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Thread: Is Proof of God Really Necessary?

  1. #1 Is Proof of God Really Necessary? 
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    Though it is a challenging undertaking, is it really necessary to have proof of God to believe in some sort of god? Is faith just a blind, useless exercise of pure ignorance?

    My answer would be no to both questions. When I was an Atheist, I still had ideals, dreams, and goals--none of which were real at the moment of their conception, and, chances are excellent that some of my ideals, goals and dreams will never be reached and never be real.

    But that doesn't matter. The value in these unreal things is their ability to bring out the best in me. They make me try harder, and the result is personal growth.

    So maybe God is not a material reality but an ideal reality. Like reaching for the stars, when we reach for God, we better ourselves. You won't find heaven on any map of the world--heaven is what the world could be.

    And faith is not necessarily blind in the present, but looks to the future. It is a catalyst and drive of human progress.


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    Ahhh..... :-D

    Now you are talking my language.

    Yes I agree that the answer is no to both of your first two questions.


    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    But that doesn't matter. The value in these unreal things is their ability to bring out the best in me. They make me try harder, and the result is personal growth.

    So maybe God is not a material reality but an ideal reality. Like reaching for the stars, when we reach for God, we better ourselves. You won't find heaven on any map of the world--heaven is what the world could be.
    Yes and this is focusing on the right question! Which is not this meaningless blather about whether God exists? But what is God? Is there any reason to find any meaning in this word at all? Perhaps many here cannot, but I CAN and I see that you can too.


    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    And faith is not necessarily blind in the present, but looks to the future. It is a catalyst and drive of human progress.
    Faith is not a substitute for reason and it is those who see it as such that indulge in blind faith. But at then end of the day, when all our reason has done all it can, we have to live our life and that means that we have to choose and when we choose we put our faith in something. We live by reason because if we can then that is wise but we live by faith because we ultimately have no choice in that matter. But one of our choices is whether we face up to this fact honestly or pretend that things are otherwise.


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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Ahhh..... :-D

    Now you are talking my language.

    Yes I agree that the answer is no to both of your first two questions.

    Faith is not a substitute for reason and it is those who see it as such that indulge in blind faith. But at then end of the day, when all our reason has done all it can, we have to live our life and that means that we have to choose and when we choose we put our faith in something. We live by reason because if we can then that is wise but we live by faith because we ultimately have no choice in that matter. But one of our choices is whether we face up to this fact honestly or pretend that things are otherwise.

    Some do not realize it, but they have faith in reason and hearsay knowledge. Reason is only as good as what is put into the brain. You know the old saying: "Garbage in, garbage out." Garbage can be very logical and reasonable and still be garbage. Knowledge also is based on faith. What do we really know? Most of my knowledge is from books, magazines, media, teachers... I either have faith in what I'm taught or I don't. Only a small portion is based on actual first-hand experience.

    Experiments and experience help to weed out the garbage. God may not make sense to some reasonable minds, but if God changes lives in a positive way, how can they argue with success--the empirical evidence?
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    I believe in placebo.
    If there is any religion that would cope with modern scientific needs, it would be Buddhism
    -Albert Einstein
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    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    I believe in placebo.
    LOL! The question is, does placebo believe in you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    So maybe God is not a material reality but an ideal reality. Like reaching for the stars, when we reach for God, we better ourselves. You won't find heaven on any map of the world--heaven is what the world could be.
    Even though I am an unrepentant atheist, I can at least understand this. By which I do not mean that I'm going to be rushing out and embracing God any time soon but this does at least make some sense to me. For the first time in over twenty years of talking to theists I feel as if this is finally allowing me to understand what they actually believe.

    So, having made this ground-breaking progress do you think you could possibly move the discussion on a little bit and explain what scripture is for?

    If God is not a thing but an ideal, then he didn't really write the bible, did he? And if god is the ideal, what is the son of God for, and so on. Is scripture just previous generations attempts to say what William said in twelve words, or is there more to it than that?
    Everything the laws of the universe do not prohibit must finally happen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by numbers
    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    So maybe God is not a material reality but an ideal reality. Like reaching for the stars, when we reach for God, we better ourselves. You won't find heaven on any map of the world--heaven is what the world could be.
    Even though I am an unrepentant atheist, I can at least understand this. By which I do not mean that I'm going to be rushing out and embracing God any time soon but this does at least make some sense to me. For the first time in over twenty years of talking to theists I feel as if this is finally allowing me to understand what they actually believe.

    So, having made this ground-breaking progress do you think you could possibly move the discussion on a little bit and explain what scripture is for?

    If God is not a thing but an ideal, then he didn't really write the bible, did he? And if god is the ideal, what is the son of God for, and so on. Is scripture just previous generations attempts to say what William said in twelve words, or is there more to it than that?
    As an ex-Atheist I feel your pain. LOL! There are so many religions and cults--each with their own take. Christ said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The rest is just commentary."

    I think if you peel back the layers of commentary, B.S., or whatever you choose to call it, you will find your own answers.
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  9. #8 Re: Is Proof of God Really Necessary? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    Is faith just a blind, useless exercise of pure ignorance?
    You mean, is faith wicked. Yes, in the eyes of Reason, for It is a jealous God.

    But we don't really have to choose "at the end of the day". In fact we can't. Because the day never ends. More tangibly and with a Pongish spin: we play fast and loose, for eternity. That's life. So unless you want to worship death...
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  10. #9 Re: Is Proof of God Really Necessary? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    Though it is a challenging undertaking, is it really necessary to have proof of God to believe in some sort of god?
    If no proof, then you leave yourself open to believe in anything.

    Is faith just a blind, useless exercise of pure ignorance?
    When it comes to belief in the invisible and non-detectable? Of course.

    When I was an Atheist
    Sorry, but I get the impression you were never an atheist.
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  11. #10 Re: Is Proof of God Really Necessary? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    Though it is a challenging undertaking, is it really necessary to have proof of God to believe in some sort of god?
    If no proof, then you leave yourself open to believe in anything.

    Is faith just a blind, useless exercise of pure ignorance?
    When it comes to belief in the invisible and non-detectable? Of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    When I was an Atheist
    Sorry, but I get the impression you were never an atheist.
    Ah! see now you are challenging Q's own faith in an invisible and non-detectable reality that some people who say they are atheist really aren't atheist at all, which just goes to show just how blind and uselessly ignorant this kind of faith really is.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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  12. #11 Re: Is Proof of God Really Necessary? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    Though it is a challenging undertaking, is it really necessary to have proof of God to believe in some sort of god?
    If no proof, then you leave yourself open to believe in anything.

    Is faith just a blind, useless exercise of pure ignorance?
    When it comes to belief in the invisible and non-detectable? Of course.


    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    When I was an Atheist
    Sorry, but I get the impression you were never an atheist.
    Ah! see now you are challenging Q's own faith in an invisible and non-detectable reality that some people who say they are atheist really aren't atheist at all, which just goes to show just how blind and uselessly ignorant this kind of faith really is.
    It's definitely a conspiracy. Hehehe!
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by williampinn
    Quote Originally Posted by prasit
    I believe in placebo.
    LOL! The question is, does placebo believe in you?
    in soviet russia, placebo believe in you!
    when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth
    A.C Doyle
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