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Thread: christians, muslims? both jews imo.

  1. #1 christians, muslims? both jews imo. 
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    imo, christians, muslims and jews all worship the same god.
    all they really disagree on is how to worship this god.
    you have the liberal moderate christian view(and some fundie views)
    and then there's the deeply fundie way of the jews and muslims.

    when the deeply fundamental forces took over islam, it was basically a downwards spiral for muslim societies, ending with the fall of the ottoman empire.

    on the other hand, the more secular viewpoints of christian society lead to a technological revolution never witnessed before in human history.


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    Deja - All secular scientists are wrong because they don't have God in the equation. You are going to have to back up your claim. Oh and if your claim doesn't have God in the equation, it is automatically wrong..


    Err, sorry.. I am starting to adapt Archaeologists philosophy.


    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Deja - All secular scientists are wrong because they don't have God in the equation. You are going to have to back up your claim. Oh and if your claim doesn't have God in the equation, it is automatically wrong..


    Err, sorry.. I am starting to adapt Archaeologists philosophy.
    Oh no! You need serious medical help from psychologist. In the meantime I strongly reccommend that you obstain from reading any more of his posts.

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    You know there are liberal Jews and Muslims too, they aren't required to be fundamentalist...
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    "when the deeply fundamental forces took over islam, it was basically a downwards spiral for muslim societies, ending with the fall of the ottoman empire."

    Fundamentalist interpretations of the Quran did not lead to the fall of the Ottoman Empire.

    The Ottoman Empire's power was built on the back of the Janissary corps, Sipahes, and Timariot system.

    The Janissaries, for those who haven't heard of them, were a body of slave soldiers owned and loyal to the Ottoman sultan (later Padishah and Caliph). The Jannisary corps was originally established since most Ottoman warriors were horsemen and therefor considered it demeaning to fight on foot. Recruits were drawn from the children of Christians living in the Balkans, and although there are cases where children were taken forcibly, many families also willingly gave up their children as Jannisaries grew to be powerful and influential people in the Ottoman state. The Jannisaries were renowned for their use of firearms, discipline, and ferocity. The Jannisaries proved to be such an effective force in the Ottoman army that they were continuously expanded by various sultans, eventually becoming the single largest contingent in the Ottoman army. During the Ottoman Empire's decline, from the late mid 17th through 18th centuries, the Jannisaries became to the Ottomans what the Praetorian Guard was to Rome; corrupt and capable of removing Sultans at will. Eventually an Ottoman sultan, cant remember who, created a military force independent of the Jannisaries and defeated the corps, disbanding it.

    The Sipahes were the feudal cavalry of the Ottoman Empire. A medium cavalry that was equipped with light armor, bows, sabers, and firearms, the Ottoman military at its peak could call on a large number of Sipahes to support their armies in the field. The Sipahes, however, were still a feudal aristocracy and under later Ottoman Emperors managed to gain many rights and privileges at the expense of the Ottoman government. I think there were multiple revolts by the feudal lords of Anatolia against the Ottoman imperial government during the late 17th and 18th century.

    The Timariots were irregular feudal soldiers that were established in many frontier areas of the Ottoman empire. When ottoman generals or monarchs conquered a new stretch of territory one of the first priorities was to award land to the soldiers who had fought and to let the land owners who had not fought against the ottomans keep their land. In return, the Ottoman government expected such soldiers to raze a number of warriors with them and supply their own equipment when responding to a call to martial by the Ottoman military. Such a system allowed the Ottomans to raze large provincial armies quickly and functioned similarly to the Byzantine theme.

    What all these systems have in common was their failure to adapt to the changing nature of European militaries. During and after the 30 years war European militaries began adopting many of the practices and techniques we associate with the Enlightenment; Drill, line formations, mobile artillery batteries, regimental systems, and draconian discipline. Ottoman Emperors frequently called upon European officers to train their soldiers and officers in European tactics and techniques, but the Ottoman military never really took the to changes and the Ottoman loss of the Second Siege of Vienna and its later defeats at the hands of Austrians and rebels can be attributed to the Ottoman military's inability to develop accordingly.

    Of course I'm only concentrating on the military aspect here, as economic and political problems arose. As European nations began finding alternate ways to India and the East, trade along the silk road diminished ottoman fortunes. During the 18th and 19th centuries the rising tide of nationalism in Europe spread to the Ottoman Empire. People like the Greeks and Bulgars started wars of Independance while the Pashah of Egypt became more independent of Constantinople.

    In the end, the death blow to the Ottoman Empire was the First World War, in the same way the German Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and Russian Empire passed into history.

    Btw, Constantinople was not renamed Istanbul until the reforms of Ataturk, post WW1.



    on the other hand, the more secular viewpoints of christian society lead to a technological revolution never witnessed before in human history.



    Indeed sir, the industrial revolutions are amazing, but there is plenty of evidence to suggest that while a technological revolution like ours never developed elsewhere in history, there are periods where states have participated in Industrial revolutions, two examples being Rome and China. Rome, for instance, created massive foundries throughout its Empire for the purpose of refining metals like iron, copper, tin, lead, silver, and gold. Hispania was torn up by hydraulic mining techniques as Romans, using techniques discovered before htem but never implemented on the same scale. Rome was voracious in its appetite for gold, silver, and lead, lead being used to construct storage containers for water and lining the Empire's great aqueducts. China is famous for having a large number of extremely efficient blast furnaces that produced extremely high quality steel. Han China made extensive use of such steel for equipment used by both soldiers and farmers.
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    Oh no! You need serious medical help from psychologist. In the meantime I strongly reccommend that you obstain from reading any more of his posts.

    Repeat after me... 100 times.

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    I do not need a lobotomy.

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    :P :P :P
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    #1. christians and Jews worship the same God though the jewish people reject Jesus as His son and messiah and are still looking for their savior.

    #2. God and allah are NOT the same. just a cursory glance at the Bible and the Quran will tell you how different they are.

    #3. God of the Bible is THE God, Creator of all things and so on. allah was a small minor god in an arab pantheon, and was made famous by mohammad.

    #5. the God of the Bible exists, allah does not.

    ***2 good references: The History of the Arab People By Hourani & The Truth About Mohhamad' {i forget the author's name at the moment}
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    #1. christians and Jews worship the same God though the jewish people reject Jesus as His son and messiah and are still looking for their savior.

    #2. God and allah are NOT the same. just a cursory glance at the Bible and the Quran will tell you how different they are.

    #3. God of the Bible is THE God, Creator of all things and so on. allah was a small minor god in an arab pantheon, and was made famous by mohammad.

    #5. the God of the Bible exists, allah does not.

    ***2 good references: The History of the Arab People By Hourani & The Truth About Mohhamad' {i forget the author's name at the moment}
    Archeologist, you can't even get basic historical facts right either.

    Allah was certainly an Arabic word that existed prior to Islam that was used in paganistic religions. However, the Allah of the Islamic faith is most certainly derived from the same Judeo-Christian concept of God. Arabic paganism is not at all the same as Islam.

    In fact, arabic speaking Christians and Jews also use Allah to refer to God. The Maltese word for God is Alla, and they are all Catholics.

    Certainly, Islam has a different conception of God from that of Christianity, but it is essentially the same God.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Allah was certainly an Arabic word that existed prior to Islam that was used in paganistic religions. However, the Allah of the Islamic faith is most certainly derived from the same Judeo-Christian concept of God. Arabic paganism is not at all the same as Islam.

    In fact, arabic speaking Christians and Jews also use Allah to refer to God. The Maltese word for God is Alla, and they are all Catholics.
    We have already seen this difficulty he has in dealing with the fact that english is only one language in a world full of different languages with different words for the same thing. What can you expect of a magical Christian to whom "Jesus" is a power word and a spell - if you don't pronounce the magic word in the right way then guess he figures it doesn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Certainly, Islam has a different conception of God from that of Christianity, but it is essentially the same God.
    Arch only believes in the god of his pocket, the tool he keeps in there to pull out and use on people for manipulation and making himself feel more important. He doesn't believe in a God out there beyond his control that can speak to anyone that He wants to. His pocket god is a construction of rhetoric and so if the rhetoric is different and serves a different power structure then that is a contruction of his rivals for power.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    #1. christians and Jews worship the same God though the jewish people reject Jesus as His son and messiah and are still looking for their savior.

    #2. God and allah are NOT the same. just a cursory glance at the Bible and the Quran will tell you how different they are.

    #3. God of the Bible is THE God, Creator of all things and so on. allah was a small minor god in an arab pantheon, and was made famous by mohammad.

    #5. the God of the Bible exists, allah does not.

    ***2 good references: The History of the Arab People By Hourani & The Truth About Mohhamad' {i forget the author's name at the moment}
    Archeologist, you can't even get basic historical facts right either.

    Allah was certainly an Arabic word that existed prior to Islam that was used in paganistic religions. However, the Allah of the Islamic faith is most certainly derived from the same Judeo-Christian concept of God. Arabic paganism is not at all the same as Islam.

    In fact, arabic speaking Christians and Jews also use Allah to refer to God. The Maltese word for God is Alla, and they are all Catholics.

    Certainly, Islam has a different conception of God from that of Christianity, but it is essentially the same God.
    noah is in the qu'ran
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
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    Archeologist, you can't even get basic historical facts right either.
    again you would be wrong so go and read the books then get back to me.

    just because the word NOW is used that way does it mean that it was used that way in the beginning.

    Islam has a different conception of God from that of Christianity, but it is essentially the same God.
    THE LAST TIME, they are NOT the same God. obviously you are not a christian and do not recognize the difference
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    THE LAST TIME, they are NOT the same God. obviously you are not a christian and do not recognize the difference
    Just because you can't spell ecumenical is no reason to take this position.
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    and actually, arch, Allah is the arabic word from THAT time period that means God, carried through and applied today as the word for God, he means BACK THEN not RIGHT NOW. They are the same. the difference is in the profits, not the gods. get YOUR facts right Arch.
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
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    I know a couple of Muslims , most of them agree judo-Christian god is their god, but cannot worship him without getting through Mohammed, Christians= Jesus . Jewish people still waiting for their Saviour to wipe out their enemies and avenge his wrath on the earth.

    ARC THE translation for Allah= GOD, surely you must have done religious studies at period 4? in my case GSCE.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Islam has a different conception of God from that of Christianity, but it is essentially the same God.
    THE LAST TIME, they are NOT the same God. obviously you are not a christian and do not recognize the difference
    Islam sees Jesus as a prophet, and has origins from the same faith (judaism), where originally Muslims and Christians worshiped the same god. Over time, difference is in opinion and interpretation have seperated them, specifically regarding Mohammed (PBUH) and Jesus. So, although they see him in different ways, slightly, Christians and Muslims basically have the same god.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    you people really need to read the books and learn how to research:

    A History of the Arab World pg. 14

    " The name used for God was 'allah' which was already inuse for one of the local gods (it is NOW used by arabic speaking jews and christians as the name of God).

    allah and God are not one and the same
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    So what you are telling us is that the "old" Allah and God are not the same. However, what they call God in the Arab culture is now Allah. Thus, the NEW Allah name and God are the same God.
    It's like having multiple people named Mike. I'm sure there can be multiple Gods named Allah or Yahweh. They are the same God though. The one that Islam worships and the one that Christians worship are the same God... Your passage just told us that.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

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    Allah is not "a name". Ilah means gods, Allah means God [emphasising that there is only one]

    " The name used for God was 'allah' which was already inuse for one of the local gods (it is NOW used by arabic speaking jews and christians as the name of God).
    Gibberish

    Imagine in English:

    The name used for God was God which was already in use for one of the local gods.
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    No doubt that all they are closely related religions built upon the same god concept which starts with Abraham, hence the common reference to all three at the religions of "the book." Jesus even figures a major role in the Qur'an, he's one of gods respected messengers.
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    Gibberish
    not at all but it certainly shows your uintelligence/.

    Jesus even figures a major role in the Qur'an, he's one of gods respected messengers.
    SO? this means nothing and contradicts the Bible and demotes Jesus which is heresy and sin.

    Thus, the NEW Allah name and God are the same God.
    no, they are NOT the same God. do a comparison and you will see.
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    Arabs, like Jews, and some Christians, consider the name of God, Yahweh or Jahova or Yod heh wod heh, or however it was actually pronounced back then, to be too perfect to be uttered. Allah, just like Lord in the king james bible is a replacement, do you worship "lord" or do you worship "Yahweh"

    the only reason He is called "God" is because the people that call Him "God" don't believe in multiple Gods. For example, Hindus don't say "God," maybe they do but It probably refers to Krishna(the god of gods) if they do, they call god's by particular names. Just as greeks would say "I worship God" this would cause confusion. The only reason monotheists say "God" is as a statement that there is only one God.

    I think, that to use the name of God, Yahweh, is too much incentive to wonder if there are other Gods. That is why most people are reluctant to say Yahweh, even though that is what they refer to when they say God.

    For those of you who say "Jesus" is God:

    Jesus literally means fire/sun/son of Yahweh when you break down the Hebrew syllables.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    \
    no, they are NOT the same God. do a comparison and you will see.
    Billah, ya habibi, inta ma't kallim al arabiya wa kallim kullu waskh.

    PS, stop talking gibberish.

    Comparison:

    "Those who believe, and those who follow Jewish law, and [also] Christians and Sabeans, whoever believes in Allah and in the Last Day and does good deeds, they shall have their reward before their Lord, and there shall be no fear upon them, nor shall they grieve.” Quran 2:62

    edit: I should note that this revelation was before the two Nicean councils where Christ was declared divine and idol worship became the norm of Christianity.
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    you are the only one talking gibberish. do a comparison and you will see that allah is not the same as God. a word refering to God does not make them the same.
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    Since archaeologist's God is an artificial construct based upon his peculiar interpretation of the Bible and his definition of Christianity is a distorted and inappropriately restricted one, then he is wholly correct: the God of his version of Christianity is not the same as Allah. Indeed it's not the same as any other god, or God out there.
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    Yes people like arch that make their own pseudo-christian cult will tend to rewrite the Bible to make it agree with their legalistic dogmas, but a little investigation uncovers the truth:

    Kenneth J. Thomas, “Allah in Translations of the Bible,” Technical Papers from the Bible Translator 52, no.3 (July 2001), the official journal of the United Bible Society.

    “Christians have used the word Allah from pre-Islamic times, and Allah has been used continuously in Arabic translations of the Bible from the earliest known versions in the eighth century to this day. One Arabic translation of the New Testament using the word may even be pre-Islamic.”
    But of course we can expect that arch's cult may well have rewritten their own version of an Arabic Bible substituting the name Yahweh for God. This is typical of their brazen rewriting of God's word to suit themselves because this is not of course a correct translation. The word "God" and the name "Yahweh" are not the same thing. This in fact sounds exactly like something the Jehova Witnesses might do -- replacing the word "God" everywhere with the name "Jehova".


    In any case this sort of behavior PROVES that they are a Gnostic cult rather than Christian, believing they are saved by a secret knowledge rather than by God -> namely by having their correct doctrines.

    I am a Trinitarian Christian but some of the arguments I have seen for the Allah of Islam not being the same God because of the lack of Trinitarian belief is really laughable. The doctrine of the Trinity isn't even in the Bible and the logical conclusion from such "hoisting by their own petard" argumentation is that these crackpots don't believe in the God of the Bible at all.

    Thus in order to maintain my assertion that Trinitarian doctrine does not create a different God than is found in the Bible I must repudiate the self-contradictory rhetoric of arch's extremist cult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    you are the only one talking gibberish. do a comparison and you will see that allah is not the same as God. a word refering to God does not make them the same.
    Sir, the word is referring to Yahweh, God is referring to Yahweh, Lord is refering to Yahweh, Allah is referring to Yahweh. and as I said before Jesus literally means Yahweh's son/sun/fire/spirit.

    Maybe you are justifying it by seeing the political rivalries, but when you break it down and talk to these people, they are following the same god, the same principles, the same laws, the same faith, the same origins, moving towards the same end.

    You saying they are following a different God is hypocritical. Just as you tell athiests not to use God doing bad things as an excuse to believe God doesn't exist, you are saying they believe in a different God, which requires there to be multiple gods, yet you say there is only one God.

    There is only one God but political, social and religious loyalty don't make you one of his creatures. Only He has that power, and His power transcends our boundaries.
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    Uniting all world religions is something that Baha'i is trying to do.

    My memory is a bit fuzzy but I'm pretty sure their roots are in Sikhism and Hinduism which seem to be polythiestic religions, but they are in fact monotheistic religions. All the demi gods are emminations from Krishna, the One true God.

    Just as the 7 Elohim are emminations of Yahweh in Mystical Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

    The Baha'i theology states that all religions, and all peoples, even atheists and satanists I would presume fit or call them hypocrites, are part of a universal religious evolution. That at times the evolution accelerates, and these periods are marked with the life of a prophet or the writing of a religious text, the building of new temples, and the collapse of old out dated temples.
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    let me be MORE SPECIFIC:

    the allah of islam IS NOT the same as the GOD of the BIBLE. there are so many differences that any thought their being the same is laughable.

    and as I SAID previously, just because a word is used to refer to God doesn't mean that the two are one and the same.

    you se the lord's name in vain whenever you are angry and now that word has a meaning of being a curse does that make cursing equal to God? of course not yet people have been taking the Lord's name in vain longer than there has been islam or christianity.

    stop taking the easy route and learn to distinguish between applications without lumping things together..

    NOWif you want to learn something, Ishmeal, the father of the arab people (not muslims) had a mother who encountered an angel tus would be versed in the reality and such reality would be passed down until the the revisionists got hold of power and started to pervert what was taught to fit whatthey wanted to believe.

    Mohammad had NO such experience, he did NOT have a mother who had an encounter with the real deal and he was not versed in the truth. HE took a LOCAL god and re-created it into his image and FORCED that god upon all his people (where is verzen with his anger over these people being FORCED into a belief they may not want).

    AT NO TIME is the GOD OF THE BIBLE the same as allah of islam. I do not care what the word may refer or partially mean. they are NOT the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Uniting all world religions is something that Baha'i is trying to do.

    My memory is a bit fuzzy but I'm pretty sure their roots are in Sikhism and Hinduism which seem to be polythiestic religions, but they are in fact monotheistic religions. All the demi gods are emminations from Krishna, the One true God.
    That is incorrect the Bahai originate from the the Islamic cultural sphere in 1842 Persia (Iran). The leader in 1844 "the Bab" (or gate) in the tradition of Shi'a Islam, followed by a messianic leader Bahaullha who was persecuted and banished by the Islamic religious establishment.


    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    The Baha'i theology states that all religions, and all peoples, even atheists and satanists I would presume fit or call them hypocrites, are part of a universal religious evolution. That at times the evolution accelerates, and these periods are marked with the life of a prophet or the writing of a religious text, the building of new temples, and the collapse of old out dated temples.
    Yes I am quite familiar with what the Bahai are attempting. There are similar unification movements coming from the other religous spheres. Just as Bahai reaches out from the Islamic sphere to unite all the religion, the Hari Krishna did the same from the Hindu sphere and the Moonies did from the Korean christian sphere. But the result was the same, the theology with which they tried to make such a unification just became the basis of a new religion. In the of the Hari Krishna, however, I think that they were eventually absorbed back into Hinduism, which always was a pretty pluralistic religion in the first place. The Bahai are unique in the extent to which they have adopted an evolutionary world view.
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    I don't like Baha'i especially because they preach helping the poor, yet they have these outrageous temples. It, like most who preach unity at that level, seems to have the purpose of peace, but resonates too much like greed and power.

    "the allah of islam IS NOT the same as the GOD of the BIBLE. there are so many differences that any thought their being the same is laughable."

    I thoroughly understand what you are saying, I don't have to agree. Repeating it will not make me agree.

    I understand that Mohammad may have been a fraud, just as I understand that the Council of Nicaea may not have actually cared about religious truth but instead made the bible what it is for political reasons.

    What makes God, God, Is not the name you call Him by, but the Faith.

    I will digress by saying that the differences between the God of Islam and the Allah of the Bible are no more extreme than the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    What makes God, God, Is not the name you call Him by, but the Faith
    you would be wrong. God is God because of who He is not because people have 'faith'. even if no one had faith in Him he would still be God of the Bible who cares for his people and creation. he would be greatly saddened by the rejection but he doesn't change.

    I will digress by saying that the differences between the God of Islam and the Allah of the Bible are no more extreme than the God of the OT and the God of the NT.
    andi would disagree (yes i caught your word play)
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    shucks archaeologist you caught me
    "you would be wrong. God is God because of who He is not because people have 'faith'"
    well you would be wrong in interpreting what I meant, allow me to explain. Faith doesn't come from people, faith comes from God. God is what God is, Faith doesn't make God I agree, but if you are experiencing True Faith, you are experiencing True God. It is Faith that gives the human their idea of God, not the badgering of evangelists. Evangelists have their place, I believe it is in the streets where the devotion can be seen heard and felt not just read.

    "The Tao that can be trodden is not the enduring and
    unchanging Tao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and
    unchanging name."

    "Always without desire we must be found,
    If its deep mystery we would sound;
    But if desire always within us be,
    Its outer fringe is all that we shall see."

    "the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and
    conveys his instructions without the use of speech."
    Dick, be Frank.

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