Notices
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 118

Thread: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum

  1. #1 The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    567
    I suppose i need to qualify that statement rather than just laying it out there.

    It is my personal belief that religion has no place in science, and also that science has no place in religion, by this i mean that a scientific method to disprove a so called god is counter intuitive.
    so my thing is that the sub-forum shouldn't even be here, i am sure others have made this point before me.

    But what really interests me is the amount of religous people on this forum, the main type of thread here is people trying to disprove god using science, so the religous person should just not bother with them because they have faith, and should be self assured that they will go to heaven for believing, or whatever there belief system states.
    But an extraordinary number of people reply, and defend the belief they have strongly, perhaps this is understandable but from my point of view this is not the behaviour of someone with true faith.

    Perhaps it is understandable as they are trying to convert people to the religion.
    However the responses from the religous members of the forum are often nothing more than disrespectful personal attacks, that aim to humiliate and devalue another person's point of view.
    Not only is this a highly inefficent conversion method. but to me it does not seem to follow any religous teachings.
    So my final point is this. religous forum members this is not the place for you. but if for some reason. you must be here (unsure of your beliefs, want to insult people behind the cover of a computer. etc.) then please discuss the issue at hand not another person's character.

    thanks


    everything is mathematical.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    159
    I agree with you on the insults bit. It's incredibly childish and only faintly amusing.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    *Notices Organic is from London*
    Hows the UK this time of year? Im going there this September as part of a work study program.

    /thread jack
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    *Notices Organic is from London*
    Hows the UK this time of year? Im going there this September as part of a work study program.

    /thread jack
    Seriously cold spells mate. (At least from our sheltered point of view where 0 Celsius is cold).

    September should be lovely, though - end of Summer and all that with seasons of mist and mellow fruitfulness.

    Regarding the OP, perhaps there is something to be said for restoring the old terminology (used by Hume et al) and talking about Natural Religion (any attempt to prove or justify using religion by natural/scientific means rather than the justification of faith). Natural religions are of necessity evidentiary and the subject for scientific discussion. As you point out faith, on the other hand, can only be part of a scientific discussion if we are discussing the psychology of faith.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    173
    i think there should delte this sub-forum.. to much people ask stupid question, other insult many people religions, and i belive this sub- forum is there so people can insult people religions and to degrade religion as some sort of cave man thing

    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i think there should delte this sub-forum.. to much people ask stupid question, other insult many people religions, and i belive this sub- forum is there so people can insult people religions and to degrade religion as some sort of cave man thing

    Religion is a pseudoscience, and as such, has every right to be here.
    I very rarely see anybody ad homing, a religious person usually the other way round, mainly due to the religious persons inability to separate themselves from the dogma of their particular religion
    Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.
    The religious seem to also, be unaware that they too insult the next mans religion, just as much as a non believer.
    The religious forum whether it's here or not makes no difference to any member, however it does help to better understand the mentality of the religious, thus making any member here, aware of the possible dangers that can befall them, from the religious, in the real world.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos

    Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.
    Religion is not an 'evil institution'. All humans have a religious instinct. Even science has this instinct because it seeks to discover what is beyond the obvious. It seeks how things work behind the scenes and what's the cause of natural phenomena.

    Religion pretty much does the same. It's a natural instinct that we all have to consider what might lie in the invisible, beyond our human limited range or perception.

    Man naturally wonders if there might be such a things as a God or some invisible force overseeing everything.

    The only evil which comes into it is the arguments over the interpretation of this invisible force.
    And the biggest evil comes from the 'institutionalization' of religion, because it becomes set in stone and stationary. Where it becomes lifeless, stagnant and outmoded. People become 'evil' when they continue to cling to it and remain trapped in this stagnation.
    Whereas the natural religious instinct is full of life, ever moving, growing, inquiring and should be constantly changing as it develops and incorporates new knowledge.

    It is a spiritual endeavor whereby a person can gain a lot of knowledge beyond the physical realm into the invisible and discover the nature behind the scenes of themselves and their environment and develop an aspect of a higher self which some call an aspect of Divinity.

    Anyone that is foolish enough to take offense at another persons opinion about their faith or religion can be quite certain that they are yet to experience Divinity or their higher self, because they would be far beyond and above that trivial pettiness entirely.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    567
    *Notices Organic is from London*
    Hows the UK this time of year? Im going there this September as part of a work study program.
    UK is cold but then again it always is so what can you do.

    however london has beautiful areas all year round, anytime i go running through hyde park is an incredible experience. especially in the autumn (approx september)
    everything is mathematical.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    *Notices Organic is from London*
    Hows the UK this time of year? Im going there this September as part of a work study program.
    UK is cold but then again it always is so what can you do.

    however london has beautiful areas all year round, anytime i go running through hyde park is an incredible experience. especially in the autumn (approx september)
    What does the weather have to do with the OP??

    Perhaps you guys should open a thread in General so you can discuss the weather and the seasons of London?
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos

    Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.
    Religion is not an 'evil institution'.
    Absumi note that my post states. Quote "unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack. "
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    All humans have a religious instinct.
    Absolute pseudo BS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    The only evil which comes into it is the arguments over the interpretation of this invisible force.
    Exactly Gods didn't write the holy books, man did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    And the biggest evil comes from the 'institutionalization' of religion.
    Hence why I refer to religion as an evil institution.
    Thanks for the unusual, but round about way of agreeing. Quote "Religion per se is an evil institution"
    And way to contradict yourself.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos

    Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.
    Religion is not an 'evil institution'.
    Absumi note that my post states. Quote "unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack. "
    Err calm down woman, nobody was taking it as a religious attack, i was simply making you aware of the error in your statement.


    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    All humans have a religious instinct.
    Absolute pseudo BS.
    You have such a graceless way of putting things. I feel very sorry for you if you have lost touch with this part in yourself. It must be very isolating. Which is obvious in your inability to communicate effectively.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    The only evil which comes into it is the arguments over the interpretation of this invisible force.
    Exactly Gods didn't write the holy books, man did.
    Well you're not exactly claiming anything new here, I think most people know that.



    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    And the biggest evil comes from the 'institutionalization' of religion.
    Hence why I refer to religion as an evil institution.
    Sigh, you haven't grasped the argument at all have you. Religion begins with an individuals inspiration and then becomes Institutionalized when it has been written down into scriptures and doctrines and rules and is implemented into a social system by people, prior to that it is purely religious instinct. If you had any academic education into the nature of religions and their history you would understand this.
    I get the feeling I'm wasting my time here because you've buried yourself beneath such a defensive wall about the term 'religion' that it is hopeless.
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Thanks for the unusual, but round about way of agreeing. Quote "Religion per se is an evil institution"
    And way to contradict yourself.
    Yes i was right. It is hopeless.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Absum and Pavlos,

    Without making any judgements here or suggesting that either of you is in the wrong in any way, I would like to suggest that you have both said your piece, so to speak, and going any farther in your hostilities would be pointless. In other words, I would like to ask you both to focus on the topic and not on each other. We all have our flaws but no one has been hired here to be the other person's character doctor and no one has proven that they have any licence to make such adjustments, so lets just focus on discussing ideas and not persons, ok?

    Moderator
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13 Re: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    I suppose i need to qualify that statement rather than just laying it out there.

    It is my personal belief that religion has no place in science, and also that science has no place in religion, by this i mean that a scientific method to disprove a so called god is counter intuitive.
    so my thing is that the sub-forum shouldn't even be here, i am sure others have made this point before me.
    The main function of this subforum is to help in the efforts to keep religious topics out of the other subforums. People are religious and therefore they WILL talk about this stuff and so having a place to do so helps.

    It is also acts as a buffer in which the religious can be educated about what science is about, for it is possible that they might actually find interest in scientifc topics. And with the religion subsection to which inappropriate topics can be sent, participants and learn how to make a distinction between scientific topics and religious topics themselves.



    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    But what really interests me is the amount of religous people on this forum, the main type of thread here is people trying to disprove god using science, so the religous person should just not bother with them because they have faith, and should be self assured that they will go to heaven for believing, or whatever there belief system states.
    There are a lot of religious people in the world and your presumptions about what their religion is all about is rather ignorant. Some in fact believe quite the opposite of what you have stated.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    But an extraordinary number of people reply, and defend the belief they have strongly, perhaps this is understandable but from my point of view this is not the behaviour of someone with true faith.
    Spoken like a real religious person with your own peculiar ideas of what relgion should be. But your religion is not my religion and your definition of "true faith" is not my definition of "true faith".


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    Perhaps it is understandable as they are trying to convert people to the religion.
    Ahhh.... so that is what you are trying to do. Would it help if we just said, no thank you (sound of phone hanging up and door slamming).


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    However the responses from the religous members of the forum are often nothing more than disrespectful personal attacks, that aim to humiliate and devalue another person's point of view.
    True.... ESPECIALLY if by religious members of the forum you include the agnostics and atheists.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    So my final point is this. religous forum members this is not the place for you. but if for some reason. you must be here (unsure of your beliefs, want to insult people behind the cover of a computer. etc.)
    This forum is for EVERYONE. BUT let me inform all the agnostic and atheist forum members that your beliefs in regards to religious topics do not make you the slightest bit more of a scientist than any of the religious people here. But if for some reason you feel a need to express your contempt for religion, the religion subsection is here for you to do so, and when you have finished venting you might learn a little of what you did not understand about religion or science or share a little of what you do understand about religion or science.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    then please discuss the issue at hand not another person's character.
    Well I can certainly second that sentiment with haleluahs and rousing applause!
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Absum and Pavlos,

    Without making any judgements here or suggesting that either of you is in the wrong in any way, I would like to suggest that you have both said your piece, so to speak, and going any farther in your hostilities would be pointless. In other words, I would like to ask you both to focus on the topic and not on each other. We all have our flaws but no one has been hired here to be the other person's character doctor and no one has proven that they have any licence to make such adjustments, so lets just focus on discussing ideas and not persons, ok?

    Moderator
    I appreciate your view Mitchell. However I think your statement was a little unfair towards me, I was sticking to the subject, I was just aghast as to how someone could agree and in the same breath disagree this is shown by her blatant contradiction of her own statement, and please note she condemned me, the worse I said was, "absolute pseudo BS", and that was directed at her unusual claim, she was personal not I.
    I said my piece on this topic earlier.
    I understand you thought I would take issue with her ad homs, and wished to stop it before it began.
    I had read what she had said, but found it sad that she had no other recourse than to get personal. And yes I do realise, you were only being diplomatic.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Dear me some discussion are impossible due to certain factors beyond my control.

    Pavlos I was criticizing your argument in the statement you made -

    Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.

    And pointing out to you that religions are regarded in the educated world to have only been institutionalized once they become written down and structured in order to create a following.

    I was also pointing out the obvious from your embittered conflicting response that you hadn't quite grasped the argument.

    Perhaps then we could also say-

    Ignorance based on the belief that the universe is governed by pure rationalism and it's worship thereof, per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately its adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.


    If you confuse me criticizing your argument with criticizing you personally then that's simply down to you and your perception.

    Mckain - Don't worry Mckain this won't develop into a long running argument, I really can't be bothered anymore if folk who enter into debates can't make the effort themselves to think out of the box.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Pavlos.. What you said is a logical Fallacy. Just because something evil is born from religion it does not make religion evil. Religion started as story telling from the elders of a village. People ARE drawn to where they came from (and most notably religious aspects) Since people do not understand how we exist, they turn to supernatural forces. This is an instinct in curiosity and conclusion. They are curious of how we are here. So the elder comes to a conclusion of why we are here. God's creating us is the most logical conclusion that ancient people could think of.

    Don't let your hate for religion blind your critical thinking. There is a reason religion was created. It was to tell myths and stories. When individuals begin to believe these myths with utmost certainty, and they are willing to die for their beliefs, that is when evil is created. Evil didn't create religion, but evil does use religion for control.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    439
    Yawn.....

    I think it is ill thought out to suggest religion is evil, I would suggest that some people practice evil whilst holding up religion as some form of justification. Science, that can be really bloody evil, if you invent something and it can be turned to killing people well you have it made!

    Religion and science need (IMHO) to coexist we need a balance to all views an alternative, even Einstein was hesitant when asked if he believed in a GOd, indeed I think he indicated a choice between a god and the big bang (as the cause of creation) was not much of a choice.

    Many people derive great comfort from the belief in religion and should not be mocked or chastised for their beliefs, in many western countries religion and science coexist and long may they both continue.

    My personal views? having had a religious upringing till the age of about 14 it is difficult to cast aside that which was drummed into me each day at school, thus now I believe a deity is improbable but not impossible,

    Religion has been around in some form for possible tens of thousands of years, modern science barely 250 years. Progress by modern science in any 1 year of it's brief history has been more than any thousand years under religion. It is clear that in any place where religion has given way to science, modern science has transformed civilisation.

    Some might suggest that a deity has given us modern science but that is guess work by religious people who can't explain (in that case) why Adam and Eve were not given science to start with.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18 Re: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    567
    The main function of this subforum is to help in the efforts to keep religious topics out of the other subforums. People are religious and therefore they WILL talk about this stuff and so having a place to do so helps.
    if they want to talk about religion i believe that a scientific forum is the wrong place for it. For it is my opinion that the two are exclusive. maybe a religous forum is a better idea.



    It is also acts as a buffer in which the religious can be educated about what science is about, for it is possible that they might actually find interest in scientifc topics. And with the religion subsection to which inappropriate topics can be sent, participants and learn how to make a distinction between scientific topics and religious topics themselves.
    I don't agree with this, for someone to come across this science forum it is most likely because they have searched "science forum" into google, i think that the chances of a religous person using this website for a religous discussion then noticing hey look it is a science page now i can learn about science is highly unlikely.
    It is useful for people to make a distinction between a scientifc topic and a religous topic, but a greater distinction could be made by not including a religous section on a scientific website agreed?


    Spoken like a real religious person with your own peculiar ideas of what relgion should be. But your religion is not my religion and your definition of "true faith" is not my definition of "true faith".
    Perhaps but in christianity faith in a god means that you don't have to justify your belief, you just believe he is there.



    Ahhh.... so that is what you are trying to do. Would it help if we just said, no thank you (sound of phone hanging up and door slamming).
    I am not converting people to a religion? i don't know where you got that from

    This forum is for EVERYONE. BUT let me inform all the agnostic and atheist forum members that your beliefs in regards to religious topics do not make you the slightest bit more of a scientist than any of the religious people here. But if for some reason you feel a need to express your contempt for religion, the religion subsection is here for you to do so, and when you have finished venting you might learn a little of what you did not understand about religion or science or share a little of what you do understand about religion or science.
    Basically your point is that anyone who is an atheist has contempt for religion, not necessarily true i know many atheists who accept religion but don't believe in god.
    and then go on to say that all atheists just come on here to vent, again not true.

    this is just being disrepectful in my opinion.
    everything is mathematical.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Pavlos.. What you said is a logical Fallacy. .
    I'm sorry Verzen I beg to differ.

    There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.

    look at the impact, religion has had in the last few decades:

    1. the murder of 3,000 people in the 9/11 attacks by Islamic terrorists.
    2. 60,000 people killed in Iraq by the combination of Christian-fueled rage in the US and civil war between Sunnis and Shiites.
    3. long term war in Yugoslavia.
    4. long term war in Ireland
    5. Judaism used as an excuse to seize land and discriminate against Palestinian people
    6. celibacy for Catholic priests leading to repeated and prolonged sexual abuse of boys by men who are confused about their sexual existence.

    And this does not include the on going evils that are happening right now throughout the world.

    The holy books incite violence.

    Religion is divisive and provides impetus for discrimination, cruelty, family breakup, and persecution toward those of different religion. Religion is a medium for some people's hypocrisy. Even murder and child neglect are sometimes ordered by the god.

    Religion is the reason man is so divided.

    It was Steven Weinberg (Nobel laureate in physics who said : “With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil — but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”

    And I'm only referring to the last few decades, religion throughout history has been evil incarnate.

    I don't need to list all it's ills do I.

    So no I don't thing it is a logical fallacy, Religion is evil.

    Or are you saying that it not the religion thats evil, it's the storytellers.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20 Re: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    if they want to talk about religion i believe that a scientific forum is the wrong place for it.
    Yet, here you are posting on the Religion subforum. Funny thing about that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Im saying that religion itself is not evil. It's the people who use religion to commit such evil. People find reasonings to go to war all the time.
    The Bible has a lot of hateful things in it. But the bible was also written by men. I believe the Christian faith is a horrible religion as it is interpreted today.. But you can't say religion is evil when Pope soandso was the cause of something. That is called pawning off the cause and is a logical fallacy.
    Leave the blame with the people who use it for evil. Religion started off as storytelling by the elder's. Do you think the elders trying to entertain the children of that age were evil? Do you think the stories they told were evil? Religion became bad when men started to actually believe their stories and form convictions from the stories.
    War's with religion started with the thought, "My way is the only way to salvation."
    But people fight wars and commit atrocities. Idea's arn't bad unless someone corrupts the idea.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22 Re: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    if they want to talk about religion i believe that a scientific forum is the wrong place for it. For it is my opinion that the two are exclusive. maybe a religous forum is a better idea.
    Yes and no. There are plenty of more serious scientifically oriented forums and if you don't want to be bothered with people who really haven't a clue as to what science is about then perhaps they would appeal to you more. This forum is a bit more tolerant and we put up with a lot of nonsense in our dedication to the attempt to help people understand better what science is all about. Every forum has to find is niche and appeal to its own unique audience, for if all forums are the same that would be rather pointless.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    It is also acts as a buffer in which the religious can be educated about what science is about, for it is possible that they might actually find interest in scientifc topics. And with the religion subsection to which inappropriate topics can be sent, participants and learn how to make a distinction between scientific topics and religious topics themselves.
    I don't agree with this, for someone to come across this science forum it is most likely because they have searched "science forum" into google, i think that the chances of a religous person using this website for a religous discussion then noticing hey look it is a science page now i can learn about science is highly unlikely.
    Just because someone comes searching for "science forum" does not mean that they have much understanding of what science is. We get a lot of enthusiastic muslims that think that the Koran has given them insight into science (LOL). The point is to give people the opportunity, however rarely it might succeed, for people who have enough interest to make that search for "science forum" to learn something about what science is, and perhaps appreciate what it is trying to accomplish to whatever degree they are capable.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    It is useful for people to make a distinction between a scientifc topic and a religous topic, but a greater distinction could be made by not including a religous section on a scientific website agreed?
    An all french forum that does not allow any english to be spoken will only be helpful in learning french for those with some degree competency in french. For some people science is very much like a foreign language and the real kicker is that people often don't even realize how foreign it is to their usual way of thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    Spoken like a real religious person with your own peculiar ideas of what relgion should be. But your religion is not my religion and your definition of "true faith" is not my definition of "true faith".
    Perhaps but in christianity faith in a god means that you don't have to justify your belief, you just believe he is there.
    Christianity and words like "faith" means different things to different people. I think there is a pretty solid consensus about Christianity in the Nicean creed, but finding a consensus on the meaning of the word "faith" is more difficult. For example, I define faith as a multifaceted response to the unavoidable reality of uncertainty that proceeds from choice to belief and to action, as the foundation of ALL knowledge, for knowledge is that which we live by regardless of the fact that these things cannot be absolutely proven.

    I find your definition to be completely wrong and useless and thus a definition invented for the purpose of making the word useless. People don't in general HAVE to justify their opinions about anything, but they nevertheless DO justify their opinions/beliefs about things because it is only in that process of justification or rationalization that their beliefs become meaningful and applicable to the context of their lives. AND that in fact means that this is essential for it to be called faith at all, for it is only in that applicability that idle opinion becomes acted upon as knowledge, which is the very function of faith in the first place.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    Ahhh.... so that is what you are trying to do. Would it help if we just said, no thank you (sound of phone hanging up and door slamming).
    I am not converting people to a religion? i don't know where you got that from
    Ahhh so you see... attributing motives to others can so easily miss the mark. I grant you that a lot of religious come here with such intentions, for this is indeed a common motivation of the religious. But I would include in these religious, the atheists (and even agnostics) who think that the theists are irrational and should therefore learn to be more sensible and rational as they imagine themselves to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    This forum is for EVERYONE. BUT let me inform all the agnostic and atheist forum members that your beliefs in regards to religious topics do not make you the slightest bit more of a scientist than any of the religious people here. But if for some reason you feel a need to express your contempt for religion, the religion subsection is here for you to do so, and when you have finished venting you might learn a little of what you did not understand about religion or science or share a little of what you do understand about religion or science.
    Basically your point is that anyone who is an atheist has contempt for religion, not necessarily true i know many atheists who accept religion but don't believe in god.
    and then go on to say that all atheists just come on here to vent, again not true.

    this is just being disrepectful in my opinion.
    No that is NOT my point. That couldn't be my point since I know that this simply isn't true. But perhaps I said this in a one sided manner that misled you. So...

    This forum is for EVERYONE. BUT let me inform all the theistic and spritual forum members that your beliefs in regards to religious topics do not make you the slightest bit more of an authority on the nature of reality or morality. But if for some reason you feel a need to express your contempt for atheism, the religion subsection is here for you to do so, and when you have finished venting you might learn a little of what you did not understand about atheism, religion or science or share a little of what you do understand about religion or science.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Im saying that religion itself is not evil. It's the people who use religion to commit such evil. People find reasonings to go to war all the time.
    The Bible has a lot of hateful things in it. But the bible was also written by men. I believe the Christian faith is a horrible religion as it is interpreted today.. But you can't say religion is evil when Pope soandso was the cause of something. That is called pawning off the cause and is a logical fallacy.
    Leave the blame with the people who use it for evil. Religion started off as storytelling by the elder's. Do you think the elders trying to entertain the children of that age were evil? Do you think the stories they told were evil? Religion became bad when men started to actually believe their stories and form convictions from the stories.
    War's with religion started with the thought, "My way is the only way to salvation."
    But people fight wars and commit atrocities. Idea's arn't bad unless someone corrupts the idea.
    Religion is the direct cause of the corrupted ideas, people have a tendency to interpret the religion whatever way they wish, this is why we have so many different types of religions, all due to the dogma within, so how do you separate the dogma from the religion, How do you make the adherents abide to the the good parts and ignore the evil. now that the evil within has established itself.

    Why did the Aztecs commit human sacrifice, what caused them to do that. was it by any chance there religion, why did the Greeks fight a war with the Persians, was it the gods that spurred them on. yes they might have fought regardless of having a religion. but the Aztecs would not have committed human sacrifice without it.
    religion is most definitely evil.

    It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things. There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. - Richard Dawkins
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion is the direct cause of the corrupted ideas, people have a tendency to interpret the religion whatever way they wish,
    Those two statements are contradictory, are they not? If religion is the cause, then what is the cause of people interpreting the religion? The religion cannot be the cause of its own interpretation.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion is the direct cause of the corrupted ideas, people have a tendency to interpret the religion whatever way they wish,
    Those two statements are contradictory, are they not? If religion is the cause, then what is the cause of people interpreting the religion? The religion cannot be the cause of its own interpretation.
    I would agree with Harold, most often religion requires little interpretation and is straight forward with it's commands:

    "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

    Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

    A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

    Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    567
    Yet, here you are posting on the Religion subforum. Funny thing about that.
    So funny i forgot to laugh. I am not discussing religion in itself, more the discussion of whether we should discuss religion. that make sense?

    Just because someone comes searching for "science forum" does not mean that they have much understanding of what science is. We get a lot of enthusiastic muslims that think that the Koran has given them insight into science (LOL). The point is to give people the opportunity, however rarely it might succeed, for people who have enough interest to make that search for "science forum" to learn something about what science is, and perhaps appreciate what it is trying to accomplish to whatever degree they are capable.
    yes i will concede the point on this, if a person truly believes that religion and science are linked, then they will come searching for science to discuss there point. For this purpose the forum is useful, however i think the manner in which people try to "educate" people is flawed and disrespectful, probably just a sympton of the internet.
    everything is mathematical.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    So funny i forgot to laugh. I am not discussing religion in itself, more the discussion of whether we should discuss religion. that make sense?
    No.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Im saying that religion itself is not evil. It's the people who use religion to commit such evil. People find reasonings to go to war all the time.
    The Bible has a lot of hateful things in it. But the bible was also written by men. I believe the Christian faith is a horrible religion as it is interpreted today.. But you can't say religion is evil when Pope soandso was the cause of something. That is called pawning off the cause and is a logical fallacy.
    Leave the blame with the people who use it for evil. Religion started off as storytelling by the elder's. Do you think the elders trying to entertain the children of that age were evil? Do you think the stories they told were evil? Religion became bad when men started to actually believe their stories and form convictions from the stories.
    War's with religion started with the thought, "My way is the only way to salvation."
    But people fight wars and commit atrocities. Idea's arn't bad unless someone corrupts the idea.
    Religion is the direct cause of the corrupted ideas, people have a tendency to interpret the religion whatever way they wish, this is why we have so many different types of religions, all due to the dogma within, so how do you separate the dogma from the religion, How do you make the adherents abide to the the good parts and ignore the evil. now that the evil within has established itself.

    Why did the Aztecs commit human sacrifice, what caused them to do that. was it by any chance there religion, why did the Greeks fight a war with the Persians, was it the gods that spurred them on. yes they might have fought regardless of having a religion. but the Aztecs would not have committed human sacrifice without it.
    religion is most definitely evil.

    It is easy for religious faith, even if it is irrational in itself, to lead a sane and decent person, by rational, logical steps, to do terrible things. There is a logical path from religious faith to evil deeds. - Richard Dawkins
    Why did nietzsche's own work become the foundation for the nazi regime? Because nietzsche's sister was a racist and, after he had died, changed and twisted his work to what lead the Nazi regime to do what it did.
    Does that make neitzsche evil?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Masters Degree organic god's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    London
    Posts
    567
    ok in simpler terms.

    I am talking about whether we should discuss religion in a scientific forum. understand now?
    everything is mathematical.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    ok in simpler terms.

    I am talking about whether we should discuss religion in a scientific forum. understand now?
    I don't suspect that this forum or those that offer religious sub-forums are science forums. Most science forums that specifically focus on science don't offer those sub-forums.

    Here's a few examples:

    http://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9

    http://www.advancedphysics.org/forum/

    http://www.scienceforums.net/forum/
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Why did nietzsche's own work become the foundation for the nazi regime? Because nietzsche's sister was a racist and, after he had died, changed and twisted his work to what lead the Nazi regime to do what it did.
    Does that make neitzsche evil?
    in the 1930's Georges Bataille argued that nothing was more alien to Nietzsche than racism (anti-semitism), militarism, or the pan-germanism of the Nazi's, however Nietzsche did write about the Übermensch (superman)but that does not make him evil.
    It's all down to how it was interpreted. (Words have many meanings, others may not always be able to surmise the intent of a particular statement. Variations of word meanings in language always poses problems for people who try to construct a consistent and unambiguous statement. It often becomes the case that a Written statement could be interpreted in several ways by different individuals, thus rendering the statement subjective rather than objective. ) How do you remove the error, once it has established itself in the dogma, how do you change the thinking of a group of fundamentalists. How do you find the single thing that started the rot in the first place.
    Religion may have started out with good intentions, ( and we know were that leads) but has become the wholly evil thing it is today, There is no getting away from that fact. Unless of course, you could find a way to wipe it all away and start again.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion may have started out with good intentions, ( and we know were that leads) but has become the wholly evil thing it is today,
    Wholly evil? Come now. What is evil about a church sponsored charity, say?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion may have started out with good intentions, ( and we know were that leads) but has become the wholly evil thing it is today,
    Wholly evil? Come now. What is evil about a church sponsored charity, say?
    It's whats behind that veil of goodness, thats the problem, There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.

    Religion is divisive and provides impetus for discrimination, cruelty, family breakup, and persecution toward those of another religion. Religion is a medium for some people's hypocrisy. Even murder and child neglect are sometimes ordered by the god.

    Religion is the main reason man is so divided.

    “With or without religion, good people will do good things and bad people will do evil things, but for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Steven Weinberg
    Even the most devout and good religious person will kill if they believed it was what their god wanted.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.
    Prove it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.
    Prove it.
    Prove what, that nothing positive has been done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it.
    Or that there is plenty of evil that has and is being done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it. No one can deny the bad done in the name of religion.

    So do you want the former proven. Then I suggest you name something, anything and then think about it IE could this had been done had we not had religion.

    The answers out there.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.
    Prove it.
    Prove what, that nothing positive has been done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it.
    Or that there is plenty of evil that has and is being done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it. No one can deny the bad done in the name of religion.

    So do you want the former proven. Then I suggest you name something, anything and then think about it IE could this had been done had we not had religion.

    The answers out there.
    Yes, I can deny the bad done in the name of religion, because there is no objective definition of "bad." Your standards for good and bad done in the name of religion are different. I could just as well say there is nothing bad done in the name of religion that could not have been done without it. And I could say that religion is also responsible for many good things. I would have just as much evidence as you have.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    There is nothing positive that is done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it. However There is plenty of evil that is done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it.
    Prove it.
    Prove what, that nothing positive has been done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it.
    Or that there is plenty of evil that has and is being done in its name that wouldn't have been done had we not had it. No one can deny the bad done in the name of religion.

    So do you want the former proven. Then I suggest you name something, anything and then think about it IE could this had been done had we not had religion.

    The answers out there.
    Yes, I can deny the bad done in the name of religion
    Well thats a given, anybody who is religious would.
    Such is the effect on the mind, by the religious mind virus that controls them. I said this on page 1, post 5, of this thread "Religion per se is an evil institution, but unfortunately it's adherents are unaware of the extreme nastiness of it and thus take it as a personal attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    because there is no objective definition of "bad."
    Maybe so in your mind, however the ethic of reciprocity takes president, which religion has broken from the on set.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Your standards for good and bad done in the name of religion are different
    Not mine. Mine are natural/normal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I could just as well say there is nothing bad done in the name of religion that could not have been done without it.
    Could you, lol. what "Evils" has religion done that would have happen regardless of it existing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    And I could say that religion is also responsible for many good things.
    Could you, lol. What has religion done thats "good"
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I would have just as much evidence as you have.
    Lol, I very much doubt that.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    [Well thats a given, anybody who is religious would.
    What gave you the idea that I am religious?
    Maybe so in your mind, however the ethic of reciprocity takes president, which religion has broken from the on set.
    By that I assume you mean the golden rule? That is ambiguous in many cases. How would the ethics of reciprocity apply to a justifiable war, or self-defense?
    Not mine. Mine are natural/normal.
    Why is it natural to assume that evil done in the name of religion is caused by religion but good is not?
    Could you, lol. what "Evils" has religion done that would have happen regardless of it existing.
    Any evil could be and has been done with or without a religious justification. Wars, slavery, you name it. LOL is not a persuasive argument.
    Could you, lol. What has religion done thats "good"
    I already gave an example. Church sponsored charity.
    Lol, I very much doubt that.
    LOL is not a persuasive argument.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion is the main reason man is so divided.
    Excuse me for wading in here without reading the entire exchange, but I just had to comment on this rather silly remark. The division of man is intimately tied to his evolutionary rise as a territorial, tribal animal, naturally suspicious of strangers, but strongly gregarious and social amongst family and friends. Place a primate designed for living in troops of around one hundred individuals in close contact with thousands of strangers and you will immediately evoke the divisive element that works so well as survival strategy for smaller groups.

    It has damn all to do with religion, except that religion can provide a convenient rallying cry for instinctually triggered animosities.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Well thats a given, anybody who is religious would.
    What gave you the idea that I am religious?
    The fact your not an atheist/non-believer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Maybe so in your mind, however the ethic of reciprocity takes president, which religion has broken from the on set.
    By that I assume you mean the golden rule?
    No assumption needed that is another name for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    That is ambiguous in many cases. How would the ethics of reciprocity apply to a justifiable war, or self-defense?
    Completely silly statement that would be the other person breaking it, not you. thus you have no choice but to defend yourself.
    However I would never say the taking of life was justifiable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Not mine. Mine are natural/normal.
    Why is it natural to assume that evil done in the name of religion is caused by religion but good is not?
    Who actually said good was not, What I actually said was "nothing positive has been done in Religion's name that couldn't have been done without it" That still means religion has done some good, but it hasn't got the monopoly on it, tis all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Could you, lol. what "Evils" has religion done that would have happen regardless of it existing.
    Any evil could be and has been done with or without a religious justification. Wars, slavery, you name it.
    Yes wars, slavery, have happen regardless of religion, but the fact still remains, the religion is not innocent, of the same. thus it is evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    LOL is not a persuasive argument.
    it's not meant to be, your statements are just amusing tis all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Could you, lol. What has religion done thats "good"
    I already gave an example. Church sponsored charity.
    So your saying that charity can only be done by religion, lol I see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Lol, I very much doubt that.
    LOL is not a persuasive argument.
    it's not meant to be, your statements are just amusing tis all.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion is the main reason man is so divided.
    Excuse me for wading in here without reading the entire exchange, but I just had to comment on this rather silly remark.---------------------------- except that religion can provide a convenient rallying cry for instinctually triggered animosities.
    Exactly, Note I did not say religion was the only reason now did I, but it is the main reason today that man is so divided, hence why religion causes so much animosity.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt
    The division of man is intimately tied to his evolutionary rise as a territorial, tribal animal, naturally suspicious of strangers, but strongly gregarious and social amongst family and friends. Place a primate designed for living in troops of around one hundred individuals in close contact with thousands of strangers and you will immediately evoke the divisive element that works so well as survival strategy for smaller groups.

    It has damn all to do with religion, except that religion can provide a convenient rallying cry for instinctually triggered animosities.
    Perhaps the division referred is that of the nature of religions to promote the absolute righteousness of their doctrines, in that those who don't accept them are not part of the flock. Islam is quite adamant in that regard, for example, to the point of making it very uncomfortable for us infidels, or even other theists.

    Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    The fact your not an atheist/non-believer.
    You need to distiguish between facts and assumptions.
    Completely silly statement that would be the other person breaking it, not you. thus you have no choice but to defend yourself.
    However I would never say the taking of life was justifiable.
    I don't get what you are saying. If a country attacked another country, would the citizens of the attacked country be justified in defending themselves if it involved the taking of lives? How would the golden rule apply?
    That still means religion has done some good, but it hasn't got the monopoly on it, tis all
    That's different than "wholly evil" though. I declare victory.
    Yes wars, slavery, have happen regardless of religion, but the fact still remains, the religion is not innocent, of the same. thus it is evil.
    You have already admitted that good can be done in the name of religion. Suppose religion were responsible in part for ending slavery (such as activity of Quakers) and suppose some wars were avoided due to religion (could have happened, you can't be sure.) Then wouldn't religion be neutral, not evil?
    So your saying that charity can only be done by religion, lol I see.
    No. That's a straw man argument.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    159
    Harold, don't say another word. Look at your post count.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    Harold can't say another word until next year.. Sorry Harold.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Sophomore
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    159
    Well if he managed 18001 posts this New Year's Eve he could make up for it and people might not notice...
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Just because someone comes searching for "science forum" does not mean that they have much understanding of what science is. We get a lot of enthusiastic muslims that think that the Koran has given them insight into science (LOL). The point is to give people the opportunity, however rarely it might succeed, for people who have enough interest to make that search for "science forum" to learn something about what science is, and perhaps appreciate what it is trying to accomplish to whatever degree they are capable.
    yes i will concede the point on this, if a person truly believes that religion and science are linked, then they will come searching for science to discuss there point. For this purpose the forum is useful, however i think the manner in which people try to "educate" people is flawed and disrespectful, probably just a sympton of the internet.
    Or just the flaws of the people involved. Its not like we have an "educate the visiting religious who haven't a clue" comittee. This is just a place to fascilitate that sort of education if someone steps up to carry that ball. It is certainly something I try to do, for the education of the religiously minded about science and the scientifically minded about religion is certainly something I am very interested in. But I confess that I do have a limited patience and I can be really addicted to my own acidic wit and sarcasm.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    The fact your not an atheist/non-believer.
    You need to distiguish between facts and assumptions.
    Do you believe yourself to be an atheist?
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Completely silly statement that would be the other person breaking it, not you. thus you have no choice but to defend yourself.
    However I would never say the taking of life was justifiable.
    I don't get what you are saying. If a country attacked another country, would the citizens of the attacked country be justified in defending themselves
    Yes, they have the right to protect themselves but I would not call it justified.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    if it involved the taking of lives? How would the golden rule apply?
    The golden rule "don't do to others, that which you would not want done to you" your not breaking rule, they are, you have no choice in the matter, it would be kill or be killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    That still means religion has done some good, but it hasn't got the monopoly on it, tis all
    That's different than "wholly evil" though. I declare victory.
    Oh it's still wholly evil as the good it has done is outweighed by the evil and this good could have as easily been done by another means. Religion is simply not needed, good gets done regardless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes wars, slavery, have happen regardless of religion, but the fact still remains, the religion is not innocent, of the same. thus it is evil.
    You have already admitted that good can be done in the name of religion. Suppose religion were responsible in part for ending slavery
    See previous reply. (religion condoned it in the first place, thats like saying "aren't I good person, I just freed the man I imprisoned")
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    (such as activity of Quakers) and suppose some wars were avoided due to religion (could have happened, you can't be sure.)
    See previous reply
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Then wouldn't religion be neutral, not evil?
    Anything religion tries to do is outweighed by it's evilness, An axe murderer is and will aways be an axe murderer, even if he was a born again. A leopard does not change it's spots.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    So your saying that charity can only be done by religion, lol I see.
    No. That's a straw man argument.
    I'm sorry am I misrepresenting you, You seemed to imply that. So what your saying is all people can do charity, ok then.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    The golden rule "don't do to others, that which you would not want done to you" your not breaking rule, they are, you have no choice in the matter, it would be kill or be killed.
    You would absolutely be breaking the rule, since you are doing something unto them that you would not want done unto yourself.
    Anything religion tries to do is outweighed by it's evilness, An axe murderer is and will aways be an axe murderer, even if he was a born again. A leopard does not change it's spots.
    You talk about religion as if it were a person. It's not a person or even a single idea. It's a collection of ideas, often contradictory. We can discuss its effect on society, but trying to assign blame to it, as though it is a criminal, is silly. Your anger is even sillier.
    (religion condoned it in the first place, thats like saying "aren't I good person, I just freed the man I imprisoned")
    On what basis do you blame religion for slavery? Slavery was very common in ancient Greece and Rome where about 25 percent of the population were slaves. To my knowledge it was not tied to or caused by their pagan religion.

    Uh-oh. That's my 2010 th post. Couldn't wait till next year.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    The golden rule "don't do to others, that which you would not want done to you" your not breaking rule, they are, you have no choice in the matter, it would be kill or be killed.
    You would absolutely be breaking the rule, since you are doing something unto them that you would not want done unto yourself.
    But it would not be your fault, you broke the rule, it is not as if you are breaking it deliberately, you have no choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Anything religion tries to do is outweighed by it's evilness, An axe murderer is and will aways be an axe murderer, even if he was a born again. A leopard does not change it's spots.
    You talk about religion as if it were a person. It's not a person or even a single idea. It's a collection of ideas, often contradictory. We can discuss its effect on society, but trying to assign blame to it, as though it is a criminal, is silly.
    To assign blame would mean your looking for a scapegoat, There is no needed to blame religion it's already evil.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Your anger is even sillier.
    What anger is that. The fact that a thing is an abomination, Doesn't mean I'm angry with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    (religion condoned it in the first place, thats like saying "aren't I good person, I just freed the man I imprisoned")
    On what basis do you blame religion for slavery? Slavery was very common in ancient Greece and Rome where about 25 percent of the population were slaves. To my knowledge it was not tied to or caused by their pagan religion.
    Religion of some kind has been around since man first stood up and was in awe of the sun, once man started to believe himself better than his neighbours (his god was strong and better than their god, he started to take slaves).
    Taking slaves has always been because someone feels superior to another. And what gives them that Idea is religion.

    e]
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    But it would not be your fault, you broke the rule, it is not as if you are breaking it deliberately, you have no choice.
    So what you are saying is that things are a little more complicated than just following the golden rule. Isn't that what I said in the first place?
    Religion of some kind has been around since man first stood up and was in awe of the sun, once man started to believe himself better than his neighbours (his god was strong and better than their god, he started to take slaves).
    Taking slaves has always been because someone feels superior to another. And what gives them that Idea is religion.
    Do you have any evidence of this, or do you just believe it because that's what you believe? Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    Forum Ph.D. verzen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    919
    I can show you how Christianity promotes slavery.. =P Exodus 21: 7
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    I can show you how Christianity promotes slavery.. =P Exodus 21: 7
    Yes, of course, but the question was about ancient Greece and Rome.
    Couldn't the authors of the Old Testament have just been writing about long established customs that preceded the OT?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  55. #54  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    But it would not be your fault, you broke the rule, it is not as if you are breaking it deliberately, you have no choice.
    So what you are saying is that things are a little more complicated than just following the golden rule. Isn't that what I said in the first place?
    No thats not what I'm saying, You can live by the rule, but because your neighbour doesn't isn't your problem. I don't do to other what I don't want done to me, but my neighbour does do to others, then all he can expect is to have it done to him. I'm not breaking my rule, I'm simply following his, as that is what he wished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion of some kind has been around since man first stood up and was in awe of the sun, once man started to believe himself better than his neighbours (his god was strong and better than their god, he started to take slaves).
    Taking slaves has always been because someone feels superior to another. And what gives them that Idea is religion.
    Do you have any evidence of this, or do you just believe it because that's what you believe? Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery.
    Greeks enslaved there own people, Greeks became slaves of other greeks, Greeks kept slaves simply because they could, as did the romans.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_...sult#PPA115,M1

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q...um=2&ct=result
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  56. #55  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Slavery was very common
    Yeah, and moreover that economic relationship was not normally a baroque ordeal involving whips & shackles either. It was little different than serfdom, or indeed getting bonded to a modern employer with family benefits and paid accommodation etc.

    Far worse to be a common sailor or transient laborer for examples.

    So an argument aiming to damn some nation "because they practiced slavery" is kinda impotent, IMHO.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  57. #56  
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    173
    i suggest the forum mod, make clear what this sub-forum is here for, cux many of the people here seem to think it a place were u can insult the minority of religious people who are in this forum, alll you people seem to do i ask stupid question that result in argument and entertainment
    Reply With Quote  
     

  58. #57  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i suggest the forum mod, make clear what this sub-forum is here for, cux many of the people here seem to think it a place were u can insult the minority of religious people who are in this forum, alll you people seem to do i ask stupid question that result in argument and entertainment
    I also think what many do, and insulting ad hominem is probably not the best way, is question peoples religions and their beliefs.

    And so they bloody well should.

    Questioning and debating the validity of an idea through argument and counter-argument is an important tool in stripping away fallacy, with it's hopes and aims simply to attempt to get closer to the truth.

    Ad hominem clouds that process and debases and reverses that procedure where instead of getting closer to the truth you just get further and further away because it get's buried in personal trivia.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  59. #58  
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    173
    then sugegest any person who is religious should answer question , and make you non -religious debate amoung you r self since it ends up insulting their belief
    Reply With Quote  
     

  60. #59  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    then sugegest any person who is religious should answer question , and make you non -religious debate amoung you r self since it ends up insulting their belief
    You may have missed the point of Absum's post.

    This is a forum where debate is the norm. Taking belief personally, and therefore being offended if an idea of yours is questioned, or even attacked, is not part of this forum's norms.

    Even the religious section accepts this: logic and evidence are the way forward in debates, not hurt feelings.

    And there are at least one or two deeply religious people here (they can name themselves) who are happy to follow this. From them, we atheists learn about the nature of belief and the philosophical issues surrounding it.

    Also, for those who come here proselytising, sometimes we learn things (if only about human behaviour and its occasional repetitiveness), and sometimes they learn things from us. What's wrong with that?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  61. #60  
    Forum Sophomore Gods servant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    173
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    then sugegest any person who is religious should answer question , and make you non -religious debate amoung you r self since it ends up insulting their belief
    You may have missed the point of Absum's post.

    This is a forum where debate is the norm. Taking belief personally, and therefore being offended if an idea of yours is questioned, or even attacked, is not part of this forum's norms.

    Even the religious section accepts this: logic and evidence are the way forward in debates, not hurt feelings.

    And there are at least one or two deeply religious people here (they can name themselves) who are happy to follow this. From them, we atheists learn about the nature of belief and the philosophical issues surrounding it.

    Also, for those who come here proselytising, sometimes we learn things (if only about human behaviour and its occasional repetitiveness), and sometimes they learn things from us. What's wrong with that?
    one of the question asked by members of this sub-forum was since God made as in his own image, does that mean god slept with wogod? in christian terms , tell me that ant offensive
    Reply With Quote  
     

  62. #61  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No thats not what I'm saying, You can live by the rule, but because your neighbour doesn't isn't your problem. I don't do to other what I don't want done to me, but my neighbour does do to others, then all he can expect is to have it done to him. I'm not breaking my rule, I'm simply following his, as that is what he wished.
    Of course it is your problem, if your neighbor wants to kill you. Your tit-for-tat response sounds a lot like "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" philosophy right out of the Old Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Greeks enslaved there own people, Greeks became slaves of other greeks, Greeks kept slaves simply because they could, as did the romans.
    I thought you said they kept slaves because of their mythological religion. Now, it's just because they could.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  63. #62  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    if it involved the taking of lives? How would the golden rule apply?
    The golden rule "don't do to others, that which you would not want done to you" your not breaking your golden rule, they are breaking theirs, you have no choice in the matter, it would be kill or be killed.
    You would absolutely be breaking the rule, since you are doing something unto them that you would not want done unto yourself.
    But it would not be your fault you broke the rule. It is not as if you are breaking it deliberately, you have no choice.
    So what you are saying is that things are a little more complicated than just following the golden rule. Isn't that what I said in the first place?
    No thats not what I'm saying, You can live by the rule, but because your neighbour doesn't it isn't your problem. I don't do to other what I don't want done to me, but my neighbour does do to others, then all he can expect is to have it done to him. I'm not breaking my rule, I'm simply following his, as that is what he wished.
    Of course it is your problem, if your neighbor wants to kill you. Your tit-for-tat response sounds a lot like "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" philosophy right out of the Old Testament.
    And where in any of my replies did I say, I would seek revenge, don't try to put words in my mouth, you do seem to have a problem with reading, and comprehension. What you want me to say is please neighbour kill me, how stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Religion of some kind has been around since man first stood up and was in awe of the sun, once man started to believe himself better than his neighbours (his god was strong and better than their god, he started to take slaves).
    Taking slaves has always been because someone feels superior to another. And what gives them that Idea is religion.
    Do you have any evidence of this, or do you just believe it because that's what you believe? Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery.
    Greeks enslaved there own people, Greeks became slaves of other greeks, Greeks kept slaves simply because they could, as did the romans.

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=_...sult#PPA115,M1

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q...um=2&ct=result
    I thought you said they kept slaves because of their mythological religion. Now, it's just because they could.
    I never once said either the greeks or romans kept slave because of their religions. what I said is printed above in blue.
    Also I don't see the word religion in your previous post IE: "Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery." asked and cited.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  64. #63  
    Forum Sophomore susan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    leeds
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i suggest the forum mod, make clear what this sub-forum is here for, cux many of the people here seem to think it a place were u can insult the minority of religious people who are in this forum, alll you people seem to do i ask stupid question that result in argument and entertainment
    Generally, although you probably don't see it quite as clearly as I do (since you're religious on an atheist/science forum), theists around here are treated as they treat others. They give respect, they get it. They lie, mislead, and refuse to provide evidence (and the Bible is evidence only for the Bible and what Christians believe, it can't be quoted as "truth" around here), the same goes, for any holy book and any religion. Break the rules of logic, claim that they're not obliged to use the rules of logic, and threaten people with eternal fire from their god who they refuse to provide evidence for. They will be treated with anything ranging from mild correction to exasperation, to not being taking seriously and possible hostility. You get what you give. If people don't want their beliefs ridiculed then they should not have such stupid beliefs, or at least have their beliefs based in reality.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  65. #64  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    And where in any of my replies did I say, I would seek revenge, don't try to put words in my mouth, you do seem to have a problem with reading, and comprehension. What you want me to say is please neighbour kill me, how stupid.
    I never once said either the greeks or romans kept slave because of their religions. what I said is printed above in blue.
    Also I don't see the word religion in your previous post IE: "Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery." asked and cited.
    Jeez, pavlos. You are stubborn. Can't you concede any point, no matter how obvious?
    1. The golden rule is not a sufficient moral guide for every situation. It cannot be applied to self-defense. For this, you needed to apply some other criteria.
    2. What we refer to as Greek and Roman mythology was, in fact, the religion of the time.

    Are you now admitting that there could be another cause, besides religion, to explain the practice of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome? If so, we are making progress. The next question would be, could this other cause explain, in any part, the practice of slavery in other societies.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  66. #65  
    Forum Sophomore susan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    leeds
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Jeez, pavlos. You are stubborn. Can't you concede any point, no matter how obvious?
    1. The golden rule is not a sufficient moral guide for every situation.
    Excuse me for interrupting here. But What! It is the only moral guidance we should have or need.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    It cannot be applied to self-defence.
    Oh come on, self defence is simply survival, you have no choice, you still maintain your ethics of reciprocity, as your ethics haven't changed.
    Christian version "do unto others, as they do unto you." Which allows for self defence.
    However the correct rational/realist version "don’t do to others, that which you don’t want done to you." holds that you yourself can be ethically correct, but in the case of self defence the other guy is ethically challenged not you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    For this, you needed to apply some other criteria.
    Why!
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    2. What we refer to as Greek and Roman mythology was, in fact, the religion of the time.

    Are you now admitting that there could be another cause, besides religion, to explain the practice of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome?
    One-upmanship, brought on, from religion and what was common practice at the time, Egyptians took slaves of Persians, Persians took slaves of Greeks, and Greeks reciprocated
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    If so, we are making progress. The next question would be, could this other cause explain, in any part, the practice of slavery in other societies.
    It would still ultimately work it's way back to religion.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  67. #66  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Christian version "do unto others, as they do unto you." Which allows for self defence.
    You got that quote a little bit wrong.
    Matthew 7:12
    "12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
    Now, unless you want someone to kill you, you could not follow that in a self defense situation.
    It would still ultimately work it's way back to religion.
    What would work its way back into religion?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  68. #67  
    Forum Professor sunshinewarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    Quote Originally Posted by sunshinewarrior
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    then sugegest any person who is religious should answer question , and make you non -religious debate amoung you r self since it ends up insulting their belief
    You may have missed the point of Absum's post.

    This is a forum where debate is the norm. Taking belief personally, and therefore being offended if an idea of yours is questioned, or even attacked, is not part of this forum's norms.

    Even the religious section accepts this: logic and evidence are the way forward in debates, not hurt feelings.

    And there are at least one or two deeply religious people here (they can name themselves) who are happy to follow this. From them, we atheists learn about the nature of belief and the philosophical issues surrounding it.

    Also, for those who come here proselytising, sometimes we learn things (if only about human behaviour and its occasional repetitiveness), and sometimes they learn things from us. What's wrong with that?
    one of the question asked by members of this sub-forum was since God made as in his own image, does that mean god slept with wogod? in christian terms , tell me that ant offensive
    But the point of this forum is that it is not restricted to Christian terms - nobody gets any favours: we offend everybody equally, with no discrimination about it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  69. #68  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i suggest the forum mod, make clear what this sub-forum is here for, cux many of the people here seem to think it a place were u can insult the minority of religious people who are in this forum, alll you people seem to do i ask stupid question that result in argument and entertainment
    Generally, although you probably don't see it quite as clearly as I do (since you're religious on an atheist/science forum), theists around here are treated as they treat others. They give respect, they get it. They lie, mislead, and refuse to provide evidence (and the Bible is evidence only for the Bible and what Christians believe, it can't be quoted as "truth" around here), the same goes, for any holy book and any religion. Break the rules of logic, claim that they're not obliged to use the rules of logic, and threaten people with eternal fire from their god who they refuse to provide evidence for. They will be treated with anything ranging from mild correction to exasperation, to not being taking seriously and possible hostility. You get what you give. If people don't want their beliefs ridiculed then they should not have such stupid beliefs, or at least have their beliefs based in reality.
    What a ridiculous and obnoxious argument and point of view.

    It's your personal opinion that religious belief is 'stupid belief'

    And you base your argument on knowledge of reality?

    Rational knowledge and it's ideas about reality are only half of the jigsaw. The thinking mind is only one half of the brain.

    You appear to have little understanding of human nature and it's hidden aspects, such as the unconscious or subconscious, which contributes just as much to our picture of reality as the thinking side of our brains.

    Just it seems that you are not conscious of this aspect to 'reality' therefore you are in no position to ridicule or criticize anothers position on their belief structure.

    There are too many people who condemn religion and belief simply on it's terminology and it's associations with religious organizations. As soon as 'religion' or 'God' is mentioned you immediately pull the draw-bridge up and place vicious sentry on all out posts!

    Not many people on this forum seem capable to strip away this bias and prejudice in yourselves to take a closer and deeper honest look as to what 'religion' or the idea of 'spirituality' actually is and ask 'What is the original impetus which has created the phenomena of religion?'
    This question is essential considering how much religious ideas influence our way of life and our environment. It's crucial if you want to get to the bottom of what religion is all about.

    It is simply not good enough to turn your back and condemn this idea just because religious organizations have abused or misused this idea in the past.
    They abused it partly because they were ignorant about it's true nature, just as people today perpetuate the ignorance by condemning a subject they seem to know very little about, except to spout a few excerpts from a scripture or Bible.
    Scripture and Bibles have absolutely nothing to do with the true nature of religion.

    You simply carry on the same old perpetual argument of 'it's crap and rubbish, because i (or Richard Dawkins) say it's a load of baloney!

    There is such a thing as 'blinded by science' as there is 'blinded by religion'.
    If any of you consider yourselves 'scientific' then surely you know the formula to scientific inquiry and in the first instance remove prior bias, prejudice, judgement or expectation to the inquiry in order not to taint or distort any knowledge or understanding we might receive.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  70. #69  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    And where in any of my replies did I say, I would seek revenge, don't try to put words in my mouth, you do seem to have a problem with reading, and comprehension. What you want me to say is please neighbour kill me, how stupid.
    I never once said either the greeks or romans kept slave because of their religions. what I said is printed above in blue.
    Also I don't see the word religion in your previous post IE: "Please cite any reference to show that Greek and Roman mythology promoted the practice of slavery." asked and cited.
    Jeez, pavlos. You are stubborn. Can't you concede any point, no matter how obvious?
    1. The golden rule is not a sufficient moral guide for every situation. It cannot be applied to self-defense. For this, you needed to apply some other criteria.
    Why!, your not breaking it, you've no choice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    2. What we refer to as Greek and Roman mythology was, in fact, the religion of the time.
    Wrong, religion can be part of the mythology but not all of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Are you now admitting that there could be another cause, besides religion, to explain the practice of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome
    No, it all stems from religion.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  71. #70  
    Forum Sophomore susan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    leeds
    Posts
    121
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Christian version "do unto others, as they do unto you." Which allows for self defence.
    You got that quote a little bit wrong.
    Matthew 7:12
    "12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."
    Straw man and irrelevant.
    How is it different it's just what I posted, with a subtle change IE: "As they do unto you, do unto others"
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Now, unless you want someone to kill you, you could not follow that in a self defence situation.
    Ah but you can it's the same thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    It would still ultimately work it's way back to religion.
    What would work its way back into religion?
    The cause of slavery, would ultimately work it's way back "to" religion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by susan
    Quote Originally Posted by Gods servant
    i suggest the forum mod, make clear what this sub-forum is here for, cux many of the people here seem to think it a place were u can insult the minority of religious people who are in this forum, alll you people seem to do i ask stupid question that result in argument and entertainment
    Generally, although you probably don't see it quite as clearly as I do (since you're religious on an atheist/science forum), theists around here are treated as they treat others. They give respect, they get it. They lie, mislead, and refuse to provide evidence (and the Bible is evidence only for the Bible and what Christians believe, it can't be quoted as "truth" around here), the same goes, for any holy book and any religion. Break the rules of logic, claim that they're not obliged to use the rules of logic, and threaten people with eternal fire from their god who they refuse to provide evidence for. They will be treated with anything ranging from mild correction to exasperation, to not being taking seriously and possible hostility. You get what you give. If people don't want their beliefs ridiculed then they should not have such stupid beliefs, or at least have their beliefs based in reality.
    What a ridiculous and obnoxious argument and point of view.

    It's your personal opinion that religious belief is 'stupid belief'
    Yes and not just religion, any baseless irrational belief is absurd, this includes fairies/elves, ghost /ghouls, devils/demons, Santa/the Easter bunny, dragons/unicorns etc...Etc....
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    And you base your argument on knowledge of reality?
    Well duh! That’s because nothing supernatural resides in reality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Rational knowledge and its ideas about reality are only half of the jigsaw. The thinking mind is only one half of the brain.
    Is it lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    You appear to have little understanding of human nature and it's hidden aspects, such as the unconscious or subconscious, which contributes just as much to our picture of reality as the thinking side of our brains.
    Oh yes I understand our imagination, our dream state etc... But it must remain there, However our subconscious/unconscious mind would have nothing to imagine, if it wasn't for the reality we live in. We in no way should allow our imaginations to be our guide to living, they haves no place in the objective world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Just it seems that you are not conscious of this aspect to 'reality' therefore you are in no position to ridicule or criticize anothers position on their belief structure.
    How so! you would ridicule someone if they said they had an elf making them a new pair of shoes. If people don't want their beliefs ridiculed then they should not have such stupid beliefs,
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    There are too many people who condemn religion and belief simply on its terminology and it's associations with religious organizations. As soon as 'religion' or 'God' is mentioned you immediately pull the draw-bridge up and place vicious sentry on all out posts!

    Not many people on this forum seem capable to strip away this bias and prejudice in yourselves to take a closer and deeper honest look as to what 'religion' or the idea of 'spirituality' actually is and ask 'What is the original impetus which has created the phenomena of religion?'
    That would be delusion/hallucination/dreaming/imagining etc...
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    This question is essential considering how much religious ideas influence our way of life and our environment. It's crucial if you want to get to the bottom of what religion is all about.
    That is the problem, too many irrational people controlling others by pushing their imaginary gods into there lives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    It is simply not good enough to turn your back and condemn this idea just because religious organizations have abused or misused this idea in the past.
    There are a lot of people in insane asylums, who believe they talk to invisible things. But they are not allowed to push those beliefs on society. why is that, there imaginary being have as much credence as religions gods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    They abused it partly because they were ignorant about its true nature, just as people today perpetuate the ignorance by condemning a subject they seem to know very little about, except to spout a few excerpts from a scripture or Bible.
    Scripture and Bibles have absolutely nothing to do with the true nature of religion.

    You simply carry on the same old perpetual argument of 'it's crap and rubbish, because i (or Richard Dawkins) say it's a load of baloney!
    What’s Richard Dawkins got to do with it. Straw man.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    There is such a thing as 'blinded by science' as there is 'blinded by religion'.
    Shouldn't that be fact or blind faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    If any of you consider yourselves 'scientific' then surely you know the formula to scientific inquiry and in the first instance remove prior bias, prejudice, judgement or expectation to the inquiry in order not to taint or distort any knowledge or understanding we might receive.
    Then I suggest you start using some in your everyday life. As at the moment you seem to be living in cloud cuckooland.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  72. #71  
    sox
    sox is offline
    Forum Masters Degree sox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Uk - Scotland
    Posts
    598
    Susan, you are incorrect about that bible passage and Harold is correct.

    It is saying: Do for others what you want them to do for you.

    In other words, be nice to people if you want them to be nice to you.

    It most certaintly does not say treat people the way they treat you.

    __________________________________________________ _____________
    "Happy is the man who can recognise in the work of To-day a connected portion of the work of life, and an embodiment of the work of Eternity. The foundations of his confidence are unchangeable, for he has been made a partaker of Infinity." - James Clerk Maxwell
    Reply With Quote  
     

  73. #72  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Ah it appears Susan that you know much more about the ridiculous than the not so ridiculous, then how come you are being so ridiculous about the ridiculous?

    It is a great pity you neglect so much of which is freely available to you.

    And it always strikes me how people with a particular outlook on life always seem to have a bitter edge. They remind me of people who deny themselves certain things and then are venomous towards others who choose differently.

    It's a bit like 'If I can't be happy, none of you fuckers are gonna be either'!


    Susan have you ever met Q

    I think you and him would get on extremely well.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  74. #73  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Are you now admitting that there could be another cause, besides religion, to explain the practice of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome
    No, it all stems from religion.
    I think Pavlos your concept of slavery may be overly intellectual. Slavery grows from real economic conditions, not the psyche. Later we may justify our position, and still later we may justify slavery in general.

    The slaves we keep today just happen to be mostly Christian. That simply reflects their demographic origins. Do you really think the slave traders do it for religious reasons?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  75. #74  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    They remind me of people who deny themselves certain things and then are venomous towards others who choose differently.

    It's a bit like 'If I can't be happy, none of you fuckers are gonna be either'!
    Oh yes, the "I am special" clause. A thinly veiled and weak argument, Absum.

    In actuality, we are denying ourselves your brand of blissful delirium.

    I suppose Susan and I could get together and drop some acid.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  76. #75  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    They remind me of people who deny themselves certain things and then are venomous towards others who choose differently.

    It's a bit like 'If I can't be happy, none of you fuckers are gonna be either'!
    Oh yes, the "I am special" clause. A thinly veiled and weak argument, Absum.

    In actuality, we are denying ourselves your brand of blissful delirium.

    I suppose Susan and I could get together and drop some acid.
    Wow Q, you actually found some kind of argument (no matter how thinly vieled it was) in that continuous spew of insults and venom. That is more than I managed to find.

    Absum what can say? But for the one exception that Q could, I find that the subject of all your sentences is Q and Susan, expressing your contempt of them. I mean really now. If you cannot think of anything to say on the topic of the thread in response to Q and Susan, it is really ok not to say anything at all. Simply ignoring people and saying nothing at all should be your ultimate expression of contempt. Just don't waste your time with them. What you are doing makes me wonder if you are plant trying to make the religious look bad and those like Q and Susan look good -- because frankly that is what you are doing.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  77. #76 Re: The hypocrisy of the religion sub-forum 
    Forum Professor Obviously's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,415
    Quote Originally Posted by organic god
    I suppose i need to qualify that statement rather than just laying it out there.

    It is my personal belief that religion has no place in science, and also that science has no place in religion, by this i mean that a scientific method to disprove a so called god is counter intuitive.
    so my thing is that the sub-forum shouldn't even be here, i am sure others have made this point before me.

    But what really interests me is the amount of religous people on this forum, the main type of thread here is people trying to disprove god using science, so the religous person should just not bother with them because they have faith, and should be self assured that they will go to heaven for believing, or whatever there belief system states.
    But an extraordinary number of people reply, and defend the belief they have strongly, perhaps this is understandable but from my point of view this is not the behaviour of someone with true faith.

    Perhaps it is understandable as they are trying to convert people to the religion.
    However the responses from the religous members of the forum are often nothing more than disrespectful personal attacks, that aim to humiliate and devalue another person's point of view.
    Not only is this a highly inefficent conversion method. but to me it does not seem to follow any religous teachings.
    So my final point is this. religous forum members this is not the place for you. but if for some reason. you must be here (unsure of your beliefs, want to insult people behind the cover of a computer. etc.) then please discuss the issue at hand not another person's character.

    thanks
    I can agree that religion doesn't necessarily belong here -- on a science forum -- yet at the same time religion is a part of history. This is why I think religion belongs here, but mostly in the 'History' sub-forum.

    However, considering the vast amounts of posts on religion it seems more or less reasonable to let a sub-forum called "Religion" exist.

    If so I would hope the moderating of this forum would include removing topics without any other point than "advertising" for a religion (I'm sure I don't have to elaborate) as these are pointless in both form and content.

    We can, however, still be scientific about religion in both a political and historical perspective.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  78. #77  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Are you now admitting that there could be another cause, besides religion, to explain the practice of slavery in ancient Greece and Rome
    No, it all stems from religion.
    I think Pavlos your concept of slavery may be overly intellectual. Slavery grows from real economic conditions, not the psyche. Later we may justify our position, and still later we may justify slavery in general.

    The slaves we keep today just happen to be mostly Christian. That simply reflects their demographic origins. Do you really think the slave traders do it for religious reasons?
    No not now, but what I'm saying is when man first looked up in awe of the sun/moon and thought of them as all powerful gods, he (excuse the pun) became a slave to religion, thus he felt he was wiser and better than the next guy, and if he could oppress him he would by slavery or death. thus slavery was born from religion.
    Ancient man being a social animal lived in harmony with his fellow man until this irrational religious idea took hold like a virus, since then man has been at logger heads with his fellow man. albeit feeling cosy whilst he kills or enslaves. Such is the nature of the this mind virus.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  79. #78  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No not now, but what I'm saying is when man first looked up in awe of the sun/moon and thought of them as all powerful gods, he (excuse the pun) became a slave to religion, thus he felt he was wiser and better than the next guy, and if he could oppress him he would by slavery or death. thus slavery was born from religion.
    Ancient man being a social animal lived in harmony with his fellow man until this irrational religious idea took hold like a virus, since then man has been at logger heads with his fellow man. albeit feeling cosy whilst he kills or enslaves. Such is the nature of the this mind virus.
    Now you are just making stuff up.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  80. #79  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No not now, but what I'm saying is when man first looked up in awe of the sun/moon and thought of them as all powerful gods, he (excuse the pun) became a slave to religion, thus he felt he was wiser and better than the next guy, and if he could oppress him he would by slavery or death. thus slavery was born from religion.
    Ancient man being a social animal lived in harmony with his fellow man until this irrational religious idea took hold like a virus, since then man has been at logger heads with his fellow man. albeit feeling cosy whilst he kills or enslaves. Such is the nature of the this mind virus.
    Now you are just making stuff up.
    Then what do you think happened, when man first became the creature he is today. Do you think that he wasn't in awe of his surrounding, did he not have gods of the sun and moon, and thunder, volcanoes, the sea, animals, in fact everything at one time may have been a god to someone including a god of vomit. http://www.godchecker.com/
    It's not much of a stretch to think, by giving these things a superior status, he would thing himself superior for having knowledge of them. thus making him more powerful than his stupid neighbour who doesn't. thus he would feel he has the right ( just like the religious do today) to preach, oppress, enslave or kill in the name of his god.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  81. #80  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    They remind me of people who deny themselves certain things and then are venomous towards others who choose differently.

    It's a bit like 'If I can't be happy, none of you fuckers are gonna be either'!
    Oh yes, the "I am special" clause. A thinly veiled and weak argument, Absum.

    In actuality, we are denying ourselves your brand of blissful delirium.

    I suppose Susan and I could get together and drop some acid.
    Wow Q, you actually found some kind of argument (no matter how thinly vieled it was) in that continuous spew of insults and venom. That is more than I managed to find.

    Absum what can say? But for the one exception that Q could, I find that the subject of all your sentences is Q and Susan, expressing your contempt of them. I mean really now. If you cannot think of anything to say on the topic of the thread in response to Q and Susan, it is really ok not to say anything at all. Simply ignoring people and saying nothing at all should be your ultimate expression of contempt. Just don't waste your time with them. What you are doing makes me wonder if you are plant trying to make the religious look bad and those like Q and Susan look good -- because frankly that is what you are doing.
    My reference was to people who are incapable or unwilling to think out of the box or further than one side of their brains.

    Susan and Q simply demonstrate its acrid symptoms very well.

    It is they who become venomous when presented with any idea which doesn't fit into their box due to their irrational prejudice which prevents them from properly analyzing any given idea.

    That is their problem, not mine.

    Q - perhaps you should drop some acid. It might wake up and activate certain portions of your mind which appear to have gone to sleep from lack of use.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  82. #81  
    Forum Professor Obviously's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,415
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No not now, but what I'm saying is when man first looked up in awe of the sun/moon and thought of them as all powerful gods, he (excuse the pun) became a slave to religion, thus he felt he was wiser and better than the next guy, and if he could oppress him he would by slavery or death. thus slavery was born from religion.
    Ancient man being a social animal lived in harmony with his fellow man until this irrational religious idea took hold like a virus, since then man has been at logger heads with his fellow man. albeit feeling cosy whilst he kills or enslaves. Such is the nature of the this mind virus.
    Ants use slaves as well, don't they? I don't see them being religious.

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent5.../SlaveAnt.html
    Reply With Quote  
     

  83. #82  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Then what do you think happened, when man first became the creature he is today. Do you think that he wasn't in awe of his surrounding, did he not have gods of the sun and moon, and thunder, volcanoes, the sea, animals, in fact everything at one time may have been a god to someone including a god of vomit. http://www.godchecker.com/
    It's not much of a stretch to think, by giving these things a superior status, he would thing himself superior for having knowledge of them. thus making him more powerful than his stupid neighbour who doesn't. thus he would feel he has the right ( just like the religious do today) to preach, oppress, enslave or kill in the name of his god.
    I think you are in awe of your surroundings and you are making up your own myths.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  84. #83  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Then what do you think happened, when man first became the creature he is today. Do you think that he wasn't in awe of his surrounding, did he not have gods of the sun and moon, and thunder, volcanoes, the sea, animals, in fact everything at one time may have been a god to someone including a god of vomit. http://www.godchecker.com/
    It's not much of a stretch to think, by giving these things a superior status, he would thing himself superior for having knowledge of them. thus making him more powerful than his stupid neighbour who doesn't. thus he would feel he has the right ( just like the religious do today) to preach, oppress, enslave or kill in the name of his god.
    I think you are in awe of your surroundings and you are making up your own myths.
    Excellent!

    You should be in awe of your surroundings and be creative and make up your own myths! But of course not at the cost of losing connection and use of that other important element of our being which applies reason and logic.

    If you can manage to get those two qualities operating and working together you are much closer to discovering the truth about our reality than anyone who chooses either sphere above the other!
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  85. #84  
    Forum Masters Degree samcdkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    640
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)

    I suppose Susan and I could get together and drop some acid.
    That explains everything!
    Homeland Security Advisory System: RED
    Reply With Quote  
     

  86. #85  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!

    My reference was to people who are incapable or unwilling to think out of the box or further than one side of their brains.

    Susan and Q simply demonstrate its acrid symptoms very well.

    It is they who become venomous when presented with any idea which doesn't fit into their box due to their irrational prejudice which prevents them from properly analyzing any given idea.

    That is their problem, not mine.
    You've done well at presenting your ideas of the invisible and undetectable. Kudos. An analysis of that complete lack of a phenomena have been offered.

    No problem, whatsoever.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  87. #86  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    No not now, but what I'm saying is when man first looked up in awe of the sun/moon and thought of them as all powerful gods, he (excuse the pun) became a slave to religion, thus he felt he was wiser and better than the next guy, and if he could oppress him he would by slavery or death. thus slavery was born from religion.
    Ancient man being a social animal lived in harmony with his fellow man until this irrational religious idea took hold like a virus, since then man has been at logger heads with his fellow man. albeit feeling cosy whilst he kills or enslaves. Such is the nature of the this mind virus.
    Ants use slaves as well, don't they? I don't see them being religious.

    http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent5.../SlaveAnt.html
    Yes certain ants are superior to other ants. However I didn't say there isn't other reasons this superior aspect evolved, but from mans perspective, superiority and slavery would stem from religion.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  88. #87  
    Forum Professor Obviously's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    1,415
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes certain ants are superior to other ants. However I didn't say there isn't other reasons this superior aspect evolved, but from mans perspective, superiority and slavery would stem from religion.
    Not necessarily:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Slavery in ancient cultures was known to occur in civilizations as old as Sumer, and it was found in every civilization, including Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia,[2] Rome and parts of its empire. Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[3] In the Roman Empire, probably over 25% of the population was enslaved.[4] Scholars believe that 30 to 40% of the total population of Italy was enslaved.[5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
    The history of slavery shows several reasons for it.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  89. #88  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Then what do you think happened, when man first became the creature he is today. Do you think that he wasn't in awe of his surrounding, did he not have gods of the sun and moon, and thunder, volcanoes, the sea, animals, in fact everything at one time may have been a god to someone including a god of vomit. http://www.godchecker.com/
    It's not much of a stretch to think, by giving these things a superior status, he would thing himself superior for having knowledge of them. thus making him more powerful than his stupid neighbour who doesn't. thus he would feel he has the right ( just like the religious do today) to preach, oppress, enslave or kill in the name of his/her god.
    I think you are in awe of your surroundings and you are making up your own myths.
    Then I'm in good company, with all the religious, and spiritualist, and yourself. Mythmakers all of us. It's nice that you realize thats what these people are.

    But could you answer my question.
    "What do you think happened?"
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  90. #89  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes certain ants are superior to other ants. However I didn't say there isn't other reasons this superior aspect evolved, but from mans perspective, superiority and slavery would stem from religion.
    Not necessarily:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Slavery in ancient cultures was known to occur in civilizations as old as Sumer, and it was found in every civilization, including Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia,[2] Rome and parts of its empire. Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[3] In the Roman Empire, probably over 25% of the population was enslaved.[4] Scholars believe that 30 to 40% of the total population of Italy was enslaved.[5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
    The history of slavery shows several reasons for it.
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  91. #90  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes certain ants are superior to other ants. However I didn't say there isn't other reasons this superior aspect evolved, but from mans perspective, superiority and slavery would stem from religion.
    Not necessarily:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Slavery in ancient cultures was known to occur in civilizations as old as Sumer, and it was found in every civilization, including Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece, Ancient Persia,[2] Rome and parts of its empire. Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[3] In the Roman Empire, probably over 25% of the population was enslaved.[4] Scholars believe that 30 to 40% of the total population of Italy was enslaved.[5]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
    The history of slavery shows several reasons for it.
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    And now man looks down at the ground, shunning that awe as myth, superstition and the ridiculous and imagination as obscene, preferring instead to worship number, letter and law and grips the walls of his laboratory for fear of losing touch on reality, where imagination, numinous, soul and spirit walk no more.
    Modern man declares with rapturous applause the advances he has made but is ignorant that through his victory and on his quest he left half of himself behind in a man-made grave.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  92. #91  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    But could you answer my question.
    "What do you think happened?"
    We are now in the realm of pop psychology or pop sociology. However, I will offer another hypothesis. People originally used religion to explain natural phenomena like earthquakes or lightning. Eventually they also used it as an explanation of why they followed certain customs. So, a slaver may be practicing slavery because he learned it from his parents, and it was economically advantageous to his tribe. But if asked to explain it, he might cite a religious reason.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  93. #92  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    And now man looks down at the ground, shunning that awe as myth, superstition and the ridiculous and imagination as obscene, preferring instead to worship number, letter and law and grips the walls of his laboratory for fear of losing touch on reality, where imagination, numinous, soul and spirit walk no more.
    Modern man declares with rapturous applause the advances he has made but is ignorant that through his victory and on his quest he left half of himself behind in a man-made grave.
    Paul of Tarsus to the school at Corinth

    "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"

    "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men"

    Time to tidy the toy box, and put it in the attic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    But could you answer my question.
    "What do you think happened?"
    We are now in the realm of pop psychology or pop sociology. However, I will offer another hypothesis. People originally used religion to explain natural phenomena like earthquakes or lightning. Eventually they also used it as an explanation of why they followed certain customs. So, a slaver may be practicing slavery because he learned it from his parents, and it was economically advantageous to his tribe. But if asked to explain it, he might cite a religious reason.
    Thats because of it's origins in the said religion.
    Animals have a fear of thunder and lightning, especially our nearest neighbour the chimp, when mans emergence happened, the things he would have feared would have been thought to be more powerful, thus he would have first believed those things were gods/superior, as they could kill his brethren. The use of slavery came much much later in his development. Out of his fear came strength and superiority once he believed he understood the gods wishes, thus it was only a matter of time that the use of slaves came about.

    From religion slavery was born.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  94. #93  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Thats because of it's origins in the said religion.
    Animals have a fear of thunder and lightning, especially our nearest neighbour the chimp, when mans emergence happened, the things he would have feared would have been thought to be more powerful, thus he would have first believed those things were gods/superior, as they could kill his brethren. The use of slavery came much much later in his development. Out of his fear came strength and superiority once he believed he understood the gods wishes, thus it was only a matter of time that the use of slaves came about.

    From religion slavery was born.
    You state that as if you know how it happened, yet you offer no evidence. How do you know it didn't happen as I suggested, i.e., first came the slavery then the religious explanation? You know what a true atheist would say about someone who believes something without evidence.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  95. #94  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    Yeah I know what you're doing. You're deducing turning points, as though these elements were always stark and not evolved gradually, perhaps through other elements lost to time. It's like asking "when did humans begin to screw missionary style?" (presuming even today we all do, all the time) and then painting a dramatic scene for that fateful moment (cue the 2001: A Space Odyssey soundtrack).

    Generally as people grow conscious of a situation, they adapt their beliefs to suit.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  96. #95  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Generally as people grow conscious of a situation, they adapt their beliefs to suit.
    Exactly.
    When mans emergence happened, the things he would have feared would have been thought to be more powerful. Yes this was a gradually process. Thus he would have first believed those things were to be feared, then thought them superior and finally as gods, as they could kill his brethren.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  97. #96  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    And now man looks down at the ground, shunning that awe as myth, superstition and the ridiculous and imagination as obscene, preferring instead to worship number, letter and law and grips the walls of his laboratory for fear of losing touch on reality, where imagination, numinous, soul and spirit walk no more.
    Modern man declares with rapturous applause the advances he has made but is ignorant that through his victory and on his quest he left half of himself behind in a man-made grave.
    Paul of Tarsus to the school at Corinth

    "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"

    "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men"

    Time to tidy the toy box, and put it in the attic.
    Very funny I am sure. But Paul of Tarsus would never have considered a belief in God to be a childish thing. And you have foolishly included in your ignorant use of such a broad brush the imagination. One could conclude that your delerious idea of what constitutes adulthood is actually something that really belongs in a mental institution or at least as an outpatient getting some serious psychological help.

    I guess we can find a use for such fragmentary people unable to distinguish themselves from machines, but I can tell you that I at least have hopes that my children can do a lot better than that. We can put up with the stuffed shirts who have no use for imagination and even appreciate their contributions to society UNTIL they insist that the rest of us lobotomize ourselves as they have done.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  98. #97  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Generally as people grow conscious of a situation, they adapt their beliefs to suit.
    Exactly.
    When mans emergence happened, the things he would have feared would have been thought to be more powerful. Yes this was a gradually process. Thus he would have first believed those things were to be feared, then thought them superior and finally as gods, as they could kill his brethren.
    I think I follow.

    Our chronology regarding nature, though, has been of increased understanding. Chimpanzees understand that as a group they can dominate and even stone to death any big cat they encounter. There is a nice account in Robinson Crusoe of Friday gaily mastering a bear and killing it, essentially by wit and chutzpa not technology. I think that surliness was the key to our survival, early on, especially acting in groups. Basically the nerve to stand up to a lion and shout. We taught the predators to stay clear of us... and they still do. If we'd have been too afraid, acted afraid, we'd have been lunch. Gradually we acquired insights about these animals, so we could dominate them better and better. Of course fear does not come from knowledge.

    I think that later as we settled into agriculture, and wild animals became a rare encounter, then we feared them.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

  99. #98  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    And now man looks down at the ground, shunning that awe as myth, superstition and the ridiculous and imagination as obscene, preferring instead to worship number, letter and law and grips the walls of his laboratory for fear of losing touch on reality, where imagination, numinous, soul and spirit walk no more.
    Modern man declares with rapturous applause the advances he has made but is ignorant that through his victory and on his quest he left half of himself behind in a man-made grave.
    Paul of Tarsus to the school at Corinth

    "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"

    "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men"

    Time to tidy the toy box, and put it in the attic.
    Dear me Pavlos

    That outlook saddens me greatly.

    It seems to be symptomatic of a young mind desperate for that obscure reality of becoming and 'adult' that the only way forward is to put away the imagination, creativity and sense of fun and play into a dark and dusty attic to be forever forgotten.

    There is no malicious or spite in me when I say that I seriously hope you don't become too old before you realise what a terrible mistake that has been and you have forgotten how to play and one day you will retrieve the toybox and open your mind to the imagination and it's creativity again.

    If in years to come you ever experience a sense of despondency or feel at a loss as to where the fun and inspiration has gone and life appears to have become an unimaginative dry and arid desert, please don't forget where you put the toybox, and neither be afraid to open it again and enjoy what it has to offer.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


    (.·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.¸☼¸.¤...-♥»゜・*.:。✿*゚‘゚・✿.。.:* *.:。·.¸❀¸.·´¯`·.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  100. #99  
    Forum Masters Degree pavlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    liverpool
    Posts
    715
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Yes necessarily, as I'm going back before history to the dawn of man, when the seed was sown. When man first looked up in awe at the gods he had just created.
    And now man looks down at the ground, shunning that awe as myth, superstition and the ridiculous and imagination as obscene, preferring instead to worship number, letter and law and grips the walls of his laboratory for fear of losing touch on reality, where imagination, numinous, soul and spirit walk no more.
    Modern man declares with rapturous applause the advances he has made but is ignorant that through his victory and on his quest he left half of himself behind in a man-made grave.
    Paul of Tarsus to the school at Corinth

    "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"

    "Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men"

    Time to tidy the toy box, and put it in the attic.
    Very funny I am sure.
    But Paul of Tarsus would never have considered a belief in God to be a childish thing. And you have foolishly included in your ignorant use of such a broad brush the imagination. One could conclude that your delirious idea of what constitutes adulthood is actually something that really belongs in a mental institution or at least as an outpatient getting some serious psychological help.

    I guess we can find a use for such fragmentary people unable to distinguish themselves from machines, but I can tell you that I at least have hopes that my children can do a lot better than that. We can put up with the stuffed shirts who have no use for imagination and even appreciate their contributions to society UNTIL they insist that the rest of us lobotomize ourselves as they have done.
    That was posted as a way of being facetious, which I see you noticed by your opening line.
    It was the arrogance that got me, to assume just because I don't buy into her fantasy that I some how lack feelings or an imagination. I earn my living as an Artist.

    In regard to Paul of Tarsus, Paul in these passages is not talking about toys and games, he is talking about anger, jealousy, cruelty, spite, judgment and all those silly childish emotions, that hurt other and ourselves for no rhyme or reason, but much loss.
    As you well know with absum, she can be extremely childish and rude.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  101. #100  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,650
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    You state that as if you know how it happened, yet you offer no evidence. How do you know it didn't happen as I suggested, i.e., first came the slavery then the religious explanation? You know what a true atheist would say about someone who believes something without evidence.
    Shamanism, which is thought to be the origins of religions, dates back to when Neanderthals roamed the earth. Does slavery predate this time period? Frankly, I don't know. Indentured servitude appears to even predate slavery.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •