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Thread: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator?

  1. #1 Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    It has been my experience in dealing with the "faithful" that every single one of them wants, and this is important, WANTS to believe in a God. They really HOPE there is a God and a reward that awaits them. Most believers are not knowledgeable about biology, astronomy, paleontolgy, etc. But even the believers who are somewhat knowledgeable in those areas still share the "desire" to believe. I have never seen anybody who is "indifferent" to a God profess their belief in him simply because they examined the evidence and concluded that a God must exist. I've never seen anybody who believes a God most likely exists, yet hopes it isn't so (see Christopher Hitchens, Matt Dillahunty, for reasons why one would hope it isn't so). It's obvious to me that with desire as a starting point, the believers simply rationalize everything else to conform to their views. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that without the desire to believe in God, there would be no believers. Your thoughts?

    Ron


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  3. #2  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    A related question: what percentage of believers also believe, automatically, in an afterlife? I suspect it is a very large percentage.


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  4. #3 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Your thoughts?

    Ron
    My thoughts are, this is another useless thread with little to no science content, posted in the "Scientific Study of Religion" forum, which has become a place for atheists to congregate to congratulate themselves on their enlightened point of view.
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  5. #4  
    Ron
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    An interesting link...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg

    Ron
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  6. #5 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Your thoughts?

    Ron
    My thoughts are, this is another useless thread with little to no science content, posted in the "Scientific Study of Religion" forum, which has become a place for atheists to congregate to congratulate themselves on their enlightened point of view.

    Obviously not useless enough to prevent you from posting. And what would you say qualifies as "science content"? Please "enlighten" us.

    Ron
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  7. #6 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Obviously not useless enough to prevent you from posting. And what would you say qualifies as "science content"? Please "enlighten" us.

    Ron
    You know. Science. As in hypotheses that can be tested and proven by observation or experiment.
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  8. #7  
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    It often seems that desire is a big part of it. Many christians, for example, will say something like "But don't you want to go to heaven?!" if they find out I'm an atheist. My usual response is "Of course! Who wouldn't?" which usually confuses them...
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  9. #8 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    Obviously not useless enough to prevent you from posting. And what would you say qualifies as "science content"? Please "enlighten" us.

    Ron
    You know. Science. As in hypotheses that can be tested and proven by observation or experiment.
    Ah yes - a hypothesis that can be tested and proven by observation and experiment. Well here's my little experiment; I hypothesize that Harold will continue to try and derail threads by attacking the atheists. Now let's all observe and see what happens. Isn't science wonderful?


    Ron
    :-)
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  10. #9 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Veracity Vigilante inow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    It has been my experience in dealing with the "faithful" that every single one of them wants, and this is important, WANTS to believe in a God.
    How have you confirmed that they all "want to believe in god?" How have you confirmed that is the case? Maybe some of them would prefer not, but have been taught that they will get into lots of eternal hellfire-style trouble if they stop believing. I think that's Harold's point. You're basing this on your own perceptions, making an assertion in the absolute, an assertion which may or may not be accurate.
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  11. #10 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    It has been my experience in dealing with the "faithful" that every single one of them wants, and this is important, WANTS to believe in a God.
    How have you confirmed that they all "want to believe in god?" How have you confirmed that is the case? Maybe some of them would prefer not, but have been taught that they will get into lots of eternal hellfire-style trouble if they stop believing. I think that's Harold's point. You're basing this on your own perceptions, making an assertion in the absolute, an assertion which may or may not be accurate.
    How have I confirmed? By asking them!

    That's an interesting point you make about some who would prefer not to believe, but have been taught that they will get into lots of eternal hellfire trouble if they stop. I have never come across that sort of believer. Have you? Can they really be considered a believer if that's the case? I suppose it's possible, but if they prefer not to believe, but do so anyway just to avoid the consequences for not believing, then they're essentially "fake" Christians and will probably end up in hellfire anyway!

    And yes, as I said, these are my perceptions based on my experiences. So they are absolutely 100% accurate in regards to MY experiences.

    Ron
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  12. #11 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    And yes, as I said, these are my perceptions based on my experiences. So they are absolutely 100% accurate in regards to MY experiences.

    Ron
    A science forum is not a good place to talk about your private personal experiences, Ron. What if somebody said they had a personal experience with God? Would that be good fodder for the science forum?
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  13. #12 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    And yes, as I said, these are my perceptions based on my experiences. So they are absolutely 100% accurate in regards to MY experiences.

    Ron
    A science forum is not a good place to talk about your private personal experiences, Ron. What if somebody said they had a personal experience with God? Would that be good fodder for the science forum?

    There's a difference between talking about specifics, naming names, etc. and talking about my perceptions based on my general experiences. This forum is loaded with posts of people expressing their perceptions based on their personal experiences. And, besides, it is the science and religion forum after all.

    PS - If I had originally posted in support of faith, would you have been quite so critical? I doubt it, based on your earlier atheists comment. But that's alright. Harold is OK, by me. :-)

    Ron
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  14. #13 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I hypothesize that Harold will continue to try and derail threads by attacking the atheists
    This is bad science, you can't ever allow your subjects to know the intention of your study.

    Which brings me to the point of my response

    "How have I confirmed? By asking them!"

    How many of them did you ask? How did you ask them? and specifically, what were the socio-economic, racial and cultural backgrounds of your subjects?

    A survey -- given to random people, from a variety of backgrounds -- asking a multitude of personal questions, with a few specific to religious beliefs mixed in randomly would be acceptable as science.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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  15. #14 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    I hypothesize that Harold will continue to try and derail threads by attacking the atheists
    This is bad science, you can't ever allow your subjects to know the intention of your study.

    Which brings me to the point of my response

    "How have I confirmed? By asking them!"

    How many of them did you ask? How did you ask them? and specifically, what were the socio-economic, racial and cultural backgrounds of your subjects?

    A survey -- given to random people, from a variety of backgrounds -- asking a multitude of personal questions, with a few specific to religious beliefs mixed in randomly would be acceptable as science.

    It's OK for Harold to know the intention of my "study." He's a good fellow. :-)

    Perhaps you need to re-read my original post.

    Any thoughts on "desire" as a motivator for religious belief? Please share your opinion.

    Regards,
    Ron
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  16. #15  
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    The reason you shouldn't tell your subjects about the intention of your study, is not because of their virtues -- or lack there of -- as people, but because it threatens the validity of the results.

    Hence why asking someone questions is not always the best way to get honest answers, especially when you want to use those answers to make generalizations about entire populations.

    First things first, how many people did you ask?

    We need to clerify whether what you say is true or not, before we can discuss the cause of it being as you say it is.

    It's like someone who doesn't know what God is asking "Where did God come from?"

    It doesn't work like that. Unless you want to discuss hypotheticals.
    Dick, be Frank.

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  17. #16  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    The reason you shouldn't tell your subjects about the intention of your study, is not because of their virtues -- or lack there of -- as people, but because it threatens the validity of the results.

    Hence why asking someone questions is not always the best way to get honest answers, especially when you want to use those answers to make generalizations about entire populations.

    First things first, how many people did you ask?

    We need to clerify whether what you say is true or not, before we can discuss the cause of it being as you say it is.

    It's like someone who doesn't know what God is asking "Where did God come from?"

    It doesn't work like that. Unless you want to discuss hypotheticals.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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  18. #17 Re: Desire As The Prime Belief Motivator? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    It has been my experience in dealing with the "faithful" that every single one of them wants, and this is important, WANTS to believe in a God. They really HOPE there is a God and a reward that awaits them. Most believers are not knowledgeable about biology, astronomy, paleontolgy, etc. But even the believers who are somewhat knowledgeable in those areas still share the "desire" to believe. I have never seen anybody who is "indifferent" to a God profess their belief in him simply because they examined the evidence and concluded that a God must exist. I've never seen anybody who believes a God most likely exists, yet hopes it isn't so (see Christopher Hitchens, Matt Dillahunty, for reasons why one would hope it isn't so). It's obvious to me that with desire as a starting point, the believers simply rationalize everything else to conform to their views. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that without the desire to believe in God, there would be no believers. Your thoughts?

    Ron
    Its not clear why you find the notion of desire being the starting point for any endeavor indicative of something strange.
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