Thread: Going to church on christmas eve

So... I usually go to my mothers house for christmas.. Yet now she says in order for me to come over, I need to attend christmas eve mass with her. Isn't this a form of blackmail and isnt it unethical to even consider forcing your belief on others? Christmas is NOT a christian holiday. It's a pagan holiday (originating from the Winter Solstace) Yet, she doesn't believe it's unethical to force someone to endure brainwashing garbage..

Can anyone think of a way out of this mess? I just want to spend time with my family...

ask yourself the question : is it worth a family row just so you can remain on the ethical high ground ?

Originally Posted by verzen

So... I usually go to my mothers house for christmas.. Yet now she says in order for me to come over, I need to attend christmas eve mass with her. Isn't this a form of blackmail and isnt it unethical to even consider forcing your belief on others? Christmas is NOT a christian holiday. It's a pagan holiday (originating from the Winter Solstace) Yet, she doesn't believe it's unethical to force someone to endure brainwashing garbage..

Can anyone think of a way out of this mess? I just want to spend time with my family...

Well jeez I wouldn't do any such thing, but I am not your mother. So do you want to come over to my house for Christmas or do you want spend time with your mother? I am just saying you can't pick and choose the parts you like and don't like about people. It is usually just a take it or leave it proposition.

Hey Verzen, I'm not sure your mother is trying to force her beliefs on you.

It's Christmas and regardless of it being a festival or ancient ritual your mother obviously enjoys the occassion and regards it as a special time. And to her, who better than her son to share that time with ?

She may not ask you again next year after you start levitating into the air surrounded by thunderbolts of lightening with your head spinning round and throwing up all over the congregation

Go on son :wink:

BARCUD

Originally Posted by verzen

So... I usually go to my mothers house for christmas.. Yet now she says in order for me to come over, I need to attend christmas eve mass with her. Isn't this a form of blackmail and isnt it unethical to even consider forcing your belief on others? Christmas is NOT a christian holiday. It's a pagan holiday (originating from the Winter Solstace) Yet, she doesn't believe it's unethical to force someone to endure brainwashing garbage..

Hard cheese mate.

It all depends on your relationship with your mother.

My parents have learnt that my business is my business and they do not attempt to get me involved in that sort of stuff. On the other hand, because of the respect they pay me, I always am happy to engage in family activities, even if they are religion-related.

The way I see it, either your mum is becoming more 'hard-core' over time, which is something to wtch out for, or she's prepared to sacrifice seeing you over Christmas for the sake of this (again hardcore), or you haven't yet figured out the best relationship between the two of ouy.

How would she feel if, as a result of this ultimatum, you stopped seeing her for Christmas? Would she not suffer too?

Have you talked these things through with her?

An angle you may not have considered: Perhaps she wants people in her circle (e.g. her side of the family) to believe you share her religion. Especially if she once gave them the impression you'd gone to the devil. I guess she'd like to casually mention to those people that you two attended mass. So you may think of this like those staged family photographs people hold up, featuring relatives who weren't really there showing feelings they never really felt.

Let her have the lie to tell. It costs you nothing.

I'm a Muslim, I attended midnight mass with my friends. I don't see where the blackmail is. Its silly to say you want to spend time with your family then make arguments based on belief that prevent you from doing so. If you were anti-abortion would you refuse to accompany a friend for an abortion?

If you were against killing, would you stand idly by and watch your friend gun down a school?
It's the principle of the thing. I believe the church brain washes people. If you tell a lie long enough, it eventually becomes truth.

I think there is a great deal of difference accompanying your family for midnight mass and aiding and abetting in a murder. I think it may be better if you did not spend time with your family. You sound like quite the Debbie Downer.

Thats what you are doing if you are against abortion and stand next to your friend during her abortion.

No I think you're blowing this out of proportion.

My family know my atheist views and tolerate it every other day of the year. I consider it more part of the tradition of what we do every year to go to xmas mass.
If I had the choice I wouldnt go but it's not something i'd make a big deal out of; Im ok to go if its my family's wishes on one day of the year.

I think whatever murder/abortion arguments are being made are just childish and out of proportion. I agree with samcdkey.
Ethical high ground really here lies in respecting others choices, not stubbornly advocating yours.

And she should respect my choice to not go. See? Why should I sacrifice my beliefs to appease hers?

I think there's more going on here. On both sides.

Originally Posted by verzen

And she should respect my choice to not go. See? Why should I sacrifice my beliefs to appease hers?

You have very strong beliefs.

Careful, or they might end up controlling every aspect of your life.

Originally Posted by verzen

It's the principle of the thing.

there are times when 2 favourite principles clash with one another
in this case it appears to be your desire to be with your family over christmas against the principle of not attending religious services

unfortunate though it may be, one of your principles will have to give - which of the 2 would cause you the least pain if you let go for once ?

Originally Posted by verzen

And she should respect my choice to not go. See? Why should I sacrifice my beliefs to appease hers?

And she does but for something you dont believe, I find it means a lot more to her that I go than to me that I don't; it is little intrusion on me to go but what with the yearly traditions etc. it would mean a lot to her; so be it.

I have to agree with obviously.

I go to make my mother happy, despite how absurd the entire process is. Although, I wouldn't say my mother tolerates my atheism well anyway, nor my sexuality, or my political views. It's easier to go to church than listen to her scream.

Your mother believes in God, heaven and hell. She also probably believes that atheists might go to hell, which includes you. She is your mother and does not want that to happen. She probably worries about you, because she cares about you. She wants you to go to mass with her, because she cares about you. I don't know your mother, but it seems to me that she is not being selfish in this instance.

I have some idea of how you feel. Nobody, except for one of my brothers, know that I am an atheist. It is not because I am ashamed or chicken that I don't tell them, but because I know that they will constantly worry themselves needlessly about the destiny of my soul. I don't go to church normally (and they know I don't, but think it is because of less severe issues), but still have to sometimes for weddings and funerals. When this happens I don't fret too much about it, because I try to look at it as a simple declaration of devotion between a couple or a show of last respects to a deceased.

Try and look at it not in terms of the perversity of religion, but at what it means to your mother and at the whole ceremony of good wishes for the new year. You can do it.

How hard is it to enjoy an evening in church? /puzzled

I am often confused by this apparent determination of atheists to allow the religious to dictate the meaning of any occasion. Would you feel the same way if you participated in a native American ritual or a Buddhist chant? Would you feel imposed upon if you visited the Kumbh Mela or Durga Puja in India?

Really, just enjoy yourself, its a family occasion!

mind you, church services can be boring as hell if you feel out of place like a cart horse on a race course, but i don't have any problem with it when it's considered some sort of a social obligation

Originally Posted by samcdkey

How hard is it to enjoy an evening in church? /puzzled

I am often confused by this apparent determination of atheists to allow the religious to dictate the meaning of any occasion. Would you feel the same way if you participated in a native American ritual or a Buddhist chant? Would you feel imposed upon if you visited the Kumbh Mela or Durga Puja in India?

Really, just enjoy yourself, its a family occasion!

Uh, that is basically what I said regarding just seeing it as a celebration of sorts. It is the worshipping part that gets us. Can't you see it? The whole mass consists of giving thanks to, asking guidance and stuff of and displaying your subservience to, what to us, is an imaginary being. But yes, it only needs to get to you if you let it.

PS: +1 on the boring bit!

As I said, I'm a Muslim and I have no issues with it. If you don't believe in it, does it matter what you say and do? Or do you not adhere to these meaningless rituals while attending other symbolical social occasions?

Originally Posted by samcdkey

As I said, I'm a Muslim and I have no issues with it. If you don't believe in it, does it matter what you say and do? Or do you not adhere to these meaningless rituals while attending other symbolical social occasions?

Depends by what you mean by "symbolical social occasions". If it involves worshipping a God, I can't but help getting uneasy. I used to be a pretty strong believer (I still hate it when people uses the lord's name in vein), so I do not like chanting a prayer or whatever when I know it is fake. I hate fakeness. I'll do it if I have to, but I'll avoid it if I could. Especially when the people I am with know that I do not believe in their God, I think it is even pretty condescending and disrespectful to still go through with it if you have no intention of considering joining their ranks. I know that I'd be pissed off.

Perhaps you are taking the whole thing too seriously. Think of it as going to a football game where you don't support the team

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Perhaps you are taking the whole thing too seriously. Think of it as going to a football game where you don't support the team

Well, as I said earlier, nobody really knows I am an atheist. So when a situation comes along where I can't avoid going along, I do. I mostly space out during the boring bits, but I sing along and so on.

Perhaps Verzen can give us some further insight into his specific circumstances and if he unflinchingly avoids going to church, even for weddings and funerals.

I go to the burial and the ceremony, but yes I generally avoid going to church and listening to some old guy preach about things that arn't true. I'm a realist and I fully believe that religion isnt true at all. I guess the same result occurs when I try to explain the fallacy of free will to others who actually believe free will exists...

I do zone out and get EXTREMELY bored. I have ADD and I can't sit still and listen to some guy ramble on about his opinion to people who already share his opinion in the first place. (unlike a debate where both sides have their supporters, this is like a biast religious convention) I love debates because I can side with someone and state MY opinion. But if I am never able to state and refute their opinion then I get bored. It's kind of like communism. You are never allowed to state what you believe for fear of being socially ostracized. It's a dictatorship. I'm a free spirit. I don't like being told what to think and why I should think that way. You start telling me how to think.. I start thinking you are full of BS and I get a bit angry at you.. Make sense?

I love debates because I can side with someone and state MY opinion. But if I am never able to state and refute their opinion then I get bored. It's kind of like communism. You are never allowed to state what you believe for fear of being socially ostracized. It's a dictatorship. I'm a free spirit. I don't like being told what to think and why I should think that way. You start telling me how to think.. I start thinking you are full of BS and I get a bit angry at you.. Make sense?

Yeah, you want to tell them what to think but you don't want them to return the favor. :P

Not it at ALL...
I use to love debating with a highly religious person in my philosophy class.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Think of it as going to a football game where you don't support the team.

This is not even close. At a footbal game there are many things for the non-partisan spectator to enjoy; athleticism, skill, tactics and many more. This is not the same as standing in a room with three hundred people who all think they are talking to the creator of the universe.

To create a more meaningful analogy, would you go with your mother to her club where she and two hundred of her friends all talk to a big bowl of pink blancmange? They have composed special songs they sing to it and special incantations they chant in the fervent hope that doing so will make them a better person. They also think this pink blancmange will affect what happens to their body after they die and that your disbelief is a sure sign that the same nice things will not happen to your body when you die.

If my mother told me that is what she and her friends got up to I would get a doctor round there straight away, and pretending otherwise would be a derogation of my responsibility as her son.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Yeah, you want to tell them what to think but you don't want them to return the favor.

You misunderstood. Verzen wants to be able to tell them what he thinks, not what they think. He wants to share his opinions with people who will at least listen, even if they do not agree. The problem he experiences is that the norms of society are those suggested by other posters in this thread; that he should "suspend his disbelief" for a couple of hours in order to appease his mother. I suspect that Verzen does not understand when the reciprocal arrangement occurs; when does his mother "suspend her belief" to accommodate his atheism?

My experience is that this never happens.

I suspect that Verzen does not understand when the reciprocal arrangement occurs; when does his mother "suspend her belief" to accommodate his atheism?

You mean when should he demand of her what is so difficult for himself? I don't see much to choose from between the two of them, except in terms of motive. Verzen is all about himself and seems as prone to putting his beliefs before everything else as his mother. His mother at least, is doing what she considers best for him, its too bad she is unwilling to reach a compromise, but even if she did, she might still expect him to go mass with her on Christmas eve. He could always opt to not spend time with his family, though what anyone stands to gain from that, is beyond me.

Maturity involves doing a lot of things for which there is no personal gain. Its childish to expect to be entertained when you are unwilling to accomodate.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Maturity involves doing a lot of things for which there is no personal gain. Its childish to expect to be entertained when you are unwilling to accomodate.

Having spent thirty years accommodating without being entertained I fully understand where Verzen is coming from here. I understand your point, but I disagree with you. As I have already said, my experinece has been that there will be no "accommodation" and it would be naive of Verzen to assume that there will. What happens in practice is that he "suspends his disbelief" this year and then next year they will use that as justification for him to do it again, and again, and again. But there will NEVER be any accommodation where they "suspend their belief" to accommodate his beliefs.

I subscribe to the idea that it takes two to Tango. I also subscribe to the idea that it is arrogant of folks to insist that I have to abandon my principles for theirs everytime we meet. Anyone who is not able to at least meet me halfway is not worth the effort.

You obviously disagree.

I think if accommodating your family for Christmas mass once a year is an enormous and undoable sacrifice, then future relationships are likely to insurmountable difficulties.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

...if accommodating your family for Christmas mass once a year is an enormous and undoable sacrifice...

And yet you still do not see the need to explain why it is only ever one side that makes this sacrifice. If it is really as "doable" as you claim then there should be some accommodation here, but there is not. It is the religious, pious, God believing folks who put their foot down and insist that their beliefs be honoured at the expense of everyone elses, everytime, for ever.

Can you actually think of anything more hypocritical?

Yeah, how hypocritical of the mother to expect her son to join her for Christmas mass, instead of listening to him tell her how delusional she is for her beliefs. Clearly, the family would be better served if everyone just accepted that his atheism was THE paramount issue at Christmas. I can never understand athiests. :?

Originally Posted by samcdkey

How hard is it to enjoy an evening in church?

Oh ho ho ho............. It can be really bad indeed! If his mother has arranged an ambush, it could be really unpleasant. However because he used the word "mass" I assumed that He meant a sacrimental type church like a Catholic church where that would be much less likely to happen, especially on Christmas. But if this is a pentacostal or fundamentalist church, well then you might want to be more careful.

You mean he would be the focus of the mass, rather than Jesus?

Originally Posted by samcdkey

I can never understand athiests.

It isn't atheists you don't understand; it is fair play. It is having both sides agree to treat the other the way they would like to be treated, not just having one side always insisting that their way is the only one that is going to be tolerated.

You paraphrase Verzen's intentions as him telling his mother how delusional she is, but you have no reason whatsoever to suspect that is what he would do. All he ever said was that he wanted to visit her without going to church. Your resorting to these exaggeration tactics is symptomatic of an inability to deal with the real issue, which is an even-handed approach to personal principles and beliefs.

You seem to think it is acceptable to require anyone who does not subscribe to your belief to nevertheless pretend, not only to themselves but to your God, that they do believe simply to appease your personal principles. Well, if your principles require me to lie to your God then what value your principles?

Personally, I think that accepting that all people are different and accepting them on their own terms is a much more civilised and mature attitude than requiring them to pretend to lie to an invisible deity.

Maybe he should visit her at some other time, then, rather than at Christmas. Its pretty strange to visit someone at Christmas then lay down conditions of participation based on differences in belief. When I visit my Christian friends for Christmas, I do not allow my beliefs to prevent me from participating in their joy, just as when I visit my Hindu friends for a housewarming, I can sit around their puja place and read from the little books of prayers they hand out. If my intention in visiting them is to impress upon our differences rather than sharing in their pleasures, then there are more opportune times for doing so. Note that I do not see it as quid pro quo, ie they are not compelled to perform salat with me to "prove" their sense of fair play.

Sam, you realize that Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday?
You realize the Christians stole the holiday from the Pagan celebration to begin with?

Yeah...

Originally Posted by verzen

Sam, you realize that Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday?
You realize the Christians stole the holiday from the Pagan celebration to begin with?

Yeah...

And how is this relevant to your mothers desire to attend mass? Or her theism? Would it make a difference to you if she was worshiping a pagan god instead?

You wrote:

Maybe he should visit her at some other time, then, rather than at Christmas. Its pretty strange to visit someone at Christmas then lay down conditions of participation based on differences in belief.

Maybe its because Christmas or a celebration of winter has been celebrated throughout the centuries and maybe I just want to participate in the festivities based on the celebration of winter in a non-religious way? Why should I succumb to a religious mind set just because YOU think Christmas should be a religious holiday?

Edit since you edited: If my mom worshiped a pagan god then I would still celebrate the winter solstace and a celebration of this time of year.

Originally Posted by verzen

Maybe its because Christmas or a celebration of winter has been celebrated throughout the centuries and maybe I just want to participate in the festivities based on the celebration of winter in a non-religious way? Why should I succumb to a religious mind set just because YOU think Christmas should be a religious holiday?

Edit since you edited: If my mom worshiped a pagan god then I would still celebrate the winter solstace and a celebration of this time of year.

Why would you celebrate the winter solstice?

I'm an Atheist and my girlfriend is a Christian. I attend church every once in a while because it makes her happy. I'm not scared of getting brainwashed. I'm far more concerned of getting exposed to information/ beliefs when I'm not analyzing the info consciously. It does bother me to hear a cocky preacher make unjustified claims and take shots at anyone who may see reality in a different light while the congregation just nods along uncritically. But hey, that's life.

If the concern is that big, then the OP may consider turning the tables on his family and not show up so long as they demand that he attend church and maybe they'll see things his way and how it's unfair. Then again, maybe the OP will lose a bunch of family time that one day he'll regret because when he looks at this all in retrospect, losing that time with those that he loves just wasn't worth sitting through an hour or two per year of something that he doesn't agree with.

On a side note, if my girlfriend wasn't a Christian, I'd still celebrate Christmas in a secular fashion. I've read comments from theists that this type of behavior is a "win" for them and hypocritical for atheists. Christmas in deeply ingrained in in the American culture. It's a national holiday and it plays a significant role in the wellbeing of our economy. It's a day or two off of work and is an excuse to get together with loved ones and make great memories. There would just be no religious symbols and I wouldn't decorate nearly as much.

Interesting discussion guys. And season's greetings.


I used to balk (privately) at Christian functions. Boring as hell, I thought. And the faking - I hated faking. Now I welcome the opportunity: to study Christians in their natural element! I get into full tilt sociologist's mindset, and suddenly the rambling old preacher and flock become fascinating subjects. Why do they do it? What is really going on here? What are the unacknowledged transactions? As an objective atheist I can see things the participants cannot. And it's really wonderful. It's like watching coworkers ostensibly discussing picky details of their work, while on another level they are practically making love through the nuts and bolts so to speak. Their keenness and exclusivity makes it all the more intense. The breadth of guise is proportional to the depth of personal expression.

Their lips say Jesus but their nativity scenes say babies lovely babies.

My mother belongs to a garden club. Ladies and their gardens - what could be more boring? Like what's the point in "poking around other people's gardens" as my mother puts it? I could say "I don't believe in this". But read the subtexts and holy crap! it's their life guts spilled across yards in language any gardener can read plain as biography. So I visit these gardens and their owners guide me down their private paths, interpreting the symbols. Why they planted baby's breath amongst strawberries, why they plan to get rid of that overgrown mock orange, and so on. Oh you got this rose from your sister in Edmonton? Go on...

My mom belongs to the "Hardy Plants Group" in particular, which says a lot in itself. According to her there are different levels of self-awareness, in the various groups. Naturally people gravitate to peers on the same wavelength. Sects. To an outsider the dahlia people might seem like closed-minded blind fanatics.

I dig ritual in the same way. It's a vehicle. It's not the thing itself. Kinda like E.T. was not really about a space alien. You don't have to believe in it to get the meaning.

Originally Posted by Pong

Interesting discussion guys. And season's greetings.


I used to balk (privately) at Christian functions. Boring as hell, I thought. And the faking - I hated faking. Now I welcome the opportunity: to study Christians in their natural element! I get into full tilt sociologist's mindset, and suddenly the rambling old preacher and flock become fascinating subjects. Why do they do it? What is really going on here? What are the unacknowledged transactions? As an objective atheist I can see things the participants cannot. And it's really wonderful. It's like watching coworkers ostensibly discussing picky details of their work, while on another level they are practically making love through the nuts and bolts so to speak. Their keenness and exclusivity makes it all the more intense. The breadth of guise is proportional to the depth of personal expression.

Their lips say Jesus but their nativity scenes say babies lovely babies.

My mother belongs to a garden club. Ladies and their gardens - what could be more boring? Like what's the point in "poking around other people's gardens" as my mother puts it? I could say "I don't believe in this". But read the subtexts and holy crap! it's their life guts spilled across yards in language any gardener can read plain as biography. So I visit these gardens and their owners guide me down their private paths, interpreting the symbols. Why they planted baby's breath amongst strawberries, why they plan to get rid of that overgrown mock orange, and so on. Oh you got this rose from your sister in Edmonton? Go on...

My mom belongs to the "Hardy Plants Group" in particular, which says a lot in itself. According to her there are different levels of self-awareness, in the various groups. Naturally people gravitate to peers on the same wavelength. Sects. To an outsider the dahlia people might seem like closed-minded blind fanatics.

I dig ritual in the same way. It's a vehicle. It's not the thing itself. Kinda like E.T. was not really about a space alien. You don't have to believe in it to get the meaning.

This type of observation is what gets me through church sermons. I do find the cocky attitudes annoying at times, but it's all interesting nonetheless.

I do refuse to go to midnight mass on christmas since the last time I actually fell asleep.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Originally Posted by verzen

Maybe its because Christmas or a celebration of winter has been celebrated throughout the centuries and maybe I just want to participate in the festivities based on the celebration of winter in a non-religious way? Why should I succumb to a religious mind set just because YOU think Christmas should be a religious holiday?

Edit since you edited: If my mom worshiped a pagan god then I would still celebrate the winter solstace and a celebration of this time of year.

Why would you celebrate the winter solstice?

I don't technically.. But it's a cultural celebration which celebrates the winter months.. Which is what the Winter Solstice is in the first place.

Originally Posted by verzen

I don't technically.. But it's a cultural celebration which celebrates the winter months.. Which is what the Winter Solstice is in the first place.

Cultural celebration? And you know this how? Because every religion has it?

Its a celebration of re-birth and is tied to old myths about the stars. It may be one of the oldest continuous religious notions of human society that has persisted.

But why would an atheist want to culturally celebrate winter? Whats your reasoning for that?

As the seasons progress the point at which the Sun rises moves along the horizon. In the Northern Hemisphere, the point when the sun is farthest North on the horizon is the Summer Solstice, and this marks the longest day of the year (approx. June 20). Then as you move into winter the sunrise moves steadily south and the days also get shorter and shorter. The Winter Solstice is the point when the Sun stops going south and starts the return journey. The Solstice is also the shortest day of the year (approx Dec 21). From that point, the Sun starts moving North again along the horizon and the days start to get longer.

The re-birth is symbolic; it is the re-birth of the Sun, it is the dawn of a new year, it is the re-birth of Spring the season of new growth and this year's crops and flowers, it is a chance to start again and correct the mistakes of the past. Many cultures have celebrated the Solstice and there are examples of buildings erected for this specific purpose. The Megalithic passage tomb at Newgrange in Ireland is one well-known example.

Astronomy Note: Literally speaking the Sun does not move along the horizon. What actually happens is the Earth tilts on its axis with respect to the plane of it's circuit around the sun. However, the most easily observed result of this tilt is that sunrise "appears" to move along the horizon. The actual solstice will occur at around 12:04 today, 21 Dec 2008, Greenwich time.

You know, contrary to popular belief, atheists arn't depressed and down in the dumps people who don't celebrate anything and don't have any fun while vindictively trying to convert every theist to their point of view. We arn't methodical in what we do, we arnt downers who hate life and that's why we are atheists.. You have a gloom view of what an actual atheist is. We just want balance in life. We don't want everything to say "God this" "God that" because other people believe in Allah or believe in hinduism. It's not all about you. It's about equality within life. Each person has their own specific opinion on what life is like. I personally don't believe in a sentient god making me an atheist. But if we give God the definition of our creator, then obviously the universe would be our god but no, I do not believe it is sentient.

See? Thats why I dislike 'ignorant' christians. Christians who are actually intelligent individuals I have no problem with. But those Christians who say, "Ohh, you're an atheist? That means you have no morals, don't celebrate and don't have any fun in life, right?"
You may not understand atheists. So you automatically assume things about Atheists that are simply not true. Maybe you need to actually TALK to an intelligent Atheist before making judgements based on unfound knowledge.

Oh, if you are going to comment on how insulting it is to remove God from the Pledge and from the dollar bill? We want equality in our beliefs. I don't care what you believe in, just don't force my child to say the pledge if it has god in it. Just don't FORCE my child to pray in school.. DON'T force our children to divulge in your opinionated mythology.

Keep your beliefs to your self and stop pressing them on other people. Is that so difficult?
Stop questioning why people believe what they believe. I don't believe in god.. Does that mean I am evil and immoral? Sadly, according to most Christians, yes. In reality? http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm wow.. less than 1% of atheists are in prison? That must mean more than 99% of prisoners believe in some higher power... Amazing.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Cultural celebration? And you know this how? Because every religion has it?

Its a celebration of re-birth and is tied to old myths about the stars. It may be one of the oldest continuous religious notions of human society that has persisted.

But why would an atheist want to culturally celebrate winter? Whats your reasoning for that?

I can't speak for verzen, but I'd like to interject here because it seems like you're going down a line of reasoning that doesn't hold much weight. First, it would seem pretty easily that if one refers to a cultural celebration in that context, it would most likely refer to his culture, the one that he associates to. It could be a large culture or a subculture, but that's not relevant. Secondly, atheists can celebrate whatever floats their boat just like any human being. So long as it's legal, what does it matter "why"? You line of questioning seems to imply a lot of ignorant assumptions as to what atheists are and what they "should" be doing with their time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Kaizen

I can't speak for verzen, but I'd like to interject here because it seems like you're going down a line of reasoning that doesn't hold much weight. First, it would seem pretty easily that if one refers to a cultural celebration in that context, it would most likely refer to his culture, the one that he associates to. It could be a large culture or a subculture, but that's not relevant. Secondly, atheists can celebrate whatever floats their boat just like any human being. So long as it's legal, what does it matter "why"? You line of questioning seems to imply a lot of ignorant assumptions as to what atheists are and what they "should" be doing with their time. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you can celebrate anything you want to. He was the one who was harking back to pagan winter solstices. Whats the difference between his mother celebrating it as part of her Christmas if he is celebrating winter because some ancient tribals did it? He is no more pagan than she is. Unless he is following all the ancient customs and rituals?

Originally Posted by numbers

As the seasons progress the point at which the Sun rises moves along the horizon. In the Northern Hemisphere, the point when the sun is farthest North on the horizon is the Summer Solstice, and this marks the longest day of the year (approx. June 20). Then as you move into winter the sunrise moves steadily south and the days also get shorter and shorter. The Winter Solstice is the point when the Sun stops going south and starts the return journey. The Solstice is also the shortest day of the year (approx Dec 21). From that point, the Sun starts moving North again along the horizon and the days start to get longer.

The re-birth is symbolic; it is the re-birth of the Sun, it is the dawn of a new year, it is the re-birth of Spring the season of new growth and this year's crops and flowers, it is a chance to start again and correct the mistakes of the past. Many cultures have celebrated the Solstice and there are examples of buildings erected for this specific purpose. The Megalithic passage tomb at Newgrange in Ireland is one well-known example.

Astronomy Note: Literally speaking the Sun does not move along the horizon. What actually happens is the Earth tilts on its axis with respect to the plane of it's circuit around the sun. However, the most easily observed result of this tilt is that sunrise "appears" to move along the horizon. The actual solstice will occur at around 12:04 today, 21 Dec 2008, Greenwich time.

Originally Posted by verzen

You know, contrary to popular belief, atheists arn't depressed and down in the dumps people who don't celebrate anything and don't have any fun while vindictively trying to convert every theist to their point of view. We arn't methodical in what we do, we arnt downers who hate life and that's why we are atheists.. You have a gloom view of what an actual atheist is. We just want balance in life. We don't want everything to say "God this" "God that" because other people believe in Allah or believe in hinduism. It's not all about you. It's about equality within life. Each person has their own specific opinion on what life is like. I personally don't believe in a sentient god making me an atheist. But if we give God the definition of our creator, then obviously the universe would be our god but no, I do not believe it is sentient.

See? Thats why I dislike 'ignorant' christians. Christians who are actually intelligent individuals I have no problem with. But those Christians who say, "Ohh, you're an atheist? That means you have no morals, don't celebrate and don't have any fun in life, right?"
You may not understand atheists. So you automatically assume things about Atheists that are simply not true. Maybe you need to actually TALK to an intelligent Atheist before making judgements based on unfound knowledge.

Oh, if you are going to comment on how insulting it is to remove God from the Pledge and from the dollar bill? We want equality in our beliefs. I don't care what you believe in, just don't force my child to say the pledge if it has god in it. Just don't FORCE my child to pray in school.. DON'T force our children to divulge in your opinionated mythology.

Keep your beliefs to your self and stop pressing them on other people. Is that so difficult?
Stop questioning why people believe what they believe. I don't believe in god.. Does that mean I am evil and immoral? Sadly, according to most Christians, yes. In reality? http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm wow.. less than 1% of atheists are in prison? That must mean more than 99% of prisoners believe in some higher power... Amazing.

What does any of this have to do with celebrating a pagan winter solstice? Do you know any "culture" without religion that celebrated it?

Stop questioning why people believe what they believe.

Ironic, really.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

What does any of this have to do with celebrating a pagan winter solstice?

Your original question was: Why would an atheist celebrate the Winter Solstice. Since that was the question you asked that was the question I answered.

I'm really sorry you cannot understand how my post answers the question you originally asked, and I'm also sorry I took the trouble to try. It has become apparent that you are not interested in an open discussion but in picking fights. I'll leave you to fight with someone else.

Originally Posted by numbers

Originally Posted by samcdkey

What does any of this have to do with celebrating a pagan winter solstice?

Your original question was: Why would an atheist celebrate the Winter Solstice. Since that was the question you asked that was the question I answered.

I'm really sorry you cannot understand how my post answers the question you originally asked, and I'm also sorry I took the trouble to try. It has become apparent that you are not interested in an open discussion but in picking fights. I'll leave you to fight with someone else.

I am merely questioning verzens underlying assumption that a celebration of the winter solstice is proprietory to an unknown origin. All cultures are based on a cult. And cults tend to have similar characteristics. Atheism is not a cult.

Hence, my question.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

I think you can celebrate anything you want to. He was the one who was harking back to pagan winter solstices. Whats the difference between his mother celebrating it as part of her Christmas if he is celebrating winter because some ancient tribals did it? He is no more pagan than she is. Unless he is following all the ancient customs and rituals?

I can understand your question now and I don't think that's unreasonable to ask. I can't answer for him, but I'd like to take a guess. Based on his posts, I would guess that he has negative associations to Christianity, possibly due to aggressive proselytizing tactics. And although he does have a negative image of Christianity, that doesn't seem to be the case with the general celebration that occurs at or the around Christmas. I would further guess that he doesn't hold that same negative image towards the pagan tradition, hence the openness toward celebrating in that name (if he does).

I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas (in a secular fashion). I get the day off and get to spend that time off with those who are close to me. So I can understand the appeal of celebrating Christmas without the religion or the Christian icons.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

I am merely questioning verzens underlying assumption that a celebration of the winter solstice is proprietory to an unknown origin.

I would suggest that you are wrong to assume that Verzen assumes that celebrations of Winter Solstice have an unknown origin. The origin might be unknown to you and it might even be unknown to Verzen, but there is no reason to suppose that Verzen assumes the origin is unknown.

If you want to make assumptions about other users it is considered good form to say so first. "I think you mean this and so I will assume you think so and so..." or something like that.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

All cultures are based on a cult.

Crass nonsense.

For the purposes of a religious forum a cult can be defined as follows: An unorthodox, extremist, or false religion or sect who often live outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.

Most English speaking people when they refer to a culture, as opposed to simply referring to culture generally, mean a group of people who have the same or similar environment in time and space. The Beaker culture, the San culture, High School culture, etc. These have nothing to do with either beliefs or charismatic leaders (some cultures do however have charismatic leaders, the Mongols and the Huns for example), require no extreme behaviours and are usually mainstream rather than unorthodox. It is entirely possible that something that starts as a cult will become more popular and mainstream and so cease to be a cult and morph into a culture. But to claim that such happens always and that all cultures are based on cults is muddle-headed nonsense.

I would also like to point out that your "explanation" does not deal with why you originally asked why an atheist would celebrate the Winter Solstice, and when this was answered for you, you claimed that it had not answered your unstated question about pagan worship. People who move the goal posts are generally considered dishonest and consequently get short shrift.

I would also like to point out that your "explanation" does not deal with why you originally asked why an atheist would celebrate the Winter Solstice, and when this was answered for you, you claimed that it had not answered your unstated question about pagan worship. People who move the goal posts are generally considered dishonest and consequently get short shrift.

I merely asked why an athiest is celebrating a centuries old cultural tradition based on an alignment of the stars. That is why he is celebrating it, right? Because its cultural tradition to do so since thousands of years?


The study of any culture or panaromically, any civilisation begins with the study of its cults. Etymologically, both culture and cult are from the same Latin root "cultus", meaning to worship, to care or to cultivate. I am curious to see if you can point out a "culture" in the absence of a "cult".

For all the ESL like me out there:

cult
   /kʌlt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kuhlt] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.

Originally Posted by Kaizen

I'm not Christian, but I celebrate Christmas (in a secular fashion). I get the day off and get to spend that time off with those who are close to me. So I can understand the appeal of celebrating Christmas without the religion or the Christian icons.

I'm not Christian either and I can see the appeal of Christmas too. However, I do not pretend that I am [or they should be] celebrating a traditional winter solstice since that has no association or meaning for me [besides in India, we have many different harvest festivals when we can celebrate all the changing of the seasons, it seems petty to try and take Christmas from the Christians]. For the same reason, I wish my friends Merry Christmas and not some politically correct Happy Holidays. They wish me compliments of the season. If they say Merry Christmas instead, I consider it an inclusive act on their parts. I think that is a fair accommodation on both sides.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

But why would an atheist want to culturally celebrate winter? Whats your reasoning for that?

may i try and inject a more materialistic explanation of why christmas and similar events happen around this time of the year ? until then the days are getting shorter, but from about the last week of december it would have become clear to the stargazers in neolithic days that this process of shortening days had started to reverse itself - it's quite easy to see how this reversal could be interpreted as a rebirth or at least a fresh start of sorts

the fact that we now set the shortest day at the 20th/21st of december merely reflects the fact that we can measure time with greater accuracy than thousands of years ago, so we can be sure that the days are already lengthening again a few days before the ancients could

Originally Posted by marnixR

Originally Posted by samcdkey

But why would an atheist want to culturally celebrate winter? Whats your reasoning for that?

may i try and inject a more materialistic explanation of why christmas and similar events happen around this time of the year ? until then the days are getting shorter, but from about the last week of december it would have become clear to the stargazers in neolithic days that this process of shortening days had started to reverse itself - it's quite easy to see how this reversal could be interpreted as a rebirth or at least a fresh start of sorts

the fact that we now set the shortest day at the 20th/21st of december merely reflects the fact that we can measure time with greater accuracy than thousands of years ago, so we can be sure that the days are already lengthening again a few days before the ancients could

Or maybe, its dark and cold and they have nothing to do [except have sex perhaps], so they build a fire and dance around it. That could be their reasoning. I'm not interested in why they were celebrating it.

Originally Posted by samcdkey

Or maybe, its dark and cold and they have nothing to do [except have sex perhaps], so they build a fire and dance around it.

I'm inclined to favour that practical explanation over mysticism. For any region where winter crops thin or literally freeze over, people wait and huddle... and they begin to turn a little nutty. Remember: no TV, no books, no social outings, just you and yer family and the fleas and rats. Planned festivity right around solstice is an excellent means of venting cabin fever - in a good way not a bad way. Northern cultures that failed to build this tradition, I think, would tend to self-destruct. Later, after it's established, then we rationalize it and mystify it. Most features of most cultures follow that same pattern, where an initially practical adaptation becomes so taken for granted that people forget what it was for in the first place. E.g. why not keep pigs and eat pork in Arabia, why prefer tea over raw river water?

What a meaningless discussion.

Who cares about were these traditions come from or how they are celebrated? It's nonesense! We all celebrate traditions both similarily and differently. Who cares how Verzen decides to celebrate? It matters not how he celebrates or if he indeed does celebrate. There's no right or wrong here. There's no objective answer either.

It makes sense that Verzen perhaps doesn't want to celebrate Christmas by wasting his time in church. Whether or not Christmas is a pagen holiday is irrelevant.

You're all wasting your time with a discourse on nonesense.

What matters here are two conflicting belief systems. Both sides have a cost by doing what the other one want to.

If Verzen doesn't like to celebrate Christmas in a christian way then he should either celebrate it some other way or reach a compromise with his mother. For example:

"This year we'll do x, and next year we'll do y"

Verzen told us he usually goes to his mother's house on Christmas, but this time his mother wants him in church. It makes sense that if Verzen wants to spend time with his family that he'll in fact join his mother to church this one time since, after all, this is how his mother wants to celebrate her Christmas.

Yet here is the real problem.

She is blackmailing you Verzen in that she doesn't give you a choice to attend Christmas mass or not. For me, this seems a small sacrifice. But because she can attend herself whilst you don't, it makes little sense for her to force you to go, or else. The blackmail is in fact immoral and should instead be an invitation. The fact that it's not an invitation to join mass, but a ticket in order to spend time with your family should tell you something.

If I were you I would point out the selfishness of this to your mother and explain that you're not interested in wasting time in church. She should respect your belief and you should respect hers. Right now she isn't respecting your belief system, and you should definitely point that out.

Explain that an invitation is much better than blackmailing. And she should be ashamed of herself for trying to blackmail her own son.

End of discussion.

I just don't see the point of all this confrontation over what is merely a ritual of celebration. No one can force anyone to believe anything they don't want to, thats not how it works.

But it may be useful to look at our own rationalisations for doing things to accomodate our belief [the tribals did it, so its okay, its not religious, I can do it]. If you want to celebrate Christmas without believing in God, do it. Who cares why other people do it?

Originally Posted by samcdkey

No one can force anyone to believe anything they don't want to, thats not how it works.

"Religious fundamentalism has grown beyond proportions. Muslim clerics are demanding complete imposition of Islamic Shariah in Pakistan, making it applicable also to the non-Muslim citizens.

The minorities in Pakistan have already suffered seriously on account of sectarian legislation which has thrown non-Muslim citizens out of the mainstream of national life. They are no more part of the mainstream activities of the state and are being discriminated against in all fields of life. The claim of the minorities as equal and respectable citizens is at stake. The life and property of people in minority community is no longer safe. A sense of insecurity is growing fast among the minorities.

The Christians are being roped in false cases under the blasphemy law. They are being murdered by zealots to win heavens for themselves. They take the law in their hands and do not even wait for the judicial verdict. The judgements of the superior courts have proved that this law on blasphemy is being ruthlessly abused for settling personal scores and, of course, for religious persecution. This law is proving to be a sword hanging on the heads of non-Muslims and the secular-minded people."

http://www.hrsolidarity.net/mainfile...ol09no07/1143/

Originally Posted by Obviously

What a meaningless discussion.

Who cares about were these traditions come from or how they are celebrated? It's nonesense! We all celebrate traditions both similarily and differently. Who cares how Verzen decides to celebrate? It matters not how he celebrates or if he indeed does celebrate. There's no right or wrong here. There's no objective answer either.

It makes sense that Verzen perhaps doesn't want to celebrate Christmas by wasting his time in church. Whether or not Christmas is a pagen holiday is irrelevant.

You're all wasting your time with a discourse on nonesense.

What matters here are two conflicting belief systems. Both sides have a cost by doing what the other one want to.

If Verzen doesn't like to celebrate Christmas in a christian way then he should either celebrate it some other way or reach a compromise with his mother. For example:

"This year we'll do x, and next year we'll do y"

Verzen told us he usually goes to his mother's house on Christmas, but this time his mother wants him in church. It makes sense that if Verzen wants to spend time with his family that he'll in fact join his mother to church this one time since, after all, this is how his mother wants to celebrate her Christmas.

Yet here is the real problem.

She is blackmailing you Verzen in that she doesn't give you a choice to attend Christmas mass or not. For me, this seems a small sacrifice. But because she can attend herself whilst you don't, it makes little sense for her to force you to go, or else. The blackmail is in fact immoral and should instead be an invitation. The fact that it's not an invitation to join mass, but a ticket in order to spend time with your family should tell you something.

If I were you I would point out the selfishness of this to your mother and explain that you're not interested in wasting time in church. She should respect your belief and you should respect hers. Right now she isn't respecting your belief system, and you should definitely point that out.

Explain that an invitation is much better than blackmailing. And she should be ashamed of herself for trying to blackmail her own son.

End of discussion.

Tried explaining this to my brother, my sister and my mom..

My brother tells me "I" am selfish and this should be a Christmas gift to my mother.. I try to explain equality. My brother tries to explain that Christmas is not originally a pagan holiday and it is time to celebrate Jesus.. My brothers wife corrects my brother and says that it IS originally a pagan holiday.

My sister informs me that "I" am being selfish and this should be the one time of the year I go to church with my mother. I try to tell her about your compromise that you said. She said that I should just do it.

My mother starts crying about it and she tells me there is NO compromise and starts yelling about me going to church or she refuses to buy me presents or to spend time with me...

I'm 24 years old btw so it's a bit childish to treat me.. well.. like a child.

Any other idea's obviously?

Edit: Little off subject, but I also tried to explain to my family that Under God in the pledge and In God We Trust on the dollar both reflect a specific Christian entity since our country is not a Christian country. Christian majority but not Christian soley and we should respect ALL beliefs so I expect it to say every single god or no god at all.. Since our paper money would have to be 10,000 times bigger to fit every single god in it, then there should be no god mentioned on our money.. I also had to explain that both were added around 1960 and was not around at the very start. She said it was voted on so it is ok. I tried explaining that if we vote on slavery to be reinstated would it be ok too? Or how about the Japanese internment camps, were those ok since our German enemy was doing practically the same thing and it was voted in, in congress? Just because things are does not mean they should be. Ghandi once said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ" .. So I got her a book titled, "Unchristian" Which should help her be a better Christian which may help her understand others beliefs systems

i doubt whether there's a win-win situation in this one
so, my original question remains : what's it worth to you to spend time with your family ? if going to church is too high a price, are you willing to live the consequences ?

If having a revolution to fight against English rule is too much of a price for independence, then we (the U.S.) would still be part of England and be accustomed to the Church of England which we fought against for freedom of thought. It's the principle of the matter. Why should I divulge in her theistic views when she refuses to partake in my non-theistic views? This is why non-theists do not get along with theists. They try to reason with us by only allowing their view to matter when they take no time out of their day for our view and they blame 'us' for being selfish and not respecting their view. It's ok for them to shove their religious principles down our throats but when we say enough is enough, we are labeled as selfish Satan worshiping cretins who are trying to bring down Christianity. My family started talking amongst themselves about the atheistic principle and that because of atheists no one can preach or say anything about religion at all.. I'm listening in and I say, "Hello guys, im an atheist yet you arn't even asking me why they do what they do." They tell me that I am generalizing all atheists (which is what they did) when I informed her that Atheists want equality. They don't mind it if people worship. They just don't want a religion to be singled out and praised by everyone and everyone who doesn't follow this single religion will be ostracized. Everything should be equal or NOTHING should be mentioned. Since everything being equal is absurd for people to even consider, then it should never be mentioned.

that wasn't my question

what i'm saying is that you'll have to make a decision and live with the consequences of that decision - if that includes a separation from your nearest (and dearest ?), can you live with that separation ?

Um.. yes? Of course I can because it's only for one day, plus why would you want to be near someone who discriminates against you. I am fighting for equality.. She is fighting for singularity in thought which in itself is rubbish.

Originally Posted by Obviously

she should be ashamed of herself for trying to blackmail her own son

Well that's what parents do. We manipulate.... we "offer choices". :wink: That's absolutely necessary in the early years and it becomes second nature. Abandoning that part of oneself must be difficult, as it's basically snuffing one's own parenting urge. In this light "blackmail" is hardly something we should be ashamed of.



Verzen, you didn't reply to my first post, where I suggested your mother may want to have the superficial fact of your attendance at mass for ends beyond you. Pardon my presumption in doubting your mother's such an ideologue she's "fighting for singularity in thought". Do you know what she's really fighting for? Perhaps she needs a piece of evidence to to defend you and her before critical friends or family? Women set up such social proofs all the time. Try to empathize with the position she's in. She needs to be a good mother by her own reckoning and others' too.

Personally, I would go one better than conspiring with my fellow adult mother: I would help her to deceive even herself. The parent/child roles are reversible. :wink:

i find it strange that some people can sever family ties so easily, but then again, each person and each family is different i suppose ...

hope you enjoy the christmas period whatever you do

i'll be spending it with my family but won't be going to church. I can spend time with my family by pointing my face at a television instead of a paster!

L'enfer, c'est les autres - Sartre.

Originally Posted by verzen

Um.. yes? Of course I can because it's only for one day, plus why would you want to be near someone who discriminates against you. I am fighting for equality.. She is fighting for singularity in thought which in itself is rubbish.

Fair enough.

I have been to a church once in the christian USA and it was a bloody frightening experience which I would not wish upon anybody. (Frightening because of the "take it on faith, take it all on faith" message being preached with the whole congregation nodding in obedience - including children.)

In general I don't have a problem going to church but, like you, I'm sure I'd become a bit mulish if I thought anyone was trying to manipulate me into doing something.

If you're staying away from your family this Christmas, by all means do so and make the point. Froma relationship point of view, however, it might be worthwhile also leaving open lots of ways (without loss of face) for your mother and the rest of your family to continue to keep in touch with you in general.

Perhaps then they'll take the point.