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Thread: The Misconception of Islam

  1. #1 The Misconception of Islam 
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    TOP TEN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAM

    MISCONCEPTION #1:
    Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.

    MISCONCEPTION #2:
    Islam oppresses women.

    MISCONCEPTION #3:
    Muslims worship a different God.

    MISCONCEPTION #4:
    Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.

    MISCONCEPTION #5:
    All Muslims are Arabs

    MISCONCEPTION #6:
    The Nation of Islam is a Muslim group.

    MISCONCEPTION #7:
    All Muslim men marry four wives.

    MISCONCEPTION #8:
    Muslims are a barbaric, backward people.

    MISCONCEPTION #9:
    Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.

    MISCONCEPTION #10:
    Muslims don't believe in Jesus or any other prophets.

    These are some of the misconceptions out of many. If time allowed many can be and will be discussed. I hope none of us will feel inanition of knowledge.


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  3. #2  
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    Why are you creating another bogus thread of fabrications when you haven't even addressed the ones you created in another thread?


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Why are you creating another bogus thread of fabrications when you haven't even addressed the ones you created in another thread?

    It is not fabrication, I am giving legitimate information. My goal is to just make people aware and shread some knoweldge. I want people to aware of thing about religion.

    If my sources are wrong then ask and I will give you infor indetails. Which I gave for previous topic. If one is not satiate with information then I can't say much. My only intention is to make awareness. thanks
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  5. #4 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    TOP TEN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAM

    MISCONCEPTION #1:
    Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.
    Except for the fact that we separate extremism from non-extremism.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    MISCONCEPTION #2:
    Islam oppresses women.
    In some cases (or many), yes. Christianity kinda oppresses women too, or, at least the bible clearly supports such oppression. It's more or less normal for the large religions.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    MISCONCEPTION #3:
    Muslims worship a different God.
    Now that can neither be disputed nor confirmed. Many different christian congregations seem to worship different gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    MISCONCEPTION #4:
    Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.
    That is true of many of the monotheistic religions. It's actually a historical fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    MISCONCEPTION #9:
    Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.
    Is that a misconception? Muhammad was indeed the founder of Islam, and he is worshipped as a great prophet by many. Surely you would know this?
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  6. #5 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    which one do you want me to give you explaination for. Ok I will do the last misconcept of Islam:

    MISCONCEPTION #9:
    Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.



    Muhammad(pbuh) was born in Mecca in the year 570. Since his father
    died before his birth, and his mother shortly afterwards, he was
    raised by his uncle from the respected tribe of Quraysh. As he grew
    up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so
    that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes.
    The historians describe him as calm and meditative. Muhammad (pbuh)
    was of a deeply religious nature, and had long detested the decadence
    of his society.

    It became his habit to meditate from time to time in the Cave of Hira
    near Mecca. At the age of 40, while engaged in a meditative retreat,
    Muhammad(pbuh) received his first revelation from God through the
    Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for 23 years is
    known as the Quran. As soon as he began to recite the words he heard
    from Gabriel, and to preach the truth which God had revealed to him,
    he and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution,
    which grew so fierce that in the year 622 God gave them the command to
    emigrate.

    This event, the Hijra 'migration', in which they left Mecca for the
    city of Medina, marks the beginning of the Muslim calendar. After
    several years, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to
    Mecca, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam
    definitively. Before the Prophet saw dies at the age of 63, the
    greater part of Arabia was Muslim, and within a century of his death
    Islam had spread to Spain in the West and as far East as China. He
    died with less than 5 possessions to his name.

    While Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen to deliver the message, he is not
    considered the "founder" of Islam, since Muslims consider Islam to be
    the same divine guidance sent to all peoples before. Muslims believe
    all the prophets from Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus etc. were all sent
    with divine guidance for their peoples. Every prophet was sent to his
    own people, but Muhammad(pbuh) was sent to all of mankind. Muhammad
    is the last and final messenger sent to deliver the message of Islam.
    Muslims revere and honor him (pbuh) for all he went through and his
    dedication, but they do not worship him. "O Prophet, verily We have
    sent you as a witness and a bearer of glad tidings and a warner and
    as one who invites unto God by His leave and as an illuminating
    lamp."(33:45-6)
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  7. #6  
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    Are we talking historical facts or personal opinions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    Muhammad (c. 570 – June 8, 632) was an Arab religious, political, and military leader who founded the religion of Islam as a historical phenomenon. Muslims view him not as the creator of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original, uncorrupted monotheistic faith of Adam, Abraham and others. In Muslim tradition, Muhammad is viewed as the last and the greatest in a series of prophets — as the man closest to perfection, the possessor of all virtues.
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  8. #7 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    which one do you want me to give you explaination for. Ok I will do the last misconcept of Islam:

    MISCONCEPTION #9:
    Muhammad was the founder of Islam and Muslims worship him.



    Muhammad(pbuh) was born in Mecca in the year 570. Since his father
    died before his birth, and his mother shortly afterwards, he was
    raised by his uncle from the respected tribe of Quraysh. As he grew
    up, he became known for his truthfulness, generosity and sincerity, so
    that he was sought after for his ability to arbitrate in disputes.
    The historians describe him as calm and meditative. Muhammad (pbuh)
    was of a deeply religious nature, and had long detested the decadence
    of his society.

    It became his habit to meditate from time to time in the Cave of Hira
    near Mecca. At the age of 40, while engaged in a meditative retreat,
    Muhammad(pbuh) received his first revelation from God through the
    Angel Gabriel. This revelation, which continued for 23 years is
    known as the Quran. As soon as he began to recite the words he heard
    from Gabriel, and to preach the truth which God had revealed to him,
    he and his small group of followers suffered bitter persecution,
    which grew so fierce that in the year 622 God gave them the command to
    emigrate.

    This event, the Hijra 'migration', in which they left Mecca for the
    city of Medina, marks the beginning of the Muslim calendar. After
    several years, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to
    Mecca, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam
    definitively. Before the Prophet saw dies at the age of 63, the
    greater part of Arabia was Muslim, and within a century of his death
    Islam had spread to Spain in the West and as far East as China. He
    died with less than 5 possessions to his name.

    While Muhammad (pbuh) was chosen to deliver the message, he is not
    considered the "founder" of Islam, since Muslims consider Islam to be
    the same divine guidance sent to all peoples before. Muslims believe
    all the prophets from Adam, Noah, Moses, Jesus etc. were all sent
    with divine guidance for their peoples. Every prophet was sent to his
    own people, but Muhammad(pbuh) was sent to all of mankind. Muhammad
    is the last and final messenger sent to deliver the message of Islam.
    Muslims revere and honor him (pbuh) for all he went through and his
    dedication, but they do not worship him. "O Prophet, verily We have
    sent you as a witness and a bearer of glad tidings and a warner and
    as one who invites unto God by His leave and as an illuminating
    lamp."(33:45-6)
    Yet, nonetheless, Mohammed was the first to tell people about the Islamic faith, and so was its founder.

    It's like claiming this isn't my house because I don't own the country.
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  9. #8  
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    Muhammad (pbuh) was the founder in terms of who spread the word about Islam, but he did not "find" it in the sense of originating everything on his own.

    A Historical Fact- Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) "spread the word" about Islam and established the basis of the religion. However, Islam does NOT provide a system in which Muhammad (pbuh) is worshipped, he is simply a respected and admired figure. Similar the the US flag and the pledge of allegience. Americans pledge to the flag, but that doesn't mean that Americans worship the flag, they are simply respecting what that symbol represents.

    And, contrary to common belief, Muslims do not have anything in their lives to idolize the Prophet. In fact, most Muslims believe that they should not even have eyes or pictures in their homes, let alone multiple idols or depictions.

    Is that enough simplified info?
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456

    It is not fabrication, I am giving legitimate information. My goal is to just make people aware and shread some knoweldge. I want people to aware of thing about religion.
    We are aware of your religion by the actions of it's members and not by the words in the Quran.

    If my sources are wrong then ask and I will give you infor indetails. Which I gave for previous topic. If one is not satiate with information then I can't say much. My only intention is to make awareness. thanks
    Your intention is to spread Islamic propaganda, which every Muslim that visits these forums is intent on doing.
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  11. #10 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    After
    several years, the Prophet and his followers were able to return to
    Mecca, where they forgave their enemies and established Islam
    definitively. Before the Prophet saw dies at the age of 63, the
    greater part of Arabia was Muslim, and within a century of his death
    Islam had spread to Spain in the West and as far East as China.
    Yes, Muslims conquered and slaughtered everyone wherever they went, demanding people accept Islam or die. He was a ruthless, murdering despot.
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  12. #11  
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    Since this thread obviously includes Muslims who I presume know their faith and their Q'Ran, may I ask a slightly unrelated question?

    I am a non believer, and do not agree with Christianity or Islam, but I like to be informed about religion even if I cannot believe it. Related to the accusation of Muslims being terrorists, and in the reality of the fact that a small minority of Muslim fundamentalists do turn to terrorism, I would like to know the Muslim belief related to harming or killing innocents.

    We know that 9/11 involved the killing of many totally innocent people. So, is there anything in the Q'ran that forbids the harming or killing of innocents?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Since this thread obviously includes Muslims who I presume know their faith and their Q'Ran, may I ask a slightly unrelated question?

    I am a non believer, and do not agree with Christianity or Islam, but I like to be informed about religion even if I cannot believe it. Related to the accusation of Muslims being terrorists, and in the reality of the fact that a small minority of Muslim fundamentalists do turn to terrorism, I would like to know the Muslim belief related to harming or killing innocents.

    We know that 9/11 involved the killing of many totally innocent people. So, is there anything in the Q'ran that forbids the harming or killing of innocents?
    NOWHERE DOES ISLAM ENJOIN THE KILLING OF INNOCENTS.. The Quran says:
    "Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not
    transgress limits. God does not love transgressors." (Quran 2:190)
    "If they seek peace, then seek you peace. And trust in God for He is
    the One that heareth and knoweth all things." (Quran 8:61) War,
    therefore, is the last resort, and is subject to the rigorous
    conditions laid down by the sacred law. The term 'jihad' literally
    means 'struggle'. Muslims believe that there are two kinds of jihad.
    The other 'jihad' is the inner struggle of the soul which everyone
    wages against egotistic desires for the sake of attaining inner
    peace.

    Hope I answer your answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Related to the accusation of Muslims being terrorists, and in the reality of the fact that a small minority of Muslim fundamentalists do turn to terrorism, I would like to know the Muslim belief related to harming or killing innocents.
    This is the biggest misconception in Islam, no doubt resulting from
    the constant stereotyping and bashing the media gives Islam. When a
    gunman attacks a mosque in the name of Judaism, a Catholic IRA
    guerrilla sets off a bomb in an urban area, or Serbian Orthodox
    militiamen rape and kill innocent Muslim civilians, these acts are not
    used to stereotype an entire faith. Never are these acts attributed
    to the religion of the perpetrators. Yet how many times have we heard
    the words 'Islamic, Muslim fundamentalist. etc.' linked with violence.

    Politics in so called "Muslim countries" may or may not have any
    Islamic basis. Often dictators and politicians will use the name of
    Islam for their own purposes. One should remember to go to the source
    of Islam and separate what the true religion of Islam says from what
    is portrayed in the media. Islam literally means 'submission to God'
    and is derived from a root word meaning 'peace'.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    Never are these acts attributed
    to the religion of the perpetrators. Yet how many times have we heard
    the words 'Islamic, Muslim fundamentalist. etc.' linked with violence.
    You've already provided the answer for that question.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    The Quran says:
    "Fight in the cause of God...
    One should remember to go to the source
    of Islam and separate what the true religion of Islam says from what
    is portrayed in the media.
    You've already lied about the media in another thread.

    One can look at the source of Islam and confirm the violence associated with Islam, which is revealed in the actions of Muslims.
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    Look at the source of Islam?

    If you are trying to imply that Islam was violent from the start, then you need to not be a hypocrate and look into the origination of other religions as well.

    Now, I'm not saying that there are not some stupid Muslims who try and interpret the Qur'an to their own benefit, Im only saying that the majority of educated and informed Muslims act with ration and intelligence. In America, for instance, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the entire country. It is not because many Americans want to join some terrorist group or kill people; it is because after 9/11 many began researching Islam and apparently liked its concepts and morals.

    If you are implying that Islam is a bad religion because it has some wack jobs and extremists, then you need to look at every bad event that has ever happened on this Earth and sort through the religions of every person who committed them.

    For example, are all Christians evil dictators because Adolf Hitler was? No. Are all Jews bad because some Jewish Politicians in Israel are blowing up Gaza? No. So it is no diference because of Muslims. Are all Muslims terrorists or violent extremists because of 9/11? No.

    Hope this helps to end this conversation...
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FringeGirl

    Hope this helps to end this conversation...
    Only in that your post demonstrates you have a very poor understanding of Islam.
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  18. #17 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    TOP TEN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAM

    MISCONCEPTION #1:
    Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.
    Doesn't Islam teach that apostates should be killed? Don't virtually ALL the major madhab agree on that? Sounds like violent extremism to me.
    MISCONCEPTION #4:
    Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.
    Right. You're tolerant of other faiths, but you kill people if they try to switch to another faith. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
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    As a non believer, I regard all religions alike. That is : they are all somewhat irrational. Christianity has had its violent times. Just ask the Jews who faced the inquisition, or the Mayans who were 'converted' by the Spanish conquistadores.

    My wife came up with an interesting theory. She says that religions develop from fanaticism to pacifism. She notes that Islam is 600 years younger than Christianity and asks if it is 600 years less developed. 600 years ago, Christians were doing terrible things to non believers. I would not have lasted 5 minutes! Perhaps religions evolve tolerance with time??
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  20. #19 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    TOP TEN MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT ISLAM

    MISCONCEPTION #1:
    Muslims are violent, terrorists and/or extremists.
    Doesn't Islam teach that apostates should be killed? Don't virtually ALL the major madhab agree on that? Sounds like violent extremism to me.

    I do not know which madhab you are referring to. We know some group do claim and say the things but majority Muslim don't supported. You can't judge based on one muslim country and even if that is what you see or hear on media then how much can you believe it. Thats media baised against Islam and also misrepresentating.


    MISCONCEPTION #4:
    Islam was spread by the sword and intolerant of other faiths.
    Right. You're tolerant of other faiths, but you kill people if they try to switch to another faith. Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
    Nothing is far from the truth. It was the Islamic traders who served as excellent role models in the spread of Islam. In the book: "Islam at crossroads", the author, on page 8, says that this belief is a myth. Look at the number of Coptic Christians in Egypt. They number 14 million. Couldn't the Arabs have wiped them out or forcefully converted them to Islam? Look at India. In the 1,0000 years that the Muslims ruled over this subcontinent, every one could have been forcefully converted to Islam. How can you explain that there are 800 million Hindus and others still in India? Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia to convert them? These people converted by seeing the good behaviors of the Muslim/Arab traders. Readers' Digest says that between 1944 and 1984, a period of 50 years, saw more conversion to Islam in Europe and USA than to any faith. I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam? It is the sword of the intellect that converts people.
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  21. #20 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    Look at the number of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
    Do they have the same rights as Muslims? Can they build churches whenever and wherever they want? Do they have an equal voice in government?
    I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam?
    Swords, no. Suicide bombs, yes. And you didn't answer the question about the apostates.
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    -Q, earlier you stated "Only in that your post demonstrates you have a very poor understanding of Islam." Does this mean that you figure that you know more about Islam than I do?

    Is this simply because you hate Islam so much and assume that any positive facts I give about must be false?

    Or is it simply that you are too stuborn to admit that many people here know more about a subject than you?

    Either way, your opinions are not contributing any sort of fact, so can you please just get off this thread!
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  23. #22  
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    To Harold
    I know I am not expert on Islam, which is why I am asking questions. However, I have read enough on the subject to know that there are two factors determining the behaviour of certain Muslims.
    1. The religion
    2. Their tribal customs.

    For example : the burkha is not prescribed by Islam. It is a tribal custom, which the tribal elders have decided in their arrogance is a part of Islam.

    I think there are a number of other behaviours that are not Islam, but determined by tribal custom. The problem is that humans are often very arrogant, and they superimpose their irrational tribal customs on top of their religion, even when it does not fit.

    Christians did the same, and probably still do. Even Christmas itself was a tribal custom. No-one actually knows the birthday of Jesus. The 25th December was a pagan festival based on winter solstice, which was adopted by Christians.

    It is not surprising that Muslims do what Christians did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    It is not surprising that Muslims do what Christians did.
    I prefer to judge people on what they are doing now, not what happened centuries ago.
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    To Harold
    The point is that people are people. Both Muslims and Christians (and Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto etc) try to build their personal prejudices and behaviours into their religion. As a non believer, I can look at these things without the biases of 'true believers'. What I see in all religions is great religious flexibility. People may claim they are following a particular faith, and a particular holy book, but in reality they are doing what they want to do, and imposing the prejudices that come from them personally.

    Christianity originally decided to adopt the Old Testament. In the years since, this adoption has become highly selective. Christians no longer execute any woman who is accused of being a witch, or kill homosexuals as the Old Testament preaches. Nor do Christians follow the dietary proscriptions. The religion became flexible, in the light of other knowledge. Christianity also laid down rules about love, charity, mercy, forgiveness, and non violence. However, Christians today see no problem becoming soldiers and going off to kill people, in spite of the fact that this goes entirely against the spirit of Christ's teachings.

    There is nothing in the Christian bible saying that polygamy and slavery are wrong. But everyone in the modern Christian church says that both are wrong. I agree, but I recognise that the modern rules on polygamy and slavery do NOT come from the Christian bible.

    The Qu'ran apparently has a statement to the effect that women should dress modestly. What does 'modestly' mean? I have no hang up about women's breasts and I think a woman on a beach who wears both halves of a bikini is over-modest. The phrase gets interpreted according to the prejudice of the culture or person setting the rules.

    I would love to see a phrase in the Qu'ran that made it very clear that harming innocent people is wrong. Hence my earlier question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic

    I would love to see a phrase in the Qu'ran that made it very clear that harming innocent people is wrong. Hence my earlier question.

    Please visit this link, it will answer all you questions. Islam does not support killing of innocent people. Not only innocent also children and women are prohibited to be killed as well.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm
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    To sondivp
    Thank you for those references.
    Sadly, I do not think that any quite meet what I was hoping to see. There are some good urgings towards tolerance, but I could not see any command against killing the innocent that is quite unambiguous.

    One statement almost makes it - but allows killing of a murderer or someone who spreads mischief upon the land. The mischief part is open to interpretation, and terrorists could claim that killing 3000 people in New York was justified since they were Americans, and, in their view, Americans spread mischief. If the statement permitted killing only of a murderer, then that would be a good command. The other loop hole in this command is simply too loose.

    The teachings in your reference are good, but just not tight enough. I see nothing that matches the Old Testament command : "Thou shalt not kill." Short and sweet and lacking ambiguity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    The teachings in your reference are good, but just not tight enough. I see nothing that matches the Old Testament command : "Thou shalt not kill." Short and sweet and lacking ambiguity.
    I do not know what New Testament or Old Testament command but I know what Quran command. And anyone who said they are muslim, and don't believe it then those are nothing but criminals. Killing Women, Children and innocent are prohibited in Islam. I know some misinterpret Islam, I do not supported nor do Islam.

    [17:33] Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir authority (to demand retaliation or to forgive): but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life, for he is helped (by the Law)

    This verse lays down the precondition for all war in Islam: there must exist certain oppressive conditions on the people. The Creator unequivocally orders us to fight oppression and persecution, even at the expense of bloodshed as the following verse shows (translation),

    [2:190-192] And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

    As one might imagine, the method of military struggle has been clearly and extensively defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Since this subject is a huge one, we simply summarize part of it by noting that it is unlawful to kill women, children, the infirm, the old, and the innocent. From the Sunnah, specifically in the study of the Sunnah called Sahih Bukhari, we find:

    [4:52:257] Narrated 'Abdullah: During some of the Ghazawat of the Prophet a woman was found killed. Allah's Apostle disapproved the killing of women and children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    There is nothing in the Christian bible saying that polygamy and slavery are wrong. But everyone in the modern Christian church says that both are wrong. I agree, but I recognise that the modern rules on polygamy and slavery do NOT come from the Christian bible.
    In fact, the OT actually champions slavery, as well as you treat your slaves well. There is a law on how to treat your slaves in deuteronomy.
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    To sondivp
    Please do not consider this an attack on Islam. However, it is unfortunate that there is no clear cut law against killing. Everything you have quoted to me actually states that certain killings are OK. Of course, there are limits put on killing. However, those limits appear to me to be a bit ambiguous. Ambiguity is what allows evil people to do wrong while rationalising their actions away using the words of holy books.

    Look at the verses you just quoted.
    The first says do not kill without just cause. But what is just cause? Sadly, evil people will always claim just cause for their evil deeds.

    The second says fight, but without exceeding the limits. Again, what are the limits? The evil doers will claim they have not exceeded limits, and justify their evil deeds that way.

    The third refers to a woman. Killings should be prohibited for both genders.

    So far, I have not seen any clear cut, unambiguous command against killing innocents. Instead, your quotes seem to permit, or even encourage killings if the circumstances are right. And evil men will always say the situation is right for a killing.
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  31. #30 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    Look at the number of Coptic Christians in Egypt.
    Do they have the same rights as Muslims? Can they build churches whenever and wherever they want? Do they have an equal voice in government?

    Well question about Christians in Egypt, if they have same rights as Muslim. They should and I am sure some places in Egypt they do not. My best friend who is Christian from Egypt told me similar thing but lets examine do they follow Islamic Shariah (Islamic Law). If they do not then how can I talking about equally. Look at Israel, muslims are not even allowed to pray in the Mosque Al Aksa. Do we see people talking about it or even people mention about it. I know that does not mean muslim countries should be doing same. I am not very familiar with Egyptian government, but they should if the person is qualified.

    I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam?
    Swords, no. Suicide bombs, yes. And you didn't answer the question about the apostates.
    Islam does support suicide bombs, under no circumstance anyone should commit suicide. If you can find any where in Quran that Islam allows suicide bombs then tell something about. Do not judge a religion just based on couple people action. Islam always condemn that. Look what Israeli doing to Muslim in Palestinians. They do not have anything to depend except themselves but that does not justify to blow themselves. What will you do if your family or your own relatives beingn raped by Israeli Army? What will you do if your own being raped by American Armies? Lets ask these questions to your self and put your self in position, then think about it.
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  32. #31 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    Well question about Christians in Egypt, if they have same rights as Muslim. They should and I am sure some places in Egypt they do not. My best friend who is Christian from Egypt told me similar thing but lets examine do they follow Islamic Shariah (Islamic Law). If they do not then how can I talking about equally.
    What?? You are saying they have to be Muslim to be treated equally? That's exactly my point.
    Look at Israel, muslims are not even allowed to pray in the Mosque Al Aksa.
    I thought we were discussing Islam and how Muslims are tolerant of other religions.
    I am not very familiar with Egyptian government, but they should if the person is qualified.
    Well then tell us about your own country.

    Islam does support suicide bombs, under no circumstance anyone should commit suicide. If you can find any where in Quran that Islam allows suicide bombs then tell something about.
    I don't know about the Quran. I just watch what people do.
    Do not judge a religion just based on couple people action. Islam always condemn that. Look what Israeli doing to Muslim in Palestinians. They do not have anything to depend except themselves but that does not justify to blow themselves. What will you do if your family or your own relatives beingn raped by Israeli Army? What will you do if your own being raped by American Armies? Lets ask these questions to your self and put your self in position, then think about it.
    Yet you don't condemn it, do you? Rather, you try to justify it and make excuses for it.
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  33. #32 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    I never said they have to be Muslim. Read what I said. I said if the country was following Islamic Law then it would have been different.



    Read Quran and then you will see how tolerant the religion toward any other religion and ethnicities.

    I am from Bangladesh, and for your information we do have very democratic country. And our parlimentary system is very diverse. Eventhough Bangladesh is the 2nd largest Muslim country in the world, we have very diverse group of parlimentary members.


    Don't judge a religion by small group of people. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world and the fastest growing religion in the world. So that might have said something.

    I think I condemned enough and also then I have to say what is logical and moral. Muslim can't be beat down and do nothing.
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  34. #33 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    I never said they have to be Muslim. Read what I said. I said if the country was following Islamic Law then it would have been different.
    Well, that's odd because in Saudi Arabia, only Muslims can be citizens. Christian worship is prohibited, even in the American Embassy. Are you telling me they don't know their Islam in the land of Mecca? You ought to send some missionaries there and teach them.
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  35. #34 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    I never said they have to be Muslim. Read what I said. I said if the country was following Islamic Law then it would have been different.
    Well, that's odd because in Saudi Arabia, only Muslims can be citizens. Christian worship is prohibited, even in the American Embassy. Are you telling me they don't know their Islam in the land of Mecca? You ought to send some missionaries there and teach them.
    Well in Saudi Arabia only Saudian can be citizen but no one else. Even if I was born in Saudi Arabia I could not be citizen of Saudi Arabia. It is something that they made into law. Its not only Saudi Arabia, it all Middle East. And Mecca is only is the most scred place in for Muslims and the cleanest place on Earth. Never have been committed any crime there. Mecca is Muslim and I don't think we should be sharing that with anyone.
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    My, my, my. How tolerant of you. Yet Muslims expect to go anywhere in the world and be treated as equals. In fact, they will form organizations like CAIR to whine to the news media if anybody looks cross-eyed at them.
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    Good thing the British set up the Saud Kingdom in 1916 eh?

    Even after they broke the historical Muslim places, including the Prophets tomb and massacred their own countrymen, the British thought they were a jolly good sort who deserved arms and funds to fight the evil secular Ottomans who beheaded their leader for being an extremist. So they poured pounds into establishing and recognising their kingdom. And now, of course, they support the petrodollar economy of the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Good thing the British set up the Saud Kingdom in 1916 eh?

    Even after they broke the historical Muslim places, including the Prophets tomb and massacred their own countrymen, the British thought they were a jolly good sort who deserved arms and funds to fight the evil secular Ottomans who beheaded their leader for being an extremist. So they poured pounds into establishing and recognising their kingdom. And now, of course, they support the petrodollar economy of the US.

    Yes, I know. Muslims are the victims, always the victims. They are never responsible for anything they do or anything that happens to them.
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  39. #38 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    And Mecca is only is the most scred place in for Muslims and the cleanest place on Earth. Never have been committed any crime there.
    So could you explain what was the rioting of Iranian haj pilgrims on Mecca on August 1, 1987? Also, were the four hundred such pilgrims gunned down by Saudi officials, merely the beneficiaries of firm, effective policing? Neither of these events was a crime? I do understand you correctly?
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    Actually, I doubt that modern Saudis would consider themselves victims. On the other hand, Palestinians really and truly are victims. They lived in Palestine from the 7th Century through to WWII, and their country was stolen off them by Britain and the USA (given a veneer of legality by passing the action through the UN), and given to Jewish people who had not lived there for 1400 years.

    Of course, it is now too late to reverse that,but the dispossessed people are still searching for a homeland. Also guilty is Britain and the USA for continuing to support Israel at the expense of the Palestinians. Before WWII, Palestinians had done nothing to harm the West, but still had their homeland taken off them and given to others.

    I think that a big part of Muslim terrorism in fact stems from the actions of the West in stealing Palestine from its citizens. It is time for a proper settlement, which means partitioning the area to provide a home for Jews and a home for Palestinians.

    I am not condoning terrorism. But I think that in relation to Palestine, it is a two way process.
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    Well, the discussion was about whether Islam is tolerant of other religions, so let's not get off the track by talking about Palestine, which is a whole unrelated subject. It has nothing to do with whether people may freely practice other faiths in Muslim countries. But of course, Palestine, or the colonial era, is always the excuse for everything Muslims do.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Yes, I know. Muslims are the victims, always the victims. They are never responsible for anything they do or anything that happens to them.
    You mean like funding and arming dictators, militants and extremists and then getting [or acting] horrified when they act like dictators, militants and extremists? Then resolving that by funding more dictators, militants and extremists?


    Wahhab was forced to flee from Medina, and in a more rural inland area - in the Nejd - he was adopted by the Saud family. With a combination of camel riding warrior power and Wahhabi religious zeal, the Saud regime spread across Arabia. In 1802 an army of 12,000 Wahhabi warriors attacked the Shi'a in the city of Karbala, slaying 4,000 of the city's inhabtants and smashing Shi'a holy sites. In 1803 they attacked Mecca and, aware of the slaughter in Kabala, the Meccans opened their town to Saud rule. Against images, there they smashed opulent graves, and they forbade smoking. After taking power in Medina they smashed grave-sites again, including the tomb of the Prophet Mohammed. In 1813 the Ottoman sultan expeditions against Wahhabism. The defeated head of the Saud family was taken in a cage to Istanbul and beheaded.
    Oh gee. This looks like just the group to encourage with money and arms.

    [Saud] allied himself with the British, who offered recognition of the middle of the Arabian Peninsula (namely the Nejd and Hasa) as his and that of his father before him and his descendants after him - with the proviso that he and his heirs not be antagonistic toward Britain. Ibn Saud agreed not to enter into relations with another foreign power and [Britain] promised to come to the aid of Ibn Saud should he be the victim of aggression. Britain lent Ibn Saud £20,000, 1,000 weapons and 200,000 rounds of ammunition. Added to this was a subsidy of £5,000 per month. This strengthened Saud against a territorial rival, the Hashim (Hashimite) family, which in 1915 was allied with Britain's enemy, Turkey...

    During World War II the United States wanted assurance from Saudi Arabia concerning supplies of oil, needed to wage war. In February 1945, following the conference with Stalin and Churchill at Yalta in the Crimea, President Roosevelt and King ibn Saud met aboard a ship docked in the Suez Canal. There, Roosevelt and King Saud concluded a secret agreement in which the U.S. would provide Saudi Arabia military security - military assistance, training and building a military base at Dhahran in Saudi Arabia - in exchange for secure access to supplies of oil.

    http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch17arab.html


    Here is another jolly bunch of good fellas that look like just the thang.


    In 1979, after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the CIA and Pakistan's ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) launched the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA. Their purpose was to harness the energy of Afghan resistance to the Soviets and expand it into a holy war, an Islamic jihad, which would turn Muslim countries within the Soviet Union against the communist regime and eventually destabilise it. When it began, it was meant to be the Soviet Union's Vietnam. It turned out to be much more than that. Over the years, through the ISI, the CIA funded and recruited almost 100,000 radical mojahedin from 40 Islamic countries as soldiers for America's proxy war. The rank and file of the mojahedin were unaware that their jihad was actually being fought on behalf of Uncle Sam. (The irony is that America was equally unaware that it was financing a future war against itself.) ... After all that has happened [with the September 11, 2000 terrorist attacks in America], can there be anything more ironic than Russia and America joining hands to re-destroy Afghanistan?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Ar...266289,00.html
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You mean like funding and arming dictators, militants and extremists and then getting [or acting] horrified when they act like dictators, militants and extremists? Then resolving that by funding more dictators, militants and extremists?
    If you've discovered a losing strategy, why abandon it in favour of something that might work?
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  44. #43  
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    What was the definition of insanity again?

    IRAQ:

    Last summer American military commanders spent millions of dollars on "concerned local citizens" programs—essentially paying off tribal sheiks to keep their followers from planting roadside bombs. In Tikrit's Salah Ad Din province, the Army has spent more than $5 million to buy the loyalty of 26 different sheiks. (Kanan is not among them, although another sheik from the same family is.) With Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's central government weaker than ever—unable to provide basic services even to Baghdad—power brokers in the provinces are enjoying something of a renaissance. That's fine with Kanan al-Sadid. "We have to get rid of central control," he says, exhaling a cloud of French-cigarette smoke.

    Yet "government from the bottom up" is not without risks. Critics say empowering regional strongmen is creating a warlord state in Iraq, with tribal and religious leaders operating increasingly independently—and often unconstitutionally. At best, the breakdown into local fiefdoms is not necessarily consistent with political reconciliation at the center, the strategic goal of U.S. diplomats. At worst, power struggles among local leaders—particularly in the southern Shiite heartland—could erupt into all-out civil war.
    http://www.newsweek.com/id/42453

    AFGHANISTAN:

    Afghanistan's ambassador to the US, Said Jawad, has said a US-backed plan to form local tribal groups to help combat the insurgency is very risky.

    The US hopes groups similar to those that have had success in Iraq will counter the growing insurgency and the lack of security forces.

    But Mr Jawad told the BBC the plan could backfire.

    He said it could undermine state institutions and actually strengthen warlords and criminals.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7828611.stm

    PAKISTAN:

    TIn a key finding of an investigative study by the Washington-based organization that does investigative reporting and research on significant public issues Center for Public Integrity, the U.S. military aid to Pakistan soared to $4.2 billion after the September 11, 2001 terrorist attack compared to $9.1 million in the three years before the attack boosting Pakistan to the top tier of countries receiving military funding.
    http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/5126

    SOMALIA:

    The Bush administration is helping empower the very same warlords that were responsible for the "Black Hawk Down" fiasco in Mogadishu and the deaths of eighteen American soldiers.

    As Chris Floyd points out, "The attack also openly allies the United States with repressive dictatorship of Ethiopia, whose troops – trained and supplied by the Americans already – invaded Somalia to join with the local warlords in ousting the Islamic movement that had taken control of the country after more than 15 years of violent anarchy."

    The disgusting irony of this is lost on jingoistic cheerleaders for war on Fox News and talk radio, who are applauding the air strikes under the banner of finding and destroying America's enemies, when in reality the Bush administration is aiding the very same thugs that butchered and humiliated U.S. troops fourteen years ago, dragging them around the streets in celebration

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...rswarlords.htm

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    Before we move on to other topics like CIA funding of dictators, blah, blah, etc., can we at least agree that "misconception 4" regarding the Muslim intolerance of other faiths, is actually not a misconception at all but in fact true? Then we can go ahead and blame it on the British, Bush or whoever we want to.
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Before we move on to other topics like CIA funding of dictators, blah, blah, etc., can we at least agree that "misconception 4" regarding the Muslim intolerance of other faiths, is actually not a misconception at all but in fact true? Then we can go ahead and blame it on the British, Bush or whoever we want to.
    Is that like the misconception of the US as a democratic state? Because clearly, democracy is not what it aims at when its supplying 50% of the worlds arms to mostly militants and extremists.

    What would America look like if the extremist factions were in power? Because that is what Americans pay for with their tax dollars to establish in other countries. Perhaps what Americans need is a David Duke/KKK government that exterminates the minorities to recognise what it has been doing to the Middle East and Africa.

    You think any Americans will be interested in that kind of a regime change in their own country? Overthrow after all, is what Americans do best.

    Maybe the Chinese should learn from the American model of "liberating" the world.


    ...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Well, the discussion was about whether Islam is tolerant of other religions, so let's not get off the track by talking about Palestine, which is a whole unrelated subject. It has nothing to do with whether people may freely practice other faiths in Muslim countries. But of course, Palestine, or the colonial era, is always the excuse for everything Muslims do.

    The discussion was never about Muslim countries being tolerant to other religion. It was about Misconception about Islam. So lets not divert from the topic. I was the one who started the topic and the title is The Misconception of Islam not about if Muslim country being intolerant about other religion. So lets stay on that track and keep the discussion on Misconception of Islam. Thanks...



    Maybe we can have another discussion about that and Palestinians. It will come as sequence...
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Is that like the misconception of the US as a democratic state? Because clearly, democracy is not what it aims at when its supplying ...
    Yes. Like that. We already know the US is the spawn of Satan. Now repeat after me "Muslims are not tolerant of other faiths." Jeez, this is like herding cats.

    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    The discussion was never about Muslim countries being tolerant to other religion. It was about Misconception about Islam. So lets not divert from the topic. I was the one who started the topic and the title is The Misconception of Islam not about if Muslim country being intolerant about other religion. So lets stay on that track and keep the discussion on Misconception of Islam. Thanks...
    So what are you saying? Islam is not intolerant, it's the Muslims who are intolerant? But that would make you a bad Muslim too, wouldn't it? After all you agreed with the Saudi policy since you do not want any other religions to defile the spic and span streets of Mecca.
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    Since the despotic regimes installed by the US are intolerant to the Muslims, its rather specious to make claims of religious intolerance. Or do you think these instances of oppression [preserved by US military assistance to the totalitarian regime] are beneath your notice?

    Saudi Arabia's religious police stopped schoolgirls from leaving a blazing building because they were not wearing correct Islamic dress, according to Saudi newspapers.

    In a rare criticism of the kingdom's powerful "mutaween" police, the Saudi media has accused them of hindering attempts to save 15 girls who died in the fire on Monday.

    About 800 pupils were inside the school in the holy city of Mecca when the tragedy occurred.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1874471.stm

    What are the Americans doing with their lips glued to the butts of these @#@$##$#%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Since the despotic regimes installed by the US are intolerant to the Muslims, its rather specious to make claims of religious intolerance.
    No, it's not. More than one person can be intolerant at the same time. I already stipulated that the US is the spawn of Satan.
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    Then one could just as easily stipulate that its the US that practices intolerance by installing criminals to prevent people from controlling their own resources.
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  52. #51 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam? It is the sword of the intellect that converts people.
    I'm not talking about forcing people to convert to Islam. I'm talking about killing muslims who want to leave islam. You might not personally think that apostates should be killed, but as I said in my previous post, all the major madhab agree on this. What do you think? Do you agree that apostates should be killed? Or do you disagree with the various madhab?
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  53. #52 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    I am asking you, who went with a sword to convert these people to Islam? It is the sword of the intellect that converts people.
    I'm not talking about forcing people to convert to Islam. I'm talking about killing muslims who want to leave islam. You might not personally think that apostates should be killed, but as I said in my previous post, all the major madhab agree on this. What do you think? Do you agree that apostates should be killed? Or do you disagree with the various madhab?
    All the major madhab agree that its politically expedient to have such a law in sharia. However, there is no requirement to adopt sharia by any government.
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  54. #53 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    All the major madhab agree that its politically expedient to have such a law in sharia. However, there is no requirement to adopt sharia by any government.
    What's your point? Are you saying it's okay that they support killing apostates because the government might not go along with it? What about all the governmnets that DO go along with it? Most of the muslim countries do in fact officially have the death penalty for people who try to leave islam. Wanting to kill people because they leave your religion is violent, barbaric intolerance that has no place in the 21st century.
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  55. #54 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    All the major madhab agree that its politically expedient to have such a law in sharia. However, there is no requirement to adopt sharia by any government.
    What's your point? Are you saying it's okay that they support killing apostates because the government might not go along with it? What about all the governmnets that DO go along with it? Most of the muslim countries do in fact officially have the death penalty for people who try to leave islam. Wanting to kill people because they leave your religion is violent, barbaric intolerance that has no place in the 21st century.
    Then we treat them like we treat every other government that follows archaic practices like imposing their values on other people who don't believe in them. Like, the United States for example. So I guess, we call them bastions of personal freedom.
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  56. #55 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    All the major madhab agree that its politically expedient to have such a law in sharia. However, there is no requirement to adopt sharia by any government.
    What's your point? Are you saying it's okay that they support killing apostates because the government might not go along with it? What about all the governmnets that DO go along with it? Most of the muslim countries do in fact officially have the death penalty for people who try to leave islam. Wanting to kill people because they leave your religion is violent, barbaric intolerance that has no place in the 21st century.
    Then we treat them like we treat every other government that follows archaic practices like imposing their values on other people who don't believe in them. Like, the United States for example. So I guess, we call them bastions of personal freedom.
    It has been mutually agreed that the United States is the spawn of Satan. Stop using it as an example.

    But, since you brought it up; killing people who leave their religion (Islamic practice) is about the same as killing people who want to leave their country (not an American practice), right?
    "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." ~ Douglas Adams
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  57. #56 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle

    It has been mutually agreed that the United States is the spawn of Satan. Stop using it as an example.

    But, since you brought it up; killing people who leave their religion (Islamic practice) is about the same as killing people who want to leave their country (not an American practice), right?
    No quite the reverse, Americans historically kill people who are staying in their own countries. Its how the country was established. Most often these people die in the villages in which they were born and which they have never left.

    This is known as self defence aka War on Terror. Vast armies of educated liberal and apparently rational men and women invade remote mountain regions and kill isolated tribal people with advanced remote controlled weaponry out of fear of their backwardness. This is known as enlightened outlook or bringing democracy. It is carried out by freedom loving people who believe in the freedom of expression.

    They demonstrate this by refusing to accept any accountability for civilian deaths and by blaming the people they occupy and kill of being delusional, irrational, violent and possessed of tribal beliefs.
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  58. #57 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Why don't you try sticking to the topic, samcdkey? The topic is islam, not the united states. If you want to argue about whether a particular religion is better than a particular country, you can start another thread and see if anyone wants to argue with you.

    sondivp456 claimed that it's a misconception to think that muslims are violent or extremist. He also said it's a misconception that that muslims are intolerant of other religions.

    I consider killing people who want to leave your religion or switch to another religion to be a perfect example of violent extremism and intolerance. You can't argue that it's just a tiny minority of muslims who feel this way, because all the major madhabs agree that apostates should be killed, and in most of the muslim countries the official penalty for trying to leave islam is death. So how exactly do you want to defend islam here? Are you going to try to argue that the madhabs don't advocate death for apostates, or that most muslim counties don't have the death penalty for apostacy? Clearly that would be pointless, because they do, as you are surely aware. Do you want to argue that killing people for leaving a religion isn't violent extremism? Good luck with that.
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    Not at all. We are discussing the backward Muslims here after all. And the brave men and women fighting them. lol.
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    Islamic jurisprudence should be understood not by reading one or two opinions, but by reading all:

    Historically and increasingly today, this view has been challenged by other Islamic scholars, who see it as having no warrant in their understanding of their faith. An interesting critique of the dominant Islamic perspective on the question of apostasy is provided by the Indian scholar Asad Subhani, head of the Faculty of Islamic Studies in the College of Education , Zanzibar. In his recently published book, ‘Apostasy in Islam’, he argues that the death sentence for apostasy from Islam that involves a genuine change of faith is a gross violation of the Quranic commandment that ‘there is no compulsion in religion’. According to the Quran, he writes, God has given human beings the choice of doing good or evil, of believing in Islam or rejecting it. This is God’s way of testing human beings. Nowhere in the Qur’an, Subhani notes, is the death penalty for apostasy mentioned. The Quran refers to apostasy in some ten verses, but the punishment for it is clearly suggested as being reserved for the afterlife, not in this world itself. Hence, Subhani argues, killing apostates simply because of their change of faith goes against the Quran. Forcing apostates to recant and declare themselves as Muslims if they want to escape capital punishment when they do not actually believe in Islam is nothing short of hypocrisy, which the Qur’an considers a heinous sin.

    Not finding support for their position in the Qur’an, advocates of the death punishment for apostasy draw on the corpus of Hadith, traditions attributed to the Prophet. Subhani mentions a number of such traditions in which the Prophet is said to have ordered the killing of apostates. Subhani regards only some of these as genuine, but argues that even these need to be viewed carefully in their historical context. Further, he argues that they must also be understood in the light of the Qur’anic dictum ‘There is no compulsion in religion’.

    Subhani claims that many of the Hadith reports that lay down death for apostates relate specifically to those Muslims who abandon Islam and actively engage in treason or what Subhani calls ‘conspiracies’ against the Islam and the ‘Islamic state’. These reports, he argues, do not apply to other apostates, who are free to choose any religion they want. This explains, Subhani points out, why, according to one Hadith report, the Prophet did not punish a certain Bedouin who had renounced Islam. Likewise, when the caliph Umar bin Abdul Aziz learnt of some Muslims who had abandoned Islam he ordered his governor, Maimun bin Mahran, to release them. Following in this tradition, Subhani tells us, a number of leading Islamic scholars from earliest times down to our own, have opposed the death penalty for ‘non-aggressive’ apostates, although these voices have been and continue to be in a minority.
    So there is no compulsion to follow an opinion that is clearly not advocated in the Quran. But its convenient when the society is run by imperialists and dictators to get rid of any opposition by any means. Unstable societies which lack political freedoms can never produce social reform.

    http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam...tasy_in_islam/
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Islamic jurisprudence should be understood not by reading one or two opinions, but by reading all:
    Yeah, of course there are some islamic scholars who disagree with killing apostates. Get back to me when even one - just one major madhab stops advocating death for apostates.
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    although these voices have been and continue to be in a minority.
    The question becomes whether Islam is solely defined by what is written in the Quran or is it by those practicing it? Certainly, the many religions based on the Bible differ greatly on many issues. How many different brands of Islam is there and which of those are supposed to be correct?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    The question becomes whether Islam is solely defined by what is written in the Quran or is it by those practicing it? Certainly, the many religions based on the Bible differ greatly on many issues. How many different brands of Islam is there and which of those are supposed to be correct?
    Thats your choice. There is no right and wrong, although, logically speaking the Hadith were collected 200-800 years after Muhammed's death while the Quran was taught as a recital from the time he was alive.

    Islam is purely a matter of personal choice and social consensus. Neither of which exist under oppressive political systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Islamic jurisprudence should be understood not by reading one or two opinions, but by reading all:
    Yeah, of course there are some islamic scholars who disagree with killing apostates. Get back to me when even one - just one major madhab stops advocating death for apostates.
    You act like there is some central authority that determines madhab. Anyone can do as they please. Most Muslims are unaware that they are supposed to follow any madhab and decide for themselves what they believe is right. What you are talking about is not followed anywhere in the world.

    No one has even dipped into fiqh or debated it for several centuries.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    The question becomes whether Islam is solely defined by what is written in the Quran or is it by those practicing it? Certainly, the many religions based on the Bible differ greatly on many issues. How many different brands of Islam is there and which of those are supposed to be correct?
    Thats your choice. There is no right and wrong, although, logically speaking the Hadith were collected 200-800 years after Muhammed's death while the Quran was taught as a recital from the time he was alive.

    Islam is purely a matter of personal choice and social consensus. Neither of which exist under oppressive political systems.
    But that's my point. People generally speak of "Islam" as an all encompassing term, while many different versions exist. Several versions probably do have large groups of supporters, some of them supporting the killing of apostates, or suicide bombing (with ridiculous afterlife promises as part of the incentive), others support stoning to death, etc, etc. Surely you are not saying that some violent and intolerant versions are not widely accepted and willingly practiced by whole communities?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    But that's my point. People generally speak of "Islam" as an all encompassing term, while many different versions exist. Several versions probably do have large groups of supporters, some of them supporting the killing of apostates, or suicide bombing (with ridiculous afterlife promises as part of the incentive), others support stoning to death, etc, etc. Surely you are not saying that some violent and intolerant versions are not widely accepted and willingly practiced by whole communities?
    Most so-called violent extremes are practised in the same way as communism. By dictators and the groups that maintain law and order for them. Since Islam is a matter of personal choice [no one is born into a sect or under a madhab, they are fluid and dependent only on your acceptance or rejection of any of their opinions], there is usually a necessity for a council to arrive at a social consensus. Ideally, this should be representative, as per the Quranic dictum on the value of consensus and the basic Islamic principle, Liberty first, or al asl huwa al hurriya . In reality though, regime change and outside military support of dictators plus endemic lack of education about the Quran or the religion results in a diverse mix of people who just follow the community because there is no other option available.

    But that is not to say that Islamic scholars have been silent on the issues.

    There are many reviews which lie on dusty shelves and probably are only discussed in the dry hallways of al Azhar or by laissez faire Islamic scholars who never get any media attention. e.g.

    Murder in the Name of Allah by Hazrat Mizra Tahir Ahmed[

    Killing the Apostate, a Crime Forbidden in Islam [Arabic], Muhammad Muneer Adelby

    Penalty of Apostasy, Historical and Fundamental Study, Ahmed Subhy Mansour

    But you are right, there is no all encompassing Islam. In fact, there is an Islam in every Muslim, because we are all unique individuals who need not agree on every point of view.
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    So are you suggesting then that these abhorrent tendencies would disappear or even be significantly reduced once the state becomes secular?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    So are you suggesting then that these abhorrent tendencies would disappear or even be significantly reduced once the state becomes secular?
    I think if you ever take the trouble to visit any one of those abhorrent societies you'll find that extremists are equally despised everywhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    So are you suggesting then that these abhorrent tendencies would disappear or even be significantly reduced once the state becomes secular?
    I think if you ever take the trouble to visit any one of those abhorrent societies you'll find that extremists are equally despised everywhere.
    I am not talking about extremists per se, but more about common practices that a Westerner might describe as "barbaric" or "primitive". Things like woman’s rights or the way transgressors of the religious laws are dealt with, i.e. shopping off of fingers/hands, stoning, etc. These things are supported by the communities in manycases, as they themselves often are the ones dealing out the punishments. “Abhorrent tendencies” also includes violent attacks on groups of Muslims with slightly differing norms.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Stoning was not practised in the Muslim world until the late 18th century except for one notable exception. The most extreme punishment for adultery under Ottoman law was a fine. Cutting off of hands etc, was common under Canon law [as was beheading, dismemberment and putting heads on pikes] in western societies and rarely seen in Muslim societies [at the time, western societies were seen as medieval and barbaric]. The adoption of such practises in the current Middle East and Africa is a testament to the destruction of those societies for economic gain. Illiteracy breeds superstition and poverty and oppression breeds abuse. The burning down of native American villages, the lynching of blacks, the KKK massacres, the torture of aborigines and the displacement of natives are not so ancient that you cannot see the difference created by 200 years of stable society.

    Everything boils down to political freedom and personal liberty. Do you think intervention has advanced the cause of liberty in Iraq? In Afghanistan? In Iran? In Saudi Arabia?

    Even the good ole boys are not above beating people to death when given the opportunity to do so.
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    I am not disagreeing with any of this, but for the moment, let's stick to Islam.

    Let's take stock then. Are you of the opinion that:

    1)The Quran is not perfect. It has conflicting information in it and can be interpreted in a variety of ways.
    2)"Barbarity" is a direct result of oppression by a government's enforcement of its take on Islam (moulded for its own benefit or not) and rampant illiteracy as part of it.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  72. #71  
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    Quote Originally Posted by FringeGirl

    Is this simply because you hate Islam so much and assume that any positive facts I give about must be false?
    I saw some Islamic propaganda there in your posts, not many facts.

    Either way, your opinions are not contributing any sort of fact, so can you please just get off this thread!
    Why? So, you can fill it with Islamic propaganda?
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  73. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456

    Please visit this link, it will answer all you questions. Islam does not support killing of innocent people. Not only innocent also children and women are prohibited to be killed as well.

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/no_murder.htm
    Islamic propaganda site. Worthless.
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  74. #73 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456

    Islam does support suicide bombs, under no circumstance anyone should commit suicide. If you can find any where in Quran that Islam allows suicide bombs then tell something about. Do not judge a religion just based on couple people action. Islam always condemn that.
    Islam promotes war against non-Muslims for perceived victimization's, like the one you're about to spout next.

    Look what Israeli doing to Muslim in Palestinians. They do not have anything to depend except themselves but that does not justify to blow themselves. What will you do if your family or your own relatives beingn raped by Israeli Army? What will you do if your own being raped by American Armies? Lets ask these questions to your self and put your self in position, then think about it.
    And there is the perceived victimization. A load of crap.
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  75. #74 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456

    Don't judge a religion by small group of people. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world and the fastest growing religion in the world. So that might have said something.
    It said, "Islamic propaganda."
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    You mean like funding and arming dictators, militants and extremists and then getting [or acting] horrified when they act like dictators, militants and extremists? Then resolving that by funding more dictators, militants and extremists?


    Oh gee. This looks like just the group to encourage with money and arms.

    You got what you paid for. Why the whining now?
    Enter the queen of Islamic propaganda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456

    The discussion was never about Muslim countries being tolerant to other religion. It was about Misconception about Islam. So lets not divert from the topic. I was the one who started the topic and the title is The Misconception of Islam not about if Muslim country being intolerant about other religion. So lets stay on that track and keep the discussion on Misconception of Islam. Thanks...



    Maybe we can have another discussion about that and Palestinians. It will come as sequence...
    Why bother? You have yet to address the lies you told in the media thread you started. How many threads of lies will you create?
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  78. #77 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Why don't you try sticking to the topic, samcdkey? The topic is islam, not the united states.
    That will never happen and you probably already know that. Sam will derail every single thread wherever Islam is mentioned into rants about the US. It's a waste of time arguing with her because her agenda is to move ALL topics to her rants.
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  79. #78 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Why don't you try sticking to the topic, samcdkey? The topic is islam, not the united states.
    That will never happen and you probably already know that. Sam will derail every single thread wherever Islam is mentioned into rants about the US. It's a waste of time arguing with her because her agenda is to move ALL topics to her rants.
    I do not know how wise it is slander someone. Anyway, lets keep the discussion on Misconception of Islam. Thanks
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  80. #79 Re: The Misconception of Islam 
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    Quote Originally Posted by sondivp456
    Anyway, lets keep the discussion on Misconception of Islam. Thanks
    Ok, why are you fabricating misconceptions of Islam?

    It's fine to read quotes from the Quran, but what of the actions and inaction's of Muslims?

    When it comes to internal extremism, for example, the vast majority of Muslims are silent when they should be outraged and vocal that their own brethren would take on such activities and desecrate the very tenets of Islam, sullying the name of Muhammad and all he preached.

    Instead, we see mobs in the streets demanding heads on a spike for people who may have written a book, made a film or simply drawn a cartoon. It becomes an international incident for Muslims worldwide.

    Try getting your priorities straight and put your own house in order before preaching to the masses about misconceptions.
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  81. #80  
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I am not disagreeing with any of this, but for the moment, let's stick to Islam.

    Let's take stock then. Are you of the opinion that:

    1)The Quran is not perfect. It has conflicting information in it and can be interpreted in a variety of ways.
    2)"Barbarity" is a direct result of oppression by a government's enforcement of its take on Islam (moulded for its own benefit or not) and rampant illiteracy as part of it.
    The Quran is more ideal because it is flexible across time and societies. A rigid and inflexible document would be worthless. The US Constitution is a good, comparable document.

    "Barbarity" is subjective.


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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    What you are talking about is not followed anywhere in the world.
    Are you kidding? There about 350 million muslims living in countries where they execute people for trying to leave the Islamic religion (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan). That's about 30% of the total muslim population in the world. It's not like we're talking about a few lone nuts here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scifor Refugee
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    What you are talking about is not followed anywhere in the world.
    Are you kidding? There about 350 million muslims living in countries where they execute people for trying to leave the Islamic religion (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Mauritania, and Pakistan). That's about 30% of the total muslim population in the world. It's not like we're talking about a few lone nuts here.
    Then you'll be able to tell me how many were so executed last year?

    As compared to say, executed by democratic nations for being "backward" Muslims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Then you'll be able to tell me how many were so executed last year?
    I don't know. I'm guessing few/none. Probably because when people are going to kill you for doing something, you're not very likely to do it.

    As compared to say, executed by democratic nations for being "backward" Muslims?
    It's pathetic that you're so unable to defend your own religion that you have to constantly try to derail the conversation.
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    No whats pathetic is that hypothetical deaths are more relevant to some people than ongoing massacres.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    No whats pathetic is that hypothetical deaths are more relevant to some people than ongoing massacres.
    If you want to start another thread about the usa or some other country killing innocent people, be my guest. If you're going to discuss things in this thread, then try to sick to the topic. If you're unable or unwilling to discuss islam in a thread about islam, feel free to get out and find a relevant thread to post your views to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    As compared to say, executed by democratic nations for being "backward" Muslims?
    Persecution for religious practice, not religious belief. I, personally, believe everyone with the letter x in their name should be killed. But I don't put it into practice, so I haven't been arrested for murder.

    (this is not true, just a random example)
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    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle

    Persecution for religious practice, not religious belief. I, personally, believe everyone with the letter x in their name should be killed. But I don't put it into practice, so I haven't been arrested for murder.

    (this is not true, just a random example)
    Okay, lets go with your example. Which apostate in Muslim countries has been executed for [lack of] religious belief, rather than practice?
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by drowsy turtle

    Persecution for religious practice, not religious belief. I, personally, believe everyone with the letter x in their name should be killed. But I don't put it into practice, so I haven't been arrested for murder.

    (this is not true, just a random example)
    Okay, lets go with your example. Which apostate in Muslim countries has been executed for [lack of] religious belief, rather than practice?
    Asking me? I don't care what muslims beliefs are. I can live with it, like I can live with my friends believing in conspiracies about aliens.

    It's what they do because of their religion that bothers me. Like suicide bombing, or executing each other for nothing, or whatever. I don't just blame the people, I blame the religion for teaching them that this is right.


    Your defense for Islam appears to be:

    We killed a few thousand people for reasons that we now agree were trivial, and wouldn't do again, but you assume we kill people for no reason.

    But it is apparant that it is because of Islam that these killings occured; would those men have done it if they were atheist? No. Any other religion? Probably not. That is why Islam has its reputation. Try to distract me from the point all you will, provide whatever irrelevant information you want, but you can't deny that Islam has caused people to kill, and still does.

    Deny it, I dare you. Deny it, when Islamic groups take the credit for murder of innocents. Not blame, it's considered credit.
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    But it is apparant that it is because of Islam that these killings occured; would those men have done it if they were atheist? No. Any other religion? Probably not. That is why Islam has its reputation. Try to distract me from the point all you will, provide whatever irrelevant information you want, but you can't deny that Islam has caused people to kill, and still does.
    So it is Islam that has caused the western countries to establish and support dictators in the Muslim countries? To train 100,000 militants from 40 countries and arm them with $2 billion dollars worth of weapons? It is Islam which caused the establishment of Saddam, the supply of chemical weapons to him, the sanctions which caused the death of 500,000 children under the age of 5 in Iraq? It is Islam which caused the Americans to refuse the Taliban offer to extradite, try or give up Osama in exchange for evidence of his guilt? Which caused NATO and the US to inavde and occupy Iraq and Afghanisan, open Gitmo, kill one million people and torture hundreds of others, putting batons up their arses?

    This wannabe suicide bomber is motivated by religious fervour? Really?

    What do other people do when their homes are bombed?

    Is this because of Islam as well?

    Many have disparaged the French resistance as too few in number and ineffectual. But while in high school I recall reading a story of a husband and wife in the French resistance. One day they were in a café when the Gestapo stormed in, guns drawn, and advanced toward their table. The husband pulled out his pistol, shot his wife in the head and then killed himself. They knew the end was at hand and that before death there would be torture. It took incredible courage to do that. That was 40 years ago and I have never forgotten that story. When your homeland is occupied by foreign troops, extraordinary courage seems to come naturally.

    Norway had its own style. Although Norway had professed neutrality, the country was critical to the German Navy with its thousand miles of coast line. With Norway in their control, Germany could launch its submarine wolf pack into the Atlantic at will. So, in April 1940 the Germans invaded Norway. But the Norwegians gave the Germans a bit of surprise. They fought bitterly and the Germans took heavy casualties, although Germany’s superior numbers won out in the end. But the Norwegians never gave up. They established an extremely effective underground, and throughout the war were able to relay to Allied forces submarine movements, the results of which were critical to the British Navy. Once again, when your homeland is occupied by foreign troops, destroying all you have lived and fought for, extraordinary courage is not so extraordinary after all.

    Anther story I recall vividly from those same high school days was that of the Norwegian resistance discovering a traitor amongst them, a man who had given over names of the resistance to the Nazis. He was confronted by the resistance in his home with his family. They tied him to a chair and then summarily executed his wife and three children in front of his eyes, and he was allowed to go free, to live whatever life was possible for him.

    Meanwhile look up the Marxist LTTE and their phenomenol record of suicide bombing. Or the original Lebanese suicide bombers, almost all atheists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    But it is apparant that it is because of Islam that these killings occured; would those men have done it if they were atheist? No. Any other religion? Probably not. That is why Islam has its reputation. Try to distract me from the point all you will, provide whatever irrelevant information you want, but you can't deny that Islam has caused people to kill, and still does.
    So it is Islam that has caused the western countries to establish and support dictators in the Muslim countries? To train 100,000 militants from 40 countries and arm them with $2 billion dollars worth of weapons? It is Islam which caused the establishment of Saddam, the supply of chemical weapons to him, the sanctions which caused the death of 500,000 children under the age of 5 in Iraq? It is Islam which caused the Americans to refuse the Taliban offer to extradite, try or give up Osama in exchange for evidence of his guilt? Which caused NATO and the US to inavde and occupy Iraq and Afghanisan, open Gitmo, kill one million people and torture hundreds of others, putting batons up their arses?

    This wannabe suicide bomber is motivated by religious fervour? Really?

    What do other people do when their homes are bombed?

    Is this because of Islam as well?
    Is this directly relevant to what I wrote? No. You are looking for excuses. show me a film that proves nobody kills because of their Islamic faith. Or a relevant source. Or try to present a valid arguement of some description.

    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Meanwhile look up the Marxist LTTE and their phenomenol record of suicide bombing. Or the original Lebanese suicide bombers, almost all atheists.
    OK. I don't like them either then. Is that sorted now? Good. Back to the issue at hand then.
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    People do not kill others because "they were meant to" or because some "higher power" told them to. People kill people because they are following one leader who has set out on a cause.

    Think of Adolf Hitler for example. He killed millions of Jews in their own countries; he turned neighbors against one another; he tore families appart with his words.
    People did not follow him because they believed that 'christianity is better than Judaism' they followed him because of his over use of propaganda, the advantages he took of Germany when they were hit hard with the depression, and his ability of speech.

    These suicide-bombers are not each Adolf Hitlers who are trying to "make the world right" or trying to "become martyrs"; they are like the thousands of followers of Hitler. They are like the many ignorant sheep that follow horrible leaders who just wish to rid the world of everyone who is not muslim.

    No where in the Qur'an does it say to go out of your way and kill others if they are not harming you. And in the area of suicide- it says in the Hadith that Muhammad (pbuh) said that on only 3 occasions should a Muslims blood be spilt. 1) adultery 2)a life for a life and 3) one who forsakes his religion and leaves his community.
    In no part does it ever speak of killing yourself for your religion.

    Just like most of the other religions out there, people try to defend their honor, religion, or culture in their last moments. This is the key to martyrdom, not suicide.

    In Islam, a Muslim must understand the concepts of the Qur'an, and not be ignorant. Especially if one wants to represent it.

    What happens like what can be seen in the media, is that ignorant Muslims are told bits and pieces of Islam and asked to represent it (suicide). This is not how Islam is supposed to opperate.

    Back to the subject of "The Misconception of Islam"... there are many.

    The main errors that are thought being
    a) that suicide is allowed or sunnah
    b) that Muslims worship or idolize the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
    c) Muslim men are abusive to their wives
    d) Women and children have no rights
    e) that the Qur'an teaches to kill others that are not Muslim

    None of these are correct. Some of them are misconstrued interpretations of the Qur'an, but none are true or factual.
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    As I said before, When people commit wrong acts in the name of religion, it is usually that they are committing wrong acts for their own personal reasons, and rationalising those acts as being religiously justified.

    For example : Osama began his terrorism as a result of anger against the Americans who had too much presense and influence in his homeland of Saudi Arabia.

    Of course, once people develop a strong opinion, they then deliberately socialise with others of the same opinion, and talk to them. By bouncing their prejudices and angers off each other, they strengthen those beliefs and strengthen their fanaticism. Osama and his followers do that with each other all the time. The results are so powerful that some commit the ultimate act of evil emotion, and kill themselves in the name of their false fanatical beliefs.

    We also see the same priniciple at work in America, when members of the religious right get together, and they now support a wide range of barbaric actions, ranging from preventing desperate women getting abortions, to pushing for the death penalty for a range of crimes. They do not even realise that their angry acts are opposite to the teachings of Christ, which emphasize empathy, kindness, forgiveness, and love.

    When muslims commit terrible deeds in the name of Islam, I have no doubt that their real motives are personal, and probably heavily emotional, and they merely use Islam as a rationalisation. I do not believe for a moment that the religion promotes terrorism. It is just the convenient excuse.

    Christians have done so over the centuries. Most of the persecution of Jews occurred because that was a good excuse to steal their wealth. However, killing a Jew and confiscating his property sounds better when done in the name of Jesus.

    Osama and his evil followers attack and kill out of hate (and most of those they attack and kill are fellow Muslims), but deceive themselves with the belief that it is done in the name of Allah.
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    Thank you Skeptic for the first post for some time - on many forums where such matters are 'debated' - that objectively summarises the reality of the situation.
    Forgive this non-theist for saying Bless You. Your post should be made compulsory reading for anyone who wishes to join the discussion.
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    John
    You are very welcome. I am also a non theist. This may help you and I see things a bit more objectively, and untinged with the emotion that comes from strong theistic beliefs, when they are challenged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey

    Then you'll be able to tell me how many were so executed last year?
    So, you're also under the delusion those executions will get reported? HA!
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    Quote Originally Posted by FringeGirl

    None of these are correct. Some of them are misconstrued interpretations of the Qur'an, but none are true or factual.
    Are you a sockpuppet of Sam?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FringeGirl
    it says in the Hadith that Muhammad (pbuh) said that on only 3 occasions should a Muslims blood be spilt. 1) adultery 2)a life for a life and 3) one who forsakes his religion and leaves his community.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    When people commit wrong acts in the name of religion, it is usually that they are committing wrong acts for their own personal reasons, and rationalising those acts as being religiously justified.
    Quote Originally Posted by FringeGirl
    Just like most of the other religions out there, people try to defend their honor, religion, or culture in their last moments. This is the key to martyrdom, not suicide.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    When muslims commit terrible deeds in the name of Islam, I have no doubt that their real motives are personal, and probably heavily emotional, and they merely use Islam as a rationalisation.
    It would appear there is some disagreement here. FringeGirl is presenting religiously motivated violence, condoned and promoted by the cult's tenets, whereas skeptic is denying religion can condone and promote violence.

    Curious...
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    When muslims commit terrible deeds in the name of Islam, I have no doubt that their real motives are personal, and probably heavily emotional, and they merely use Islam as a rationalisation. I do not believe for a moment that the religion promotes terrorism. It is just the convenient excuse.
    Yes and no. I can certainly believe that a suicide bomber is motivated by hate etc. that isn't necessarily connected to or caused by his religion. BUT, I'm also pretty sure that these suicide bombers really do genuinely believe that they will continue to exist (in paradise no less) after they blow themselves up. Without that decidedly religious factor mixed in, I very seriously doubt that they would be willing to commit suicide in such a manner. An angry muslim extremist might look around and say "I'm angry, and my life pretty much sucks" without religion. But to take the next step and say "I can get back at the people I'm angry with and move on to a better life (the afterlife) by blowing myself up," definitely seems to require religion.

    Perhaps if people thought that this one life was all they had to enjoy, they would be more likely to try to make the most of it and improve it, rather than being eager to escape their problems by moving on to the "next" life. If you truly believe that blowing yourself up will result in an eternity in paradise, blowing yourself up really is a perfectly logical, rational thing to do. You'd really be silly to not blow yourself up. So although I would tend to agree with you that religion does not usually directly promote terrorism, it does make it a whole lot easier for people to rationalize why they should engage in terrorist activities.
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    That thesis ignores why the atheist LTTE have been suicide bombers since the 1970s. What motivates them?

    What motivated the largely communist Viet Cong? The Shinto Japanese?

    Robert Fisk has written on the effect of destabilisation on numbing the natural reactions:

    I once asked the head of the Lebanese Hizbollah if he could explain to me how the mind of a suicide bomber works. Sayed Hassan Nasrallah was dressed in his black turban and robes. He had formerly been the Hizbollah's military commander in southern Lebanon and from his legions had emerged the first Arab suicide bombers who would – after more than a decade and a half – sap the morale of Israel's retreating army. Explain to me as a Westerner, I told Nasrallah, how a man can immolate himself.

    "Imagine you are in a sauna," Nasrallah replied. "It is very hot but you know that in the next room there is air conditioning, an armchair, classical music and a cocktail." There was a pause as the Hizbollah leader moved his hand swiftly upwards, as if opening a door. "So you pass easily into the next room." I will not forget the smile he then visited upon me. "That," he said, "is how I would explain the mind of the martyr to a Westerner."

    In a normal society, in a community whose people feel they are treated equally and with justice, we regard suicide as a tragic aberration, a death produced – in the coroner's eloquent lexicon – when "the balance of the mind is disturbed". But what happens when the balance of a whole society's mind has been disturbed? Walking through the wreckage of the Sabra and Chatila Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut a few weeks ago – the same camps in which up to 2,000 civilians were massacred in 1982 and for which, on page 103 of its report, the Israeli Kahan Commission held Ariel Sharon "personally responsible" – I could only wonder at the stability of the survivors who still lived there amid the concrete huts and the garbage and the football-sized rats. If I lived here, I remember thinking, I would commit suicide.

    And that, of course, is the point. When a society is dispossessed, when the injustices thrust upon it appear insoluble, when the "enemy" is all-powerful, when one's own people are bestialised as insects, cockroaches, "two-legged beasts", then the mind moves beyond reason. It becomes fascinated in two senses: with the idea of an afterlife and with the possibility that this belief will somehow provide a weapon of more than nuclear potential. When the United States was turning Beirut into a Nato base in 1983, Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Baalbek were promising that God would rid Lebanon of the American presence. I wrote at the time – perhaps being tongue-in-cheek – that this was likely to be a titanic battle: US technology versus God. Who would win? Then on 23 October, 1983, a lone suicide bomber drove a truckload of explosives into the US Marine compound at Beirut airport and killed 241 American servicemen in six seconds. I later interviewed one of the few surviving marines to have seen the bomber. "All I can remember," he told me, "is that the guy was smiling."

    I called a Palestinian friend yesterday morning to ask about this, to ask how young Palestinian men – in Lebanon as well as Ramallah – could rejoice in the streets at the pizzeria massacre. She expressed her abhorrence at what happened – she was genuine in this – but tried to explain that the Palestinians had suffered so many civilian casualties since the "intifada" began that Palestinians found joy in any suffering inflicted on their enemy. There was a feeling that "they should suffer too"; which, of course – and the principle applies, though not the historical parallel – is exactly how Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris explained his area-bombing policy against German civilians.

    But I go back to my own first reaction when I reached the Sbarro pizza house. Unforgivable. What did that eyeless, dead Israeli child ever do to the Palestinians? Could not the Palestinian bomber, in his last moments on earth, recognise this child as his daughter, his baby sister, his youngest cousin? Alas, no. He was too far down the road to his own death, too buried in his own people's tragedy. His was not an act of "mindless terror", the words Israeli spokesmen use. He was the logical product of a people who have been crushed, dispossessed, tortured and killed in terrible numbers. The pressure cooker of the West Bank was his sauna. And he passed through the door.


    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...ld-665330.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    That thesis ignores why the atheist LTTE have been suicide bombers since the 1970s. What motivates them?
    Most of the LTTE are hindus who believe in reincarnation, which I imagine makes it easier to commit suicide attacks. The LTTE itself is a secular organization, but that doesn't mean that its members are atheists.
    What motivated the largely communist Viet Cong? The Shinto Japanese?
    Shinto too believes in existence after death. I don't really know enough about the viet cong to give you an answer on them. Did they carry out many suicide attacks?
    "Imagine you are in a sauna," Nasrallah replied. "It is very hot but you know that in the next room there is air conditioning, an armchair, classical music and a cocktail." There was a pause as the Hizbollah leader moved his hand swiftly upwards, as if opening a door. "So you pass easily into the next room." I will not forget the smile he then visited upon me. "That," he said, "is how I would explain the mind of the martyr to a Westerner."
    Uhh, this seems to completely agree with what I said in my last post. People are willing to become "martyrs" because they believe they will get to continue to exist in paradise after they die. If you didn't think that there was a "next room," maybe you would try to find a way to turn down the thermostat in the room you're currently in, rather then being eager to blow yourself up in order to get to the imaginary next room.
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