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About LinkBacksI have just recently watched the zeitgeist film and it has some very powerful ideas and theory.
I would really appreciate some opinions on it from both sides of the coin, "Arguement." I just don't know what to believe.
April 19th, 2009, 07:17 PM
I have just recently watched the zeitgeist film and it has some very powerful ideas and theory.
I would really appreciate some opinions on it from both sides of the coin, "Arguement." I just don't know what to believe.
wow, i just saw that a couple weeks ago. another teacher downloaded it for me.
for the most part it is just conspiracy theorists gone wild though there are some really good points made by the film.
i did not enjoy the video portion of the film as it was too distracting and not pertinent to their point.
I watched it when it first came out, loved it! I have to say I tell everyone I can to watch it. If only to open other minds to the fact that there are other ways to see things in life. I also highly recommend "The God Who Wasn't There".
Whether it is true or not you should understand why it would have practically no impact on the belief of a Christian. The Christian believes that the Christ represents the central event in human history prophesied and forshadowed by many events so the Christian would only consider these parallels that the film claims to exist as God's way of pointing everyone to that central event and would certainly not credit the absurd claim that Jesus was not an historical person or that the gospel is just a fabrication from previous myths.
However since I believe that God wants people to be completely free not to believe in Him because a belief in Him is not of universal benefit to all people, then if these parallels make it easier for some people to dismiss Christianity and deny the existence of God then that is according to plan as well.
I had to read that twice before I understood the point (not your fault, mine). We as humans are impressionable just look at society... What we are taught by our parents, society, media etc. from a young age about what is right and what is wrong. From a psychological standpoint most have lost the ability decipher the code of logic. We as a society have gone and created a society in which does not accept us, including religion.
this contradicts the scripture that says 'God wishes that all men would be saved'However since I believe that God wants people to be completely free not to believe in Him because a belief in Him is not of universal benefit to all people, then if these parallels make it easier for some people to dismiss Christianity and deny the existence of God then that is according to plan as well.
Watch this less stressful clip 7000000000 which is similar to the Zeitgist film except it is just 6 mins and no commentary.
Yes, God does want all human beings to be saved, but what I said DOES NOT contradict this. When Jesus explains why He speaks in parables in Matt 13:10-15 what He says might also seem that it contradicts this in precisely the same way.Originally Posted by archaeologist
People are not saved by any knowledge given to human beings. They are saved by God according to His knowledge and His understanding and His timetable. Thus God gives to each what is best for him to know and understand at that time. Unlike human beings God puts our well being first, ahead of everything else. If it does not seem like it at times, it is because we do not understand what is best."Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And He answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. for to him who has will more be given, and he who has not even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
Yes, God does want all human beings to be saved, but not all human beings are saved. This is because God is not the magic man sugar daddy who gives us whatever we want. He is bound by the limits of logical consistency and one consequence is that our salvation requires us to make a choice. So even though salvation is offered to all as a free gift, not all accept that gift.
your post excludes somuch and puts the responsibility of man's destruction upon God not humans. you would be wrong as manhas free choice to decide and if they didn't God could not judge them in the end nor send them to hell for by your logic men are innocent and God is guilty.
you also ignore rom. 3:23 and 6:23 among other verses which puts the resp. on man not God to make the choice. plus you would be saying that man is not free to make his choice and that would contradict scriputre and make God a liar... and down the same road we go...
also you ignore the work of the devil thus are not using all the 'data' to come to your conclusion.
to answer the OP, the film mixes some truth with conspiracy theories while offering no proof for the majrity of its claims.
having a guy no one has heard about saying governments are being taken out on purpose IS NOT EVIDENCE, it is only hearsay, which most of that film employs.
It is difficult to even comprehend that archie is responding to what I said since his reply seems to be written as a response to someone saying something completely different. Is this because he is talking to someone else or because he did not read past a couple of sentences again?
Incorrect. My post puts the responsibility for man's destruction 100% upon themselves and 0% upon God. It is only man's salvation that is 0% due to themselves and 100% due to the work of God.
Correct. And that is why I said, "our salvation requires us to make a choice. So even though salvation is offered to all as a free gift, not all accept that gift."
Nothing in Romans (my favorite epistle) or John (my favorite gospel) escapes my notice let alone is ignored by me (the epistles of 1 Cor and the gospel of Matt come in very close seconds, in the old testament my favorites are Genesis, Isaiha and Job).
That is absolutely correct. Christ died FOR ALL. God loves ALL. God does the work to save ALL. But our salvation requires a choice on our part and it is that choice that makes the difference, but only in regards to result and not in regards to merit.
Quite correct. I do not listen to the devil at all. That is not data but lies. The devil is of no significance except to those who listen to him but more importanly to those who try to pass the responsibility for the evil in their lives on him.
i thought MM was the moderator of this forum? why is skin walker usurping MM's responsibilities?
I am only the moderator of the religion subsection. SkinWalker is the administrator of the whole forum. We moderators lend a helping hand but SkinWalker does all the real work.
so they have no confidence in your abilities. okay.
LOL
Poor archie...
LOL
Correction, "mythical" events.
Is that the extent of your rebuttal? HA!the absurd claim that Jesus was not an historical person or that the gospel is just a fabrication from previous myths.
No I did not claim that it was a rebuttal but only made the rather obvious observation that Christians would not give any serious consideration to such an hypothesis. I would say that the evidence that Jesus is an historical person, is as overwhelming as the the evidence for evolution.
Now, the rather amusing question to ask you is this: Which approach are you going to take? That I am not a Christian and therefore represent a non-Christian opinion that the person Jesus of Nazareth really existed, OR that I am a Christian and therefore that it is a tautology that I would believe that this was an historical person? LOL I predict that you will take, as usual, the most question begging approach, that anyone who believes that Jesus actually existed must automatically be considered biased. LOL
humans are actually hardwired to be gullible. its an evolutionary adaptation,
so that we can more easily learn what is passed on from parent to child.
its probably partly why children learn so much faster than older people.
young children never second-guess what they are taught, grownups however tend to second guess every bit of information that is passed onto them, and the real old farts belives nothing is true.
they did an experiment with chimps and humans, with a see through box with a hole on the top, where a person first put a stick in through the hole in the top, which hit a floor, and did nothing at all. they then put the stick which ejected a piece of candy / food.
the 3-4 year old human children mimicked the whole process exactly, even though they could plainly see poking the stick through the top hole did nothing.
the chimps however went straight for what worked.
and thats pretty much what i think religion is. you're poking the stick through the top hole, it does nothing. but you keep poking in the belief that it helps you get your reward in the afterlife.
oh, puuullleeeaaassseee...humans are actually hardwired to be gullible. its an evolutionary adaptation,
kudos
Yes I agree. This is one of archies more insightful comments.kudos
You actually took that out of context. So did everyone who responded to you.
What he was stating is that children are like sponges. Their brain development is very fast and they learn very quickly. If a child is told that God exists, they will grow up usually believing in God. Same with Thor, Aphrodite, Loki, Yahweh, Allah, etc.
That is why if you are born in a specific culture then you will most likely be of that faith.
And if Christianity was the only way to get to heaven then God would be racist since he knows this fact that children will believe what they are told.
And if Christianity was the only way to get to heaven then God would be racist since he knows this fact that children will believe what they are told.
My thoughts exactly.....
What a bad comparison. Evolution evidence is overwhelming. The historical evidence for Jesus is sparse, but does exist. You might enlighten a few people by giving an example of the evidence.the rather obvious observation that Christians would not give any serious consideration to such an hypothesis. I would say that the evidence that Jesus is an historical person, is as overwhelming as the the evidence for evolution.
I do note that you lean on faith on one hand and claim evidence on the other hand. of course Christians are going to be close minded on this issue.
If there is evidence why claim faith?
I would also like to point out that, my posting here proves I exist, but it does not prove that I am magical in any way. Although I am
hehe. Got him there
Because I don't buy into your self-delusion that you don't operate on faith. There is blind faith and there is rational faith, and which of these you use is the real question. I don't claim or have any use for blind faith or the kind of self-delusion that archaeologist participates in. Science is one of the best examples of rational faith and its difference from religion is not the absence of faith but its objective methodology that does not have universal applicability, and of course what it puts its faith in. So I also have no use for the self-delusions of people that pretend that their beliefs are based on reason and objective evidence alone. We come to different conclusions on a few things because we start with different premises, and we start with unproven premises because we must. Science cannot exist without doing so and more importantly people cannot live their lives without doing so. So you make your choices and I make mine. But I will not credit dishonest arrogant delusions of self-superiority that your choices are better than mine.
does it? you are saying that you are a sleepy turtle who can communicate in english and type? or that such a creature exists in the animal kingdom?I would also like to point out that, my posting here proves I exist
not really, what i quoted was his thesis, the rest was his argument in favor of that thesis.You actually took that out of context. So did everyone who responded to you.
What he was stating is that children are like sponges
two things why you are wrong:And if Christianity was the only way to get to heaven then God would be racist since he knows this fact that children will believe what they are to
1. Jesus, not christianity, is the way to heaven and God.
2. God would not be a racist as children do not belong solely to just one nationality. all children have equal opportunity to believe. plus they grow up and learn that they can make other decisions.
i know for a fact that many children taught about God in christian homes, some who even graduated from bible college who leave the faith and stop believing in God, so your statement is without merit and made loosely.
That's a little pedantic of you. No, I am a 16 year old English male Human.
So, when we get down to it, christianity is a belief, that you may or may not believe in?
Wow, deep, deep stuff we're talking about
Don't think anyone will argue with you there.
except we do not know that and your persona could be a false creation to fool others. for all we know you are an 87year old fat women of african descent.That's a little pedantic of you. No, I am a 16 year old English male Human
posting here does not prove you exist, we have to accept your words by faith that you are telling the truth as any 'evidence' you provide could be manipulated to create an alter ego.
since we cannot see you actually type among other physical proofs needed to establishyour identity and existence.
much like God and the Bible. you have to take what he said about the past and himself by faith and use the little physical evidence we have to strengthen that faith. we then follow His commands and words BY faith though we get more evidence and help along the way via Christ and the Holy Spirit.
you do not have such help.
Yeah, you're right, I'm not real...
Wrong. Drowsy has me. I am his messiah... his son sent down from the stripper factory. In a sense, I am a savior...
I think you missed the irony of declaring humanity inevitably gullible and then going on about evolutionary adaptions (for which there is no evidence)You actually took that out of context. So did everyone who responded to you.
What he was stating is that children are like sponges. Their brain development is very fast and they learn very quickly. If a child is told that God exists, they will grow up usually believing in God. Same with Thor, Aphrodite, Loki, Yahweh, Allah, etc.
That is why if you are born in a specific culture then you will most likely be of that faith.
And if Christianity was the only way to get to heaven then God would be racist since he knows this fact that children will believe what they are told.
Do you believe in black people? White people? Asians? They are the "victims" of evolutionary adaptation. Don't give me that shit saying that there is no evidence. If evolution didn't exist then humans wouldn't be of various races. We would all have the same exact genetic structure. What really angers me is when ignorant individuals say that there is no evidence for evolution.
I take it you did miss the irony ... unless you have evidence that gullibility is an evidenced tool of evolution
What are you saying exacly?
He never said gullibility was based off of evolution. He simply stated that ideas evolve and change and how if a child will believe anything their parents say.
In my case archies comment just made me giggle uncontrollably. Part of the reason was that I tried several times to compose a response to dejawolf's post and failed to find any way of expressing what there was a about it bothered me. Then archie's comment just sort of seemed to hit the spot, so much so that I laugh every time I read it.I take it you did miss the irony ... unless you have evidence that gullibility is an evidenced tool of evolution
But I think punarmusiko is onto something here. Perhaps the irony is found in the guilability that is evidenced by those who make the theory of evolution into universal philosphy and theory of everything until we find them hoisting themselves by the own petard so to speak.
that is genetics NOT evolution. please prove evolution was responsible for the changes and while you are at it please prove it actually exists.
accordign to your argument, you have made a claim so the burdenof proof is upon you.
I was hoping to hear more on the other issues then about religion because I am curious to know what you all think beside the religion.
Do you believe that your genes can mutate and change? If not, how do you explain violet eyes? Violet eyes are violet because of mutated genes. Evolution is a series of mutated genes. Evolution deals with genetics and every geneticist will say that evolution is real.that is genetics NOT evolution. please prove evolution was responsible for the changes and while you are at it please prove it actually exists.
accordign to your argument, you have made a claim so the burdenof proof is upon you.
Here let me prove it for you.
If a parent with GG eyes mates with a person with BB eyes, then their child will be GB, GB, GB, GB. Since violet eyes are soo rare and only a handful of people have them, this violet eyes must go outside of this LAW of genetics. Since it is going outside of this law, that only leaves one option.. Mutation within the genetic structure. Now this person has violet eyes do to a mutation.
Make sense?
Now take that person who has a mutation and mate them with someone else.. That person has a change to adapt those violet eyes. (their child does) This gene keeps being passed down from parent to child. Eventually a new mutation takes place and that person gains another trait.
Now if a BAD mutation takes place that harms the person in question, they will be unlikely to mate and will die before they are able to pass on the bad genes.. Thus only good genes are more likely to be passed on. Does this make sense?
That is evolution through natural selection in laymans terms.
Can you expand on this? Can you tell us about some of these issues you see besides religion that you would be interested in hearing about?
Yes. Verzen can vouch for me, and I for him, so we both exist.Wrong. Drowsy has me. I am his messiah... his son sent down from the stripper factory. In a sense, I am a savior...
Oh, and by the way, we're extremely magical. But we don't like letting you see our magic
ignoring verzenand d.t., the film was a genuine conspiracy theory with a few truths mixed in to make it seem credible. if you noticed they did not verify the spokesman's identity and did not prove he was inbvolved or knew anything that took place inthose countries he claimed were 'hits' on government leaders.I was hoping to hear more on the other issues then about religion because I am curious to know what you all think beside the religion
as for the attackon hussein in iraq, that was bush jr. looking to finish daddy's war and gain his approval.
now religion was part of the movie and it was done so-so. at best all the movie will do is raise fear among people and let paranoia take root.
Oh I get it. Whenever someone proves that evolution is real, you ignore the speaker.. so in essence you ignore the people who inform you and are kind enough to grant you the knowledge we have. So you are proud of your ignorance and you refuse to listen to anyone who has evidence even when you demand the evidence yourself.
... *sigh*
not at all. you can't prove evolution true because it does not exist.
You dismiss us that easily? But we have irrefutable proof that we exist, and because we exist we can assure you that we are magical.
This explains so much, including penguins.
@ Verzen: What stupid and pointless things should we make people do in our name, then?
whatever...
Did you even read my reasoning? Or did you gloss over it without giving it a second thought? Everything I said was true. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that evolution is real. In fact, I have an IQ of about 136-139. People with a higher IQ tend to believe in Evolution while those with a lower IQ believe in God who created everything 6000 years ago.
Lets give multiple creatures wings.. and then to add insult to injury, lets prevent them from being able to fly! .. Oh wait, God beat us to that...You dismiss us that easily? But we have irrefutable proof that we exist, and because we exist we can assure you that we are magical.
This explains so much, including penguins.
@ Verzen: What stupid and pointless things should we make people do in our name, then?
You forgot about my ability to send strippers back in time to do my work...
Let's command that people have to kill each other sometimes, and also that they aren't allowed to kill each other, that'll be a laugh.
I wonder what would happen if we say that rape is immoral, but as long as it's a virgin its ok...
Tell them to be lazy on Sundays?
We can go on for a long time like this, but I suspect we'll end up in the trash can
Oh but there is a rule that we have to add... Shellfish is an abomination...
still does not make evolution true or correct.Did you even read my reasoning? Or did you gloss over it without giving it a second thought? Everything I said was true. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that evolution is real. In fact, I have an IQ of about 136-139. People with a higher IQ tend to believe in Evolution while those with a lower IQ believe in God who created everything 6000 years ago.
i am not the one taking this off topic.We can go on for a long time like this, but I suspect we'll end up in the trash can
Arch, that is not the proof that I supplied. I supplied the proof way back there.. Go look at back posts and read it and respond to it pls. Don't ignore it.
i ignore it as it is not on topic. the subject is the movie zeiltgeist or however you spell it. if yo haven't seen the film i highly doubt you are stillable to as i was told it was going to be removed shortly after i had it downloaded by someone who did.
I deleted my version after i viewed it and felt it was not worth seeing again. I do not like conspiracy theory type movies or stories as there are too many holes in their 'evidence' and perspective.
i would like to hear from anyone who knows anythign about the banking system and who has seen the film so i can verify their claims about debt, etc.
Nooo, I was saying that we should stop and bring it back on topic.
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