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Thread: Jewish question. Can the temple be built, ready for shipment

  1. #1 Jewish question. Can the temple be built, ready for shipment 
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    Jewish question. Can the temple be built, ready for shipment? Prefab that is.

    This is one of those, I understand the situation but I fail to see the problem things.

    Many disputes stem from interpretation of words and how they are used. I submit for your laughter or, just thinking, what if it, you know, could be done, it might just call the Greatest God down.

    What are the terms of the building of the temple and could God be served with a temple that is built but not quite on site yet. Is there any flexibility in what Jews believe on the wording or have I just insulted some.

    Where I come from, many homes and structures are pre-fabricated or factory built for erection at a future site.

    Does your interpretation of wording allow for the Temple to be built and later moved to where ever you want or does it have to be erected on site?

    Not to insult, just one of my weirder contemplations.

    Regards
    DL


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  3. #2  
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    Wtf??? You cannot seriously be asking this question???



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    Quote Originally Posted by sox
    Wtf??? You cannot seriously be asking this question???
    I am learning more of their faith. Not as I had thought.

    They wait for God to build His own Temple. I thought it was they who had to prepare a home.

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    Well.. there's this arabic golden dome thingy sitting on top of the only
    place God has allowed the Jewish people to build teh new temple and they can't
    raze it cause of obvious reasons... so all are waiting for an earthquake or some
    radicals to blow this dome so the temple will be built.
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    Would someone who has proper command of the english language like to explain what Greatest I am is talking about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sox
    Would someone who has proper command of the english language like to explain what Greatest I am is talking about?
    Je peut te le dire en francais.

    What is it you do not understand?

    I was asking for the right wording on the rebuilding of the temple and wondered if it was rebuilt and ready to erect if that was being true to whatever gospel the Jews read.

    Simple enough I hope.

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    Much better english! Much appreciated!

    Is this a temple that is being built now? Or are you referring to some prophecy in the bible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sox
    Much better english! Much appreciated!

    Is this a temple that is being built now? Or are you referring to some prophecy in the bible?
    Jewish prophesy as far as I know.

    Why else would a temple be important to them?

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    um... actually.. why is this temple is so imporatant to them? anyone care to elaborate??
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    I am not Jewish (I'm not even religious) but I thought this an interesting question so I have gone and researched it. If you know better than this then please feel free to say so.

    In order to understand the importance of the temple, you need first to understand the Jewish nation and their mission.

    The Jewish concept of God is that of Creator, Sustainer and Supervisor, which means not a God who created the world and then went on vacation to Miami, but an infinite Being who is actively involved in creation.

    Everything in the universe is under God's control - everything, the implication of which is that if God knows and controls everything, then history is a controlled process leading to a destination. Since God is the cosmic scriptwriter, director and producer, the events of human history are not random; this is a story with a plot; we're headed for a specific destination; there is a finish line.

    One of the fundamental ideas in Judaism is that God created man to give him the ultimate gift: a relationship with God. Connecting to God is the ultimate form of relationship and what man's soul ultimately yearns for. Every pleasure man can experience and every meaningful relationship man can have in this world is just a small taste of the ultimate relationship of his soul with his creator.

    That is what the Garden of Eden is all about. It is not some kind of tropical Club Med. Rather it is the ideal physical-spiritual reality where human beings are freed from all the things that distract them: bills, shopping, carpools etc. and where they are totally focused on achieving the purpose of creation: elevating themselves and the world around them to the highest possible relationship with God.

    From this perspective, human history should have been very straightforward: God places man in a perfect environment where he is free to do what he was created for, hanging out in the Garden, perfecting creation and building a perfect relationship with God.

    Unfortunately, something went badly wrong. Beginning with Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of knowledge, the relationship began to fall apart. Humanity found it too difficult to maintain a relationship with an invisible God. People felt that showing respect to the various visible forces of nature, created by God, would be the way to indirectly show respect to God Himself. What happened however was that within a few generations worship of God was replaced by worship of nature: the sun, the moon the trees, etc., God was forgotten and idol worship was practiced by all. The whole purpose of creation was lost.

    Then we get the story of the Flood. God decided to "clean out" the world, sparing only Noah (who, alone, maintained a relationship with God). The hope was that Noah would re-populate the world and rebuild the relationship. It doesn't work and humanity continues to decline until the Tower of Babel. The focus of that story is humanity united for all the wrong reasons: to rebel against God.

    By this point things are not going well for humanity. It looks as if God will have no choice but to destroy the world and start again from scratch. But when all seems lost along comes one man who changed the course of history, Abraham.

    Abraham is 75 when we first meet him but he has spent his whole life believing in just one God. He doesn't care what anyone else thinks, he dedicates himself to bringing humanity back to the purpose of creation, back to a relationship with God. He was even willing to give his life for God because Abraham understood that without this relationship with God humanity is doomed.

    Then Abraham says to God: "I choose to live with the reality of you and to bring all of humanity back to that reality." God then says to Abraham: "Then I choose you, and your descendants" which is where we get the idea of the "Chosen People" from.

    God also promises Abraham and his descendants a land for them if they pursue their mission, and this is where we get the idea of the "Promised Land".

    What are the Jewish people chosen for? In Hebrew the term is Tikkun Olam, "Fix the World." It is the ultimate cause - to bring humanity back to the purpose of creation and create the most spiritually and morally perfect world possible. This is the national mission of the Jewish people, to save humanity, not just themselves but all of us.

    Wind the clock forward till we get Moses up Mount Sinai for forty days communing with God and learning the Oral Law. Moses comes down with the ten commandments and finds the people worshipping the Golden calf. Boy is Moses mad, he breaks the tablets with the ten commandments on them and smashes up the calf and executes those responsible and then he goes back up the mountain for another forty days. When he comes down with another set of ten commandments God tells Moses he will live among the Jews, but they have to build him a sanctuary.

    The sanctuary consisted of a large tent - called a "Tent of the Meeting" or Tabernacle - surrounded by a courtyard. Inside the courtyard was an altar where sacrifices were offered. In the tent were two rooms. The outer room held a seven-branched candelabra, a table with twelve loaves of bread on it, and an incense altar. The inner - called the Holy of Holies - held the Ark of the Covenant.

    Inside the Ark were the two sets of the Ten Commandments - the broken set inscribed by God, and the second set inscribed by Moses.

    The whole structure - called the Mishkan in Hebrew - was not a portable synagogue or a museum. It was a tool to be used by the Jewish people individually and as a nation, to connect to God, to achieve their mission.

    It's not like a Christian church which is for an individual to commune with God (albeit in company with others). The Mishkan is where the Jewish nation commune with God to achieve their historic mission in accordance with the covenant that Abraham made with God.

    When it was completed, the "clouds of glory" - a manifestation of God's infinite presence called the Shechina - would literally rest on the sanctuary as a tangible sign that God was with the Jewish people.

    The Jews carried this sanctuary around with them in their wanderings in the desert for 40 years. For 440 years after they entered the land of Israel, but before they conquered Jerusalem, they assembled it in four different locations. After David became king and made Jerusalem his capital, he planned to build a permanent structure just outside the city, atop Mount Moriah where Abraham had offered Isaac as a sacrifice to God and where Jacob had dreamt of a ladder to heaven. For various reasons this never happened.

    Finally, in 832 BC, Jacob's son King Solomon built the first Temple there, and it became the permanent sanctuary until it was destroyed by the Babylonians in 422 BC. At this time the Ark of the Covenant disappeared never to be seen again.

    Seventy years after the first destruction and exile, the Jews returned and the Temple was rebuilt and then again destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE, never to be rebuilt again.

    The loss of the Temple therefore means that the Jewish nation have lost both their tangible sign that God is with them, and their ability to relate to God and fulfill their historic mission as a light to the nations of the world. So, from the Jewish perspective, it is a tragedy not just for them, but for all of us.
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    aye, very elaborate post indeed, thanks

    One thing I don't get.. as the Jewish people should be spiritual people and not material..
    Why can't they show their love for God and "execute their mission" without a physical... building :? ??

    imo it's they're just lazy... or not "chosen" anymore(even in their opinion.
    Although; ego is not something to leave un-noted)..
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    I spoke with a Jew and was told that they wait for God to return as a prophet to them before they rebuild the temple. I thought it should have been the other way around. Build it and he shall come sort of.

    In your research, would you have seen anything on this?

    Regards
    DL
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    In order to understand this we first need to understand something about Jewish character. It is common for one group of people to blame some other group of people when things go wrong. The Irish blame the English for the potato famine, the Scots blame the English for the Jacobean revolt, the English blame the Scots for the Glencoe massacre, and so on. I'm sure you can think of examples from your own country, wherever you happen to be. The Jews don't do that; the Jews blame themselves.

    The Jews have a Covenant with God that they will bring humanity back to the Garden of Eden, and in return God looks after them. So although it was the Romans who destroyed the Temple, the Jews don't blame the Romans. From a Jewish pespective the Romans destroyed the Temple because God willed it to happen, because the Jews had done something to displease God; it was their own fault.

    A big thing in Judaism is the idea that no man is an island. No man can just act on his own but must consider the consequences of his actions not just for him, but for his community and for the Jewish people. So all Jews are supposed to get on with each other, be considerate of each other, and respect each other regardless of their differences.

    The Temple was destroyed because (from the Jewish perspective) they did not do this, and you only have to read the newspapers or watch the international news on television to see how close they are to achieving this any time soon. When they do achieve this, they will be able to re-establish their relationship with God and then it will be God's will that the Temple be rebuilt just as it was God's will that the Temple be destroyed. So we have to have Torah first, then the Temple will come.

    It needs to be a physical Temple because it is a tool for the whole nation to use to establish and build their special relationship with God. Individual Jews can pray in the synagogue, the Jewish nation prays in the Temple (I don't mean literally, but that is a good way to think of it), and you can't talk to God using a virtual mobile phone, you need the real thing, that is why God gave them very explicit instruction on how to build the Temple. If all that was required was for them to join together in some field the construction details would not have been required.

    Incidentally, the implication that the Jews are not a spiritual people is more than just a little off the mark. There is no other religion that I know of that says, even if you do not believe in my God, even if you do not believe in any God, even if you are the wickedest most vile immoral person in the history of human evil, when the time comes you will come with us into the Garden of Eden.

    Christinity says: Believe this or when you die you go to hell.
    Islam says: Believe this or you are an infidel and must die now.

    Judaism doesn't even have hell. They have the Garden of Eden and it's open for everyone, whether you believe it or not (which, incidentally is a good thing to know when atheists start spouting Sam Harris at you, but we can come back to that some other time).
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    Thanks for this. I spoke with another elsewhere in some depth and indicated respect for his perspective.

    I find it intersting and will continue to chat and think.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    numbers

    Thanks for this. I spoke with another elsewhere in some depth and indicated respect for his perspective.

    I find it intersting and will continue to chat and think.

    Regards
    DL
    Thinking is a good start!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    numbers

    Thanks for this. I spoke with another elsewhere in some depth and indicated respect for his perspective.

    I find it intersting and will continue to chat and think.

    Regards
    DL
    Thinking is a good start!
    What would Jews think of a modern day prophet?
    Do they laugh as loudly as all others?
    Is the God they wait for allowed one?

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Thinking is a good start!
    But thinking is something that your posts in this forum are beginning to display a great absence of. If you cannot contribute anything thoughtful to a discussion can you refrain from making insults that make no positive contribution to the discussion at all?
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Thinking is a good start!
    But thinking is something that your posts in this forum are beginning to display a great absence of. If you cannot contribute anything thoughtful to a discussion can you refrain from making insults that make no positive contribution to the discussion at all?
    Actually Mckain....when I do bother contributing and spend time writing up my ideas all I get back is abuse and severe demonstrations of ignorance.

    I know that's because the abusers feel threatened because their minds cannot comprehend anything further than the ends of their noses.

    They hate the fact that someone (a woman no less) might know a little more about a subject than they do.

    This forum seems to be crawling with such people who are only here to flatter themselves.

    Now if i insulted you back you would grizzle, but it is ok for you to insult others?

    Yet another mod who practices double standards and is a hypocrite.

    What's new!

    Green doesn't suit you Mckain, try yellow, that's much more your colour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Actually Mckain....when I do bother contributing and spend time writing up my ideas all I get back is abuse and severe demonstrations of ignorance.

    I know that's because the abusers feel threatened because their minds cannot comprehend anything further than the ends of their noses.

    They hate the fact that someone (a woman no less) might know a little more about a subject than they do.

    This forum seems to be crawling with such people who are only here to flatter themselves.

    Now if i insulted you back you would grizzle, but it is ok for you to insult others?

    Yet another mod who practices double standards and is a hypocrite.

    What's new!

    Green doesn't suit you Mckain, try yellow, that's much more your colour.
    LOL I can put up with this forever. You are less than a mosquito to me. But the other mods are likely to step in and swat you. That is just the way it is.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Actually Mckain....when I do bother contributing and spend time writing up my ideas all I get back is abuse and severe demonstrations of ignorance.

    I know that's because the abusers feel threatened because their minds cannot comprehend anything further than the ends of their noses.

    They hate the fact that someone (a woman no less) might know a little more about a subject than they do.

    This forum seems to be crawling with such people who are only here to flatter themselves.

    Now if i insulted you back you would grizzle, but it is ok for you to insult others?

    Yet another mod who practices double standards and is a hypocrite.

    What's new!

    Green doesn't suit you Mckain, try yellow, that's much more your colour.
    LOL I can put up with this forever. You are less than a mosquito to me. But the other mods are likely to step in and swat you. That is just the way it is.


    Thank you Mckain, you can always be trusted to give me a good belly laugh.
    Absum! has never been bored in her life, but is becoming increasingly bored of the Science Forum! :?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!


    Thank you Mckain, you can always be trusted to give me a good belly laugh.
    My pleasure. I am happy to bring joy to the world. This is much preferable to the alternative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by Absum!
    Thinking is a good start!
    But thinking is something that your posts in this forum are beginning to display a great absence of. If you cannot contribute anything thoughtful to a discussion can you refrain from making insults that make no positive contribution to the discussion at all?
    Actually Mckain....when I do bother contributing and spend time writing up my ideas all I get back is abuse and severe demonstrations of ignorance.

    I know that's because the abusers feel threatened because their minds cannot comprehend anything further than the ends of their noses.

    They hate the fact that someone (a woman no less) might know a little more about a subject than they do.

    This forum seems to be crawling with such people who are only here to flatter themselves.

    Now if i insulted you back you would grizzle, but it is ok for you to insult others?

    Yet another mod who practices double standards and is a hypocrite.

    What's new!

    Green doesn't suit you Mckain, try yellow, that's much more your colour.
    What?!

    There are no ganders in forums! just users and their posts.
    And flattering oneself is practiced mostly offline.. on the internet, social
    achievements are just flat, and tasteless...
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    Back to the topic..

    numbers:

    From my experiance with the Jewish people I came to notice that they are relying
    on physical items (such as talit, this boxy thingy, hand wrapphings, velvet casings,
    mini tehelim books(I still don't get it..), silver wear special clothing and accessories.. and many
    many more!)..

    Why does the "chosen people of God" rely on so many items to satisfy their religious needs?!

    It all comes to the bottom line that rich Jews can serve God "better" than ones with less wealth..

    .
    .

    Let alone all this.. in my experiance I notice the strong unacceptence(hate) of the jews
    for anything which is unconventional to Judeism(seeing people not eating cosher,
    driving at yom kipur(and at some regions even in Sabbath!), no fasting in yom kipur,
    seeing women dressing freely, getting visited by outsiders, and much MUCH more)...
    These things even to gang and even mob attack on "not pure Jewish groups"(outsiders).

    The most extreme cases come from the aurthodox Jewish groups.


    I can't see how these people can have such a peaceful goal... :?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    Back to the topic..

    numbers:

    From my experiance with the Jewish people I came to notice that they are relying
    on physical items (such as talit, this boxy thingy, hand wrapphings, velvet casings,
    mini tehelim books(I still don't get it..), silver wear special clothing and accessories.. and many
    many more!)..

    Why does the "chosen people of God" rely on so many items to satisfy their religious needs?!

    It all comes to the bottom line that rich Jews can serve God "better" than ones with less wealth..

    .
    .

    Let alone all this.. in my experiance I notice the strong unacceptence(hate) of the jews
    for anything which is unconventional to Judeism(seeing people not eating cosher,
    driving at yom kipur(and at some regions even in Sabbath!), no fasting in yom kipur,
    seeing women dressing freely, getting visited by outsiders, and much MUCH more)...
    These things even to gang and even mob attack on "not pure Jewish groups"(outsiders).

    The most extreme cases come from the aurthodox Jewish groups.


    I can't see how these people can have such a peaceful goal... :?
    These are just Church customs and fashions. They come and go. Shrug.

    To God they are without meaning. Only idols. People do need labels though. All peoples.

    Regards
    DL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    From my experiance with the Jewish people I came to notice that they are relying on physical items (such as talit, this boxy thingy, hand wrapphings, velvet casings, mini tehelim books (I still don't get it..), silver wear special clothing and accessories...
    These are not the aspects of Judaism that particularly interest me, but if you want to understand them you can always try Googling for them. I found this rather nice blog talking about seper tehillim which is simply the Hebrew for the Book of Psalms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    ...in my experiance I notice the strong unacceptence(hate) of the jews for anything which is unconventional to Judeism (seeing people not eating cosher,...
    First, a little history. French people come from France, and Americans come from America but the Jewish people don't come from anywhere. They have been a stateless people with no country to call their own for thousands of years up to 1954. Before that they depended on hospitality to be permitted by various rulers, kings, caliphs etc. to stay in a country or a city. After a while the ruler notices that the Jews are propsering and doing well at commerce and banking and sees this as unfair to his own people so kicks the Jews out, only to let them back in twenty years later when his banking industry has collapsed or become corrupt. This pattern repeated for thousands of years across the whole globe (except in Asia, no big Jewish communities in Korea or Vietnam etc.). Also, historically, many rulers "solved" social problems in their own country by taking tough action on the Jews by oppressing them or their religion or banning them or their religion. Hitler was the worst but he was also only the latest in a long line of persecutors of the Jewish people. They understandably have a bit of a chip on their shoulder about this and exactly the same thing was said of black slaves who had to be beaten until they got the right "attitude". Oppression is demeaning and it would be astonishing if the oppressed did not have "attitude" about it.

    Second, a little theology. The Jewish interpretation of the bible (see earlier in this thread) sees them as collectively responsible for saving all of humanity. This is a huge responsibility and if they think one of their number is not pulling his weight they will be harsh on him. In several places in the bible the Hebrews are described as being a "stiffnecked" people which is an archaic way of saying they are stubborn and will not be diverted easily. If the bible says you do this thing X then you do X and if that is unpleasant or inconvenient then so be it, you are doing this for the good of all mankind not just for yourself. They are therefore very hard on themselves and, as you point out, the orthodox Jews will be the most extreme examples of this precisely because they are the ones who believe this the most.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanuka
    I can't see how these people can have such a peaceful goal...
    Do not mistake goals for methods. When we go to war our goal is peace, but we may have to kill a few of the enemy in the process. This is probably an extreme example but the point is that our methods may be quite different from our objective. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
    Everything the laws of the universe do not prohibit must finally happen.
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