Notices
Results 1 to 18 of 18

Thread: sin

  1. #1 sin 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    927
    i was pondering on whether animals would go to hell lately.
    they're all non-believers, and therefore, sinners.
    however, they never ate from the tree of knowledge. so i suppose that means, whatever they do, its never a sin. they could be abysmal sinners, and they'd still all go to heaven.
    so if you don't know about sin, you will automatically go to heaven, no matter how much you sin.
    but since humanity was cursed because of the tree of knowledge thing, everyone is automatically a sinner until they're baptised, or accept jesus.
    so unbaptized babies go to hell if they die. because humanity is cursed.
    you know.. that actually makes me feel bad for the most ferocious bible-bashers.
    they must cry themselves to sleep every night, thinking about the billions of people who will go to hell because they never heard about the word of jesus christ.


    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: sin 
    Forum Senior PhoenixG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    336
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    so if you don't know about sin, you will automatically go to heaven, no matter how much you sin.
    Kinda takes the fun out of it for the people who bent over backwards to please their sky-daddy, doesn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    but since humanity was cursed because of the tree of knowledge thing, everyone is automatically a sinner until they're baptised, or accept jesus.
    And for those that lived and died in the 194,000 years before the abrahamic religions were even invented (sorry, I mean "revealed")?

    Or those that lived and died in the 196,000 years before jesus was (allegedly) crucified and resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    so unbaptized babies go to hell if they die. because humanity is cursed.
    I'm born a sinner and if I die before I'm baptized (hopefully I'm born in a country with a good health system and a low infant mortality rate), then...I go to hell (because I'm a sinner) or heaven (because I didn't know that I was a sinner, per your "animal" argument)? But not only that, I also have to know about jesus too? So if I die before I accept jesus (guess I better hope that my parents indoctrinate me pretty quickly and never allow me to, ya know, ask questions or think for myself, etc) I face the same conundrum?

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    you know.. that actually makes me feel bad for the most ferocious bible-bashers.
    they must cry themselves to sleep every night, thinking about the billions of people who will go to hell because they never heard about the word of jesus christ.
    I suppose it's better to cry yourself to sleep with empathy than with fear after realizing (on some level) that this god dude is a total ass like that.


    "PhoenixG makes me puke that why I quoted him." - esbo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: sin 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    the billions of people who will go to hell because they never heard about the word of jesus christ.
    Gnosticism: saved by a secret knowledge.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,702
    Gnosticism is a pegan branch of christianity isn't it?

    Some sort of hermetic(Greek and Egyptian) Christianity, I thought.

    Nonetheless, please cite the scriptures that have led you to believe that "Not believing in God is sin" "Animals have souls" and "Sin is punishable by hell"
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    Gnosticism historically was a branch of Christianity that arose alongside what we would describe today as mainstream Christianity. Gnosticism had varying beliefs region to region, but ultimately believed that there were two divine figures, a good God who created the spiritual reality, and an evil God, seeking to emulate and pervert, who created the material world. In gnosticism Jesus was also seen as the Son of God made flesh who had been born into our evil world to help lead men back to the true reality, the spiritual reality. Historically, gnosticism was heavily influenced by Persian Zoroastrianism and Greek philosophy (I think platonic) and was prevalent through the Roman Empire's eastern provinces during the Classical era and in Bulgaria, Serbia, Bohemia, and southern France during the Middle ages, respectively in the forms of the Bogomils, Hussites, and Cathars.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,702
    Interesting. So I probably confused persian influences with egyptian influences.

    But for some reason I thought they worshiped Elohim and cerabim(probably spelled wrong) just as Hindu's worship demi-Gods.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Senior PhoenixG's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    336
    Bart Ehrman discusses gnosticism at length in his book The Lost Gospel of Judas Iscariot: A New Look at Betrayer and Betrayed. If anyone is looking for a primer as well as some interesting christian history, I highly recommend it.
    "PhoenixG makes me puke that why I quoted him." - esbo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    131
    The bulk of 'mainstream' Christianity is Catholicism and it has never taught that the non-baptized got to Hell. Born Agains and their ilk are a fraction of Christianity.

    When I was a tyke and still believed in Elves, Jesus, Vampires and other assorted fantasy characters, we were taught that the unbaptized went to 'Limbo' The other 3 destinations were a direct ticket to Heaven (what a saint did), a direct ticket to Hell if you died with Mortal sin on your sould since your last confession....the majority, however, would end up doing time in 'Purgatory'...sort of a half way home for those who did such dastardly deeds as look at naked pictures, chewed gum in Church and uttered the odd expletive.

    Limbo was 'sort of in Limbo'. Probably jammed pack with a few billion Chinese, Indians, Pakistanis and so on. Unborn babies also were in Limbo 'just hanging out'. One day you are a sperm swimming around and the next day 'bang' shot out the peni$ rught into Limbo.....every sperm is sacred.

    Last year the Pope finally declared Limbo closed...a bit like Obama closing Gitmo. there is still debate as to where the gazillions of souls in Limbo ended up....or if they were never there in the first place then where are they?...no freedom of information act.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9 Re: sin 
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    i was pondering on whether animals would go to hell lately.
    they're all non-believers, and therefore, sinners.
    however, they never ate from the tree of knowledge. so i suppose that means, whatever they do, its never a sin. they could be abysmal sinners, and they'd still all go to heaven.
    so if you don't know about sin, you will automatically go to heaven, no matter how much you sin.
    but since humanity was cursed because of the tree of knowledge thing, everyone is automatically a sinner until they're baptised, or accept jesus.
    so unbaptized babies go to hell if they die. because humanity is cursed.
    you know.. that actually makes me feel bad for the most ferocious bible-bashers.
    they must cry themselves to sleep every night, thinking about the billions of people who will go to hell because they never heard about the word of jesus christ.
    This is a 'stupid' promotion by the OT because of a people that have adopted the Chauvinist lion as the supreme being(?) as a killer deity.

    The use of fruit as a source for 'sin' is an INSULT to the Apes that are Vegans that live off these foods.

    So its a sin to eat your fruits and vegetables and manly to eat meat. Ha ha.

    Tell that to an elaphant. If he sees a lion loafing in a tree branch, he shakes the tree till the lion falls to the ground and crawls away . Ha ha.

    This may seem a bit off topic but this is the general psychology in our US culture.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Gnosticism historically was a branch of Christianity that arose alongside what we would describe today as mainstream Christianity.
    There are two major viewpoints. There is the Christian view point that this was one of the first heresies to confront the Christian church after the time of Paul and the apostles. But even in this view we can say that it was in actuality a label pasted on quite a variety of beliefs and groups, but being Gnostic was a reason given that some of the documents like the gospel of Thomas was rejected from the Biblical canon.

    The non-christian academic view is more that Gnosticism represents the whole syncretistic religious phenomenon going on at the time where the religious ideas of three continents were mixed and brewed together to form new religions and Christianity is the one that, by whatever means, eventually came out on top.


    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Gnosticism had varying beliefs region to region, but ultimately believed that there were two divine figures, a good God who created the spiritual reality, and an evil God, seeking to emulate and pervert, who created the material world.

    Historically, gnosticism was heavily influenced by Persian Zoroastrianism and Greek philosophy (I think platonic)
    Zoastrianism has this idea of two equal gods/principles of good/light/order and evil/darkness/chaos at war with each other and the earth being the battle ground. You can see this idea and theme adopted into many relgions and certainly into many stories and films.

    The Platonic influence is more complex. Here the basic dualism is more of one between the pure world of ideas/mind/spirit and the corrupt world of creatures/body/matter. But there arose a mythology based on a philosophy of monism, whereby an original god/principle emanated divine manifestations called archons which in turn emanated demigod including one called the demiurge who created the world of matter thereby trapping pieces of the divine spirit in a prison of material form.

    The Gnostics naturally found it easy to associate the Demi-urge of this mythology with the God of the Old Testament.


    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    In gnosticism Jesus was also seen as the Son of God made flesh who had been born into our evil world to help lead men back to the true reality, the spiritual reality.
    Yes the focus was on what Jesus taught and the effort to impart knowledge that would liberate us from the darkness of ignorance and the limitations of material existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    prevalent through the Roman Empire's eastern provinces during the Classical era and in Bulgaria, Serbia, Bohemia, and southern France during the Middle ages, respectively in the forms of the Bogomils, Hussites, and Cathars.
    I am quite surprised and disappointed at the inclusion of the Hussites here though perhaps this is just a matter of confusing (intentional or otherwise) the Cathars with the followers John Huss who represent an early anabaptist protestant reform movement attacked by a Catholic Crusade in one of the darker eras of the Catholic church. Perhaps it is understandable why these rejected Catholicism quite violently but I do not find them particularly inspired in this respect.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    The reason I included the Hussites with was because there is a historical view that after the bogomils were heavily persecuted by Emperor Alexius I, they slowly moved up through the Balkans, away from Byzantium. A group settled in Serbia and I do believe there was a gnostic movement in Serbia during this time while other components are believed to have been a significant factor in the creation of the Hussite movement in Bohemia. The Cathars, like the Bogomils, were never really destroyed, just their political power structures. The Albigensian Crusade merely toppled the Cathar power structure in Southern France without destroying the movement, which later spread throughout France, Italy, and Germany.

    My experiences with the Hussites are more about how they defeated the various Catholic Crusading armies sent against them rather than their theology. Incidently, the Hussites wupped some major Holy Roman ass.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12 Re: sin 
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    i was pondering on whether animals would go to hell lately.
    they're all non-believers, and therefore, sinners.
    however, they never ate from the tree of knowledge. so i suppose that means, whatever they do, its never a sin. they could be abysmal sinners, and they'd still all go to heaven.
    so if you don't know about sin, you will automatically go to heaven, no matter how much you sin.
    but since humanity was cursed because of the tree of knowledge thing, everyone is automatically a sinner until they're baptised, or accept jesus.
    so unbaptized babies go to hell if they die. because humanity is cursed.
    you know.. that actually makes me feel bad for the most ferocious bible-bashers.
    they must cry themselves to sleep every night, thinking about the billions of people who will go to hell because they never heard about the word of jesus christ.
    (contemporary) chrstianity has numerous problems in determining how animals fit into the picture of having a soul (which then plays a part in determining heaven/hell and so many other things).

    Before discussing whether animals are capable of sin, it might be more valid to examine the implications of eating them (which would make a meat eater, by definition, guilty of disobeying "thou shall not kill)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    266
    sining is not an offense against god, in the hebrew it merely means "to miss the mark" in other words to disapoint. In this light it is easy to see why sins are so easily forgiven in Christianity. Concerning animals i believe they would also be covered under the the same age of responsibility privledges given to children in the O.T.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14 Sin is Good. 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    2 Peter 3:9 KJ
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    You will note that it is God's will that none be lost.
    If His will is supreme and scripture says that it is then all of us are saved.

    God wants man to repent.
    For us to repent, we must sin.
    God makes sure that we do so by giving us all a sinning nature.
    So to be saved, all we need do is follow our God given natures, sin and repent. In that order.

    God is good.

    So is sin.

    In fact, sin is as perfect as all of God's works.

    Deuteronomy 32:4
    He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    Enjoy your free will and sins knowing that God has made sure that we all get to heaven. In this we have no choice because nothing can thwart God's will. No man or beast.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    266
    was that an attempt at a response?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by ishmaelblues
    was that an attempt at a response?
    It sure beats animals being able to be evil after they reach an age of responsibility.

    To do evil one must know that they are doing evil. if you believe that animals can know they are doing evil then you are an idiot.

    You may want to look up the word mens rea.

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mens%20rea

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    266
    animals reaching the age of responsibility? wtf are you talking about, i never said i believe anything like that, in fact i said the opposite someone asked about animals in hell and i mentioned that a Rabbi might bring up the age of responsibility in the ot, implying that like children, animals might not be held accountable for their sins.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    1,114
    I consider sin to be a 'perversion' of nature.

    So my advice to all human males, is to avoid sin by using a 'vagina' when you masterbate. Ha ha.

    This is the GOSPEL of Nature. AMEN.

    Cosmo
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •