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View Poll Results: What are your beliefs about destiny?

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  • It is just an idea with no basis in reality

    10 58.82%
  • Some people have destinies

    3 17.65%
  • We all are destined to do something, but are largely free

    2 11.76%
  • We are all primarily destined, but are free to decide some things

    0 0%
  • everything is predestined

    1 5.88%
  • I don't know

    1 5.88%
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Thread: Concept of Destiny

  1. #1 Concept of Destiny 
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    (This isn't really scientific, but I'm mostly looking for the opinion of religious believers, and/or scholars, so feel free to send this somewhere(preferably philosophy) else if it doesn't fit the rules, but please let it remain for a few days.)

    I was improvising poetry and came up with this saying, it's in my signature. It is most likely in reference to my convictions about the soul, and the more I think of it the more it makes sense, not my ideas about the soul mind you, the soul doesn't make sense, but my ideas about destiny which makes almost complete sense, but for some reason almost unanimously it seems we agree is wrong.

    These are my beliefs about the concept of the Immortal Soul, and why such a concept would find it's way into our brains, as a product of evolution.

    There are a finite number of things you can focus on, and thus experience on a conscious level, and our experiences can be defined fairly as one of the major variables that make us who we are.

    According to evolution we are only aware of the things that we need to be aware of in order to promote the survival of your genes. Beyond this, there are only "accidents" which may very well be determinable. I don't know enough of the theory to say one way or the other with any confidence, but if I had to guess I would assume everything can be determined mathematically, if we know all the variables, and ultimately, all the variables are THERE, somewhere.

    Now, notice that none of this says anything like- A: We are all aware of the same things; or B: The variables are fixed.

    So to sum it up psudo-empiricaly

    (als= At least somewhat)

    A1: the abilities through which we experience existence are als determinable.

    A2: So our experiences are also als determinable.

    B1: Our experiences make us als who we are

    B2: So who we are is als somewhat determinable.

    The small unknowable is free will, which we for the most part, agree exists, for no reason other than because it's als "bloody obvious."

    And this als predetermined self that we call "I" is what shapes our future als, yet we call it free choice. I think it's predestined als that we call it free choice, just as it's predestined als that we seek the truth, just as it's predestined als that we are aware of such abstract concepts and objective thinking to begin with.

    Objective thinking skills are obviously useful. They are made better by our imagination, judgment and memory, and such things are made better by living better, which we learn to do by using our objective thinking skills. The only variable are in circumstance, and the accidental discoveries like science, inventions and discoveries. But our willingness to try new things and ask questions is als predetermined, and what we will be willing to try, what we won't, is also als predetermined.

    So I, als, believe in destiny.


    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Some people have destinies because these people are chosen by various persons. But not all that are chosen, themselves choose to accept their calling and fulfill that destiny. A father may choose a son to follow in his footsteps. A teacher may choose a student of promise with whom to share his own vision. A businessman may choose a successor with whom to share his secrets of success. A group may choose someone to lead them and a party may choose candidate to represent them. And so it should be no surprise that those who believe that there is a God, believe that He also chooses people, and thus according to them, these people have the most important destinies of all - to bring new life to mankind.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    According to evolution we are only aware of the things that we need to be aware of in order to promote the survival of your genes. Beyond this, there are only "accidents" which may very well be determinable. I don't know enough of the theory to say one way or the other with any confidence, but if I had to guess I would assume everything can be determined mathematically, if we know all the variables, and ultimately, all the variables are THERE, somewhere.
    This is only one side of the story - the objective view. But I certainly don't think life is objective, it is a very subjective assertion and imposition of the organism on the world. Belief is just a word for the specific case of mental life for that which all living things must have - a sense of identity - an organizing principle - a drive to and exist as a living thing rather than just as the raw materials of the environment. And thus it is that all these forms of belief create the reality of what living things become. Just observing life and trying to be realistic is death. If you want to be alive then you have to dream.

    Sometimes others have dreams for you. Sometimes others can see potential in you which you cannot. In the case of parents, teachers, mentors and others, what they see may be wrong. Sometimes they are right about that potential they see but are so manipulative or exploitive, that it is unlikely that they have the best interest of the person they choose, in their hearts. But if there is a God, then I think the potential He sees in those whom He has chosen is really there, and I believe that He also only chooses for our own best interest, and not only that but often for the best interest of mankind as a whole.


    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  4. #3  
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    Destiny? What is Destiny? If you are thinking what I am thinking, then it is the idea that if someone has it, then the events of their lives are foretold (at least the ones they are destined to do). I am a firm coherent to the ideal of chaos, randomness, and general entropy. Destiny breaks the very foundation of my 'belief' system, because it says that there is some element of the future foretold to be true, that will, invariably, happen. I guess, you could say, I'm in strict denial of Destiny and Predetermination. :wink:
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  5. #4  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    MM, your concept of destiny is much more vague than my own. I am specifically refering to something predestined to occur, something you have no choice in. Not something offered by others that must be accepted, but something you have, for one reason or another, that you have no choice but to fulfill. Whether anyone is or will ever be conscious of it I won't begin to wonder.

    Also, you don't think that subjective/existential "necessities" can be accounted for objectively? Not even in part? Then how do you think psychologists, religious and political leaders have become successful?


    "I am a firm coherent to the ideal of chaos, randomness, and general entropy."

    Do you know much about chaos theory? You are a mathematician so I assume you do. What do you think about the concept of subtle patterns in a seeming chaotic system. Also, randomness is quite simply, that which fits no known pattern, and says nothing against destiny, because randomness is defined by the person unaware of the pattern, until the pattern is revealed. And entropy works in a somewhat predictable fashion. Carbon dating, for example, fermentation for another. Just because we don't know the rules, doesn't mean there aren't any.

    Science rests on the fact that things are relatively predictable, I will go so far as to assume that religious devotion and objectivity are on opposite ends of a spectrum of human experience. When life is chaotic people flock to religion, and when life is more predictable people flock to science.

    I just don't can't see that material things are for the most part predictable and life is for some reason random. There seems to some unknown variable, quite possibly something only observable subjectively and not objectively. But just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean we cannot learn more about it, and in learning, come closer to understanding it as well as other things we never dreamed of understanding.

    Assuming there is no destiny seems less productive than assuming there is. I am very sympathetic to the self help attitude that "I am in control of my life, I choose, I decide, what is right for me" as well as the principle "I am what I am" but I think it is purely empowering, but otherwise useless, and at best a half truth.

    Useless because If I am mostly predestined, but have the slightest bit of free will, I would rather know what little I have control over and maximize it, than assume I have control over all of it, and then waste what little I actually do have control over.

    A half truth because even if we are free all the time, by assuming nothing influences us, and not desiring to understand what does, limits our individuality. If we are free all the time, and I go ob believing we are not, this does not mean I am a slave to what I believe controls me, because I do not believe I am aware of what controls me. I will hopefully learn techniques to rise above influence, and maximize what little control I have over myself, my life, but my destiny, is something I have no control over, I'm not even aware of it.

    So, in admitting that I do not know, I, for the sake of usefulness choose destiny over free will, and in no way think that hinders my free will, if I am wrong.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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  6. #5  
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    I suppose that is a way to look at life, that would be rather hard for me to swallow. Yes, we are predictable, and yes, events are predicted with relative accuracy and follow 'pretty' patterns. Every now and again we get things wrong. I think, the best way to show this, is that instead of being absolutely predictable (destiny) it is only LIKELY predictable (complete freedom). I dislike absolutes. If everything is predetermined, or even just partially predetermined, than no one has true freedom to do what they will, because someone could then make a decision that would, invariably, break the destiny that they had. HOWEVER, I feel that the prediction of events (say, though modern science/string theory) is, to within a tiny degree of error, possible. It's the destinction that it was determined to be, rather than t just happened to happen exactly as I thought it would. Equal outcomes, regardless of whatever we think, and I wonder if my view is just weird, or is something someone else shares with me. I hope the latter.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  7. #6  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    " If everything is predetermined, or even just partially predetermined, than no one has true freedom to do what they will, because someone could then make a decision that would, invariably, break the destiny that they had."

    In theory.

    That is why I don't believe in "free choice" exactly, but "limited choice"

    If your destiny is something like "you will have a heavy heart beat every 13 minutes" this is not implying that you won't have heart beats in between these destined heart beats, but you might be slightly different because of it than someone who has the destiny "you will take a deep breath every 13 hours and 6 minutes"

    If your destiny is more effectual like "you will be struck by lightning" this in no way is preventable

    If your destined to think certain things at certain times, this might also not be preventable.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    MM, your concept of destiny is much more vague than my own. I am specifically refering to something predestined to occur, something you have no choice in. Not something offered by others that must be accepted, but something you have, for one reason or another, that you have no choice but to fulfill. Whether anyone is or will ever be conscious of it I won't begin to wonder.
    There is a degree to which belief creates reality - the reality of ourselves. If we believe that we have no choice then, ta dah, we have no choice. If we believe that we are food for a tiger then we lie down and let the tiger eat us and, ta dah, we are food for a tiger. A great deal of life is like this. Thus it is impossible for me to argue that YOU have free will. Perhaps you do not, and perhaps your belief makes it so. But then I then I would say that by your belief you make your own choice, and I counter with this simple fact, that I can choose differently.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Also, you don't think that subjective/existential "necessities" can be accounted for objectively? Not even in part?
    No I do not


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Then how do you think psychologists, religious and political leaders have become successful?
    I explained that already. Remember my talk about how physics shows us how a deterministic system is created from a fundamentally indeterminstic one when you are dealing with large numbers? Consider how scientific studies are done in such fields? Just how solid is the evidence which these sciences are based on? What can they do besides statistics? Also consider how soft these sciences are. These are sciences where Kuhn's theory of scientific revolutions is quite applicable.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    "I am a firm coherent to the ideal of chaos, randomness, and general entropy."

    Do you know much about chaos theory? You are a mathematician so I assume you do.
    I am a theoretical physicist by training in graduate school and got my undergraduate degree in mathematics and yes I have studied chaotic dynamics. But it is the math and science I am interested in. I don't know much about this popularized/philosophy/religion version of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    What do you think about the concept of subtle patterns in a seeming chaotic system. Also, randomness is quite simply, that which fits no known pattern, and says nothing against destiny, because randomness is defined by the person unaware of the pattern, until the pattern is revealed.
    Seeing subtle patterns in phenomena that objective scientific studies only see as chaotic and random is one of the hallmarks of religion. The scientific study of chaotic systems reveals something quite different, which I can explain if you are interested.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    And entropy works in a somewhat predictable fashion. Carbon dating, for example, fermentation for another. Just because we don't know the rules, doesn't mean there aren't any.
    Yes entropy is a consequence of facts about counting and probability in systems with large numbers. Have no idea what you are refering to in the cases of carbon dating and fermentation.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Just because we don't know the rules, doesn't mean there aren't any.
    And just because there are rules doesn't mean that the rules are absolute or deterministic in every respect.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Science rests on the fact that things are relatively predictable, I will go so far as to assume that religious devotion and objectivity are on opposite ends of a spectrum of human experience. When life is chaotic people flock to religion, and when life is more predictable people flock to science.
    OK......?

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I just don't can't see that material things are for the most part predictable and life is for some reason random. There seems to some unknown variable, quite possibly something only observable subjectively and not objectively. But just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean we cannot learn more about it, and in learning, come closer to understanding it as well as other things we never dreamed of understanding.
    One of the things that we do learn from chaotic dynamics is this fact proven by Ilya Prigogine: that in order to predict the behavior of a chaotic system you may have to know the initial conditions to an infinite degree of precision. One of the fact that we know from quantum physics, proven by John Stewart Bell, is that there are events whose outcome is not determined by any hidden varibles within the accepted scientific world view. Put these two together and the result is that in nonlinear systems in far from equillibrium conditions where you have self-organizing phenomena such as life, there simply is no closure of physical causality.

    Now that certainly leaves you free to believe that life is still deterministic in some manner, but it also leaves me free to believe otherwise. But it is my conclusion that such beliefs create the reality about which they are concerned.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Assuming there is no destiny seems less productive than assuming there is. I am very sympathetic to the self help attitude that "I am in control of my life, I choose, I decide, what is right for me" as well as the principle "I am what I am" but I think it is purely empowering, but otherwise useless, and at best a half truth.
    Control is a delusion which I have no use for, and this "I am what I am" stuff is for those trying to observe their way through life. If imagining that you are a character in a novel that is already written somehow works for you then it is not for me to disapprove, but only to say that it is not for me. I can imagine that there is a measure of peace in the idea that someone else will make sure that you are in a good story with a happy ending. I can see how this gives one a sense of meaning, purpose and identity. But although you may find it incomprensible, there is another way.

    You see, for me what you describe is not what I would call life, because for me life is the responsibility that is found in an act of self-creation, one in which I feel the help of God is indispensible. For me the peace of certainty and guarantees is the peace of the grave and that does not interest me. Thus it is not comfortable security which I see being offered by God but adventure, excitement, challenges, passion, creativity, love, wonder, learning and growth - these are the stuff that life - eternal life - is made of. For me, faith is not the promise of certainty (which I can only believe is pretense) but the will to embrace uncertainty.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Useless because If I am mostly predestined, but have the slightest bit of free will, I would rather know what little I have control over and maximize it, than assume I have control over all of it, and then waste what little I actually do have control over.
    I am sorry, forgive me, but this sounds to me like someone who only wants a taste - someone who wants to stick toe in and be satisfied that they have measured the temperature of the water. Why does it sound like this to me? Because as I said before, belief creates the reality of yourself, and if you belief that little in life is up to you, then I cannot see how it could ever be otherwise. It is not about control. It is about taking chances and taking responsibility. But, no worries. We do not all have to be the same. God really did make us all different. But you should be aware that some people approach life quite differently - jumping in head first, so to speak.

    You remind be of this story about an airplane with two pilots, where one was western and the other a muslim. Something went wrong and the plane was going down. The westerner was desperately trying to find the problem and fix it before it was to late but the muslim calmly waited doing nothing. Later when the westerner asked the muslim why, he replied that if they were going to die then it was Allah's will.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    A half truth because even if we are free all the time, by assuming nothing influences us, and not desiring to understand what does, limits our individuality. If we are free all the time, and I go ob believing we are not, this does not mean I am a slave to what I believe controls me, because I do not believe I am aware of what controls me. I will hopefully learn techniques to rise above influence, and maximize what little control I have over myself, my life, but my destiny, is something I have no control over, I'm not even aware of it.
    We are free to choose how to respond to all the events and influences that come at us. That is the nature of life. Life is in the responses to the environment. Life is NOT a control over the environment. Life exists in the balance between the two extremes of insensitivity to the environment and being dominated by the environment. But in that balance between the two there is a kind of nonlinear realm where it can find an unlimited increase in both sensitivity to the environment and independence from the environment simultaneously. Living things do this through the process of self-organization by which it creates its own internal world apart from the environment.

    So free will has nothing to do with how you wish life would treat you, it has to do with being responsible for what you do about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    If we are free all the time, and I go ob believing we are not, this does not mean I am a slave to what I believe controls me, because I do not believe I am aware of what controls me. I will hopefully learn techniques to rise above influence, and maximize what little control I have over myself, my life, but my destiny, is something I have no control over, I'm not even aware of it.
    Look I do not know you or your life, I only know the words you write here and the logical implication that I see is a denial of responsibility. The words say to me that your life is not up to you. It sounds like objective observational approach to life rather than a subjective participation. It is in your words that I see these same words "I am what I am" with only the tense changed to "I will be what I will be", which frankly sounds even worse to me. For I can see a value in a objective and honest appraisal of self in the here in now to say, "yes, this is what I am". The problem is only if you confine your self to this to say that this is what you have to be and that you have no say in what you will be.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    So, in admitting that I do not know, I, for the sake of usefulness choose destiny over free will, and in no way think that hinders my free will, if I am wrong.
    Argh maybe this is all semantics and what you call "destiny" is what I would call the potential that God sees in me and which He works to bring to fruition in me. And what you are calling free will is some grotesque exaggeration that I would call a strawman. I think the point is that we are responsible and cannot blame our choices on anything but ourselves. Influences remain just influence and it is we who decide how to respond to them.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    If your destiny is something like "you will have a heavy heart beat every 13 minutes" this is not implying that you won't have heart beats in between these destined heart beats, but you might be slightly different because of it than someone who has the destiny "you will take a deep breath every 13 hours and 6 minutes"
    I like this. In my theory, I would alter it to "you have a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999% chance that you will have a heavy heart beat every 13 minute" That is the line I draw. I, personally, just hate absolutes.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    If your destiny is something like "you will have a heavy heart beat every 13 minutes" this is not implying that you won't have heart beats in between these destined heart beats, but you might be slightly different because of it than someone who has the destiny "you will take a deep breath every 13 hours and 6 minutes"
    I like this. In my theory, I would alter it to "you have a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999% chance that you will have a heavy heart beat every 13 minute" That is the line I draw. I, personally, just hate absolutes.
    You hate all absolutes? Or 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999% of absolutes?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  11. #10  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Well, despite all of this, I do not believe one way or the other. I simply choose to think that one way is more productive than the others that I am aware of. I do not believe this way is true, just productive.

    And Arc, I can indeed understand where you are coming from, I just CHOOSE to believe that everything is accessible and thus predetermined, and if this is true than even that choice of mine to believe such things. Please don't assume this is a way to avoid responsibility, because it is not, as you said you don't know me, you only know my words, and there are many different ways to say the same thing, and many similar ways to say very different things.

    Your view on faith is the same as mine, and we find two different things because of it.

    You say that what you believe makes you who you are, but I believe who you are determines what you believe. If there is free will it is that .00000000000000001% of all that we are.

    This relatively insignificant amount however probably has compounding effects and may be the ultimate source of all other parts of us.

    But this is what I mean by "we don't decide what we do, but we do decide what does"

    Our free will is something that is there, but all we can do is point it in a direction, and the rest is up to circumstance.

    None of this is a straw man, to the best of my limited knowledge. If you mean what I think you mean by accusing me of using such foul tactics I should probably be offended, but I'll refrain.

    I have faith in the unknown, and one of the things I don't know is whether or not things are predetermined.
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    I didn't accuse you of anything marcus. I only offered to you my thoughts on your thoughts, honestly. everything I have posted in this thread is pure opinion, all of which is mine.

    I don't find it, really, to be only a small bit of self that is influenced by choice. I think the numbers would be much much higher, though not really an exact thing, just a major influencing factor. The bits of Self that either come from or influence Choice, free thought and action, would be massively important to who you are, and how you are defined. How else would you assess who a person is, if not by the choices they make and actions they pursue?
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I didn't accuse you of anything marcus. I only offered to you my thoughts on your thoughts, honestly. everything I have posted in this thread is pure opinion, all of which is mine.
    It is confusing but maybe he was reacting to me since I did use the word "strawman" in my response to him. But mine was not an accusation either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I don't find it, really, to be only a small bit of self that is influenced by choice. I think the numbers would be much much higher, though not really an exact thing, just a major influencing factor. The bits of Self that either come from or influence Choice, free thought and action, would be massively important to who you are, and how you are defined. How else would you assess who a person is, if not by the choices they make and actions they pursue?
    I think maybe there are some big cultural differences here, where Americans are often on one end of the spectrum of self-determination while in other cultures people derive most if not all their sense of identity from their relationships with others. I certainly have nothing against this latter cultural outlook but I don't think it justifies this stuff about destiny and predestination as a universal truth. In fact I think this fits right in with my first post in this thread, where destiny is really found in the roles which other people have chosen for us.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    hmm. Looking at your first post, I see you see Destiny as some potential one could achieve, and it seems more specifically the potential that some outside force is going to attempt to impose on you, be it a parent, teacher, or even God; is that right?
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

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    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Yeah, sorry, I should have made it clear who I was directing what to. I was distracted and forgot who said what.

    Anyway, this part of the discussion is the one I was hoping to avoid, since it is unfalsifiable, either way.



    The part of the topic I should have emphasized a little better is "What is psychologically adaptive about the ideas of free will and destiny" Why would they exist, just to unify us and promote cooperation?

    I was thinking last night about what MM said "Some people have destinies because these people are chosen by various persons."

    Expanding on it I would say that maybe "Some people have free will because these people are chosen by various persons."

    Much like leader-follower duality. Quite possibly the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    hmm. Looking at your first post, I see you see Destiny as some potential one could achieve, and it seems more specifically the potential that some outside force is going to attempt to impose on you, be it a parent, teacher, or even God; is that right?
    Yeah that is the only way I could imagine some kind of destiny existing outside of oneself. But now that I think about it, there are also cases where people do this for themselves and having a dream they decide it is their destiny to do what this dream calls them to do. The doctrine of "manifest destiny" in American history comes to mind.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Okay. I think I understand your viewpoint. You have absolutely no belief in predetermination, right? self fulfilling prophecy is one thing, but to have some unknown, predetermined event is beyond what you would accept as a possibility in reality. I agree there, and I would agree that the only 'destiny' that can exist is the 'self-made' prophecy that people will create either for themselves or for the people they influence.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    Okay. I think I understand your viewpoint. You have absolutely no belief in predetermination, right? self fulfilling prophecy is one thing, but to have some unknown, predetermined event is beyond what you would accept as a possibility in reality. I agree there, and I would agree that the only 'destiny' that can exist is the 'self-made' prophecy that people will create either for themselves or for the people they influence.
    Predestination as in absolute foreknowledge of what individuals will choose, no I do not. But that does not mean that a great deal of the course of history is not predictable by prophesy. Large numbers make a difference especially where the majority of people choose habits that make their awareness very narrow and in other ways destroy their own free will. And this is why I see no contradiction with the Bible. So I understand the usage of this word "predestination" in the Bible to mean this kind of destiny as I have described it in my first post in this thread.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Forum Masters Degree Golkarian's Avatar
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    I think the first option: "It is just an idea with no basis in reality", could be broken into two parts, one says we decide, one says indeterminate quantum events decide, either way destiny wouldn't exist, but the two options say very different things about the universe.

    Also I wonder, how would a universe with destiny differ from a universe without it?
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    The matter and energy that makes up life are subject to the same physical properties as everything else in the Universe. The idea of destiny sits along side Wizards, magic wands, Jesus, Leprechans and the worship of Sponge Bob...ignorance that substitutes for a lack of rationally obtained knowledge.

    'Gee, it must be destiny. how else could you explain....' 'Gee, it must be god how else.....'
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    Thanks for the lesson in bias framing of statements. They show no scientific value, but reveal your own opinion about people who believe in destiny.

    One can say the same thing about those who believe in free will without any evidence to support it.

    "Gee, why does it seem as though I choose the things I do, gee, maybe because I possess free will" "Gee" doesn't prove anything except your own bias.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Thanks for the lesson in bias framing of statements. They show no scientific value, but reveal your own opinion about people who believe in destiny.

    One can say the same thing about those who believe in free will without any evidence to support it.

    "Gee, why does it seem as though I choose the things I do, gee, maybe because I possess free will" "Gee" doesn't prove anything except your own bias.
    Baloney. I am the only one to use the evidence of science. As stated. The physical properties of matter and energy are not subject to human nuance. The theories of general and special relativity combined with our understanding of quantum mechanics does not allow for 'destiny'. Quantum mechanics is, in essence, the antithesis of a pre-structured matrix.
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    It's not that simple, sorry. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the seeming randomness/chaos of quantum mechanics and relativity are not determined. To the contrary, we can determine the effects of relativity quite well don't you think? It is only a matter of time, in my opinion, before we descover how to predict quantum wierdness, and then it won't be so wierd.

    Still, even if we were able to predict something we previously thought was random, it doesn't prove destiny exists. It is unfalsifiable, that is, can't be proven right, and can't be proven wrong. It can only be chosen, one way or the other, but no one can prove that that choice could have been any different under the same exact circumstances that it was made. Completely unfalsifiable, claiming "there is no such thing as this" or "there is no such thing as that" without knowing is just self deception.

    I voted wrong in my survey. It is a confusing subject and sometimes I think I know, but it is clear, I do not know, and I know(but accept that I could be wrong) that neither does anyone else.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    It's not that simple, sorry. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the seeming randomness/chaos of quantum mechanics and relativity are not determined. To the contrary, we can determine the effects of relativity quite well don't you think? It is only a matter of time, in my opinion, before we descover how to predict quantum wierdness, and then it won't be so wierd.
    And this is the same sort of nonsense that says, "its only a matter of time until we discover faster than light travel", or "its only a matter of time until we discover that evolution is wrong", etc. etc. These are BS because NONE of these are gaps in scientific knowledge, they are in fact scientific DISCOVERIES. These are conclusions forced upon us by the evidence. The species evolved from common ancestors. There is no relative velocity greater than the speed of light. And there are no hidden variables to determine the results of quantum measurements within the strictures of the scientific world view.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Still, even if we were able to predict something we previously thought was random, it doesn't prove destiny exists. It is unfalsifiable, that is, can't be proven right, and can't be proven wrong.
    Ironically it is the very fact that physical determinism is dead that makes what you say here absolutely true. If there is a closure to causality that can rescue determinism it will not be found by the methods of science and so this sort of destiny is indeed an unfalsifiable proposition.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    It can only be chosen, one way or the other, but no one can prove that that choice could have been any different under the same exact circumstances that it was made. Completely unfalsifiable, claiming "there is no such thing as this" or "there is no such thing as that" without knowing is just self deception.

    I voted wrong in my survey. It is a confusing subject and sometimes I think I know, but it is clear, I do not know, and I know(but accept that I could be wrong) that neither does anyone else.
    Which is why the sensible approach is to stay firmly rooted on the ground in everyday experiences where the there is ample substance from which the word "destiny" is given meaning, as I did in my first post in this thread.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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