Notices

View Poll Results: What time of your life did you become atheist?

Voters
43. You may not vote on this poll
  • Childhood: 0 - 12

    17 39.53%
  • Adolescence: 13 - 19

    5 11.63%
  • Early adulthood: 20 - 29

    11 25.58%
  • Adulthood: 30 - 39

    1 2.33%
  • Middle-aged: 40 - 49

    0 0%
  • Late adulthood: 50 - 59

    0 0%
  • Elder ages: 60+

    0 0%
  • Non; I am a theist.

    9 20.93%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 102
Like Tree28Likes

Thread: The time when you realise God does not exist.

  1. #1 The time when you realise God does not exist. 
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Ever since I've been settling into my own little atheist world I've had a great number of changes to adjust to and have found my life very difficult to cope with. However I am getting on bit by bit but even though the path is hard coming from theism I realise that this may not be the same way people arrive at atheism as I. So my question is to you, how exactly you have become atheist and the reasons why you decdied to be. Be it from theism, agnosticism or simply no ideologies of God what so ever.

    Becoming atheist in my early adulthood (21), my own personal experience derives from me actually listening to the Old testament or 'Hebrew' Bible. I realised that God is a tyrant, so to speak. Vengeful, genocidal, cruel, haienous and all the terrible commands he gives his servants as he labels us is disgraceful. I always used to come up with the 'its God's plan' excuse. As I'm sure the concentration camps of WWII were 'Hitler's plan' for the bettering of the world to the germanic people, and thats when I realised that German nazi propoganda that was spread saying the concentraion camps was good is the same propoganda that the Bible speaks of in murdering numerous different tribes... Thats really it, apart from some other revelations...

    In answering, please also to include all kinds of people in this discussion may I ask of some theists also as to your intelligent minds being able to comphrend God's existence, I wish to understand a theists belief also in God despite the objective evidence that sways in both directions, aka The Bible for some, the theory of evolution for some...

    This is not an attack on theism, or atheism. I simply wish to understand here your own personal reasons for:

    a) becoming an atheist from theist.
    b) choosing atheism from nothing.
    c) becoming atheist through logic and reason.
    d) remaining theist despite objectional data (if there is any observable to you).


    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    I had an interesting transformation when I ceased to be Catholic. Didn't have anything to do with the world around me either. Always questioned, but never doubted until I decided to test the afterlife. Gotta love acute OCD...


    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    787
    Always questioned, but never doubted until I decided to test the afterlife.
    what did you do to test the 'afterlife'? details please.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    I jumped...
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Junior
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    240
    I got yelled at for everything in Catholic school. From going to the bathroom, to laughing in class, a couple times for even just staring off into space I got in trouble. I remember once I asked the nun how did the church know what it taught was right. She told me there were different numbers of councils that were called and what was accepted doctrine was established by agreement of different bishops. Once my father and the parish pastor got into an argument. The pastor assumed my father would float a bill for having the church sewage system cleaned just because it was the church, which my father flatly said no too. My father also wanted to be my cousin's god father but the same priest said no, citing that my father hadn't been to mass or donated to the church recently. Most of my friends left my catholic school when I was 11 or so so I was stuck in that school with people who didn't like me because I lived in a poorer area. I would usually stay by myself, read, and several times the nuns would go out of their way to tell people to play with me, like I was some freak. I despised that kind of pity. The combination of materialism, finding fault with everything I did, the seemingly mourning of hte faith rather than celebration of it, and overbearing attitude of "we know whats good for you, so you just sit back and let us tell you what you need to know" ruined the faith of my childhood.
    arKane likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Professor Obviously's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,416
    I voted "Childhood: 0 - 12" due to the fact that I've always been questioning the enviroment around me. It's been a mostly gradual process, but as I grew I noticed that any logical reason or justification I had for my beliefs had a flaw. I continued to notice these flaws up until early adolescence (or a bit earlier) when I decided the whole concept of God was inherently flawed (most notably the christian one). This was a conclusion not only based upon the concept (which I had tried to modify to make sense of before, thinking of God as energy, etc), but on the study of people around me of whom believed in these things, their behaviour, actions, and so on along with the investigation of myself and how I acted. I had noticed a sense of "fakeness" over it all when looking at religious groups, often when I was more or less part of it.

    Even upon realizing this I've still been continuously questioning the concept of a God. I reached my conclusion before I met figures like Richard Dawkins, but still, such figures did reopen how I'd met my conclusions.

    Science has always been a part of me too. As a child I was quite interested in for example dinosaurs (not many people around me were) and other science related things like astronomy. Otherwise I was also looking for logical explanations for phenomena around me and asking a lot of questions. Even had to face my fears a couple of times when investigating supernatural stuff like ghosts, etc, which turned out to me nothing more than a figment of my imagination.

    The more I've looked on the world around me -- investigating myself, others and natural phenomena -- the more of an atheist I've become. Today I consider myself to be a metaphysical naturalist, but I worry about the extreme I'm taking. My philosophy which has guided me so far is simple, but stricktly based upon three principles; truth, balance and understanding.
    KALSTER likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Hee hee hee. I voted 0 since I was not raised Christian or a theist of any kind. Thus it was the presumption of my upbringing that this belief in God was a peculiar mental handicap that some people had.

    LOL

    The problem with this as with anything like this kind of question is the assumption that you know what this thing you call "God" is refering to. I mean if you always thought that the universe was God then "coming to the realization that God does not exist" would have a very different significance.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    THE God mitchell, not the Bibles God. If He exists? :?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,590
    A quote from David Attenborough mirrors my experience exactly, down to the headmaster wearing a dog collar.

    "It never really occurred to me to believe in God - and I had nothing to rebel against, my parents told me nothing whatsoever. But I do remember looking at my headmaster delivering a sermon, a classicist, extremely clever ... and thinking, he can't really believe all that, can he? How incredible!"

    Here's the source of that quote:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...orough-science
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Bachelors Degree
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    416
    it appears that the arcane mathematician and i have something in common, we both tested the afterlife. he did so by jumping off of something, obviously intentional. i however realized that all known religions were wrong when i accidentally electrocuted myself. i didn't see a bright light or heaven or some old white guy with a beard next to a young jew and a bunch of winged people. what i did see was a multitude of collors and an overlapping of all the events of my life, not one after another, but all projected onto one screen, itall seemed to make sense and then poof. i was alive again.

    no heaven= judeo-christians are wrong

    not being born again= hindu-budhist belivers are wrong.

    i'm not familiar with any other religions, but pretty much anything with an afterlife was proven wrong in my eyes. to be honest i'm not quite atheist, i still go to a methodist church, not because i believe in their god, but because of their value system, i support what they do in the community, ifind it a neccesary evil that they convert most of the people they help. the same goes for any other religion that does good things in the world.
    physics: accurate, objective, boring
    chemistry: accurate if physics is accurate, slightly subjective, you can blow stuff up
    biology: accurate if chemistry is accurate, somewhat subjective, fascinating
    religion: accurate if people are always right, highly subjective, bewildering
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    2,256
    I came close to drowning before, but no life flashing before my eyes. I attribute this to my complete lack of imagination/visualisation.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf
    THE God mitchell, not the Bibles God. If He exists? :?
    But isn't that a little peculiar. Doesn't the use of the preposition "the" especially capitalized like that already presume that He exists? If you are going to say that God does or doesn't exist, how can what you say have any meaning if you don't first explain what this word God refers to?
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 god 
    Forum Freshman Haku_Midori_Shadowsong's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    N/A
    Posts
    23
    It seems to me that there are NO conclusive arguments that can absolutely disprove god’s existence.

    However I welcome any and all attempts.
    -Haku Midori Shadowsong
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    I voted "theist".

    I was raised Catholic but I really did not "know for sure that God existed" for most of my life. So maybe I was really a "practicing agnostic". I think my reasoning was:
    "I don't know if there is a God; however, if He is there then I want Him on my side." So I went to Church etc. and went through the motions.

    I can't remember the reason; however, at some point I decided to try and find out if God is really "up there". So I basically chased Him. What I mean is, I decided to do whatever it takes to determine if there is really a God, and see if He can be "reached" or communicated with. The key changes I made included: if I had a bad habit that seemed to be inconsistent to what is taught in Church, I tried to stop it. Secondly, I worked at trying to comply with teachings of the Church which I had basically ignored hitherto. Thirdly, I tried to spend time with God on a daily basis and study the Bible and talk/pray as if God were a person. I think this was the key.

    Frankly, I was shocked at God's response. A bunch of things happened that are somewhat personal that basically erased all doubt that I had about the existence of God.

    At this point I am certain that God exists. I also believe that my walk with God needs improvement and I lack direction. I think my previous thinking of "getting God on my side" was all wrong. The God I encountered was cool beyond my imagination. I believe He has cool things for me; but I am not ready. It is kind of like training for a sport like surfing. Surfing in hurricane surf is one of the most exiting experiences. However, if you are not "in shape", it can kill you. Right now, I feel that I am "not in shape".
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    There is no option for me. I never became an atheist.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    There is no option for me. I never became an atheist.
    Is a rock an atheist? It follows then that you were born an atheist and the "became" part is when you first gained consciousness. Option A it is then. :wink:
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Is a rock an atheist? It follows then that you were born an atheist and the "became" part is when you first gained consciousness. Option A it is then. :wink:
    Wouldn't I have had to have been a theist to become an atheist? Is a world where religion doesn't exist a world of atheists?
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    Is a rock an atheist? It follows then that you were born an atheist and the "became" part is when you first gained consciousness. Option A it is then. :wink:
    Wouldn't I have had to have been a theist to become an atheist? Is a world where religion doesn't exist a world of atheists?
    I hold that atheism is a position one takes when presented with a worldview where a god exists, not one you are born with. Atheism can't exist without theism IMO. So the question becomes: At what age does one really have the capacity to decide? Not at first consciousness then I guess, like I said in the first post, but when?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19 evedience rules me not God 
    New Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2
    I was raised in a moderately religious family. They all believed in god, but didn't know exactly why. I guess I've only recently stopped believing because I questioned, and got no definitive proof of his/her existence. No one called my name out of nowhere, none of my "prayers" have ever been answered, and surely no god has made a physical appearance.
    I'm not saying that anyone who believes is wrong, there was just never any personal proof for me, and being of a scientific nature, I can't blindly follow something.
    I say, show me proof beyond hookey miracles and tattered old story books, and I'll believe.
    A person can not be judged by the amount of materials they have, but by the number of people that come to their funeral.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Consciousness is not something that begins all at once but something that grows and I have serious doubts that children of a young age really have the sort of consciousness that makes meaningful decisions about such things (age varying somewhat naturally). For this reason I find a lot of Sunday school programs to be absurd if not grotesque, making what they are teaching into a joke if anything. It is not that I think they do any harm as much as simply being a bit meaningless. Children will repeat back whatever they are required to, but I have serious doubts that it means any more than the mimicry of a parrot.

    So if you accept these premises I am suggesting then I would have to conclude that there is in fact no date that I decided or realized that God did not exist. I think that my first decision along these lines was that there was some kind of non-physical aspect to reality. In regards to God in particular, I think that from the very beginning my thoughts have always been that the real question is not whether God exists but what is this God that DOES exist, ie. just a story, a principle, a force, or a personal being of some sort.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21 Re: The time when you realise God does not exist. 
    New Member Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Wolf
    This is not an attack on theism, or atheism. I simply wish to understand here your own personal reasons for:

    a) becoming an atheist from theist.
    b) choosing atheism from nothing.
    c) becoming atheist through logic and reason.
    d) remaining theist despite objectional data (if there is any observable to you).
    a) I had a religious upbringing but I never really believed any of it.
    Of course I wasn't sure in early childhood because I was bombarded by relgious views and surrounded by religious people. It would have been quite natural to give in I suppose.
    But even as a kid I thought it was all rather outlandish and none of my questions were answered to satisfaction.
    Sure, I believed Jesus existed, and I still think some person named Jesus that was of some fame at the time existed, but I didn't believe that he could perform all those miracles not did I believe in the core of the believe; God.

    b) I don't think you choose atheism. I certainly didn't, I just didn't believe all the supernatural crap. Later I learned that it was called atheism.

    c) I reject the existence of God and the supernatural alike on the basis of logic and reason.


    People can call me what they want, but I really just don't believe in some stuff other people do believe in. That's about it.
    arKane likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Sure, I believed Jesus existed, and I still think some person named Jesus that was of some fame at the time existed, but I didn't believe that he could perform all those miracles
    Same here. People believe 2000 year old accounts of his miracles, but I am sure David Copperfield could have, and probably have done, some of them. I have even heard people say that he must be from the devil do be able to do those things. Did Jesus fly? David can. :wink:
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    I was raised Catholic, though is was much stronger with our extended family than with my folks. My dad and I were as likely to be at a motocross race or fishing somewheres on a SUnday than in church. My mom took more the Jefferson view that her children had to decide on their own but encouraged us to be avid readers and critical thinker.

    Took a good look at the OT as a teenager and was sincerely horrified by what I hadn't been taught by traditional religious sources. Rather than a loving father, its almost entirely a recounting of a vengeance, pride, numerous atrocities--in short a book of evil so vile I seriously wondered for a while if all three faiths of the book weren't based on worshiping the wrong being as opposed to the relatively innocuous perfect angel which as been tossed out of heaven.

    About the same time I discovered I was really good at math and its application to sciences. I dove headlong into science finding actual answers to how the world worked. In time I gradually worked past the minor guilt I felt at examining Christianity--its horrific terror filled history by it's own hand--it's questionable origins and eventually accepted that it was completely contrived and really no different than any other myths that preceded it or that has come since. Its most laudable trait seems to be adaptability which helped it's attractiveness and survival under various forms of government and cultures--that same adaptability can be used by Christians even today to support torture and charity in nearly the same sentence. Most notably its allowed it to function in a secular society where laws are based on reason rather than bronze age wisdom--though we still struggle with that in the States.

    By 25 or so I was an atheist by most people's standards of what god means. I''m also quite spiritual with deep emotional connection such as awe, wonder at everything in nature--even phenomena I'm an expert at such as weather and climate. People who know me well are sometimes surprised that I don't believe in a personal god often from false assumptions though, I follow laws I understand, I am an Army Officer and do my best to help others and the environment. I don't wear atheism on my sleeve in person--I found simple prejudice sometime interferes with peoples perceptions--particularly first impressions. I do not think theist are bad people, most believe in only the good parts and do their best to live that way. As long as they don't push their bronze age "wisdom" while completely ignoring what we know about human behaviors from science, and vast differences of societies from those days, I don't mind their way of thinking.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Universalis Infinitis Devon Keogh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dublin, Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    145
    Religion only exists because priests in ancient times wanted money.
    Religion only exists because people are stubborn in belief.

    I once asked a boy how long he has believed in God, he said always, even before he was born.
    I replied that that was impossible and that you have no concept of reality before and for a while after you are born. (My religion teacher agrees with me)
    He refused to listen and started rambling on about how the Bible exists, and I explained that writers wrote it, then he said God wrote it.
    Then another boy, acting like a fool started roaring "God is Great."

    They refuse to listen to reason.
    They also only believe in god because their parents told them about religion, not because they are born into it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,822
    Quote Originally Posted by Devon Keogh View Post
    Religion only exists because priests in ancient times wanted money.
    That's an interesting hypothesis. Do you have any evidence to support your hypothesis?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,309
    Necro thread......
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Another of one my old threads... Am I Jesus?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    Ever since I've been settling into my own little atheist world I've had a great number of changes to adjust to and have found my life very difficult to cope with. However I am getting on bit by bit but even though the path is hard coming from theism I realize that this may not be the same way people arrive at atheism as I. So my question is to you, how exactly you have become atheist and the reasons why you decided to be. Be it from theism, agnosticism or simply no ideologies of God what so ever.

    Becoming atheist in my early adulthood (21), my own personal experience derives from me actually listening to the Old testament or 'Hebrew' Bible. I realized that God is a tyrant, so to speak. Vengeful, genocidal, cruel, heinous and all the terrible commands he gives his servants as he labels us is disgraceful. I always used to come up with the 'its God's plan' excuse. As I'm sure the concentration camps of WWII were 'Hitler's plan' for the bettering of the world to the Germanic people, and that's when I realized that German Nazi propaganda that was spread saying the concentration camps was good is the same propaganda that the Bible speaks of in murdering numerous different tribes... That's really it, apart from some other revelations...

    In answering, please also to include all kinds of people in this discussion may I ask of some theists also as to your intelligent minds being able to comprehend God's existence, I wish to understand a theists belief also in God despite the objective evidence that sways in both directions, aka The Bible for some, the theory of evolution for some...

    This is not an attack on theism, or atheism. I simply wish to understand here your own personal reasons for:

    a) becoming an atheist from theist.
    b) choosing atheism from nothing.
    c) becoming atheist through logic and reason.
    d) remaining theist despite objectionable data (if there is any observable to you).
    I was born an atheist, but I did try to become a theist, but failed miserably. No matter how hard I tried for whatever reasons it just didn't work for me. It's hard being an atheist kid growing up in a religious world, so for the most part I faked being a believer. I have to tell you that gets old, but what can you do when people say grace at dinner time or you go to a funeral.

    Until I found the science forums I virtually never met or knew any atheists that I could talk to. I have to say it's been a real eye opener and I'll never fake it again.
    KALSTER likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    All depends upon how you're raised. You aren't born with an inherent belief in God. Either your parents tell you God exists and you grow up believing it or your parents don't talk about God and you think Santa is the supreme being.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    All depends upon how you're raised. You aren't born with an inherent belief in God. Either your parents tell you God exists and you grow up believing it or your parents don't talk about God and you think Santa is the supreme being.
    My parents took credit for Christmas presents. We did have Christmas but it was never a religious celebration. I'm sure the stores looking for shoppers appreciated that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    All depends upon how you're raised. You aren't born with an inherent belief in God. Either your parents tell you God exists and you grow up believing it or your parents don't talk about God and you think Santa is the supreme being.
    My parents took credit for Christmas presents. We did have Christmas but it was never a religious celebration. I'm sure the stores looking for shoppers appreciated that.
    Interesting you bring that up. The day I confronted my parents about Santa Clause, and expressed my incredulity about flying reindeer and they admitted it to me (kind of), was the day I took my biggest step toward overcoming my Mormon beliefs.

    Later I went on a "mission". I was reading about a bad guy or "antichrist" in the Book of Mormon who convinced himself to sincerely believe in his false teachings because he began teaching them and gradually the act of teaching caused him to believe them even though they were false.

    Then a prominent leader of my church showed up and gave us a discourse about how the best way to get a "testimony" (Mormon word for firm belief in Mormonism) was to go out and bear testimony even though we don't believe it yet, and by so doing we would come to believe it.

    I kind of put two and two together, and concluded that perhaps I had found a verifiable contradiction here.

    Later on I was telling someone about Joseph Smith having the angels of Peter, James, and John visit him, and the guy just gave me this look like to say "Really???" "Honestly? You believe that?" And I began to remember that day when I had confronted my parents about the reality of flying reindeer.......
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Wonderful. That was incredibly poetic and heroic there kojax
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    My background is that I was raised Catholic, but not in an overbearing or indoctrinating fashion. My parents were way to busy to indoctrinate anything except good habits as best as they could.

    Thus, I would say that for most of my religious life I attended services as a form of "Pascal's wager" without a certainty that God exists.

    I became certain that God exists when I decided to seek God.

    By "seeking God", I mean I joined a local church, participated, sought God daily on my own, and put any "bad habits" on the table for God to help me overcome.

    Then I could see prayers being answered etc. much more clearly. So it was more of a perceptual change.
    Flick Montana likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Flatland
    Posts
    5,438
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    My background is that I was raised Catholic, but not in an overbearing or indoctrinating fashion. My parents were way to busy to indoctrinate anything except good habits as best as they could.

    Thus, I would say that for most of my religious life I attended services as a form of "Pascal's wager" without a certainty that God exists.

    I became certain that God exists when I decided to seek God.

    By "seeking God", I mean I joined a local church, participated, sought God daily on my own, and put any "bad habits" on the table for God to help me overcome.

    Then I could see prayers being answered etc. much more clearly. So it was more of a perceptual change.
    I find this far more fascinating than people who are indoctrinated young. I'm not too adept at discussion of psychology, but I do wonder what the fundamental differences are between young people who go to church on their own volition (such as myself and you I believe) and come away with completely different mindsets and worldviews.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Haku_Midori_Shadowsong View Post
    It seems to me that there are NO conclusive arguments that can absolutely disprove god’s existence.

    However I welcome any and all attempts.
    This is the very project I am working on. To do as I can to save the people of the world (like my parents who are theists and my sister, who I know has had doubts) from destroying themselves mentally and willing to die physically all in the name of a god who promises paradise if you obey strict laws (which keep you from objective/creative thinking, and living the life we all were meant to live) and have a personal relationship with him. I will keep your post in mind as I continue with the project, or we can even debate. My e-mail should be public, if you're interested.

    ~Gatene
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36 My 27 years of theism... 
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    As for me, I was a god-fearing, bible thumping child/adolescent/young adult/adult until I was 27. I was on and off hardcore, having all sorts of personal battles, beating myself up, knowing I couldn't be myself and still enter the kingdom of Heaven. God was my savior, my best friend, and nothing could deter me from belief, even when the proof was staring at me directly in my face. I have been confronted by atheists in the past, most were mean-spirited about the whole thing. Yelling and swearing at me. This behavior - which I refuse to use, now that I know how it feels - only strengthened my belief in God. Once I was 25 or maybe even a little later, I did start to question things. It would tear me up every time I had an inclination to go back to my old ways - of what I refer to now as, living life - to the point where I would question the existence of God. At times I would beg on my knees to the creator, and never get a response. The last time I did that, I was approached by a man who did have all of the answers, who put everything in perspective, showed me why God couldn't exist. He then gave me books to read.

    It was a long hard road, most of the time I was depressed (even though I got the proof I wanted). My whole life, I was tricked by the very ones that knew better. I realized everyone was. It didn't make me bitter, it made me mad; but at the same time, I knew how it was to be duped into believing that there was something higher than myself that would judge me and hold me accountable for my actions throughout my entire life.

    I am now 32 years old; and while I cannot remember everything the man taught me, I have the books that confirmed the non existence of the fabled God. My plan is to study all that I can, talk to as many people as possible. To be versed in reality, and to ultimately prove to all of humanity that there isn't a God or gods. That they all are just our way of coping with death, and keeping others in check. Early man, whose brains weren't evolved as ours today thought up the idea of gods, so with evolved brains, why should we still? We know what our thoughts and conscience is, why give all of that credit to something that doesn't exist?

    ~Gatene
    KALSTER and arKane like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    As for me, I was a god-fearing, bible thumping child/adolescent/young adult/adult until I was 27. I was on and off hardcore, having all sorts of personal battles, beating myself up, knowing I couldn't be myself and still enter the kingdom of Heaven. God was my savior, my best friend, and nothing could deter me from belief, even when the proof was staring at me directly in my face. I have been confronted by atheists in the past, most were mean-spirited about the whole thing. Yelling and swearing at me. This behavior - which I refuse to use, now that I know how it feels - only strengthened my belief in God. Once I was 25 or maybe even a little later, I did start to question things. It would tear me up every time I had an inclination to go back to my old ways - of what I refer to now as, living life - to the point where I would question the existence of God. At times I would beg on my knees to the creator, and never get a response. The last time I did that, I was approached by a man who did have all of the answers, who put everything in perspective, showed me why God couldn't exist. He then gave me books to read.

    It was a long hard road, most of the time I was depressed (even though I got the proof I wanted). My whole life, I was tricked by the very ones that knew better. I realized everyone was. It didn't make me bitter, it made me mad; but at the same time, I knew how it was to be duped into believing that there was something higher than myself that would judge me and hold me accountable for my actions throughout my entire life.

    I am now 32 years old; and while I cannot remember everything the man taught me, I have the books that confirmed the non existence of the fabled God. My plan is to study all that I can, talk to as many people as possible. To be versed in reality, and to ultimately prove to all of humanity that there isn't a God or gods. That they all are just our way of coping with death, and keeping others in check. Early man, whose brains weren't evolved as ours today thought up the idea of gods, so with evolved brains, why should we still? We know what our thoughts and conscience is, why give all of that credit to something that doesn't exist?

    ~Gatene
    You definitely took the long rough road. I believe most people who are religious were brain washed as young children. Some more so than others, many of them are not very active in their beliefs unless you bait them a bit. If you enjoy talking to other atheist, the various science forums are a very good place to do it.

    Welcome to the forum
    Gatene likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Thanks arKane, good to be here. Yeah, it's a horrible way to grow up, and that's all you know when you do. So, when someone questions it, or tries to say otherwise, you defend the crap out of it. All is good though, I found out at an early enough age to enjoy my life, and I am going to do it by disproving the brain disease.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    Thanks arKane, good to be here. Yeah, it's a horrible way to grow up, and that's all you know when you do. So, when someone questions it, or tries to say otherwise, you defend the crap out of it. All is good though, I found out at an early enough age to enjoy my life, and I am going to do it by disproving the brain disease.
    Given your former attitude, I'm betting you did a lot of defending. Do you ever feel embarrassed when you remember some of those times now? Also, you have an interesting avatar, can you explain what it means to you?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    My background is that I was raised Catholic, but not in an overbearing or indoctrinating fashion. My parents were way to busy to indoctrinate anything except good habits as best as they could.

    Thus, I would say that for most of my religious life I attended services as a form of "Pascal's wager" without a certainty that God exists.

    I became certain that God exists when I decided to seek God.

    By "seeking God", I mean I joined a local church, participated, sought God daily on my own, and put any "bad habits" on the table for God to help me overcome.

    Then I could see prayers being answered etc. much more clearly. So it was more of a perceptual change.
    I find this far more fascinating than people who are indoctrinated young. I'm not too adept at discussion of psychology, but I do wonder what the fundamental differences are between young people who go to church on their own volition (such as myself and you I believe) and come away with completely different mindsets and worldviews.
    I think people that seek God on their own will have a stronger faith than people who are just indoctrinated. I am not sure why. Maybe it is related to the natural tendency of young people to become individuals apart from their parents.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Given your former attitude, I'm betting you did a lot of defending. Do you ever feel embarrassed when you remember some of those times now? Also, you have an interesting avatar, can you explain what it means to you?
    Yeah, I did do quite a bit of defending, especially when I started to come out of my shell and meet people. And yes, I do feel rather embarrassed, but with the rebuttals I get now when I speak my religious views, remind me a lot of myself. The ole "empirical" evidences, and refusing to listen to anything to the contrary, no matter how much sense it made. It makes me realize how tight knit the web of deception really is. Most people - whether they are religious or not - believe in something that cannot be proven or disproved. Each of those people have some sort of personal proof. I've learned that when we teach ourselves to THINK and not believe until REAL empirical proof is given, we can be wiser. I cannot say how many times I've gotten into fights with my best friend over some nonreligious beliefs he's had (I don't want to disclose the names). Of course, that is part of the fun of life, finding empirical proof. Like remote viewing, I find it to be a fascinating subject, I want to learn to do it, but I still have my doubts. If it requires belief to work, then I just chop it up as a brain thing, like gods. If it requires death for proof, then I have nothing to do with it (of course, this means for me personally, for my studies, I will embrace everything to back myself up).

    Anyway, my avatar is two images that I photoshopped. The main image with the N and T in the background is a, "club" I am in, and then I just added an atheist fish (Darwin fish, gefilte fish with legs, whatever). Just a representation of who I am.
    arKane likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    At this point I am certain that God exists. I also believe that my walk with God needs improvement and I lack direction. I think my previous thinking of "getting God on my side" was all wrong. The God I encountered was cool beyond my imagination. I believe He has cool things for me; but I am not ready. It is kind of like training for a sport like surfing. Surfing in hurricane surf is one of the most exiting experiences. However, if you are not "in shape", it can kill you. Right now, I feel that I am "not in shape".
    I couldn't agree more. It's an amazing feeling to have God by your side, like there is no longer anything missing from your life. Almost like being invincible to all the horrors of the world. No, I'm not patronizing you, I just remember the feeling all to well, but if you read my posts, you would know where I stand now, I just wanted to add that to your convo.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    I couldn't agree more. It's an amazing feeling to have God by your side, like there is no longer anything missing from your life. Almost like being invincible to all the horrors of the world. No, I'm not patronizing you, I just remember the feeling all to well, but if you read my posts, you would know where I stand now, I just wanted to add that to your convo.
    I agree completely. It's not just amazing, but awe inspiring. You can feel the renewed strength course within you when you find you can rely on him. The only difference between you and me is that you call him, "God" and I call him "Joe Pesci."
    But the principle is still the same.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I agree completely. It's not just amazing, but awe inspiring. You can feel the renewed strength course within you when you find you can rely on him. The only difference between you and me is that you call him, "God" and I call him "Joe Pesci."
    But the principle is still the same.
    LOL, I am an atheist, I was just commenting to that guy, letting him know I could relate from when I was a Christian.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    Anyway, my avatar is two images that I Photoshopped. The main image with the N and T in the background is a, "club" I am in, and then I just added an atheist fish (Darwin fish, gefilte fish with legs, whatever). Just a representation of who I am.
    I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as an "atheist fish" Well live and learn something new every day.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    LOL, I am an atheist, I was just commenting to that guy, letting him know I could relate from when I was a Christian.
    The funny thing is, I remember it as being why I believed at all. Kinda self fulfilling.

    And arKane; all fish are atheists. And some Gingers are, too.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Forum Professor arKane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Washington state
    Posts
    1,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    And arKane; all fish are atheists. And some Gingers are, too.
    You know I was referring to the symbol.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    You know I was referring to the symbol.
    You mean Prince? I don't know if he's an atheist or not.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatene View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I agree completely. It's not just amazing, but awe inspiring. You can feel the renewed strength course within you when you find you can rely on him. The only difference between you and me is that you call him, "God" and I call him "Joe Pesci."
    But the principle is still the same.
    LOL, I am an atheist, I was just commenting to that guy, letting him know I could relate from when I was a Christian.
    I guess my perception is a little different in that although I am certain that God is there, I don't feel invincible. It is more like His guidance is there, but it is up to me to be able to hear it or to be skilled enough to use it if I do hear it. From my perspective, that skill / hearing comes from spending time with God. I still have a ways to go.
    Last edited by dedo; January 7th, 2013 at 07:29 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Last time I was in trouble I made avery heart felt prayer to Thor (It was a weather related problem so I thought he might be able to solve it.)

    .It seemed to work, so I therefore concluded that Thor is a real god. Either that or whoever the real god(s) is/are, he/she/it/they doesn't/don't care too much about what name I call them by.
    Quantime likes this.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    I asked for the rain to stop on the day me and my first girlfriend went to the seaside, and it did straight away! It was a great day!... later on we made love that afternoon and all night, that's the day we both lost our virginity.

    Thanks Thor! Love ya buddy!
    KALSTER likes this.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,232
    Quote Originally Posted by gatene
    At times I would beg on my knees to the creator, and never get a response.
    One thing I remember, is as a young child ripping my precious pocket money in half and praying to God to fix them in order to prove his existence. Didn't work obviously, though that didn't stop me from being a believer, alternating between strong and week, until some time after grade 12.

    I have the books that confirmed the non existence of the fabled God.
    Have you read The Daemon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan? Brilliant book. It will take care of your notions about remote viewing as well hopefully (it's nonsense).
    Neverfly likes this.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    One thing I remember, is as a young child ripping my precious pocket money in half and praying to God to fix them in order to prove his existence. Didn't work obviously, though that didn't stop me from being a believer, alternating between strong and week, until some time after grade 12.
    I had asked many times, not just that once.

    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    Have you read The Daemon Haunted World, by Carl Sagan? Brilliant book. It will take care of your notions about remote viewing as well hopefully (it's nonsense).
    No, but I shall.
    KALSTER likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    Ever since I've been settling into my own little atheist world I've had a great number of changes to adjust to and have found my life very difficult to cope with. However I am getting on bit by bit but even though the path is hard coming from theism I realise that this may not be the same way people arrive at atheism as I. So my question is to you, how exactly you have become atheist and the reasons why you decdied to be. Be it from theism, agnosticism or simply no ideologies of God what so ever.
    I don't see theism or atheism as something you choose. It's almost, but not quite, like sexuality. You have a way of perceiving the world around you. In some cases, some perceptions, are influenced by what others tell us, but all perceptions are based on experiences. Sexuality may also be influenced by biological differences but it isn't fully understood why some people are attracted to one gender, both genders or completely put off by sex all together. I have found that my tastes in food change as often as my tastes in fashion. It may be that something chemical has changed in my brain or body taht causes me to respond differently to stimuli.

    But when it comes to cognitive reasoning, we don't always choose what we manage to comprehend. Sure we can and often do choose. I think stupidity is a choice, but we choose what information we accept and reject. But sometimes reality smacks us so hard upside the head that we simply cannot ignore it anymore no matter how badly we may want to. It's like when a mother loses a child. She may live in denial for many years and convince herself that hte child is just missing and that the one they buried is not really hers but eventually one day her brain will fail to block the accurate perceptions of reality and she will suddenly realize her child is dead and never coming back. At that point she will finally be able to heal.

    Knowledge is like this. Sure we can block it and deny it at will. But at some point our brains do the math without our permission and we see clearly. Once that reality has been seen it is nearly impossible to go back to the state of denial that we had previously lived in. Kinda like never being able to get your virginity back.

    Accepting that there is no god is part of a greiving process. It's like losing a loved one. In my case it was like losing an abusive husband. I was relieved. Felt stupid for having married the bastard and finally felt safe knowing that I could choose my own path in life without fear that some jerk was going to punish me for being practical.

    Perhaps your adaptation to atheism depends on what kind of relationship you had with the god character. In my case, the relationship was like my first two marriages. One sided, neglectful, and domineering. Losing that was no pain at all.

    I became an atheist when I realized every horrible thing that ever happened to me in my life were directly tied to bad decisions I had made. Decisions I made because I was told or believed that it was what God wanted me to do, in spite of the fact that logic clearly dictated the proposed actions to be unwise and that the expected outcome, based on pattern observation, was all too predictable to be negative for me. When I stopped ignoring natural patterns I realized that no advertised persona of god could be anything more than the imaginings of man life improved for me. I stopped feeling inadequate. I stopped feeling unloved. I stopped feeling as if I were a failure and being duly punished or tested. Sure I still feel I am suffering the consequences of my past actions, but we all are. And when good things happen sometimes it is due to careful planning and other times its just dumb luck. Life is chaos and nothing is personal. I feel much more secure knowing this than I did assuming there was a god looking out for me, but failing to perform as promised.
    Kompi and Gatene like this.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Forum Freshman Gatene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Myrtle Beach, South Carolina
    Posts
    25
    Not to sound like a theist, but "A-Men" lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy
    Accepting that there is no god is part of a greiving process. It's like losing a loved one. In my case it was like losing an abusive husband. I was relieved. Felt stupid for having married the bastard and finally felt safe knowing that I could choose my own path in life without fear that some jerk was going to punish me for being practical.

    Yes, it was very much the same for me. Although, my reasoning for becoming one was different, I finally felt relieved and free to choose to be who I wanted to be. It was a marvelous feeling, and I never had to worry about going to hell, beating myself up, etc.
    ---
    A fact is something that doesn't require belief or death to be tested.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    interesting that the majority votes on your poll have the age between 0-12..
    would this be the only topic that one forms such a solid opinion about at an early age, and keeps it into adulthood?

    i think the other equivilent belief is UFO's..
    i know i have been wishy washy about my belief in UFO's..but not God..(i was when i was younger)..

    I wasnt indoctrinated..i came to believe on my own..well..not by myself..but without alot of churchy influence..er..till i started going to church that is...
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Decisions I made because I was told or believed that it was what God wanted me to do,.
    that is why i have an attitude against religion..
    they got ppl so ingrained to believe that the religious leader knows best about God...
    they are just as human as the rest of us..they screw up too..
    i hate it that God gets blamed because some pastor gave someone else some bad advice..
    Blame the pastor..not God..
    hell, i will even support you if you blame religion..but its not Gods fault they told you wrong.



    religion has got it wrong.
    and its the fault of the religious version of 'Politicly Correct'..
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Decisions I made because I was told or believed that it was what God wanted me to do,.
    that is why i have an attitude against religion..
    they got ppl so ingrained to believe that the religious leader knows best about God...
    they are just as human as the rest of us..they screw up too..
    i hate it that God gets blamed because some pastor gave someone else some bad advice..
    Blame the pastor..not God..
    hell, i will even support you if you blame religion..but its not Gods fault they told you wrong.



    religion has got it wrong.
    and its the fault of the religious version of 'Politicly Correct'..
    Squirrel, I don't think you believe in God. I think you believe in a Higher Power, yes, but not "God."

    Your God is like most- whatever it is that you want him to be.

    This is how you are able to defend the position of that God, even when disregarding scripture or preaching.

    It's like the invisible elf- You can always find a way to show how others cannot see the elf.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Your God is like most- whatever it is that you want him to be.
    1,close..re; to define god is to limit him..
    2, why would that be a bad thing?
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    1,close..re; to define god is to limit him..
    Can you do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    2, why would that be a bad thing?
    I have no opinion on it as good or bad.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Forum Freshman Kompi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    74
    The matter as to when exactly I ultimately realised I no longer held a belief in God(s) actually isn't as set as one might suspect it to be, or rather I think I might have stopped believing long before I stopped believing, curiously enough.

    The matter is that in my early twenties, my sense of skepticism finally caught up with my propensity for imagination and superstition and I ended up shedding a great deal of beliefs I'd held prior - my belief in ghosts, spirits, alien visitations and so forth were suddenly all gone. While I suspect that my belief in a God - having already morphed into something very different to what it had been to match my growing knowledge of the world around me - might have effectively ended at the same time, I still clung to it for several years after the fact; with the benefit of hindsight, I'm actually not sure whether it is more accurate to say I still believed or that I just believed that I believed even if I no longer believed.

    I do know that I was on some level aware that what was left of my belief (or belief of belief) in a God could not survive a full-on confrontation with my model of how the Universe worked, and I remember times when I expended a great deal of willpower simply to prevent myself from thinking of the two at the same time.

    Then in my later twenties I suddenly found myself forced, by unrelated events, to re-examine my understanding of myself, my mind and my motivations, which ultimately also forced me to finally bring my model of the Universe together with my belief (/of belief) in God together and, as predicted, the latter fell apart with even the slightest nudge.

    With hindsight, I have my suspicions that what delayed the confrontation for so long might have been a fear of either confronting the possibility of death without an afterlife, or the fear that without any kind of belief in a God, my model of the Universe would lead to a very cold and nihilistic conclusion about existence and life in general. While I can not know whether this truly was the case, it does appear to make sense with some memories I have of internal conflict at the time.

    Curiously, my loss of belief in a God has not made me staunchly opposite to the idea that any kind of God could exist so much as it has made me rather apathetic to the matter - to me, the question as to whether God exists just seems irrelevant and uninteresting without a testable hypothesis as to its nature.
    Your intuition can deceive you - don't trust it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by NMSquirrel View Post
    1,close..re; to define god is to limit him..
    Can you do that?
    won't
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    I do not classify myself as a theist or atheist. I'm strongly agnostic, and though I believe in the possibility of a deity, I see no convincing evidence to support it. As an antithesis, I do not disbelieve in a deity because I do not see sufficient evidence to support the claim. My apologies for using the words "a deity" I don't mean that I think any divine being could exist, but that one could theoretically exist. For example, I don't believe in Abrahamic gods, because I see sufficient evidence to the contrary. The deity that I'm strictly agnostic towards is one that created the physical laws and substances of the universe. This question of it's existence, or lack thereof is too theoretical for me. I was also raised in a very religious household from birth, and most of my religious convictions ceased around age 14, though I was doubtful many years prior.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    You seem to be using a limited definition of "agnostic". Agnosticism is a postion on what can be known about god, not whether you believe he exists or not.
    If you don't actually believe he exists then you are, by default, an atheist: albeit a weak one.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    You seem to be using a limited definition of "agnostic". Agnosticism is a postion on what can be known about god, not whether you believe he exists or not.
    If you don't actually believe he exists then you are, by default, an atheist: albeit a weak one.
    I'm of the religious conviction of no conviction. I am strongly agnostic, which can mean that I don't believe in deriving any one-sided conclusions in the matter.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I'm of the religious conviction of no conviction. I am strongly agnostic, which can mean that I don't believe in deriving any one-sided conclusions in the matter.
    "Conviction" is not required.
    One more time: If you don't actually believe he exists then you are, by default, an atheist: albeit a weak one.

    One sided conclusion? Atheism covers a broad spectrum, including not believing but being open to the possibility that evidence could turn up.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; January 15th, 2013 at 06:03 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I am strongly agnostic
    My mind is made up about my uncertainty. I'm strongly assured of my lack of assurance.
    In answer to your question, I say it's a very definite maybe.
    Dywyddyr likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I am strongly agnostic
    My mind is made up about my uncertainty. I'm strongly assured of my lack of assurance.
    In answer to your question, I say it's a very definite maybe.
    No I just decided not to derive neither conclusions nor hypothesis without convicting evidence, therefore I withhold my point that I'm not atheistic or theistic.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I'm of the religious conviction of no conviction. I am strongly agnostic, which can mean that I don't believe in deriving any one-sided conclusions in the matter.
    "Conviction" is not required.
    One more time: If you don't actually believe he exists then you are, by default, an atheist: albeit a weak one.

    One sided conclusion? Atheism covers a broad spectrum, including not believing but being open to the possibility that evidence could turn up.
    I don't believe or disbelieve, and explicit atheism is one of the branches you're referring to. One sided in that the individual chooses to believe/disbelieve. I don't believe I can derive a logical conclusion with the insufficient evidence provided, therefore, I am neither atheistic/theistic, as I have neither rejected/accepted either one.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #70  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I don't believe
    Ergo you're an atheist.

    or disbelieve
    Huh?
    Not believing something exists is NOT the same as believing something does not exist.

    and explicit atheism is one of the branches you're referring to
    Did you wonder why I specifically stated "weak" atheism? Think about that, maybe you'll work it out.

    I don't believe I can derive a logical conclusion with the insufficient evidence provided, therefore, I am neither atheistic/theistic, as I have neither rejected/accepted either one.
    You do not believe, therefore you lack belief in god, therefore you are an atheist.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  72. #71  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I don't believe
    Ergo you're an atheist.

    or disbelieve
    Huh?
    Not believing something exists is NOT the same as believing something does not exist.

    and explicit atheism is one of the branches you're referring to
    Did you wonder why I specifically stated "weak" atheism? Think about that, maybe you'll work it out.

    I don't believe I can derive a logical conclusion with the insufficient evidence provided, therefore, I am neither atheistic/theistic, as I have neither rejected/accepted either one.
    You do not believe, therefore you lack belief in god, therefore you are an atheist.
    I suppose so. I chose to not believe that either one is correct, therefore agnostic. I have rejected both atheism and theism as being inadequately derived, therefore I am neither in their basic definitions of atheist/theist. I could be classified as an implicit atheist, though the argument I made was that I wasn't an atheist, not that I wasn't one of it's many sub-categories.
    Last edited by shlunka; January 15th, 2013 at 07:24 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  73. #72  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,107
    I have a question.

    If atheism= lack of belief in god or belief that there is no god, i have heard it describe both ways though I think they are quite different.
    theism= belief in god
    agnostism= unsure of existence of god,

    What do you call someone who doesn't care if there is a god and gives it no thought at all?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  74. #73  
    Forum Masters Degree Tranquille's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Solar System
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have a question.

    If atheism= lack of belief in god or belief that there is no god, i have heard it describe both ways though I think they are quite different.
    theism= belief in god
    agnostism= unsure of existence of god,

    What do you call someone who doesn't care if there is a god and gives it no thought at all?
    You could swing either towards atheism or you could be an agnostic. If you do not believe there is a god and therefore, do not think about it and do not care about it, you would be an atheist. If you do not care if there is a God or not, in other words, you think 'well he could exist just as he might not exist' but do not care either way, then I would say that falls more into the agnostic camp.

    In short, you would fall into the "normal" category.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  75. #74  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    agnostism= unsure of existence of god
    Agnosticism is an epistemological stance. Regardless of whether you believe in god you can have a stance on whether you consider we can know anything about him/ it.
    Hence agnostic theist/ agnostic atheist.
    Theism/ atheism are whether or not you believe he exists. If you're "unsure" then you don't believe. (Like I said earlier not believing is not the same as believing not - one is a lack of belief, the other is contrary belief).

    What do you call someone who doesn't care if there is a god and gives it no thought at all?
    Apatheism. But again this has nothing to do with whether you actually do believe or not, it's more about how you behave with regard to that belief.
    You could always try ignosticism.
    arKane likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  76. #75  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I have a question.

    If atheism= lack of belief in god or belief that there is no god, i have heard it describe both ways though I think they are quite different.
    theism= belief in god
    agnostism= unsure of existence of god,

    What do you call someone who doesn't care if there is a god and gives it no thought at all?
    Atheism = Intellectual stance that a god/gods/supernatural/non-evidential object does not exist based on amount of evidence for said object/god.
    Theism = Intellectual stance that a god/supernatural entity exists based on non-empirical evidential evidence.
    Agnostic = Skeptical as to whether God/supernatural entity/non-evidential object exists or not.

    There is not really such a thing as an agnostic, atheists will accept a god if it comes along and it is proven to exist and even then it breaks down what 'god' actually means. The term god is so elusive empirically as for if a god did come along would it really be a 'god'?.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  77. #76  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,773
    The poll needs an additional choice: Agnostic.

    jocular
    Reply With Quote  
     

  78. #77  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    The poll needs an additional choice: Agnostic.

    jocular
    No it doesn't.
    You either believe = theist.
    Or you don't = atheist.

    Claiming you "haven't made a decision" implies, automatically, that you don't believe.
    Agnosticism is NOT a stance on the existence of of god: see my earlier posts.
    Quantime and Strange like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  79. #78  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Quote Originally Posted by jocular View Post
    The poll needs an additional choice: Agnostic.

    jocular
    What premise does it need this? The question already implies that the event of becoming atheist has already occurred in the mind of the poll voter, if anything I should have omitted the theist option .

    Cheers.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  80. #79  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Last time I was in trouble I made avery heart felt prayer to Thor (It was a weather related problem so I thought he might be able to solve it.)

    .It seemed to work, so I therefore concluded that Thor is a real god. Either that or whoever the real god(s) is/are, he/she/it/they doesn't/don't care too much about what name I call them by.
    Saying a prayer in time of need is one way to connect with God. However, for me, more commonly the "connection" involves God either teaching me something, or just letting me know that I am not facing life alone.

    Last Sunday was like that. I heard a sermon that seemed to deal with an issue I was concerned about. Then after spending time reading a really intriquing zombie book called "Warm Bodies" (movie comes out Feb. 1), I checked the surf report and the waves were perfect for me (waist to stomach).

    However, when I got to the beach, the fog was so dense that I could not tell if anyone was out. It might sound chicken shit to another surfer, but the zombie book creeped me out with the fog.

    However, after I paddled out I met another surfer and we surfed together in the fog. It was just cool on that day to not be alone.

    How that happens, I don't know. However, it happens again and again. God always seems to find away to let me know that I am never alone.
    Last edited by dedo; January 16th, 2013 at 08:10 AM. Reason: spelling
    Reply With Quote  
     

  81. #80  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    3,107
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Last time I was in trouble I made avery heart felt prayer to Thor (It was a weather related problem so I thought he might be able to solve it.)

    .It seemed to work, so I therefore concluded that Thor is a real god. Either that or whoever the real god(s) is/are, he/she/it/they doesn't/don't care too much about what name I call them by.
    Saying a prayer in time of need is one way to connect with God. However, for me, more commonly the "connection" involves God either teaching me something, or just letting me know that I am not facing life alone.

    Last Sunday was like that. I heard a sermon that seemed to deal with an issue I was concerned about. Then after spending time reading a really intriquing zombie book called "Warm Bodies" (movie comes out Feb. 1), I checked the surf report and the waves were perfect for me (waste to stomach).

    However, when I got to the beach, the fog was so dense that I could not tell if anyone was out. It might sound chicken shit to another surfer, but the zombie book creeped me out with the fog.

    However, after I paddled out I met another surfer and we surfed together in the fog. It was just cool on that day to not be alone.

    How that happens, I don't know. However, it happens again and again. God always seems to find away to let me know that I am never alone.
    I don't get it, how what happens?
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  82. #81  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Then why need the other surfer? Surely God was with you in the Fog and he would protect you from zombies far better than some mere mortal surfer.
    It almost sounds as if "God" is just a convenient word for "imaginary friend." Not real, but serves a purpose, a bit like a movie may not be 'real' but can inspire or alleviate boredom.
    S lot of people will watch a movie or turn on the radio when feeling alone.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  83. #82  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    "What happens" is that at times when there is just a need to be with someone, then it just happens.

    I don't think it is an intellectual issue. The human need to socialize is part of our makeup.

    The fog and the zombie book just enhanced the need to connect, and the need was filled.

    Usually, God works through people. Not always.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  84. #83  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    So what would you say if it turned out that you went to a public place and no one else was there?
    Would you then say that God was there for you?
    But since someone was there (at a public place), you claim that God worked through that guy...

    Does God also work through serial killers? Of course, then, you will probably say that's not God.

    Do you really not see how absolutely absurd that is? It's like taking the imaginary friend to a whole new level.

    Of course, you have no evidence that your claims have any basis in reality, you simply want to believe it- so you do believe it.

    If you spend a lifetime thinking like that, deluding yourself into believing what you want...
    How can you trust your own perceptions when it comes to the issues you vote on?
    The people you vote for- sheriff, governor... President...
    If your mind is conditioned to reject basic reality and embrace fantasy, how can you reasonably weigh in on issues such as Public Education?

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should be blocked from voting or even from living your life as you choose. Quite the opposite actually, I'll fight very hard to ensure you have that right to do so.

    But understand this: By not questioning your core beliefs, you enable yourself to treat all other issues the same way. The issues you can directly impact and influence by voting, speaking out, talking to others, whether in a protest, a crowd or a congregation.
    All these voters, such as yourself- voting on real issues such as foreign policy, budget demands within the government and representatives of us.
    Real issues such as science funding, NASA, local laws, even... and education.
    Issues that affect me- my life- my kids.

    So when I dare question your beliefs as I do here- make no mistake. I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm attacking you as an idealist- one that has positioned himself to ignore the real issues because he has unsubstantiated faith and as such, you are a minor threat to my rights, my lifestyle and my kids lives.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  85. #84  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Saying a prayer in time of need is one way to connect with God. However, for me, more commonly the "connection" involves God either teaching me something, or just letting me know that I am not facing life alone.

    Last Sunday was like that. I heard a sermon that seemed to deal with an issue I was concerned about. Then after spending time reading a really intriquing zombie book called "Warm Bodies" (movie comes out Feb. 1), I checked the surf report and the waves were perfect for me (waste to stomach).

    However, when I got to the beach, the fog was so dense that I could not tell if anyone was out. It might sound chicken shit to another surfer, but the zombie book creeped me out with the fog.

    However, after I paddled out I met another surfer and we surfed together in the fog. It was just cool on that day to not be alone.

    How that happens, I don't know. However, it happens again and again. God always seems to find away to let me know that I am never alone.
    Absolutely!
    In fact only last night God saved me from falling down a 500-ft cliff when I inadvertently tripped.
    He made sure I that was actually at home and not within miles of any such cliff, so that all I did was bounce off the wall and knock over a pile of books.
    Although I was truly shaken by such a close shave I knew that God had fixed it so that I wasn't near a cliff.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  86. #85  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Absolutely!
    In fact only last night God saved me from falling down a 500-ft cliff when I inadvertently tripped.
    He made sure I that was actually at home and not within miles of any such cliff, so that all I did was bounce off the wall and knock over a pile of books.
    Although I was truly shaken by such a close shave I knew that God had fixed it so that I wasn't near a cliff.
    So that was YOU!!!
    Thanks a LOT, buddy! Because of you, a cliff suddenly appeared in my living room last night.

    I know now, where to send the medical bills.
    (Grumble, gripe)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  87. #86  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Saying a prayer in time of need is one way to connect with God. However, for me, more commonly the "connection" involves God either teaching me something, or just letting me know that I am not facing life alone.

    Last Sunday was like that. I heard a sermon that seemed to deal with an issue I was concerned about. Then after spending time reading a really intriquing zombie book called "Warm Bodies" (movie comes out Feb. 1), I checked the surf report and the waves were perfect for me (waste to stomach).

    However, when I got to the beach, the fog was so dense that I could not tell if anyone was out. It might sound chicken shit to another surfer, but the zombie book creeped me out with the fog.

    However, after I paddled out I met another surfer and we surfed together in the fog. It was just cool on that day to not be alone.

    How that happens, I don't know. However, it happens again and again. God always seems to find away to let me know that I am never alone.
    The more I think about this post the more I realise that it strikes me as particularly odious. It highlights some basic self-centredness in believers.
    You claim that god sent someone to relieve you of your self-induced (but see later note) fear of "zombies" in the fog...
    How many people died in pain around the world at that moment?
    How many went through any other form of ACTUAL suffering?
    Yet god took time out and paid special attention to you?
    WTF?

    Further comment: if you're going to be so... ignorant (it's the only word I can come up with) on the realities of statistics and ascribe "god" to the fact that someone else just happened to be surfing on what you describe as "perfect waves" (wow! How unlikely is THAT going to be?) then how come you don't also hold god responsible for the fact that you chose to read that particular book? Or chose to make it foggy, thus inducing this fear?
    Cake and eat it, anyone?
    seagypsy and Neverfly like this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  88. #87  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    So what would you say if it turned out that you went to a public place and no one else was there?
    Would you then say that God was there for you?
    But since someone was there (at a public place), you claim that God worked through that guy...

    Does God also work through serial killers? Of course, then, you will probably say that's not God.

    Do you really not see how absolutely absurd that is? It's like taking the imaginary friend to a whole new level.

    Of course, you have no evidence that your claims have any basis in reality, you simply want to believe it- so you do believe it.

    If you spend a lifetime thinking like that, deluding yourself into believing what you want...
    How can you trust your own perceptions when it comes to the issues you vote on?
    The people you vote for- sheriff, governor... President...
    If your mind is conditioned to reject basic reality and embrace fantasy, how can you reasonably weigh in on issues such as Public Education?

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you should be blocked from voting or even from living your life as you choose. Quite the opposite actually, I'll fight very hard to ensure you have that right to do so.

    But understand this: By not questioning your core beliefs, you enable yourself to treat all other issues the same way. The issues you can directly impact and influence by voting, speaking out, talking to others, whether in a protest, a crowd or a congregation.
    All these voters, such as yourself- voting on real issues such as foreign policy, budget demands within the government and representatives of us.
    Real issues such as science funding, NASA, local laws, even... and education.
    Issues that affect me- my life- my kids.

    So when I dare question your beliefs as I do here- make no mistake. I'm not attacking you as a person, I'm attacking you as an idealist- one that has positioned himself to ignore the real issues because he has unsubstantiated faith and as such, you are a minor threat to my rights, my lifestyle and my kids lives.
    Foreign policy? Budget? I am not sure that what I am thinking about at the beach has a major effect on these issues.

    I actually subsribe to Foreign Policy magazine ; however, I confess that I don't read it much. Regarding the budget, I am actively reading on controlling entitlement costs. The last time I read an article on this was within the last 48h and hopefully get time to look at some more material today or tomorrow.

    I don't see a conflict that you see. Believers often ascribe every good thing as coming from God. We thank Him often.
    In fact, I try to remember to start the day thanking God in advance.

    So if I experience a good thing and attribute it to God, that is a normal believer thought process.

    The zombie book is intriguing because in this book a group of humans and zombies team up to cure the zombies. The book implies metaphorically that much of our current humanity is living in a state of "walking dead".

    My interest in the book is because I have independently reached a similar conclusion. I believe that to different degrees, most of us are "zombies" and this state may be a risk factor for human conflict.

    If we could "cure" this state, then conflict could conceivably be prevented.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  89. #88  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    I don't see a conflict that you see. Believers often ascribe every good thing as coming from God. We thank Him often.
    The issue I have with this is that it's a confirmation bias. The question left behind is; What about the bad?
    The conditioning here is one in which, over time, you learn to disr5egard or ignore a great deal of what is going on in the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    The zombie book is intriguing because in this book a group of humans and zombies team up to cure the zombies. The book implies metaphorically that much of our current humanity is living in a state of "walking dead".

    My interest in the book is because I have independently reached a similar conclusion. I believe that to different degrees, most of us are "zombies" and this state may be a risk factor for human conflict.

    If we could "cure" this state, then conflict could conceivably be prevented.
    This is the most frightening thing I've ever read. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt as to what you think this "cure" for humanity may be...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  90. #89  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Frightening? For sure every action has a risk that should be considered. However, doing nothing is also an action with a risk.

    It is said that the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

    Personally, I am wondering if the "cure" is just to periodically let someone know that we support each other in some selfless way where nothing is expected in return. As a believer, I would include just letting someone know that he / she can connect with God in this life, and experience the feeling of "not being alone" on a regular basis.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  91. #90  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Frightening? For sure every action has a risk that should be considered. However, doing nothing is also an action with a risk.

    It is said that the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
    All of this is reasonable, so let me clarify why I used the adjective, "Frightening."

    You said we're like mindless zombies- Why is that? What makes you think that?
    Simply put, your perspective of humanity as zombies could have some interesting ramifications.
    Now, to be clear, I think something very similar and we could be on the same page, here. But I'll explain my P.O.V. later. But considering those ramifications, if there's something that you think needs curing... I think you can see the cause for hairs to rise on the back of ones neck, there.
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Personally, I am wondering if the "cure" is just to periodically let someone know that we support each other in some selfless way where nothing is expected in return.
    Now, that's not frightening at all. I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    As a believer, I would include just letting someone know that he / she can connect with God in this life, and experience the feeling of "not being alone" on a regular basis.
    But this is. If I were to one day lean on you for emotional support, you'll have to go about it another way

    I'd suggest you go about it by making pointed observations about how I might go about resolving what's troubling me.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  92. #91  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    NeverFly:
    If you spend a lifetime thinking like that, deluding yourself into believing what you want...
    How can you trust your own perceptions when it comes to the issues you vote on?
    The people you vote for- sheriff, governor... President...
    If your mind is conditioned to reject basic reality and embrace fantasy, how can you reasonably weigh in on issues such as Public Education?
    this is a better exmple than you think..
    how do we make our decisions on how to vote?
    we get as much info as possible. then choose a candidate..
    now, think about this:
    how do we 'know' that what the politician claims is true? (his promises)(is he gonna do what he says he is gonna do)
    there comes a certain point where we do not know who we are truly voting for..
    this is a matter of faith and belief.
    we choose the candidate because we believe him to be the best candidate (is there a 'none of the above' button?)
    (my bro in law, has the political gene..he can sort through issues and candidates like it was cake..)
    no matter how much info you can get on a candidate there is always the chance that he will not be the best candidate..
    not to mention the potential for a good candidate to sucumb to the political pressures that exist..(iow if he didnt start out corrupted,he will eventually be corrupted.(i use the term corrupted loosely)

    NOW..
    God is different..
    all we know of God we know through religion.
    its like getting info for a candidate from only one source..
    there are other sources but ppl tend to focus(argue) on the religious definition of God..
    ..what other source is there?..the bible is a good start..this is where religion gets their info from..why cant we utilize it without religions input?
    why do we need religion to interpret the bible?
    what makes their answer the only one?..
    but i digress..

    this is an apt metaphor as to why/how i believe.

    i sought all the info i could about God..
    then made a decision to believe.
    (well it wasn't an imediate decision..took a few years)
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  93. #92  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Strong points Squirrel.
    But I made strong points as well. Your argument addresses how some people go about it. And that's good.
    But I can make a counter argument with examples about how others go about it...
    The point isn't to reject, but to examine the beliefs.
    KALSTER likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  94. #93  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Personally, I am wondering if the "cure" is just to periodically let someone know that we support each other in some selfless way where nothing is expected in return. As a believer, I would include just letting someone know that he / she can connect with God in this life, and experience the feeling of "not being alone" on a regular basis.
    Why would you think that introducing someone to your imaginary friend is a "cure" for anything?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  95. #94  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Frightening? For sure every action has a risk that should be considered. However, doing nothing is also an action with a risk.

    It is said that the only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
    All of this is reasonable, so let me clarify why I used the adjective, "Frightening."

    You said we're like mindless zombies- Why is that? What makes you think that?
    Simply put, your perspective of humanity as zombies could have some interesting ramifications.
    Now, to be clear, I think something very similar and we could be on the same page, here. But I'll explain my P.O.V. later. But considering those ramifications, if there's something that you think needs curing... I think you can see the cause for hairs to rise on the back of ones neck, there.
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Personally, I am wondering if the "cure" is just to periodically let someone know that we support each other in some selfless way where nothing is expected in return.
    Now, that's not frightening at all. I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    As a believer, I would include just letting someone know that he / she can connect with God in this life, and experience the feeling of "not being alone" on a regular basis.
    But this is. If I were to one day lean on you for emotional support, you'll have to go about it another way

    I'd suggest you go about it by making pointed observations about how I might go about resolving what's troubling me.
    Re: "Zombies" is based on gaps between actual and ideal individual or collective behavior. Each of us has our own interpretation of what "ideal" involves. For example, there is a huge gap between myself and someone like Mother Teresa. Thus, I am more of a "zombie" than Mother Teresa.

    If there is such a phenomena a collective "zombie state" then we would need to discuss some things about what are the symptoms, how people get that way, and of course, whether or not such a state can it be reversed.

    My concern is related to our collective history of interstate violence. I subscribe to a minority opinion (that I hope is wrong) that suggests that interstate violence is caused by accumulation of some unknown "tension" in the international system. If this perspective has merit, then the system could be more unstable as time goes on -- especially in about ~30 years or so.

    I was wondering if such a "tension" exists, if the root of this "tension" is in the mind, and therefore could be changed with some sort of a training exercise / activity.

    If there is such a "tension" then some insights might be gained from studying peaceful societies to see what people in these societies do or don't do.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  96. #95  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    597
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Personally, I am wondering if the "cure" is just to periodically let someone know that we support each other in some selfless way where nothing is expected in return. As a believer, I would include just letting someone know that he / she can connect with God in this life, and experience the feeling of "not being alone" on a regular basis.
    Why would you think that introducing someone to your imaginary friend is a "cure" for anything?
    The answer depends on whether or not a person is a believer. From a believer's perspective, societal problems cannot be solved apart from God.

    However, how to encourage people to move closer to God without linking church and state in ways that we know are problematic is unknown. However, the record of linking state activity to atheism is also not good. Thus, my perspective of encouraging people to move closer to God is not related to any activity of any state except to say that states should not interfere with freedom to practice religion.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  97. #96  
    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Dogbox in front of Dywyddyr's house.
    Posts
    1,784
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    Saying a prayer in time of need is one way to connect with God. However, for me, more commonly the "connection" involves God either teaching me something, or just letting me know that I am not facing life alone.

    Last Sunday was like that. I heard a sermon that seemed to deal with an issue I was concerned about. Then after spending time reading a really intriquing zombie book called "Warm Bodies" (movie comes out Feb. 1), I checked the surf report and the waves were perfect for me (waste to stomach).

    However, when I got to the beach, the fog was so dense that I could not tell if anyone was out. It might sound chicken shit to another surfer, but the zombie book creeped me out with the fog.

    However, after I paddled out I met another surfer and we surfed together in the fog. It was just cool on that day to not be alone.

    How that happens, I don't know. However, it happens again and again. God always seems to find away to let me know that I am never alone.
    The more I think about this post the more I realise that it strikes me as particularly odious. It highlights some basic self-centredness in believers.
    You claim that god sent someone to relieve you of your self-induced (but see later note) fear of "zombies" in the fog...
    How many people died in pain around the world at that moment?
    How many went through any other form of ACTUAL suffering?
    Yet god took time out and paid special attention to you?
    WTF?

    Further comment: if you're going to be so... ignorant (it's the only word I can come up with) on the realities of statistics and ascribe "god" to the fact that someone else just happened to be surfing on what you describe as "perfect waves" (wow! How unlikely is THAT going to be?) then how come you don't also hold god responsible for the fact that you chose to read that particular book? Or chose to make it foggy, thus inducing this fear?
    Cake and eat it, anyone?
    My apologies if I have misconstrued your meaning on the word "believers". However, if a deity exists, for me it would have to be an impersonal one. This completely throws out the argument of human suffering as evidence against the existence of a deity. I simply cannot believe in a personal God who would allow tens of thousands of children to die of starvation, malnutrition, and preventable disease. In fact, I think the existence of disease itself could be a valid argument against the existence of a personal deity. The only concept I can embrace of God, is of an intelligent entity that created the physical laws that govern the universe, and that plays no personal role in human affairs.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  98. #97  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Apocalyptic Paradise
    Posts
    6,613
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post

    Re: "Zombies" is based on gaps between actual and ideal individual or collective behavior. Each of us has our own interpretation of what "ideal" involves. For example, there is a huge gap between myself and someone like Mother Teresa. Thus, I am more of a "zombie" than Mother Teresa.

    If there is such a phenomena a collective "zombie state" then we would need to discuss some things about what are the symptoms, how people get that way, and of course, whether or not such a state can it be reversed.

    My concern is related to our collective history of interstate violence. I subscribe to a minority opinion (that I hope is wrong) that suggests that interstate violence is caused by accumulation of some unknown "tension" in the international system. If this perspective has merit, then the system could be more unstable as time goes on -- especially in about ~30 years or so.

    I was wondering if such a "tension" exists, if the root of this "tension" is in the mind, and therefore could be changed with some sort of a training exercise / activity.

    If there is such a "tension" then some insights might be gained from studying peaceful societies to see what people in these societies do or don't do.
    I have an entirely different set of ideals than Mother Theresa. I'm most certainly not a 'zombie' because of it. I could make a strong case, by your example, that mother Theresa was actually more of one of your 'zombies' than me.
    "ideals" aren't the problem, understanding the reality around us is far more important. That said, it's more probable that building accurate models of reality would be far more conducive to inspiring 'peace' than in searching for high ideals about which we have only faith to guide us.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  99. #98  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Scunthorpe, UK
    Posts
    10,680
    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    For example, there is a huge gap between myself and someone like Mother Teresa.
    Good, because the last thing we need is some psycho who thinks the suffering of others will help her/ him regain his/ her lost faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by dedo View Post
    The answer depends on whether or not a person is a believer. From a believer's perspective, societal problems cannot be solved apart from God.
    In which case the first thing you'd have to do is demonstrate that's true. And then start teaching others to abrogate all responsibility for ourselves.

    However, how to encourage people to move closer to God without linking church and state in ways that we know are problematic is unknown. However, the record of linking state activity to atheism is also not good. Thus, my perspective of encouraging people to move closer to God is not related to any activity of any state except to say that states should not interfere with freedom to practice religion.
    Yes, way to avoid the question. Where did I mention "state"?
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; January 17th, 2013 at 08:59 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  100. #99  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,225
    dedo

    I don't see a conflict that you see. Believers often ascribe every good thing as coming from God. We thank Him often.
    In fact, I try to remember to start the day thanking God in advance.

    So if I experience a good thing and attribute it to God, that is a normal believer thought process.

    .....
    My interest in the book is because I have independently reached a similar conclusion. I believe that to different degrees, most of us are "zombies" and this state may be a risk factor for human conflict.
    Well, I believe the habit of gratitude is a good one. But I see no good reason why anyone should thank any particular god. I make a habit of acknowledging to myself all the things in my life and around me - and that's enough. I don't have to thank a god or appease a testy deity in the local hills or river because of these good things. (I might add I have a profound distaste for people who claim that nastiness and filth and the contents of rubbish bins are the real reality of life. They are simply the bad things about life. It's psychologically healthy to concentrate on the good while you try to reduce the bad.)

    As for people, I think most of us are "zombies" is an absolutely terrible way to look at people, whether they're around you or totally unknown. All of us have the potential to do better and to be better than we are. The best way to go about this is with a good education system. Whether you think of that as merely the provision of education to children or extend it to include public education campaigns about vaccination or driving or workplace safety or alcohol or sun protection or domestic violence or avoiding financial scammers - it all leads to people leading better lives and making better decisions.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  101. #100  
    Nut Hunter.. NMSquirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Four Corners area
    Posts
    441
    But I see no good reason why anyone should thank any particular god.
    because some times i dont have any one else to thank.
    The term 'Free' in Free thinking, does not imply control....
    Intelligence is being able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
    God is not inside the box.
    http://squirrels-nest.proboards.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •