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Thread: Seriously confused

  1. #1 Seriously confused 
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    ehmm.. hi... there are a couple of questions I would like to ask.. really.. thanks for bothering the read in advance.

    I had to take alook at all the parts on this interesting forum, and I was kinda surprised to actully see this section here.. so I`d just like to ask a couple of questions..

    _ Why there is a "religion concerned" section on THE SCIENCE FORUM ?

    _ Howcome it`s the most arguable section on the forum "topics: 920 Posts: 32339" and how can you explain these numbers noted ?

    _ Howcome every single subject "thread" attempt in this section eventually, usually finds its way to be the almost same copy-past argument "or fight" between person(s) who does "believe" in a god and another person(s) who does not "believe" in a god, that the argument turns from the main topics` discussion into the common dialogue of:

    Unbeliever: "there is no god, you cant prove it, no one has.. stop fooling yourself, you naive! I hate you! I hate you!..etc."
    Believer: "There is a god (God), I know it!, I dont have to prove it, no one can prove a supernatural you idiot!.. I hate you too! I hate you too!.. etc."

    _ Howcome this almost irrational baseless unscientific whatsoever behavior "see dialogue above" would be catagorized under the so called "scientific study of religion" under the "Social Sciences" forum part ?


    Im sorry if I framed one of my questions in a bit of a sarcastic way, but untill someone responds to these few questions, untill this moment.. it`s due to the first impression Ive got as a new member.. I think it`s hyporitical to put such a section in this specific forum on the admin`s part.. meaning I think the adempt here is not dicussing nor studying religion nor religious individuals in an "innocent scientific" way.. let`s just say everyone can see the bottom of it.. specially if you`ve been through this before..
    briefly science can not prove that a god exist nor do not exist, in the end it`s all theories and attempts and nothing has been proven for sure and I mean like the gravity law.. so the logical explanation in this section here I find to be much more childish than to be based on a scientific intentions.

    Fact is.. I found it much more than pathetically ludicrous.. to see that it`s the most popular section without a competition (based on posts enourmous numbers ofcourse) in the heart of a supposed Science forum!


    My last question here would be.. what is the lesson the posters here learned from all of these """scientific discussions""" they have had ?


    Most anxious for reply.. thank you.


    Ignorance is a bless...
    ... Im utterly cursed.
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  3. #2 Re: Seriously confused 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Why there is a "religion concerned" section on THE SCIENCE FORUM ?
    Why is there a pseudo-science section? Why is there a trash can? Why not? The point is discernment - and by holding to it, hopefully imparting it to others. Yes this is a science forum, BUT it is not the work of science itself, for that is found elsewhere. It is scientific discussion and perhaps the most important question of all that needs to be taught is, what is science? But answering that question to those who really haven't a clue will not be achieved by speaking in a language that is unintelligible to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome it`s the most arguable section on the forum "topics: 920 Posts: 32339" and how can you explain these numbers noted ?
    Nothing could be easier to explain. Science has a methodology for discovering the truth about the kind of questions which it addresses. But what methodology is there to answer relgious questions that is any different from the rhetoric of a used car salesmen? Thus in the science sections we usually have those with some education/understanding explaining what science has discovered to others. But what can we possibly have in the religion section but the endless rhetoric and controversy which is all that objective observer can find on religious topics?


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome every single subject "thread" attempt in this section eventually, usually finds its way to be the almost same copy-past argument "or fight" between person(s) who does "believe" in a god and another person(s) who does not "believe" in a god, that the argument turns from the main topics` discussion into the common dialogue of:

    Unbeliever: "there is no god, you cant prove it, no one has.. stop fooling yourself, you naive! I hate you! I hate you!..etc."
    Believer: "There is a god (God), I know it!, I dont have to prove it, no one can prove a supernatural you idiot!.. I hate you too! I hate you too!.. etc."
    You are too hasty. Yes this is the most common sort of thread. Though I think you have skewed this quite significantly because there is little tolerance here for the really hard-headed religious for these tend to be opposed to science. Thus it is more like this:
    Atheist with axe to grind: "Religion is a disease and should be eradicated."
    Those who disagree: Religious questions have to be a matter of choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome this almost irrational baseless unscientific whatsoever behavior "see dialogue above" would be catagorized under the so called "scientific study of religion" under the "Social Sciences" forum part ?
    Ah well as far as being under "Social Science" you do perhaps have a point. But if you read the guidelines for the section you will see that we do not pretend to restrict this section to purely the social science perspective. Though more threads of that type is certainly desireable.


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    Im sorry if I framed one of my questions in a bit of a sarcastic way, but untill someone responds to these few questions, untill this moment.. it`s due to the first impression Ive got as a new member.. I think it`s hyporitical to put such a section in this specific forum on the admin`s part.. meaning I think the adempt here is not dicussing nor studying religion nor religious individuals in an "innocent scientific" way.. let`s just say everyone can see the bottom of it.. specially if you`ve been through this before...
    Its not hypocritical it is a difficult and precarious solution to a very difficult problem designed by the consensus of people who have been here a very long time. There are indeed those who would have no such section at all. But there are others who see a value in this discussion about the role and value of religion.


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    briefly science can not prove that a god exist nor do not exist, in the end it`s all theories and attempts and nothing has been proven for sure and I mean like the gravity law.. so the logical explanation in this section here I find to be much more childish than to be based on a scientific intentions.
    Well the question of the existence of God is only one question which is discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    Fact is.. I found it much more than pathetically ludicrous.. to see that it`s the most popular section without a competition (based on posts enourmous numbers ofcourse) in the heart of a supposed Science forum!
    I do not. People are free to choose. What difference would it really make to remove this choice? What would it really prove?


    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    My last question here would be.. what is the lesson the posters here learned from all of these """scientific discussions""" they have had ?
    Well the lesson to learn from the type of discussion that you seem to have boiled it all down to is that such discussions are pointless. If you learn that lesson then perhaps you can look for those threads and posts that don't bother with those type of exchanges.


    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  4. #3  
    Forum Senior PhoenixG's Avatar
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    Hello,

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Why there is a "religion concerned" section on THE SCIENCE FORUM?
    I wonder the exact same thing. I think it's an unfortunate reality that these topics are inexorably bound together, whether we like it or not. Both religion and science seek to explain our natural world. Since they have different methodologies and frequently offer contradictory arguments, I don't see anyway around this.

    So much for Gould's "non-overlapping magisteria"

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome it`s the most arguable section on the forum "topics: 920 Posts: 32339" and how can you explain these numbers noted ?
    See above

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome every single subject "thread" attempt in this section eventually, usually finds its way to be the almost same copy-past argument "or fight" between person(s) who does "believe" in a god and another person(s) who does not "believe" in a god, that the argument turns from the main topics` discussion into the common dialogue of:

    <snip>
    Because both sides refuse to budge.

    Speaking in generalities, non-believers are only persuaded by evidence (for which there is none) and believers exist within a system which rewards them for maintaining belief regardless of what the evidence shows.

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Howcome this almost irrational baseless unscientific whatsoever behavior "see dialogue above" would be catagorized under the so called "scientific study of religion" under the "Social Sciences" forum part ?
    Indeed your gross generalization would appear to be quite irrational wouldn't it? I suppose that not all the dialog here fits the charactures provided above

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    I think it`s hyporitical to put such a section in this specific forum on the admin`s part.. meaning I think the adempt here is not dicussing nor studying religion nor religious individuals in an "innocent scientific" way.. let`s just say everyone can see the bottom of it.. specially if you`ve been through this before..
    I suppose that if the posting guidelines were enforced, things might be different. Thus far it appears that the sticky at the top of the page is only there for decoration.

    Of course, since the moderator is the top offender with regards to at least of couple of them, I can see why one would want to avoid having to even put on a show of enforcing them.

    My 2 cents.

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    Fact is.. I found it much more than pathetically ludicrous.. to see that it`s the most popular section without a competition (based on posts enourmous numbers ofcourse) in the heart of a supposed Science forum!
    Welcome to America!

    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    My last question here would be.. what is the lesson the posters here learned from all of these """scientific discussions""" they have had ?
    I've only been posting here a short time, but I will tell you that after years of participating in discussions like these in other forums, such dialogs do have benefit.

    First off, I learn a whole lot. 15 years ago I probably didn't know the first thing about logical fallacies or textual criticism. I knew far less about the theory of evolution, cosmology, comparative religion, etc. If nothing else, I have personally benefited tremendously from these discussions.

    Second, speaking out can sometimes inspire others to come out from their shells as well. This is especially true when it comes to those that have recently deconverted and might need some help re-orienting. It is also beneficial those non-believers who can't find support outside of the internet.

    Third, even if people don't come around to your point of view, you can occasionally inspire them to think more critically or at least wake them up to what's going on around them, in regards to the "culture war".

    Lastly, every once in a blue moon, someone becomes convinced to look honestly at the arguments from both sides, does so, and realizes that they can no longer maintain their faith.

    I hope that I've been able to help answer your questions.
    "PhoenixG makes me puke that why I quoted him." - esbo
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  5. #4 Re: Seriously confused 
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moody
    _ Why there is a "religion concerned" section on THE SCIENCE FORUM ?
    So that we have a direction to point the lunies in when they post in the biology section - duh
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  6. #5 Re: Seriously confused 
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    Quote Originally Posted by moody

    _ Why there is a "religion concerned" section on THE SCIENCE FORUM ?
    Religion can be deconstructed like any other phenomenon, and scrutinized from a scientific perspective. And, since so many different cults with varying ideologies exist, we must work within the guidelines of theists claims, as opposed to just arguing over whether or not a particular god exists or not. Those claims, of course, cannot really be tested if the claims are for the supernatural. And, of course, who really cares whether gods exist or not? No evidence has ever come to light that would demonstrate they have any affect whatsoever.

    So, what should really be scrutinized is not the claims themselves, but the actual machine that drives religions; indoctrination. Here is where science can step in and demonstrate that cults are little more than that which has been force-fed into people at childhood, and nothing more.

    Break the cycle of indoctrination and cults will fall.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
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  7. #6  
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    Thank you for the feedback everyone, kindly appreciate it.

    who really cares whether gods exist or not?
    That`s kinda contradictory with the existence of this section in this specific forum

    No evidence has ever come to light that would demonstrate they have any affect whatsoever.
    Yes exactly.
    However, for some specific individuals, that only proves how superior this god really is! that we are living in a limited closed world that is like a box.

    Considering this line in a more open minded way, makes you realize that everything inside "this box" makes it so perfect that prevents from considering wether there is something beyond that box or not, we are actully so content with what we`ve reached so far regarding science progress, maybe so much content that we are paying somekind of a price which is ignoring or barely seeing another aspects of the issue.. sometimes justifying this natural behavior for the reason that there is not much evidence (which based on the scientific history; this is heavily considered as a "temporary state", which something you cant easily ignore), and sometimes justifying by the reason that religions looks "indoctrination".. or that religious people are look like ignornat blind naive herb.. those kind of shallow reviews for different persons sometimes could cause of sweeping them away from the point of getting a fairly close look at the big picture.

    The idea and its inversion.. of having an evidence for the existing of a supernatural, is so linked to the behavior of "belief" and science all togther, not one by itself.. and since this kind of relation can hardly exist.. mabe this section of forum here will not find any answer evenif they kept posting more millions of posts.. the outcome will be a typical of what Ive explained before, not more than a street fight between 2 indiviuals who disagree on anything whatsoever.

    In the end the matter of belief or disbelief is heavily linked to the outcome of the personal experiance, put the "scientific logic" or the "pure spiritualness" all aside, personal experiance has the upper hand in affecting choices, behaviors and judments of any rational human alive.. it decides eventually wether you`ll take only pure "science" as your ultimate guide, or will involve your "consciences" or your "belief" to determine.. or maybe some this and some of that.

    Maybe no one would realize the truth (if there is any) untill he gets his ass out of his "box" maybe, which something will never happen, because everyone seemed to love his "box".. that the question of wether this is the ultimate truth or even close to the truth doesnt really matter.

    This section is like a boxing match between Ali and Tyson taking place in a football field!! , the first boxer has belief and cleverness, the other has roughness, knowldge and hands of steal, despite that fact that the second might sounds much stronger, but fact is Ali managed to be the world`s greatest despite his major weakness.. so far Ali is winning.
    On the other hand Tyson is justifing his loses in hidden internet forums by criticising the opponent`s method!, he is not even trying to improve his to make it more convincing and actylly to start winning! despite the fact that Tyson`s method is ONLY relying on providing evidences to convince individuals.. if you ask me Tyson is not doing quite very well so far.. however, only time "and nothing else" will prove if he`ll manage to knock down Ali for good, cause If Alis went "hard" down.. he wont manage to get up again... unless Tyson wasnt so convincing after all.


    Despite not feeling ok with this section here, but gotta admitt I enjoy reading some posts around the other threads.. still not so eager to discuss anyone about his thoughs and personal beliefs, Im not into getting into these kind of closed cyrcles arguments.
    Ignorance is a bless...
    ... Im utterly cursed.
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