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Thread: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost)

  1. #1 does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
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    mmm, may be am wrong but why do the terriost extremist muslems belive that kiling inocent people including thier own people and i may be worng belive then risking thier life to do this act they will go to heaven with 4 virgins or something like that( this terroist i supported by iran syria and other functions of arab world support this extremist muslims(terriost). does this mean that islam support this functions?


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    In Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea he uses a revealing quotation from the Prime Minister of Singapore. I will, of course, mangle it from memory, but it went something like this:

    "You Westerners believe that each person is a piece of stardust with a soul and value of its own. Here in the east we smile at these notions, knowing about the scurrying millions, like ants, whose lives are dedicated to the service of their societies."

    As I said, I've probably misquoted like mad, but the point of view is the important one - it is genuinely possible for people to think that a cause is more important than 'mere' human lives.

    Ever read Wilfred Owen's Strange Meeting? Even the most liberal conscience is prone to dehumanise others in the right circumstances.


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    Forum Masters Degree samcdkey's Avatar
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    You probably need to spend a few years under foreign occupation or a dictator to understand these notions. Join the Peace Corps and go work in Jenin or Gaza. You'll get it.
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  5. #4  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You probably need to spend a few years under foreign occupation or a dictator to understand these notions. Join the Peace Corps and go work in Jenin or Gaza. You'll get it.
    Better yet, live in an Islamic state. Don't forget to tell them you're a Christian.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You probably need to spend a few years under foreign occupation or a dictator to understand these notions. Join the Peace Corps and go work in Jenin or Gaza. You'll get it.
    Better yet, live in an Islamic state. Don't forget to tell them you're a Christian.
    Thats actually a good idea. Spend some time in a Muslim country as a Christian and some time in Gaza. That way, you'll also know why Christians in Muslim countries are not suicide bombers.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    You probably need to spend a few years under foreign occupation or a dictator to understand these notions. Join the Peace Corps and go work in Jenin or Gaza. You'll get it.
    Better yet, live in an Islamic state. Don't forget to tell them you're a Christian.
    so you accept that islam accepts terrorist who kill innocent people including thier own?
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  8. #7  
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    No I'm saying it's got nothing to do with Islam
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant

    so you accept that islam accepts terrorist who kill innocent people including thier own?
    Islam demands that Muslims resort to violence if necessary. The problem with a religion that condones and promotes violence is that it's followers may deem what is considered necessary at their convenience. And, if a Muslim takes up a cause and resorts to suicide, even though suicide is prohibited, they will still take the path to martyrdom.

    Muslims will kill their own kind if they deem, again at their convenience, they've wandered from Islam.

    The various sects of Islam, Sunni and Shiite, for example, will kill each other over their differences. And, they do so despite the ordinance of the Quran prohibiting sects.

    No matter how many times Muslims will claim that Islam is a religion of peace, you'll rarely find that to be the case. I have personally found Muslims to be peaceful, good people when they don't resort to Islam. Of course, that is usually the case with most religions.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant

    so you accept that islam accepts terrorist who kill innocent people including thier own?
    Islam demands that Muslims resort to violence if necessary. The problem with a religion that condones and promotes violence is that it's followers may deem what is considered necessary at their convenience. And, if a Muslim takes up a cause and resorts to suicide, even though suicide is prohibited, they will still take the path to martyrdom.

    Muslims will kill their own kind if they deem, again at their convenience, they've wandered from Islam.

    The various sects of Islam, Sunni and Shiite, for example, will kill each other over their differences. And, they do so despite the ordinance of the Quran prohibiting sects.

    No matter how many times Muslims will claim that Islam is a religion of peace, you'll rarely find that to be the case. I have personally found Muslims to be peaceful, good people when they don't resort to Islam. Of course, that is usually the case with most religions.
    true, most muslims i know are peaceful but i find it hard to understand why they do not resort to peace with thier enimies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    true, most muslims i know are peaceful but i find it hard to understand why they do not resort to peace with thier enimies.
    It's only when they resort to their holy book do they become the person they are not.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    true, most muslims i know are peaceful but i find it hard to understand why they do not resort to peace with thier enimies.
    Well eventually they'll become democratic and start bombing collateral damages instead of people. And use 2000 lbs bombs instead of suicide vests. And "spread democracy" instead of insurgencies.

    One can hardly wait.
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Well eventually they'll become democratic and start bombing collateral damages instead of people. And use 2000 lbs bombs instead of suicide vests. And "spread democracy" instead of insurgencies.

    One can hardly wait.
    Everyone down! Incoming off-topic propaganda!
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    How is it off topic? Name one democratic country not engaged in any of the above over the last century.
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  15. #14 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    mmm, may be am wrong but why do the terriost extremist muslems belive that kiling inocent people including thier own people and i may be worng belive then risking thier life to do this act they will go to heaven with 4 virgins or something like that( this terroist i supported by iran syria and other functions of arab world support this extremist muslims(terriost). does this mean that islam support this functions?
    What is Islam that it could support such things? I don't think this is the right question.

    There was a time when Islam was the religion of tolerance and so I do believe that it can be compatable with a free society.

    However, I do not think it is any coincidence that the most theocratic religion on the planet is the one in which we find such terrorist organizations, if for no other reason than the fact that a such a religion is more useful as a tool of power.
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  16. #15 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    There was a time when Islam was the religion of tolerance and so I do believe that it can be compatible with a free society.


    Earth to Mitchell? Come in, Mitchell. Over.
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  17. #16 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    There was a time when Islam was the religion of tolerance and so I do believe that it can be compatible with a free society.


    Earth to Mitchell? Come in, Mitchell. Over.
    No it is true. During what is known as the Islamic golden age (8th-13th centuries), as Christian countries became increasingly hostile to the Jews, expelling them from their countries, the Islamic world was often the refuge that many Jews resorted to. Islam regarded Judaism and Christianity as religions of the book and saw them as cousins to their own religion. In this enlightened period it is also the Islamic world that carried on the developments in science from the Greeks. Algebra and the number system that we use today are their invention, and their work in Astronomy is why many stars have Arabic names.

    SO WHAT HAPPENED??? THAT is a very clear warning to Christianity for reactionary and fundamentalist movements shut down this era of enlightenment. If that hadn't happened it may very well have been the Europe that would have been the third world in modern times. IF Christianity persists in the kind of anti-scientific ideology that we find in numerous places in the US and Canada and if they succeed in gaining power to pursue their theocratic agenda then the future will pass it by and it will find itself in the same predicament that Islam finds itself in now.
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    Mitchell is correct. Saladin was a very noble man during the crusades. When the Christians took over Jeruselum, they killed every muslim there. When Saladin took over Jeruselum during the second crusade 100 years later when he took over Jeruselum, he allowed all Christians to take their belongings and he escorted them to boats to go back to Christian lands. NO bloodshed of innocence was performed from the Islamic military post battle for Jeruselum. He was a very honorable man and he promoted tolerance. While Saladin was preaching tolerance, the templars raided muslim caravans and they killed Saladin's sister. This ultimately caused Saladin to attack Jeruselum in the first place.
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  19. #18 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    No it is true. During what is known as the Islamic golden age (8th-13th centuries)... In this enlightened period it is also the Islamic world that carried on the developments in science from the Greeks. Algebra and the number system that we use today are their invention, and their work in Astronomy is why many stars have Arabic names.
    I see you've been duped by the golden age propaganda, too. Algebra is credited to Diophantus in 3 AD. Muslim's merely took to writing in a book rather than using an abacus, but made no accomplishments with it whatsoever, other than trying to please their caliphs. Kharazmi did come up with the algorithm but did absolutely nothing with it, despite having the resources to do so. It wasn't until western civilization incorporated it into electronics.

    The only thing Muslims really accomplished is the building of mosques and shrines for their bloodthirsty caliphs.

    The so-called "Islamic Golden Age" was only one small step above the Dark Ages, but was as putrid a time period as any other for those who endured it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Mitchell is correct. Saladin was a very noble man during the crusades. When the Christians took over Jeruselum, they killed every muslim there. When Saladin took over Jeruselum during the second crusade 100 years later when he took over Jeruselum, he allowed all Christians to take their belongings and he escorted them to boats to go back to Christian lands. NO bloodshed of innocence was performed from the Islamic military post battle for Jeruselum. He was a very honorable man and he promoted tolerance. While Saladin was preaching tolerance, the templars raided muslim caravans and they killed Saladin's sister. This ultimately caused Saladin to attack Jeruselum in the first place.
    Agreed, and it was Richard I who offered to Saladin's brother, his sister in marriage, in order to build a lasting truce. Both men highly respected each other.
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  21. #20 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    However, I do not think it is any coincidence that the most theocratic religion on the planet is the one in which we find such terrorist organizations, if for no other reason than the fact that a such a religion is more useful as a tool of power.
    This makes a great deal of sense. If I understand you correctly you are blaming the atrocities on political motiviations that use religious structures to achieve their ends, rather than religions that control and direct politicians. In either case it is the 'innocent' members of society who tend to suffer, but if we incorrectly identify the root cause it becomes more difficult to constrain it.
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  22. #21 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    However, I do not think it is any coincidence that the most theocratic religion on the planet is the one in which we find such terrorist organizations, if for no other reason than the fact that a such a religion is more useful as a tool of power.
    And what do you think of the fact that most invasions and occupations in the last century, not to mention the most killings in war, have been by either non-religious states or democratic ones?
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  23. #22 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    However, I do not think it is any coincidence that the most theocratic religion on the planet is the one in which we find such terrorist organizations, if for no other reason than the fact that a such a religion is more useful as a tool of power.
    And what do you think of the fact that most invasions and occupations in the last century, not to mention the most killings in war, have been by either non-religious states or democratic ones?
    All that would indicate is that the most powerful countries in the world during that time have been non-religious or democratic ones.
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    I agree with your assessment, I was just curious you would say that:

    I do not think it is any coincidence that the most theocratic religion on the planet is the one in which we find such terrorist organizations
    It would seem that its easier to convince people to terrorise/kill for the "right" reasons no matter the theological bent. The Khmer Rouge, for instance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    It would seem that its easier to convince people to terrorise/kill for the "right" reasons no matter the theological bent. The Khmer Rouge, for instance.
    Well of course but that doesn't mean that the people doing the convincing or footing the bill are telling the truth now does it?



    Oh and does the picture go with "The abuse of children in any way, shape or form"? Does that mean that what we can only call something the abuse of children if it produces bones like those in the picture?
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Well of course but that doesn't mean that the people doing the convincing or footing the bill are telling the truth now does it?
    In that case all motivations are equally suspect.


    Oh and does the picture go with "The abuse of children in any way, shape or form"? Does that mean that what we can only call something the abuse of children if it produces bones like those in the picture?
    Apparently not; those are just collateral damages.
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by samcdkey
    Oh and does the picture go with "The abuse of children in any way, shape or form"? Does that mean that what we can only call something the abuse of children if it produces bones like those in the picture?
    Apparently not; those are just collateral damages.
    Oh sorry. I missed the reference to Khmer Rouge, somehow. Now I understand what the picture was about. Yes the atheists complain and complain about all the supposed evils of relgion, but the great experiment of communism, expunging religion from the world is an absolute failure. Such one-dimensional approaches to the challenges of life to be found in any sort of self-lobotomized ideologues, whether theist or atheist are ultimate danger that we all must guard against.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Yes the atheists complain and complain about all the supposed evils of relgion, but the great experiment of communism, expunging religion from the world is an absolute failure. Such one-dimensional approaches to the challenges of life to be found in any sort of self-lobotomized ideologues, whether theist or atheist are ultimate danger that we all must guard against.
    Communism's ideologue was not to expunge religion from the world, Mitch. I'm surprised you of all people would make such a claim.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Such one-dimensional approaches to the challenges of life to be found in any sort of self-lobotomized ideologues, whether theist or atheist are ultimate danger that we all must guard against.
    Agreed.
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  30. #29 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)

    The only thing Muslims really accomplished is the building of mosques and shrines for their bloodthirsty caliphs.
    The so-called "Islamic Golden Age" was only one small step above the Dark Ages, but was as putrid a time period as any other for those who endured it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Yes the atheists complain and complain about all the supposed evils of relgion, but the great experiment of communism, expunging religion from the world is an absolute failure. Such one-dimensional approaches to the challenges of life to be found in any sort of self-lobotomized ideologues, whether theist or atheist are ultimate danger that we all must guard against.
    Communism's ideologue was not to expunge religion from the world, Mitch. I'm surprised you of all people would make such a claim.
    Not its sole ideology.
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  32. #31 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyd
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)

    The only thing Muslims really accomplished is the building of mosques and shrines for their bloodthirsty caliphs.
    The so-called "Islamic Golden Age" was only one small step above the Dark Ages, but was as putrid a time period as any other for those who endured it.
    Shalom!
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Yes the atheists complain and complain about all the supposed evils of relgion, but the great experiment of communism, expunging religion from the world is an absolute failure. Such one-dimensional approaches to the challenges of life to be found in any sort of self-lobotomized ideologues, whether theist or atheist are ultimate danger that we all must guard against.
    Communism's ideologue was not to expunge religion from the world, Mitch. I'm surprised you of all people would make such a claim.
    Not its sole idealogue.
    It's clear that atheism was a part of communism, yes. "Religion is the opiate of the people" ~ Karl Marx. And Stalin was, as far as I understand, an atheist.

    Any idealogue strengthened with strong faith is dangerous, even atheism.

    I remember having a discussion with Mitch about this where my thoughts on this matter changed.

    I used to defend atheism too much back then...
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    Ok now, this attrocious assasination of the English language has to change. Ideologue (pronounced ideolog) is a person who relates to life and the world through a rigid and narrow system of thought. That rigid and narrow system of thought is called an ideology. What is rather typical of an ideologues application of his ideology to the world is to gloss over inconvenient details that do not fit the pronouncements of his ideology.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Ok now, this attrocious assasination of the English language has to change. Ideologue (pronounced ideolog) is a person who relates to life and the world through a rigid and narrow system of thought. That rigid and narrow system of thought is called an ideology. What is rather typical of an ideologues application of his ideology to the world is to gloss over inconvenient details that do not fit the pronouncements of his ideology.
    Thanks. I was getting confused over that. :P

    (And I was too lazy to check up on it as well).
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  36. #35  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously

    It's clear that atheism was a part of communism, yes. "Religion is the opiate of the people" ~ Karl Marx. And Stalin was, as far as I understand, an atheist.
    Yet, atheism really had very little to do with the success of communism.

    In order for communism to be successful, ALL aspects of the society must be taken into consideration, from it's economical strategies to it's religious systems. Every aspect of life had to be under the control of the proletariat and that had to include religion. And since religious beliefs held enormous power over the people, it had to be replaced with a belief in communism with as much fervor as the belief in gods.
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  37. #36 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    "But if you see the soil of India with your own eyes and meditate on its nature, if you consider the rounded stones found in earth however deeply you dig, stones that are huge near the mountains and where the rivers have a violent current: stones that are of smaller size at a greater distance from the mountains and where the streams flow more slowly: stones that appear pulverised in the shape of sand where the streams begin to stagnate near their mouths and near the sea - if you consider all this you can scarcely help thinking that India was once a sea, which by degrees has been filled up by the alluvium of the streams." -Abu Rayhan Biruni 973-1048 CE
    "[the Qur'an] does not interfere in the business of science nor does it infringe on the realm of science." -Abu Rayhan Biruni

    And while Newton was indeed a devout Christian, we don't hear claims that his time was the "Golden Age of Christianity."
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  38. #37  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously

    It's clear that atheism was a part of communism, yes. "Religion is the opiate of the people" ~ Karl Marx. And Stalin was, as far as I understand, an atheist.
    Yet, atheism really had very little to do with the success of communism.

    In order for communism to be successful, ALL aspects of the society must be taken into consideration, from it's economical strategies to it's religious systems. Every aspect of life had to be under the control of the proletariat and that had to include religion. And since religious beliefs held enormous power over the people, it had to be replaced with a belief in communism with as much fervor as the belief in gods.
    What sucess of communism? It failed for many reasons, one is mentioned by you. It also failed by limiting religious as well as political freedom, atheism wasn't why communism fell, but atheist bigotry was one reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Ok now, this attrocious assasination of the English language has to change. Ideologue (pronounced ideolog) is a person who relates to life and the world through a rigid and narrow system of thought. That rigid and narrow system of thought is called an ideology. What is rather typical of an ideologues application of his ideology to the world is to gloss over inconvenient details that do not fit the pronouncements of his ideology.
    Sorry, changed it on the first post
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  40. #39 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    "But if you see the soil of India with your own eyes and meditate on its nature, if you consider the rounded stones found in earth however deeply you dig, stones that are huge near the mountains and where the rivers have a violent current: stones that are of smaller size at a greater distance from the mountains and where the streams flow more slowly: stones that appear pulverised in the shape of sand where the streams begin to stagnate near their mouths and near the sea - if you consider all this you can scarcely help thinking that India was once a sea, which by degrees has been filled up by the alluvium of the streams." -Abu Rayhan Biruni 973-1048 CE
    "[the Qur'an] does not interfere in the business of science nor does it infringe on the realm of science." -Abu Rayhan Biruni

    And while Newton was indeed a devout Christian, we don't hear claims that his time was the "Golden Age of Christianity."
    In clear contradiction of:

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    The only thing Muslims really accomplished is the building of mosques and shrines for their bloodthirsty caliphs.
    I think we can both agree that when those of a religious bent try to use holy texts to interfere with science, that this is undesirable, but you are saying something very different.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    What sucess of communism? It failed for many reasons, one is mentioned by you. It also failed by limiting religious as well as political freedom, atheism wasn't why communism fell, but atheist bigotry was one reason.
    Nonsense. Communism is alive and well. And, those countries it failed had nothing to do with atheism, let alone atheist bigotry, whatever that is.
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  42. #41 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    I think we can both agree that when those of a religious bent try to use holy texts to interfere with science, that this is undesirable, but you are saying something very different.
    What I was saying was that Islam had nothing to do with Biruni's work, which is what the Golden Age of Islam accredits, in clear contrast to what Muslims were actually doing.
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    I couldn't find the original source, there was a very good quote from a news report about the recent Mumbai blastings. It went along the lines that in order to achieve a greater (religious) good, they (the terrorists) were convinced to commit something that would've been a sin; it's like being intoxicated with alcohol, it's a bad thing according to their religion but they go through it because they want to uphold the name of Islam etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    What sucess of communism? It failed for many reasons, one is mentioned by you. It also failed by limiting religious as well as political freedom, atheism wasn't why communism fell, but atheist bigotry was one reason.
    Nonsense. Communism is alive and well. And, those countries it failed had nothing to do with atheism, let alone atheist bigotry, whatever that is.
    By persecuting those of religious belief, communist countries, to this day face fierce opposition from most of the world and many of their own citizens. This may have contributed to its downfall in most of the countries it was tried in. Also by comparing the French revolution and the American revolution, it is clear that religious tolerance is very important for trying any type of government, including democracy. I realize that communism is still alive but I'd refrain from saying it is well.
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  45. #44 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    I think we can both agree that when those of a religious bent try to use holy texts to interfere with science, that this is undesirable, but you are saying something very different.
    What I was saying was that Islam had nothing to do with Biruni's work, which is what the Golden Age of Islam accredits, in clear contrast to what Muslims were actually doing.
    So Muslims (such as Biruni) are capable of good?
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    those countries it failed had nothing to do with atheism
    Um, Afghanistan? Tibet? Ever heard the term "Godless commie"?

    Grow up: the enemy of your enemy needn't be your friend.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  47. #46  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    By persecuting those of religious belief, communist countries, to this day face fierce opposition from most of the world and many of their own citizens. This may have contributed to its downfall in most of the countries it was tried in. Also by comparing the French revolution and the American revolution, it is clear that religious tolerance is very important for trying any type of government, including democracy. I realize that communism is still alive but I'd refrain from saying it is well.
    I never said that communism was a good way of getting rid of religion, as it's doctrines are written as a type of scripture itself, replacing gods with dictators, so to speak.

    And, of course, the primary goal of communism isn't to persecute theists. It is essential for communism to have a stranglehold over all aspects of the state and the people. Religious freedoms don't fit that model, as do any other kind of freedoms.

    I wouldn't agree religious tolerance has anything to do with making up a government. Governments should treat religions like any other business, demand they pay taxes, for example.
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  48. #47 Re: does islam/arabs support extremist muslims(terriost) 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golkarian

    So Muslims (such as Biruni) are capable of good?
    Biruni's work was largely based on the spoils of Islamic conquests. Without the murdering rampage of Muslims spreading their religion across the known world by the sword, Biruni most likely wouldn't have done anything at all.
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Um, Afghanistan? Tibet? Ever heard the term "Godless commie"?
    Yes, uttered by delusional western Christians. Perhaps you might not know that the Soviet Union was filled with practicing Christians?

    Grow up: the enemy of your enemy needn't be your friend.
    Bite me.
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  50. #49  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Um, Afghanistan? Tibet? Ever heard the term "Godless commie"?
    Yes, uttered by delusional western Christians.
    I wouldn't characterize Uyghur rebels, Afghan tribes, or Dalai Lama followers as "western". According to them, socialism and atheism go hand in hand.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I wouldn't characterize Uyghur rebels, Afghan tribes, or Dalai Lama followers as "western". According to them, socialism and atheism go hand in hand.
    Then, they clearly know very little about socialism and are obviously focusing on what's important to them and ignoring the rest.

    For example, an atheist who wishes to have his business thrive would focus on how socialism might impede his ventures. He would most likely be against socialism, yet he is an atheist.

    See the difference?
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  52. #51  
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    I was picking on your assertion that - I think you meant - atheism played no part in communism's failures. Clearly atheistic socialist ideology has grated on religious tradition, and vise versa. Socialist values however - without the heavy dogma - can agree with religious values. E.g. Latin America. I'll bet there it is the atheists as often as not opposing socialist programs.
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  53. #52  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I was picking on your assertion that - I think you meant - atheism played no part in communism's failures.
    Atheism or theism may or may not play a part in the success or failure of communism, that isn't the point at all.

    The point is how theists focus on their assertions that atheism=socialism/communism.

    You might find that the Twenty-seventh Party Congress in 1986 did not start out with, "Atheism is dead, long live theism."
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  54. #53  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    The point is how theists focus on their assertions that atheism=socialism/communism.
    I've never heard it quite that way. What i have heard is that atheism begets communism (among other vile things), and therefore socialism must be inherently wicked by association. It's a nice argument to use on theists.

    Honestly I believe there is some truth to it. Atheism does beget original and probably intellectual worldview and morality, which very well could have communist ideals.

    Anyway the mujaheddin were basically correct in labeling USSR an anti-religious force, and most Afghanis had to agree. So they took sides.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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  55. #54  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    I've never heard it quite that way. What i have heard is that atheism begets communism (among other vile things), and therefore socialism must be inherently wicked by association.
    You've never heard it quite that way yet you just said it that way.

    Honestly I believe there is some truth to it. Atheism does beget original and probably intellectual worldview and morality, which very well could have communist ideals.
    Then, you too focus on the same thing.

    Anyway the mujaheddin were basically correct in labeling USSR an anti-religious force, and most Afghanis had to agree. So they took sides.
    Same, same.
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  56. #55  
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    yet you just said it that way.
    I said the thought's muddier than "this equals that".
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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