takers are better adjusted than those who are not.

    Count the non addictive personalities. There are not many.

    Thank God for that.

    As to addictive activity of all types, you might note that that number is rather small as compared to what the majority are doing. This is not to say that we should not feel and help those who become addicted but it does say that policy should be written for the many and not for the few.

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    DL
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  12. #11  
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    I'm not so sure that stealing always poses a risk.

    My premise being: a good thief is not only good at stealing, but good at calculating and avoiding risk

    it might be that some thieves, depending on their lives, have determined(right or wrong) that stealing is less financially risky, than allowing others to decide what they will pay you, and when they will fire you. That comes down to one's abilities, since you get paid what your abilities are worth to a company, and you work for them as long as your abilities are needed.


    Now as far as addiction being a cause for risk taking, it may be a cause of some risk taking, but I am not so sure it is the cause of all risk taking.



    You thought it was silly when I said "People who gamble are more likely to do other things, like participate in unhealthy and anti social behaviors"
    although you did misunderstand what I meant, because this in no way means "Gambling causes[leads to] criminality"

    the point being, if what I said was silly, what your saying is stoic... that is, my lack of seriousness allows me to consider possibilities, while your seriousness seems to confine you to your own opinions. I'm not preaching the mantra "open your mind" because that doesn't mean anything, but what I am saying--this time in reference to what your saying--is that correlation doesn't imply causation

    what is a risk taker and what is a thief? you undoubtedly have definitions framed specifically for your statement, I'd like to hear them
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I'm not so sure that stealing always poses a risk.

    My premise being: a good thief is not only good at stealing, but good at calculating and avoiding risk

    it might be that some thieves, depending on their lives, have determined(right or wrong) that stealing is less financially risky, than allowing others to decide what they will pay you, and when they will fire you. That comes down to one's abilities, since you get paid what your abilities are worth to a company, and you work for them as long as your abilities are needed.


    Now as far as addiction being a cause for risk taking, it may be a cause of some risk taking, but I am not so sure it is the cause of all risk taking.



    You thought it was silly when I said "People who gamble are more likely to do other things, like participate in unhealthy and anti social behaviors"
    although you did misunderstand what I meant, because this in no way means "Gambling causes[leads to] criminality"

    the point being, if what I said was silly, what your saying is stoic... that is, my lack of seriousness allows me to consider possibilities, while your seriousness seems to confine you to your own opinions. I'm not preaching the mantra "open your mind" because that doesn't mean anything, but what I am saying--this time in reference to what your saying--is that correlation doesn't imply causation

    what is a risk taker and what is a thief? you undoubtedly have definitions framed specifically for your statement, I'd like to hear them
    No special definitions.

    A thief steals.

    A risk taker is a person who will try something IE, drinking to excess or trying some other drug, just to see if, in his own opinion, it is something he should be doing.

    In other words he will try things that seem reasonably safe even as he is not 100 % sure of the outcome.

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    DL
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  14. #13 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

    In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
    A good trait to my mind.

    Except for sexual matters.
    I disagree that sexual matters are the only type of sin where they behave this way. Alcohol, for example, is simply banned by law and thus not available in most of the more hard-line muslim countries. The same goes for most sorts of "subversive" or "tempting" media or literature, not just sexual stuff.
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    I'm not asking for a special definition, just a definitive one

    If you think "stealing" is any more definitive than "thief" why do you think we have legislation defining a variety of property crimes, and rights?

    Stealing is defined by the law, it's not as simple as "taking something that doesn't belong to you" because, you now need to define what belongs to whome, and what taking constitutes.

    Laws are very complex, because words have multiple meanings

    So please try better to define the words, it's not special to do so, but actually quite ordinary when trying to discuss specific things.
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  16. #15 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex?

    In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
    A good trait to my mind.

    Except for sexual matters.
    I disagree that sexual matters are the only type of sin where they behave this way. Alcohol, for example, is simply banned by law and thus not available in most of the more hard-line muslim countries. The same goes for most sorts of "subversive" or "tempting" media or literature, not just sexual stuff.
    That being the case, they further weaken their characters by not facing up to these other challenges.

    One cannot conquer an enemy without facing him.

    As I said above, I like their idea of facing down sin and think they and we should do it with all sin.

    Regards
    DL
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  17. #16  
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    Are ambition, pride and judgment of others, sins?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Are ambition, pride and judgment of others, sins?
    Usually not but if taken to the extreme then perhaps.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Are ambition, pride and judgment of others, sins?
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Usually not but if taken to the extreme then perhaps.
    If there is a "scientific study" going on in this thread, it certainly escapes me.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    A risk taker is a person who will try something IE, drinking to excess or trying some other drug, just to see if, in his own opinion, it is something he should be doing.

    In other words he will try things that seem reasonably safe even as he is not 100 % sure of the outcome.
    No the heart of the risk taker - how it differs from "normal people" - is that while normal people just feel kinda queazy when going through a risk, risk-takers also get a shot of endorphins that make them euphoric. It's in the genes.

    I see you understand that risk is subjective, so every culture offers a unique menu of perceived risks. Your average American does not feel much risk in just turning on Hollywood TV, basking in whatever furious dysfunctions happen to be showing. But an Iranian is hard hit, and likely finds one minute loaded with the Mind of Hollywood quite enough. Most will simply come away revolted, like you might feel after... well, I don't know your surfing habits. :wink: The risk-takers however got kicks in both directions, so they may go back again and again, if they can strike subjective balance. They flirt with risk for risk's sake.

    Religion is social engineering. The effect of saying "Don't marry her, she's a gambler" is to quickly remove gambling from the population. Then gambling becomes a rare aberration, not only because the cultural environment lacks positive models of gamblers or gambling venues, but in this case the genes have been selected out. Or maybe just that pure expression of the trait is unavailable, so Muslims seek other expressions? Could explain the moral bravery of Muslims you observe. :?

    Asking a gambler to confront the moral peril of gambling itself, is metagaming. It's raising the risk to a higher level. So the risk-taker gains kicks just flirting with the idea that she might be tempted to gamble.

    Without a survey that's just speculation.



    Anyhow, Greatest I am, I think your relative insensitivity to all things sexy makes Muslims seem "cowardly" as you say. I think they do confront the "sin" of sex but not at the graphic level you're familiar with.
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  21. #20  
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    indeed harold, i think this subsection needs a new mod
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    A risk taker is a person who will try something IE, drinking to excess or trying some other drug, just to see if, in his own opinion, it is something he should be doing.

    In other words he will try things that seem reasonably safe even as he is not 100 % sure of the outcome.
    No the heart of the risk taker - how it differs from "normal people" - is that while normal people just feel kinda queazy when going through a risk, risk-takers also get a shot of endorphins that make them euphoric. It's in the genes.

    I see you understand that risk is subjective, so every culture offers a unique menu of perceived risks. Your average American does not feel much risk in just turning on Hollywood TV, basking in whatever furious dysfunctions happen to be showing. But an Iranian is hard hit, and likely finds one minute loaded with the Mind of Hollywood quite enough. Most will simply come away revolted, like you might feel after... well, I don't know your surfing habits. :wink: The risk-takers however got kicks in both directions, so they may go back again and again, if they can strike subjective balance. They flirt with risk for risk's sake.

    Religion is social engineering. The effect of saying "Don't marry her, she's a gambler" is to quickly remove gambling from the population. Then gambling becomes a rare aberration, not only because the cultural environment lacks positive models of gamblers or gambling venues, but in this case the genes have been selected out. Or maybe just that pure expression of the trait is unavailable, so Muslims seek other expressions? Could explain the moral bravery of Muslims you observe. :?

    Asking a gambler to confront the moral peril of gambling itself, is metagaming. It's raising the risk to a higher level. So the risk-taker gains kicks just flirting with the idea that she might be tempted to gamble.

    Without a survey that's just speculation.



    Anyhow, Greatest I am, I think your relative insensitivity to all things sexy makes Muslims seem "cowardly" as you say. I think they do confront the "sin" of sex but not at the graphic level you're familiar with.
    Muslims then all have less imagination than all others where sex is the issue??

    Ok.

    I wonder if that comes with forcing the women to hide their charms.

    The less freedom of choice then leads to a better society??

    Good luck with that.

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    DL
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  23. #22  
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    This isn't politics, this is religion. "Less," and "better" are both value terms, and would need to be properly defined, as would "freedom of choice" in my opinion, since it is arguable whether such a things exists in a literal sense.

    I'm not going to participate in that discussion unless you start it in the appropriate forum, since your ignorance(serious or ironic?) deserves to be processed in such a way to reveal it's base components.



    Who are you referring to when you say "Muslims?"

    All Muslims, or particular groups of Muslims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    This isn't politics, this is religion. "Less," and "better" are both value terms, and would need to be properly defined, as would "freedom of choice" in my opinion, since it is arguable whether such a things exists in a literal sense.

    I'm not going to participate in that discussion unless you start it in the appropriate forum, since your ignorance(serious or ironic?) deserves to be processed in such a way to reveal it's base components.



    Who are you referring to when you say "Muslims?"

    All Muslims, or particular groups of Muslims?
    What forum is better?

    As far as I know, all Muslim's are adherents of Islam.
    Their are different sects but all sects believing in slaving themselves to Allah and all sects repress their women to various degrees. The Shiites being the most repressive.

    Note the new, so called, rape laws of Afghanistan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What forum is better?
    How about one of these?
    http://topmuslimforums.wordpress.com/
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    Tell you what, Greatest I am. Go to a gay beach with a nickle to your name, and your buns hanging out, so you're going to depend on "the kindness of strangers". Naturally they're going to rate your charms. You'll probably have to work at it, to secure Mr. Right.

    Then tell me in the morning if you feel liberated.
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  27. #26  
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    I don't know enough about Islam to comment on them, but I am curious.
    By saying that all muslims repress women to some degree, are you saying that non muslims don't repress women in any degree?

    what constitutes repression?

    is there an absolute characteristic of repression, or is it an arbitrary concept placed on whatever undesired behavior is politically useful in a specific discussion? if the latter, please point out what the specific undesired behaviors are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What forum is better?
    How about one of these?
    http://topmuslimforums.wordpress.com/
    Thanks for that.
    I will check them out.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I don't know enough about Islam to comment on them, but I am curious.
    By saying that all muslims repress women to some degree, are you saying that non muslims don't repress women in any degree?
    Islam is not the only religion to repress woman. Christianity does the same.

    At least in their WORD.

    Some individuals, thank God, do not follow their WORD.

    what constitutes repression?
    Ask a female.
    Generally speaking though, reciprocity is fair play.

    is there an absolute characteristic of repression, or is it an arbitrary concept placed on whatever undesired behavior is politically useful in a specific discussion? if the latter, please point out what the specific undesired behaviors are.
    Simply stated, repression would be doing unto others what we would not do to ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Tell you what, Greatest I am. Go to a gay beach with a nickle to your name, and your buns hanging out, so you're going to depend on "the kindness of strangers". Naturally they're going to rate your charms. You'll probably have to work at it, to secure Mr. Right.

    Then tell me in the morning if you feel liberated.
    You need a shrink.

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  31. #30  
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    Well, there is a such thing as "if, then" logic

    for example if I accepted that if I was a woman, I'd would wear a headdress, or I would get beat

    then it would not be repressive for me to beat women who didn't wear headdresses.


    of course you don't mean to imply this, maybe you didn't think out your explanation very well, so feel free to elucidate on your actual meaning.
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Tell you what, Greatest I am. Go to a gay beach with a nickle to your name, and your buns hanging out, so you're going to depend on "the kindness of strangers". Naturally they're going to rate your charms. You'll probably have to work at it, to secure Mr. Right.

    Then tell me in the morning if you feel liberated.
    You need a shrink.
    It's a thought experiment regarding "forcing the women to hide their charms" which you won't entertain.

    I guess you believe western women promote themselves physically because they are free to do so. You don't see fathers pushing Barbie on their daughters, so the girls' behavior does not seem contrived or coerced.

    *sigh* Well, there's a Pandora's Box to derail your thread. I can tell already our understanding of male & female roles is irreconcilable. I admit my views heavily tainted by feminist programming. So better let it go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Well, there is a such thing as "if, then" logic

    for example if I accepted that if I was a woman, I'd would wear a headdress, or I would get beat

    then it would not be repressive for me to beat women who didn't wear headdresses.


    of course you don't mean to imply this, maybe you didn't think out your explanation very well, so feel free to elucidate on your actual meaning.
    You are right. I did not mean such.

    Let women decide what women should wear.

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  34. #33  
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    but don't let society decide what society will wear?
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    not where society decides that women are wares.
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  36. #35  
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    I'm under the impression that society includes women, you seem to disagree with this while assirting their humanity... slightly fishy, I understand though, it's a complex topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    but don't let society decide what society will wear?
    The old laws targeted apparel true.

    New ones would not likely do such.

    It is the large ticket items or frivolous spending that would be the target.

    25 million $ trips to space and billion $ atom smashers and military spending. This type of unjustifiable spending while people starve to death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMR80606
    not where society decides that women are wares.
    It does so now.

    Think seal skin and bird feathers.

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    I sense some latent sexism.

    You are talking about gender equality, but consider women to be subject to society and not a part of it... interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I sense some latent sexism.

    You are talking about gender equality, but consider women to be subject to society and not a part of it... interesting
    Hogwash.

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    If I misunderstand your language I appoligize lets recap.


    I suggested that women are a part of the societies that decide what women should wear... is this not accurate?

    I'm not implying that women have equal political, social or economic power, but they have abilities to participate in the society; and they are learning this more and more lately in places that they used to be more repressed in.

    Equality is not a matter of having equality given to you, but in realizing your equality.

    Everyone has to fight to be who they want to be, unless what they want to be is already accepted. But if you want any power, and someone else wants it to, there is going to be a conflict; whether it's the power to eat a particular fruit, or the power to decide what kind of society you want to live in.
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    "I suggested that women are a part of the societies that decide what women should wear... is this not accurate?"



    You seem to be suggesting this as an ethical imperative. Whether it is accurate or not is only meaningful in the context of a society that accepts it as such. I would suggest that some societies do not.

    It is not sexist to comment that the repression of women in such societies is unethical. Whether or not it is ethical or wise to intervene is another matter.
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    Ethical imperative huh? I just read marcusclayman including women in his concept of society, like including pong in the concept of ping pong.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    perhaps i am misunderstanding the word 'society'.
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    In a community in which men treat women as possessions, and where the women in the community accept this, there is no conflict in saying that the community (of men and women) treats women as possessions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMR80606
    In a community in which men treat women as possessions, and where the women in the community accept this, there is no conflict in saying that the community (of men and women) treats women as possessions.
    If Muslims are at issue in your statement then it is explainable by the fact that Islam promotes slavery to Allah. Muslims do not seem to mind having a slave master for all of them and this might be ok if the women of Islam were not designated as a lesser slave than the men. All slaves should be equal instead of the males being sub masters for Allah.

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    [quote="marcusclayman"]If I misunderstand your language I appoligize lets recap.


    I suggested that women are a part of the societies that decide what women should wear... is this not accurate?

    quote]

    In some societies it is correct.

    In Islam, it seems not to be the case. At least not for the women and girls that die at the hands of their men because they will not obey.

    This speaks to the O P.
    The men are saying dress as I say so that you will hide any temptations from me and in this way they do not accept the challenge of self purification and immunize themselves to temptation.

    Compared to how they face other challenges, this looks cowardly.

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  48. #47  
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    Do the men have standards of dress? can they walk around naked, can they wear shawls?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Do the men have standards of dress?
    Yes, as I understand it.

    can they walk around naked, can they wear shawls?
    Why not.
    They may want to watch for where they walk naked and keep a shawl handy in case it gets cold but all of us can do so, not just Muslims.

    Kind of reminds me of a song.

    Inch worm, inch worm where have you---etc.


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  50. #49  
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    my point with this discourse, is not to prove that it is ok to tell others what to do, but to raise question as whether it is ok for our culture to tell other cultures what they can't do, since all these peculiarities we are discussing are particular to cultures; and our reaction to them are undoubtedly particular to our own cultures.
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    In the UK there are millions of muslims, so i think Islam must be considered part of the wider culture here. As such, i think where Islam conflicts with the wider culture, it is not just up to muslims to resolve the conflict - it is everybody's problem.

    At the moment the accepted approach for a non-muslim to take seems to be moral relativism, which i feel is perhaps a bit irresponsible and evasive. I would like to see stronger support for the more liberal and progressive sections of the muslim community here in the UK.

    I think maybe a problem that a movement like feminism would face within Islam is that immigration from
    poorly developed countries constantly reinforces the traditional interpretation, so the conflict never goes away.

    GreatestIAm, you need to consider that the Islamic faith is held in circumstances as contrasted as the most prestigious UK or American universities and pre-industrial rural pakistan. There is probably no interpretation of Islam that two such people wouldn't argue over for the reat of enternity; including the role of sexuality in Jihad.
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  52. #51 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
    A good trait to my mind.
    I don't think so. Labelling things as sins creates so many problems like being ashamed of your sexuality or your weight (constant dieting for example).
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  53. #52  
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    Is shame a problem, in and of itself?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Is shame a problem, in and of itself?
    Hmm ... yeeees. (am I walking into a trap here !!!!!?)

    Discomfort with yourself is a problem, perhaps the only problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    my point with this discourse, is not to prove that it is ok to tell others what to do, but to raise question as whether it is ok for our culture to tell other cultures what they can't do, since all these peculiarities we are discussing are particular to cultures; and our reaction to them are undoubtedly particular to our own cultures.
    Our culture, their culture, our nation, their nation all become meaningless when a ship is sinking.
    We are all in this together.
    Polluted air and water have no boundaries and to think that we do not have an effect on each other is silly.

    Cultures all follow their man made rules. All of theses differences and rules can and must change.

    We must begin thinking of ourselves as a world culture if world problems are to be solved.

    Note how developed countries want to reduce our carbon footprint while other developing nations plan on increasing their carbon footprint. We are working against each other instead of finding ways, like sumptuary laws to work together.

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  56. #55 Re: Muslims see sin as a challenge, except for sex? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    In speaking with Muslims, I have found that they see sin as something to be conquered and they are not shy about taking on the challenge of fighting their desires for sin.
    A good trait to my mind.
    I don't think so. Labelling things as sins creates so many problems like being ashamed of your sexuality or your weight (constant dieting for example).
    There is nothing wrong with saying that something is a sin or crime or wrong as long as it can be clearly shown as wrong.

    It is when what you wear or not, or eat or not, or think or not that naming such idiocies as sin that is wrong.

    We all judge and must continue to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Is shame a problem, in and of itself?
    Hmm ... yeeees. (am I walking into a trap here !!!!!?)

    Discomfort with yourself is a problem, perhaps the only problem.
    Shame is good.

    It shows that there is work to do.

    For evil to grow, all good, unashamed men need do is nothing.

    Good men should feel the shame of belonging to a species that passes laws like they did in Afghanistan. I refer to the so called rape laws.

    It should bring shame to all of us when we see this.

    No?

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  58. #57  
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Is shame a problem, in and of itself?
    Hmm ... yeeees. (am I walking into a trap here !!!!!?)

    Discomfort with yourself is a problem, perhaps the only problem.
    What do you mean by "problem," and "discomfort with yourself?"

    in this last post by "greatest"

    I agree with everything except "should"

    we have no obligation to ever feel shame under such circumstances. Although I am fond of people who do, I try do not despise those who don't,as I think it's more pragmatic to despise the behavior, not the individual when one of us probably doesn't know any better(who am I to decide which is which?)

    I prefer to make room for change, because I'm not very confident in confidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Quote Originally Posted by rideforever
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Is shame a problem, in and of itself?
    Hmm ... yeeees. (am I walking into a trap here !!!!!?)

    Discomfort with yourself is a problem, perhaps the only problem.
    What do you mean by "problem," and "discomfort with yourself?"

    in this last post by "greatest"

    I agree with everything except "should"

    we have no obligation to ever feel shame under such circumstances. Although I am fond of people who do, I try do not despise those who don't,as I think it's more pragmatic to despise the behavior, not the individual when one of us probably doesn't know any better(who am I to decide which is which?)

    .
    Strange wording. English is not my first language so it may be the way I read.

    If you do not think that shame is the right word for what you should feel even as you are fond of people that do, what word would you use to describe how you feel when you see your fellow man creating such laws?
    Disapointment, rage, disgust?

    I did not say that I despised them BTW. Pity for their minds may be closer to my feelings after I get over the shame.

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    I didn't say anything about the wording. I just don't agree that we "should," IE, "have an obligation to," feel shame, in any circumstance.

    I like that people do feel shame in some circumstances, that doesn't make it morally obligatory to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    What do you mean by "problem," and "discomfort with yourself?"

    in this last post by "greatest"
    It depends what you a culture is attempting to impose shame on. It doesn't help anyone to be promoting that women should be ashamed of sexual desire, or about sexual orientation. These kinds of institutions just promote self-worth issues that are pernicious to the well being of the individual.
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    replacing one ambiguity with another does the opposite of clarifying semantics
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    replacing one ambiguity with another does the opposite of clarifying semantics
    Well if you want me to define "pernicious to the well being", as in concerns over sexual orientation are the #1 cited reason for suicide amongst males. This is produced by a culture that makes people ashamed over their sexual orientation. This isn't a good thing.
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    Can you provide me with a resource? I'm curious whether those surveys are done pre or post op... excuse my cynicism, I don't mean to imply we are incapable of determining things indirectly, I'm just making a horribly insensitive humor joke
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I didn't say anything about the wording. I just don't agree that we "should," IE, "have an obligation to," feel shame, in any circumstance.

    I like that people do feel shame in some circumstances, that doesn't make it morally obligatory to do so.
    For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing.
    Not feeling shame and voicing it in a case like this is doing nothing.

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  66. #65 Sex Toys 
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    I think the best way to turn a guy on to sex toys is to actually show him what they can do and how hot they can be. You can always try by surprising him with one of his own like a vibrating cock ring or a masturbator.
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    EDIT anticipating above spam-bot post deletion:
    Quote Originally Posted by sextoys
    I think the best way to turn a guy on to sex toys is to actually show him what they can do and how hot they can be. You can always try by surprising him with one of his own like a vibrating cock ring or a masturbator.
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  68. #67  
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    "For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing."

    The Muslims you are talking about might have a similar parable. That's the danger with many a self evident truth, their meaning is subjective.


    "Not feeling shame and voicing it in a case like this is doing nothing. "

    So you must think feeling shame is not evil, no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "For evil to grow, all good men need do is nothing."

    The Muslims you are talking about might have a similar parable. That's the danger with many a self evident truth, their meaning is subjective.


    "Not feeling shame and voicing it in a case like this is doing nothing. "

    So you must think feeling shame is not evil, no?
    Feeling shame is good.
    It shows that you are judging and see evil in your species.
    If you do not see evil in your species then you are blind.
    Like repentance.
    If you never repent it would mean that you do not recognize the sins that you have done.
    This would indicate that you must work on your lack of a moral sense.

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    Is all shame a judgment/observance of evil?
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Is all shame a judgment/observance of evil?
    I think so. This seems obvious.
    Do you have an example otherwise?

    One is not ashamed of doing or seeing good within his brothers.

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    Shame of being ashamed.
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