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Thread: Has God given up the right to punish through giving free wil

  1. #1 Has God given up the right to punish through giving free wil 
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    Has God given up the right to punish through giving free will? If so, there is no hell.

    It is said that God gave man free will.
    This to me, means that God gave man dominion over himself and over the earth. Without any restrictions or coercion from Him.

    The idea then that He would mean that we must do as He says or go to hell cannot be a true concept if the term free will is to mean anything.

    If we as parents give or allow our children to have freedom when they leave our homes, then that means that we give up any right or responsibility to punish them.

    To keep things simple, let us say that the rules of my home includes making the bed.
    I notice when visiting my children in their home, that they have chosen not to make their beds.
    I then would be out of line to reprimand or punish them for not making their beds. They are free to do so or not if they have free will.

    This seems right. It is no longer my place as a father to punish them. They are free and have dominion over themselves.

    God then should not and would not hold a hell over our heads to demand compliance to His rules.

    Is free will with consequences from God, hell for non compliance, free will at all?
    Is being free to only follow His rules free will?
    Has God given up the right to punish free men?
    Do we truly have dominion on earth?

    Regards
    DL


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    NO


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  4. #3 Re: Has God given up the right to punish through giving free 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Has God given up the right to punish through giving free will? If so, there is no hell.

    It is said that God gave man free will.
    This to me, means that God gave man dominion over himself and over the earth. Without any restrictions or coercion from Him.
    there's a subtle difference between free will and unlimited will
    The idea then that He would mean that we must do as He says or go to hell cannot be a true concept if the term free will is to mean anything.
    Generally free will means that there is no impairment of an individual's ability to reach an independent decision as opposed to being free from the consequences of implementing that decision
    If we as parents give or allow our children to have freedom when they leave our homes, then that means that we give up any right or responsibility to punish them.
    You neglect to take into account that a healthy part of that also involves being responsible to other bodies of the "adult" world, from law, to the workplace, to the social nuances. More commonly all this comes under the banner of "responsibility".
    To keep things simple, let us say that the rules of my home includes making the bed.
    I notice when visiting my children in their home, that they have chosen not to make their beds.
    I then would be out of line to reprimand or punish them for not making their beds. They are free to do so or not if they have free will.

    This seems right. It is no longer my place as a father to punish them. They are free and have dominion over themselves.

    God then should not and would not hold a hell over our heads to demand compliance to His rules.
    The actual point is that upon reaching a certain point of maturity, parents no longer have the leverage to exert punishment. This in no way makes their offspring beyond issues of punishment. It simply means that the task is relegated to another authority. Of course not making one's bed is hardly a criminal offense.
    Now suppose they crash into someone else's car......


    Is free will with consequences from God, hell for non compliance, free will at all?
    certainly
    Is being free to only follow His rules free will?
    the introduction of consequences to choices doesn't impinge upon issues of free will.
    Has God given up the right to punish free men?
    Just as much as the state has the right to implement consequences to decisions
    Do we truly have dominion on earth?
    Discussions of dominion divorced from issues of responsibility and consequence are absurd. Even if a body (such as a political party) has dominion over a region, the most effective fashion to go down in a ball of flames is to disregard issues of obligation, responsibility and consequence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    NO
    A well thought out answer rebuttal.

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    DL
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    punarmusiko

    So my way or go to hell is free choice. OK

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    punarmusiko

    So my way or go to hell is free choice. OK

    Regards
    DL
    sure

    just like "drive on the right side of the road or lose your license" is free choice.
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  8. #7 Re: Has God given up the right to punish through giving free 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Has God given up the right to punish through giving free will?
    No. Children have free will but it remains the responsibility of parents to use measures to correct their behavior. Without free will, either there would be no need for punishment or there would be no purpose for it, because its purpose it to encourage a change of behavior by demonstrating to children that their actions can have negative consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    If so, there is no hell.
    Incorrect. Just because hell as an eternal punishment does make any sense does not mean that there is no hell. In fact, hell is a direct consequence of freedom and free will. The more freedom you give to people the more they are free to make their lives and the lives of those around them a living hell. Hell as the fiery torture chamber of a sadistic god only suggests that you have constructed a childish concept of god that isn't worthy of worship. The only hell that really makes any sense is the hell that is created by the people who are in it and that is a consequence of the freedom of the people in it to be the kind of people that they choose to be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    It is said that God gave man free will.
    This to me, means that God gave man dominion over himself and over the earth. Without any restrictions or coercion from Him.
    Nonsense. There are restrictions. God has decreed that people who step off 20 story buildings without special equipment shall be coerced to plunge falling to their death. I know it sounds a little harsh but how shall our actions have any meaning if nothing we do makes any difference?

    Free will simply means that we make our own choices and no one is responsible for those choices except ourselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    The idea then that He would mean that we must do as He says or go to hell cannot be a true concept if the term free will is to mean anything.
    But God DOES NOT tell us what we MUST do. Yes He will say things like, "do not step off of 20 story buildings without proper equipment", and if we ignore Him and do this anyway the we will have cause to regret that choice. Yes He will tell you to love your neighbor as yourself and likewise if we ignore Him and do not do this then we will have cause to regret that choice as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    If we as parents give or allow our children to have freedom when they leave our homes, then that means that we give up any right or responsibility to punish them.

    To keep things simple, let us say that the rules of my home includes making the bed.
    I notice when visiting my children in their home, that they have chosen not to make their beds.
    I then would be out of line to reprimand or punish them for not making their beds. They are free to do so or not if they have free will.

    This seems right. It is no longer my place as a father to punish them. They are free and have dominion over themselves.
    Yes indeed, the rules and the freedoms change as children grow older, doesn't it? Does this not suggest that the rules that God holds us to might also change as we mature? Thus we see a change in the Bible from the Old Testament to the New, where in the OT God commands that all His children shall undergo circumcision but then Paul in the NT says that this is not necessary. Jesus has revealed that the purpose of the law is an ideal of love, both His love for us which seeks to help us to change in a positive way to live better lives, and to relate to one another according to the principles of brotherly love. It should be exactly the same as the purpose of these rules that a parent makes in his household.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    God then should not and would not hold a hell over our heads to demand compliance to His rules.
    No the portrayal of God that is indistinguishable from a man waving a gun around and thinking that this entitles him to obedience, is one that is devoid of merit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Is free will with consequences from God, hell for non compliance, free will at all?
    Yes. Without consequences there is no free will. No consequences would neccessarily mean that someone else is in complete control of your life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Is being free to only follow His rules free will?
    Is being free to only obey the law of gravity, free will? Does the rules and techniques that we learn in activities such as mountain climbing mean that if we follow the rules then we no longer have free will? Does the artist have no free will if he follows the rules he has been taught? Of course not. Rules give meaning and structure to life and thus give us greater freedom not less freedom.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Has God given up the right to punish free men?
    No. Punishment from God is a blessing just as punishment from ones parents is evidence that they love their children. It is when a parent gives up on his children and no longer makes any effort to correct them, that is when they are alone against the world. There are those that God gives up on as well, giving them over to their own passions to live and act as they choose (Rom 1:28), but these are damned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Do we truly have dominion on earth?
    Obviously. We need only to look at the mess we have made of it to see that this is true.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    punarmusiko

    So my way or go to hell is free choice. OK

    Regards
    DL
    sure

    just like "drive on the right side of the road or lose your license" is free choice.
    Then so is come and be my slave or burn in hell.

    Free choice is great.

    Regards
    DL
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  10. #9  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
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    Better example is..

    "Love me or I will torture you until you die"

    Now do you really have a choice in the matter? Or how about..

    "Love me or I will kill your child"
    Do you really have a CHOICE? No, you don't.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
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    mitchellmckain

    Let me recap what I think you are saying.

    We “ obviously “ have dominion over the earth and ourselves

    but in terms of punishment, we must still give dominion to God. That would mean that we do not have dominion. The king has no one over him.
    -------------

    “ Punishment is to correct behavior ”

    but in the case of eternal hell changing behavior is not what it is there for. Even if behavior is altered the door stays closed. If the behavior is physical then it cannot be altered in the non physical realm.
    ------------------------------------

    “ God does not tell us what we must do ”

    but if we happen to not do what he wants then it is ok for him to send us to hell.
    ----------------------------

    “ Punishment from God is a blessing”

    To suffer forever, 120000000000000000000+ yrs. When we can only sin for 120 yrs. Is a blessing from God.
    ----------------------------

    “ Free will simply means that we make our own choices and no one is responsible for those choices except ourselves. “

    That being so then we will reap the rewards or the costs for the choices we make here in this physical world.
    ----------------------------

    What gives God the right to inflict eternal punishment without any benefit to him or us in the non material world? You said punishment is a blessing. What is this blessing or benefit.

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    DL
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    We “ obviously “ have dominion over the earth and ourselves

    but in terms of punishment, we must still give dominion to God. That would mean that we do not have dominion. The king has no one over him.
    My eldest son has dominion over his own room. This is obvious when we look at its squalor. It does not mean that he has dominion over the everything else. But even his dominion over his room has its limits. He cannot control the law of gravity in there. The situation is identical with regards to mankind's dominion over the earth. Its squalor makes our dominion obvious. Nevertheless it is clear that our dominion also has limit. The dominion of a king also has its limits.

    Dominion does not mean that there are no consequences for what one does. Punishment is the substitution of lesser consquences so that the child may learn to deal with consequences without being overwhelmed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    “ Punishment is to correct behavior ”

    but in the case of eternal hell changing behavior is not what it is there for. Even if behavior is altered the door stays closed. If the behavior is physical then it cannot be altered in the non physical realm.
    That is right. Eternal hell therefore cannot be a matter of punishment. However if you insist on going your own way and refusing God's parental correction then you are left with facing the consequences of what you choose. It is like refusing to listen to a parent who forbids you from playing on the roof. If you fall you can enjoy your dominion over your own destiny on your journey to the ground and the death you find there which is forever.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    “ God does not tell us what we must do ”

    but if we happen to not do what he wants then it is ok for him to send us to hell.
    Incorrect. We are free to ignore him and create a hell for ourselves if that is what we choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    “ Punishment from God is a blessing”

    To suffer forever, 120000000000000000000+ yrs. When we can only sin for 120 yrs. Is a blessing from God.
    No eternal hell is not a blessing. Eternal hell is not a punishment. Eternal hell is not from God. Eternal hell comes from inside of us.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    “ Free will simply means that we make our own choices and no one is responsible for those choices except ourselves. “

    That being so then we will reap the rewards or the costs for the choices we make here in this physical world.
    We shall suffer the physical consequences of those choices which affect our physical existence which is temporary and we shall suffer the spiritual consequences of those choices which affect our spiritual existence which is eternal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What gives God the right to inflict eternal punishment without any benefit to him or us in the non material world? You said punishment is a blessing. What is this blessing or benefit.
    We can give Him that right by asking Him to do so.

    As I said the purpose of punishment is to teach the child that his actions have conseqences. If the child learns the lessons then he learns to avoid the much worse consequence that his actions can have. Obviously eternal hell is the worst of all consequence and so if we manage to avoid this then that would be the benefit of any blessing of punishment that God might give.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    mitchellmckain

    "We can give Him that right by asking Him to do so. "

    I, like all non believers, will not ask or give him that right.

    Does that then mean that he does not have the right to punish those that do not believe in him.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Better example is..

    "Love me or I will torture you until you die"

    Now do you really have a choice in the matter? Or how about..

    "Love me or I will kill your child"
    Do you really have a CHOICE? No, you don't.
    Logic is good. I wish more Christians had yours.

    Keep it up.

    Regards
    DL
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    mitchellmckain

    "We can give Him that right by asking Him to do so. "

    I, like all non believers, will not ask or give him that right.

    Does that then mean that he does not have the right to punish those that do not believe in him.
    I am not sure where rights come into this. That is a human invention for the manipulation of others. Everyone has the right to use whatever powers he posesses to do what he determines is for best. So I think that it boils down to the simple fact that God cannot ultimately protect us from the consequences of our own choices. Whatever God does to pursue His desire that we have eternal life, we can deny Him that desire and He has to accept this. But that is precisely why hell exists.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    mitchellmckain

    "We can give Him that right by asking Him to do so. "

    I, like all non believers, will not ask or give him that right.

    Does that then mean that he does not have the right to punish those that do not believe in him.
    I am not sure where rights come into this. That is a human invention for the manipulation of others.
    That is exactly what God does if he threatens us with hell.

    Everyone has the right to use whatever powers he posesses to do what he determines is for best.
    Yes. As long as God approves or he sends us to hell.

    So I think that it boils down to the simple fact that God cannot ultimately protect us from the consequences of our own choices. Whatever God does to pursue His desire that we have eternal life, we can deny Him that desire and He has to accept this. But that is precisely why hell exists.
    So then if he cannot protect us he sends us to hell. LOL

    What you wrote makes no sense.

    It is written that god's will is to not lose any soul.
    Sending a soul to hell is losing it.
    Can God's will be thwarted? No.
    You have his will being thwarted by himself. Strange.

    By creating an unjust place for souls.

    It is immoral for us little sinners to spend 120000000000000000000+ yrs. in hell when we can only sin for 120 yrs.

    Penalties that do not fit the sin is unjust.

    For you and I to spend eternity with Hitler and Stalin and Jesus/God himself, all genocidal maniacs is just plain unjust.

    Regards
    DL
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    I believe there are some groups who believe in universal reconciliation, the belief that all began with God and all will join God in the end.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    mitchellmckain: "We can give Him that right by asking Him to do so. "

    I, like all non believers, will not ask or give him that right.

    Does that then mean that he does not have the right to punish those that do not believe in him.
    I am not sure where rights come into this. That is a human invention for the manipulation of others.
    That is exactly what God does if he threatens us with hell.
    Only if hell is something that God does to us rather than something that we do to ourselves. I agree that the former makes no sense at all, but I think the latter makes perfect sense. You can call it manipulation when we warn our children not to play in the street, but to that I simply say, "so what".


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Everyone has the right to use whatever powers he posesses to do what he determines is for best.
    Yes. As long as God approves or he sends us to hell.
    The "everyone" in my statement includes God, and it was in reponse to your talk of rights. I do not believe that God sends anyone to hell and you do not believe that God sends anyone to hell so why this obsession with what you do not believe? Why not confront the the question that does lie between us which is hell not as a punishment but as a logical consequence of our choices.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    So I think that it boils down to the simple fact that God cannot ultimately protect us from the consequences of our own choices. Whatever God does to pursue His desire that we have eternal life, we can deny Him that desire and He has to accept this. But that is precisely why hell exists.
    So then if he cannot protect us he sends us to hell. LOL
    No that does not make any sense. God cannot protect us from our choices because he cannot prevent us from stubbornly insisting on making a hell of our own existence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What you wrote makes no sense.

    It is written that god's will is to not lose any soul.
    Sending a soul to hell is losing it.
    Can God's will be thwarted? No.
    You have his will being thwarted by himself. Strange.

    By creating an unjust place for souls.
    It does not make sense when you insist on attributing things to me which I do not believe. I do not believe in any hell created by God. However I do believe, based on abundant observational evidence, in a hell created by man.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    It is immoral for us little sinners to spend 120000000000000000000+ yrs. in hell when we can only sin for 120 yrs.
    Death seems like a rather unfair punishment for little mistakes like stepping off a 20 story building. Stepping off a building takes only a few seconds but the consequence is forever. That is the nature of life that our choices have consequences that are forever. Complaints that this is "unfair" are childish and meaningless. Better to stop wasting your breath and simply learn to avoid the choices that have such undesirable consequences.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Penalties that do not fit the sin is unjust.
    Agreed. But suffering the natural and logical consequences of our choices is just.
    This is the perfect justice of God, that we get exactly that which we insist on having.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    I believe there are some groups who believe in universal reconciliation, the belief that all began with God and all will join God in the end.
    There are. They are few.

    Religions are supposed to be inclusive but you will notice that most are exclusive.

    At least the western religions. Christianity and Islam for sure.

    Regards
    DL
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    I believe there are some groups who believe in universal reconciliation, the belief that all began with God and all will join God in the end.
    There are. They are few.

    Religions are supposed to be inclusive but you will notice that most are exclusive.

    At least the western religions. Christianity and Islam for sure.

    Regards
    DL
    You don't have to be universalist to be inclusivist. You don't have to believe that our choices have no eternal consequences in order to believe that it is not about which dogmas you swallow.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    mitchellmckain

    We do not agree to what hell is and the OP was written for those who have a God created hell.

    We do not have much to disagree on including human consequences for actions.

    It is God's consequences that I am against. Not man's or nature's. Both make more sense than God's.

    Regards
    DL
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    where is hell mentioned in the bible?
    wasn't the fire and brimstone stuff invented in the middle ages?
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejawolf
    where is hell mentioned in the bible?
    wasn't the fire and brimstone stuff invented in the middle ages?
    my commentary in blue

    Deuteronomy 32:22
    For a fire is kindled in My anger,And shall burn to the lowest hell; It shall consume the earth with her increase, And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
    This sounds like a natural place but that may simply be another use of the word, just as we use the word heaven for the sky.

    Psalm 9:17
    The wicked shall be turned into hell,And all the nations that forget God.
    Quite consistent with the idea that hell is created by men.

    Psalm 55:15
    Let death seize them;Let them go down alive into hell, For wickedness is in their dwellings and among them.


    Psalm 139:8
    If I ascend into heaven, You are there;If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
    Apparently if hell is defined by the absence of God then it cannot be in the sense of a place where God is not present. Thus if hell is defined by the absence of God then it is a matter of the state of the person in hell like an inability to perceive God.

    Proverbs 5:5
    Her feet go down to death, Her steps lay hold of hell.
    Proverbs 7:27
    Her house is the way to hell, Descending to the chambers of death.
    Proverbs 9:18
    But he does not know that the dead are there, That her guests are in the depths of hell.
    all speaking of a "loose" woman

    Proverbs 15:11
    Hell and Destruction are before the LORD; So how much more the hearts of the sons of men.
    seems to be speaking of possibility of disaster always being in front of us as part of a choice that have to make all the time

    Proverbs 15:24
    The way of life winds upward for the wise, That he may turn away from hell below.
    again seems to about a choice we have of different paths for our life

    Proverbs 23:14
    You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.
    speaking of parental discipline

    Proverbs 27:20
    Hell and Destruction are never full; So the eyes of man are never satisfied.
    speaking of temptation

    Isaiah 14:9
    Hell from beneath is excited about you, To meet you at your coming; It stirs up the dead for you, All the chief ones of the earth; It has raised up from their thrones All the kings of the nations.
    Speaking of God's sovereignty over the nations and human rulers of the earth

    Ezekiel 31:15-17
    “Thus says the Lord GOD: ‘In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
    God's message to Pharoah

    Ezekiel 32:21-27
    The strong among the mighty Shall speak to him out of the midst of hell With those who help him: ‘ They have gone down, They lie with the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’ ... They do not lie with the mighty Who are fallen of the uncircumcised, Who have gone down to hell with their weapons of war; They have laid their swords under their heads, But their iniquities will be on their bones, Because of the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
    lamentation to raise over Pharoah

    Amos 9:2
    Though they dig into hell, From there My hand shall take them; Though they climb up to heaven, From there I will bring them down;
    Hell as a place that people go by their own effort, but from which God can rescue them.

    Habakkuk 2:5
    Indeed, because he transgresses by wine, He is a proud man, And he does not stay at home. Because he enlarges his desire as hell, And he is like death, and cannot be satisfied, He gathers to himself all nations And heaps up for himself all peoples.
    in other translation the word is "grave".

    Matthew 5:22
    But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.
    Simply warning of danger that is in a certain type of behavior.

    Matthew 5:29-30 (like Mark 9:43)
    If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
    Matthew 18:9 (Mark 9:45-47)
    And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
    The meaning of "hell" in these passages is not important to the suppositional meaning of the passages because the meaning would be practically the same if (just) the word "fire" were used.

    Matthew 10:28
    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
    This passage makes a tangible link between the idea of "hell" and the death/destruction of the soul/spirit. If the soul/spirit is eternal (as other passages like 1 Cor 15 declare) then this death/destruction does not represent a termination of the soul's existence. Instead what is highlighted is the numerous times the Bible talks about two kinds of death (like in Matthew 8:22).

    Matthew 23:15
    “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
    This is a very different usage of the word -- talking about type of character or lineage, which connects with John 8:44 about being "of your father the devil."


    Matthew 23:33
    Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
    This indeed sounds like punishment but that does not mean that this is literally the case, because often the natural consequences are talked about as if there were a kind of punishment.

    Luke 12:5
    But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
    Yes here we have the gun waving extortionist God in all its gory. So the literal minded fundamentalist believes in this sort of thing, just as he believes he is descended from a golem of dust and a golem of flesh. But I believe that this simply expresses the very real wrath of God and his promise to the aflicted and abused that their desire for justice WILL be satisfied by God's perfect justice. BUT I believe that this perfect justice consists of suffering the natural and logical consequences of ones choices.

    James 3:6
    And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell.
    refering to how the tongue can be guided the forces of evil and destruction

    2 Peter 2:4
    For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
    again speaking of how the wrath of God cannot be escaped and how justice will be served
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    punarmusiko

    So my way or go to hell is free choice. OK

    Regards
    DL
    sure

    just like "drive on the right side of the road or lose your license" is free choice.
    Then so is come and be my slave or burn in hell.

    Free choice is great.

    Regards
    DL
    hehe

    with an attitude like that, it seems like you've already arrived

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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    punarmusiko

    So my way or go to hell is free choice. OK

    Regards
    DL
    sure

    just like "drive on the right side of the road or lose your license" is free choice.
    Then so is come and be my slave or burn in hell.

    Free choice is great.

    Regards
    DL
    hehe

    with an attitude like that, it seems like you've already arrived

    God is in hell?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
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  26. #25  
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    :tmm, G.I.A.M, why are you in the religion Sub-forum? To find answers, to insult religious people with blasphemy, or to turn religious people into agnostic or atheism?. Your words insult me and angers me.

    Since you hate God ( "the genocide maniac") and Christians, i guess hell will be a suitable place for you, At least been there, you will not meet any Christians or god.
    I think the lake of fire is much better for someone like you, rather than hell but that what i think .twisted:.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    :tmm, G.I.A.M, why are you in the religion Sub-forum? To find answers, to insult religious people with blasphemy, or to turn religious people into agnostic or atheism?. Your words insult me and angers me.

    Since you hate God ( "the genocide maniac") and Christians, i guess hell will be a suitable place for you, At least been there, you will not meet any Christians or god.
    I think the lake of fire is much better for someone like you, rather than hell but that what i think .twisted:.
    Do you have any Faith.

    “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
    Mark 16:14

    Show your faith hypocrite.

    Regards
    DL
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    Hell, like all religious concepts is man made.

    Those that believe in it believe that God would create an immoral concept or place.

    Any that are not fools should know that to sin for 120 yrs., andhave to suffer for 120000000000000000000000000+ yrs. in a hell would be the imposition of an immoral punishment.

    No self respecting God would create such a place.

    Regards
    DL
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    Do you have any Faith.

    “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
    Mark 16:14

    Show your faith hypocrite.

    Regards
    DL
    , Are you suggesting I don't belive in God and I a fool? You blasphemous fool call me a hypocrite. YOU! The guy with a snake avatar , who calls God a fool and a "genocidal maniac", CALL ME A HYPOCRITE! , perhaps, I was right , hell is a suitable place for someone like you.

    Regards
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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  30. #29  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
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    you will not meet any Christians or god.
    Son of Sam and Fred Phelps are going to heaven? Fuck... Whats the quickest way to hell because if they are headed to heaven, I want nothing to do with that place.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Do you have any Faith.

    “And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
    Mark 16:14

    Show your faith hypocrite.

    Regards
    DL
    , Are you suggesting I don't belive in God and I a fool? You blasphemous fool call me a hypocrite. YOU! The guy with a snake avatar , who calls God a fool and a "genocidal maniac", CALL ME A HYPOCRITE! , perhaps, I was right , hell is a suitable place for someone like you.

    Regards
    When you can't show your faith then rant.

    Good I hit your hypocritical nerve faithless one.

    Regards
    DL
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    Greatest, what exactly is your point? Mckain and pular have brought up the view that Hell isn't a construct of God as Hell is nothing more than the existence we create for ourselves if choose to be away from God. In short, Hell is a punishment only in the sense that we create it for ourselves and have to exist with out decision. Yet you seem to ignore that idea and keep bringing up the idea that Hell is created by God to punish people for an eternity. So are you actually listening or do you just want to keep spouting the kiddie-illogical version of hell?
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    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Greatest, what exactly is your point? Mckain and pular have brought up the view that Hell isn't a construct of God as Hell is nothing more than the existence we create for ourselves if choose to be away from God.
    I tend to argue mostly with Fundamentals and do develop knee jerk reactions on occasion. let me change mind set.

    To chose to be away from God, one must first believe in God. If one does not believe then there is nothing to move away from.

    If God and hell was a belief then only someone who is insane would chose hell over God.


    In short, Hell is a punishment only in the sense that we create it for ourselves and have to exist with out decision.
    I agree in part.
    What we create is consequences for our actions. These are not ever lasting, although the memory of it, I hope, is never lost because it is a lesson learned.

    Yet you seem to ignore that idea and keep bringing up the idea that Hell is created by God to punish people for an eternity.
    When arguing from the Fundamentalist point of view, my best weapon, so to speak is to use his own beliefs against him. He must realize the silliness of his own words before he can realize that they are silly.

    So are you actually listening or do you just want to keep spouting the kiddie-illogical version of hell?
    I like to keep things as simple as possible and I do not know if you have noticed, there is a plethora of different belief systems out here and I aim for the Fundamentals because I know that Fundamentals all hurt their parent religions. I am a Religionist myself and do not want Secularists to rule without the moral guidance of Religionists. Secularists are already winning the hearts of men faster than Religionists are, mostly because of Fundamentalists.

    I also tend to have a poor memory for individual posters and sometimes forget which mindset I am speaking to. I do not and cannot always take the time to go back and re-read to find his exact mind set.

    If my own mind set is in attack mode, shall we say, after discussions with Fundamentals for a while, it sometimes caries over to some poor medium or cold believer and when it does and it is caught, I certainly am quick to apologize.

    Being prolific and sometimes busy does not help.

    Regards
    DL
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  34. #33  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Greatest, what exactly is your point? Mckain and pular have brought up the view that Hell isn't a construct of God as Hell is nothing more than the existence we create for ourselves if choose to be away from God. In short, Hell is a punishment only in the sense that we create it for ourselves and have to exist with out decision. Yet you seem to ignore that idea and keep bringing up the idea that Hell is created by God to punish people for an eternity. So are you actually listening or do you just want to keep spouting the kiddie-illogical version of hell?
    GIA is on a crusade against archy's sort of Christianity, which with its literal interpretation of the Bible has exactly this "kiddie-illogical version of hell" (from Luke 12:5). It is clear that archy, in fact, represents a sector of people that identify their anti-science irrational cult with Christianity and there are areas in North America where they are a dominant social force. GIA's persistent and unending argument is that this sort of christianity is not just illogical but morally depraved. That is an exaggeration but I do think their ethics based on divine relativism is morally impoverished.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by KomradRed
    Greatest, what exactly is your point? Mckain and pular have brought up the view that Hell isn't a construct of God as Hell is nothing more than the existence we create for ourselves if choose to be away from God. In short, Hell is a punishment only in the sense that we create it for ourselves and have to exist with out decision. Yet you seem to ignore that idea and keep bringing up the idea that Hell is created by God to punish people for an eternity. So are you actually listening or do you just want to keep spouting the kiddie-illogical version of hell?
    GIA is on a crusade against archy's sort of Christianity, which with its literal interpretation of the Bible has exactly this "kiddie-illogical version of hell" (from Luke 12:5). It is clear that archy, in fact, represents a sector of people that identify their anti-science irrational cult with Christianity and there are areas in North America where they are a dominant social force. His persistent and unending argument is that this sort of christianity is not just illogical but morally depraved. That is an exaggeration but I do think their ethics based on divine relativism is morally impoverished.
    Thanks for that.

    My apologetic remark of losing track is proven by you. If I would have back tracked instead of thinking that my usual aggression had put me off the mark then I would have responded with my usual. I do need to humble myself on occasion though because I know myself to be more aggressive in debate instead of what I should probably be, assertive. It is a fine line and I tend to fall more into aggression. I do try to rein myself in but alas.

    Regards
    DL
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