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Thread: question: if supposily "GOD" was to stand before.

  1. #1 question: if supposily "GOD" was to stand before. 
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
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    if supposily "GOD" was to stand before you what scientific means would you use to determine, what you seing before your eyes exist? do take dna test? .... do you ask him to show how he created the universe?do you atack yourself as you may be dreaming?what.( debate!)


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    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
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    Well the fact that he'd be all glowy and floaty would be a good starting guess. Also you'd probably feel a certain pressure, for lack of a better word. Like you got the wind knocked out of you. He is God after all.

    But scientifically, hmm... Well, there probably isn't a way. You could touch the holes in his hands and feet. Not many people alive today have holes like that. You could ask for a miracle I guess. But if you can understand a scientific explanation for a miracle, does that make it not a miracle? Presumably God works within the scientific laws, after all.

    So I guess there isn't a way. Except that if it's really God you'll just know, and even the most hardened skeptic won't need any proof.


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    ="NumsgilBut scientifically, hmm... Well, there probably isn't a way. You could touch the holes in his hands and feet. Not many people alive today have holes like that. You could ask for a miracle I guess. But if you can understand a scientific explanation for a miracle, does that make it not a miracle? Presumably God works within the scientific laws, after all.
    . hands and hole feet, a skeptisit would clearly say that the bieng must have stabed himself..so that would not help
    . you could ask for a mirical but, perhaps you could easily give a scientifc/rational view of the mircale
    . but he is a "GOD" therefore he must have the ability to work outside the law of science?

    So I guess there isn't a way. Except that if it's really God you'll just know, and even the most hardened skeptic won't need any proof.
    so if rationally there isn't way, then skeptics can say "GOD" does not exist?
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    How would a person know if "God" is in front of him? Here already we assume that "God" is a person and has a human form. "God" can be just a force that we cannot see, feel or touch. Something like electricity.
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
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    Quote Originally Posted by newnothing
    How would a person know if "God" is in front of him? Here already we assume that "God" is a person and has a human form. "God" can be just a force that we cannot see, feel or touch. Something like electricity.
    i can feel/touch the shock of electricity, and i can see a form of electricity, example "lighting"? if you can't see, feel or touch how would determine god is there?
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  7. #6 Re: question: if supposily "GOD" was to stand bef 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    if supposily "GOD" was to stand before you what scientific means would you use to determine, what you seing before your eyes exist? do take dna test? .... do you ask him to show how he created the universe?do you atack yourself as you may be dreaming?what.( debate!)
    Pretty much any impressive demonstration of his powers would do for me. Anything like raising the dead, miraculously healing people with major injuries, etc. Another possibility would be him telling me something specific that no one could predict in advance, like the exact location and time of a major earthquake or something.
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    For me he would have to appear in front of everybody on the planet at the same time, that would be prove enough, other than that I would think I was hallucinating.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    Forum Ph.D. Darius's Avatar
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    Oh come on. If he's God I'd simply ask him to give me all of his knowledge. THEN I'd know. Obviously.
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Oh come on. If he's God I'd simply ask him to give me all of his knowledge. THEN I'd know. Obviously.
    Crude, but yes. It would be difficult to find a way for the being to prove himself as God. Simply showing me "miracles" would certainly wow me, but it would not be convincing. It could simply be an advanced alien after all, either actually doing the cool things or simply implanting images and sensations in my brain. I would want to understand. How the universe works and info on life elsewhere, certainly, but it would have to convince me that it has had any kind of input in our lives other than being the object we assign properties to, to fit our needs. It should reveal to me what its plan is, because at the moment I don't see the slightest inkling of any kind of purposeful plan in the world.

    If it is simply the agent that created the universe, then it would not be a god. Certainly not in a sense that would make it qualify as the God.

    I guess what I am saying, is that for the being to qualify as God, it would have had to have created the Solar System for a purpose that includes us.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I guess what I am saying, is that for the being to qualify as God, it would have had to have created the Solar System for a purpose that includes us.
    Why should purpose matter? It would only lead to the fact that he created the universe for his own reasons. That alone doesn't give us a purpose, other than perhaps being of entertainment to him/her/it.

    No, if a being should qualify as God, it should have a real good answer to its own existence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    if supposily "GOD" was to stand before you what scientific means would you use to determine, what you seing before your eyes exist?
    To test God one could simply ask of him to bend the laws of physics. For example he could shoot Jupiter out of orbit and we could observe it. Or he could instantly make a planet disappear before our very eyes. There are plenty of ways to test to see if Gods real, but can you test to see what God is?

    By definition, no. Because by definition God isn't defined. If God was to stand before me in physical form it would mean that he had limited himself to a physical form. This would mean that any DNA test or anything would be meaningless as the results could only show physical aspects of God in his physical form. There's no way to test what God is when he's supposedly of something "outside the physical world". So this means that any physical means of testing would be futile, by definition.

    In fact, by definition God can't show himself. Any means of showing himself would result in the same problem. He can only show himself in the form we are, if we are to know he's there. Or he could transform us into the form he is.

    That would change everything. If so, the possibilities would be endless, but at the same time none as a whole new world would appear and of which we would have to re- define everything.

    Quote Originally Posted by newnothing
    How would a person know if "God" is in front of him? Here already we assume that "God" is a person and has a human form. "God" can be just a force that we cannot see, feel or touch. Something like electricity.
    Only that electricity is a physical thing which we can feel and measure. God is supposedly "beyond the physical", which to me is the same as saying "God is nothing".
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Oh come on. If he's God I'd simply ask him to give me all of his knowledge. THEN I'd know. Obviously.
    Magical wishful thinking again... Knowledge cannot be given, it must be learned. If He told you, you wouldn't listen, but if you listened you wouldn't believe, but if you believed then you wouldn't really understand... because real knowledge must be learned. In our consumer society students often expect teachers to pour the knowledge into them, but it doesn't work that way.

    This is a part of the difference between science and religion. The religious believe but what do they really understand? In science we believe nothing but achieve an understanding that can really accomplish things. But both of these are better than the those who stand around wondering who they should listen to.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER
    I guess what I am saying, is that for the being to qualify as God, it would have had to have created the Solar System for a purpose that includes us.
    SOMEONE is self centered. If I were God I would just create the universe to see what happens. Hence evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Magical wishful thinking again... Knowledge cannot be given
    This is God. Magic (technology?) is his thing. God is omnipotent, therefore God can give knowledge. If he can create the fucking universe he can surely transfer memories and information instantaneously. Just so you know, this made me want to strangle you. With your intestine. "Dhurrrrrrr now why would God be able to give someone knowledge dhurrrrrrrrrrr"
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
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  14. #13  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    This is God. Magic (technology?) is his thing. God is omnipotent, therefore God can give knowledge. If he can create the fucking universe he can surely transfer memories and information instantaneously.
    Antiquated metaphysics which sees things like knowledge and life as some kind of substance which can be transferred. But this is nonsense. Life is a process by which dynamic structures organize themselves and knowledge is a human specific term for the organizational principles by which the human mind organizes itself. Data is not knowledge. Data is coming at you at all times and what you make of that data depends on your perception. Perception sees how the data can be utilized in the dynamic structure of the mind, thus using that data as raw material in the construction of knowledge, which in turn becomes a part of the perceptual process.

    A wish for knowledge that is not learned is therefore a wish to be something other than who you are. The world abounds in people paralized by pipe dreams and wishful thinking. They wish to be a movie star or a basket ball player but they sit on their butt. If you want these things you go and get them. If you want knowledge then you apply yourself to learning.

    Life is not in the having but in the becoming. If you think, "if only you had this or that then I would live", then the truth is that you are deluding yourself, for having whatever it may be would only bring you right back to the same question, which is what are you going to do with your life.

    The point is that all that you could ask God for is right there in front you, but it is your life to live and expecting God to do more than this is to expect Him to live your life for you and no He will not do that, because it doesn't really make any sense at all. But of course children have a habit of demanding things that don't make any sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darius
    Just so you know, this made me want to strangle you. With your intestine. "Dhurrrrrrr now why would God be able to give someone knowledge dhurrrrrrrrrrr"
    You see. Knowledge refused. I cannot give you knowlege any more than God can. Willful human beings don't care about how things are but only about how they they want them to be. This is wishful thinking.

    The question in the OP is nonsensical to me on so many levels that I did not respond to it. The fact is that God does stand before me. It is the very nature of God that He does so. But by the same token it is meaningless to seek evidence of this.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Let me just summarize my below response: "Pass no judgement, and you will not be judged"

    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Antiquated metaphysics which sees things like knowledge and life as some kind of substance which can be transferred. But this is nonsense. Life is a process by which dynamic structures organize themselves and knowledge is a human specific term for the organizational principles by which the human mind organizes itself. Data is not knowledge. Data is coming at you at all times and what you make of that data depends on your perception. Perception sees how the data can be utilized in the dynamic structure of the mind, thus using that data as raw material in the construction of knowledge, which in turn becomes a part of the perceptual process.
    AWwwww, how cyuuuuuuuute. It's trying to help me learn. We are talking about God. God can do whatever the FUCK he likes. That pretty much MAKES him God in the first place. Therefore, your argument is...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQ...eature=related

    A wish for knowledge that is not learned is therefore a wish to be something other than who you are. The world abounds in people paralized by pipe dreams and wishful thinking. They wish to be a movie star or a basket ball player but they sit on their butt. If you want these things you go and get them. If you want knowledge then you apply yourself to learning.
    You have no idea who you're talking to.

    Life is not in the having but in the becoming. If you think, "if only you had this or that then I would live", then the truth is that you are deluding yourself, for having whatever it may be would only bring you right back to the same question, which is what are you going to do with your life.
    Yay having absolutely nothing to do with anything and what the fuck are you a physics teacher or a school therapist? The latter seems to fit your hippy optimism better.

    You see. Knowledge refused. I cannot give you knowlege any more than God can. Willful human beings don't care about how things are but only about how they they want them to be. This is wishful thinking.
    No, KNOWLEDGE was not refused. Your DOGMA was refused. There is a difference. As an avid reader of Zen teachings I can assure you I recognize knowledge and wisdom when I see it. When I refused this dogma you recoiled and suddenly went "Wait, how can he disagree? I'm right! I know it! I can't be wrong! He must be validating it instead!" Sorry, no, I'm just telling you that you're wrong.

    The question in the OP is nonsensical to me on so many levels that I did not respond to it. The fact is that God does stand before me. It is the very nature of God that He does so. But by the same token it is meaningless to seek evidence of this.
    Unless God made himself appear in human form. Which he could do if he so friggin' desired. Or maybe he'd appear as Gordon Freeman. That would be BAD ASS.
    Om mani padme hum

    "In dishonorable things we are not bound to obey any man." - The Book of the Courtier [1561], pg 99 (144 in pdf)
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    So how do you define omnipotence, Mitch? Is it one of his characteristics or is he simply unwilling to make use of it in your opinion?

    And how can you be sure? What definition of God is the correct one? (Surely a question without an answer, but if you have any input.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by newnothing
    wrote:
    How would a person know if "God" is in front of him? Here already we assume that "God" is a person and has a human form. "God" can be just a force that we cannot see, feel or touch. Something like electricity.

    i can feel/touch the shock of electricity, and i can see a form of electricity, example "lighting"? if you can't see, feel or touch how would determine god is there?
    If 'God' would open my eyes and see the purpose of life and the universe, that would mean there is 'God'.
    ~ One’s ultimate perfection depends on the development of all the members of society ~ Kabbalah
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    So how do you define omnipotence, Mitch?
    Thank you for the intellegent questions (and I consider one intellegent question to be worth a thousand intellegent answers by the way).

    I think the first and immediate qualification that is made when considering the attribute of omnipotence is that of logical consistency. I have, in fact, been in numerous arguments with other Christians about whether logical consistency is determined by necessary truths or are simply whatever God says they are. Since I think such necessary truths also include some moral truths (such as what it means to be good), I often refer to the latter position as "divine relativism".

    Anyone can make anything happen in their dreams regardless of any limits of logical consistency, for I have quite often had the experience of waking up and trying to trace to threads of a dream I just had only to have it unravel because of numerous logical inconsistencies. But that is the difference between dream and reality and that is why I DO NOT believe in an omnipotence that has no regard for logical consistency for a god who is only God because He happens to be dreaming is not what I can consider to be God at all. Thus I must consider the kind of omnipotence to be found in anyones dreams to be no real omnipotence at all.

    But if real omnipotence is limited by some background reality of logical consistency then it calls into question the whole idea of a magical sort of omnipotence which is by the action of the will alone because the whole thing smells of the wishful thinking of a child. Real omnipotence must therefore be based on knowledge and understanding and not wishes in ignorance -- it must be based on a knowledge of how things can be accomplished. Real omnipotence is therefore inseperable from real omniscience. Knowledge is power and power is knowledge. God's omnipotence consists of an infinite supply of energy and the unlimited knowledge of what to do with it. Yes of course this energy obeys his will just as the energy of our body obeys our will, but to accomplish anything real it cannot be by will alone, but must derive its form and nature from God's knowledge of how that is done.

    The result of all this is (or perhaps this is a result of ) a methodological naturalist approach to Christianity. I think perhaps this is the only way someone who starts off as a scientist can find any meaning and value in Chrisitanity.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Is it one of his characteristics or is he simply unwilling to make use of it in your opinion?
    I am not sure how to respond to this question, but here is the best that I can do: I think I would make a distinction between the nature of what God is and that of identity or who God is. By His nature God is infinite or without limitation and thus omnipotence is part of the nature of what He is, but I do not think that it is any part of who He is and thus it is necessary to who He is.

    And this leads to another important consideration in regards to omnipotence and that is the question of self-limitation. There is the famous condundrum, "can God make a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?" I consider most answers to this condundrum to be insipid and inane - out of touch with the realities of power. The reality I am talking about is that every use of power limits the power of the one who wields that power. Consider an absolute tyrant who can pass any law or edict he chooses, after passing such a law or edict, he may very well be able to change his mind but he cannot do so without contradicting himself (and probably making himself look a little foolish). Thus the idea of power without self-limitation is delusion.

    Thus my answer to the famous conundrum is yes, God can make a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it. It is only natural that such an ultimate use of His power in making such things as unbreakable walls or unstoppable forces must of a logical neccessity limit His own power thereafter. Typical answers to the conundrum that forbid God such things as "logically contradictory" are just bosh, for the only thing they really contradict are irrational and logically contradictory definitions of God by human beings. And so I repudiated such castrations of God that make Him incapable of such simple things as self-limitation, sacrifice, risk and giving others some privacy - all of which have close ties to the ability to love.

    No I think we must realize that the only logically consistent understanding of omnipotence is that this is not something necessary to who God is, and that without such power and knowledge God would no more cease to be God than a man would cease to be a man because of the loss of a limb or a memory. Nowhere better do I see this truth illustrated than in the Chrisitan belief that God set all of His power and knowlege aside to become a helpless human infant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    And how can you be sure?
    I can only be sure of what sort of God I would love, worship and serve and what sort of God I would despise, reject and defy. Since the word God is reserved for the former, the latter is something that I would generally call by a different word.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    What definition of God is the correct one? (Surely a question without an answer, but if you have any input.)
    The definition of a word is somewhat arbitrary and the only standard of correctness is the consensus by which that word can convey meaning. But consensus on the meaning of the word "God" is more difficult than just about any other word. Sometimes it is just a question of whether we can find any meaning in the word or not, and perhaps that is the real difference between the theist and the atheist as those who can find a meaning in the word and those who cannot.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  19. #18  
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    So in short you believe in a logically consistent [naturalistic] god?

    I'm curious to your reasoning on omnipotence though. The way you've defined it makes it sound as though it is not omnipotence. If god could limit his power -- or if his power were limited -- you instantly have a contradiction because the power wouldn't be unlimited. But if I understand your reasoning on this, god could simply change his mind if he wanted to? If that's true, then it would mean he didn't really limit his powers to begin with, yes?

    Also, if God's omnipotence was limited by logic, would it still be omnipotence?

    This all seems a little blurry to me still. The concept of omnipotence seems void without contradiction if you know what I mean. Everything is supposed to be possible with unlimited power.
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