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Thread: Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians?

  1. #1 Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians? 
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    Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians?

    I was born R C but my respect for my own has been steadily eroded by the fact that I have been ejected, from most R C forums that I have found and joined. Sometimes with no reason given and once simply because of my name and avatar.

    The tolerance that I find in these R C sites is basically non existent and even before posting anything I look at various topic and see that the closed ones are mostly those that go towards debate.
    In looking at various posters that are banned I see that some are banned for fairly non controversial subjects and that few debates on the morals of scripture are allowed.

    I do tend to get in some trouble at some Fundamental sites but see some tolerance in most of them.
    R C sites though are what I would call fully intolerant.

    Do R C fear debate that much that their moderators must be so intolerant that no decent from the status quo dogma is allowed?

    Why do they show such fear of normal debate?

    Is it the same mind set that made the old Church brand scientists as heretics if their science did not back up the Church view, or is the fear of debate they show from some other source?


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    DL


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    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
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    As an atheist I have no particular brief for any form of Christianity (or Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism to name the others in the 4 horsemen of religion), but...

    The Roman Catholic church may seem monolithic and stuck in its ways, but only if seen in the light of, say, modern well-organised Protestantism, with its almost agnostic vicars (at least in the C of E here in England), it's easy acceptance of women's rights, gay rights and so on.

    But compare it with the Jehovah's Witnesses, the hardcore Mormons, and just about any Deep South preacher who claims to be a Fundamentalist because the only word of God is in the King James Version (and let him argue as to whether it should be called the AV or the KJV) and everything except what he approves is a sign of the Harlot of Babylon, and then tell me that the RC is genuinely oppressive and uninterested in dialogue. At least the RC has admitted there is merit to evolution and the Darwinian model of antural selection: try getting that past allegedly secular exam boards in the mid-West!


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    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    I don't think they fear it, I just think they don't like it. If it was fear then we could easily justify it as something beyond their control, but it is a choice they make, to avoid debate, not just an impulse, like a phobia.

    Calling it fear is blatant propaganda, but using the word "fear" wrong.

    Concider: a mother fears for their childrens well being. Most people are afraid of snakes. Most animals are afraid of fire. Some people are afraid of hights. etc

    Corresponding threats have been around long enough for us to develop ingrained fears to protect us from them. Debate on the other hand is relatively recent, and although it is possible that in some individuals the fear of debate is lumped under one big "general fear of conflict" or the fear that debate may lead to physical violence, I will wager that most individuals who don't debate, are not afraid, but simply choose not to, for various reasons. Maybe some are afraid of being wrong, but some are likely not afraid, but just trying to be happy people, free of doubt and fear, as much as possible.

    Roman Catholics, because of the required devotion to be accepted in the group, may force people to repress much of their fears and doubts, and debate, no matter how civil, threatens to surface these repressed feelings.

    But one good example of why it is bad to debate. Take this stance I am taking for example. If I am wrong, but someone believes this is true, then it will support or change their opinion of Roman Catholics. So for purely, socio-political reasons, it might be best not to debate. There might also be better ways of coming to terms with reality, and avoiding debate is a means to an end, whereas for some, debate is the means AND the end.

    It is also possible that they do indeed debate, but only on specific subjects, only with certain people, when a certain attitude commonly found in debate is missing. A "holy debate" of sorts, maybe. I don't know, just shooting out ideas.
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  5. #4 Re: Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians? 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians?
    Logical failure.
    Demonstrate that the Roman Catholics and other Christians who go on forums are a representative cross section of Roman Catholics and Christians.
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  6. #5 Re: Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians?
    Logical failure.
    Demonstrate that the Roman Catholics and other Christians who go on forums are a representative cross section of Roman Catholics and Christians.
    Sure.

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    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    As an atheist I have no particular brief for any form of Christianity (or Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism to name the others in the 4 horsemen of religion), but...

    The Roman Catholic church may seem monolithic and stuck in its ways, but only if seen in the light of, say, modern well-organised Protestantism, with its almost agnostic vicars (at least in the C of E here in England), it's easy acceptance of women's rights, gay rights and so on.

    But compare it with the Jehovah's Witnesses, the hardcore Mormons, and just about any Deep South preacher who claims to be a Fundamentalist because the only word of God is in the King James Version (and let him argue as to whether it should be called the AV or the KJV) and everything except what he approves is a sign of the Harlot of Babylon, and then tell me that the RC is genuinely oppressive and uninterested in dialogue. At least the RC has admitted there is merit to evolution and the Darwinian model of antural selection: try getting that past allegedly secular exam boards in the mid-West!
    As I recall, the Pope has said that scripture is not to be read literally yet many Catholics do. just as Fundamental as Fundamentals.

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    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I don't think they fear it, I just think they don't like it. If it was fear then we could easily justify it as something beyond their control, but it is a choice they make, to avoid debate, not just an impulse, like a phobia.

    Calling it fear is blatant propaganda, but using the word "fear" wrong.

    Concider: a mother fears for their childrens well being. Most people are afraid of snakes. Most animals are afraid of fire. Some people are afraid of hights. etc

    Corresponding threats have been around long enough for us to develop ingrained fears to protect us from them. Debate on the other hand is relatively recent, and although it is possible that in some individuals the fear of debate is lumped under one big "general fear of conflict" or the fear that debate may lead to physical violence, I will wager that most individuals who don't debate, are not afraid, but simply choose not to, for various reasons. Maybe some are afraid of being wrong, but some are likely not afraid, but just trying to be happy people, free of doubt and fear, as much as possible.

    Roman Catholics, because of the required devotion to be accepted in the group, may force people to repress much of their fears and doubts, and debate, no matter how civil, threatens to surface these repressed feelings.

    But one good example of why it is bad to debate. Take this stance I am taking for example. If I am wrong, but someone believes this is true, then it will support or change their opinion of Roman Catholics. So for purely, socio-political reasons, it might be best not to debate. There might also be better ways of coming to terms with reality, and avoiding debate is a means to an end, whereas for some, debate is the means AND the end.

    It is also possible that they do indeed debate, but only on specific subjects, only with certain people, when a certain attitude commonly found in debate is missing. A "holy debate" of sorts, maybe. I don't know, just shooting out ideas.
    They do but nothing fundamental, if I can use that word.

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    DL
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  9. #8 Re: Why do R C fear debate more than other Christians? 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Sure.
    Sure of what? Sure that you have made a logical error and therefore your thread is pointless. Sure, you will be happy to demonstrate that forum Christians typify all Christians? Or some other kind of sure?

    I'm not sure what you mean?
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    as proven by the latest announcement, evolutionists fear fair debates far more than roman catholics.

    the one reason off the top of my head as to why roman catholics fear debate, and you would have to limit that thought to the leadership not the general populace, is because the majority of their doctrines are NOT scriptural.

    moderator: This unsubstantiated opinion about something other than your own faith. So unless you are prepared to go through the Catholic Catechism and back up your claim by showing how the majority of it is "not scriptural", this sounds like more of your preaching to me.
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  11. #10  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Actually, moderator, I can back up his claim. It is nonetheless an opinion, but one that is seeded from facts.

    Archeologist, I will allow you to defend yourself if you so much as choose, but for starters: They worship on Sunday, the 1st day, and not Saturday, the 7th day as is commanded in scripture. This is not peculiar to RC however, most Christians do the same.

    Don't quote me on it, but I'm pretty sure plenty of them eat pork as well as fish and wild game game. This is also not peculiar to RC. To be fair though, this can't be considered a part of their rituals, but something individuals choose to do, most likely apart from their religious devotion.

    If any of them have ever had Hamburger helper, beef strogenoff, lasagna, or any other food with milk and beef, this is also a trespass. If any parent has left their child uncircumcised, this is a trespass. Sex outside of marriage, also a trespass.

    But marriage brings up a good point. What is a legitimate marriage? Is it by the states standards? By the churches standards? It's not described in the bible, is it? What makes for a holy wedding seems to be open to interpretation. Requiring the Church to be married seems to be a trespass. I always though, if marriage is enforced, and required to have sex, then sex should be the marriage rite, this would prevent a lot of unnecessary guilt and bureaucratic BS getting in the way of the infinite spontaneity of the holy spirit.

    Again, this can't be considered a RC thing either.

    It is an interesting theory Archaeologist brings to the table, I would like to see some charts comparing levels of faith to interpretations, but the data for that would probably be very hard to compile... something likely to be found in the secret vaults of Scientology.
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  12. #11  
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    Gents must remember that the Roman Church is a very, very large organization that contains a wide variety of beliefs that loosely fall under the aegis of Catholicism. Interpretations of scripture vary from extremely conservative to very liberal. There are many Catholics who accept Creationism, there are also Catholics who reject the existence of Satan and try to better understand the nature of God by examining other religions. Its difficult to sum up an organization that has existed for some 20 centuries, encompasses a wide variety interpretations and philosophies.
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    the moderator continues to show his bias and hatred as he has been proven to not follow his claims and has been shown to be a heretic. his unwarranted edit and attack shows that he is not of Christ.

    Archeologist, I will allow you to defend yourself if you so much as choose
    why would i choose? my posts are being arbitrarily labeled by the powers that be and removed. one cannot have a decent discussion nor post the links they want when their initial posts are removed and nothing can be built upon.

    the unfairness that permeates this place is astounding as everyone else posts opinion not facts, nor do they back up those opinions with credible links or references. so it shows the hatred and bias they have towrads christians and how far they will go to remove the truth from these boards.

    but for starters
    what are you talking about? except for sunday you are off in looney tunes land with the rest of that post. i said 'doctrines' not the crap you are saying.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Alright, I'm sorry if I am indeed wrong, please don't attack my sanity, I can manage that on my own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    as proven by the latest announcement, evolutionists fear fair debates far more than roman catholics.

    the one reason off the top of my head as to why roman catholics fear debate, and you would have to limit that thought to the leadership not the general populace, is because the majority of their doctrines are NOT scriptural.

    moderator: This unsubstantiated opinion about something other than your own faith. So unless you are prepared to go through the Catholic Catechism and back up your claim by showing how the majority of it is "not scriptural", this sounds like more of your preaching to me.
    I did not research this but received it elsewhere.

    Sure, I'll list a couple things.

    The Bible states that it's understandable by itself, but the RCC insists that they alone can interpret it.

    The Bible states that it's sufficient for a man of God, but the RCC insists that they must add tradition to the Bible to be sufficient

    Praying to saints (or anyone but God) is strictly forbidden by the Bible, but promoted by the RCC.

    The RCC claims papal infallibility, found nowhere in the Bible.

    Purgatory, not in the Bible

    The Bible states that we are saved through faith in Christ, but the RCC say it's faith plus works, a claim that calls Jesus' death insufficient to save.

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    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Gents must remember that the Roman Church is a very, very large organization that contains a wide variety of beliefs that loosely fall under the aegis of Catholicism. Interpretations of scripture vary from extremely conservative to very liberal. There are many Catholics who accept Creationism, there are also Catholics who reject the existence of Satan and try to better understand the nature of God by examining other religions. Its difficult to sum up an organization that has existed for some 20 centuries, encompasses a wide variety interpretations and philosophies.
    I have yet to find a Catholic site that thinks the way you describe.

    Who, Where?

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    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Gents must remember that the Roman Church is a very, very large organization that contains a wide variety of beliefs that loosely fall under the aegis of Catholicism. Interpretations of scripture vary from extremely conservative to very liberal. There are many Catholics who accept Creationism, there are also Catholics who reject the existence of Satan and try to better understand the nature of God by examining other religions. Its difficult to sum up an organization that has existed for some 20 centuries, encompasses a wide variety interpretations and philosophies.
    I have yet to find a Catholic site that thinks the way you describe.

    Who, Where?

    Regards
    DL
    An example would be Father Reginald Foster, a Carmelite, who was interviewed in the movie Religulous and stated that he does not believe in Hell. From the same movie is Father George Coyne who is dismissive considers creationism pseudo science. While just two examples, the RCC is a very big organization with widely varying beliefs.
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  18. #17  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    As with any organization, especially one like RC, it must appeal to the local culture to spread.

    The RC is the premier example of this, but most of Christianity follows along, disagreeing only with the rules and rituals, but not with the holidays, for example. Most holidays at this point are not Holy-days, but are national consumer days.

    It doesn't take much of a stretch of the imagination to know that a RC missionary in Chili has it's dissimilarities with those in the Vatican, and those in NY city. While the fundamentals may remain the same, one could argue that the fundamentals remain the same in all religions, and it is the outward expression of these fundamentals that makes a religion what it is, in which case the RCC is as diverse as it is large.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    My impression is that there is more diversity in the Catholic clergy than in the Catholic laymen. It is a top down organization and however much it may adjust to the culture in order to pull people in, top down organizations have a habit of sending people from the center of authority to bring locales into line with approved practice and beliefs.

    So where I have seen the greatest diversity in the Catholic church is not between different cultures but among the priests, monks and nuns who have not only quite a diversity of callings (different kinds of jobs) but all have quite a diversity of views as can be found in the books that they write.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Gents must remember that the Roman Church is a very, very large organization that contains a wide variety of beliefs that loosely fall under the aegis of Catholicism. Interpretations of scripture vary from extremely conservative to very liberal. There are many Catholics who accept Creationism, there are also Catholics who reject the existence of Satan and try to better understand the nature of God by examining other religions. Its difficult to sum up an organization that has existed for some 20 centuries, encompasses a wide variety interpretations and philosophies.
    I have yet to find a Catholic site that thinks the way you describe.

    Who, Where?

    Regards
    DL
    An example would be Father Reginald Foster, a Carmelite, who was interviewed in the movie Religulous and stated that he does not believe in Hell. From the same movie is Father George Coyne who is dismissive considers creationism pseudo science. While just two examples, the RCC is a very big organization with widely varying beliefs.
    Thanks for this.

    Too bad that there is no forum that takes this more liberal/minority view. Do you know if the Pope agrees with this view? If He does then He should let the majority of Catholics know it.

    Regards
    DL
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