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  1. #1 question on heaven. 
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    in heaven, will you be able to meet every single one of your ancestors, if you so wishes? even the more ancient ones?


    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    The oldest ones you could possibly meet, if there turns out to be a biblical heaven, would be from 6000 years ago.

    The problem is, how do you find out who is an ancestor?

    Better question: how do you find out who isn't? Since in the last 6000 years, every person should have around ancestors.

    Praise be to inbreeding...


    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    There are as many versions of heaven as there are people who believe in it. A recent poll placed belief in heaven among Americans at something like 90%. This poll tells us not a single thing about heaven but a lot about 90% of the American public.

    The Christian bible mentions heave something like 580 times, but offers not a clue as to what it's like.
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    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Those with no imagination, then, presumably have a better chance of becoming atheists.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    and the really funny thing is that everyone has an opinion about what heaven is.
    my mom used to tell me that heaven was where everyone went when they died, so that when i died, i'd still meet my mother in heaven.
    and most of the movies seems to be depicting that you'll get to meet your parents, your parents get to meet their parents, etc.
    now imagine the family banquet of your lineage.. it'd be this enormously long line of people sitting side by side..
    but on the grand scale, it does mean everyone is everyone's quadrillionth cousin.
    imagine how it would be for those of the oldest ancestry.
    they'd have over ... i dunno. must be far more than 6 billion grand^n children.
    i guess there's a point where its just no longer fun to meet your offspring. you'd spend all of eternity getting to know these people and their histories.
    anyways, that earth is 6000 years old is only according to the king james bible i think.
    secular christians are going to have a whole nother problem on their hands.
    everyone with brains knows that christianity is an offshoot of judaism.
    lets imagine that god of the bible won't shoot fireballs at your face if you use his name in vain, but is a benevolent and fair ruler of everything.
    i mean. otherwise babys who die stillborn, or die before they can be christened or get to know the wonders of religion wouldn't be accepted into heaven.
    so everyone who doesn't know about christianity gets in by default.
    when does this stop?
    i mean, trace your lineage back far enough, and it starts looking less and less human. i mean, even proto-humans would have a desire to meet their parents in heaven too, right? even australophithecus afarensis.
    hrm, my point is getting muddled.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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  7. #6 Re: question on heaven. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    in heaven, will you be able to meet every single one of your ancestors, if you so wishes? even the more ancient ones?
    If you try to overlap a materialistic paradigm with a transcendental one, problems ensue.

    IOW designating the corporeal body as the ultimate repository of selfhood and designating heaven (or perhaps heaven and hell) as the ultimate repository for all selves causes a few problems of logistics (what to speak of if you begin introducing the idea of the phenomenal universe being eternal)
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    imagine how long the line in front of the pearly gates would have to be
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    imagine how long the line in front of the pearly gates would have to be
    imagine not overlapping a materialistic paradigm with a transcendental one .....
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    I'm more of the mentality that you die, get debriefed and move on to your next assignment. Might even be on an alien planet. Your human existence being totally forgotten. You may even come back as a Golden Retriever with some purpose. You won't know the purpose outright, however you will head in the direction your suppose to go, call it instinct.
    Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name
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    yeah imagine that. there would be no need for words. unfortunately, we're not there yet, and feelings needs to be objectified with words.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    Suppose that the question of what is heaven like, is much like the question of what a book is like. The only limitations are found in the limitations of the imagination of the writer, right? Now suppose that in the case of heaven, you are the writer.

    I would argue that this is only understanding of heaven that could possibly make sense. Otherwise you basically have a heaven that would not be heaven to everyone but only to a few and thus only a few would even want to go there, don't you think?

    In fact, when you look at our lives it becomes rather obvious that what is heaven is an ever changing vista. Pleasures and thrills eventually pall and then we must finds something new. So besides the idea of heaven requiring that we be the writer or creator of a heaven all our own, will will need some kind of neverending source of inspiration to fire our imagination.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    yeah imagine that. there would be no need for words. unfortunately, we're not there yet, and feelings needs to be objectified with words.
    It pays to quote
    Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    yeah imagine that. there would be no need for words. unfortunately, we're not there yet, and feelings needs to be objectified with words.
    I'm not sure how words are unique to a materialistic paradigm.
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    imagine how long the line in front of the pearly gates would have to be
    imagine not overlapping a materialistic paradigm with a transcendental one .....
    This sort of post-modernist double-talk really doesn't mean anything. "Transcendental paradigms" are meaningless in science (this is a forum for science, btw) since there are no ways of thinking that "transcend" naturalistic points of view.

    "Materialistic paradigms" is just a post-modernist way of saying naturalistic way of thinking. This is a basic quality of science and necessary for scientific discourse, LG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    imagine how long the line in front of the pearly gates would have to be
    imagine not overlapping a materialistic paradigm with a transcendental one .....
    This sort of post-modernist double-talk really doesn't mean anything. "Transcendental paradigms" are meaningless in science (this is a forum for science, btw) since there are no ways of thinking that "transcend" naturalistic points of view.
    so says the materialistic paradigm

    "Materialistic paradigms" is just a post-modernist way of saying naturalistic way of thinking. This is a basic quality of science and necessary for scientific discourse, LG.
    I guess its time to burn plato then
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  17. #16  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard SkinWalker's Avatar
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    A typical post-modernist non-rebuttal. Well done. At least it confirms you're LG.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    A typical post-modernist non-rebuttal.
    Does that make Plato the first post modernist?


    Well done. At least it confirms you're LG.



    I don't insist on rewriting 3000 years of philosophy just for the sake of making my world view valid, if that's what you mean
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    I don't insist on rewriting 3000 years of philosophy just for the sake of making my world view valid, if that's what you mean
    Which 3000 years of philosophy? There are several conflicting ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    imagine how long the line in front of the pearly gates would have to be
    imagine not overlapping a materialistic paradigm with a transcendental one .....
    You mean, don't mix the observable with stuff you made up?

    My view on heaven: no evidence. Likeliest explanation for widespread belief in it is fear of death. Occam's majick 8-ball says "outlook not so good".
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBiologista
    My view on heaven: no evidence. Likeliest explanation for widespread belief in it is fear of death. Occam's majick 8-ball says "outlook not so good".
    my view too. but its a fun thought experiment.

    i mean, just imagine your entire lineage of ancestors sitting along the worlds longest table, from you to your absolute oldest amoeba ancestor.
    or having a chat with of your(or rather our) pre-human forefathers.
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    imagine how it would be for those of the oldest ancestry.
    Are you saying that some of us are of younger ancestry than others? Descended not from Adam and Eve, and from the first humans (and hominids before them, and all the way up the tree of evolution), but from, say, some 16-th century golem?

    Some of us know their family tree umpteen generations back into history; others may not even know who their parents were, but nevertheless somebody was their mother and father, and they in turn had their parents (even if they didn't know them either), so everybody's true ancestry is just as old, and very old indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    they'd have over ... i dunno. must be far more than 6 billion grand^n children.
    i guess there's a point where its just no longer fun to meet your offspring. you'd spend all of eternity getting to know these people and their histories.
    That's one of the many good reasons why heaven is forever, Deja I'd give you another but there might be children reading this
    Leszek. Pronounced [LEH-sheck]. The wondering Slav.
    History teaches us that we don't learn from history.
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  22. #21 Re: question on heaven. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    in heaven, will you be able to meet every single one of your ancestors, if you so wishes? even the more ancient ones?
    Certainly yes if you happen to be there and you can chat with them, also the other lover of your lover if do so ( the rival ) and you can chat with!!!
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