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Thread: Secular law is better than Religious law.

  1. #1 Secular law is better than Religious law. 
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    Secular law is better than Religious law.

    Laws like all other things evolves.

    We now have the laws of differing religions to compare with laws of secular governments.

    After doing a scan of these various systems of laws, I have concluded that secular laws seems to be more moral than religious law.

    Most religions seem to be religions of exclusion instead of inclusion. Us against them. Turn or burn type of religions.

    Most secular laws seems to be more universal and try to include more of itís population while justifying or allowing some level of freedom for itís people.

    This being the case, Secularism will eventually win the hearts and minds of more of the population and will eventually become the religion of choice, if I may use that term, for the whole world.

    Am I right in this or would someone like to show where religious law is superior to secular law?

    A good starting point might be to speak to the issues of Gays, the equality of woman and the treatment of slaves.

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    DL


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  3. #2 Re: Secular law is better than Religious law. 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    In a free society, it had better be, because secular law is the one that is enforced with serious penalties. Religious law is essentially voluntary and the worst penalties you can find are those of the Amish in shunning. Well.... maybe we can find cults that lock their members up in defended compounds where the penalties are worse than this.



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  4. #3 Re: Secular law is better than Religious law. 
    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    In a free society, it had better be, because secular law is the one that is enforced with serious penalties. Religious law is essentially voluntary and the worst penalties you can find are those of the Amish in shunning. Well.... maybe we can find cults that lock their members up in defended compounds where the penalties are worse than this.
    Religious law has only become the less important/cruel recently. When religious law was the law, people were being persecuted all the time for pathetic crimes. look at some fo the executions in muslim countries for a modern day example.

    In countries where secular law is enforced, yes, religious law is voluntary and peaceful, because they cannot make it any other way.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  5. #4 Re: Secular law is better than Religious law. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    In a free society, it had better be, because secular law is the one that is enforced with serious penalties. Religious law is essentially voluntary and the worst penalties you can find are those of the Amish in shunning. Well.... maybe we can find cults that lock their members up in defended compounds where the penalties are worse than this.



    moderator note: responding to this thread is an alternative way I can make you abide by the one post without responses rule. Next time why don't you consider adding your new ideas in a post to a thread you have already started that has no responses to it. It is only fair that you limit your attempt to dominate the religion section by simply bumping your thread to the top. OK?
    I like my abuse of stupidity to spread to all who practice it, like here.

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...32425961&hl=en

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    DL
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  6. #5 Re: Secular law is better than Religious law. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    In a free society, it had better be, because secular law is the one that is enforced with serious penalties. Religious law is essentially voluntary and the worst penalties you can find are those of the Amish in shunning. Well.... maybe we can find cults that lock their members up in defended compounds where the penalties are worse than this.



    moderator note: responding to this thread is an alternative way I can make you abide by the one post without responses rule. Next time why don't you consider adding your new ideas in a post to a thread you have already started that has no responses to it. It is only fair that you limit your attempt to dominate the religion section by simply bumping your thread to the top. OK?
    I was not aware of that rule. I will take care. Thanks.

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    DL
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    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    the problem with this is that almost all secular law is based upon Biblical law;

    thou shalt not steal
    thou shalt not kill

    and so on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    the problem with this is that almost all secular law is based upon Biblical law;

    thou shalt not steal
    thou shalt not kill

    and so on.
    All laws that exists, be it religious or secular, was first spoken by a man.

    This makes our first laws secular.

    If man was given dominion or has dominion over the earth then man has and is to make the laws.

    Case in point. If God said not to kill then this great law maker would not do so. Scripture on the other hand shows him killing to the point of genocide. Would you think the laws of God to be good laws when even He cannot live by them?

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  9. #8 Re: Secular law is better than Religious law. 
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Secular law is better than Religious law.
    In a free society, it had better be, because secular law is the one that is enforced with serious penalties. Religious law is essentially voluntary and the worst penalties you can find are those of the Amish in shunning. Well.... maybe we can find cults that lock their members up in defended compounds where the penalties are worse than this.
    Religious law has only become the less important/cruel recently. When religious law was the law, people were being persecuted all the time for pathetic crimes. look at some fo the executions in muslim countries for a modern day example.

    In countries where secular law is enforced, yes, religious law is voluntary and peaceful, because they cannot make it any other way.
    Good one.

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    DL
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    All laws that exists, be it religious or secular, was first spoken by a man.
    wrong again. all law came from God not man. some people pervert those laws for their own gain but man is not the source of law for that would be too subjective.

    with no ultimate standard, there is no right or wrong and you would not be able to condemn Hitler, Bush, Stalin and so many other leaders or governments.

    If man was given dominion or has dominion over the earth then man has and is to make the laws
    wrong, for their has to be a source for laws and man would not have any conception of what law was unless God instituted it first. we see that in the garden of eden with adam and then next with the punishment of cain.

    God does not enforce human law for then he would be submitting to it and He would not be God and He would not be able to judge anyone for He would not have His laws established in the world to do so.

    In other words, He could not send the flood for the people were obeying their laws and not sinning, but since they disobeyed God's laws, He could do so.

    Case in point. If God said not to kill then this great law maker would not do so. Scripture on the other hand shows him killing to the point of genocide
    Wrong again, for 'killing' is not always murder nor is it genocide but PUNISHMENT. you are saying that God is not allowed to punish His creation for their disobedience and that would be heretical.

    Would you think the laws of God to be good laws when even He cannot live by them?
    He does live by them, yo justdo not see it. the 7th day of creation shows us that he lives by them and provides the correct example for humans to follow.
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  11. #10  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    Are laws really necessary?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    Reptile Dysfunction drowsy turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    All laws that exists, be it religious or secular, was first spoken by a man.
    wrong again. all law came from God not man. some people pervert those laws for their own gain but man is not the source of law for that would be too subjective.

    with no ultimate standard, there is no right or wrong and you would not be able to condemn Hitler, Bush, Stalin and so many other leaders or governments.
    You clearly haven't read some fo the laws which I think 'god' wrote when he was high on drugs.

    'Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn'

    'If two men are fighting and the wife of one decides to help her husband by taking unto her hands the genetals of the other man, show her no mercy; but off her hand.'

    'If you are in your neighbours vineyard, you may eat as many grapes as you like'

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    If man was given dominion or has dominion over the earth then man has and is to make the laws
    wrong, for their has to be a source for laws and man would not have any conception of what law was unless God instituted it first. we see that in the garden of eden with adam and then next with the punishment of cain.
    We can 'see' it can we? And there was me thinking it was just something I read in a book. Have it on film, do you?

    God did not tell us about quantum mechanics, but we developed that concept on our own. Electricity, atoms, everything really. All we get from religion is a warm fuzzy feeling inside that we are better then everyone else.

    New laws are always being created. Are you saying 'god' makes all the laws? How about muslim laws? Laws for any other religion?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    God does not enforce human law for then he would be submitting to it and He would not be God and He would not be able to judge anyone for He would not have His laws established in the world to do so.
    So... god ignores us, you are saying?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    In other words, He could not send the flood for the people were obeying their laws and not sinning, but since they disobeyed God's laws, He could do so.
    Really? I've disobeyed loads of his laws, but I haven't got hit by lightning yet. Or floods.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Case in point. If God said not to kill then this great law maker would not do so. Scripture on the other hand shows him killing to the point of genocide
    Wrong again, for 'killing' is not always murder nor is it genocide but PUNISHMENT. you are saying that God is not allowed to punish His creation for their disobedience and that would be heretical.
    Are doctors allowed to punish IVF babies for disobeying them?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    Would you think the laws of God to be good laws when even He cannot live by them?
    He does live by them, yo justdo not see it. the 7th day of creation shows us that he lives by them and provides the correct example for humans to follow.
    [/quote]

    Since 'god' has never been observed by anyone without mental illness, I'm thinking we probably haven't seen evidence of him following his own laws. Assuming they are his laws, and weren't just made up when the bible was written in 250-400 BC.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    You clearly haven't read some fo the laws which I think 'god' wrote when he was high on drugs.
    ignored. not taking the bait or flaming.

    We can 'see' it can we? And there was me thinking it was just something I read in a book. Have it on film, do you?
    ignored. stupidity is not charming.

    God did not tell us about quantum mechanics, but we developed that concept on our own. Electricity, atoms, everything really. All we get from religion is a warm fuzzy feeling inside that we are better then everyone else
    You would be wrong. Why do you think He gave us minds for? to be spoon fed? all man is doing is discovering what is already there, man didn't develope anything.

    New laws are always being created. Are you saying 'god' makes all the laws? How about muslim laws? Laws for any other religion
    maybe i should have said 'based upon' i figured people here had intelligence.

    the rest of your post is ignored as it shows arrogance and idiocy. both of which are not worth addressing.
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    Ignorance is bliss...
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    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, is this the wrong thread?

    or was I right in assuming this was not a debate about laws but one about the existence of god?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    archaeologist

    Your slave mentality is firm.

    If genocide of man is a good thing for your unseen and unproven God then both of you are traitor to humanity.

    Jews do not follow Hitler.
    If you want to follow your three headed mythical genocidal fool the do so boy.

    If you ever grow to manhood and put away your imaginary talking snakes and ten headed monsters then come and reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    Are laws really necessary?
    All laws are permission and indeed compulsion to discriminate against certain sub sections of society. Some of us should be discriminated against. The criminal element and such.

    Imagine no laws on our roads. Carnage.

    Laws protect those who are more civilized.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Ignorance is bliss...
    Good thinking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    I'm sorry, is this the wrong thread?

    or was I right in assuming this was not a debate about laws but one about the existence of god?
    At present it speaks to the source of law.

    Some believe that to use genocide on man is a good law.

    I believe the better law is man's on this.
    Man and Secular law shows reverence for human life. It seems that God does not.

    Did you have an issue to bring up?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    So speaks a foolish man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    So speaks a foolish man.

    Regards
    DL
    so speaks the snake avatar guy who talk alot of crap, what is your agenda? to prove thesist and their god are genocides. :LOL:. you threads are always stupid and always result in arguments for you entertainment.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    So speaks a foolish man.

    Regards
    DL
    so speaks the snake avatar guy who talk alot of crap, what is your agenda? to prove thesist and their god are genocides.
    Learn from the ancients fool. They recognized the wisdom of the talking snake.
    Without it Adam and Eve would be alone in the garden and you would not be here. I like that idea but then, none of us would be here.

    He is responsible for your moral sense. You should venerate it.
    He is a gift from God.

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    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    So speaks a foolish man.

    Regards
    DL
    so speaks the snake avatar guy who talk alot of crap, what is your agenda? to prove thesist and their god are genocides.
    Learn from the ancients fool. They recognized the wisdom of the talking snake.
    Without it Adam and Eve would be alone in the garden and you would not be here. I like that idea but then, none of us would be here.

    He is responsible for your moral sense. You should venerate it.
    He is a gift from God.

    Regards
    DL
    SILENCE, AROGANT FOOL! you always attack theist , call them rapist, genocidal manics and incest. you make this kind of thread and every other same form of thread for your entertainment.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    this discussion is stupid and will result in both thesist and athesist in argueing about a stupid subject. CLOSE THIS THREAD.
    So speaks a foolish man.

    Regards
    DL
    so speaks the snake avatar guy who talk alot of crap, what is your agenda? to prove thesist and their god are genocides.
    Learn from the ancients fool. They recognized the wisdom of the talking snake.
    Without it Adam and Eve would be alone in the garden and you would not be here. I like that idea but then, none of us would be here.

    He is responsible for your moral sense. You should venerate it.
    He is a gift from God.

    Regards
    DL
    SILENCE, AROGANT FOOL! you always attack theist , call them rapist, genocidal manics and incest. you make this kind of thread and every other same form of thread for your entertainment.
    Not them. just their God.

    Eh, I do not recall anywhere saying that he was a rapist. He did use another mans woman to produce a chimera.

    I did not say that they were involved in incest although I am certain that some are.

    I did say that their God set things up where incest had to be to get the population going as far as their myths go. I am right in this.

    I also said that if the three headed God used Mary, his own mother to reproduce then this too is incest. I would be right on this as well.

    That their God is a genocidal maniac is also a truth. They say it is justice. LOL

    Those who do are as foolish as you are.

    Prove any point wrong and you get a prize. I will bow to your wisdom. Do not and all here will know just how foolish you are.

    Regards
    DL
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    i have given up, i can not bare argueing with you again and again and again. and you not right in anything you lack biblical understanding and anger me alot. you soo persistant in imposing you veiw , even do you are wrong. shame.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i have given up, i can not bare argueing with you again and again and again. and you not right in anything you lack biblical understanding and anger me alot. you soo persistant in imposing you veiw , even do you are wrong. shame.
    I read this as you saying, you are wrong bit I can't prove it so before I prove how stupid I am I will go away.

    Good, I prefer speaking to people who can reason.

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    DL
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    "greatest I am" you condescended someone for their "slave mentality"

    You apparently have a leader mentality. I heard in another thread someone talking trash about religious followers because of their pompous attitudes. This goes to show the pompousness is omnipotent. If you don't have an understanding of psychology, sociology or magnets: opposites atract. My point is that Tyrants create Slaves, not the other way around. And you sir are a tyrant, preaching rationality and civilization but it seems you don't make any attempt to promote logical discourse or culture. You don't seem interested in the subject, you seem interested in seeing your own words outnumber other people's.
    Dick, be Frank.

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    All laws are permission and indeed compulsion to discriminate against certain sub sections of society. Some of us should be discriminated against. The criminal element and such.

    Imagine no laws on our roads. Carnage.

    Laws protect those who are more civilized.
    bold done by me

    "Savage" tribes have laws, not written but passed down from ancestors, they were not decided one day and are not meant to always be. They are merely what worked in the past to keep the tribe whole and peaceful. To imply that only civilized folk have laws or profit by laws seems to be a misinterpretation of the facts. Civilized people are better able to take advantage of laws having more education and/or finances, but this does not mean law is on their side, law is on the side of the society as a whole, without law there is no society.

    Do I need to remind you of the power of the loophole? It is so renowned in legal matters thousands of years old that it has forced us to evolve a legal terminology that may as well be an alien language to the vast majority of citizens punished for non-violent crimes that don't effect anybody. Savage tribes have simple laws with one goal in mind: to exact injustices done to members of the tribe in order to keep things peaceful. The chief decides punishment based on facts and ancestral law. Ancestral law is open to interpretation of course, but the chief would not be chief for long if he decided contrary to the tribes opinion and to defended his own idea of the law. His job as chief is not to uphold the law as though it is it's own being, but to keep the tribe whole. If the tribe changes over time, the laws change with them. Society was not made for law, law was made for society. If society changes, law must change too. Law doesn't change society to suit the purpose of the law. Addiction, domestic violence and prejudice are three examples of things that laws cannot change but that doesn't stop them from trying and in turn making the problems worse.

    These problems can only be changed by individuals and groups taking action to help and educate each other. Making a new law saying "you can't hit your wife" is like saying "you can't have an complex relationship" because it is the complexities in a relationship that creates such situations that domestic violence occurs in. Obviously some relationships are not meant to be, but then why do they last? Because people are alienated for whatever reasons. We need to make a more public society, so that people are not alienated, and then we can deal with issues collectively, instead of passing the bar, excuse the pun, to someone else.

    Some believe that to use genocide on man is a good law.

    I believe the better law is man's on this.
    Man and Secular law shows reverence for human life. It seems that God does not.
    It is hard to ignore the predominance of psychopaths in positions of power. They USE ideals, whether they are religious or secular, to gain favor wherever they go. They lack empathy but possess an amazing ability to observe and read people, much like an autistic kid that lacks social skills but is very talented in other ways, except psychopaths find their way to power. They might be responsible for much of this bloodshed throughout history, they themselves just feed into whatever popular opinion there is at the time, fueling it and guiding it to express their own inner conflicts.

    What about the hybridized nations? If a religion had no mind for the secular they wouldn't organize but would remain a wandering cult like the ancient Taoists, Vedas, Roma, some artists and some philosophers, Buddhists and other people who let the wind carry them. Christianity, especially Catholicism, Judaism and Muslim are good examples of secular and religious hybrids, although they preach religion, much of their religion has to do with proper worldly activity. Hinduism is probably the best example of a secular/religious hybrid, with a very strict although lessening class based society. Examples of purely secular nations are China, North Korea, Russia. America claims to be secularist but still holds onto traditional ways of doing things, traditions that find their origins in religion.
    Everyone in some way or other holds onto some tradition, if not traditional way of thinking.

    Secular nations and war leaders are responsible for much untold bloodshed as well as domination of the free spirit of man... which is worse?
    I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure all these folks were atheists
    Hitler
    Napoleon
    Stalin
    Moa
    Kim Jong-Il
    Alexander the great
    Achilies
    Ivan the Terrible
    Attila the hun
    Charles Manson


    and I'm also pretty sure you can add up all the deaths caused by the crusades and religious conflict and not have neerly the amount caused by secular wars and primarily capitalist-democracy. So where do you get this idea that genocide is a religious phenomena or accepted by religious folk?
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    Every time you find a flaw in a religion, they change the faith, say there is a mistranslation, 'explain' why their holy book has been misinterpreted, despite the fact that they themselves interpreted it that way for years. They don't generally care whether or not their belief is true. They just want to believe in something. So pick their religion apart untill it is meaningless. They'll just make a new one from whats left.

    My example; according to the dates used in the bible, the world is around 6000 years old. This was considered absolute fact untill a couple of hundred years ago, when it turned out that the ancient egyptian civilisation outdated creation. Was the christian faith destroyed? No. They just said the bible was not to be taken so literally, and that there were mistranslations, mumbled something that sounded convincing, and got on with it. Even when geological evidence shows the Earth to be 4.6 billion years old, they just make up something about god making the earth old, presumably because he's having a laugh at confusing us.

    My point is, those who follow a faith blindly, are blind. They won't accept change, no matter how convincing the proof.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
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    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
    Well done, some laws from the bible aren't bad.

    How about this, though;

    'If two men are fighting and the wife of one decides to help her husband by taking in her hands the genetals of the other man, show her no mercy; cut off her hand'

    ^^from somewhere in deuteronomy. Nice, eh? I suppose god saw it happening a lot.

    How about the laws against homosexuality, the laws that allow slaves, the laws that allow poor treatment of women. How about the law where if you marry a woman who turns out not to be a virgin, she gets stoned to death?

    Thank god [/irony] for religious law, eh?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    All laws that exists, be it religious or secular, was first spoken by a man.
    wrong again. all law came from God not man. some people pervert those laws for their own gain but man is not the source of law for that would be too subjective.

    with no ultimate standard, there is no right or wrong and you would not be able to condemn Hitler, Bush, Stalin and so many other leaders or governments.

    If man was given dominion or has dominion over the earth then man has and is to make the laws
    wrong, for their has to be a source for laws and man would not have any conception of what law was unless God instituted it first. we see that in the garden of eden with adam and then next with the punishment of cain.

    God does not enforce human law for then he would be submitting to it and He would not be God and He would not be able to judge anyone for He would not have His laws established in the world to do so.

    In other words, He could not send the flood for the people were obeying their laws and not sinning, but since they disobeyed God's laws, He could do so.

    Case in point. If God said not to kill then this great law maker would not do so. Scripture on the other hand shows him killing to the point of genocide
    Wrong again, for 'killing' is not always murder nor is it genocide but PUNISHMENT. you are saying that God is not allowed to punish His creation for their disobedience and that would be heretical.

    Would you think the laws of God to be good laws when even He cannot live by them?
    He does live by them, yo justdo not see it. the 7th day of creation shows us that he lives by them and provides the correct example for humans to follow.
    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on. The 10 commandments were never a moses only thing. Look in history. All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened. In fact, I think hercules was based off of the Spartans and off of the Greek games.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
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    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on.
    you are wrong and that idea is just a myth. we have law codes dating back further than hammurabi and to believe that you must think that ancient man was a bunch of lawless people who had less morality than sodom and gomorrah.

    All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened.
    wrong again. you know very little of ancient documents and their date of writings. basically all ancient documents post date the Biblical books not pre-date them. plus it was the secular world which copied from the Bible not vice versa. we know that the ancient babylonians were great copyists and copied from everyone they came in contact with.1 The isralelites had no such reputation and no proof has ever been produced thatthey actually copied from another source.

    How about this, though;
    if you are not going to take the time to understand why such laws were written but stop only at the surface level then i am not going to take the time to explain it all to you. homosexuality is sin and a choice. Go made man to be with women not another man and homosexuality is a perversion of what God declared Good.

    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
    #1. no archaeological discovery has proven the Bible false
    #2. it is designed to be taken by faith, 'for without faith ye cannot please God' and we cannot provide physical proof for heaven or hell. if you refuse to use faith then you are in doubt and disbelieve God's word. if you cannot take God at his word then you have no options.
    the choice is yours but it must be done by faith or you are going about it all wrong. at some point you have to choose, but you have to do it God's way for it is His heaven, His salvation, His creation.
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    archaeologist, I suggest you stop debating with these people. no matter what you say there won't listen to you and counter any point you put out.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    [quote="marcusclayman"]


    and I'm also pretty sure you can add up all the deaths caused by the crusades and religious conflict and not have neerly the amount caused by secular wars and primarily capitalist-democracy. So where do you get this idea that genocide is a religious phenomena or accepted by religious folk?
    I get that idea from the fact that Christians and others have forgiven Jesus/God for his genocide against man. A sin of the highest order.

    Sort of like Jews following Hitler. Just too stupid for words.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
    The question is not who started law. I do not want history on this issue, I want a judgment call on the existing laws as they are today.

    Equality for woman, Gay rights, abortion, that type of thing.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
    The question is not who started law. I do not want history on this issue, I want a judgment call on the existing laws as they are today.

    Equality for woman, Gay rights, abortion, that type of thing.

    Regards
    DL
    ? fear me am a Christian.

    humans are genocidal manics and the best thing for this planet is extinction of humans
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
    The question is not who started law. I do not want history on this issue, I want a judgment call on the existing laws as they are today.

    Equality for woman, Gay rights, abortion, that type of thing.

    Regards
    DL
    ? fear me am a Christian.

    humans are genocidal manics and the best thing for this planet is extinction of humans
    Ask your God then traitor. He likes to kill men.

    You can go away any time now.

    We are done.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    my challenge to you is to look at all the Biblical laws and compare them to the secular ones and you will see how many secular ones are based upon Biblical teachings.

    'thou shalt not bear false witness'-- 1, lying to judges and juries, prosecutors. 2. withholding information, 3. making false accusations,
    ' thou shalt not steal'
    'thou shalt not kill'
    'thou shalt not covet'-- leads to adulteery,theft, lying, and so onn

    then the book of exodus chapters 21, 22, 23 lay out many social laws about resp., justice, property, and so on.

    we find these laws have their foundations way back in the garden of eden which predates all secular human attempts to write laws.
    The question is not who started law. I do not want history on this issue, I want a judgment call on the existing laws as they are today.

    Equality for woman, Gay rights, abortion, that type of thing.

    Regards
    DL
    ? fear me am a Christian.

    humans are genocidal manics and the best thing for this planet is extinction of humans
    Ask your God then traitor. He likes to kill men.

    You can go away any time now.

    We are done.

    Regards
    DL
    hahaha fool, why don't you ask him.
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on.
    you are wrong and that idea is just a myth. we have law codes dating back further than hammurabi and to believe that you must think that ancient man was a bunch of lawless people who had less morality than sodom and gomorrah.

    All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened.
    wrong again. you know very little of ancient documents and their date of writings. basically all ancient documents post date the Biblical books not pre-date them. plus it was the secular world which copied from the Bible not vice versa. we know that the ancient babylonians were great copyists and copied from everyone they came in contact with.1 The isralelites had no such reputation and no proof has ever been produced thatthey actually copied from another source.

    How about this, though;
    if you are not going to take the time to understand why such laws were written but stop only at the surface level then i am not going to take the time to explain it all to you. homosexuality is sin and a choice. Go made man to be with women not another man and homosexuality is a perversion of what God declared Good.

    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
    #1. no archaeological discovery has proven the Bible false
    #2. it is designed to be taken by faith, 'for without faith ye cannot please God' and we cannot provide physical proof for heaven or hell. if you refuse to use faith then you are in doubt and disbelieve God's word. if you cannot take God at his word then you have no options.
    the choice is yours but it must be done by faith or you are going about it all wrong. at some point you have to choose, but you have to do it God's way for it is His heaven, His salvation, His creation.
    Well, I guess my ancient history teacher who has a PHD in ancient history is completely wrong then, eh? What are your credentials? Everything you said is the exact opposite of what we were taught. In fact, Archaeologists have found no evidence for Moses walking the desert for 40 years or what not. Besides, no one can live in the desert for 40 years and live. Also, The red sea was never split. They never found any Egyptian weapons within the red sea. There are many who think that the Israelites went through the REED sea however, which isn't that fantastic. I hope you do realize that the bible has been altered and changed for centuries, whether you want to believe it or not. This world was not made in 7 days, This has been proven by geologists. In fact, the bible has extortions of the truth. The truth is in the bible, but then they make it into a fantastic tale. Instead of Jesus curing the blind, he actually helped the blind walk to different places. However, someone misunderstood the term helped and thought that it meant cured. The entire thing offers many many mistranslations. How can you trust anything it says?
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on.
    you are wrong and that idea is just a myth. we have law codes dating back further than hammurabi and to believe that you must think that ancient man was a bunch of lawless people who had less morality than sodom and gomorrah.

    All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened.
    wrong again. you know very little of ancient documents and their date of writings. basically all ancient documents post date the Biblical books not pre-date them. plus it was the secular world which copied from the Bible not vice versa. we know that the ancient babylonians were great copyists and copied from everyone they came in contact with.1 The isralelites had no such reputation and no proof has ever been produced thatthey actually copied from another source.

    How about this, though;
    if you are not going to take the time to understand why such laws were written but stop only at the surface level then i am not going to take the time to explain it all to you. homosexuality is sin and a choice. Go made man to be with women not another man and homosexuality is a perversion of what God declared Good.

    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
    #1. no archaeological discovery has proven the Bible false
    #2. it is designed to be taken by faith, 'for without faith ye cannot please God' and we cannot provide physical proof for heaven or hell. if you refuse to use faith then you are in doubt and disbelieve God's word. if you cannot take God at his word then you have no options.
    the choice is yours but it must be done by faith or you are going about it all wrong. at some point you have to choose, but you have to do it God's way for it is His heaven, His salvation, His creation.
    Well, I guess my ancient history teacher who has a PHD in ancient history is completely wrong then, eh? What are your credentials? Everything you said is the exact opposite of what we were taught. In fact, Archaeologists have found no evidence for Moses walking the desert for 40 years or what not. Besides, no one can live in the desert for 40 years and live. Also, The red sea was never split. They never found any Egyptian weapons within the red sea. There are many who think that the Israelites went through the REED sea however, which isn't that fantastic. I hope you do realize that the bible has been altered and changed for centuries, whether you want to believe it or not. This world was not made in 7 days, This has been proven by geologists. In fact, the bible has extortions of the truth. The truth is in the bible, but then they make it into a fantastic tale. Instead of Jesus curing the blind, he actually helped the blind walk to different places. However, someone misunderstood the term helped and thought that it meant cured. The entire thing offers many many mistranslations. How can you trust anything it says?
    what evidence do you claim that shows Jesus walking the blind to different places instead of healing? and lol you can trace evidence to find out if someone walked on the desert or not .
    verzin says: Christians believe in a god that murders kills people.......
    zeb replies:
    I see this argument as a typical pre-concept of people, which never showed a real interest to understand the bible, and the reason of certain things, why they happened. If i explain you, what Gods intent was, and the reason, these things happened, you will certainly come with the next argument, and then the next. And the final will be, no outcome, or change of opinion. I am quit sure, you have made up your mind already, don't you ?
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on.
    you are wrong and that idea is just a myth. we have law codes dating back further than hammurabi and to believe that you must think that ancient man was a bunch of lawless people who had less morality than sodom and gomorrah.
    Yet you don't follow them. Nobody does; they make little sense, and are generally accepted not to count as laws by modern christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened.
    wrong again. you know very little of ancient documents and their date of writings. basically all ancient documents post date the Biblical books not pre-date them. plus it was the secular world which copied from the Bible not vice versa. we know that the ancient babylonians were great copyists and copied from everyone they came in contact with.1 The isralelites had no such reputation and no proof has ever been produced thatthey actually copied from another source.
    Cave paintings around the world predate the bible, and in fact according to what is written int he bible, they predate creation.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    How about this, though;
    if you are not going to take the time to understand why such laws were written but stop only at the surface level then i am not going to take the time to explain it all to you. homosexuality is sin and a choice. Go made man to be with women not another man and homosexuality is a perversion of what God declared Good.
    You will find the christian world is somewhat conflicted on this issue. This, therefore, is your view and not the view of your faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
    #1. no archaeological discovery has proven the Bible false
    Nobody has ever proved that I am not made of cheese. What of it? Lack of proof against is not proof for.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    #2. it is designed to be taken by faith, 'for without faith ye cannot please God' and we cannot provide physical proof for heaven or hell.
    heh, there's a reason for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    if you refuse to use faith then you are in doubt and disbelieve God's word.
    God never spoke to me, only some psycho at church wearing a dress. God speaking directly to me, I would consider evidence for his existance. Or, more likely, my own mental illness.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    if you cannot take God at his word then you have no options.
    If god was offended he would do something about it. No god who is supposed to be perfect would want a load of followers who follow blindly like morons; he would give them reason to believe. Why have we not witnessed god, or any of his acts, since the bible was written? Could it be that the bible was not accurate? No, it must be coincidence. He must be testing how stupidly we will follow him, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    the choice is yours but it must be done by faith or you are going about it all wrong. at some point you have to choose, but you have to do it God's way for it is His heaven, His salvation, His creation.
    Prove it.

    Anyway, I thought I had no choice?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Quote Originally Posted by archaeologist
    I know I am a little late responding to this thread but hammurabi was the first man to create the laws which the 10 commandments were based on.
    you are wrong and that idea is just a myth. we have law codes dating back further than hammurabi and to believe that you must think that ancient man was a bunch of lawless people who had less morality than sodom and gomorrah.

    All the biblical myths are based on some sort of non-religious truth of something that actually happened.
    wrong again. you know very little of ancient documents and their date of writings. basically all ancient documents post date the Biblical books not pre-date them. plus it was the secular world which copied from the Bible not vice versa. we know that the ancient babylonians were great copyists and copied from everyone they came in contact with.1 The isralelites had no such reputation and no proof has ever been produced thatthey actually copied from another source.

    How about this, though;
    if you are not going to take the time to understand why such laws were written but stop only at the surface level then i am not going to take the time to explain it all to you. homosexuality is sin and a choice. Go made man to be with women not another man and homosexuality is a perversion of what God declared Good.

    How do you know the Bible is true? What about the Koran?
    #1. no archaeological discovery has proven the Bible false
    #2. it is designed to be taken by faith, 'for without faith ye cannot please God' and we cannot provide physical proof for heaven or hell. if you refuse to use faith then you are in doubt and disbelieve God's word. if you cannot take God at his word then you have no options.
    the choice is yours but it must be done by faith or you are going about it all wrong. at some point you have to choose, but you have to do it God's way for it is His heaven, His salvation, His creation.
    Well, I guess my ancient history teacher who has a PHD in ancient history is completely wrong then, eh? What are your credentials? Everything you said is the exact opposite of what we were taught. In fact, Archaeologists have found no evidence for Moses walking the desert for 40 years or what not. Besides, no one can live in the desert for 40 years and live. Also, The red sea was never split. They never found any Egyptian weapons within the red sea. There are many who think that the Israelites went through the REED sea however, which isn't that fantastic. I hope you do realize that the bible has been altered and changed for centuries, whether you want to believe it or not. This world was not made in 7 days, This has been proven by geologists. In fact, the bible has extortions of the truth. The truth is in the bible, but then they make it into a fantastic tale. Instead of Jesus curing the blind, he actually helped the blind walk to different places. However, someone misunderstood the term helped and thought that it meant cured. The entire thing offers many many mistranslations. How can you trust anything it says?
    what evidence do you claim that shows Jesus walking the blind to different places instead of healing? and lol you can trace evidence to find out if someone walked on the desert or not .
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
    I've never seen someone get healed by mere touch. There is no evidence for it so why believe it?
    If there was no evidence that Jim committed a crime, why even consider Jim as a suspect in other words?
    Does that make sense?
    And yes, they can find evidence for someone walking in the desert by artifacts they would leave behind such as pottery.
    "Democracy is a problem because it treats everyone as equals." - Betty Fischer

    "back in the 50's or 60's Nicky Criuz was a gang leader who met David Wilkerson in New York City. After much discussion over months or years, i forget how long, Wilkerson's wife became pregnant. one day Cruz decides to test God, he basically prayed--God if you are real let the baby be born a boy-- it was a boy. "
    - Logic of a creationist

    Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur
    ""What can be asserted without reason, can be dismissed without reason. ""
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  46. #45  
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    How do you tell the value of a law? the reason it was made or who made it? or the effects that it has on the people, those in charge, or you? or how popular it is? is there another way to tell? How do you value a specific law?

    greatshit i am: I misunderstood what you meant by genocide. I didn't realize you were talking about God killing humanity I thought you were talking about god commanding his peoples to kill other peoples. If I am wrong again, please let me know.

    Although if this is the case, what makes you call it genocide? The fact that countless individuals have killed each other? or just the fact that countless of people have died at all? or are you merely using it as a strong word to distract from your weak arguments? I am pretty sure humanity has increased, not decreased in population over the course of it's history, other than the whole plague plague incident, but we have more than made up for it in the past century or so. I think your definition of genocide needs to be refined unless you refer to the future.

    In any case, if god wants genocide, we can't make a law whether we do so in gods name or not that will keep it from happening. So either you include god in your argument or you don't, by using a concept you don't believe in to show the weakness of other peoples arguments, you do not strengthen your own but distract from your own, that is if you have an argument other than "god kills and doesn't like equality." is this your argument or am I mistaken?

    Whether or not you believe in god, the facts that people die and kill and are prejudicial remain secular matters, they are worldy things and just because you believe in other worldly entities, does not change what happens on this world.

    Your reasons for having a law don't determine the success of the law. History shows this. Laws displace, not erase, crime. For example, if you get people doing less recreational drugs, they get in more fights in the streets. If you stop people from fighting in the streets, they take it out on their "loved" ones at home, or they murder in the cover of darkness. Crime exists with or without laws, laws just refine the criminal and redefine his place in society. The criminal mindset is just that, a mindset that people have, everyone has it, it is called survivalism, opertunity, danger, gambling, LIEING.

    Laws make crime worse, not better. They are political tools. The only way to change people so they see that crime is not necissary or exciting, is to change the way they are raised, the only way to do that is to change the family structure. To deter criminals who see crime as an "easy" way to make a living, we need to relly less on the law and protect ourselves. There have a couple of situations where I have tried to do the lawfull thing and went to the cops instead of taking matters into my own hands, but there is so much red tape. In the mean time the criminal gets away and is thus empowered to do it again.

    If I were to take matters into my own hands I then have as much a chance of getting in trouble as the criminal. Because cops are humans and they see things after the fact, they have prejudice and judge just as you do about "law protecting civilized people" they have an ideal of what "civilized" means. The kid dressed nicer all of a sudden has more rights than the kid dressed in rags, not because there is a law about it, but because those enforcing the laws are not objective and/or just, themselves.

    There is no good system, and that includes a lacking system. The only thing good is when people start to think for themselves and empethizing with others. When people realize that we are all connected, noone is an island. Violence and peace go hand and hand, just as law and crime. The only way to get away from them is to stop trying.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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  47. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    How do you tell the value of a law? the reason it was made or who made it? or the effects that it has on the people, those in charge, or you? or how popular it is? is there another way to tell? How do you value a specific law?

    greatshit i am: I misunderstood what you meant by genocide. I didn't realize you were talking about God killing humanity I thought you were talking about god commanding his peoples to kill other peoples. If I am wrong again, please let me know.

    Although if this is the case, what makes you call it genocide? The fact that countless individuals have killed each other? or just the fact that countless of people have died at all? or are you merely using it as a strong word to distract from your weak arguments? I am pretty sure humanity has increased, not decreased in population over the course of it's history, other than the whole plague plague incident, but we have more than made up for it in the past century or so. I think your definition of genocide needs to be refined unless you refer to the future.

    In any case, if god wants genocide, we can't make a law whether we do so in gods name or not that will keep it from happening. So either you include god in your argument or you don't, by using a concept you don't believe in to show the weakness of other peoples arguments, you do not strengthen your own but distract from your own, that is if you have an argument other than "god kills and doesn't like equality." is this your argument or am I mistaken?

    Whether or not you believe in god, the facts that people die and kill and are prejudicial remain secular matters, they are worldy things and just because you believe in other worldly entities, does not change what happens on this world.

    Your reasons for having a law don't determine the success of the law. History shows this. Laws displace, not erase, crime. For example, if you get people doing less recreational drugs, they get in more fights in the streets. If you stop people from fighting in the streets, they take it out on their "loved" ones at home, or they murder in the cover of darkness. Crime exists with or without laws, laws just refine the criminal and redefine his place in society. The criminal mindset is just that, a mindset that people have, everyone has it, it is called survivalism, opertunity, danger, gambling, LIEING.

    Laws make crime worse, not better. They are political tools. The only way to change people so they see that crime is not necissary or exciting, is to change the way they are raised, the only way to do that is to change the family structure. To deter criminals who see crime as an "easy" way to make a living, we need to relly less on the law and protect ourselves. There have a couple of situations where I have tried to do the lawfull thing and went to the cops instead of taking matters into my own hands, but there is so much red tape. In the mean time the criminal gets away and is thus empowered to do it again.

    If I were to take matters into my own hands I then have as much a chance of getting in trouble as the criminal. Because cops are humans and they see things after the fact, they have prejudice and judge just as you do about "law protecting civilized people" they have an ideal of what "civilized" means. The kid dressed nicer all of a sudden has more rights than the kid dressed in rags, not because there is a law about it, but because those enforcing the laws are not objective and/or just, themselves.

    There is no good system, and that includes a lacking system. The only thing good is when people start to think for themselves and empethizing with others. When people realize that we are all connected, noone is an island. Violence and peace go hand and hand, just as law and crime. The only way to get away from them is to stop trying.
    You are wrong on all counts.

    In only two lines of the BS above was their anything of use.

    Keep your BS short as I do or be gone.

    God killing, by any other name you like, is still God killing.

    Regards
    DL
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  48. #47  
    Forum Professor marcusclayman's Avatar
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    that long useless post started with a question. How do you determine the value of a law?
    please answer
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    that long useless post started with a question. How do you determine the value of a law?
    please answer
    By seeing who enforces it.

    Regards
    DL
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  50. #49  
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    To clarify, any law is a good law so long as it's enforced by the right person?
    Dick, be Frank.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcusclayman
    To clarify, any law is a good law so long as it's enforced by the right person?
    Who said good law?

    Who said right person?

    If you are to clarify, get it right with the facts in play. Do not make them up.

    Regards
    DL
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  52. #51  
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    "Who said good law? Who said right person?"

    I did, it was actually a question "any law is a good law so long as it's enforced by the right person?" Of course, good and right are my choices of words, would others be more appropriate?

    Due to your lack of interest in continuing this discussion I'm forced to assume your answer to this is no?

    Based on this
    "How do you determine the value of a law?" "By seeing who enforces it."

    One can only come to so many conclusions. One of those conclusions that I doubt but am aware of being a possibility is that you are leading this discussion in circles and have nothing other than spite and confusion to share.
    Dick, be Frank.

    Ambiguity Kills.
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