Notices
Results 1 to 53 of 53

Thread: All worthy Gods must be able to produce perfect souls.

  1. #1 All worthy Gods must be able to produce perfect souls. 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    All worthy Gods must be able to produce perfect souls.

    In a world where god cannot create perfect souls and natures, like many believe is here, why do so many follow the God of their choice?

    To some, all these Gods are losers who cannot maintain their level of perfection. Back sliding goods all.

    I am sometimes criticized for believing in a God that has not lost His initial perfection that must persist throughout all times.

    I must recognize the perfection of all around me if I am to be able to maintain my belief in the reality of this God. I do. Most do not.

    My God embraces all that He has created, including all Bibles. They all have merit as works of mans expression of what the philosophy is of their God or Gods is. All political philosophies try to do the same thing.

    God‘s name than then be seen as Liberal party, Democratic party, Communist party, ad infinitum.
    As well as Jesus and Jehovah and all others in their fine company.

    If any God is the true God then, by definition, those who wait for mister fix it , cannot be waiting for the true God.

    Strange.

    People have forgotten that the first God was a man.

    For God to be in our image and not some other, means that He wears His true image. He would not start a relationship with man based on deception.

    We are animals. We were less civilized animals at some point in time.
    In the animal world, the God of each animal is one of their own.
    The God of ants is an ant.
    The God of lions is a lion.
    The God of men, must be a man.

    Or His -everlasting- ?- consciousness.

    Whether you follow a God or a Political philosophy, do not take it so seriously.

    Bibles are not meant to be taken seriously. This is known from the fact that talking snakes and other novel ideas are introduced in it’s beginning. Hence the introduction of God as the Word also early in scripture.
    As to other miracles. If God wanted us to believe that reality can somehow have miracles, then He would have left one here, other than all that we see, for us to ponder and wonder where He went wrong in the first place if we are not perfect.

    If there is miracles then we are the best of the miracle stocks.
    This is where we kick in the, God helps those who help themselves, reference.

    The first God was a man first.

    Regards
    DL


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: All worthy Gods must be able to produce perfect souls. 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    All worthy Gods must be able to produce perfect souls.
    Created "souls" or spirits are much like machines they can do only what they are made to do and no more than this. They are by definition tools made for a purpose for how can they be anything more than this? This is the nature of the angels, created with vastly more power and knowledge than than any human beings. But the consequence is that they can never be anything more than servants. As god-like as they might seem to us, they are still limited by their own creation, much like the agents in the film "The Matrix".

    To be sure if all God did was to create angels then he would certainly have a "perfect world". But it would be a sterile world and not much different than living in an empty house for no matter how the robots might strive to serve your interests and tell you how great you are, as extensions of your own will these robot do not really change the fact that you are alone.

    So God created life - living things that make their own choices about what they become, choosing their own purpose and creating their own spirit/soul. God can and did guide and prod them towards the realization of greater potentialities, as a gardner does his plants, a shepherd his sheep or a teacher his children. But such is the risk of parenthood as opposed to merely being a master of robots that children will choose what is banal and self-destructive and thus to become much less than what they are capable of.

    God's justice is that you will have what you value, choose and desire for an eternity, and until you learn to value the risky proposition of life and the inherent sacrifice of control that parenthood will demand of you, your perfect eternity will be a lonely and sterile one.


    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    mitchellmckain

    Thanks for that.

    You indicate that angels are perfect.

    What happened with Satan?
    I believe Satan to be perfect and God's favorite and most important angel. He certainly has a hard job and is shown to be completely under God's control.

    Further, you show God as a father.
    How could a father drown His own creations by the millions and still be seen as a loving entity?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Lucifer was perfect. That perfect he thought he was better than God.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Lucifer was perfect. That perfect he thought he was better than God.
    If Satan did think that then why as in Job, does he follow God's instructions so diligently. What is He waiting for to attempt control of us.
    God's permission?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Satan is a very....VERY.... patient man.

    Unfortuanetely for his philosiphy, that won't work. Because good things come to those who wait. But who knows eh?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Satan is a very....VERY.... patient man.

    Unfortuanetely for his philosiphy, that won't work. Because good things come to those who wait. But who knows eh?
    Satan and his philosophy were created by God and are therefore perfect.

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil is also perfect.
    Good to eat and to give knowledge of God.
    This is the only way to know God.
    Thank God for Eve and her right choice.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Satan and his philosophy were created by God and are therefore perfect.
    Don't delve into what you 'think' God did or did not do. You don't know, and nobody will.

    The tree of knowledge of good and evil is also perfect.
    So what if it is? Man has already eaten from it, when we shouldn't have.

    Good to eat and to give knowledge of God.
    Knowledge of God? Wrong. We were told to not eat from it.

    This is the only way to know God.
    Wrong again. There are many ways to know God, and believe me, knowing Him by disobeying Him is not the way to go.

    Thank God for Eve and her right choice.
    A. It wasn't a choice, she was tempted.
    B. God was not aware of Satans act, or Eve's. Thats what were supposed to know anyway, and believe or not. To know the truth is to do that which is forbidden.


    But then again, who am I to say what is right and wrong, or judge what you believe is right or wrong. If even if they are concepts relevant at all. Believe what you wish my friend...
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Some believe that God Goofed in creating what we percieve.

    Who dares stand before a God and ask Him to fix the mess He created.

    Only those of little faith do not recognize the perfection that God give to all.

    When creating souls, they are perfect. Scripture says that all of His works are perfect. He is not there saying good one, good one, oops, good one, oops.

    God does not do oops.

    You may continue to believe that His contanence wears a blemish. A lie.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    I never said I thought God wasn't/isn't perfect, nor did I say I thought He was/is.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Some believe that God Goofed in creating what we percieve.

    Who dares stand before a God and ask Him to fix the mess He created.

    Only those of little faith do not recognize the perfection that God give to all.

    When creating souls, they are perfect. Scripture says that all of His works are perfect. He is not there saying good one, good one, oops, good one, oops.

    God does not do oops.

    You may continue to believe that His contanence wears a blemish. A lie.

    Regards
    DL
    God is whatever one wants him to be; it's like having a magical comforter.

    Scriptures were written by fallible men.

    IMHO, our meager mind, existence and science…in our vast universe can’t possibly comprehend the unknown dimensions. Upon our physical death our conscience will be transmitted across space to a receiver on the other end. Everything has a purpose. The energy in our conscience will continue upon our demise and be a part of what mankind calls God. http://urantia.us/urantia_united_summation.htm
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    The Urantia Book 2002 Aug 15
    ... religion ...
    "Sponsored by a Uversa Corps of Superuniverse Personalities acting by authority of the Orvonton Ancients of Days. ... Sponsored by a Nebadon Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington. ... These papers were sponsored by a Corps of Local Universe Personalities acting by authority of Gabriel of Salvington. ... This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia Midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director. The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew."

    http://www.crank.net/religion.html
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    The Urantia Book 2002 Aug 15 -The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew."

    http://www.crank.net/religion.html
    But...the "Urantia United Book" http://urantia.us was edited and supplied by a normal, simple being.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    http://www.crank.net/religion.html

    But...the "Urantia United Book" http://urantia.us was edited and supplied by a normal, simple being.
    How does that make it any less kookier?
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    http://www.crank.net/religion.html

    But...the "Urantia United Book" http://urantia.us was edited and supplied by a normal, simple being.
    How does that make it any less kookier?
    Well, my dear Q, you would have to peruse it yourself to make that determination...because...if I told you it was, you still wouldn't know if it is unless you convince yourself thereof...that it is. :wink:
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    You indicate that angels are perfect.
    Perfect? In what way? Only God is perfect in every way. They angels were perfectly made to be exactly what God intended them to be and to do exactly what God intended them to do. And that is the problem. Only tools are like that, not living things.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What happened with Satan?
    The same thing that usually happens when you put an innocent human being in front of a computer - all hell breaks loose. You never knew that computers could do things like that. The problem is that computers do perfectly and exactly only what they are told to do no matter how stupid and so when you put them with ignorant and unpredictable human beings anything can happen. Angels are not quite the same as computers but close enough that the same principles apply.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    I believe Satan to be perfect and God's favorite and most important angel. He certainly has a hard job and is shown to be completely under God's control.
    Yes he was a leader of angels. In fact, I believe that he was a creator of other angels. The job that he and his angels were assigned to was to stimulate and challenge living things in order to break them out of their ruts of complacency and thus grow to meet these challenges.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Further, you show God as a father.
    Yes but only life in general is a child of God, because in it is the potentiality for a parent-child relationship. A bacterium certainly is not a son of God in any real sense for its ability to respond to God is severly limited. Human beings with a direct inheritance of the mind from God was certainly a very different matter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    How could a father drown His own creations by the millions and still be seen as a loving entity?
    What are you going to do when some of your children are abusing and killing others of your children?

    When the purpose of whole project, the purpose of everything, is in danger then you do what it takes save it. That is what it takes to raise living things. Sometimes you have to burn whole fields in order to save the one plant that is not diseased. I hardly think the flood was the first time. Scientist know that there have been mass extinctions in the history of the development of life. That is simply what it takes. But even so, it is pretty clear that God was far from happy about this flood and so he did made sure that it would never be necessary again.

    Thus when the one unified society of mankind was such that the imagination and thoughts of men was only evil continually (which can only mean that the abuse and torment of the innocent was an institution of this human civilization), then there was no hope of redeeming it for it is well known that those raised in abuse will grow up as abusers themselves. Thus, just as the dinosaurs, not being what God had in mind, were doomed to extinction, so also was the one unified human society of the time before the flood. And what did God do immediately afterwards? He stopped people when they sought to prevent disunity. He confused human languages and scattered mankind all over the earth to create a diversity of human thought and culture and so it is quite clear to me that our salavation depends on this diversity of human thought. War may be a heavy price tag but with the possibility of war also comes the possibility of freedom and change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Good to eat and to give knowledge of God.
    The Bible says no such thing, neither that it was good to eat nor that it would give them knowlege. God told them that on the day they "ate of this fruit" that they would die. The serpent (Lucifer) said that they would not die but would become like God. So which was lying?

    Neither were lying. Both were telling the truth. BUT it is a no brainer to guess who it was that was telling the greater truth - based on a greater knowledge and understanding.

    They "ate of the fruit" and they did not die and they did become like God, for they became parents, and thus they had to teach their children the difference between good and evil, as every parent must. Do you think that Adam and Eve did a good job on that?

    They disobeyed God and when God confronted them, Adam blamed God and Eve while Eve blamed Lucifer. Refusing to acknowledge that they did anything wrong and blaiming everything but themselves, they established the ever-present human that refuses to learn from our mistakes. Nothing could be deadlier to our potentiality that this and so God had no choice but to make them live by the consequences of their own work and choices so that they would learn that responsibility cannot be avoided.

    However more importantly, because Adam tried to blame God for his own mistake, God's presence in His life did more harm than good. But their relationship with God was the tree of life and their access to the eternal life of the spirit which God had in store for them. Thus by losing this relationship with God, Adam and Eve died a spiritual death on that day and that meant that second birth by which they would pass from the physical to the spiritual became a death instead and thus by their sin, death had entered the world.

    Meanwhile Adam and Eve had put all the blame on Lucifer, and by their own choice and desire they had created an adversary, someone who could always be blamed for leading them astray from the will of God. But this adversary will only be defeated when we take the responsibility back upon ourselves and learn the lesson that we have only ourselves to blame for our mistakes.



    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Don't delve into what you 'think' God did or did not do. You don't know, and nobody will.
    The Christian zombie marching song:

    Ours is but to obey
    do not think, march all day

    Ours is but to obey
    don't ask questions that's the way

    Ours is but to obey
    do not hear what the scientists say

    Ours is but to obey
    just believe it will be ok

    Ours is but to obey
    crush little minds every day

    Ours is but to obey
    blame all things on the evil "they"

    Ours is but to obey
    those who laugh will surely pay

    Ours is but to obey
    do not think, march all day


    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    A. It wasn't a choice, she was tempted.
    "but he made me kill him"
    "she was asking me to do it with her eyes"
    "it's their fault, they deserved it"

    The habit of excuses started very early in our history.


    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    God was not aware of Satans act, or Eve's.
    There goes anything even remotely like omniscience of God in your theology. Though I do not believe that God's omniscience extends to the future choices of living things. That would normally not apply to Lucifer, except that interaction with human beings changes this. Nevertheless, what Lucifer did was well within his job description, and Adam and Eve had perfectly clear instructions from God to cover the situation.

    Anyway Adam and Eve would never learn anything if God completely prevented them from making any mistakes. A parent simply hopes that his children will learn from their mistakes, one would simply hope that your children admit they were wrong and let you help them to fix the damage. It is just too bad that a flood, numerous wars over 4000 years, and Christ on the cross was required for us to learn that particular lesson.


    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    To know the truth is to do that which is forbidden.
    Hmmm.... That sounds an awful lot like what Lucifer said. I certainly deny this. There is no truth to be found in evil and no truth to be found in acting against the advice of God, except the truth that we create by doing so and that is the truth of our own sin and damnation.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What happened with Satan?
    I believe Satan to be perfect and God's favorite and most important angel. He certainly has a hard job and is shown to be completely under God's control.
    The bible doesn't say much about Satan.

    It does say that his (Satan/Lucifer) loyalty was too willful, in this way: After God created man, He told the angels to bow before man. Satan refused God's command, for Satan vowed to bow before God only. That's not insubordination; it's disobedience. Satan was discharged from the ranks of angels under God.

    Suppose Christ commanded his followers to prostrate themselves before statues of Roman generals, or perhaps busts of Darwin. This is analogous to what God asked of Satan. See, Satan's pure love of God didn't cut it - God desired submission to His authority, not love of His person.

    The O.T. is intensely martial in character. God was always putting people through tests and hazings, striding up and down the line with his sword, demanding obedience.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    Mitchell, thank you for your feedback.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    Mitchell, thank you for your feedback.
    You are welcome. Keep up the good work. Thank God that He does speak with only one voice. Our "ears" are so different and selective that we cannot hear most of them. So keep speaking as God inspires you and perhaps someone will hear God when my words are nothing but noise and nonsense to them (as I am sure they are to most people).
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    4,546
    I'm glad there's another religious person out there that is willing to make some sense. Or try to anyway. But that raises an interesting point. If our method is to be more concise and cautious in our approach, then why do others take such a bizzare way of belief, to which actually contradicts their other beliefs?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Some believe that God Goofed in creating what we percieve.

    Who dares stand before a God and ask Him to fix the mess He created.

    Only those of little faith do not recognize the perfection that God give to all.

    When creating souls, they are perfect. Scripture says that all of His works are perfect. He is not there saying good one, good one, oops, good one, oops.

    God does not do oops.

    You may continue to believe that His contanence wears a blemish. A lie.

    Regards
    DL
    God is whatever one wants him to be; it's like having a magical comforter.

    Scriptures were written by fallible men.

    IMHO, our meager mind, existence and science…in our vast universe can’t possibly comprehend the unknown dimensions. Upon our physical death our conscience will be transmitted across space to a receiver on the other end. Everything has a purpose. The energy in our conscience will continue upon our demise and be a part of what mankind calls God. http://urantia.us/urantia_united_summation.htm
    I agree that at death we all join heaven but as to God being what we all want, no.
    There is no Hell and all will enjoy our hevenly reward.

    God, as the depository of all knowledge cannot help but be Himself and superior to any individual.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    mitchellmckain

    I have a hard time in discussions where the other party can easilly justify killing millions of humans in God's flood and endid His genocidal fit by saying -sorry-.

    God would need to be stupid indeed to set up our history in such a way that His war cry become--Drown the babies first. Their crying annoys me.--

    Any confrontation between a God and humans is so unfair as to be laughable. God would not lower Himself to such a one sided battle.

    Think again if it not too late. If too late, take comfort in talking snakes.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What happened with Satan?
    I believe Satan to be perfect and God's favorite and most important angel. He certainly has a hard job and is shown to be completely under God's control.
    The bible doesn't say much about Satan.

    It does say that his (Satan/Lucifer) loyalty was too willful, in this way: After God created man, He told the angels to bow before man. Satan refused God's command, for Satan vowed to bow before God only. That's not insubordination; it's disobedience. Satan was discharged from the ranks of angels under God.

    Suppose Christ commanded his followers to prostrate themselves before statues of Roman generals, or perhaps busts of Darwin. This is analogous to what God asked of Satan. See, Satan's pure love of God didn't cut it - God desired submission to His authority, not love of His person.

    The O.T. is intensely martial in character. God was always putting people through tests and hazings, striding up and down the line with his sword, demanding obedience.
    Many, of little faith, see God as failing in the production of perfect angels and souls and natures. Scripture says that all of God's works are perfect.
    You show Him goofing on the creation of angels and goofing up on perfect souls.

    Why do you follow a loser. A loser that ends up drowning all of His Perfect souls.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    91
    good cannot exist without evil.

    same with light/dark hot/cold etc, opposites define eachother.

    so your 'perfect soul' would only exist inside something like a rock, or anything else which lacks life.

    let me know if you think of a living thing (flora/fauna) which does not exhibit both "good" and "evil" in some degree.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by redrighthand
    good cannot exist without evil.

    same with light/dark hot/cold etc, opposites define eachother.

    so your 'perfect soul' would only exist inside something like a rock, or anything else which lacks life.

    let me know if you think of a living thing (flora/fauna) which does not exhibit both "good" and "evil" in some degree.
    I like living things.

    Why do you think that God cannot create a perfect soul?

    Why can He not produce a perfect human?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    91
    umm maybe i wasn't clear enough.

    or you disagree with the content of my post.

    but i'll elaborate anyway.

    i'm assuming by 'perfect' you mean 'completely good' or 'completely void of evil'.

    in order to understand, you must see that good and evil are relative concepts.

    good and evil are on opposite ends of a spectrum. they are calculated by their distance from the center of that spectrum.

    one thing seems good, only because another thing seems evil.
    if evil ceases to exist, you have nothing to measure how good something is.

    if it helps to understand, imagine this perfect soul is the only soul in existance.

    if everything is good, how can anything be evil?
    if nothing is evil, how can anything be good?

    good and evil are the same thing. just on different ends of the scale.

    if there is no evil. 'kinda-good' becomes evil by definition, because your not being totally good.

    if there is no good, kinda-evil becomes good, because you could have been totally evil.

    its a simple concept really, im just trying to find different ways of explaining it.

    also, just to complicate things, one persons good can be another persons evil.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Unless God is a loser, I must assume that the conditions we live in are perfect.
    These conditions include evil.
    Evil must have a place within perfection. It is to us to recognize it.
    God Himself said that the tree of knowledge was good. Good enough for me.

    Perfection is not stagnant. It evolves with God over time.

    Perfect must follow God over all times and places. Past, present and future.

    If our souls are to have meaning then we must have an effect on heaven and God when we die..

    He evolves daily. We all contribute to what God is.

    God was a man before He was a God.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    What happened with Satan?
    I believe Satan to be perfect and God's favorite and most important angel. He certainly has a hard job and is shown to be completely under God's control.
    The bible doesn't say much about Satan.

    It does say that his (Satan/Lucifer) loyalty was too willful, in this way: After God created man, He told the angels to bow before man. Satan refused God's command, for Satan vowed to bow before God only. That's not insubordination; it's disobedience. Satan was discharged from the ranks of angels under God.

    Suppose Christ commanded his followers to prostrate themselves before statues of Roman generals, or perhaps busts of Darwin. This is analogous to what God asked of Satan. See, Satan's pure love of God didn't cut it - God desired submission to His authority, not love of His person.

    The O.T. is intensely martial in character. God was always putting people through tests and hazings, striding up and down the line with his sword, demanding obedience.
    Many, of little faith, see God as failing in the production of perfect angels and souls and natures. Scripture says that all of God's works are perfect.
    You show Him goofing on the creation of angels and goofing up on perfect souls.

    Why do you follow a loser. A loser that ends up drowning all of His Perfect souls.

    Regards
    DL
    You're rating individuals, supposed to be perfect in themselves. That's a modern take on perfection - perfection for the individual's sake, everybody equally good, and all that. But man has always been greater than the sum of individuals. We form groups, we interact. In authoritarian hierarchy (a collection of men & angels under God), perfection is submission to the will of a superior above one's self. The perfection is in the hierarchy, in spite of and because of individual faults and mishap.

    In an imperfect world, imperfect beings may yet be perfect in action.

    The O.T. demonstrates, over and over, that submission to God's command, not self-perfection, is the ticket. Doesn't the O.T. stress this enough already?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Pong

    If God wanted sheep He would have created us sheep instead of humans.

    He wanted intellegent people and gave us the tree of good and evil to teach us His philosophy.

    It is much easier to lead and have others follow than to have to chase sheep all day.

    We rejected being sheep the same way Eve did.
    Thank God she followed her God given nature and soul or we would still be in the garden of ignorance.

    Where you want to return?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    The O.T. demonstrates, over and over, that submission to God's command, not self-perfection, is the ticket. Doesn't the O.T. stress this enough already?
    The O.T. was written by fallible men...God need nothing from mankind...your deeds will reap their own rewards.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    The O.T. demonstrates, over and over, that submission to God's command, not self-perfection, is the ticket. Doesn't the O.T. stress this enough already?
    The O.T. was written by fallible men...God need nothing from mankind...your deeds will reap their own rewards.
    If God does not need anything from man then why kill men by the millions?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition
    I'm glad there's another religious person out there that is willing to make some sense. Or try to anyway. But that raises an interesting point. If our method is to be more concise and cautious in our approach, then why do others take such a bizzare way of belief, to which actually contradicts their other beliefs?
    Most of the things that seem contradictory to one person will not seem contradictory to another because of different premises. It is always possible that a person has not seen the contradiction that you see in what he believes but the most likely result of pointing out this contradiction to him will be that he will adopt what premises he needs to make it so that it is not a contradiction. That is the problem with rationality. It is a logical process with an infinity of variables and one can always choose values for these variables to get the answer that you want. This is why all this belief stuff is really about choices and the role of reason in this simply to rationalize these choices after the fact.

    Recognizing this will help you realize that much better the importance of the choices you are making and thus help to make those choices more carefully and for the best of reasons -- I mean of course the best reasons that YOU are able to think of and NOT the best reasons in any absolute sense, implying that only one choice is correct. To be sure, not all choices are equally good, but neither are all choices categorizable as either right or wrong.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    The O.T. demonstrates, over and over, that submission to God's command, not self-perfection, is the ticket. Doesn't the O.T. stress this enough already?
    The O.T. was written by fallible men...God need nothing from mankind...your deeds will reap their own rewards.
    If God does not need anything from man then why kill men by the millions?

    Regards
    DL
    God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source, the energy that provides life and order to the universe.

    Spirituality and theology has intrigued man since the beginning of rational thought. Many propose that religious rationality today is an oxymoron. This may be true since much of the monotheistic belief system is based on superstitions.

    I propose that religious rationality is possible if it is based on transcendology; it asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Pong

    If God wanted sheep He would have created us sheep instead of humans.

    He wanted intellegent people and gave us the tree of good and evil to teach us His philosophy.

    It is much easier to lead and have others follow than to have to chase sheep all day.

    We rejected being sheep the same way Eve did.
    Thank God she followed her God given nature and soul or we would still be in the garden of ignorance.

    Where you want to return?

    Regards
    DL
    Where do you get this? In what bible does God want intelligence more than obedience? He said don't eat from the tree.

    God issues commands and if we disobey he punishes. Very much of the bible is about God's authority, and the consequences of pleasing or angering Him.

    I think it's worth noting that in the same breath man is made in God's "own image" or "likeness" man is to have dominion over animals, and subdue them. There's a real power relationship there! And that is how man is defined: Not in terms of form or intellect, but in terms of authority. Perfect authority.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    The O.T. demonstrates, over and over, that submission to God's command, not self-perfection, is the ticket. Doesn't the O.T. stress this enough already?
    The O.T. was written by fallible men...God need nothing from mankind...your deeds will reap their own rewards.
    If God does not need anything from man then why kill men by the millions?

    Regards
    DL
    God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source, the energy that provides life and order to the universe.

    Spirituality and theology has intrigued man since the beginning of rational thought. Many propose that religious rationality today is an oxymoron. This may be true since much of the monotheistic belief system is based on superstitions.

    I propose that religious rationality is possible if it is based on transcendology; it asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that cannot be proven to be incorrect. It is a doctrine and proclamation that spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    We agree that God cannot work miracles in our reality.

    Why then do you say He did in the beginning of the initial creation.

    If He could then, one would think He can now.

    If God was a man before he was God then that beginning happened long after the initial creation.

    It is impossible to know for sure the attributes of God or His actions before man developed a conciousness to understand them.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    Pong

    If God wanted sheep He would have created us sheep instead of humans.

    He wanted intellegent people and gave us the tree of good and evil to teach us His philosophy.

    It is much easier to lead and have others follow than to have to chase sheep all day.

    We rejected being sheep the same way Eve did.
    Thank God she followed her God given nature and soul or we would still be in the garden of ignorance.

    Where you want to return?

    Regards
    DL
    Where do you get this? In what bible does God want intelligence more than obedience? He said don't eat from the tree.

    God issues commands and if we disobey he punishes. Very much of the bible is about God's authority, and the consequences of pleasing or angering Him.

    I think it's worth noting that in the same breath man is made in God's "own image" or "likeness" man is to have dominion over animals, and subdue them. There's a real power relationship there! And that is how man is defined: Not in terms of form or intellect, but in terms of authority. Perfect authority.
    To have authority man must have intelligence and the knowledge of good and evil.
    If not then any decission that he must make has to be refered to some one wh does have intellegence.

    In your opening remarks thought, you make God sound more like a slave owner than a father figure.

    Then again obey or go to hell is a poor choice for a father to offer his children. Would you talk to yours that way?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source, the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    So, you don't see your statement as a blatant contradiction?
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source, the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    So, you don't see your statement as a blatant contradiction?
    Me bad it should be: God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source of the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Is sending a world wide flood not tampering with nature?

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    Me bad it should be: God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source of the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    The contradiction still exists.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Salt Lake City, UTAH, USA
    Posts
    3,112
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    Me bad it should be: God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source of the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    The contradiction still exists.
    I suppose the contradiction you see is especially the "provides order" part, though I take exception to far more than this.

    I certainly agree that God does not violate the laws of nature, not that He couldn't but that He has no reason to, because as much as these laws limit what we can do they are not nearly so much of an obstacle to God. These laws of nature are part of what God is doing and contradicting them would make no sense.

    But energy does not provide either life or order.

    Order is a product of these laws of nature, and that includes the spontaneous generation of complexity in such processes as evolution.

    Life is a dynamic process that makes use of metastable energies in a flow of energy to a higher entropic state. Since energy is conserved, it is never used up for anything, what is used up is the lower entropy states of energy or what we call useful energy.

    No the contribution of God in the on-going events of the world, if there is such a thing (for Q certainly does not believe that there is), must be something far more subtle even to the point of being rather insubstantial for otherwise the atheist cannot dismiss this as the sort of concidental events that the religious are "only imagining" intention and purpose in it.

    What God provides is in the role of a teacher to stimulate the development of life to its greater potentialities. This stimulus can be quite unpleasant, for this stimulus is well understood in the theory of evolution to include changes in the environment that challenge the abilities of species to survive and even catastrophes that include mass extinctions. But this same sort of role of God is well understood by the religious in their lives as well.
    See my physics of spaceflight simulator at http://www.relspace.astahost.com

    I now have a blog too: http://astahost.blogspot.com/
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    Me bad it should be: God will not violate the laws of nature and therefore has no physical powers in the physical univere...but he/she/it is the source of the energy that provides life and order to the universe.
    The contradiction still exists.
    I suppose the contradiction you see is especially the "provides order" part, though I take exception to far more than this.
    See Physicist Gevin Giorbrans opinion on the Second Order at http://everythingforever.com/

    You beautifully paraphrase that, "Life is a dynamic process that makes use of metastable energies in a flow of energy to a higher entropic state. Since energy is conserved, it is never used up for anything, what is used up is the lower entropy states of energy or what we call useful energy."

    But...IMHO, God guides but does not interfere in the development of the universe. Spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Lemme get this straight, Greatest.

    God creates man, and in that act explicitly defines man as that of His creations with dominion over all the beasts, plants, soil. Subduing nature is man's God-given job description, right?

    Then Adam and Eve live the role, over Eden, just as God arranged.

    So where do you read this
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    To have authority man must have intelligence and the knowledge of good and evil.
    ?

    It's just not in there, AFAIK. Intelligence is irrelevant. Knowledge of good and evil clearly wasn't needed either.

    Dont' get me wrong. I don't believe the bible. But I think we must respect the words as written, and their plain meaning, to talk sense about the bible.

    When God created lions, he made them perfectly lion. Rivers are perfectly river. They flow to the sea and they are good. He made man and gave man a definition, or purpose, which is a sort of rank, above nature. Man is perfectly capable of living that.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by mitchellmckain

    I certainly agree that God does not violate the laws of nature, not that He couldn't but that He has no reason to, because as much as these laws limit what we can do they are not nearly so much of an obstacle to God. These laws of nature are part of what God is doing and contradicting them would make no sense.
    If only to demonstrate he existed. So, a god that does not violate the laws of nature is the same as a god that will not violate the laws of nature and a god that can not violate the laws of nature. Or, quite simply, the laws of nature are not violated because gods don't exist. Contrived explanations that it makes no sense simply makes no sense.

    the atheist cannot dismiss this as the sort of concidental events that the religious are "only imagining" intention and purpose in it.
    Come now, Mitchell, as a physicist, you should understand the principles behind possibilities as opposed to probabilities.

    What God provides is in the role of a teacher to stimulate the development of life to its greater potentialities. This stimulus can be quite unpleasant, for this stimulus is well understood in the theory of evolution to include changes in the environment that challenge the abilities of species to survive and even catastrophes that include mass extinctions. But this same sort of role of God is well understood by the religious in their lives as well.
    The religious don't understand such things and usually relegate everything they can't understand into a category they like to call, "God works in mysterious ways."
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    But...IMHO, God guides but does not interfere in the development of the universe. Spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    Many theists, who ironically don't agree with one another, wouldn't agree with you, either. I could easily step aside from this argument and you'll find plenty of theists who will argue with you on those ideals.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl

    But...IMHO, God guides but does not interfere in the development of the universe. Spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    Many theists, who ironically don't agree with one another, wouldn't agree with you, either. I could easily step aside from this argument and you'll find plenty of theists who will argue with you on those ideals.
    It is based on transcendology. If transcendology is accepted by religions, they become "rational religions". It asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be incorrect.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Lemme get this straight, Greatest.

    God creates man, and in that act explicitly defines man as that of His creations with dominion over all the beasts, plants, soil. Subduing nature is man's God-given job description, right?
    Not quite.
    God was a man before He became God.
    If He is in our immage then He is -exactly- like us. No disquise.
    God began with the conciousness of the first death of man.
    We decided to have dominion, posibly with some comunication from the cosmic couciousness that is God.

    In nature, the God, or leader of various animals is one of those animals. Why should man be the only one to have some other species lead us?
    He would not and does not.

    Then Adam and Eve live the role, over Eden, just as God arranged.

    So where do you read this
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    To have authority man must have intelligence and the knowledge of good and evil.
    I do not read it. It is self evident.
    Can a non intelligent man with no knowledge of what is good or what is bad for the environment guide it. Of course not.

    It's just not in there, AFAIK. Intelligence is irrelevant. Knowledge of good and evil clearly wasn't needed either.

    Dont' get me wrong. I don't believe the bible. But I think we must respect the words as written, and their plain meaning, to talk sense about the bible.
    All Bibles have value but the Christian Bible clearly tells us not to read it literally by introducing an impossible talking snake right at the beginning. Common sense. Right?

    When God created lions, he made them perfectly lion. Rivers are perfectly river. They flow to the sea and they are good. He made man and gave man a definition, or purpose, which is a sort of rank, above nature. Man is perfectly capable of living that.
    We are part of nature. We cannot be above it when we rely on it for everything.
    We are the top of the food chain but always within nature.

    The Bible like the tree of knowledge contains both good and evil.

    The flood was certainly evil if it were to have hapened.
    The love of God is certainly good.

    Loving our sons is good yet we are to stone unruly sons if we follow scripture.
    Fundamentals say that this is OK but I have yet to hear of anyone killing unruly sons. Are Christians not following the Bible. No. Thank God.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    the Christian Bible clearly tells us not to read it literally by introducing an impossible talking snake right at the beginning. Common sense. Right?
    The bible doesn't speak to an audience who get hung up on the impossibility of talking snakes.

    For analogy: You won't understand the Epic of Gilgamesh with ecology values revolting at the hero's destruction of a forest. And so what if Ra carries our sun across the sky and through the underworld in a boat, vehicular mechanics is not the point.

    I try to understand the bible as people would have understood it, in its time.

    If you believe the bible, in your unprecedentedly liberal reinterpretation, then what of those unsophisticates before us who must have got it all wrong? Those millenia of Jews and Christians who did believe talking snakes possible.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49 The Bible 
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon.html

    The Bible being the ultimate authority, much less literal truth didn't arise until around the time of the Reformation, or Revolt, as it's called by Catholics; and, even then, for only a very small minority of the world's Christians. The custodians of the torch of Christianity didn't come to believe in the Bible as the literal Word of God for more than a thousand years after the Council of Nicea and only a minuscule fraction of all the Christians who have ever lived have regarded it as so being. The only thing ever asserted within scripture to be the literal, written Words of God are what Moses carried down from the mountaintop. We now have millions of people who are realizing, for the first time, that the Bible wasn't carved in stone by the hand of God in the manner of the 10 Commandments.

    The Bible itself doesn't claim to be the primary source of God's truth, while it does offer support for Peter's Church. Catholics believe that God reveals his truths to the faithful through his church, which goes back to Peter. As Peter knew Jesus on a first-hand, personal level and as the earliest Gospel was written long after the death of Jesus by a scribe who was not a first hand witness, then there is some undeniable merit in the Catholic position that God's will is revealed through his church rather than through a book assembled many years after the fact.

    http://gbgm-umc.org/UMW/bible/cea.stm
    Constantine had a huge role in the Council of Nicea. He was the one that called the council in the first place! And yes, there were Christians at the time that didn't believe that Jesus was a God. (Arianism) The council of Nicea (and the Nicean Creed created there) put that controversy to rest. Yes, the Council of Nicea did promote Jesus to a Deity of Christianity officially. Constantine wanted a unified religion based in reality to preside over. That’s why he called the Council, sent his 80 year old mother looking for ‘relics’ and why bishops & future Holy Roman Emperors were so prodigious in stamping out any thing that hadn’t been blessed by the Council of Nicea. Who knows how much information we have lost about early Christianity by those zealots.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  51. #50  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    675
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    the Christian Bible clearly tells us not to read it literally by introducing an impossible talking snake right at the beginning. Common sense. Right?
    The bible doesn't speak to an audience who get hung up on the impossibility of talking snakes.

    For analogy: You won't understand the Epic of Gilgamesh with ecology values revolting at the hero's destruction of a forest. And so what if Ra carries our sun across the sky and through the underworld in a boat, vehicular mechanics is not the point.

    I try to understand the bible as people would have understood it, in its time.

    If you believe the bible, in your unprecedentedly liberal reinterpretation, then what of those unsophisticates before us who must have got it all wrong? Those millenia of Jews and Christians who did believe talking snakes possible.
    Then as now I hope those that do believe such are few.

    I believe that the scriptured that we have were offered as a start to debate. not meant to be the final world. Bibles, all Bibles have value for thought but are not to be taken seriously. It is the lesson that it wants to teach that we shouls be looking for . The lesson not miracles is what is important.

    As to the ancients, they were damn near as sofisticated a today. Most of the political systems that we use today were developed even prior to the Bibles.

    In real terms those systems are identical to Bibles in the sense that they both try to give us a better way to live life. They are all Gods in this sense.

    Regards
    DL
    Reply With Quote  
     

  52. #51 Re: The Bible 
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,305
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    The custodians of the torch of Christianity didn't come to believe in the Bible as the literal Word of God for more than a thousand years after the Council of Nicea and only a minuscule fraction of all the Christians who have ever lived have regarded it as so being.
    Ah. Thanks, I'll take your word for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest I am
    It is the lesson that it wants to teach that we shouls be looking for . The lesson not miracles is what is important. .
    I agree.

    I think it helps to get into "primitive headspace" here. People would have understood humanity in terms alien to us today. For example the ongoing discussion in another thread, about when a fetus becomes a human being, would seem bizarre and probably pointless to early Christians (although they valued "seed" and sons very highly ). Likewise we today have trouble coming to terms with much of the bible.

    I've already said that I think the O.T. dwells largely on arbitrary power and the virtue of obedience to that. I think that such a state, working with military order, represents the Old Testament's vision of "perfection".
    Reply With Quote  
     

  53. #52  
    (Q)
    (Q) is offline
    Forum Isotope (Q)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2,659
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    It is based on transcendology. If transcendology is accepted by religions, they become "rational religions". It asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be incorrect.
    Religions make assert whatever fabrications they want to get people to believe their nonsense. No religions have ever been substantiated by science, or even reason and rationale. And, it is up to the theists to validate their religions, not for everyone else to prove them incorrect. The burden of proof is on the claimant.
    Religious Fundamentalist Club - Member #1.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  54. #53  
    Forum Junior kkawohl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    California
    Posts
    226
    Quote Originally Posted by (Q)
    Quote Originally Posted by kkawohl
    It is based on transcendology. If transcendology is accepted by religions, they become "rational religions". It asserts that truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be incorrect.
    Religions make assert whatever fabrications they want to get people to believe their nonsense. No religions have ever been substantiated by science, or even reason and rationale. And, it is up to the theists to validate their religions, not for everyone else to prove them incorrect. The burden of proof is on the claimant.
    That is why....spiritual transcendence and spiritual interaction, if one believes this to be an actuality, could only be possible between the spiritual existence and the spirit of man. Supernatural acts performed by physical or spiritual beings in the physical universe are not capable of existing or transpiring.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •