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Thread: IS GOD AN EXCUSE?

  1. #1 IS GOD AN EXCUSE? 
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    Before you guys attack me and rip off my head, I'd like to say in self-defense that this is just natural curiosity in what YOU guys have to say. What i mean is, im just asking you all, "Is God an excuse that people nonchalantly use to provide explanations for whatever happens in their lives?" Is it sort of like people are pointing their fingers at God for everything going on?

    What do you guys think? God=a true being.....or god=excuse?




    I do not wish to offend anyone, so if I did, please let me know, so i can personally apologize. Thanks.



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  3. #2  
    sox
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    I don't think it's an excuse myself.



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    read, " Story of B" by Daniel Quinn, it centers around similar questions. an Accuse, sometimes and to some people, but very often there is much more
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    God is a cop out for not understanding a specific object or idea.
    Zeus? God of lightning. The greeks did not know what caused lightning, thus Zeus was born. We understand our atmosphere now and there is no need for Zeus. We will do not understand why we are here exacly and for as long as we fail to understand life, god will exist. When we understand the exact origins of life and how to recreate it, there is no need for god anymore.
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    God is a cop out for not understanding a specific object or idea.
    So basically, ignorance spawned religion?
    Hmm, interesting idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    God is a cop out for not understanding a specific object or idea.
    So basically, ignorance spawned religion?
    Hmm, interesting idea.
    No, not an idea, a fact.
    You only have to learn a little about the countless gods spawned since the beginning of mans emergence.
    Here! this might help you in your quest. http://www.godchecker.com/
    There are gods here from vomit to volcano's etc whatever your imagination could conjour.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    God is a cop out for not understanding a specific object or idea.
    So basically, ignorance spawned religion?
    Hmm, interesting idea.
    No, not an idea, a fact.
    Prove it if it is a fact :wink:

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    Sox - It's common sense.

    The greeks looked up and saw lightning. They were marveled at this unique phenomena. Only a being of immense power could do such a thing. (Remember. The greeks believed in fairy tails such as minotaurs and gryphons)
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    Ah! That's not the same as fact though verzen! lol

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    In accordance with history, it's impossible to prove. We must rely on common sense when talking about such issues.
    God is to prove what one cannot explain.
    Can you disprove that statement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sox
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos
    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    God is a cop out for not understanding a specific object or idea.
    So basically, ignorance spawned religion?
    Hmm, interesting idea.
    No, not an idea, a fact.
    Prove it if it is a fact :wink:
    Do you think that all the gods of the past and present actually existed?, do you think that none could have been spawned of ignorance?
    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish, and when you read up on some of these gods ( Bumba the god of vomit) or the moon god Tsukiyomi)). You realize how irrational they are, thus they can only be born of ignorance.

    As adults we must put away childish things. But unfortunately two thirds of the worlds adults still hold on to theirs.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    I agree with pavlos. There are something like 20,000 different religions on this planet, and the more strident adherents of each religion all believe they have The Truth, and everyone else is wrong.

    Logically, they cannot all be correct. So who is correct? One out of 20,000? Seriously unlikely. My view is that they are all wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos

    Prove it if it is a fact :wink:
    Do you think that all the gods of the past and present actually existed?, do you think that none could have been spawned of ignorance?
    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish, and when you read up on some of these gods ( Bumba the god of vomit) or the moon god Tsukiyomi)). You realize how irrational they are, thus they can only be born of ignorance.

    As adults we must put away childish things. But unfortunately two thirds of the worlds adults still hold on to theirs.
    how many thousands of different names for "bananas" do you think there has been in the world for the past 5000 years?

    No more fruit for you I'm afraid .....
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    Yes, I agree with Verzen and pavlos....it just seems like there are too many choices for a God. I think that it can be easily observed that as science prevails more and more, the idea of god lessens and lessens. Because once something has been proved by common sense, logic, and science, what use is there for a scapegoat, (yes, its a crude term, Im sorry), such as God?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    Yes, I agree with Verzen and pavlos....it just seems like there are too many choices for a God. I think that it can be easily observed that as science prevails more and more, the idea of god lessens and lessens. Because once something has been proved by common sense, logic, and science, what use is there for a scapegoat, (yes, its a crude term, Im sorry), such as God?
    I am sure you mean "value system" rather than "common sense, logic, and science"
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    God is a fake excuse; that's even much worse !

    ... bla bla. I read from Christians and Muslims ... bla bla ... "not meant that way, they are not the true believers" et cetera. But ! I read death in their Holy Books and I see Blood on ther Hands ! Men who lose their heads whilst 'Allahoe Akbar' is being yelled.

    Christians are exactly the same; they are just a little more sophistocated in killing.

    "In the name of Jezus, our Lord !" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICZ2TkKW9Q [The Right Side Won]

    (Please erase religion ... my dear God ... erase it ... you prick ...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by pavlos

    Prove it if it is a fact :wink:
    Do you think that all the gods of the past and present actually existed?, do you think that none could have been spawned of ignorance?
    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish, and when you read up on some of these gods ( Bumba the god of vomit) or the moon god Tsukiyomi)). You realize how irrational they are, thus they can only be born of ignorance.

    As adults we must put away childish things. But unfortunately two thirds of the worlds adults still hold on to theirs.
    how many thousands of different names for "bananas" do you think there has been in the world for the past 5000 years?

    No more fruit for you I'm afraid .....
    If you're implying that there's an analogy between many names for the same fruit and the many different gods that extant and extinct cultures have had, then this is a logical fallacy -namely a false analogy.

    The only way it would be a good analogy is if these "different names for bananas" also referred to very different and contradictory bananas. Bananas that were red and round, bananas that were orange and round with a rind, bananas that grew up from the ground and were juicy and sour, small red round bananas that grew close to the ground, etc.

    Instead, we have apples, oranges, pineapples and strawberries.

    Not many different names for the same fruit -rather, different names for different fruits.
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    Ummm, Apollyon, r u being a little cryptic, or is that just me? I wasnt really pitching a fight between different religions, you know......
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    how many thousands of different names for "bananas" do you think there has been in the world for the past 5000 years?

    No more fruit for you I'm afraid .....
    If you're implying that there's an analogy between many names for the same fruit and the many different gods that extant and extinct cultures have had, then this is a logical fallacy -namely a false analogy.

    The only way it would be a good analogy is if these "different names for bananas" also referred to very different and contradictory bananas. Bananas that were red and round, bananas that were orange and round with a rind, bananas that grew up from the ground and were juicy and sour, small red round bananas that grew close to the ground, etc.
    If a person surmised all the different accounts of god (especially in the monotheistic sense) and concluded that they were all referring to vastly different and contradictory entities, I would think they were bananas

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    At the end of the day, humanity has had thousands (probably upon thousands) of gods. Many at the same time. Many with different and absurd often contradictory qualities.

    There is no single god concept as far as humanity is concerned unless you disallow any culture's gods but your own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    Ummm, Apollyon, r u being a little cryptic, or is that just me? I wasnt really pitching a fight between different religions, you know......
    Yes, but I am a true atheist and as the title asks : 'Is God being used as an excuse', I fully agree on that. Maybe a little radical, but hť ! Aren't these religious folks being even more radical ?

    A none outspoken post is often overlooked, so I like to be outspoken. The only thing I gain, however, is that people do not look through the actual fonts being used, but just look at the factual way it is written and take it literally.

    God is an excuse for everything; you can not imagine, which excuse they invent to blaim God. Even their own self being here is God to blaim. Well; there is NO excuse for God to have created religious people !
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    Apollyon said:
    Are you truely that ignorant ? [Yes, as I am a Christian]
    Yes, but I am a true atheist
    ???? :? :? :?
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    Religious contradiction.

    When I was living in Fiji there was a local tribe that used to walk barefoot on hot rocks for tourists. They had a legend about a fisherman who caught a god and released him after receiving a promise of ability to be immune to fire - hence walking on hot rocks.

    They are now all fervent Christians. I spoke to one and asked how they could walk barefoot on hot rocks. He told me the legend, with the conclusion that this tribal god gave them the power. I asked him if there was just one God, the Christian God. Fervent response - Yes!! Asked him about his power - given by tribal god. But there is only one God. Oh yes. Of course.

    This guy lived with two totally contradictory beliefs in his head and did not see that there was a contradiction. Pretty much standard for religious types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    At the end of the day, humanity has had thousands (probably upon thousands) of gods. Many at the same time. Many with different and absurd often contradictory qualities.
    just like there are so many weird and wonderful names for the banana, all with differing numbers of syllables and sounds .....

    There is no single god concept as far as humanity is concerned unless you disallow any culture's gods but your own.
    what a no-brainer - how about "creator"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    Religious contradiction.

    When I was living in Fiji there was a local tribe that used to walk barefoot on hot rocks for tourists. They had a legend about a fisherman who caught a god and released him after receiving a promise of ability to be immune to fire - hence walking on hot rocks.

    They are now all fervent Christians. I spoke to one and asked how they could walk barefoot on hot rocks. He told me the legend, with the conclusion that this tribal god gave them the power. I asked him if there was just one God, the Christian God. Fervent response - Yes!! Asked him about his power - given by tribal god. But there is only one God. Oh yes. Of course.

    This guy lived with two totally contradictory beliefs in his head and did not see that there was a contradiction. Pretty much standard for religious types.
    and lemme guess ... this guy in fiji is the summit of theistic critical acclaim?
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  27. #26  
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    Do you think that all the gods of the past and present actually existed?,
    No.

    do you think that none could have been spawned of ignorance?
    Ofcourse not.

    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish
    How does it? Ther is every possibility that out of those thousands of religions all but one are false. Just becasue many seem foolish, does not mean they all are. So common sense it might be, but fact it is not. The fact that some religions have lasted thousands of years where others have dwindled away suggests that some religions are more rational, trustworthy and more applicable than others.

    I wouldn't be so quick to claim that all religions are pretty much the same and therefore can be put aside as ignorance.

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  28. #27 A view from an atheist... 
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    I am an atheist.

    Many religious people say that atheists are ignorant, but I say otherwise.

    I think that God is not an excuse or actually existing, but I do think that God is human created. There are very few (if any) scientific proofs that lead to there being a God involved.

    God, in my view, is a way unhappy people can find a way to find a better place. They are unhappy where they are and "heaven" is the better place where everything is beautiful and lovely fluffy bunnies jump about everywhere *sarcasm*, and "hell" is a land without a God, or in other words, where they are now.

    I do not want to upset anyone, but this is my view on religion.
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    And Man made God in His own image.

    Absolutely. For many reasons. Humans are tribal and have tribal leaders. The Big Banana is the ultimate tribal leader. Humans look to fathers as protectors and providers. If Daddy aint around and someone is needed, hey - fall back on God. Humans are scared. We all gotta die and most people cannot handle that knowledge. Hey - We got the adult Father Christmas (God) to give to all the good little men and women presents when they die. A lot of life is unpleasant and people are weak - we cannot handle all that nastiness so we envisage a God who will solve all our problems.

    Ultimately God is a symptom of human weakness.
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    Ultimately God is a symptom of human weakness.
    I dont know about weakness, but i do think it shows the human preference for a universal solution to anything unexplained.

    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish
    I am a hindu, and i must say, I completely agree with you. Hinduism is an excellent example of why we shouldn't take religion and god seriously. Who wants to believe something that has a millions of different options as solutions......that many choices simply justifies how incredibly doubtful the idea of religion is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkinWalker
    At the end of the day, humanity has had thousands (probably upon thousands) of gods. Many at the same time. Many with different and absurd often contradictory qualities.
    The contradictions between Wolof, Mandingo, and Fulani pronunciation of bananas are also well documented ...



    There is no single god concept as far as humanity is concerned unless you disallow any culture's gods but your own.
    never encountered the categorical connections and distinctions between monotheism, polytheism and animism?

    Where the hell have you been for the past 500 years?
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    There are only three possibilities on this issue:
    1. There is no god.
    2. There is a God.
    3. There is more than one God.

    The simplest approach, contrary to atheistic belief, is possibility No. 1. If this is the case, any other discussion is pointless which is, of course, the easy way to deal with it. It removes from the person any obligation to consider either of the other possibilities other than to pooh-pooh at them and laugh at them.

    The idea that there may be one or more gods, is the complicating factor. It would seem that consensus here among believers and non believers alike is that if there are multiple gods, not all those put forth as gods are really gods.

    But the fact that we can easily eliminate many false gods, does not exclude the possibilities that one or more do actually exist.

    In some of the writing here, it seems that some are saying that because we know A, B, and C, do not exist, it must follow that D-Z do not exist either. This is not a logical conclusion based on that information. By this thinking, when evolution skeptics eliminate some of the possibilities that evolution has advance, we should be allowed to discount all possibilities

    The idea that some of these proposed gods were the result of human invention or the result of superstition or some other human divination, does not preclude the possibility that one or more gods are not the product of human divination.

    tritai for example said:

    Quote:
    If there were only ever one god then my statement of fact would have been foolish, but as theres over 2850+ gods and this is not including the millions of Hindu gods, it kind of makes any belief in a god foolish
    I am a hindu, and i must say, I completely agree with you. Hinduism is an excellent example of why we shouldn't take religion and god seriously. Who wants to believe something that has a millions of different options as solutions......that many choices simply justifies how incredibly doubtful the idea of religion is.
    Both the original quote and tritai's response merely suggest that because the choice is difficult, there is no sense in making a choice. I would say that is the simple way out.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    In some of the writing here, it seems that some are saying that because we know A, B, and C, do not exist, it must follow that D-Z do not exist either. This is not a logical conclusion based on that information. By this thinking, when evolution skeptics eliminate some of the possibilities that evolution has advance, we should be allowed to discount all possibilities
    I don't think it is the same. The basic attributes of the god of the major religions today are exactly the same. These include god's usual attributes, like omnipotence and such. So if we were to be able to know for certain that some of these attributes did not exist or were impossible, it would largely invalidate all of them. The thing is how can you tell whether a god exists or not? People writing about a god does not create him/her or prove his existence, but, similarly, even if those writings contain absurdities one can still not know for sure that the described god does not exist, if you were perfectly honest. This is because of the old adage that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, BUT, it sure does shift the scale in favour of absence if no objective evidence exists, IMO.

    Evolution, on the other hand, has a wealth of evidence to support it. The only thing really in question, among scientists properly qualified to investigate the evidence, are the exact mechanisms of evolution. Conclusively disproving a certain proposed mechanism is actually a good thing, but it does not touch the overarching validity of evolution.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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  34. #33  
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    In my view, if we are considering possible gods, there are several subcategories.

    1. Creator of the universe, or part of the universe.
    2. Concerned with humans or oblivious to humans.
    3. Omnipotent or limited in power.

    The God of the christians clearly is ridiculous. A God that is an omnipotent creator of the universe, who knows everything, and loves every last human is a concept that is incompatible with what we know of the world.

    An omnipotent God who does not give a damn about humans is possible, but depressing. However, such a God should have revealed himself/herself/itself by now, since hiding unlimited power would take a substantial effort, and this God does not give a damn.

    A god that is powerful, but not all powerful may exist. If this being is concerned with humans, we should have firm evidence of his/her/its existence by now, since a being of limited power would not be able to hide.

    Kind of leaves one last category. A less than all powerful god that really is not concerned with humans, and ignores us. We could postulate an extraterrestrial being, whose power is such that it is ranked with gods, but does not come near planet Earth or meddle with humans. If that is the case, the situation for all practical purposes is the same as a universe with no god.
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    Kind of leaves one last category. A less than all powerful god that really is not concerned with humans, and ignores us. We could postulate an extraterrestrial being, whose power is such that it is ranked with gods, but does not come near planet Earth or meddle with humans. If that is the case, the situation for all practical purposes is the same as a universe with no god.
    Right. For one thing, I am tired of hearing religious extremists constantly preach about God's undying love blah blah blah. Well, if God's so damn altruistic, why doesnt he show it? (i.e. world hunger, poverty, diseases, environmental problems) It's just this psychological thing people have going on about how there is a supernatural force in charge of everything that has been, is, and will be. People cant handle the burden of being responsible for things themselves, so they dump it all on someone who is very close to NOT existing?

    Both the original quote and tritai's response merely suggest that because the choice is difficult, there is no sense in making a choice. I would say that is the simple way out.
    Oh, I have made a choice.....until I see some HARDCORE evidence....evidence that CAN NOT be disproved ever, I'm not believing a WORD of this religious crap.
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    I refer to the Christian God as 'The God Who Hides.'

    They have this all powerful, and all loving God, who wants us all to love and worship him/her/it. Yet there is no direct evidence that this God actually exists. If this all powerful, all-loving God wants me to worship him/her/it, the solution is simple. God just has to pop down to Earth to see me; perform a few miracles, and change the world in a substantial, beneficial, and miraculous way, and leave me his/her/its business card, and I will promise worship to the day I die.

    Hasn't happened, yet and I am convinced it will never happen. The effort required by an all powerful God is trivial, and the result is one that all Christians claim is God's greatest wish. Instead, God hides. This does not compute.
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    KALSTER said:

    The basic attributes of the god of the major religions today are exactly the same. These include god's usual attributes, like omnipotence and such.
    I'm not sure what you think this indicates. If many religions ascribe similar attribute to their God, perhaps it is because those are actually attributes of God. I don't know if this qualifies or disqualifies any particular god, other than to suggest that if there is only one god, he likely would have such qualities. That being a possible conclusion, then the differences would probably be better indicators.

    skeptic said:


    The God of the christians clearly is ridiculous. A God that is an omnipotent creator of the universe, who knows everything, and loves every last human is a concept that is incompatible with what we know of the world.
    An omnipotent God who does not give a damn about humans is possible, but depressing. However, such a God should have revealed himself/herself/itself by now, since hiding unlimited power would take a substantial effort, and this God does not give a damn.
    My bet is that skeptic would one of the first ones to complain about being a puppet in the hands of a god who does not permit free will or allows free will, but countermands any evil decisions. If you want a perfect situation, then maybe you should consider how you get to heaven where there is no evil.
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    tritai said:

    Oh, I have made a choice
    But you seek a god who would deprive you of that choice.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    I'm not sure what you think this indicates.
    Not that much really. If you were to go about inventing a god you'd almost automatically attach those attributes to him/her/it, especially if this god was to be the source of everything that is good and provide all kinds of functions, like being a comfort blanket, punisher of those that oppose you, source of power, inspiration and justification in war, an internal and external way to promote yourself as a good and stand-up guy, provide a means for unity in trying times, a tool for control, etc, etc. Such a god has limitless possibilities. If he really existed, then the way he has been used and portrayed would also make sense and he would not be a true god if he did not have such powers. An underpowered god is indistinguishable from an advanced alien IMO, so to be a real effectual god he would be required to have those attributes. Mind, I am talking about power, not his emotional disposition. A true and evil god could also have all the required powers.
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    But you seek a god who would deprive you of that choice.

    It's not a question of "seeking" a god to disprove my own words. I'm just saying that unless and until there is a veritable conclusion to this quandary, I'm going with the more reasonable option: science.


    Both the original quote and tritai's response merely suggest that because the choice is difficult, there is no sense in making a choice.
    Ah, even in the most difficult of times, one should always have a ready answer. To answer my own initial question, I believe god is an excuse......unless of course he lives in the ultimate dimension where space and time have no meaning ,(aka Heaven), and simply chooses not to trifle in the lives of human beings.
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    tritai said:

    and simply chooses not to trifle in the lives of human beings.

    Ahh, but He does trifle in the lives of human beings. He just does not trifle in the way you would have him trifle. Thus, if God does actually exist, you attempt to set yourself up as superior to God. For your sake, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    tritai said:

    Oh, I have made a choice
    But you seek a god who would deprive you of that choice.
    how does this statement,
    "Oh, I have made a choice.....until I see some HARDCORE evidence....evidence that CAN NOT be disproved ever, I'm not believing a WORD of this religious crap" suggest he is seeking a god, quite the opposite I think.
    Quote Originally Posted by daytonturner
    tritai said:

    and simply chooses not to trifle in the lives of human beings.

    Ahh, but He does trifle in the lives of human beings. He just does not trifle in the way you would have him trifle. Thus, if God does actually exist, you attempt to set yourself up as superior to God. For your sake, I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.
    It seem you have a hard time grasping what Tritai is saying. Why would you think he wasn't superior to a concept, and lets face it, it's just a concept without one iota of unequivocal evidence that any god/gods exists, it cannot be deemed anything else.
    This god of yours cannot explain all that exists, because your god cannot be explained.
    A logician saves the life of a tiny space alien. The alien is very grateful and, since she's omniscient, offers the following reward: she offers to answer any question the logician might pose. Without too much thought (after all, he's a logician), he asks: "What is the best question to ask and what is the correct answer to that question?" The tiny alien pauses. Finally she replies, "The best question is the one you just asked; and the correct answer is the one I gave."
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    National Geographic Society usually provides interesting researches.

    The people who take the Bible literally are narrow-minded.

    The people who think that the people who believe in God have a pathetic life are also narrow-minded.
    We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
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    daytonturner said
    "My bet is that skeptic would one of the first ones to complain about being a puppet in the hands of a god who does not permit free will or allows free will, but countermands any evil decisions."

    That is not what I suggested. My suggestion was that, if the Chrstian God really loves us all, and want us to worship Him/Her/It, while being all powerful, it makes far more sense for said God to reveal itself and show the reality of its existence.

    No suggestion of making anyone puppets. Simply a question. Why does God hide?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    daytonturner said
    "My bet is that skeptic would one of the first ones to complain about being a puppet in the hands of a god who does not permit free will or allows free will, but countermands any evil decisions."

    That is not what I suggested. My suggestion was that, if the Chrstian God really loves us all, and want us to worship Him/Her/It, while being all powerful, it makes far more sense for said God to reveal itself and show the reality of its existence.

    No suggestion of making anyone puppets. Simply a question. Why does God hide?
    He hides?
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    God certainly hides from me! I am agnostic, but open minded. If the Christian God exists, and is all powerful and wants me to love and worship him, why the heck does he not do something about it? Real easy. An All Powerful God can readily make himself known to me, with suitable miracles, so that my doubt is totally put aside. I promise to worship Him till the day I die if he deigns to do this.

    However, I know this will not happen. If God exists, that god is not all powerful, or all loving, or necessarily even interested in humanity, let alone little old me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    georginho

    God certainly hides from me! I am agnostic, but open minded. If the Christian God exists, and is all powerful and wants me to love and worship him, why the heck does he not do something about it? Real easy. An All Powerful God can readily make himself known to me, with suitable miracles, so that my doubt is totally put aside. I promise to worship Him till the day I die if he deigns to do this.

    However, I know this will not happen. If God exists, that god is not all powerful, or all loving, or necessarily even interested in humanity, let alone little old me.
    See? That is my point. You don't know if He exists, yet you asked why He hides.
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    To georginho

    Let me rephrase.

    IF God exists, and is similar to the Christian God, then why does He/She/It hide?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    To georginho

    Let me rephrase.

    IF God exists, and is similar to the Christian God, then why does He/She/It hide?
    Nah ... I'm Rome Catholic myself and for me, He doesn't hide.

    There are too many things in this world that we can't explain scientifically. (And some will say: Just because of this, we have to believe that He exists? No ... no ... we don't have to. Everyone has a different point of view about this world.) He doesn't hide; He's everywhere. I've experienced it myself.
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    There are too many things in this world that we can't explain scientifically. (And some will say: Just because of this, we have to believe that He exists? No ... no ... we don't have to. Everyone has a different point of view about this world.) He doesn't hide; He's everywhere. I've experienced it myself.
    Examples, please?
    So what you're saying is that its your point of view that he's everywhere?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    There are too many things in this world that we can't explain scientifically. (And some will say: Just because of this, we have to believe that He exists? No ... no ... we don't have to. Everyone has a different point of view about this world.) He doesn't hide; He's everywhere. I've experienced it myself.
    Examples, please?
    So what you're saying is that its your point of view that he's everywhere?
    Actually, I don't want to give you examples because I'll get the same replies again and again. You know, I can't be annoyed with it. But because you may persist, I know an American man who can make a woman who has to sit in a wheelchair stand again with just a prayer.

    No, you don't believe. I know it.
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    I'm genuinely asking (without cynicism, i promise), but this guy can really make her stand up from her wheelchair with just a prayer, and then she just falls back again, completely immobile as before?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    I'm genuinely asking (without cynicism, i promise), but this guy can really make her stand up from her wheelchair with just a prayer, and then she just falls back again, completely immobile as before?

    Of course not.
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    okkk.........do you REALLY believe in God? Or have you been tricking me this whole time?

    :x (suspicious, not mad)
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    okkk.........do you REALLY believe in God? Or have you been tricking me this whole time?

    :x (suspicious, not mad)
    I do believe in God, yeah. But I don't want to tell people to believe in Him. I let people walk on their own way because on the road they will discover things that they may not have known before.
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    I do believe in God, yeah. But I don't want to tell people to believe in Him. I let people walk on their own way because on the road they will discover things that they may not have known before.
    I see. That is admirable of you not to force others to comply with your own thoughts and ideas. But what ould you do if you were to meet someone who vehemently argued with you on the basis of God's existence? Would you not lash out?

    *Please do not take the above as any threat or implication coming from me....I am just posing a plausible situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    I do believe in God, yeah. But I don't want to tell people to believe in Him. I let people walk on their own way because on the road they will discover things that they may not have known before.
    I see. That is admirable of you not to force others to comply with your own thoughts and ideas. But what ould you do if you were to meet someone who vehemently argued with you on the basis of God's existence? Would you not lash out?

    *Please do not take the above as any threat or implication coming from me....I am just posing a plausible situation.
    It's also good to meet someone who isn't ignorant.

    Generally, the person in your question, you, I and the others can't argue about this vehemently. As I said above, the people who don't believe that God exists simply don't have any explanation for everything that happens around us. However, the people who fundamentally believe that God exists simply don't know that everything may be explained scientifically.
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    It's also good to meet someone who isn't ignorant.
    Thanks. Ha ha, well it seems like we are the only two active ones in this thread...hellooooo, anyone ELSE alive?? :-D


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    So people, what are your views on the movie: The God Who Wasn't There ?
    A load of bullocks, or a promising advancement in the field of religious skepicism?

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    to tritai

    I am still awake. Just bouncing from task to task, most of which are work related. sighhhh

    My question about a God who hides has still not been answered. I am a person who requires good evidence before I believe something. I am quite happy to believe in God, or even a Christian God, but need the evidence. So why does God not make the effort (trivial to Him) to show me the evidence? Why does He hide?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic
    In my view, if we are considering possible gods, there are several subcategories.

    1. Creator of the universe, or part of the universe.
    2. Concerned with humans or oblivious to humans.
    3. Omnipotent or limited in power.

    The God of the christians clearly is ridiculous. A God that is an omnipotent creator of the universe, who knows everything, and loves every last human is a concept that is incompatible with what we know of the world.
    only if you accept that this is the best of all possible worlds
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    I personally would not say that god was an excuse, it is just wishful thinking on the part of the believer, they are victims of indoctrination. Gods were used to answer the unanswerable when man was not as advanced as he is today. No doubt in the future man will really on his belief in gods even less, for life's quandaries
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I personally would not say that god was an excuse, it is just wishful thinking on the part of the believer, they are victims of indoctrination. Gods were used to answer the unanswerable when man was not as advanced as he is today. No doubt in the future man will really on his belief in gods even less, for life's quandaries
    in what ways are we in less of quandary due to modern advancement?

    death, old age and disease are still pulling in a rip roaring business ....

    Seems like it is you who are a victim of indoctrination
    :?
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    I have a question:

    If God exists, how can he "live" with himself after watching the millions on Earth suffer, (poverty, destitution, untimely death, etc. etc.)?

    No offense to anyone when I say this, but doesn't the existence of all these issues qualify God as a bit of a barbarian? (Totally crude word, but its the best I can think of at the moment...sorry!)

    If God really wanted to be loved by all, wouldnt he have remedied these issues a long time ago to prove his worth to us suspicious and cynical humans?

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    tritai asks:

    If God exists, how can he "live" with himself after watching the millions on Earth suffer, (poverty, destitution, untimely death, etc. etc.)?
    This is a legitimate question and one which even believers contemplate from time to time.

    Let's separate this into two kinds of problems. First are problems that occur because of natural disasters. Second would be disasters which are man-caused.

    Natural disasters: Probably the worst of these are earthquakes, including tsunamis cause by ocean floor earth quakes. These things are caused by the shifting of tectonic plates. One must decide if we have benefited more from this than we would have benefited had the land mass of Earth remained one solid continent as when it started. Maybe one could complain that such movement could be accomplished without quakes. But then, maybe not. The other kind of natural disasters are weather related (including lightning caused fires) such as floods, tornadoes, hurricanes, drought, climate cycles. Well, these things are a parts of what makes our planet work. It is possible that without these things, our planet Earth would not be able to sustain life and diversity as we know it. I don't know, but it is possible that without the circumstances which cause these things, the Earth would be a worse place. I mean, do you know for sure that the world would be better if nature was different? This may be the very best it can be to maintain life.

    Man-made problems are numerous and are the result of improper choices made by humans. I think these are avoidable. However, I do not think it is up to God to protect us from ourselves unless He decides to do away with free will.

    God, in granting humans free will, allows wrong choices and decisions and they usually ultimately lead to some counter-productive outcome. So, we sort of have a choice of living in a world with our free will, suffering the resulting instances of counter-productive results or we can be puppets in a non-moral world.

    There is just no guarantee that a world without natural disasters and free will caused problems could even survive. It is possible that the way the world is today strikes the best balance between good and bad that can be achieved and still maintain a modicum of tolerability for the life it sustains.
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    Quote Originally Posted by verzen
    Sox - It's common sense.

    The greeks looked up and saw lightning. They were marveled at this unique phenomena. Only a being of immense power could do such a thing. (Remember. The greeks believed in fairy tails such as minotaurs and gryphons)
    Fairytales dont make me question who I am.
    Fairytales surly are not as bloody and stained with past events.
    Sometimes I wish the Bible was a Fairytale because I when I die, I would simply crawl into a dirt pit and forget it.
    Like a magnet, we remembered what the Greeks saw and what they felt, Like a magnet we also remember other parts of history.
    Its common sense.
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    It is possible to rationalise around a lot of deity belief problems, but never all of them. I agree that the world needs tectonic activity to remain habitable. Geological activity renews soils, re-introduces fertility, traps carbon etc.

    However, there are a lot of human hurts that cannot be ascribed to improving the world or allowing free will. If an innocent young child dies in agony from leukemia or other disease, that is not free will in action. If there is an all powerful God permitting this to happen, then that god is not loving or kind. Either God is not all powerful, or God is not good. You cannot have both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I personally would not say that god was an excuse, it is just wishful thinking on the part of the believer, they are victims of indoctrination. Gods were used to answer the unanswerable when man was not as advanced as he is today. No doubt in the future man will rely on his belief in gods even less, for life's quandaries
    in what ways are we in less of quandary due to modern advancement?
    If you don't know, well there's no helping you.
    Unless you've just traveled here from the first century that is.
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    personally I think that the God and the religion is just a one way to control big number of people...
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    tritai said:

    However, there are a lot of human hurts that cannot be ascribed to improving the world or allowing free will. If an innocent young child dies in agony from leukemia or other disease, that is not free will in action. If there is an all powerful God permitting this to happen, then that god is not loving or kind. Either God is not all powerful, or God is not good. You cannot have both.
    I must agree with you that this is a perplexing question and one which requires one to back into the position that he trusts God and that these things which seem cruel and painful are necessary for the overall survival of life on Earth. Your assumption is that if God existed, things would be better than they now are.

    Certainly, we can understand that there are beneficial bacteria and viruses as well as those which can be a problem. This is true throughout the plant and animal kingdoms. Some plants and animals are beneficial and some are not.

    Even if you believe in evolution, you must consider that humans have evolved in such a way that they have devised ways to protect themselves from the evolutions of other animals and plants which work to their detriment.

    Thus, what you seem to expect of God is a system of micro-management in which He weeds out all the changes detrimental to mankind. But who knows but what removing that capacity would also remove the capacity for changes which are advantageous? Who's to say that what is perhaps directly detrimental to mankind is not, in some way, beneficial to something that is directly beneficial to mankind?

    Certainly, this is, as you say, a rationalization. But how one thinks about this is really dependent on one's concept of God.

    Personally, I think the world is right now the way it would be with or without God. If God does not exist, then things are the way they are because that is the only way they can be. If God exists and is in charge, then things are the way they are because that is the way they must be for His creation to exist. This is why logic can never determine the existence or non-existence of God. Circumstances are what they are regardless of whether or not God is in control.

    When it comes to diseases such as cancers, we have to shoulder at least some of the blame as we unwittingly produce many of the things which end up being carcinogens as well as directly and indirectly causing other diseases. Without God, it seems that we are in a race to determine whether we can destroy ourselves or some other thing can destroy us before we figure out how to save ourselves.

    There just seems to me to be a paradox in the thinking which says, God does not exist and the reason I don't believe in God is because if He were in charge, things would be different. But then, those same people turn around and put their confidence in mankind which they must now readily admit are complicit in the way things are. In that vein, if we consider that things are worse now than they were back then (whenever), we must also consider that we lack the capacity to make things better. If we consider that God is in control, perhaps we must concede that things are not as bad as they would be without a God who maintains the proper balance.

    No matter what your starting point is -- God exists; God does not exist -- we have no way of determining that things would be better or worse if the other position were the case. I'm not convinced this is a reasonable rationalization for not believing in God.
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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  70. #69  
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    As I said earlier, I am agnostic, meaning I try to keep an open mind. However, having said that, I cannot see the Christian version of God as making sense. Perhaps some kind of god exists, but is quite different. Not all powerful, or perhaps not too worried about human welfare.

    You mentioned cancers. You may be interested to know that the majority of causes of cancer are, in fact, natural. You could call them Acts of God. Any smoke contains carcinogens, including natural fires. Lots of foods contain carcinogens. Moulds that grow on foods make carcinogens. Natural background radiation is cancer causing. If you live near granite rock, the background radioacticity may be 100 times more potent. Radon gas, which builds up in natural caves, and anything made of rock, is carcinogenic, causing lung cancer. All these can be blamed on God.
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  71. #70  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I personally would not say that god was an excuse, it is just wishful thinking on the part of the believer, they are victims of indoctrination. Gods were used to answer the unanswerable when man was not as advanced as he is today. No doubt in the future man will rely on his belief in gods even less, for life's quandaries
    in what ways are we in less of quandary due to modern advancement?
    If you don't know, well there's no helping you.
    Unless you've just traveled here from the first century that is.
    to reiterate, death, old age and disease are still pulling in a rip roaring business ....
    Unless you've just been on a star trek marathon or something
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mascha
    personally I think that the God and the religion is just a one way to control big number of people...
    If something is determined as a substantial force (even in terms of politics) it is characterized by having the ability to control people.

    A god that didn't have the capacity to control people would be more absurd than a government without the capacity to maintain a stable economy
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  73. #72  
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    punarmusiko said:

    A god that didn't have the capacity to control people would be more absurd than a government without the capacity to maintain a stable economy
    Hey, you got something against the U.S. gumment? LOL
    Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. -- Albert Einstein

    If God DID do all of this, is He not the greatest scientist of all? -- dt, 2005
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    God, in granting humans free will, allows wrong choices and decisions and they usually ultimately lead to some counter-productive outcome. So, we sort of have a choice of living in a world with our free will, suffering the resulting instances of counter-productive results or we can be puppets in a non-moral world.

    GOD IS A SADIST?!?!?!?!

    And didnt Karl Marx say, "Religion is the opiate of the masses"? Well, wouldnt that mean that hes saying that people are addicted to religion because of the instantaneous relief it brings, but then it also muddles some of the people's views on things too?
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  75. #74  
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    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    I personally would not say that god was an excuse, it is just wishful thinking on the part of the believer, they are victims of indoctrination. Gods were used to answer the unanswerable when man was not as advanced as he is today. No doubt in the future man will rely on his belief in gods even less, for life's quandaries
    in what ways are we in less of quandary due to modern advancement?
    If you don't know, well there's no helping you.
    Unless you've just traveled here from the first century that is.
    to reiterate, death, old age and disease are still pulling in a rip roaring business
    There are some diseases, that are still considered a quandary, however in the future we shall find cures.
    I don't consider life and old age quandaries, although we may also cure oldage in the future.
    "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense - Buddha"
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  76. #75 Re: IS GOD AN EXCUSE? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by tritai
    Before you guys attack me and rip off my head, I'd like to say in self-defense that this is just natural curiosity in what YOU guys have to say. What i mean is, im just asking you all, "Is God an excuse that people nonchalantly use to provide explanations for whatever happens in their lives?" Is it sort of like people are pointing their fingers at God for everything going on?

    What do you guys think? God=a true being.....or god=excuse?




    I do not wish to offend anyone, so if I did, please let me know, so i can personally apologize. Thanks.

    Well, some murderers blame their crime on god . Ha ha.
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by geezer
    Quote Originally Posted by punarmusiko
    to reiterate, death, old age and disease are still pulling in a rip roaring business
    There are some diseases, that are still considered a quandary,
    hence disease still does a roaring trade

    however in the future we shall find cures.
    to which there will be new diseases ...

    I don't consider life and old age quandaries,
    old age is a quandary because it affects life in drastic ways

    although we may also cure oldage in the future.
    captain kirk has a lot to answer for ....
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