Notices
Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Questions for which we all seek answers

  1. #1 Questions for which we all seek answers 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    2
    ¬*¬* Where did we come from?
    ¬*¬*¬* Why are we here?
    ¬*¬*¬* And, where are we going after the this life?
    ¬*¬* ¬* These are the questions that mankind has struggled to find answers to from before recorded history. Many claim to have the answers and great religions have been organized around and in support of these proposed answers.¬* Finding the answers to these questions is a journey that we all will take some time in our life time.¬* Some people's journeys are as close as just accepting the beliefs of their forefathers with little or no questioning.¬* Others search out to answers from among the many and varied teachings of the religions of the day.¬* Yet there are others that have a need to find their own answers, look at the evidence for themselves and come to formulate their own answer. Is it important that you settle on the correct answer (if there is one)?¬* Many religions teach that yes indeed it is important and if you don't come to believe as they teach your eternal soul could be in jeopardy.
    ¬*¬*¬* My conclusion is that, for the most part, the religious beliefs and teachings of the various religions of the world are self serving. And are designed more to enslave their members to that religious dogma. The purpose of which is to bring power and money to the leaders of that religion.¬* I am not saying that religions don't do ‚ÄĚgood‚ÄĚ with this power and money, indeed many do much ‚ÄĚgood‚ÄĚ.¬* And the amount good that they do for humanity, varies from religion to religion. And to quantify the good that they do is near impossible because this is a subjective call that each individual looking at a religion will come to different conclusions.¬* Suffice it to say that all religions do good and provide comfort and answers to their members.
    ¬*¬*¬* I have found no religion that provides answers that are not self serving and to me none provide ‚Äúplausible‚ÄĚ answers.¬* So, I have sought out my own answers, to find answers that are plausible to me, by looking at Nature, the Universe, Science, and even religious thought and teaching. There are truths to be learned every where you look.¬* I have come to some answers that seem plausible to me. But, unlike religions I do not seek to convince you to believe in my answers. My answers simply work for me. You need to seek your own answers and find comfort and peace in your own beliefs. For you this might be in traditional religious teachings.¬* The important thing is that you find comfort and peace in the knowledge that the universe is unfolding as planned and that you have a role, a purpose and place in it.
    ¬*¬*¬* As for the answers that I have found, let me elaborate.¬* I will start at the beginning, before the Universe began. But before I start I need to define some words/concepts to make my discussion more understandable.
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 1) Synergy: the most basic law of the universe. All of creation could not have been accomplished without synergy.¬* Indeed synergy is the true order of love. It is love in it's most pure form.
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 2) Glory is the knowledge and power. The level of your glory determines where you are at in your eternal progression.
    ¬*¬* Before there were stars in the heavens, there were intelligences.¬* Over eons of time, these intelligences formulated a plan to allow increase in Glory through Synergy and obtain eternal progression and to create increase and a never ending process of development..
    ¬*¬*¬* The intelligences devised a plan that would allow them to grow in Glory progressing through many stages of development. Some of these stages are:¬*
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 1) Intelligence our initial existence and the lowest level of Glory.
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 2) Spirit existence a higher level of Glory.
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 3) Mortal embodied spirit (our current state) a higher level of Glory
    ¬*¬*¬*¬* 4) Immortal embodied spirit (a god)¬* even¬* higher level of Glory
    Before¬* the start of the physical universe, all that occupied space was¬* the intelligences. The intelligences wanted to increase in numbers but it was impossible¬* for them to do so in the state that they currently exists. So a¬* plan was devised that would allow them to grow in Glory. This plan¬* was called Synergy, or the true order of¬* love. Just as the Intelligences before the Universe began¬* had always existed, they had no beginning and they will have no¬* end, so too did synergy always exist. The intelligences just had¬* to grow in Glory to the point that they could recognize the concept.¬* Through synergy intelligences are able to bond or coalesce with¬* other intelligences and began to form spirits and physical matter. This bonding allowed¬* intelligences to grow in Glory. Through the synergy of all the Spirits¬* and Intelligences, they were able to spark the beginning of the¬* universe. Some scientist call this the Big Bang
    A perfect metaphor for this, is the¬*process of the growth of the human body.¬* You start out as an egg and sperm that unite through Synergy and be come one and begin the process of growth in Glory that eventually leads to the adult human.¬* And at the various stages in this growth you poses varying degrees/levels of Glory (knowledge & power).¬* Likewise, intelligences came together, to bond, to become one, and to raise their Glory sufficiently to become spirits, having a spirit body. Spirits organized much like intelligences had into groups with similar levels of Glory.
    ¬*¬*¬* Some intelligences, because of their level of Glory coalesced into physical matter while others coalesced into spirits.¬* The spirits further organized into Family Groups and Soul-Mate Groups and where lead by spirits that where at the greatest level of Glory.¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*¬*
    ¬*¬*¬* Spirits¬* range in varying degrees of Glory. Not all intelligences have become¬* Spirits because we all increase in Glory at different rates and¬* the plan to Godhood allows two paths by which Intelligences can¬* attain Godhood. Those paths are:¬* the path of serving as the building blocks of matter¬* and the path of coalescing to form spirits that can animate the¬* physical body. At the level of Glory of Godhood, where the spirit and the body have fused, bonded, have become one,¬* immortalized.¬*At this level of Glory, you are capable¬* of creating new intelligences and thus achieve eternal life with¬* everlasting and ever expanding Glory and eternal increase.
    ¬*¬*¬* But¬* it should be noted that the rate at which you increased in Glory¬* is not necessarily constant. So a spirit that is greatest in Glory¬* at one point in time may stumble and the Glory of other spirits¬* may surpass the Glory of that spirit. It is important to remember¬* that your Glory is dependent on the synergy you have with all other¬* intelligences, spirits and gods. After attaining spirit bodies,¬* the spirits with the most Glory organized the spirits into groups.¬* These groups were further organized into families. Families of spirits¬* contain spirits of similar levels of Glory. These groups of spirits¬* were given authority over the organization of the universe into¬* galaxies, solar systems and planets and of the creation of life¬* on the planets. The families worked on varied areas of the creation¬* according to the level of Glory of that family.
    ¬*¬*¬* In¬* the spirit world, the Spirits have a perfect knowledge that is consistent¬* with their level of Glory. The spirits in these families make special¬* bonds through synergy with a few group members¬* and these groupings are called Soul-mate groupings.¬* The spirits in your Soul-mate grouping will be among the members¬* of your mortal family and close friends during your mortal existence.¬* When you take up a mortal existence you go there for several reasons,¬* through synergy to increase in your Glory and to help others increase¬* in their Glory, to work on betterment of the mortal existence on¬* the earth and to do your part in bringing to past the exaltation¬* of yourself and your family group to the next level of existence.¬* In your mortal existence there will be times that you may meet someone¬* with which that you have almost an instant connection. This is likely¬* a member of your Soul-mate group. The Soul-mates that exist in mortality¬* with you will be a huge source of support to you in accomplishing¬* the reasons and purposes for your life.
    ¬*¬*¬* As¬* the spirits increased in Glory they came to realize that to be able¬* to continue to increase in Glory they needed to be able to experience¬* life in a physical, material, mortal body. Keep in mind that we¬* mortals living today are spirits residing in a mortal body. A living¬* body cannot be animated with out a spirit residing in it. By having¬* such a body we are able to experience what is often referred to as Good or Righteousness and Evil. Only Good or¬* Righteousness will allow us to increase in Glory. But to learn this¬* we need mortal bodies. And to be able to increase our Glory we need¬* to be able to know and understand Good and Evil. In essence¬* the Good and Evil are the methods by which Glory can be attained.¬* Our goal in having a mortal body is to be able to increase in our¬* Glory in ways that can only be done in a mortal existence. We¬* learn how to gain in Glory through Good (Righteous) ways. And to¬* learn to forsake the Evil ways. The Righteous way to gain¬* Glory will add to the Glory of those you touch as well as to yourself,¬* through synergism or the true order of love. The Evil way to gain¬* Glory will take Glory away from others, leaving them weakened. But¬* the Evil way to gain Glory will not provide you with lasting¬* Glory. Glory obtained by evil is fleeting and is only temporary and you will be left with less Glory than when you started.¬* Continually using Evil to gain Glory will eventually imprison you¬* and will ultimately result in loss of some of your Glory.
    ¬*¬*¬* The¬* reason mortals will use Evil to gain Glory is because it¬* is an easy fix. They can get the sense that their Glory¬* has been raised quickly and without much effort. To often mortals¬* cut themselves off from their connections with their spirit/family¬* groups and so feel weak and insecure. To gain Glory we try to manipulate¬* or force others to surrender some of their Glory. When we successfully¬* dominate others in this way we feel a false sense of increased Glory.¬* But our victim is is left weakened and will often fight back. This¬* then breeds a fight for Glory for which both will loose. Evil is¬* the source of all conflict between mortals. They don't realize¬* (have not learned) how damaging Evil is and that it ultimately will decrease their level of Glory. One of the responsibilities¬* that all mortals have is to help our mortal kin to recognize Evil¬* and to learn to reject it and to help them learn to gain Glory through¬* the true order of love, synergy. Our spirit group and more specifically¬* our family group will be with us to help us to accomplish this¬* goal.
    ¬*¬*¬* Learning¬* to recognize Evil and to choose Righteousness is our primary purpose¬* for life but it is not our only purpose for life. However, we have¬* secondary purposes for our life. These purposes vary widely for¬* individual to individual. These purposes are sometimes referred¬* to as gifts. The talented pianist, the analytically minded scientist,¬* the deep thinking philosopher all have their gift and talent to¬* give to the betterment of the mortal state and to do their part¬* in increasing the Glory of all, who are in the mortal state and¬* to do their part in preparing the earth to move to the next level¬* of Glory and exaltation. As we learn to stay connected to our spirit¬* family and accept the promptings and guidance they bring to us,¬* we are better able to accomplish the goals of our life. These promptings¬* my come in the form of dreams, daydreams, visions and intuitions¬* that will lead us to know our mission in life. Knowing our personal¬* mission in this life will help use to better increase the Glory¬* of those around us. We can increase our receptiveness to the promptings¬* sent our way by uplifting every person that comes into our life.¬* Uplifting others is especially effective in groups where each person¬* can feel the Glory of all the others. With children,¬*this process of uplifting others, ¬*is extremely¬* important for their early security and growth. Through synergy we¬* can see the beauty and Glory of all that surrounds us. The insecurity¬* and violence that we see in our world will end when the vast majority¬* of mortals learn to listen to the promptings of their spirit/family¬* groups and turn away from Evil and begin to synergistically raise¬* the Glory of all those around them.
    ¬*¬*¬* All¬* positive emotions can synergistically expand¬*your Glory and¬* the Glory of those you touch or with whom you interact. For example:¬* Have you been in a room with someone when you sense a feeling of¬* wellbeing from just a look that they may give you or from a kind¬* word, it seems to you that they just radiate their Glory and you¬* can feel your Glory being increased by just being in their presence.¬* And, you probably have also had the opposite experience where the¬* individual seems to suck the life right out of you. These are examples¬* of Righteousness and Evil. And at their extremes you can easily¬* recognize Good from Evil. The trick is to learn to recognize Good¬* and Evil when they are not at the extreme. This requires being in¬* tune to receive the promptings from your family group and from your¬* Soul-mate group and how to recognize when your personal Glory is¬* being affected. And this can be learned. It is learned through prayer,¬* asking for direction and support through promptings, and through¬* honing of your ability to recognize the answers or the promptings¬* you receive from your family group and to recognize the "meaningful¬* coincidences" your family and Soul-mate group influences to¬* occur in your life.
    Remember¬* that Evil can allow you to increase in Glory only temporarily but at the expense of others. Those spirits who cannot¬* learn to obtain Glory though Righteousness will eventually loose¬* some of their Glory. And if¬*you¬*become addicted to the use of Evil as¬* a "quick fix way" to gain Glory, you will eventually find¬* yourself trapped in a prison of your own making. This is not necessarily ¬*a permanent state, but it is a very difficult state from which to¬* free yourself. And, in fact you can not free your self from this¬* prison without the help of your Family/Soul-mate group. They will¬* never give up on you and will for eternity (if need be) try to help¬* you free your self from the prison you have built.¬* Your Glory can only be permanently increased through¬* synergy¬* with others, that is, through the true order of love. Where, not only¬* your Glory increases, but the Glory of those with whom you are synergistic¬* will also increase.
    Our¬* goal, from the time before we struck the spark to begin the universe,¬* is to strive for a continual increase in our Glory and the Glory¬* of others. As more and more of humanity begins to understand and¬* practice Righteousness a critical mass will be arrived at which¬* will lead to the Glorification of this existence into the next.¬*
    ¬*¬*¬* Jealousies is an Evil that will slow¬*yourspiritual progression and limit your Glory for not all¬* intelligences or spirits have the same amount of Glory. And one¬* should not try to compare what one perceives to be his level of¬* Glory to that of other spirits for there will always be those with¬* greater and lesser amounts of Glory. The important thing is that¬* your Glory can grow. You will grow at a rate that is best for you.¬* As you reach certain levels of Glory you will move from one level¬* of existence to a higher level. You started out as an intelligence,¬* advance through an increase in Glory to a spirit, then an embodied¬* spirit ( a mortal) then eventually to an immortal embodied spirit¬* or a God. This is where your spirit and the intelligences that¬* make up your physical body have fused or coalesced to become one¬* in form and one in purpose. This is where you as an immortal embodied¬* God can begin to create new intelligences that will begin their¬* journey to increase in Glory. But at all levels you will continue¬* to strive for an increase in Glory for ever and ever, this is the¬* plan of eternal progression.
    ¬*¬*¬* In¬* summary, mortal man has, throughout the history of human existence,¬* been unconsciously struggling to gain Glory, to learn to reject¬* Evil and embrace Righteousness through synergy. Thus increasing¬* the Glory of yourself and of those whom you have touched. Each of us comes¬* here on assignment, and as we gain a realization of our purpose¬* through the prompting's of our spirit group by way of prayer. We¬* begin to remember our birth purpose, the things we chose to accomplish¬* with our lives. Our challenge is to hold onto our purpose and through¬* synergy to raise the Glory of all humanity. From before recorded¬* history, religious scripture, poems, philosophies have pointed to¬* a latent desire within all of us to increase in Glory and to help¬* all mortals to do the same. Though the power of faith, positive¬* thinking and the power of prayer humanity is coming to the realization¬* the our exaltation is dependent on synergy with our fellow man and¬* with our spirit/family groups. If humanity will hold onto this common¬* world view, this synergy, the exaltation of this world to the next¬* level of existence shall be achieved.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    india
    Posts
    1
    poda punda


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    mocnarf's religion seems to have the similar flaws to those he rejects, only more so.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    The advantage of Islam and Christianity over mocnarf's religion is that the central tenets can be expressed in a handful of sentences. This at least means you don't fall asleep from boredom half way through.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    I'm sorry, I did about three paragraphs into his science fictional form of basic self idolatry. That is what it is called when you set yourself up as God and structure a religion to suit your own purposes. Oddly enough, he will never be able to live up to the strictures of his religion any more than the rest of us can live within the strictures of other religions. That is why there is a need for a savior and forgiveness.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    309
    hey daytonturner, i read your signature about god being the greatest scientist of all. he created science, so he is the best INVENTOR of all.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

    the road to succes is never paved or clearly marked
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    I have addressed this observation before: Are you implying that inventors are not scientists?
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I have addressed this observation before: Are you implying that inventors are not scientists?
    If he didn't imply this, he should have. Inventors do not need to be scientists at all! Anyone can be an inventor. Think of someone who is as different from a scientist as you can imagine. He can invent. How about a football player? A football player can invent a new play in football. OK, maybe he cannot patent it or sell it, but he could win a game with it. But there are plenty of inventors who can both patent and sell what they invent without being any kind of scientist. There are inventors of new games and inventors of business techniques, for example. Even restricting ourselves to the more traditional type of inventor, most of these are engineers not scientists.

    I agree with chamilton333. God is an inventor not a scientist, because scientist are stumbling around trying to figure out how, what God invented, works. Therefore, scientist are kind of like reverse engineers. God doesn't have to figure anything out, He already knows it all.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    Hi Mitchell. There is some merit to what you say, but I suspect even in the invention of a football play, there is science involved. If you are talking about an on-the-spot, during-the-game invention, the inventor must consider whether his team’s players can use their speed and strength to carry out his plan this bringing into play sciences which would relate to those things. If you are designing a play without specific players in mind you are still attempting to coordinate forces and timings which imply some scientific implications.

    I would not deny that it may be theoretically possible to invent something without any knowledge of any science. If you consider writing a song or composing music a process of invention, then I suppose those are not exactly scientific endeavors. (Thus I must assume our utterly and totally scientific friends here do not listen to music, look at art, watch plays or get involved in any of the arts.)

    If you were going to invent a universe from nothing, I should think you would need to understand science pretty good. And if science did not already exist, you would need to invent that. But how could you invent science without first being a scientist? Can one invent a mechanical device without some knowledge of mechanics? Or was the ‚Äúinvention‚ÄĚ of the lever based on a priori knowledge?

    And you are so correct that we, as humans, are stumbling around among the laws of the various sciences trying to figure them out and all the while figuring we are smarter than the One who invented them.

    I do not disagree that, as creator, God would have performed as an inventor, but He could hardly have done so without first being a scientist.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    I do not disagree that, as creator, God would have performed as an inventor, but He could hardly have done so without first being a scientist.
    Oh dear this arguement is a bit silly. But in your position you are buying into the modern treatment of the scientist as the ultimate priest of truth.

    Yes as creator God knows everything that any scientist could ever discover from examining what He created and infinitely more than this. But take it from an "almost scientist", scientists are not about knowing science, scientist are about discovering science. That is why I am really just a teacher and not a scientist at all (although I did have my day as a graduate student and made a few insignificant contributions). Therefore God cannot be a scientist but only a teacher of science, but in His case He is superior to all the scientists, because He is the teacher of the scientists, who are His students. To call God a scientist is to say that He is one of the students and this is simply not true.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Driving in my car
    Posts
    5,043
    I would not deny that it may be theoretically possible to invent something without any knowledge of any science.
    I've seen gulls that drop shellfish upon rocks to crack open a meal, and Chimpanzees that use a twig to flush out tasty termites, so would you consider them inventors?


    I guess we're going off topic. Sorry mocnarf, I also got bored a couple of paragraphs in. I know I've seen that thread somewhere else and unfortunately the same thing happened to me then. Nothing like short threads or posts.

    Personally I'm no expert but if I can give you some advice, make one good point and store all your other points so you can use them to support your idea later on in the discussion, if it happens. Prepare for a time(anticipate an expected counterpoint) when you can slip a zinger in there for the greatest impact.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I've seen gulls that drop shellfish upon rocks to crack open a meal, and Chimpanzees that use a twig to flush out tasty termites, so would you consider them inventors?
    Well, this is much more interesting than the original topic. [Should moderators encourage deviation from the thread topic? :? In exceptional circumstances, yes.]

    The gulls are not inventors. The habit of dropping shellfish is hardwired into the gull - it is an instinct. They do not actually drop them on rocks. They simply drop them. Since they live, traditionally, by the seaside there is a reasonable chance the shellfish will fall on rocks. However, I have often observed gulls dropping them repeatedly onto grass, with no awareness that it would never work.

    Chimpanzees, however, are inventors. The twig trick is to some extent a cultural artifact - it can be learned. However, what is learned is the concept, not the methodology. Some chimps will use a different technique from others, while some will duplicate the original methodolgy. Contrary to popular mythology (monkey see, monkey do) our primate cousins are actually more original, i.e. more inventive, when it comes to developint things. That, paradoxically, is why they are more backward.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    I would agree with Mitchell that there is a silliness factor in discussing whether God is a scientist or not.

    But it does beg the question as to what qualifies one as a scientist? What does one need to be doing to be considered a scientist?

    Invention takes place both within and without the scientific realm. Sometimes, invention is the result of accident. Sometimes it is the result of scientific application of various scientific principles.

    But, I should think the practical application of scientific principles by scientific people using a scientific method has produced a lot more inventions than accidents.

    As it might relate to whether God is a scientist or not, one would have to consider whether He invented scientific principles and applied them or if He said to Himself, ‚ÄúI wonder what would happen if I . . . Whoa, look at all that light!‚ÄĚ

    In the latter case, those who believe the universe is an accident, are correct.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14 God more than a scientist 
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    41
    I am new to this site and find the discussion interesting.

    God used science we understand, sciences like Chemistry, Physics, Mechanical, Biology and the like in His creation.

    But He also used things we do not understand. Supposedly, a boat the size of Noahs Ark built out of wood cannot be built, the stresses on the wood would cause it to break.

    Raising the dead is another example.

    Suppose you could say he used Super Science, things we do not now and probably never will know.
    Yujikid
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Grand Prairie, TX
    Posts
    2,377
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    However, what is learned is the concept, not the methodology. Some chimps will use a different technique from others, while some will duplicate the original methodolgy.
    Recent studies have noted that a chimps methodology is, indeed, learned for tasks such as termiting. There was a recent paper/article (the reference eludes me, but was brought up in a primate evolution class) that described the ability of researchers to identify a chimp's population by the way it used tools like twigs for termiting. Some learn to wet the twig, some learn to bring two twigs of differing sizes, etc.

    The methodologies do vary from population to population.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    From New Scientist April 1 2006 p42 ff. Just Like Your Mother Taught You.

    Chimps can imitate, but if they can work things out for themselves they will.

    It appears that instead of imitation - copying both the method and the outcome of a task - chimps often emulate: they attend more to the result of the behaviour they have been watching, then figure out their own way to achieve it.


    This is explored more fully here:

    Call, Carpenter and Tomasello Animal Cognition Volume 8, Number 3 July 2005 Copying results and copying actions in the process of social learning: chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and human children (Homo sapiens)
    Abstract There is currently much debate about the nature of social learning in chimpanzees. The main question is whether they can copy others actions, as opposed to reproducing the environmental effects of these actions using their own preexisting behavioral strategies. In the current study, chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and human children (Homo sapiens) were shown different demonstrations of how to open a tube‚ÄĒin both cases by a conspecific. In different experimental conditions, demonstrations consisted of (1) action only (the actions necessary to open the tube without actually opening it); (2) end state only (the open tube, without showing any actions); (3) both of these components (in a full demonstration); or (4) neither of these components (in a baseline condition). In the first three conditions subjects saw one of two different ways that the tube could open (break in middle; caps off ends). Subjects behavior in each condition was assessed for how often they opened the tube, how often they opened it in the same location as the demonstrator, and how often they copied the demonstrators actions or style of opening the tube. Whereas chimpanzees reproduced mainly the environmental results of the demonstrations (emulation), human children often reproduced the demonstrators actions (imitation). Because the procedure used was similar in many ways to the procedure that Meltzoff (Dev Psych 31:1, 1995) used to study the understanding of others unfulfilled intentions, the implications of these findings with regard to chimpanzees understanding of others intentions are also discussed.

    and here:

    Horner and Whitten Animal Cognition Volume 8, Number 3 July 2005 Causal knowledge and imitation/emulation switching in chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes) and children (Homo sapiens)

    Abstract This study explored whether the tendency of chimpanzees and children to use emulation or imitation to solve a tool-using task was a response to the availability of causal information. Young wild-born chimpanzees from an African sanctuary and 3- to 4-year-old children observed a human demonstrator use a tool to retrieve a reward from a puzzle-box. The demonstration involved both causally relevant and irrelevant actions, and the box was presented in each of two conditions: opaque and clear. In the opaque condition, causal information about the effect of the tool inside the box was not available, and hence it was impossible to differentiate between the relevant and irrelevant parts of the demonstration. However, in the clear condition causal information was available, and subjects could potentially determine which actions were necessary. When chimpanzees were presented with the opaque box, they reproduced both the relevant and irrelevant actions, thus imitating the overall structure of the task. When the box was presented in the clear condition they instead ignored the irrelevant actions in favour of a more efficient, emulative technique. These results suggest that emulation is the favoured strategy of chimpanzees when sufficient causal information is available. However, if such information is not available, chimpanzees are prone to employ a more comprehensive copy of an observed action. In contrast to the chimpanzees, children employed imitation to solve the task in both conditions, at the expense of efficiency. We suggest that the difference in performance of chimpanzees and children may be due to a greater susceptibility of children to cultural conventions, perhaps combined with a differential focus on the results, actions and goals of the demonstrator
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    As it might relate to whether God is a scientist or not, one would have to consider whether He invented scientific principles and applied them or if He said to Himself, ‚ÄúI wonder what would happen if I . . . Whoa, look at all that light!‚ÄĚ

    In the latter case, those who believe the universe is an accident, are correct.
    I predict that if those were the words in the Bible, not only would a lot more people read the book, but Christians would be a lot more fun.

    Is this just for the sake argument or do you consider this possibility seriously. An open theist might believe such a thing. Although this a bit more extreme version of open theism than I am willing to embrace.

    So what about it? Are you an open theist?
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    41
    Ophiolite Wrote:

    It appears that instead of imitation - copying both the method and the outcome of a task - chimps often emulate: they attend more to the result of the behaviour they have been watching, then figure out their own way to achieve it.
    I have a dog that showed up on my place one day. He had been mistreated and was cowed. It took a little while to get him to trust me, but now he and I are best friends.

    What is unusual about this dog is that he has set himself up as mother and protector of all the other domestic animals at my place. For example, when I start up my truck, he gets nervous and checks under my truck to see if any cats are asleep there. More than once he has quickly gone under my truck to remove a cat.

    Wonder how his actions would be interpreted in a social engineering experiment?
    Yujikid
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    Hi Mitchell. There is some merit to what you say, but I suspect even in the invention of a football play, there is science involved. If you are talking about an on-the-spot, during-the-game invention, the inventor must consider whether his team’s players can use their speed and strength to carry out his plan this bringing into play sciences which would relate to those things. If you are designing a play without specific players in mind you are still attempting to coordinate forces and timings which imply some scientific implications.
    yes, but you are not thinking about exacly why or what or how the timing or speed or strength works. scientists try to understand, inventors just accept and use.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

    the road to succes is never paved or clearly marked
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Beautiful Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts
    2,116
    I somehow was (again) not notified of posts to this topic and missed a lot of great posts.

    First: Mitchell, it was a rhetorical hypothesis. It does occur to me that nothing ever occurred to God. If I understand what you mean by open theist, I probably am not. I do not picture God mulling over information and then making an arbitrary decision or taking an arbitrary action.

    I was not exactly sure what the chimp talk was about but I do recall that when they were first experimenting with teaching chimpanzees sign language, they observed chimpanzee ability to develop untaught thots and to coin new words.

    One of the first chimps to receive sign language instruction was a female chimp named Washoe. One day she shoved her doll down into her cup and signed, "Washoe doll in cup," and laughed and laughed. I saw a show about this way back in the 1970's. It was fascinating to see another animal on this planet able to form a sentence to express a mentally developed thought. (Washoe, by the way, is still alive and lives at a chimpanzee refuge in the state of Washington.)

    In another study where several chimpanzees knew sign language and taught it to other chimpanzees, they coined their own word to for a duck, combining the signs for water and for bird.

    So, it seems obvious that the chimps were doing more than merely aping the signs. (OK, horrible pun, but good point, I think.)
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Strugle Town
    Posts
    222
    Ophiolite, you say: The gulls are not inventors. The habit of dropping shellfish is hardwired into the gull - it is an instinct.
    How does anything become an instinct ?
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •